Case Study – Low Expectations

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I’ve often been quoted of the following – “Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace” – and at the risk of piling on to what I initially knew would be the click-bait du jour of the blogosphere this week, I was reminded of this quote as I read through the now infamous spreadsheet of sexual excuses as compiled by a 26 year old husband for a 26 year old wife.

You’ll have to excuse my tardiness in posting this week, but I wanted to allow this story some time to develop before I threw my hat in the ring. My expectation was that most takes on this sex denial log would be from a unilaterally feminine-primary perspective and predictably ridicule the husband for his efforts while absolving his wife of any culpability for her ‘reasons’ for not wanting to get after it with him.

Needless to say I wasn’t disappointed, but as an added bonus we got an indignant insight into what a feminine-primary culture expects men not to expect in marriage (spoiler alert, PUAs called this long before Feministing did).

There’s a lot to unpack here, so I’ll begin with the most obvious issues first.

The most glaring omission I’ve read in most of the posts regarding this couple so far is that, in a blatant effort to lessen the negative impact on the wife, very few bloggers have included the entire Reddit post to draw conclusions from:

 

Zreanes

The first thing we have to do is a bit of Red Pill math to understand the context in which this situation takes place. We have a couple that married young by modern standards. Both are 26 and have been married for 2 years (i.e. married at 24).

Furthermore they’d been monogamous for 3 years prior, thus they met and paired up at the age of 21.

This is as much as we know about their history, but in context we’re looking at a guy who in all likelihood married a 24 year old girl for the same feminine conditioned, idealistic reasons he had for pairing up with her at 21.

I don’t have any evidence to support the idea that this guy married his wife due to religious convictions, but I don’t think it’s too far a stretch to presume they had somewhat regular sex in the 3 years prior to marrying.

I also can’t confirm that either party had sex with anyone else prior to their meeting at 21, but if we consider that both likely had average sexual experiences between 18-21 we’re only talking about a window of around 4 years in which either had any opportunity to experience anyone else before they met.

I’m establishing this because if I had to speculate, both are the husband and wife are operating from Adolescent Social Skill Sets, and thus have no real frame of adult reference learned through dating (LTR or STR) with which they can base their expectations in marriage.

However, as we’ll see in a moment, a fem-centric culture is only too willing to fill in the blanks of that lack of social reference for them.

Spreadsheet Guy

A woman’s imagination is the single most useful tool in your Game arsenal.

Every technique, every casual response, every gesture, intimation and subcommunication hinges on stimulating her imagination. Competition anxiety relies on it. DHV (demonstrating higher value) relies on it. Sexual tension (‘gina tingles) relies on it. Call it “Caffeinating the Hamster” if you will, but stimulating a woman’s imaginings is the single most potent talent you can learn in any context of a relationship (LTR, STR, ONS, Plate Spinning.)

Spreadsheet Guy is learning this now no doubt. He’s done what most men do: attempt to litigate with evidence and deductively solve his problem by appealing to his wife’s reason with a token effort to enforce his ‘being in the right’ by exposing her to a marginal amount of dread.

What he fails to account for is that even if she responds with more frequent sex, any sex they do have will be the compromised result of her negotiated obligation, not her genuine, motivated desire.

The frame you enter into monogamy/marriage with sets the tone for your future relationship. Spreadsheet Guy is simply following the male deductive approach to problem solving and making appeals to his wife’s reason by graphically showing her (and now all of the internet) the evidence of his correctness.

Why Women Can’t ‘Just Get It‘

Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women.

It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.

I can’t fault the guy for his effort; he simply hasn’t learned that women never want full disclosure of anything – and particularly anything that shines an unflattering light on them.

Nothing is more gratifying for a woman than to believe she’s figured out a man using her mythical ‘feminine intuition’. Spreadsheet Guy doesn’t give her the option to use her imagination and solve the puzzle – just like most guys who believe the trope that ‘open communication is the key to a good relationship®’ he spells it out for her in no uncertain terms – and with a marginal amount of above-board Dread he expects (I presume) the problem with her sexual frequency will be solved for him.

From The Desire Dynamic:

From a male perspective, and particularly that of an uninitiated beta male, negotiation of desire seems a rational solution to the problem. Men tend to innately rely on deductive reasoning; otherwise known as an “if then” logic stream.

The code is often something like this: I need sex + women have the sex I want + query women about their conditions for sex + meet prerequisites for sex = the sex I want.

One very important element of Spreadsheet Guy’s actions that needs to be understood is the convenient comparisons being made in regard to the transactional nature of sex, and the expectations men (and to a lesser degree women) place on their conditions for sex.

Of course the first feminist retort is that men should never have any expectation under any circumstance of receiving the gift of a woman’s sexuality for any reason other than that she wants to fuck him.

Naturally this becomes problematic under the auspices of marriage wherein a man’s default presumption is that he is, if not entitled to, then certainly can expect to some extent that his wife will have sex with him.

This situation represents an illustration of the great schism between the old order social contract of marriage, wherein a man had a reasonable expectation of sex with his wife, and the new feminine-primary order wherein a man has absolutely no right, expectation or privilege to his wife’s sexuality.

Unfortunately for men the great deception of this schism serves the Feminine Imperative in that it still conveniently convinces men that they can expect sex while simultaneously shaming them for the expectation that feminine-primacy tells them they should expect.

This double-speak is necessary to insuring the certainty of long-term security needs that women’s dualistic sexual strategy demands.

Consider Choreplay: 5 years ago the same female author encourages men to do more dishes and help a woman out with her domestic chores because “nothing’s sexier” than a man who ‘shares’ the housework.

Translation: Perform these tasks and you will be rewarded with the “unadulterated lust” your wife has been reluctant to deliver – i.e. negotiated desire.

5 years later…“Households with a more traditional gender division of labor report higher sexual frequency than households with less traditional gender divisions of labor,”

So the only conclusion we can really draw from this is that women encourage exactly the transactional mentality about sex that they now complain all men feel they are “owed”.

Spreadsheet Guy was caught in this presumptive trap – prior to marriage he’s sold the idea that he can expect his wife to be sexual with him on a regular basis, but only after he’s taken measures to prove that his wife isn’t upholding her end of the marriage bargain is he told that he in fact has absolutely no privilege to his wife’s sexuality under any circumstance – and furthermore that she holds unilateral control over his own sexual fulfillment under penalty of breach of (marriage) contract.

Spreadsheet Wife

As I began earlier, an entire social support network is more than ready to fill in the blanks left by Spreadsheet Wife’s lack of social reference.

The most obvious form of this comes from the comments and encouragement of women and feminized men affirming her prefabricated understanding of ‘what sex should be after marriage’.

Our sex life HAS tapered in the last few months, but isn’t that allowed?

If you need confirmation of the double-speak about sexual entitlement I outlined above you’ll find it in the words of the same woman before and after she’s married.

This is yet one more ready-made social convention for women to default to after she’s secured the provider-male her hypergamy demands in marriage. A woman’s sexual appetites are expected to “taper” off and she should be “allowed” this tapering and have a man understand and accept this fact.

Once again, The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:

For one sex’s sexual strategy to become realized, the other sex’s strategy must be compromised or abandoned entirely.

And again, the Roissy / Heartist Prime Directive of Feminism:

The goal of feminism is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality

After all the back and forth I’ve been reading about this spreadsheet I think it’s time for men to come to terms with how the social contract that used to be marriage has fundamentally changed.

Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace.

The advantages of being single and indefinitely dating non-exclusively (Spinning Plates) or stringing along a series of short term monogamous affairs far outweigh the risks of a lifetime of marriage in which no man should ever expect sex in terms of either genuine desire or even uninspired obligation sex.

In other words, men are entirely powerless to effect any degree of control over their sex lives under the auspices of a now feminine-primary definition of marriage. The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.

In Appreciation I went into detail about how women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate a feminine reality; this situation is a prime example of this.

Women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the risks a man must assume in unilaterally relinquishing any degree of control he might’ve been able to realize over his own sex life – and never to expect he could ever even have that control.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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George
George
7 years ago

jacklabear,

The dentist, LIKE YOU, is a pathetic beta. Your problem is not women. Your problem is your attitude about yourself and where you assume to be in relationship to women.

Retrenched
Retrenched
7 years ago

Rollo, re: the catch 22…

All true. Men are absolutely in a no-win situation here; everything they do is a crime of some sort.

BUT. As Vox has pointed out, another name for a no-win situation is a can’t lose situation. Once you realize that you’re going to be condemned no matter what you do, you decide to do what you wanna do regardless of what women might say, since whatever you do is going to be “wrong” anyway.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Mart, low expectations is the message. Actually NO! expectations is THE message, and it has been broadcast, yea verily trumpeted for two solid generations: Husbands are not permitted to have any expectations. The psychologist is only correct that that is the message. The message itself is extremely wrong and indelibly damaging us all.

water cannon boy
water cannon boy
7 years ago

@ Long Lost Youth That girl has problems. Break up with her. She doesn’t want to lock you down as a baby daddy, she has an impulse for a baby and you’re just a way to do it. One reason I bet is attention. Seeing and hearing the fuss when celebrities get pregnant, she thinks her like will “be better” (more attention) pregnant. Two, bet she thinks she’ll get unconditional love from a baby, which they don’t do. They can’t. They require love, they don’t give it. Also, not to make you paranoid, but keep any and all text or… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

water cannon boy
July 24th, 2014 at 9:49 pm

Short version: NEVER go out with a girl who is crazier than you are.

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Mark Minter
7 years ago

Roosh left a link via twitter to a piece on the manosphere. He described it as part pro and part hit piece. The author took the case of a guy that had been repeatedly fucked around by women and how he found the manosphere as a place where other men shared his experiences and he found support in the community. Then she quoted how the SPLC described the manosphere as “hate that is based on ‘some’ facts.” And I would reply “Quite a lot of facts actually.” And this whole spreadsheet thing has now entered the long list of them.… Read more »

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

“Krauser – 26 lays out of 1000 approaches for a 2.6% success rate SSG – 3 lays out of 27 approaches for a 11% success rate.” Uhmmmm, at least one mitigating factor here… If SSG gets 3 boring, lifeless, reluctant lays from an overweight reluctant housewife per month (36 a year…whoopee?), and Krauser gets 26 lays from better looking, more enthusiastic women, that would affect the calculation a bit, no? If 5 minutes of Alpha is worth 5 years of Beta, perhaps from a male perspective 26 lays of hot, eager women is worth a hundred mediocre to pathetic lays… Read more »

Mart
Mart
7 years ago

@Magent “He’s lost because he is a vindictive loser.” You know that how? –He spreadsheets. “Normal people do not create spreadsheets of their mates’ sexual or other behavior.” Really? Why not if it proves a point? –If you have to prove a point in a sexual relationship, you’re already a loser losing fast. And if you have to prove a point by spreadsheet, you should not be in a relationship with a human being but with a computer. Or an abacus maybe, for the old-fashioned types. “Pre-Marriage when my girlfriend was constantly harping to me that I did not spend… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Minter is correct. She knows, and her deliberate withholding is as conscious as *anything* else she ever does. “She enjoys watching him squirm”

Mart
Mart
7 years ago

jf12 “Husbands are not permitted to have any expectations. The psychologist is only correct that that is the message. The message itself is extremely wrong and indelibly damaging us all.” Nothing in her statement indicates that. What is it with people’s low reading comprehension skills these days? What she says is that both spouses were in the wrong: she for not being honest about her reasons for avoiding sex, he for his passive-aggressive nuclear reaction to her avoidance. The wife then posted the stupid spreadsheet online, making things even worse. In a way, these two deserve each other. It is… Read more »

Detoxinator
Detoxinator
7 years ago

Hey, numnuts, I love you guys, even when you’re lashing out in your red pill transmogrifications. To be expected. Before game, comes HEALTH. Be healthy, and then march forth into game. % Detoxinator Tl;dr… scroll down for link… Emotional distress… divorce… produces cortisol… a very acid substance… friendly environment for cancer cells… …we know that cortisol suppresses immune function… …look at the beliefs driving that emotional state… …there’s a number of patients that don’t want to make it, and use cancer as their checkout point… …the most important question is do you want to live and do you have the… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@Wanderer & @Lost Young Guy: > I had a similar experience that baffled me and was wondering if I could get a little clarity from this community LOL- Happy to help! First off- yes, there are girls out there who want to be a momma real bad. For one of several possible reasons they’ve *got* to scratch the baby itch, but they don’t want to (or don’t understand how to) follow the usual protocol of: 1) find guy, 2) woo him, 3) rope him in to a stable relationship, whether married or common-law, 4) make sure the structural issues for… Read more »

eon
eon
7 years ago

The definition of hypergamy that I have found to be most useful is an original and simple one: seeking someone who is above you. (Notice that it said above “you”, and not above “everybody”.) A woman seeks a man whom she innately perceives to be above her. The reason for this is that submission appears to be a fundamental and innate female trait (which requires enabling conditions in order to be expressed), and a woman cannot look up to a man who is not above her, or follow a man whom she also has to lead. I think that economic… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

I’ve noticed that cliches carping about alleged poor “reading comprehension” are a primary SJW tell. It’s almost like they can’t help themselves. Must have made a big impression on them in their formative years, before their minds fossilized.
As far as I can be bothered to decode it, it seems to indicate the venting of spleen against perceived disagreement, which is in contravention of Herd ethics.

M Simon
7 years ago

Mark Minter
July 25th, 2014 at 12:38 am

Absolutely!

Also see: Better Than Viagra.

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

The story illustrates women’s complete duplicity. She posts the guy’s private correspondence to her….and then complains she’s an “emotional wreck”…nothing like creating drama to calm yourself down is there? the next step would be for the guy to come back from his business trip and just make like nothing happened….like he didn’t know she posted it and it’s blown up on blogs everywhere. But I could never do that…I’d blow up at her for posting a private note. then she’d blow up more…it would lead no where. This woman sounds like a typical Cluster B personality type inappropriately creating drama… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago
M Simon
7 years ago

This bears repeating from this thread: http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/27/women-in-love/comment-page-2/#comment-47879 Anthony Migchels July 25th, 2014 at 8:01 am I think the key is that men are more spiritual and rational and women more emotional and earthly. This explains exactly why ‘men are the “romantics pretending to be realists” and women; vice versa’. ‘Realism’ is earthly, practical. Women are more in tune with what is physically necessary. Men are more in tune with what is desirable. Love is a function of the Spiritual, where all love comes from. Men are in the world to give love, not to receive it. The only way a… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Mark Minter
July 25th, 2014 at 12:38 am

Stress, the immune system and psychiatric illness
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/smi.2460040405/abstract

And one of the biggest stressers is bad family relationships.

Robert What?
Robert What?
7 years ago

As a late 50s guy married to an American woman, I can attest to the veracity of this article. I spent most of my adult life as a hopeless white knight beta. We would go for years of her denying sex to me. But because I was a well trained beta, I didn’t fault her: I faulted myself and was ashamed that I wanted and needed sex and affection. Fortunately I came across sites like this a couple of years ago and my eyes were opened. (Among other changes I finally took up with a mistress to get the sex… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

Magent – “Game. Set. Match.”

LOL! Not what the question was, was it?

Mazrim
Mazrim
7 years ago

Thank you Rollo for continuing to pull back the wizard’s curtain. There really is zero need for a man to marry, even if you have that compulsion to breed. It’s basically a given fact among beta men that sex will decrease after marriage.

MigrantWorker
MigrantWorker
7 years ago

This post responates deeply with me. In a way I am going through a very similar situation right now, except that no spreadsheet is involved. I have been with my wife for just over 10 years, long-distance for the first 4 years, maried for the last 3. I entered the relationship being as beta and politically correct as it gets, and stayed that way for most of that time. Needless to say intimacy between us consisted mostly of cuddling; there would be occasional flareups of passion when (what I now know to be) my alpha side showed, but I would… Read more »

feeriker
feeriker
7 years ago

Normal people do not create spreadsheets of their mates’ sexual or other behavior.

And wives who honor their marriage vows don’t have to suffer humiliations like this. Unfortunately, spreadsheet wife, like most wives in the western world today, isn’t one of those wives. Sometimes extreme situations (about which someone is in epic denial) call for extreme measures.

New Yorker
New Yorker
7 years ago

Sadly, this is a case of a beta who does not understand the difference between passionate and obligated sex. My guess is that even when they were intimate early in the relationship, she never desired him enough to give him her sexual best. Once he was reeled in, there was no reason for her to have sex with him anymore. Luckily, he has figured out the problem before they had children. The best indicator of a woman’s true attraction to you is how passionately she makes love to you. Everything else is just details.

Wanderer
Wanderer
7 years ago

@Tom

Thanks for the perspective brother. It’s mind-blowing to think that type of behavior is fairly common. Discipline must prevail over discipline.

M Simon
7 years ago

Wanderer July 25th, 2014 at 12:46 pm It is all too common. But it is the way women work. Feminism has just made it “right” vs “normal”. When ever the first mate gets in one of her moods and says “I’ll just leave” I tell her “Can I help you pack?” That shuts it right down. Or when she gets too obnoxious and I tell her that I can find a replacement and she says “Well I’ll just get a boyfriend” I tell her “Can I help?” End of the conversation. Even when we were dating and she wanted to… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

“bet his future life’s happiness and fulfillment on her reciprocating his desire.” If so, he (or any such person) made a VERY stupid bet…a bet almost guaranteed to be a looser.

M Simon
7 years ago

BTW if you want to go back in history “Taming of the Shrew” was espousing game 400 years ago.

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
7 years ago

”You wear a top like that with tits like that…damn straight I’m going to be staring at your tits. I think Conan actually played it well, but I think as a standard move one has to realize the standard female playbook is to scold and/or shame. You lose if you accept that shaming frame instead of pushing back hard. You don’t want me staring at your tits, then wear a loose fitting sweater.” Women dress like that to get Good-looking men to approach them. The low-grade women who might be decent-looking will devour the attention of average and below average… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
7 years ago

I’ve even see a woman claim she had been raped by a guy. I was standing right next to the guy, and I asked her when did he raper her.

”Just now.”

”But I’ve been near him for the past 1 hour.”

”Well, he looked at me and I felt unsafe.”

There ya go. Average/ugly man dares to occupy space near a woman = He’s a rapist and possibly a child-molester, too.

Hot girl calls her a cow = ”HEHEHE, HE’S SO CONFIDENT.”

New Yorker
New Yorker
7 years ago

@ Rollo,

I agree that the guy is just too young (unless he was an Alpha…and he wasnt) to learn the difference in sexual experiences.

In terms of the girl, yes, she probably nees to become wiser on how to keep her man happy, but i think in this case, she has so little attraction to him that it does not even matter. She needs to find someone else whom she actually wants to have sex with.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

@ George,
“jacklabear,
The dentist, LIKE YOU, is a pathetic beta piece of shit.”

and two minutes later:

“The dentist, LIKE YOU, is a pathetic beta.”

Hmm, I seem to have hit a nerve here. I wonder what that might be about.
Maybe some projection going on? Have to keep repeating it to convince yourself?

George wrote:
” I earn the money, my wife pays the bills and knows better than to forget.”

IOW, the wife has control of the finances.
That explains a lot.

I suppose ‘George’ would claim that the wife is his Executive Assistant.

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

@ Mart,

I impute nothing. I read what you write. If you communicate poorly, that is on you. By the way, you communicate poorly. Or you don’t know what you are talking about. Maybe both.

“If you have to prove a point in a sexual relationship, you’re already a loser losing fast.”

Oh? Really?

Please, oh Guru, give me an example of the magical relationships you have with women where you are relieved of ever having to prove a point to them about anything.

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

@ DeNihilist

“LOL! Not what the question was, was it?”

Okay, fair enough.

Perhaps I missed your point. Please tell me what YOU thought the question was contained in the post I responded to?

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

Rollo,

I have read you post on Adolescent Social Skill Set (was there more than one) and while it is informative in a general sense, it does not go into a lot of specifics and examples.

Do you have a reference for that or could you elaborate a litte?

emeraldcurtain
7 years ago

This poor bastard is still very young, and has immersed to his upper lip in the putrid realization that most wives, and certainly his, ‘love’ their husbands in the manner that a retailer values its trucks and distribution warehouses. And now he’s no doubt watching his very personal pain ridiculed and redistributed through almost every major media outlet on the planet. Ouch. Almost unbelievable to witness the lack of Emotional Intelligence displayed by commenters (on Reddit, not here) who thought that he did this to try to win her affection back. Nope. I’m sure its no coincidence that he sent… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

jacklabear, Yea, you hit a nerve. Actually YOU didn’t, your assumptions did. Just because my wife pays the bills doesn’t mean she controls the finances. I provide her an allowance. I control the money. Insulting me, picking at my personal life by making shallow assumptions and cheap shots does not strengthen any argument you may be trying to make. It only weakens whatever argument you wish to make. It indicates you personally believe whatever points I have made but you cannot accept them, so you attack me personally. Don’t shoot the messenger. if you cannot accept reality, one option you… Read more »

MikePhil
MikePhil
7 years ago

@walawala; Yes, I too notice how a private matter between two adults became a public matter through publishing that spreadsheet online. Both parties are going to be tried in the court of the public opinion, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts that he comes out of it a lot worse. I’m guessing that he has a bag packed already, as he should. Shame he invested in a house with this woman, because unless she magically discovers more gas in her sexual gas tank, I’m predicting a) he sells the house and leaves or, worse b) he stays locked into a… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Magent – I have no question. LOL. It appears that you have two letters in your screen name spelled incorrectly. I do not attribute it to a failure to communicate. You do that very well.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

@George
“Don’t shoot the messenger. if you cannot accept reality, one option you could choose is shooting yourself.”

So George, what is this reality based message that you think I should shoot myself over?

George
George
7 years ago

M.Simon, “I’ll just leave” I tell her “Can I help you pack?”…“Well I’ll just get a boyfriend” I tell her “Can I help?” …Even when we were dating and she wanted to “try out” other guys I would tell her “If you can find some one better I’m all for it.” Funny. Women find that kind of self confidence very attractive But of course if you are hanging here you know that.” All great stuff. Love it. My wife was bragging about some fat guy of much lower social status staring at her ass the other day. She made this… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

jacklabear

So George, what is this reality based message that you think I should shoot myself over?

Any will do, just pick one. Apparently you have problems with all of them.

ropeyarns
7 years ago

@Wanderer I could only advise you to analyze each situation on it’s own merits. With HB9#1 I would ask you first how old she is and how does her financial situation compare to yours? Maybe she was so desperate to start a “relationship” with you because she was ready to climb off of the cock carousel and settle down. She was done with the Alpha fucks and felt it was time to move on to Beta bucks. This sounds like a situation where she thought you were susceptible to falling HARD for her if she gave it up. Were you… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
7 years ago

Rollo, Thanks for stopping by on my site and reading my two cents on the topic. Husband Tracks Sex on Spreadsheet: Does Wife Owe Him More? I appreciate the different perspective on this topic. I’d like to comment on your thought: In other words, men are entirely powerless to effect any degree of control over their sex lives under the auspices of a now feminine-primary definition of marriage. The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.… Read more »

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

@George Right. So someone who doesn’t agree with your points is a “pathetic beta piece of shit” and should shoot themselves. “It indicates you personally believe whatever points I have made but you cannot accept them…” No, I don’t personally believe that it is a good idea to sue the dentist. I personally believe it is a very bad idea. It is also very inconsistent with your Super Alpha posturing. That’s why I called you out on it. I also have a problem with your manosphere and Rollo bashing. I personally believe that Rollo and other writers and commenters have… Read more »

Anon2
Anon2
7 years ago

OK, I have a game question : Met a woman at a happy hour, isolated her, the vibe was good and she was throwing all the signals. We kissed after about 2 hours of talking, and she gave me her number. She is about 10 years younger than me (me 40, she 30 or so). Looks-wise, a 7 or so. But she works at an unimpressive job at Nordstroms, vs. my high-level career. We departed very friendly. BUT, then this happened. I did not contact her for 4 days, then sent a text. We exchanged 1-2 texts, but she didn’t… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

eon “So, whether or not “hypergamy is innate” depends on the definition of “hypergamy” that is being used, which George did not provide, and condescending (see the end of his first comment) assertions in ALL CAPS require more than “cuz I said so”.” I agree, there is confusion concerning what definition we are using. Thanks for bringing this up. It is important we are on the same page in the dictionary so to speak. I am using the word hypergamy as Webster defines it – “marriage into an equal or higher chaste or social group”. This is the only definition… Read more »

strauMan (@strauMan)
7 years ago

@Lost Young Guy….GTFO

Marriage? What about cohabitation or LTR in general? Move in with a woman, well you’re married without the paper as far as dynamics are concerned.

Screen your ladies, gents.

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

“Essentially a good marriage is one in which both parties behave as, and have the tacit understanding of, a non-married or dating couple.” Good strategy. “If ever I get married, I’ll certainly try to forget the fact.”- Algernon in The Importance of Being Earnest LOL “She hasn’t had the experience / maturity to know how vitally important her sexual frequency and intensity is to a man..” While I suppose there are women who know and misuse this information, I’m inclined to believe the above is the case here and is likely the case in many, many, many other instances. Most… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Rollo, Your point about chores is spot on. Other than “man stuff” I never do any. And if she misbehaves I will not even do “man stuff”. Unless it is costing me money. But Dr. J makes an excellent overall point: Thus, this is not women vs. men… It is women vs. women, with men caught in the cross-fire. Your point about “keeping them anxious” about the competition is correct. I won’t tell you all the things I do in that regard, but I do work that one VERY HARD. All the time. My Dad did the same to my… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
7 years ago

Rollo, The only power benefit I can conceive of for men in marriage, that beats “plate spinning”, is a Britney Spears / Kevin Federline situation. Essentially, that completely flips the traditional marriage model – where the woman is providing resource value/power to get an attractive man. Essentially, this is pretty much “pimp game”. I’m not sure that level of game/attractiveness is a reality for most men though. Therefore, having the power to go into a marriage without resources…and walk away with the kids and $20,000/mo child support happens for women way more often than men. Nevertheless, it should be no… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Let me add (and you regulars have heard this before) I got taught game by my first GF. At age 18. It took me about 6 years to get reasonably good at it.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Dr. Jeremy, Kudos for identifying the correct target. “This husband does not have the power to influence his wife’s desire to have sex with him when he wants it. In the primary definition of the word, he is impotent – unable to take effective action; helpless or powerless.” “both the husband creating the spreadsheet and the wife posting it online is a power struggle over defining whether sex is owed (a form of legitimate power).” “female-centric advice has attempted to shift the power dynamic even more in favor of the wife, by suggesting that the husband should not even have… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

Mr. “jacklabear “ I am all very new to this, discovered the “manosphere” and this site a few weeks back. Please review the following closely. Perhaps you will find some answer. Read my response concerning our disagreement about the dentist carefully. I think you will find the answer you need there. You stated, “@George. I have felt that your comments were a bit ‘off ‘ for a while now. But it wasn’t until a comment you made at the end of the last thread (Separating Values) that you lost all credibility with me.” Then subsequently, “So I ask you again,… Read more »

water cannon boy
water cannon boy
7 years ago

Britney had a slammin’ body at that time though. I think the low SMV, professional rivals of the higher SMV women will really underestimate how many men will feel very at ease with the idea of not ever getting married. The marriageable, successful woman that’s less attractive than the potential husband has already been going on with the large number of black women that are way over weight but use their job, degree, salary, as their ‘what makes me desirable’ list. It doesn’t work. When more and more women ask me “well don’t want to get married someday?’ they’ll start… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
7 years ago

@jf12 I appreciate your feedback. To clarify: – I suggest the husband finds out what his wife likes AND ONLY use it as a reward. Many times, the problem with men is that they are simply “nice” to their wives, hoping she reciprocates. Unfortunately, doing anything pleasing for her, when she is indifferent or cold, will only reward and increase that coldness.So, I only suggest he does “more of that” to reward her after she has pleased him in some way. – I do not insist that the wife will respond properly for being treated properly. I insist that she… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

Anon2

“She : I’m sorry, but I thought about it and I am not interested”

and then

“She : Oh, ok. BTW, worst kiss ever.”

Do not pursue this girl.

Work on collecting and then spinning plates.

Anon2
Anon2
7 years ago

George,

I agree on not pursuing.

But I am unclear on what I did wrong, and why she did a total 180. Perhaps things went too far in just the two hours from meeting…. I don’t know.

Plus, a rejection is even better when I learn something useful from it for the future.

M Simon
7 years ago

Anon2 July 25th, 2014 at 10:41 pm You may have done nothing wrong. The main strategy I used when I was playing the field was: “Sleep with me naked. No sex. I like the body contact.” That was easy if she was running hot for me. And absolutely do not have sex. About 3/4 came back for more. And got it all. Take advantage of those running hot the very same day/night. The really interested will sort themselves out. So I only got women who were very interested in me. Those just having an impulse never came back. But those… Read more »

eon
eon
7 years ago

George, “I am using the word hypergamy as Webster defines it – ‘marriage into an equal or higher chaste or social group’.” Under this definition, one cause may well be competition among women, exacerbated by conditioning, which could be viewed as a continuation of shoes -> purses -> McMansions -> higher caste (if they let her in). However, to be valid, the claim of no genetic component must account for other possibilities. Another cause of this type of hypergamy would be provisioning, which is definitely genetic. In the past, especially during difficult times, status was much more highly correlated with… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

I found this site interesting: http://www.reuniting.info/content/oxytocin-fidelity-and-sex how could “the love hormone” make men subconsciously keep their distance from attractive, novel mates? The answer is fascinating. Before we consider how men who want to stay happily mated might keep their oxytocin at optimum levels, let’s briefly consider the evolutionary roots and biological underpinnings of pair bonding itself. They bear upon the answer. ============== I have seen this in myself. When the first mate properly bonds (not often) I lose all interest in other women. Given how I have lived my life I find this state interesting. What is also interesting is… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago
titanic
7 years ago

@Anon2

I think you’ll be more successful if you text sooner after leaving her. Even that night. Not, “it was nice meeting you”, but something that continues the interaction/conversation you were having. Consider it a venue change.

titanic
7 years ago

@Rollo Equality or complementarity, the basis remains the same; good marriages are the ones in which the couple retain the sexual anxiety and urgency of being single. This is gold. Advice that should be given to all marrying men. Some of the better mainstream relationship advice comes near this (“you should remain your husband’s/wife’s boyfriend/girlfriend”). Unfortunately most feminized men will take the mainstream advice as “I should keep buying flowers for her” or some other Bruno Mars self-defeating behavior. Your description of a good marriage implies real difficulty for the Christian husband who follows Dalrock’s strictures of not being able… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Dr J, I maintain that you are very dissimulating. Doing nice things is obviously what “people” tend to like, and it makes the most sense that their own husbands KNOW that their wives do respond to niceness, when they respond to anything. The problem in these cases is 99.44% of the time that the wife isn’t responding properly to *anything*, so withholding attention or niceties is working and isn’t going to work. And you have to know it. “A dark triad bad boy uses extinction and intermittent reward/reinforcement” No. A dark triad man uses fear. Danger. Badness. Evil. Death, disease,… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

correction “withholding attention or niceties isn’t working”

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Compare these two scenarios:
The loving husband stops bringing flowers home every day, only bringing them after she has sex. This is the OPPOSITE of bad boy.

The woman brings a food offering timidly to the bad boy hoping he’ll enjoy it. “Good girl”, he says, “you’ve almost earned the right to have your table bouquet centerpiece again. I’ll bring it back tomorrow from where I’m holding it hostage, but first …”

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Typical advice that doesn’t work: “Keep the Big Stick in the closet. Actually, forget that you have a Big Stick. It won’t work, plus, you might get arrested. So, just talk a little louder instead.”

Advice that does work: “For a while, wave the Big Stick at her every single time she thinks about stepping out of line.”

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

Nice to see I was wrong about Georgy’s anti-social and transgressive tendencies, lol. This thread has devolved into something uninteresting. I’ll be back when it’s not. Thankfully, I spend most of my time in the real world. Just have to make one minor point. The person who seemed to find my description of the 21 yr old PR dime I ended up fucking as a “light skinned Sade” redundant, wow, I just have to wonder about some idiots online. In fact, Ino (her full name was Innocenzia) was LIGHTER skinned than Sade, who is a light skinned, half-black woman to… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

re: wrong love. Although usually couched by counselors in terms of love, this take on talking a man down from his high horse focuses on happiness. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/some-assembly-required/201407/would-you-rather-be-right-or-would-you-rather-be-happy There is of course the definite cart-before-horse fallacy “If you would be willing to be wrong, then you would be happy.” But the real cognitive problem is that these professionals, trained first and foremost in abuse recognition, are *advocating* for wrong love / wrong happiness, but only when it is the man who is being abused/neglected/etc. Even when the only power the man has is that he can tell himself he’s right, counselors… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

re: right vs happy article. BTW as difficult as it ought to be to believe that a pastor, of all people, would advocate for being happy instead of being right (i.e. hedonism), I’m sad to say it’s not unbelievable in today’s climate.

M Simon
7 years ago

Being right makes me happy. I’m an engineer by trade.

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

“Essentially, she will have been constructing a narrative where he’s the one who is being selfish and unreasonable. …” “He knows this is all bullshit, but always seems to come out looking stupid when they argue about it. Possibly, he’s even started to wonder if his perception is inaccurate.” “The spreadsheet lets him know that he’s not going insane. …” This. Women, with their solipsism and basic nature will try to deflect responsibility for the problem onto the man. They will use emotional outbursts and try to distort the facts to make themselves look they are in the right. Men,… Read more »

Mart
Mart
7 years ago

A female equivalent of the spreadsheet dude:
http://guyism.com/humor/wife-sex-diary-better-than-sex-spreadsheet.html

jf12, you sound like Ted Bundy (or wannabe). So how many bodies do you have in your basement already?

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Mart, I don’t even have a basement. At the time we bought it, my wife liked ranch houses on slabs.

re: Spreadsheet Gals. Regarding women’s me-too-ism with regard to sex and/or sex complaints, I have to say I’m well past being amused by I-got-one-too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/sinead-oconnor-sexuality_n_5610545.html

What you got is vestigial, at best.

Mart
Mart
7 years ago

Where do you bury them then?

Lost Young Guy
Lost Young Guy
7 years ago

Well guys, I finally broke it off with her last night. Told her to come to my house “just to chill” and I ended up banging her twice (I also videotaped it btw, just in case). When she was on her way out, I simply told her, “We shouldn’t see each other any more. So don’t reach out to me no more.” She flipped completely. She started crying and saying things like, “But I never did anything nothing wrong!! This is ridiculous! WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS!?!?” On the inside I laughed because I knew she was conning me and… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago
Reply to  Lost Young Guy

Women can get bonded by sex. But it has to be steady. About every 3 days or oftener. Most women will not keep up that pace for long. They want to keep their options open.

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

@ Mart,

Warms my heart to know how well I had you pegged.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@M Simon re: pair-bonding article.

Good find! It makes perfect sense that beta males are the only members of the species who typically feel extreme romantic love. We’ve been bred for it.

M Simon
7 years ago
Reply to  jf12

jf12, It is not just betas. I like the feeling myself. My game generally was designed to find women who were at least in some measure capable of reciprocating. For as long as they could do it. What I have found is that the limit is generally in the best case about six months. My guess is that women don’t like it for too long because it limits their options. As I said up thread it requires surrender on the part of both parties. The closest common cultural reference for those who may remember is Nell in the Dudley Do… Read more »

titanic
7 years ago

@M Simon

To be clear, that’s not my advice … it’s Dalrock’s … see http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/slow-your-roll/

Your dad sounds like a cool guy to hang out with … growing up in a single mother household in the 80s/90s guys like that were, let’s say, frowned upon. I was literally scared of “chauvinist” men like your dad.

M Simon
7 years ago

titanic July 27th, 2014 at 9:37 am My Dad was fun to hang out with. But it took me about 20 years after I left home to resolve some issues I had with him. When he finally got it he apologized profusely. A mensch. When he would visit I’d often ask (when my Mom was not near by) if he was still getting any. He would grin and say, “Yes.” Up until he died. My Mom is still alive at 94. I’m very lucky. I’m old enough to be able to talk sex and relationship a little with Mom. She… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

titanic July 27th, 2014 at 9:37 am Read the dalrock. Not my cuppa. I don’t believe in sin. I believe in error. Which can be corrected. What dalrock describes can only be made to work if the female in question wants to be bonded and will work EXTRA HARD to maintain the bond. That is very, very, rare. Never came across it. At least not long term. Christianity could be made to work – with several wives. But that is no longer allowed. What women HAVE to understand for what dalrock describes is their nature . And that is not… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Also where I differ from a lot of the dalrock commentary is the laying down of rules. Women can be ruled. But not by laying down rules. You rule them by making them WANT to follow your lead. The whole situation changes once women have options The Christian culture described there can only work where women for the most part are sequestered and have limited options. When they have many options they need to be convinced you are the best option. Not the best available. The BEST. Everything I do with the first mate is designed towards that end. Even… Read more »

Mart
Mart
7 years ago

Congrats, Magent.

Then again, it is easy to spot a non-sociopath in the sea of sociopathy, which this forum is, so maybe it is a smaller feat than you imagine.

Either way, be proud of yourself all the same.

Nathan
Nathan
7 years ago

an interesting take on the legalistic, rule centric problem of our one-sided modern society: http://youtu.be/ncq4x_6E-ZY

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
7 years ago

Look, you guys feel as if you are victims because women charge extra expensive for what you guys want. You don’t feel like women have too much power. Its that you are paying alimony, child-support, dating, gifts and what not to women to get access to women who aren’t even remarkable-looking. Men don’t like women. Not at all. If it wasn’t for the sex most men wouldn’t bother talking to women, so if you want to make this society fair.. 1)invent a pill capable of providing the pleasure of sex. No more dates, no more relationships, no more beta-orbiting or… Read more »

Magent
Magent
7 years ago

Mart,

“Then again, it is easy to spot a non-sociopath in the sea of sociopathy…”

As easy as it is to spot a pseudo-intellectual poser who conflates snide with wise. You think anyone really cares about the opinion of someone who cannot even defend his own statements?

Keep typing away your snark little comments , buddy. Sound and fury and all that old chap.

Cheers.

Nathan
Nathan
7 years ago

Hi Rollo, Just wanted to say that you are changing the culture. Fathom the difference you are making. It brought me and many others out of depression. And showed us a real way to improve our lives. Thank You I was reading Marie-Louise von Franz (I know you do not like Jung, bear with me), from her book, The Cat A Tale of Feminine Redemption – “Generally, when one is in a terrific emotional upheaval, then one has sudden insights. They do together. How is the cat, the dark feminine, connected with that? What must women do to help men… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Nathan
July 27th, 2014 at 8:50 pm

Liked your bit on the Hopi. It fits with something I wrote:

Behavioral Sink Behavior And Thermodynamics

water cannon boy
water cannon boy
7 years ago

The joke went over Glenn’s head.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Hey Rollo, I don’t know if you’ve added this study to your pile yet:
http://fusion.net/modern_life/story/nice-girls-finish-study-shows-891658

Men prefer nice girls. Women dis-prefer nice guys.

Gurit E. Birnbaum, Tsachi Ein-Dor, Harry T. Reis, and Noam Segal. 2014.
Why Do Men Prefer Nice Women? Gender Typicality Mediates the Effect of Responsiveness on Perceived Attractiveness in Initial Acquaintanceships. Pers Soc Psychol Bull, 0146167214543879, first published on July 25, 2014 doi:10.1177/0146167214543879.

http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/07/11/0146167214543879.abstract

LiveFearless
7 years ago

Rollo Tomassi’s The Desire Dynamic chapter has become famous young and the young at heart !!!

M Simon
7 years ago

LiveFearless
July 28th, 2014 at 12:17 am

Well that was interesting. Could you explain it. In simple language and short sentences? Who was the narrator? Was it bits of sound pieced together? Or some one actually reading?

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

I thought I posted this here but I guess not.
http://www.newsweek.com/study-finds-men-nice-women-not-other-way-around-261269?piano_d=1

Birnbaum et al find that men prefer nice, but women do not prefer nice.

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@ WaterCannonboy – No it did not “miss the joke”, rather I didn’t spend the time to even get what you are talking about. The comment stream is getting interesting again though, particularly the stuff on Dalrock from M Simon and some if12 stuff, but I don’t really invest here beyond getting information and sharing my experiences in a real way. To even figure out what you are talking about is an investment I don’t want to make, yeah? My life is in the real world, not on comment sections of manosphere blogs. One of the huge wake up calls… Read more »

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