Case Study – Low Expectations

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I’ve often been quoted of the following – “Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace” – and at the risk of piling on to what I initially knew would be the click-bait du jour of the blogosphere this week, I was reminded of this quote as I read through the now infamous spreadsheet of sexual excuses as compiled by a 26 year old husband for a 26 year old wife.

You’ll have to excuse my tardiness in posting this week, but I wanted to allow this story some time to develop before I threw my hat in the ring. My expectation was that most takes on this sex denial log would be from a unilaterally feminine-primary perspective and predictably ridicule the husband for his efforts while absolving his wife of any culpability for her ‘reasons’ for not wanting to get after it with him.

Needless to say I wasn’t disappointed, but as an added bonus we got an indignant insight into what a feminine-primary culture expects men not to expect in marriage (spoiler alert, PUAs called this long before Feministing did).

There’s a lot to unpack here, so I’ll begin with the most obvious issues first.

The most glaring omission I’ve read in most of the posts regarding this couple so far is that, in a blatant effort to lessen the negative impact on the wife, very few bloggers have included the entire Reddit post to draw conclusions from:

 

Zreanes

The first thing we have to do is a bit of Red Pill math to understand the context in which this situation takes place. We have a couple that married young by modern standards. Both are 26 and have been married for 2 years (i.e. married at 24).

Furthermore they’d been monogamous for 3 years prior, thus they met and paired up at the age of 21.

This is as much as we know about their history, but in context we’re looking at a guy who in all likelihood married a 24 year old girl for the same feminine conditioned, idealistic reasons he had for pairing up with her at 21.

I don’t have any evidence to support the idea that this guy married his wife due to religious convictions, but I don’t think it’s too far a stretch to presume they had somewhat regular sex in the 3 years prior to marrying.

I also can’t confirm that either party had sex with anyone else prior to their meeting at 21, but if we consider that both likely had average sexual experiences between 18-21 we’re only talking about a window of around 4 years in which either had any opportunity to experience anyone else before they met.

I’m establishing this because if I had to speculate, both are the husband and wife are operating from Adolescent Social Skill Sets, and thus have no real frame of adult reference learned through dating (LTR or STR) with which they can base their expectations in marriage.

However, as we’ll see in a moment, a fem-centric culture is only too willing to fill in the blanks of that lack of social reference for them.

Spreadsheet Guy

A woman’s imagination is the single most useful tool in your Game arsenal.

Every technique, every casual response, every gesture, intimation and subcommunication hinges on stimulating her imagination. Competition anxiety relies on it. DHV (demonstrating higher value) relies on it. Sexual tension (‘gina tingles) relies on it. Call it “Caffeinating the Hamster” if you will, but stimulating a woman’s imaginings is the single most potent talent you can learn in any context of a relationship (LTR, STR, ONS, Plate Spinning.)

Spreadsheet Guy is learning this now no doubt. He’s done what most men do: attempt to litigate with evidence and deductively solve his problem by appealing to his wife’s reason with a token effort to enforce his ‘being in the right’ by exposing her to a marginal amount of dread.

What he fails to account for is that even if she responds with more frequent sex, any sex they do have will be the compromised result of her negotiated obligation, not her genuine, motivated desire.

The frame you enter into monogamy/marriage with sets the tone for your future relationship. Spreadsheet Guy is simply following the male deductive approach to problem solving and making appeals to his wife’s reason by graphically showing her (and now all of the internet) the evidence of his correctness.

Why Women Can’t ‘Just Get It‘

Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women.

It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.

I can’t fault the guy for his effort; he simply hasn’t learned that women never want full disclosure of anything – and particularly anything that shines an unflattering light on them.

Nothing is more gratifying for a woman than to believe she’s figured out a man using her mythical ‘feminine intuition’. Spreadsheet Guy doesn’t give her the option to use her imagination and solve the puzzle – just like most guys who believe the trope that ‘open communication is the key to a good relationship®’ he spells it out for her in no uncertain terms – and with a marginal amount of above-board Dread he expects (I presume) the problem with her sexual frequency will be solved for him.

From The Desire Dynamic:

From a male perspective, and particularly that of an uninitiated beta male, negotiation of desire seems a rational solution to the problem. Men tend to innately rely on deductive reasoning; otherwise known as an “if then” logic stream.

The code is often something like this: I need sex + women have the sex I want + query women about their conditions for sex + meet prerequisites for sex = the sex I want.

One very important element of Spreadsheet Guy’s actions that needs to be understood is the convenient comparisons being made in regard to the transactional nature of sex, and the expectations men (and to a lesser degree women) place on their conditions for sex.

Of course the first feminist retort is that men should never have any expectation under any circumstance of receiving the gift of a woman’s sexuality for any reason other than that she wants to fuck him.

Naturally this becomes problematic under the auspices of marriage wherein a man’s default presumption is that he is, if not entitled to, then certainly can expect to some extent that his wife will have sex with him.

This situation represents an illustration of the great schism between the old order social contract of marriage, wherein a man had a reasonable expectation of sex with his wife, and the new feminine-primary order wherein a man has absolutely no right, expectation or privilege to his wife’s sexuality.

Unfortunately for men the great deception of this schism serves the Feminine Imperative in that it still conveniently convinces men that they can expect sex while simultaneously shaming them for the expectation that feminine-primacy tells them they should expect.

This double-speak is necessary to insuring the certainty of long-term security needs that women’s dualistic sexual strategy demands.

Consider Choreplay: 5 years ago the same female author encourages men to do more dishes and help a woman out with her domestic chores because “nothing’s sexier” than a man who ‘shares’ the housework.

Translation: Perform these tasks and you will be rewarded with the “unadulterated lust” your wife has been reluctant to deliver – i.e. negotiated desire.

5 years later…“Households with a more traditional gender division of labor report higher sexual frequency than households with less traditional gender divisions of labor,”

So the only conclusion we can really draw from this is that women encourage exactly the transactional mentality about sex that they now complain all men feel they are “owed”.

Spreadsheet Guy was caught in this presumptive trap – prior to marriage he’s sold the idea that he can expect his wife to be sexual with him on a regular basis, but only after he’s taken measures to prove that his wife isn’t upholding her end of the marriage bargain is he told that he in fact has absolutely no privilege to his wife’s sexuality under any circumstance – and furthermore that she holds unilateral control over his own sexual fulfillment under penalty of breach of (marriage) contract.

Spreadsheet Wife

As I began earlier, an entire social support network is more than ready to fill in the blanks left by Spreadsheet Wife’s lack of social reference.

The most obvious form of this comes from the comments and encouragement of women and feminized men affirming her prefabricated understanding of ‘what sex should be after marriage’.

Our sex life HAS tapered in the last few months, but isn’t that allowed?

If you need confirmation of the double-speak about sexual entitlement I outlined above you’ll find it in the words of the same woman before and after she’s married.

This is yet one more ready-made social convention for women to default to after she’s secured the provider-male her hypergamy demands in marriage. A woman’s sexual appetites are expected to “taper” off and she should be “allowed” this tapering and have a man understand and accept this fact.

Once again, The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:

For one sex’s sexual strategy to become realized, the other sex’s strategy must be compromised or abandoned entirely.

And again, the Roissy / Heartist Prime Directive of Feminism:

The goal of feminism is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality

After all the back and forth I’ve been reading about this spreadsheet I think it’s time for men to come to terms with how the social contract that used to be marriage has fundamentally changed.

Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace.

The advantages of being single and indefinitely dating non-exclusively (Spinning Plates) or stringing along a series of short term monogamous affairs far outweigh the risks of a lifetime of marriage in which no man should ever expect sex in terms of either genuine desire or even uninspired obligation sex.

In other words, men are entirely powerless to effect any degree of control over their sex lives under the auspices of a now feminine-primary definition of marriage. The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.

In Appreciation I went into detail about how women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate a feminine reality; this situation is a prime example of this.

Women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the risks a man must assume in unilaterally relinquishing any degree of control he might’ve been able to realize over his own sex life – and never to expect he could ever even have that control.

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[…] Case Study – Low Expectations […]

Jeremy
Guest

Hrm, lets see Sunshine Mary and others try to disagree with the last three paragraphs now that you’ve fleshed out that concept in more detail.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

To my reading of it, this is a different iteration of Rollo telling all of us, in so many words, ‘I was simply lucky to marry someone great who still does and will continue to elude the virulent feminist stain of median American women, given that I did marry so many years ago, before I came to understand all these social machinations. But y’all younger guys are absolutely fucking retarded if you marry today, as I did years ago.’ Key quote in this piece: “The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex… Read more »

Stuttie
Guest

If spreadsheet wife is using those predictably lame excuses at age 26 after only a few years of marriage, imagine the excuse spreadsheet when a kid arrives on the scene lol

Rollo – After unplugging via your blog, the most powerful red pillism every man needs to understand is “you can’t negotiate genuine desire”.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

One more comment on the woman’s post – as posted in JPEG here: “We spent all spring renovating our new house. At my job I was given nearly double my usual workload after some of my colleagues were laid off. I gained some weight in the winter and have been busting my ass at the gym to get rid of it.” I’ll translate that: “He spent all spring renovating our new house, doing light construction, re-doing a bathroom, putting in a new living room floor – all kinds of skilled manual labor…while I cleaned once in a while and heated… Read more »

Will
Guest
Will

So are you saying that once a man marries a girl the realization of sexual strategy occurs and this sex life will undoubtedly decline? To ensure a good sex life in marriage you have to enter it with the right alpha frame. But is that even possible to ‘enter marriage in an alpha way’? Marriage has characteristically been know to be beta by modern society. So basically, no matter what your sex life will plummet when you marry….? You just gotta know sub communication and game as a man to keep it somewhat alive occasionally? But then how do you… Read more »

melmoth
Guest
melmoth

That’s it boys. Final straw. Time to swap out Demi Moore for the Demimonde. Dust off the passports.

donalgraeme
Guest

Assuming that sex is your primary goal in life, or one of them anyways, and assuming a materialist/non-religious worldview, you are entirely correct, Rollo, that marriage is for fools. While I would not, and do not, abet or condone fornication, I can with all honesty say that a man who isn’t religious should never marry under the present legal and cultural regime. Speaking as a fairly devout Christian (at least by my estimation), I can say that Christians are between a real rock and a hard place in the present environment. Marriage is the only licit place for sex, and… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

Neat dictionary of Game terms for those of you new to Red Pill and those needing a refresher.

http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/p/masculexicon.html

M Simon
Guest

donalgraeme
July 24th, 2014 at 1:50 am

Marriage is for children. The first mate was 8 1/2 months pregnant when we made it legal. And yes – the child was intentional. My choice. And other than the usual difficulties with women I’m not sorry.

Lord Highbrow
Guest
Lord Highbrow

“Of course the first feminist retort is that men should never have any expectation under any circumstance of receiving the gift of a woman’s sexuality for any reason other than that she wants to fuck him.”

Rollo, I would add to this the following:

Naturally, she is entitled to protection and provisioning from him (even after divorce). So what we are seeing here is the classic ‘give and take’. Where he gives and she takes.

M Simon
Guest

She says: “I’m an emotional wreck. What am I supposed to do?” Bond with him. Sex every 3 days or oftener helps. A lot. You can look it up.

In another post’s comment thread some one asked me what I meant by bonded. This was my reply:

http://therationalmale.com/2014/07/15/separating-values/comment-page-3/#comment-47508

M Simon
Guest

One needs a biological perspective on all this. For women sex means children. Maybe not in the current reality but it is hardwired in. That is the natural reality. So she is going to want as little sex as possible to string the guy along. Even if her hypergamy is not front and center.

If her hypergamy is front and center you are going to want to be as alpha as possible so she takes the easy way out and has it with you.

Lost Young Guy
Guest
Lost Young Guy

Rollo and others: What does it mean when a girl not only wants to have unprotected sex with you but she also wants you to cum inside her? I know the obvious answer is she wants a baby but hear me out here. On her most fertile days she wants me to dump my load in her but yet, she never initiates the sex. I know she doesn’t have a genuine desire for me because she hardly gives me bj and she hardly does anything when we bang. She just lays there and takes it. The only time she’s really… Read more »

gregg
Guest
gregg

“The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.” Truth! I watch closely the lives of my married friends in their late thirties or early forties. Not only they sleep with wives I would not fuck even after 6 shots of Jim Beam. In addition, theese land whales are using sex to manipulate and control them! Do this, slave for me, perform..and you might be allowed to fuck my ugly, worn out body!? Of course you are… Read more »

anotheronetakesthepillkesthepill
Guest

Sex is allowed to taper. Weight is allowed to be gained. Typical excuses from lazy people.

“Houses are allowed to deteriorate” should be the answer from beta-husband when she wanted that renovation.
And what about publishing the excel file on reddit? Of course she needed support from teamwoman cause she CAN’T be wrong

M Simon
Guest

Lost Young Guy
July 24th, 2014 at 2:55 am

Find out if she has been raped or otherwise sexually molested. The “laying there” is often a symptom. That kind of girl needs a LOT of training. Generally not worth the effort.

M Simon
Guest

gregg
July 24th, 2014 at 2:57 am

It is unusual but for some men looks don’t matter a lot. I never had a problem getting 7s, 8s, 9s, and the occasional 10. Best girlfriend I ever had was around a 3. Very sweet. Kind hearted. Everything you could want in a LTR. Look up the 50s song “Make an ugly woman your wife”. A lot of truth there.

vinay3543
Guest

Ask your married guy friends about sex frequency prior to marriage and post marriage (and especially post parentage), and the honest ones will tell you it dries up significantly once the ring is on the finger and the wedding day is now a memory.

Any man living in the real world needs to acknowledge this is more than a coincidence. Any man must ask himself what the true motivations are for his potential future wife being with him.

http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2013/12/here-comes-bride.html

troyfrancis
Guest

Great analysis as always. I wonder, though, if the spreadsheet was really a genuine attempt to ‘negotiate’, or simply a hand grenade thrown in anger? I suspect the latter, because I find it very hard to believe that even the most blue pill of guys would seriously expect some sort of capitulation on the back of it. This is rather compounded by the fact he hasn’t returned her calls. Perhaps he’s reached the end of his tether and he simply doesn’t care what she thinks of him or his behavior anymore, however petty. Hopefully for his sake he’s seen the… Read more »

gregg
Guest
gregg

@Simon Make an ugly woman your wife. Truth? Hehehe, nice trap for betas and especially gammas with no experience in women. And they are actually buying it…in millions. Every chick has to catch a slave. Pretty ones have much more leverage then our little ugly baby. So she tries to be an angel in acquisitive mode – when she is trying to catch a slave. It is a great tool in her arsenal – to show that she is such a “good, kind hearted” being. And she, as the superior manipulator, usually succeeds and traps a man 2-4 points above… Read more »

Flip
Guest
Flip

You can see why Islam has developed some of the mechanisms it has to deal with the nature of females. A man is allowed to take up to four wives, the threat of which keeps the current wife on her toes, and men are allowed to easily initiate divorce (but don’t in practice) while it is difficult for a woman to get a unilateral divorce.

Thug
Guest
Thug

Married 16 years (together 18), and we still have sex every 4-5 days. That being said, it did slow down a few years ago to weekly, which is where i did my searching and found the manosphere. Long story short, i brushed up my act a little (thanks in particular Roosh and Rollo for red pill erudition), and it’s back to where i like it. I told the girl early on that if she did’nt meet my needs on a regular basis then i would get them met elsewhere. So not sure if i agree with the assertion of men… Read more »

Thug
Guest
Thug

@gregg Amen to that. If you have to put up with all the crazy that is woman then at least pick one that is hot and show’s you that she knows how to stay skinny.

Gaijin
Guest
Gaijin

The “you can’t negotiate sexual desire” is truly one of the biggest TRP truths I have read. For those who are not married, I would counsel you that setting the frame from the beginning is vital; but, maintaining frame is where the real “effort” is. Over 10 years of marriage has shown me that. At times where I did not keep the frame and my wife set it, sex was nonexistent and if it did happen… Boring. Everything in a single man’s game is needed in a LTR. I genuinely feel bad for Spreadsheet guy and just think how long… Read more »

dave
Guest

Pay attention to the line about wife busting her ass in the gym. Is hubby doing the same? Or is she taking in the sights, thinking that she can do better? Is she being approached by one of the players that targets married women? Regardless of her initial reaction, hubby can appear much less attractive than ripped, confident gym dude.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Not just a homerun, this article made it to orbit. This particular doublethink is the epicenter of the feminine-imperative brain cancer ruining all relationships for everyone:
“A woman’s sexual appetites are expected to “taper” off and she should be “allowed” this tapering and have a man understand and accept this fact.”

jf12
Guest
jf12

re: “The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.”

True. All true.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Will asks a pertinent question, possibly with some wistful hoping “But is that even possible to ‘enter marriage in an alpha way’?”

The answer is, sadly, no. It is absolutely completely impossible, currently.

zodak
Guest

i don’t think this guy was trying to negotiate or even trying dread, he just wanted to win an argument. it seems more like they had an argument (not the first) where he said “you always say ‘no'” & she responded “i don’t say ‘no’ that much, you’re exagerating” & he lost the argument. so he compiled the metrics just to win because he was sick of losing that argument. & i don’t think he was trying dread, i think he went radio silent because he was mad as hell & wasn’t going to take it anymore. i just hope… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

from the reddit post: “I pretty much stayed inside my hotel the whole evening”

Pretty much.

david
Guest
david

Gee….what does this mean for actual christian virgin guys waiting for marriage? It’s strange…but christian women don’t actually prefer virgin men. unfortunately, their claimed beliefs cannot overcome that smell of an unwanted man.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

WHY YOU’RE NEVER GETTING MARRIED – Redonkulas.com: http://youtu.be/K1AW4AJDJb4

Morpheus
Guest
Morpheus

and at the risk of piling on to what I initially knew would be the click-bait du jour of the blogosphere this week, I was reminded of this quote as I read through the now infamous spreadsheet of sexual excuses as compiled by a 26 year old husband for a 26 year old wife. Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace. The advantages of being single and indefinitely dating non-exclusively (Spinning Plates) or stringing along a series of short term monogamous affairs far outweigh the risks of a lifetime of marriage in which no man should ever expect sex… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

gregg
July 24th, 2014 at 5:35 am

There may be a lot in what you say about ugly women. I don’t know. I married an 8 or 9.

jf12
Guest
jf12

re: prize. By removing men’s power in marriage, no man ever gets to be the prize. Hence, always try higher on SMV. A pretty princess is always better than an ugly princess.

Matt
Guest
Matt

Well, just make sure that the circumstances that were present at initial attraction continue when it comes to marrying a really hot women. The higher above your looks you punch, the more important your external circumstances (read, wealth, income, status) become for the continuation of the relationship. In other words, one would assume your relationship would have more staying power in rough circumstances if you were both equally hot(or above her) in the looks department, and therefore didn’t depend as much on income or other compensating factors. There’s a reason women divorce their husbands after losing their jobs. They were… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

Another one for the ages, I saw this kerfuffle in the femisphere and of course the female reaction was predictable – I guess it’s a good sign that I’m no longer shocked. I also feel no compulsion to engage with women on a subject like this as I know there is no point – they don’t care about men’s needs or how they see the bargain of marriage. I got the message and have adapted accordingly. Two things jump out at me: 1. In her commentary she immediately brings up the recent purchase of a house. How much do you… Read more »

Lost Young Guy
Guest
Lost Young Guy

@ M Simon. That makes sense. You know, I was thinking that because she does seem to hold a grudge against men but then again It could just be her Alpha Widow kicking in. She did tell me once that she will never forgive what her father did to her, but I never pressed on what she meant by that because I thought she was just venting her family issues at the time. A couple of days ago she also told me, “You remind me a lot of my father.” Now that I look back at this stuff, it’s about… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Glenn, re: “The therapist gave us “exercises” where we were to be in bed naked together and touch each other and be intimate with each other but not be sexual. Of course, this was a disaster.”

It used to be amusing to me as a bluepiller that ALL of women’s advice regarding sex involved less sex. It has long ceased to be amusing.

Klaus Bon Jovi
Guest
Klaus Bon Jovi

Rollo,
Honestly, I think your posts are getting better every week. Keep going!

Jeremy
Guest

@Glenn …In her commentary she immediately brings up the recent purchase of a house. How much do you guys want to bet that she began to reduce sexual activity once the house was purchased? I’m sure the guy didn’t just start recording this stuff out of the blue, it must have changed pretty notably and gone on for a couple of months before he got angry and decided to track it. And why wouldn’t she? He’s served one of the primary purposes a man has for her in her life. That is, of course, building the lifestyle she believes she… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ Rollo – I don’t expect you to confirm or deny this but I’ve always assumed that there is much more to what goes on in your marriage than you reveal here – which is wise. I can imagine the tightrope you must walk with the women in your life at times given what you say here. But what I’m certain of is that you employ what you present here to the best of your ability. It’s also true that life is a series of tradeoffs and like any man in a marriage, the choices available to you are not… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

So for a guy, one question is do you try to lock down the hottest possible woman you can (who most likely knows it) where maybe you a lower SMV, or do you go for the woman who is below you in SMV so that you are always in the “prize” position? Interesting. And there may be something to it. But I always had the attitude that I was the prize. My son’s are very tall and smart. And #1 daughter is also tall and very smart. So maybe my juice was worth going after. But of course the mate… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

Lost Young Guy
July 24th, 2014 at 11:53 am

Excellent! I took one of those on as a project once. And I helped some. But it seems like that for neither love nor money was she ever willing to give up her grudges. And yes. I got told more than once “you remind me of my father”. What you will find if you don’t bail is that she will take out all her father anger on you. Very unpleasant.

M Simon
Guest

We saw a therapist about it – female of course – and the whole thing was put on my shoulders. The first mate is always pulling that shite on me. I tell her, “Go ahead. Tell me how it turns out. I don’t need one. It’s you.” Well that “we need therapy” crap just dissolves in the face of that. Because what it is really about is, “I’m going to get some help to gang up on you.” I’m not buying it. If I have issues that I think need fixing (and I have from time to time) I fix… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Guest
Professor Von Hardwiggs

American women? Please. Asian women are worse, they can actually control the vagina supply due to China having far more men than women, and European women look a lot better than American women, but they are just as devious. Most of the older men I know of, the fathers of my friends complain of the same. They haven’t gotten laid in 20 years or more. Negotiating attraction and all that jazz about what makes women sexually desire men – Meh. Do like the Dutch. Go to a brothel, get laid, go home and be happy. The only power women have… Read more »

greenlander
Guest
greenlander

+1 Rollo. Another one hit out of the park.

Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Obvious
Guest
Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Obvious

Whatever we say about Mr. Spreadsheet, he intended his message just for her. Interesting no one’s called that the only way she could possibly “prevail” over him in light of his radio silence was to PUT IT ON THE WEB for EVERYONE to see. Which yes, gets the you-go-grrls on her side, that’ll show him, now he’ll obey, you little turd, and don’t ever do it again. Now fix the gutters. But of course in Redditing this she is exposing herself as well: this is how I elect to treat my husband. Isn’t that allowed? But he’s not allowed to… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ Wiggs – Well said, but here’s a thought. What are these men thinking? I had too much self-respect – long before the Red Pill – to put up with my erstwhile wife cutting me off from sex. She chose to exit the marriage and it was also pre-Red Pill so I handled none of it to my advantage – but still. At 28, good looking, making 90k with 200 in sight (and achieved in short order), smart, funny and socially dominant, i literally had hot young women throwing themselves at me. I remember this beautiful 21 yr old Puerto… Read more »

Retrenched
Guest
Retrenched

Any doubts about whether or not modern marriage is an entirely fem-centric institution, in which women have rights but no responsibilities while men have responsibilities but no rights, should be totally dispelled by now. Any man who doesn’t see this must be self-blinded by his foolish idealism, really. The thing is, no man needs to get married to NOT get laid. A man can NOT get laid all by himself, much more cheaply than he can NOT get laid with a wife. And he won’t have to put up with bitching, bossiness, nagging or temper tantrums either. I think for… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Obvious Whatever we say about Mr. Spreadsheet, he intended his message just for her. Interesting no one’s called that the only way she could possibly “prevail” over him in light of his radio silence was to PUT IT ON THE WEB for EVERYONE to see. Which yes, gets the you-go-grrls on her side, that’ll show him, now he’ll obey, you little turd, and don’t ever do it again… I mentioned this in a comment on ROK. This woman who posted her marital problems on Reddit should absolutely be shamed into oblivion. By doing so she is… Read more »

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

How long can this situation go on.

How long

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

The catholic church was correct not to ordain women.
The ordination of women was the window that Gay marriage came through.

George
Guest
George

Rollo, I’ve managed construction projects for over 30 years, own a construction company for six now. One thing I have learned is that people will always perform at what ever level you allow, to whatever standard you set and maintain (as long as the requirements are realistic). The less you expect the less you get. The more unacceptable behavior you allow, the more unacceptable behavior you will experience. Real tangible phenomena shape history. Ideology rarely does. Women have not realistically benefitted from the “feminist imperative”. The REAL benefits women enjoy are derived from mans ingenuity, creativity and ALL HUMAN industriousness.… Read more »

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

Fought to ensure that they are treated like helpless babies. Feminism IS the “Patriarchy” it decries.

OUr fathers should have stopped this

M Simon
Guest

Nathan
July 24th, 2014 at 2:20 pm

How long can this situation go on.

How long

Until it dies out. Literally. The kids are not reproducing.

PowerProject
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PowerProject

The spreadsheet guy doesn’t realize he’s just a safety net… just in case she won’t be able to secure some alpha seed before she hits the wall. Until then, he can merely expect the occasional checkup-sex.

Sauron
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Sauron

@Glenn… God damn dude that is seriously depressing. I’m still shocked by how manipulative women can be. She would stay in a marriage she hated for 5 extra years, just so you wouldn’t have the satisfaction of no longer believing the end of the marriage wasn’t your fault. Mind boggling. @troyfrancis “Perhaps he’s reached the end of his tether and he simply doesn’t care what she thinks of him or his behavior anymore…” Yep, that’s right about where I am. I really just don’t care anymore. Don’t care if she cheats, don’t even bother trying to find out (I’ve suspected… Read more »

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

The way to enjoy sex throughout your marriage, is to marry a broad who is into sex as much as you are. Sometimes called a “slut”. Just be forwarned that you may have to accept the fact that she may still like the occasional taste of someones else dick. If you can put up with that, then life can be good. (Just make sure you are one of these first – Sociosexually unrestricted – http://spp.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/06/03/1948550614537308.abstract

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

Another thing, it is normal, even if you game the shit out of your wife the whole marriage, for ennui to set in. At that point you have a few options, a couple, for the religious is to get on with the spiritual path of marriage. Move beyond the physical into the love of God. For those that want to bang til the day they die, do an abrupt change in your life. And I will leave that decision up to you!

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

Morph – ” As you say,marriage is no insulation from the SMP. In marriage 2.0, the competition is always ongoing even if you do not realize or accept it.”

Oh so true. We now have a majority of “Bro’s” who put the “Ho’s” before the Bro’s.

The thirst runs deep my friends!

Glenn
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Glenn

@ George – ‘No matter how much bullshit you write’ (as you so emphatically told me) you have no idea what you are talking about. And if you don’t think that your grandma likely got the hots for the relatively high smv guy on the next farm over and fucked him silly back in the woods somewhere, you are delusional. Of course opportunity matters and there is a ton of science on sexual behavior based on population density and transportation available etc. None of that disproves female hypergamy. None of it. It’s observed across cultures and over time in the… Read more »

jf12
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jf12

Yet another female psychologist’s take:
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/07/researcher-explains-that-sex-spreadsheet.html
“Married couples have sex about 6.3 times a month on average, but frequency declines over time due to a whole host of factors, like work demands and children. Regardless of actual frequency of sex, perception is what matters.”

In other words, he must expect the decline, he must expect it’s because of other factors besides her stubborn contempt born of familiarity, and he must expect that she’ll perceive it to be fine “regardless of actual frequency.” Facts don’t matter, only feelings matter, and specifically only her feelings matter.

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

Rollo – “Modern marriage has become a sword of Damocles situation for men, only, after they marry they realize they never have any real fortune or power to make the sword dangling above him worth the risk assuming responsibility for it.” I have finally taken that sword down and re-sheathed it. 27 years in a couple of weeks. Kids still at home, but both in their twenties. She has actually made as much or more then me the last couple years. Her retirement fund is much larger then mine. LOL! No threat of child support or spousal support. House is… Read more »

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

Retrenched, I get the gist, but the elephant in the room, is that still, most men want to be fathers.

Unless you are like this guy –

http://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2011/08/12/single_man_wanted_a_child_hired_a_surrogate_had_a_baby.html

Mart
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Mart

Yeah, jf12, not what was said there at all:

“Harman’s response:

(..) What leads to satisfaction? This is highly subjective; each partner’s perceptions can differ dramatically. Having sex 2 times a month may be more than enough for the wife, while not even close to satisfactory for the husband. Both partners in this case seem to be handling their sexual dissatisfaction poorly.”

Tendentious quote mining is a bad thing. Why do it?

ropeyarns
Guest

@ Lost Young Guy: The best advice for dealing with this girl is RUN! as far and as fast as you can. She is playing (even if she doesn’t know it) a game of baby daddy and you are the chosen one. I have seen this behavior before with women in their fertile cycle. They display no interest in you then blow up the phone. I would just chalk it up to fertility hormones except for her desire for sex without protection. This girl has an agenda to lock you down. The only way to save yourself is to refuse… Read more »

jf12
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jf12

@Mart, incorrect. I quoted her where she layed out *expected* behaviors (see the title of this post). She then,as per your quote, merely wrongly states “Both partners in this case seem to be handling their sexual dissatisfaction poorly.” The wife had already said SHE was fine with the low frequency and thought it ought to be no big deal to the husband too.

jf12
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jf12

re: male Catch-22. Hamlet says it best:

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?

George
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George

Glen, Calm down. Pop culture psychology has debated the “nature vs nurture” impetus concerning human behavior for far too long without serious consideration of free will alone. We could debate the influence of nature and nurture over free will and eliminate free will as a viable initiative altogether. However I think we would be very mistaken. You missed my point. My point was NOT to argue the existence vs. the nonexistence of hypergamy i.e. “your grandma likely got the hots for the relatively high smv guy on the next farm over and fucked him silly back in the woods somewhere”.… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
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Professor Von Hardwiggs

”Retrenched, I get the gist, but the elephant in the room, is that still, most men want to be fathers.” Idealism. I”ve met quite a few men who regret having had children for several reasons. The price of rising kids, having a defected child, the wife using the child to control them, raising kids who aren’t theirs and they don’t know. Women don’t need men to have children with. There are sperm banks all over the world and in Scandinavia its very rare to see a household with a man in it. Men don’t need to marry or to live… Read more »

George
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George

The attitude necessary to track, document and compile the spread sheet is an EXTREMELY MAJOR TURN OFF for any normal person. This is something appropriate for accounting or engineering, not a sexual relationship regardless of the context.

Mart
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Mart

@jf12, this is her entire reply: “I hadn’t seen the item, but WOW. It is a very passive aggressive and destructive way to communicate dissatisfaction. You are right, though, about people needing to be in sync. Married couples have sex about 6.3 times a month on average, but frequency declines over time due to a whole host of factors, like work demands and children. Regardless of actual frequency of sex, perception is what matters. Sexual satisfaction is strongly related to relationship satisfaction; there is no clear direction of causality, however. When we are sexually satisfied, we feel our relationships are… Read more »

LiveFearless
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Sometimes there are masterfully written combinations of words that are meant to be experienced from the global stage.

Magent
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Magent

Very interesting timing of this post. Hand to God was thinking of dropping you an email, Rollo, to get your take on something. Turns out it very much falls in line with this… Been having issues with the spouse regarding sex, ie, frequency and intensity, both of which are much lower than I want/like/need. It’s led to some discussion, sometimes heated. Yeah, I no, negotiating desire. Well, I have also been working on myself to make a more subtle point to her and make myself more attractive in general. Anyway. Turns out, she ends up talking to married friends about… Read more »

Ryan
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Ryan

The fact of the matter is if this guy was a single dude fucking 3 or 4 girls this chick would be all over him but cause they are married she knows he’s not going anywhere.

George
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George

Ryan,

He’ll likely end up going somewhere not by his choice.

The Nature of a Man
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The Nature of a Man

The spreadsheet is absolutely the result of his wife attempting to re-write history and reality according to her own narrative. She will have insisted to him that they have more sex than they actually do. She will have insisted that she usually says “yes.” She will accuse him of “constantly” asking for sex and “never” leaving her alone. She will have told him that he’s making too big a deal about sex. Essentially, she will have been constructing a narrative where he’s the one who is being selfish and unreasonable. He is being inconsiderate of her needs and disrespectful of… Read more »

Mart
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Mart

@Rollo Tomassi “Spreadsheet Guy cannot win. If he makes the effort to stand up for himself by logging his wife’s sexual excuses, he’s a pussy begging loser and not enough of a man to get her going. If he doesn’t do anything and politely endures her excuses he’s a pussy for not being man enough to confront her about it.” He’s lost because he is a vindictive loser. Normal people do not create spreadsheets of their mates’ sexual or other behavior. She made a mistake (?) of marrying him. Or maybe she knew that he was a spreadsheet-making vindictive loser… Read more »

jacklabear
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jacklabear

@George I have felt that your comments were a bit ‘off ‘ for a while now. But it wasn’t until a comment you made at the end of the last thread (Separating Values) that you lost all credibility with me. I repeat my comment to you: George wrote (about the dentist who fired the hygienist because of his attraction to her): “… I would have filed a sexual harassment suit against the dentist…” How is filing a sexual harassment suit against the dentist going to help the bad situation for men in this feminine primary culture? Are you some kind… Read more »

Keith Swanson
Guest

If you have to beg for sex you’ve already failed…

Klaus Bon Jovi
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Klaus Bon Jovi

Ha Ha “George”, you are so obviously a female.

Wanderer
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Wanderer

@Ropeyarns & @Lost Young Guy I am relatively new to spinning plates and casual sex, but I had a similar experience that baffled me and was wondering if I could get a little clarity from this community. I was gaming this HB9 girl for about a year. She had a boyfriend the entire time but eventually she broke things off, I believe, so that she could get with me. The day they broke up I happened to stumble upon the book version of The Rational Male… thank God, for reasons I’m about to explain. Naturally the girl and I started… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
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Professor Von Hardwiggs

”I consider women who make themselves look ‘hot’ in the workplace to be sexual harassment against me. Especially if they complain about me noticing it. It’s like the slut walks. Sluts on parade with chips on their shoulders.”

Imagine if that would go down. Most girls in high school and in college would be sued for all their daddy’s worth.

Professor Von Hardwiggs
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Professor Von Hardwiggs

”The attitude necessary to track, document and compile the spread sheet is an EXTREMELY MAJOR TURN OFF for any normal person. This is something appropriate for accounting or engineering, not a sexual relationship regardless of the context.”

hey georgie, what if your husband keeps forgetting to pay the bills? You’re not going to call him out on that am I right?

George
Guest
George

Mart, Unfortunately “openly discussing” their sexual needs would be no more effective at improving their sex life than the spread sheet. This approach is appropriate for business meetings, huddles on the football field and military campaigns but never love. I NEVER “openly discussed” sexual preferences with any girls I’ve dated. Somehow I instinctively knew it would be like “shitting in the swimming pool”. Also, I consider it a form of intellectual laziness. It is like attempting to take a short cut of sorts when the longer route is a crucial part of the enjoyment. It is far more fun to… Read more »

Magent
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Magent

“He’s lost because he is a vindictive loser.” You know that how? “Normal people do not create spreadsheets of their mates’ sexual or other behavior.” Really? Why not if it proves a point? Pre-Marriage when my girlfriend was constantly harping to me that I did not spend enough time with her, I broke down my average week in a spread-sheet, down to the minute. I shared my results with her verbally, and even offered to show her the pie-charts for her perusal. She not only did not want to see them, she then miraculously shut up about it the whole… Read more »

George
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George

Professor Von Hardwiggs,

In my life, sex has nothing to do with paying the bills.

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

Rollo – “Compare this spreadsheet to a PUA’s number of approaches-to-lay ratios. I’m thinking the PUA’s have a better success rate”

Well, let’s run the numbers then;

Krauser – 26 lays out of 1000 approaches for a 2.6% success rate

SSG – 3 lays out of 27 approaches for a 11% success rate.

Wow! SSG is a fool! He was more then 4 times as successful as one of the best PUA’s! What the hell is he complaining about??!!!

George
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George

Professor Von Hardwiggs

“hey georgie, what if your husband keeps forgetting to pay the bills? You’re not going to call him out on that am I right?”

I have no opinion on that. I earn the money, my wife pays the bills and knows better than to forget.

gusti
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gusti

When I was engaged in living together with ocassional girlfriends, I was clear to them from the very beginning : if they didn’t feel in the mood of fucking me, I would happily trade out for a handjob or blowjob. That was the least I will accept from them every single night, or the relationship was likely over. Think it like men do not always have desire to do things for their women, and they do, and that was a was for them to reciprocate that goodwill of mine.

Morpheus
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Morpheus

I consider women who make themselves look ‘hot’ in the workplace to be sexual harassment against me. Especially if they complain about me noticing it. When I read this, I was reminded of this which I had come across surfing YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU You wear a top like that with tits like that…damn straight I’m going to be staring at your tits. I think Conan actually played it well, but I think as a standard move one has to realize the standard female playbook is to scold and/or shame. You lose if you accept that shaming frame instead of pushing back… Read more »

George
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George

Klaus Bon Jovi

Ha Ha “George”, you are so obviously a female.

Don’t get your hopes up.

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