Case Study – Low Expectations

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I’ve often been quoted of the following – “Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace” – and at the risk of piling on to what I initially knew would be the click-bait du jour of the blogosphere this week, I was reminded of this quote as I read through the now infamous spreadsheet of sexual excuses as compiled by a 26 year old husband for a 26 year old wife.

You’ll have to excuse my tardiness in posting this week, but I wanted to allow this story some time to develop before I threw my hat in the ring. My expectation was that most takes on this sex denial log would be from a unilaterally feminine-primary perspective and predictably ridicule the husband for his efforts while absolving his wife of any culpability for her ‘reasons’ for not wanting to get after it with him.

Needless to say I wasn’t disappointed, but as an added bonus we got an indignant insight into what a feminine-primary culture expects men not to expect in marriage (spoiler alert, PUAs called this long before Feministing did).

There’s a lot to unpack here, so I’ll begin with the most obvious issues first.

The most glaring omission I’ve read in most of the posts regarding this couple so far is that, in a blatant effort to lessen the negative impact on the wife, very few bloggers have included the entire Reddit post to draw conclusions from:

 

Zreanes

The first thing we have to do is a bit of Red Pill math to understand the context in which this situation takes place. We have a couple that married young by modern standards. Both are 26 and have been married for 2 years (i.e. married at 24).

Furthermore they’d been monogamous for 3 years prior, thus they met and paired up at the age of 21.

This is as much as we know about their history, but in context we’re looking at a guy who in all likelihood married a 24 year old girl for the same feminine conditioned, idealistic reasons he had for pairing up with her at 21.

I don’t have any evidence to support the idea that this guy married his wife due to religious convictions, but I don’t think it’s too far a stretch to presume they had somewhat regular sex in the 3 years prior to marrying.

I also can’t confirm that either party had sex with anyone else prior to their meeting at 21, but if we consider that both likely had average sexual experiences between 18-21 we’re only talking about a window of around 4 years in which either had any opportunity to experience anyone else before they met.

I’m establishing this because if I had to speculate, both are the husband and wife are operating from Adolescent Social Skill Sets, and thus have no real frame of adult reference learned through dating (LTR or STR) with which they can base their expectations in marriage.

However, as we’ll see in a moment, a fem-centric culture is only too willing to fill in the blanks of that lack of social reference for them.

Spreadsheet Guy

A woman’s imagination is the single most useful tool in your Game arsenal.

Every technique, every casual response, every gesture, intimation and subcommunication hinges on stimulating her imagination. Competition anxiety relies on it. DHV (demonstrating higher value) relies on it. Sexual tension (‘gina tingles) relies on it. Call it “Caffeinating the Hamster” if you will, but stimulating a woman’s imaginings is the single most potent talent you can learn in any context of a relationship (LTR, STR, ONS, Plate Spinning.)

Spreadsheet Guy is learning this now no doubt. He’s done what most men do: attempt to litigate with evidence and deductively solve his problem by appealing to his wife’s reason with a token effort to enforce his ‘being in the right’ by exposing her to a marginal amount of dread.

What he fails to account for is that even if she responds with more frequent sex, any sex they do have will be the compromised result of her negotiated obligation, not her genuine, motivated desire.

The frame you enter into monogamy/marriage with sets the tone for your future relationship. Spreadsheet Guy is simply following the male deductive approach to problem solving and making appeals to his wife’s reason by graphically showing her (and now all of the internet) the evidence of his correctness.

Why Women Can’t ‘Just Get It‘

Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women.

It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.

I can’t fault the guy for his effort; he simply hasn’t learned that women never want full disclosure of anything – and particularly anything that shines an unflattering light on them.

Nothing is more gratifying for a woman than to believe she’s figured out a man using her mythical ‘feminine intuition’. Spreadsheet Guy doesn’t give her the option to use her imagination and solve the puzzle – just like most guys who believe the trope that ‘open communication is the key to a good relationship®’ he spells it out for her in no uncertain terms – and with a marginal amount of above-board Dread he expects (I presume) the problem with her sexual frequency will be solved for him.

From The Desire Dynamic:

From a male perspective, and particularly that of an uninitiated beta male, negotiation of desire seems a rational solution to the problem. Men tend to innately rely on deductive reasoning; otherwise known as an “if then” logic stream.

The code is often something like this: I need sex + women have the sex I want + query women about their conditions for sex + meet prerequisites for sex = the sex I want.

One very important element of Spreadsheet Guy’s actions that needs to be understood is the convenient comparisons being made in regard to the transactional nature of sex, and the expectations men (and to a lesser degree women) place on their conditions for sex.

Of course the first feminist retort is that men should never have any expectation under any circumstance of receiving the gift of a woman’s sexuality for any reason other than that she wants to fuck him.

Naturally this becomes problematic under the auspices of marriage wherein a man’s default presumption is that he is, if not entitled to, then certainly can expect to some extent that his wife will have sex with him.

This situation represents an illustration of the great schism between the old order social contract of marriage, wherein a man had a reasonable expectation of sex with his wife, and the new feminine-primary order wherein a man has absolutely no right, expectation or privilege to his wife’s sexuality.

Unfortunately for men the great deception of this schism serves the Feminine Imperative in that it still conveniently convinces men that they can expect sex while simultaneously shaming them for the expectation that feminine-primacy tells them they should expect.

This double-speak is necessary to insuring the certainty of long-term security needs that women’s dualistic sexual strategy demands.

Consider Choreplay: 5 years ago the same female author encourages men to do more dishes and help a woman out with her domestic chores because “nothing’s sexier” than a man who ‘shares’ the housework.

Translation: Perform these tasks and you will be rewarded with the “unadulterated lust” your wife has been reluctant to deliver – i.e. negotiated desire.

5 years later…“Households with a more traditional gender division of labor report higher sexual frequency than households with less traditional gender divisions of labor,”

So the only conclusion we can really draw from this is that women encourage exactly the transactional mentality about sex that they now complain all men feel they are “owed”.

Spreadsheet Guy was caught in this presumptive trap – prior to marriage he’s sold the idea that he can expect his wife to be sexual with him on a regular basis, but only after he’s taken measures to prove that his wife isn’t upholding her end of the marriage bargain is he told that he in fact has absolutely no privilege to his wife’s sexuality under any circumstance – and furthermore that she holds unilateral control over his own sexual fulfillment under penalty of breach of (marriage) contract.

Spreadsheet Wife

As I began earlier, an entire social support network is more than ready to fill in the blanks left by Spreadsheet Wife’s lack of social reference.

The most obvious form of this comes from the comments and encouragement of women and feminized men affirming her prefabricated understanding of ‘what sex should be after marriage’.

Our sex life HAS tapered in the last few months, but isn’t that allowed?

If you need confirmation of the double-speak about sexual entitlement I outlined above you’ll find it in the words of the same woman before and after she’s married.

This is yet one more ready-made social convention for women to default to after she’s secured the provider-male her hypergamy demands in marriage. A woman’s sexual appetites are expected to “taper” off and she should be “allowed” this tapering and have a man understand and accept this fact.

Once again, The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:

For one sex’s sexual strategy to become realized, the other sex’s strategy must be compromised or abandoned entirely.

And again, the Roissy / Heartist Prime Directive of Feminism:

The goal of feminism is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality

After all the back and forth I’ve been reading about this spreadsheet I think it’s time for men to come to terms with how the social contract that used to be marriage has fundamentally changed.

Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace.

The advantages of being single and indefinitely dating non-exclusively (Spinning Plates) or stringing along a series of short term monogamous affairs far outweigh the risks of a lifetime of marriage in which no man should ever expect sex in terms of either genuine desire or even uninspired obligation sex.

In other words, men are entirely powerless to effect any degree of control over their sex lives under the auspices of a now feminine-primary definition of marriage. The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.

In Appreciation I went into detail about how women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate a feminine reality; this situation is a prime example of this.

Women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the risks a man must assume in unilaterally relinquishing any degree of control he might’ve been able to realize over his own sex life – and never to expect he could ever even have that control.

370 comments

  1. Hrm, lets see Sunshine Mary and others try to disagree with the last three paragraphs now that you’ve fleshed out that concept in more detail.

  2. To my reading of it, this is a different iteration of Rollo telling all of us, in so many words, ‘I was simply lucky to marry someone great who still does and will continue to elude the virulent feminist stain of median American women, given that I did marry so many years ago, before I came to understand all these social machinations. But y’all younger guys are absolutely fucking retarded if you marry today, as I did years ago.’

    Key quote in this piece: “The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.”

    Great stuff Rollo.

  3. If spreadsheet wife is using those predictably lame excuses at age 26 after only a few years of marriage, imagine the excuse spreadsheet when a kid arrives on the scene lol

    Rollo – After unplugging via your blog, the most powerful red pillism every man needs to understand is “you can’t negotiate genuine desire”.

  4. One more comment on the woman’s post – as posted in JPEG here:

    “We spent all spring renovating our new house. At my job I was given nearly double my usual workload after some of my colleagues were laid off. I gained some weight in the winter and have been busting my ass at the gym to get rid of it.”

    I’ll translate that:

    “He spent all spring renovating our new house, doing light construction, re-doing a bathroom, putting in a new living room floor – all kinds of skilled manual labor…while I cleaned once in a while and heated up cup-o-noodles for when he needed a lunch break. Once I even drove to the liquor store and bought him a 6 pack of light domestic beer for when he was finished for the day. I have been moderately busy at work and I hate my shitty job, so I gave myself an excuse to eat like a whale and get fat in the process. I really didn’t do much of the work renovating the house in the spring and that’s apparent in the fact that I haven’t lost weight during that time – if I were working hard around the house during the spring, I probably would’ve lost the weight I put on during the winter. I do go to the gym 2 times a week and do some light cardio for 20 minutes, but then on the way home I get an extra large Starbucks frappuccino. Somehow that weight has stuck all this time, and I don’t fit into my clothes anymore. But I do *wish* I still did fit into my clothes, and that wishing counts as ‘trying to get rid of it’. Yes, that’s what happened. He’s worked his ass off and raised our property value by thousands while I haven’t done my fair share. But this all makes me miserable, so it must be his fault. Wah!”

  5. So are you saying that once a man marries a girl the realization of sexual strategy occurs and this sex life will undoubtedly decline?

    To ensure a good sex life in marriage you have to enter it with the right alpha frame. But is that even possible to ‘enter marriage in an alpha way’? Marriage has characteristically been know to be beta by modern society.

    So basically, no matter what your sex life will plummet when you marry….? You just gotta know sub communication and game as a man to keep it somewhat alive occasionally? But then how do you prevent infidelity from the girl?

  6. That’s it boys. Final straw. Time to swap out Demi Moore for the Demimonde. Dust off the passports.

  7. Assuming that sex is your primary goal in life, or one of them anyways, and assuming a materialist/non-religious worldview, you are entirely correct, Rollo, that marriage is for fools.

    While I would not, and do not, abet or condone fornication, I can with all honesty say that a man who isn’t religious should never marry under the present legal and cultural regime.

    Speaking as a fairly devout Christian (at least by my estimation), I can say that Christians are between a real rock and a hard place in the present environment. Marriage is the only licit place for sex, and yet there is no guarantee a Christian man who marries will be able to enjoy what is now permissible. To be a Christian man right now, you have to mean it. Because it will be anything but an easy road.

    In other words, men are entirely powerless to effect any degree of control over their sex lives under the auspices of a now feminine-primary definition of marriage.

    What do you mean by “control.” Would “Game” or male attraction/arousal building tools count here? Because they can help a man gain some measure of control over his sex life. Its just no guarantee of control. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that a man has no guarantees in marriage?

  8. donalgraeme
    July 24th, 2014 at 1:50 am

    Marriage is for children. The first mate was 8 1/2 months pregnant when we made it legal. And yes – the child was intentional. My choice. And other than the usual difficulties with women I’m not sorry.

  9. “Of course the first feminist retort is that men should never have any expectation under any circumstance of receiving the gift of a woman’s sexuality for any reason other than that she wants to fuck him.”

    Rollo, I would add to this the following:

    Naturally, she is entitled to protection and provisioning from him (even after divorce). So what we are seeing here is the classic ‘give and take’. Where he gives and she takes.

  10. One needs a biological perspective on all this. For women sex means children. Maybe not in the current reality but it is hardwired in. That is the natural reality. So she is going to want as little sex as possible to string the guy along. Even if her hypergamy is not front and center.

    If her hypergamy is front and center you are going to want to be as alpha as possible so she takes the easy way out and has it with you.

  11. Rollo and others:

    What does it mean when a girl not only wants to have unprotected sex with you but she also wants you to cum inside her? I know the obvious answer is she wants a baby but hear me out here.

    On her most fertile days she wants me to dump my load in her but yet, she never initiates the sex. I know she doesn’t have a genuine desire for me because she hardly gives me bj and she hardly does anything when we bang. She just lays there and takes it. The only time she’s really into it is when she’s fertile (I know this by her fertility app) and then she’s practically begging for my seed in her. There’s times where I’ll take the condom off right after I bang her and she grabs my dick and moves it towards her hole. I have to say, that at first, I went with it since I liked the desire on her part. It was very foolish on my part but thankfully, nothing happened. I know, I know, spare me the “if you’re not ready for a kid…” talk.

    I’ve realized that eventually, I’m going to have to get rid of her because as much as I hate saying it, this relationship feels transactional in a way. It’s hard to explain because I hardly take her out anywhere. We just meet up and bang it out anywhere we like. It just seems like I’m always doing the work and this chick doesn’t initiate anything, unlike the girls I’ve had in the past.

    There’s probably a guy or guys (you know, with the way things currently are) in the picture but I still don’t know what to make of it. I’ve come to an understanding that a girl will either want your seed or she’ll want your resources (Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks). I hardly give her anything or take her out for that matter so according to this model, I’m Alpha Fucks but I’m not getting the genuine desire that Alphas get. What gives? Is there something I’m missing here?

    Any feedback is appreciated.

  12. “The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.”

    Truth! I watch closely the lives of my married friends in their late thirties or early forties. Not only they sleep with wives I would not fuck even after 6 shots of Jim Beam. In addition, theese land whales are using sex to manipulate and control them! Do this, slave for me, perform..and you might be allowed to fuck my ugly, worn out body!? Of course you are expected to do all the work in bed!

    Take the life of one of my friends as an example. He lives in quiet desperation and resignation. He has two little childdren. He has not have sex for 5 months! After delivery of children he foundf himself to be completely ignored by his wife. She does not give a fuck about him, except as provider and constantly mock him to earn more money. What is a paradox is that this friend is good looking, INTELIGENT AND GOOD man, giving tingles to young women. She is at best – average, stupid bitch. I am surrounded by similar cases.

    Marriage is slavery. It has always be so.

    I, myself escaped marriage with sheer luck…there was no manosphere and no infomations back then. Young men are stupid. These informations about a trap – marriage are PRICELESS!! Stupid, beta fathers do not instruct their sons about the trap called marriage. Ask yourself – should a man sign the papers under which he is expected to bang the SAME, aging woman till death, slave for her, proivide and protect her…and she is obliged to…ehm..nothing??

    One thing more – married felllas – do not tell me that you enjoy banging your wives after 6 or 7 years. I know the inevitable dynamic of sexual desire for men. No wonder that many of married men have problems with impotence. He is expected to bang the same, aging, ugly meat with bitchy personality”? Give this “impotent” a new, young, energetic woman, and he will fuck the hell out of her.

  13. Sex is allowed to taper. Weight is allowed to be gained. Typical excuses from lazy people.

    “Houses are allowed to deteriorate” should be the answer from beta-husband when she wanted that renovation.
    And what about publishing the excel file on reddit? Of course she needed support from teamwoman cause she CAN’T be wrong

  14. Lost Young Guy
    July 24th, 2014 at 2:55 am

    Find out if she has been raped or otherwise sexually molested. The “laying there” is often a symptom. That kind of girl needs a LOT of training. Generally not worth the effort.

  15. gregg
    July 24th, 2014 at 2:57 am

    It is unusual but for some men looks don’t matter a lot. I never had a problem getting 7s, 8s, 9s, and the occasional 10. Best girlfriend I ever had was around a 3. Very sweet. Kind hearted. Everything you could want in a LTR. Look up the 50s song “Make an ugly woman your wife”. A lot of truth there.

  16. Ask your married guy friends about sex frequency prior to marriage and post marriage (and especially post parentage), and the honest ones will tell you it dries up significantly once the ring is on the finger and the wedding day is now a memory.

    Any man living in the real world needs to acknowledge this is more than a coincidence. Any man must ask himself what the true motivations are for his potential future wife being with him.

    http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2013/12/here-comes-bride.html

  17. Great analysis as always.

    I wonder, though, if the spreadsheet was really a genuine attempt to ‘negotiate’, or simply a hand grenade thrown in anger? I suspect the latter, because I find it very hard to believe that even the most blue pill of guys would seriously expect some sort of capitulation on the back of it. This is rather compounded by the fact he hasn’t returned her calls. Perhaps he’s reached the end of his tether and he simply doesn’t care what she thinks of him or his behavior anymore, however petty. Hopefully for his sake he’s seen the light and intends to dump her.

  18. @Simon

    Make an ugly woman your wife. Truth?

    Hehehe, nice trap for betas and especially gammas with no experience in women. And they are actually buying it…in millions. Every chick has to catch a slave. Pretty ones have much more leverage then our little ugly baby. So she tries to be an angel in acquisitive mode – when she is trying to catch a slave. It is a great tool in her arsenal – to show that she is such a “good, kind hearted” being. And she, as the superior manipulator, usually succeeds and traps a man 2-4 points above her in smv.

    Put this ring on her finger and make her a child or two. And keep watching – closely watching. You would not believe how this “sweet” girrrl changes into cold, manipulative bitch. If you have to marry – at least marry a good looking woman. You can at least have some satisfaction when boning her. I´ve seen many previously innocent, angelic, ugglies, managing their slaves – husbands, with firm, cold hand and/or robbing those poor suckers of everything they had (in divorce) with ferocity and coldness, even satan himself would be proud to have.

    Ugly woman is still a WOMAN – sophisticated being, designed by evolution with programs carefully designed to manipulate, use and enslave men. She compensates the deficiency in looks with projection of kindness and warm heart, in order to catch her slave. Just give this duck power via marrying her and you will see the same cold, cruel and primtiive hypergamy as in beauty queen!

  19. You can see why Islam has developed some of the mechanisms it has to deal with the nature of females. A man is allowed to take up to four wives, the threat of which keeps the current wife on her toes, and men are allowed to easily initiate divorce (but don’t in practice) while it is difficult for a woman to get a unilateral divorce.

  20. Married 16 years (together 18), and we still have sex every 4-5 days. That being said, it did slow down a few years ago to weekly, which is where i did my searching and found the manosphere. Long story short, i brushed up my act a little (thanks in particular Roosh and Rollo for red pill erudition), and it’s back to where i like it.

    I told the girl early on that if she did’nt meet my needs on a regular basis then i would get them met elsewhere. So not sure if i agree with the assertion of men having no sexual control in modern marriage. You just follow red pill teaching to present higher value and then have the balls to go for the evening (no comms) if they don’t comply. You need to show her you really are prepared to run off with a 20 something.

    Bear in mind though that my wife was 20 (i was 24) when i met her and Christian. While we were dating i dumped her ( I hooked up with another chick) for a month but the tail was too good so i took her back. So despite modern feminism she had a good psychological background and she knew that i was the type to follow through.

    The other day we were talking about our 4 children and when discussing our 14 yo son the wife said that he “needed to be less laid back if he was to someday be the head of his household and the leader of his family”. It nearly brought a tear to my eye.

  21. @gregg Amen to that. If you have to put up with all the crazy that is woman then at least pick one that is hot and show’s you that she knows how to stay skinny.

  22. The “you can’t negotiate sexual desire” is truly one of the biggest TRP truths I have read.

    For those who are not married, I would counsel you that setting the frame from the beginning is vital; but, maintaining frame is where the real “effort” is.

    Over 10 years of marriage has shown me that. At times where I did not keep the frame and my wife set it, sex was nonexistent and if it did happen… Boring.

    Everything in a single man’s game is needed in a LTR.

    I genuinely feel bad for Spreadsheet guy and just think how long before the wife finds someone on her business trips to bang. When she does, when not if, this spreadsheet will be #1 on her hamster’s list for why.

  23. Pay attention to the line about wife busting her ass in the gym. Is hubby doing the same? Or is she taking in the sights, thinking that she can do better? Is she being approached by one of the players that targets married women? Regardless of her initial reaction, hubby can appear much less attractive than ripped, confident gym dude.

  24. Not just a homerun, this article made it to orbit. This particular doublethink is the epicenter of the feminine-imperative brain cancer ruining all relationships for everyone:
    “A woman’s sexual appetites are expected to “taper” off and she should be “allowed” this tapering and have a man understand and accept this fact.”

  25. re: “The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.”

    True. All true.

  26. Will asks a pertinent question, possibly with some wistful hoping “But is that even possible to ‘enter marriage in an alpha way’?”

    The answer is, sadly, no. It is absolutely completely impossible, currently.

  27. i don’t think this guy was trying to negotiate or even trying dread, he just wanted to win an argument.

    it seems more like they had an argument (not the first) where he said “you always say ‘no'” & she responded “i don’t say ‘no’ that much, you’re exagerating” & he lost the argument. so he compiled the metrics just to win because he was sick of losing that argument. & i don’t think he was trying dread, i think he went radio silent because he was mad as hell & wasn’t going to take it anymore.

    i just hope he will stumble on the red pill because of this & can turn it around because these days it’s a fool’s gamble to get married.

  28. Gee….what does this mean for actual christian virgin guys waiting for marriage? It’s strange…but christian women don’t actually prefer virgin men. unfortunately, their claimed beliefs cannot overcome that smell of an unwanted man.

  29. and at the risk of piling on to what I initially knew would be the click-bait du jour of the blogosphere this week, I was reminded of this quote as I read through the now infamous spreadsheet of sexual excuses as compiled by a 26 year old husband for a 26 year old wife.
    Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace.

    The advantages of being single and indefinitely dating non-exclusively (Spinning Plates) or stringing along a series of short term monogamous affairs far outweigh the risks of a lifetime of marriage in which no man should ever expect sex in terms of either genuine desire or even uninspired obligation sex.

    Rollo,

    Although Aunt Giggles “analysis” and commentary is worthless, her solipsistic funhouse does serve a useful function now that it has been made “safe” for women to comment without having to worry about getting pushback. It now gives you an unvarnished look at the female mindset,

    It is worth venturing over there and reading the comments just to get a sense of where many women are on this “spreadsheet/sex” issue. The logical conclusion is that YES most women are in fact not marriageable, and by marrying them you are losing all leverage you have while dating.

    One male commenter correctly identifies that a man should run away at Usain Bolt speed from any women who shows any indication of the “I don’t owe a man anything” mentality especially when said man is her husband. Giggles herself has an interesting comment about economic dependence of wives and “compliance”.

    Like you, I am married. I’m quite sure I’ve got a “good one”, but I also have no delusions about what any woman is capable of given the right circumstances, and particularly a husband losing SMV and frame. As you say,marriage is no insulation from the SMP. In marriage 2.0, the competition is always ongoing even if you do not realize or accept it.

    One interesting issue raised by this example and some others relates to SMV, and SMV differentials in long-term relationships or marriage. My own view is very few relationships are perfectly identical equal SMV exchanges. In most every relationship, one person is to a greater extent the prize. This doesn’t have to be stated directly, and it can basically operate in the backdrop as a low hum, but if the rubber hits the road, that individual has better bargaining position.

    So for a guy, one question is do you try to lock down the hottest possible woman you can (who most likely knows it) where maybe you a lower SMV, or do you go for the woman who is below you in SMV so that you are always in the “prize” position?

  30. re: prize. By removing men’s power in marriage, no man ever gets to be the prize. Hence, always try higher on SMV. A pretty princess is always better than an ugly princess.

  31. Well, just make sure that the circumstances that were present at initial attraction continue when it comes to marrying a really hot women. The higher above your looks you punch, the more important your external circumstances (read, wealth, income, status) become for the continuation of the relationship.

    In other words, one would assume your relationship would have more staying power in rough circumstances if you were both equally hot(or above her) in the looks department, and therefore didn’t depend as much on income or other compensating factors.

    There’s a reason women divorce their husbands after losing their jobs. They were simply providers and that’s it. All attraction was tied to external factors. Make sure her attraction is based on something more than a good job unless you can guarantee continued prosperity. Sure, most women aren’t gold diggers…..but there’s levels to this stuff.

    Also, if a man wants to come into a marriage with strong frame and optionality, the single greatest factor is having a financial War-chest of his own BEFORE the marriage. I’m not a lawyer, but lets just say that setting up trusts well in advance of marriage are far and away better than prenups. Just having this knowledge of financial safety in the background (should things crumble) will give you far more confidence in dealing with your wife, especially if she knows she can’t crush you in divorce. Unfortunately, it’s rather difficult for a 24 year old to have such resources, which is one more reason to wait longer.

    Just consider this…. how difficult would it be to pretend to respect your ‘leader’ if you always knew in the back of your mind you could completely destroy him with hardly any effort, and he knew this as well AND there was nothing he could do about it. Well, welcome to modern marriage. That’s why dread game is so powerful and why tying the knot is such a tingle killer.

  32. Another one for the ages, I saw this kerfuffle in the femisphere and of course the female reaction was predictable – I guess it’s a good sign that I’m no longer shocked. I also feel no compulsion to engage with women on a subject like this as I know there is no point – they don’t care about men’s needs or how they see the bargain of marriage. I got the message and have adapted accordingly.

    Two things jump out at me:
    1. In her commentary she immediately brings up the recent purchase of a house. How much do you guys want to bet that she began to reduce sexual activity once the house was purchased? I’m sure the guy didn’t just start recording this stuff out of the blue, it must have changed pretty notably and gone on for a couple of months before he got angry and decided to track it. And why wouldn’t she? He’s served one of the primary purposes a man has for her in her life. That is, of course, building the lifestyle she believes she deserves and is told in the culture that she’s entitled to.

    2. The guy – I see this as negotiated desire with some dread thrown in. It seems to have worked to small degree as she’s calling him and freaking out, but to me it’s all inside of a flawed dynamic as Rollo points out. She’s never going to care about what he wants – never. This will only turn their sex lives into a battlefield which is what happens in most marriages anyway.

    My ‘journeyman’ advice (yes, I think i’ve finally moved out of rank beginner status as a game-aware, self-oriented man) would be that he should simply have instead flirted with or even fucked some other woman. Instead of a nuke like this, just go out with friends and don’t tell her. Return her flurry of texts/call with a single text at 10 pm that says.”Went out with xxx, figured you wanted watch Friends re-runs anyway.” And nothing more. Come home late, smelling of another woman – and say nothing, and I gurantee if he shows up at 3 in the morning drunk, she will fuck him like a porn star on a popper (best sex i had in my marriage was when I did this – really, it was the only good sex my wife and I had after a while, and then even it stopped) Build a social circle that doesn’t include her, sign up for a bowling league, go away with the boys on a camping trip – anything but grovel at her feet, even angrily or in a dominant way.

    In sales we say “show, don’t tell”. I went through a similar phenomena when I got married. We saw a therapist about it – female of course – and the whole thing was put on my shoulders. My ex would say “I just don’t want to have sex as much as you do”. The therapist gave us “exercises” where we were to be in bed naked together and touch each other and be intimate with each other but not be sexual. Of course, this was a disaster. She didn’t want to be naked with me and I didn’t want to be non-sexual. I eventually got sick of foreplay being 2 hours of begging and pleading and upped the ante and told her to either act like she loved me or get out of the marriage. Her response? To begin fucking another guy. I guess she never finished the sentence above. It really was. “I just don’t want to have sex with YOU as much as you want to have sex with me.” With the new guy? Due to unfortunate twists of fate, I found out that they were fucking everwhere and all the time during the affair (it was at her part time waitressing job that she hadn’t needed in 2 years and everyone knew, and one person decided to tell me – he was the chef and she was fucking him in the walk in cooler and at my house while I was at work and there were many other sexual details that I was stunned by). I never did understand it all until coming here.

    One last quick point. The whole “I got fat by accident and I’m trying but the weight won’t come off” is such a con. She doesn’t need to be attractive anymore so she isn’t trying now that she’s got the house. No matter how busy one is, one can choose to overeat or not. I’ve gone up and down in my life weightwise, but I’ve always realized that it was due to the buttered rolls or bagels or seconds. I can control my weight and she can too. But in a feminine imperative shaped world, I’m supposed to “understand” her struggles as unique. She’s “speshul” and such a fucking snowflake that in her reality, she’s becoming a porker against her wishes and he has no right to hold her responsible for it.

    This guy should sell the house and run, not walk, away. I do like the feistiness though, I like that he’s telling her “No fucking way is this acceptable” and is not willing to argue it. it won’t do any good but at least he’s got some self-respect. Hopefully he comes here and begins to learn what she’s really up to before they have kids.

  33. @ M Simon.

    That makes sense. You know, I was thinking that because she does seem to hold a grudge against men but then again It could just be her Alpha Widow kicking in. She did tell me once that she will never forgive what her father did to her, but I never pressed on what she meant by that because I thought she was just venting her family issues at the time. A couple of days ago she also told me, “You remind me a lot of my father.” Now that I look back at this stuff, it’s about that time to bail out.

    Not only do we have to take a girl’s hypergamic drive into consideration but we also have to deal with her past as well. Christ…seems to me like girls have more baggage than they’re worth but hey, we all gotta get laid some way or another.

  34. @Glenn, re: “The therapist gave us “exercises” where we were to be in bed naked together and touch each other and be intimate with each other but not be sexual. Of course, this was a disaster.”

    It used to be amusing to me as a bluepiller that ALL of women’s advice regarding sex involved less sex. It has long ceased to be amusing.

  35. @Glenn

    …In her commentary she immediately brings up the recent purchase of a house. How much do you guys want to bet that she began to reduce sexual activity once the house was purchased? I’m sure the guy didn’t just start recording this stuff out of the blue, it must have changed pretty notably and gone on for a couple of months before he got angry and decided to track it. And why wouldn’t she? He’s served one of the primary purposes a man has for her in her life. That is, of course, building the lifestyle she believes she deserves and is told in the culture that she’s entitled to.

    Mobility is the one factor of a man’s life that is too easily given up for a woman. Houses do this, which is why I’ve decided I’ll never buy one. I may buy real-estate, but not for my own habitation. If a woman truly wants to be with me, she’ll live with me wherever I go, and there is no negotiation on that. If she has a problem with a mobile lifestyle that permits changing jobs, states, etc… she can hit the road. If she insists that kids need a “home” to be raised in, she’s full of shit. There are thousands of nomadic tribes, even nomads in the developed world, that do just fine raising kids. Kids only need a stable family, they don’t really need peer friends until their teenage years. The reason women say that kids need a home and a community is out of pure laziness, because they know that other kids and other nearby moms can make excellent babysitters.

    Houses are marriage anchors, and marriage is a sinking ship. Retain your mobility and half the job of holding frame is done for you.

  36. Modern marriage has become a sword of Damocles situation for men, only, after they marry they realize they never have any real fortune or power to make the sword dangling above him worth the risk assuming responsibility for it.

    Then they realize they’re trapped in the ‘throne’ below the sword.

    Before I get asked this question (again), don’t think of my marriage as some benchmark by which to compare contemporary marriages to. Yes, I have a good marriage (18 years last Sunday), yes I maintain frame and Mrs. Tomassi and I are a good match, but I’m also well aware of that sword of Damocles and women’s potentially feral nature.

  37. @ Rollo – I don’t expect you to confirm or deny this but I’ve always assumed that there is much more to what goes on in your marriage than you reveal here – which is wise. I can imagine the tightrope you must walk with the women in your life at times given what you say here. But what I’m certain of is that you employ what you present here to the best of your ability.

    It’s also true that life is a series of tradeoffs and like any man in a marriage, the choices available to you are not good. I don’t doubt you are honest about the quality of your marriage but really, at the end of the day, I don’t expect you to be here telling us about the latest issue you had with your wife. We leave the crap to the women. Like this vicious harpy who published her husband’s plaintive cry for sexual attention for all the world to see. I used to wonder what women who did this kind of thing were thinking? Now I no longer wonder…She is thinking of herself and all the other womyn of the world who will validate her. You are right about the adolescent behavior too, she’s a girl, not a woman.

  38. So for a guy, one question is do you try to lock down the hottest possible woman you can (who most likely knows it) where maybe you a lower SMV, or do you go for the woman who is below you in SMV so that you are always in the “prize” position?

    Interesting. And there may be something to it. But I always had the attitude that I was the prize. My son’s are very tall and smart. And #1 daughter is also tall and very smart. So maybe my juice was worth going after. But of course the mate made a contribution. One of the reasons I stuck with her was that she was much smarter than average.

    The daughter is interesting. Just graduated college (ChemE no less) is at least a 9.5, has experience in the real world (corporate jobs, travel) and is disgusted with all the men she has met. ALL of them.

    The boys seem to have a corresponding attitude about women.

    It looks like there is a LOT of fun out there if you can navigate but not much future. Ah. Well.

  39. Lost Young Guy
    July 24th, 2014 at 11:53 am

    Excellent! I took one of those on as a project once. And I helped some. But it seems like that for neither love nor money was she ever willing to give up her grudges. And yes. I got told more than once “you remind me of my father”. What you will find if you don’t bail is that she will take out all her father anger on you. Very unpleasant.

  40. We saw a therapist about it – female of course – and the whole thing was put on my shoulders.

    The first mate is always pulling that shite on me. I tell her, “Go ahead. Tell me how it turns out. I don’t need one. It’s you.” Well that “we need therapy” crap just dissolves in the face of that. Because what it is really about is, “I’m going to get some help to gang up on you.” I’m not buying it. If I have issues that I think need fixing (and I have from time to time) I fix them myself.

  41. American women? Please. Asian women are worse, they can actually control the vagina supply due to China having far more men than women, and European women look a lot better than American women, but they are just as devious. Most of the older men I know of, the fathers of my friends complain of the same. They haven’t gotten laid in 20 years or more. Negotiating attraction and all that jazz about what makes women sexually desire men – Meh. Do like the Dutch. Go to a brothel, get laid, go home and be happy. The only power women have is the power men give to them and by being addicted to vagina most men are slaves of women.

    A well-fed slave is still a slave.

  42. Whatever we say about Mr. Spreadsheet, he intended his message just for her. Interesting no one’s called that the only way she could possibly “prevail” over him in light of his radio silence was to PUT IT ON THE WEB for EVERYONE to see. Which yes, gets the you-go-grrls on her side, that’ll show him, now he’ll obey, you little turd, and don’t ever do it again. Now fix the gutters. But of course in Redditing this she is exposing herself as well: this is how I elect to treat my husband. Isn’t that allowed? But he’s not allowed to call me on it, however clumsily. [Cue: peanut gallery applause]

    You must never send anything without expecting to have it read back to you someday on a witness stand, but I will give Mr. S. the benefit of the dout, that he doesn’t care. In which case, good for him. While I might make such a list if I was in his shoes, I would save it for the ultimatum, what used to be called Phase Five: shape up or I ship out.

    Which he can eminently do here! No kids! Houses can be partitioned and sold.
    Mr. S. should say on his return: nice cheering section you got there. Marry them, share a house with them. I’m DUNN, I got somethin’ to DO.

  43. @ Wiggs – Well said, but here’s a thought. What are these men thinking? I had too much self-respect – long before the Red Pill – to put up with my erstwhile wife cutting me off from sex. She chose to exit the marriage and it was also pre-Red Pill so I handled none of it to my advantage – but still. At 28, good looking, making 90k with 200 in sight (and achieved in short order), smart, funny and socially dominant, i literally had hot young women throwing themselves at me. I remember this beautiful 21 yr old Puerto Rican girl, an admin our office – a dime for sure, a light skinned Sade (the singer). I walked her to the subway station after a group after work cocktail session and when I turned to go she said, “Aren’t you going to kiss me?” I must have looked confused for a sec – cuz I was – and she said, “What, are you scared?” In that moment I thought of my cunt ex-wife and was like, why on earth am I putting up with this crap? I would go home to a wife who seemed angry that I’d returned and simply knew that I could not let this be my life. Fyi, the guy my ex had the affair with after I gave her an ultimatum to “get in or get out – and if you get in, you have to act like you love me” ended up marrying her and she destroyed him too. In fact, after they split, she admitted to me in a moment of rare honesty that she had stayed in that marriage 5 yrs longer because she didn’t want me to have the satisfaction of thinking that perhaps the dissolution of our marriage wasn’t my fault. This is who we are marrying, folks. And if you met her, you’d think she was sweet. And when she was that age she was a 9+ – her ass was a work of art. Lol, men are such fucking idiots.

    You use the term “slave” which as a literary allusion is fine, but in reality, this is voluntary, right? Men stay in it. Many men won’t even cheat but instead just settle for nothing. What is going on with these men?

  44. Any doubts about whether or not modern marriage is an entirely fem-centric institution, in which women have rights but no responsibilities while men have responsibilities but no rights, should be totally dispelled by now. Any man who doesn’t see this must be self-blinded by his foolish idealism, really.

    The thing is, no man needs to get married to NOT get laid. A man can NOT get laid all by himself, much more cheaply than he can NOT get laid with a wife. And he won’t have to put up with bitching, bossiness, nagging or temper tantrums either.

    I think for most men the ideal would be to have a good woman in his life who loves him and likes having sex with him. But, if a man can’t get that, then being alone is far, far preferable to being stuck with a woman who doesn’t love him, who he nevertheless is obligated by law to support for life, either as husband or as ex-husband post-divorce.

  45. @Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Obvious

    Whatever we say about Mr. Spreadsheet, he intended his message just for her. Interesting no one’s called that the only way she could possibly “prevail” over him in light of his radio silence was to PUT IT ON THE WEB for EVERYONE to see. Which yes, gets the you-go-grrls on her side, that’ll show him, now he’ll obey, you little turd, and don’t ever do it again…

    I mentioned this in a comment on ROK. This woman who posted her marital problems on Reddit should absolutely be shamed into oblivion. By doing so she is publicly declaring that she values the support of female herds more than her husband and her marriage. An adult response from an adult female would have been to talk to her husband about the pain she had caused him. Instead she magnifies both her own immaturity and his pain by turning it into a national soap opera.

  46. The catholic church was correct not to ordain women.
    The ordination of women was the window that Gay marriage came through.

  47. Rollo,

    I’ve managed construction projects for over 30 years, own a construction company for six now. One thing I have learned is that people will always perform at what ever level you allow, to whatever standard you set and maintain (as long as the requirements are realistic). The less you expect the less you get. The more unacceptable behavior you allow, the more unacceptable behavior you will experience.

    Real tangible phenomena shape history. Ideology rarely does.

    Women have not realistically benefitted from the “feminist imperative”. The REAL benefits women enjoy are derived from mans ingenuity, creativity and ALL HUMAN industriousness. Men have provided and continue to provide many inventions affording everyone (especially women) leisure time we couldn’t even dream of 200 years ago. Both men and women have labored to mass produce and distribute various products that greatly “improve” our standard of living. The feminist movement and feminine imperative as described herein are really nothing more than “soap opera”. Fortunately we are referencing a subculture. Unfortunately that subculture is large enough to make some individual members believe the problem is pervasive throughout all cultures. It is not.

    Compared to today, during times before the washing machine, water pump, clothes dryer, dish washer, aerosol, electric iron, electric or gas furnace, combine, harvester, modern oven, penicillin, homogenized milk, canned food… women in the past were far more productive members of society. My mother was born in 1932 in the Appalachian mountains of Tennessee in a tent without power or running water. The family owned a farm and lived off the land. Most of us absolutely have no idea how to survive such conditions or of the social dynamics involved. Women actually had to work their asses off (at their own level) as hard as men just to survive and raise children. There was no time for soap opera. Today in our culture there is a lot of soap opera. “An idle mind is the devils workshop”. The rub board, wood burning cast iron stove, clothes line, open water well, hand held corn shucker, hand operated meat grinder, mason jar, spinning wheel, etc have been largely replaced with Opera, As The World Turns, Days of Our lives, The Today Show, Starbucks, Weight Watchers, Dr. Phil-O-Shit, etc.

    Your “female hypergamy” is NOT a “hard wired” innate female chromosomal trait necessary for female survival. Believing so is false. Representing it as such is a fundamental “beta” mistake AND SUPPORTS your “feminist imperative”.

    By defining and categorizing your “female hypergamy” as an innate female chromosomal hard wired trait you accept, step into, and operate within your feminist imperative “frame”. You are performing as just another “AFC” actor in your “female hypergamy” soap opera by defining and accepting her unacceptable behavior as innately driven.

    The claim (that your “female hypergamy” IS a “hard wired” innate female chromosomal trait) provides a very effective excuse and justification for unacceptable female behavior. “She just cannot help herself, that’s just the way she is”….”So…”Alpha-up”, study Rollo’s blog and learn how to deal with it (play along “The rational Male” way) and continue to be an “AFC””.

  48. Fought to ensure that they are treated like helpless babies. Feminism IS the “Patriarchy” it decries.

    OUr fathers should have stopped this

  49. Nathan
    July 24th, 2014 at 2:20 pm

    How long can this situation go on.

    How long

    Until it dies out. Literally. The kids are not reproducing.

  50. The spreadsheet guy doesn’t realize he’s just a safety net… just in case she won’t be able to secure some alpha seed before she hits the wall. Until then, he can merely expect the occasional checkup-sex.

  51. @Glenn… God damn dude that is seriously depressing. I’m still shocked by how manipulative women can be. She would stay in a marriage she hated for 5 extra years, just so you wouldn’t have the satisfaction of no longer believing the end of the marriage wasn’t your fault. Mind boggling.

    @troyfrancis “Perhaps he’s reached the end of his tether and he simply doesn’t care what she thinks of him or his behavior anymore…”

    Yep, that’s right about where I am. I really just don’t care anymore. Don’t care if she cheats, don’t even bother trying to find out (I’ve suspected in the past, but no proof). Don’t care if she wants to fuck or doesn’t. Haven’t kissed her in years as she used to rebuff me all of the time. Used to be agonizing for me. Now, I don’t care. Interestingly, the less I care (and I mean really, honestly don’t care) the more she starts to actually try. Recently, she HAS initiated (albeit still only occasionally). She actually has started being more physical, touching me, putting her arm around me. It’s interesting to observe from a sociological/psychological standpoint and definitely confirms everything Rollo writes here about dread, but it doesn’t alter the fact… I just don’t care anymore. One thing women don’t understand is that eventually we DO reach a breaking point. And once we cross that line, I’m not sure there is any turning back.

    @Thug I told the girl early on that if she did’nt meet my needs on a regular basis then i would get them met elsewhere.You need to show her you really are prepared to run off with a 20 something.

    And… @Glenn My ‘journeyman’ advice (yes, I think i’ve finally moved out of rank beginner status as a game-aware, self-oriented man) would be that he should simply have instead flirted with or even fucked some other woman.

    This also… I told my wife that exact same thing about 7 years ago. She was shocked, pissed off, furious. And in my still beta-mindset, I immediately felt incredibly guilty about saying it. I haven’t brought it up since then, but she’s started dropping hints in the last 6 months or so that she suspects I may have another piece on the side. Nothing steady, but as I’ve become more red pill aware, I have started attracting a lot of other women and on occasion I’ve had the pleasure of fucking a couple of them. The intense pleasure of kissing and fucking a woman that eagerly kisses and fucks you back is something I missed terribly.

    I’m not even wracked with guilt over it anymore, although I do think being as discreet as humanly possible is important. And not because of the potential for divorce rape. I can pick up and start over, and I need very little for my happiness in any case – a small apartment, a guitar, a good bike, and I’m content. All of the accoutrements of success (big house, fancy car, all that bullshit) were never important to me. But it would hurt the kids and it would be cruel to rub her nose in it.

    Bottom line: I’m no longer angry or frustrated about her lack of desire. I just don’t care anymore and will get my sexual needs fulfilled elsewhere.

  52. The way to enjoy sex throughout your marriage, is to marry a broad who is into sex as much as you are. Sometimes called a “slut”. Just be forwarned that you may have to accept the fact that she may still like the occasional taste of someones else dick. If you can put up with that, then life can be good. (Just make sure you are one of these first – Sociosexually unrestricted – http://spp.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/06/03/1948550614537308.abstract

  53. Another thing, it is normal, even if you game the shit out of your wife the whole marriage, for ennui to set in. At that point you have a few options, a couple, for the religious is to get on with the spiritual path of marriage. Move beyond the physical into the love of God. For those that want to bang til the day they die, do an abrupt change in your life. And I will leave that decision up to you!

  54. Morph – ” As you say,marriage is no insulation from the SMP. In marriage 2.0, the competition is always ongoing even if you do not realize or accept it.”

    Oh so true. We now have a majority of “Bro’s” who put the “Ho’s” before the Bro’s.

    The thirst runs deep my friends!

  55. @ George – ‘No matter how much bullshit you write’ (as you so emphatically told me) you have no idea what you are talking about. And if you don’t think that your grandma likely got the hots for the relatively high smv guy on the next farm over and fucked him silly back in the woods somewhere, you are delusional. Of course opportunity matters and there is a ton of science on sexual behavior based on population density and transportation available etc. None of that disproves female hypergamy. None of it. It’s observed across cultures and over time in the anthropological and genetic record – even if people work hard, lol. Stop lecturing us about things you don’t understand.

    But you have all the answers. Whatevs, I’m at the point where I find guys like you amusing. They roll through the Red Pill world, oftentimes self-styled alphas. Some seem to be sociopaths or even psychopaths, and are actually “Gammas” who’s transgressive and anti-social personalities can’t be restrained (have you ever raped a woman, Georgy?). It’s ‘pathology in motion’ and quite instructive to witness. This also explains your bizarre hostility and insistence that you know what’s in my mind in our exchange on the last post. I have a bit of ‘oppositional disorder’ going on myself, so I often spend time sorting loudmouths out – but at least I’m aware of it.

    But one slice suffices for me. I know you have to respond – you are constitutionally incapable of not doing so. I will not though. Have a nice day.

  56. Yet another female psychologist’s take:
    http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/07/researcher-explains-that-sex-spreadsheet.html
    “Married couples have sex about 6.3 times a month on average, but frequency declines over time due to a whole host of factors, like work demands and children. Regardless of actual frequency of sex, perception is what matters.”

    In other words, he must expect the decline, he must expect it’s because of other factors besides her stubborn contempt born of familiarity, and he must expect that she’ll perceive it to be fine “regardless of actual frequency.” Facts don’t matter, only feelings matter, and specifically only her feelings matter.

  57. Rollo – “Modern marriage has become a sword of Damocles situation for men, only, after they marry they realize they never have any real fortune or power to make the sword dangling above him worth the risk assuming responsibility for it.”

    I have finally taken that sword down and re-sheathed it. 27 years in a couple of weeks. Kids still at home, but both in their twenties. She has actually made as much or more then me the last couple years. Her retirement fund is much larger then mine.

    LOL! No threat of child support or spousal support. House is paid for. Have some retirement money put away. Would actually do quite well if we were to seperate, which she understands fully.

    LMFAROTFP!

  58. Yeah, jf12, not what was said there at all:

    “Harman’s response:

    (..) What leads to satisfaction? This is highly subjective; each partner’s perceptions can differ dramatically. Having sex 2 times a month may be more than enough for the wife, while not even close to satisfactory for the husband. Both partners in this case seem to be handling their sexual dissatisfaction poorly.”

    Tendentious quote mining is a bad thing. Why do it?

  59. I should also add that Spreadsheet Guy is an excellent example of the Man Up or Shut Up aspect of the male Catch 22:
    https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/18/the-honor-system/

    For the past 60 years feminization has built in the perfect Catch 22 social convention for anything masculine; The expectation to assume the responsibilities of being a man (Man Up) while at the same time denigrating asserting masculinity as a positive (Shut Up). What ever aspect of maleness that serves the feminine purpose is a man’s masculine responsibility, yet any aspect that disagrees with feminine primacy is labeled Patriarchy and Misogyny.

    Essentially, this convention keeps beta males in a perpetual state of chasing their own tails. Over the course of a lifetime they’re conditioned to believe that they’re cursed with masculinity (Patriarchy) yet are still responsible to ‘Man Up’ when it suits a feminine imperative. So it’s therefore unsurprising to see that half the men in western society believe women dominate the world (male powerlessness) while at the same time women complain of a lingering Patriarchy (female powerlessness) or at least sentiments of it. This is the Catch 22 writ large. The guy who does in fact Man Up is a chauvinist, misogynist, patriarch, but he still needs to man up when it’s convenient to meet the needs of a female imperative.

    Spreadsheet Guy cannot win. If he makes the effort to stand up for himself by logging his wife’s sexual excuses, he’s a pussy begging loser and not enough of a man to get her going. If he doesn’t do anything and politely endures her excuses he’s a pussy for not being man enough to confront her about it.

  60. @ Lost Young Guy: The best advice for dealing with this girl is RUN! as far and as fast as you can. She is playing (even if she doesn’t know it) a game of baby daddy and you are the chosen one. I have seen this behavior before with women in their fertile cycle. They display no interest in you then blow up the phone. I would just chalk it up to fertility hormones except for her desire for sex without protection. This girl has an agenda to lock you down. The only way to save yourself is to refuse to even go out with her anymore and NEVER sleep with her again. You sir are warned.

  61. @Mart, incorrect. I quoted her where she layed out *expected* behaviors (see the title of this post). She then,as per your quote, merely wrongly states “Both partners in this case seem to be handling their sexual dissatisfaction poorly.” The wife had already said SHE was fine with the low frequency and thought it ought to be no big deal to the husband too.

  62. re: male Catch-22. Hamlet says it best:

    To be, or not to be: that is the question:
    Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
    And by opposing end them?

  63. Glen,

    Calm down.

    Pop culture psychology has debated the “nature vs nurture” impetus concerning human behavior for far too long without serious consideration of free will alone. We could debate the influence of nature and nurture over free will and eliminate free will as a viable initiative altogether. However I think we would be very mistaken.

    You missed my point. My point was NOT to argue the existence vs. the nonexistence of hypergamy i.e. “your grandma likely got the hots for the relatively high smv guy on the next farm over and fucked him silly back in the woods somewhere”. I referenced my mother, not grandmother, an immaterial discrepancy although it indicates you did not read my comment carefully before blasting out your highly emotional response. I agree hypergamy certainly does exist. We clearly disagree on the extent, to which it exists.

    Your blathering implications that I am a rapist, sociopath, psychopath, etc. is venting for you, nonsense to me.

    The point I made is that the origin of hypergamy is NOT innate, (chromosomal) and to think it is gives it undeserved validity as a universal female trait. If we consider it as such we remain “plugged in”, we are merely still reacting to it, controlled by it. I think It is actually a choice made possible by opportunity and conditioning of both sexes.

  64. ”Retrenched, I get the gist, but the elephant in the room, is that still, most men want to be fathers.”

    Idealism. I”ve met quite a few men who regret having had children for several reasons. The price of rising kids, having a defected child, the wife using the child to control them, raising kids who aren’t theirs and they don’t know. Women don’t need men to have children with. There are sperm banks all over the world and in Scandinavia its very rare to see a household with a man in it.

    Men don’t need to marry or to live with women to have children. They can use a specialized company to rent the services of a surrogate mother, thus the child belongs to the man and he has the guarantee the kid is his. That, or with the coming genetic engineering, not only with there be artificial wombs and eggs, but you’ll be able to select the characteristics you want your son to have. Oh, no more low IQs. No more cancer. No more heart disease etc.

    PUA’S have a low success rate. The old man down the street who visits the brothel has a 100% approach rate, and he’s banging young women who are much better-looking than the women the PUAs bring home drunk.

  65. The attitude necessary to track, document and compile the spread sheet is an EXTREMELY MAJOR TURN OFF for any normal person. This is something appropriate for accounting or engineering, not a sexual relationship regardless of the context.

  66. @jf12, this is her entire reply:

    “I hadn’t seen the item, but WOW. It is a very passive aggressive and destructive way to communicate dissatisfaction. You are right, though, about people needing to be in sync. Married couples have sex about 6.3 times a month on average, but frequency declines over time due to a whole host of factors, like work demands and children. Regardless of actual frequency of sex, perception is what matters. Sexual satisfaction is strongly related to relationship satisfaction; there is no clear direction of causality, however. When we are sexually satisfied, we feel our relationships are good. When our relationships are satisfying, our sexual satisfaction also is greater. What leads to satisfaction? This is highly subjective; each partner’s perceptions can differ dramatically. Having sex 2 times a month may be more than enough for the wife, while not even close to satisfactory for the husband. *Both partners in this case seem to be handling their sexual dissatisfaction poorly. Rather than be honest about the underlying reason she doesn’t want to have sex, the wife is making up excuses. Rather than being direct and voicing his sexual needs, the husband creates a spreadsheet. If this couple wants to be satisfied in their relationship, their sexual needs have to be addressed openly with each other.*”

    She is correct. You’re not.

    @George:

    “The attitude necessary to track, document and compile the spread sheet is an EXTREMELY MAJOR TURN OFF for any normal person. This is something appropriate for accounting or engineering, not a sexual relationship regardless of the context.”

    This.

    It is likely the attitude he exhibits in all other areas of life. No wonder she avoids sexing him.

  67. Very interesting timing of this post. Hand to God was thinking of dropping you an email, Rollo, to get your take on something. Turns out it very much falls in line with this…

    Been having issues with the spouse regarding sex, ie, frequency and intensity, both of which are much lower than I want/like/need. It’s led to some discussion, sometimes heated. Yeah, I no, negotiating desire. Well, I have also been working on myself to make a more subtle point to her and make myself more attractive in general.

    Anyway.

    Turns out, she ends up talking to married friends about the sex issue. She asks them:

    “How often would YOU want to have sex with your husband if it were entirely up to you?”

    One wife said twice a month. The other said once. The latter says she has sex more often to satisfy her husband, but fakes her orgasms and enthusiasm most of the time, which I take to mean except maybe that one time a month she’s interested.

    My wife almost smugly presented this to me as proof that our track record (average 2 times month, MAYBE 3 at times) is at least average or above.

    I looked at her dumbfounded before I pointed out that was NOT something to be proud of. That sex was important to a man, part of a very core and basic need and such a ratio was not fulfilling the man’s desires and needs, and that NOT doing so is potentially a BIG problem.

    She pointed both women worked full time as well as kids, and that was why they were so tired, too tired to have sex more often.

    Sounds like a valid reason why men did not want their woman working to me! If she can’t work and fulfill her duties, something has to go. Should it be the man’s sex life?

    This all clarified for me the realization that Marriage 2.0, or whatever you want to call it, is dead. Perhaps 1.0 was not as great as it is pictured, or maybe the structure truly allowed men and women to better interact.

    I don’t know.

    What I do know is that my attitude on many things have shifted to deal with this reality. I thought of marriage and faithfulness with a lot more respect than I do now. It disturbs me in a way, but I can’t ignore that my feelings and attitude have changed and with good reason.

    Friends used to talk about the wisdom of the “European” way, whereas it was accepted to have a mistress on the side, and I poo-pooed it.

    Now I am beginning to get it.

    Here’s the quandry for the average married guy.

    He is now required to work at regaining the desire from his wife by working on all aspects of his being; fitness, personality, dominance, career, potential, etc. All this, again, to just get back to where he was when he was dating the woman before marriage.

    Let’s say he succeeds…

    He know he has (if he is lucky/persistent) gotten to the point of having a decent sex life with a woman to whom he already gave up his freedom, resources and such to get in the first place. Basically, he is back to square one with the same (but older, less attractive) woman, after investing heavily in her already. Great he might think at first.

    But if he has been successful at increasing the desire from this one woman, it follows he would raise his attractiveness with a whole bunch of others, some of whom at least are going to be more attractive, and more passionate, than his current partner. If begins to understand that…

    Spreadsheet guy ran the numbers, figured out what HE was investing and had invested in the relationship, and realized he was getting shitty returns. In his case, he sent his analysis to his supplier of a vital good, and said, “You are screwing me on this deal, and not in a good way. We need to review the contract.”

    Another man’s way will be to look for another supplier, who might just give him better goods, at a lower price.

    What I am basically saying, what I was trying to get across to my wife was that she, and her fucking friends, better look to step up *their* game or their husbands might soon be stepping out on them and they will have no one else to blame.

  68. The fact of the matter is if this guy was a single dude fucking 3 or 4 girls this chick would be all over him but cause they are married she knows he’s not going anywhere.

  69. The spreadsheet is absolutely the result of his wife attempting to re-write history and reality according to her own narrative.

    She will have insisted to him that they have more sex than they actually do.
    She will have insisted that she usually says “yes.”
    She will accuse him of “constantly” asking for sex and “never” leaving her alone.
    She will have told him that he’s making too big a deal about sex.

    Essentially, she will have been constructing a narrative where he’s the one who is being selfish and unreasonable. He is being inconsiderate of her needs and disrespectful of her boundaries. His expectations are unrealistic. She’s the victim here.

    He knows this is all bullshit, but always seems to come out looking stupid when they argue about it. Possibly, he’s even started to wonder if his perception is inaccurate.

    The spreadsheet lets him know that he’s not going insane. And I would guess that when the wife says that their sex life has “tapered in the last few months,” it probably started well over a year ago.

  70. @Rollo Tomassi

    “Spreadsheet Guy cannot win. If he makes the effort to stand up for himself by logging his wife’s sexual excuses, he’s a pussy begging loser and not enough of a man to get her going. If he doesn’t do anything and politely endures her excuses he’s a pussy for not being man enough to confront her about it.”

    He’s lost because he is a vindictive loser. Normal people do not create spreadsheets of their mates’ sexual or other behavior.

    She made a mistake (?) of marrying him. Or maybe she knew that he was a spreadsheet-making vindictive loser before they tied the knot, and that she was not attracted to him sexually in the least (normal women avoid spreadsheet-making vindictive losers), so who knows why she married him.

    In any case, their marriage is over now, and for the better.

  71. @George

    I have felt that your comments were a bit ‘off ‘ for a while now.
    But it wasn’t until a comment you made at the end of the last thread (Separating Values) that you lost all credibility with me.

    I repeat my comment to you:

    George wrote (about the dentist who fired the hygienist because of his attraction to her):

    “… I would have filed a sexual harassment suit against the dentist…”

    How is filing a sexual harassment suit against the dentist going to help the bad situation for men in this feminine primary culture?

    Are you some kind of white knight who wants to use the alpha proxy of the state against men? Too beta or fem to fight your own battles?

    I consider women who make themselves look ‘hot’ in the workplace to be sexual harassment against me. Especially if they complain about me noticing it. It’s like the slut walks. Sluts on parade with chips on their shoulders.

  72. Just Get It:
    https://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

    This is why the “communication is everything” meme has been responsible for the demise of more relationships than anyone will ever admit. It’s not that you communicate, it’s what you’re communicating and how you communicate it. I’ve counseled more men than I care to recount who’ve sobbed from the depths of their souls, “IF SHE’D JUST TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO DO TO MAKE HER LOVE ME I’D DO IT!” not realizing that their very verbalization of that and a belief in open, rational communication is the very thing that’s killing (or killed) their woman’s desire for him.

  73. @Ropeyarns & @Lost Young Guy

    I am relatively new to spinning plates and casual sex, but I had a similar experience that baffled me and was wondering if I could get a little clarity from this community.

    I was gaming this HB9 girl for about a year. She had a boyfriend the entire time but eventually she broke things off, I believe, so that she could get with me. The day they broke up I happened to stumble upon the book version of The Rational Male… thank God, for reasons I’m about to explain.

    Naturally the girl and I started hooking up. There were no phone conversations, few texts and only the minimal amount of dates. It was just her coming over to my house or me going over to her house and us fooling around. But the strangest thing DID NOT happen, we did not have sex. This was obviously strange to me. It was all the more peculiar because the girl literally could not keep my dick out of her hand or mouth. She was passionate and feral for me and it had been obvious to me for a long time.

    I made several moves to try to escalate things to intercourse (and I claim to be no pro at this) but every time I was turned down. I would l go get a condom and she would say that sex wasn’t going to happen because she wanted a relationship with me first. At the time, I was seeing her only once a week at the most, and that was not enough for her. Blah, Blah, Blah.

    But several times, usually later on in the same evening she would beg me to put it inside of her. I would reach to get a condom and she would scold me in a hushed voice that she wanted to feel me raw. One time she begged me to pin her down and force her to have sex even though she would “pretend to fight against me” at first. Fortunately, I had just finished reading the Iron Rules of Tomassi, so I always refused these requests. It was a true sexual stand-off. Honestly, it was one of the hardest and certainly strangest things I’ve been through with any girl. I hooked up with this girl numerous times over the course of three months, it was always passionate, but we never had intercourse.

    I eventually nexted her and moved onto to focus on other girls. Not too long after this, I had an another experience similar to @Lost Young Guy. It was with a different girl who I was attracted to but not dying to bang (HB6). After about 3 minutes of making out she literally pulled my dick out my pants and put it inside her and we fucked. I was caught off guard to say the least and luckily nothing happened.

    It is important to note that both of these girls are what most people would consider “Good Girls” and not “Sluts.”

    But I’ve been wondering, is this pretty common with girls? Like I said, up until recently all of my sexual experiences have come in LTR’s where birth control was involved and discussed. But, when it comes to hooking up with girls, is this “I want it raw” thing pretty common? Are they really just wanting a better sexual experience or are they just going after your seed?

  74. ”I consider women who make themselves look ‘hot’ in the workplace to be sexual harassment against me. Especially if they complain about me noticing it. It’s like the slut walks. Sluts on parade with chips on their shoulders.”

    Imagine if that would go down. Most girls in high school and in college would be sued for all their daddy’s worth.

  75. From Taking Things Slow:
    https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/04/taking-things-slow/

    Sex is the deal breaker, but in my pointing it out I run the risk of coming across as “shallow” or “superficial.” It’s important, but it shouldn’t be that important, right?

    Wrong. It is THAT important. Sex is the glue that holds relationships together.

    If you encountered a woman who fit every ideal you ever had for a relationship – best friend, loving, 100% loyal, excellent mother, came from a great family, perfect HB 10, healthy both mentally and physically, emotionally available, intellectually stimulating, shared all your beliefs – who loved you unconditionally and wanted to marry you, but with one caveat; he/she would NEVER have sex with you under any circumstances, would you marry this person? You could have children together through insemination and they would always be platonically affectionate with you; knowing full well before you did, and pledging to be completely faithful yourself, would you spend the rest of your life in a completely sexless marriage with an otherwise ideal person?

    Remember this sexless state doesn’t come after having had sex before (due to an injury or disability), it’s a pre-condition for the relationship. That’s the underlying message of “taking it slow” – all the benefits and emotional perks of a relationship with no expectation of sex. It’s like men having a fuck buddy, all the sex he wants with no expectation of emotional investment.

    This is how important sex is. People tend to think of love as coming in different varieties and colors – platonic, fraternal, familial, erotic, agape, etc. All of this is nonsense. Love is love, it’s how it’s expressed that’s different. I love my Mom, my brother, my best friend and my daughter, but I only fuck my wife – that’s what makes us husband and wife, not brother and sister. Sex can be an expression of love or it can be an act of recreation, but it is always a prerequisite for an intersexual relationship. It’s time we all stopped deemphasizing the importance of sex and accept it for what it is. Every time we think we’re taking some moral high-road by saying it’s superficial or shallow to place such importance on sex, we only do a disservice to ourselves and our lovers. We’re only screwing ourselves by thinking that we’re in some way above sexuality in some lame self-delusion that in stating so will make us more desirable and set us apart from the rest of the herd (who are also claiming to be above sex anyway). It IS that important, so start giving it the respect it deserves. You do yourself no favors by desexualizing yourself.

  76. ”The attitude necessary to track, document and compile the spread sheet is an EXTREMELY MAJOR TURN OFF for any normal person. This is something appropriate for accounting or engineering, not a sexual relationship regardless of the context.”

    hey georgie, what if your husband keeps forgetting to pay the bills? You’re not going to call him out on that am I right?

  77. Mart,

    Unfortunately “openly discussing” their sexual needs would be no more effective at improving their sex life than the spread sheet. This approach is appropriate for business meetings, huddles on the football field and military campaigns but never love. I NEVER “openly discussed” sexual preferences with any girls I’ve dated. Somehow I instinctively knew it would be like “shitting in the swimming pool”. Also, I consider it a form of intellectual laziness. It is like attempting to take a short cut of sorts when the longer route is a crucial part of the enjoyment. It is far more fun to explore a woman’s body sexually without holding a “board meeting” in advance. This is true for both sexes. Great music is not enjoyed by managing and analyzing the listening process. It is simply experienced. During 20 years of marriage my wife and I have never “openly discussed” our sex life to plan it better. We both OPENLY LAUGH about the pop culture psychology trope that couples should. Don’t believe the pop culture lies. It is not hard to sense what your sexual partner is enjoying or not and if they are in the mood to start with. The most satisfying sex is NEVER an overtly managed planned activity. It is not a business endeavor except prostitution which is far less satisfying. The best sex is when both truly desire each other and each is enjoys to the other unencumbered.

  78. “He’s lost because he is a vindictive loser.”

    You know that how?

    “Normal people do not create spreadsheets of their mates’ sexual or other behavior.”

    Really? Why not if it proves a point?

    Pre-Marriage when my girlfriend was constantly harping to me that I did not spend enough time with her, I broke down my average week in a spread-sheet, down to the minute. I shared my results with her verbally, and even offered to show her the pie-charts for her perusal.

    She not only did not want to see them, she then miraculously shut up about it the whole matter.

    Seemed pretty effective to me, normal or not.

    Or is that your problem? Something that effectively takes a woman to task for poor behavior?

    “She made a mistake (?) of marrying him.”

    Right, because you know she’s a prize and he’s a loser.

    “Or maybe she knew that he was a spreadsheet-making vindictive loser before they tied the knot, and that she was not attracted to him sexually in the least (normal women avoid spreadsheet-making vindictive losers)”

    So, you lay out the possibility that she married him under false pretenses, knowing she was not attracted to him at all, and yet you still side with her?

    Mangina jackass. Or is it shrieking feminist harpy?

    Hard to tell the dif sometimes.

  79. Rollo – “Compare this spreadsheet to a PUA’s number of approaches-to-lay ratios. I’m thinking the PUA’s have a better success rate”

    Well, let’s run the numbers then;

    Krauser – 26 lays out of 1000 approaches for a 2.6% success rate

    SSG – 3 lays out of 27 approaches for a 11% success rate.

    Wow! SSG is a fool! He was more then 4 times as successful as one of the best PUA’s! What the hell is he complaining about??!!!

  80. Professor Von Hardwiggs

    “hey georgie, what if your husband keeps forgetting to pay the bills? You’re not going to call him out on that am I right?”

    I have no opinion on that. I earn the money, my wife pays the bills and knows better than to forget.

  81. When I was engaged in living together with ocassional girlfriends, I was clear to them from the very beginning : if they didn’t feel in the mood of fucking me, I would happily trade out for a handjob or blowjob. That was the least I will accept from them every single night, or the relationship was likely over. Think it like men do not always have desire to do things for their women, and they do, and that was a was for them to reciprocate that goodwill of mine.

  82. I consider women who make themselves look ‘hot’ in the workplace to be sexual harassment against me. Especially if they complain about me noticing it.

    When I read this, I was reminded of this which I had come across surfing YouTube

    You wear a top like that with tits like that…damn straight I’m going to be staring at your tits. I think Conan actually played it well, but I think as a standard move one has to realize the standard female playbook is to scold and/or shame. You lose if you accept that shaming frame instead of pushing back hard. You don’t want me staring at your tits, then wear a loose fitting sweater.

  83. Klaus Bon Jovi

    Ha Ha “George”, you are so obviously a female.

    Don’t get your hopes up.

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