Separating Values

value

Every so often I’m in the midst of considering an idea, sometimes even typing away at a draft, when the internet gods hand me the divine gift of an example of exactly the concept I’m attempting to make a bit more concrete. Today was one of those days.

59 year old Robin Korth made an effort in feigned indignation on the Huffington Post last Saturday. I can’t imagine most of my readers haven’t been made aware of it already since this story is making the rounds in the manosphere; Return of Kings and Chateau Heartiste were predictably first to the punch. Please do, at the very least, skim through these posts (they’re not long); they provide many more examples of red pill wisdom than just the points I’ll make today.

These blogs have already done an admirable job in dissecting Ms. Korth’s feminist boilerplate, male-shaming efforts so I don’t really feel the need to toss another log on that fire. Briefly though, Robin was upset that a 55 year old man she met online found her body beyond his threshold of physical arousal – in other words, she didn’t pass the boner test for him.

For all her self-induced self-perceptions of what she believed men should find attractive arousing about her, the man, Dave, was completely honest with her about his evaluation of her sexual market value. But as I’ve stated in prior threads, women say they want honesty, but they never want full disclosure.

Dave went so far as to make a counter offer, by making suggestions she might better present herself in a more sexy context for him to increase her arousal potential:

We talked for some time more, my head reeling at the content of the conversation. He spoke of special stockings and clothing that would “hide” my years. He blithely told me he loved “little black dresses” and strappy shoes. He said my hair was not long and flowing as he preferred, but that was okay because it was “cool looking.” I felt like a Barbie Doll on acid as I listened to this man. He was totally oblivious to the viciousness of his words. He had turned me into an object to be dressed and positioned to provide satisfaction for his ideas of what female sexual perfection should be.

He explained that now that I knew what was required, we could have a great time in the bedroom. I told him no. I would not hide from my own body. I would not wear outfits to make my body more “tolerable.” I would not undress in the dark or shower with the bathroom door closed. I would not diminish myself for him — or for anyone. My body is beautiful and it goes along with my mind and my heart.

I’m just going to take a moment here to point out a few notable observations.

Initially I assumed Dave was attempting to establish Frame, and maybe in a Beta way he was, but in doing so Dave is negotiating desire – his own desire, and this is equally ineffective when men do it from an advantage because eventually a man will realize he’s compromised his genuine passion and the woman will grow resentful.

Also, Dave makes the mistake of appealing to Robin’s reason – an obvious Beta tell. Like a properly conditioned Beta, Dave lays everything on the table in full disclosure. Most feminized men internalize the popular notion that women want to know and discuss the sexual things “they like” in order to pragmatically and rationally fulfill each other’s “needs.”

It’s counterintuitive for men to express what they like sexually, especially when this trope is taught to them as part of their ‘open communication’ (i.e. “the key to a great relationship”®) sensitivity training. What Robin was really upset with was less about his words and more about her hypergamous filters being tricked by a guy who ‘just doesn’t get it’ that a woman has to want to please a man.

Genuine, unnegotiated desire doesn’t work rationally or pragmatically.

If Dave had read The Gift he would know that buying for, or requesting that a woman wear lingerie is a Beta push. A woman buys and wears lingerie to please a Man for whom she has a desire to please – anything else is a form of negotiating desire.

However, Ms. Korth’s example is one of a commonly solipsistic woman who’s default presumption is that pleasing anyone but herself is self-diminishing servitude.

I can’t say as this comes as a shock – most properly conditioned women now feel that just cooking for a man is a form of submitting to, and appreciating him for, his authority (cooking has become the expectation of men to prove their worth in a fem-centric role reversal). Under the doctrine of egalitarian equalism any act of anything less than mutually autonomous independence has the potential to be turned into (the perception of) patriarchal domineering.

Conflating Values

One of the major problems women have, and more than even some red pill men have, is the conflation of sexual market value with their intrinsic personal value as a human being.

It needs to be emphasized that while personal value is influential in sexual market value, SMV is distinct from your value as a human being. I’m stressing this because, in the age Disney Princess empowerment, this conflation of the two has become a go-to social convention; and not just for women.

What Korth suffers from is presuming her personal value is her sexual market value.

It’s disruptive to her self-perceptions and ego-investments when that presumption is challenged by a man who doesn’t want to fuck her for reasons based on the intrinsic value she believes she’s entitled to by virtue of maturity and imaginings of self-sufficiency. Just as women aren’t aroused by men’s own self-concepts of virtuousness and aspirations of higher purpose, men aren’t aroused by whatever ephemeral self-perceptions a woman may have.

From the Timeline of the Professional Woman:

This is the overreach of the feminine imperative – to attempt to thwart men’s biological predispositions by convincing them what they should find attractive and arousing in women. This becomes all the more ironic when you consider that the women the imperative would have men be attracted to are masculinized versions of  women.

Feminist ‘equalism’ is always shocked that evolved human biology and its feral predispositions won’t cooperate with it, but such is the frustration with any social order or ideology which fails to account for the realities of human being’s natural states and biological imperatives. There is a conceived, higher-order expectation that, through freewill, conviction or some other learned, reasoned means, people will rise above the influence of their base nature and comply with what they believe will make for an idealized existence.

What egalitarian equalisim, struggles against is basic human instinct, nature and impulse.

Sexual Market Value vs. Personal Value

After two years since publishing it, my SMV chart continues to be a benchmark for manosphere / red pill theory and it’s extended beyond whatever humble hopes I had for it. However, it’s always been very contentious because it places a valuation on men and women according to the dictates of the sexual marketplace:

[…] however for our purposes today it is important to note that these valuations are meant to encompass an overall sexual value based on both long and short term breeding prospects, relational desirability, male provisioning capacity, female fertility, sexual desirability and availability, etc. et. al.. Your milage may vary, but suffice it to say the ten scale is meant to reflect an overall value as individuated for one sex by the other. Outliers will always be an element of any study, but the intent is to represent general averages here.

When you attempt to quantify any aspect of human ‘value’ you can expect to have your interpretations of  it to be offensive to various people on the up or down side of that estimate. There is simply no escaping personal bias and the offense that comes from having one’s self-worth attacked, or even confirmed for them.

The first criticism I’ve come to expect is usually some variation about how evaluating a person’s SMV is “dehumanizing”, people are people, and have intrinsic worth beyond just the sexual. To which I’ll emphatically agree, however, this dismissal only conveniently sidesteps the realities of the sexual marketplace.

Again, sexual market value is not personal value. Personal value, your value as a human being however one subjectively defines that, is a definite component to sexual market value, but separating the two requires an often uncomfortable amount of self-analysis. And, as in Ms. Korth’s experience here, this often results in denial of very real circumstances, as well as a necessary, ego-preserving, cognitive dissonance from that reality.

Denial of sexual market valuation is a psychological insurance against women losing their controlling, sexual agency in their hypergamous choices.

You Shouldn’t Know This Stuff!

I recently read a story on the Red Pill Reddit forum about a guy who’s girlfriend discovered my book he’d been reading. She began picking through various sections and, expectedly, got really pissed off at the chapters on SMV (the chart in particular). They both discussed the parts she’d read and she admitted she wanted to read the whole thing, but from what they talked about she confessed that there wasn’t really anything she disagreed with.

Her words were, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”

It wasn’t that she was irritated by the sections of the book, but rather the fact that men might become aware of women’s sexual strategies as laid bare by the SMV sections and chart.

In the most visceral, biological sense, the primary value of women to men is sex. Almost a year ago I was involved in a lively blog discussion about how men sexually size up women within the space of a glance. Either a woman has sexual potential or she doesn’t. Women like to complain that this is sexual objectification, but men’s brains are literally wired to do exactly this. When we see an arousing woman it triggers the parts of our brains involved with tool manipulation – that’s a feature, not a bug, of the male sexual response.

That may seem shallow or dehumanizing, but just because sexual valuation is a prime value for women it doesn’t mean it’s their only value – in fact far from it. However, there is a distinction between the two, but there’s is a definite utility to women’s interest in maintaining their hypergamous selectivity when they conflate the two together, or deny / reject the validity of sexual market value altogether.

This is what Ms. Korth, and countless other women who share her mindset, has illustrated here. The reality is that a man, Dave, is separating her sexual market value from her estimation of her personal self-worth (inflated and exaggerated as it may be). Robin mistakenly believes her self-impression should be her sexual market value, but this simply isn’t, and never will be, the case.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Badpainter
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Beta guy messed up so what? Why didn’t she in all her wisdom not know he was beta? Still she should be grateful he made any effort. The same way a 25 yr old beta is grateful for a missionary pity fuck. She is not in a position to complain.

A strong independent woman would taken it in stride, lughed it off, and not run to the keyboard to shame the guy.

D-Man
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Pretzel of Hypergamy laid clean and bare, Rollo. If the guy is wrong (and presumed defective) for not wanting to fuck her, then swimsuit models are equally wrong for not wanting to fuck regular dudes who think they have well developed internal value. I used to think Hypergamy was mostly a young woman’s thing – a tool for securing both the seed they want and the provisioning for their offspring, even if the two come from different sources – but this 59 year old woman, who needs neither seed nor money from a man, is showing us that the kernel… Read more »

D-Man
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Why then Robin, do your hottest sisters and daughters like to fuck INSANE MISOGYNISTS and not the line-toe-ers?

RebootedMale
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Remember, a woman can decline sex even mid-act with no shame. How dare a man get into bed with a woman and not seal the deal?

There is absolutely an entitlement double-standard, but when does the feminine imperative ever play fair?

DeNihilist
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Hell, are some of you guys this blind? “Dave” is not interested in boning the older broads, he likes the younger ones. But as most men my age will eventually concede, especially after a good water boarding, the young ones motivate the dick, but rarely the brain.

He was looking for an older broad that he could communicate with! He did not ever want to have sex with Robin. But her, being a relevant woman, pushed him to bang her so that she could tell herself that she was still; beautiful!

What’s that old saying? Reality is a bitch!

Idiot!

Ben
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@Martelll July 17th, 2014 at 9:35 am “She took it personal. I mean do you guys really think she would take it any other way? Women feel entitled to attraction from men no matter what.” Get over yourself. This blog, like pretty much the rest of manosphere, is about guys’ feewings being hurt cos women don’t want to sleep with them. Comment after comment is about personal experiences of men who take it personally day in and out. Why harp on women when you are doing exactly the same thing? One could even say, based on the sea of complaints… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Pure perfection –

” I have no comment”

“These men are misogynists and are insane”

Idiot!

DeNihilist
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From Rollo’s link – “Another avenue to explore would be showing images of men’s wives and girlfriends in bikinis, Raison said. He predicts the objectifying effect would not happen in this context.”

BZZZZZZ – WRONG!

I objectify my mate of 30 years each and every day. It’s called being in love you fool!

DeNihilist
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David W – ” I doubt that this is true, but after a google search, I was unable to find consensus papers from, say, psychiatric/psychological/scientific bodies, affirming that evolutionary psychology’s take on male/female sexual interaction is valid per x% majority of the experts.”

Never forget, that continental drift was not accepted til all the older geologists died…

that ulcers being caused by bacteria was laughed at by the consensus…

that Einstein said that it would only take one person to prove him wrong, not a consensus….

consensus is a four letter word in science.

agent p
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Robin Korth…
“I have no comment”

But I am going to comment anyhow, “they are misogynists etc etc etc..”

rolling my eyes.

jf12
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@Ben, you probably noticed that more than a couple of male commenters here took Dave to task for apparently leading Robin on. But those (us) commenters didn’t fit your perception so you chose to ignore us.

jf12
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re: bikinis. Ever notice that the word “pants” is plural? It’s “a pair of pants” because we have two legs. It’s not “a pair of skirt” by the way, but it is “a pair of bikini bottoms”.

Sohowcome it’s not “a pair of bikini tops” or “a pair of bras”?

Musings while I enjoy my second-favorite pair of underwear. Ahh.

Glenn
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@ Rollo – I saw those comments too. Besides claiming that his attraction to younger women came from porn, many also posited that he must have erectile dysfunction – and virtually all the women on the comment thread seem to egging Korth on. A number of them went on about what Dave must look like saying, “Has he looked at himself in a full length mirror” and other such comments. They seem to miss that Korth wanted to bang him so there was no attraction issue about Dave’s appearance. Others on this thread and there, and Korth herself, talk about… Read more »

Ben
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jf12, What “perception” would that be? You did not take Dave to task for acting shitty with his pointless and cruel advice for her, nor for leading her on. If I recall, you took him to task for not doing “something” in bed, and then (or before maybe) diluted it with saying that “somebody should have done something” in that bed, or words to that effect. But maybe that’s what you meant by “leading her on,” so fine. My beef with Dave is not that he did not do anything in bed. If he can’t, he can’t, and that’s that.… Read more »

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jf12
July 17th, 2014 at 3:28 pm

That got me to thinking about what the first mate calls her chest.

“The girls.” But if I refer to a woman as a girl she goes ballistic.

New Yorker
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Basically, Dave is a beta with no frame. Due to his insecurities, he picked an obviously unattractive woman who would overlook his lack of masculinity. When she wanted him to engage in some polite sex with her (I agree that she definitely did not want to go crazy on him), he remembered that he does not like her. Like a beta, he then tried to explain himself and appealed to her reason. Not only did he waste her time, but he spoke to a woman as if he was speaking to a man….and that gets women confused.

Glenn
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@ Ben – Have you actually read any of the content on this site? It certainly seems like you are utterly ignorant of intersexual dynamics and rather are stuck in a gynocentric worldview, shaped utterly by female imperatives. Most of us here won’t argue with you because we know that many betas, white knights, manginas (male feminists) and tradcons will never let go of their pathetic and self-destructive ideas. We’re not out to change you. Rollo lays out the evidence and ideas here and some men bite and others don’t. So your hectoring is just amusing. It’s also nice to… Read more »

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New Yorker July 17th, 2014 at 4:40 pm “Not only did he waste her time, but he spoke to a woman as if he was speaking to a man….and that gets women confused.” You make no sense. He would not be speaking to a man in a similar context unless they were gay. And he is not. The information he gave her is something a man can share with his buddies to help them improve their game, but not something a man should ever tell a woman, particularly one with whom he was to be intimate, successfully or not. What’s… Read more »

D-Man
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvO-dozg1s

Dave Grohl just gets it. Skip to 2:45

Ben
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Glenn:

Cool story, bro.

jf12
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@Ben, re: “What “perception” would that be?” This one: “Get over yourself. This blog, like pretty much the rest of manosphere, is about guys’ feewings being hurt cos women don’t want to sleep with them. Comment after comment is about personal experiences of men who take it personally day in and out. Why harp on women when you are doing exactly the same thing? One could even say, based on the sea of complaints here, that guys feew entitled to attraction from women no matter what. But that can’t be, right? Cos guys are Manly ‘n Stuff (TM), and never… Read more »

jf12
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@M Simon, re: girls.

My 64 yr old wife doesn’t seem to mind me talking about girls provided they are girls, e.g. teens up through about mid20s nowadays. But you’re right if I refer to an older woman as a girl she gets kinda rankled. It is kinda weird the way she seems to believe I could only view an older woman as a potential sexual partner, now that I think about it.

George
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@Glenn

Robin Korth – “She is not hideous”??? compared to what?

This girl?

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/d3/d8/a5d3d8fa2e70b42661d69397977cebc3.jpg

This girl?

http://sadlovequotesonline.blogspot.com/2011/04/hot-sexydesisizzling-beautiful-n_8150.html

Or this?

http://man-over-board.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ugly-women-4.jpg

Everything is relative….relative to what you accept or the level to which you depreciate yourself.

jf12
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New Yorker is right about Dave speaking as a *beta* male to Robin, which as Ben rightly pointed out is way too girlified.

I think we all can agree that comfort game is ineffective “let’s just snuggle”. Don’t say we didn’t mention it.

Ben
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jf12,
You don’t get it.

My point is that if men are to make headways in relationships with women, they need not fear critical self-reflection. Isn’t that what game is about, at least in part? But as it is evident on this thread, self-reflection of the critical kind is in a woefully short supply.

I know it is easier and more fun to unload. It often helps, too. But continuous unloading, especially when projecting our problems on others, is like a chewing on one’s own tail and howling in pain. Counterproductive at best.

George
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Self doubt is for loosers

Steve H
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Men do not need to ‘make headways in relationships’. What men need is to become stronger, more self-assured, more on-mission. Men are way too focused on ‘working on relationships’. It’s a betrayal of themselves. And I don’t even care that ‘working on relationships’ is a turn-off to their wives or girlfriends either – those wives and girlfriends knew exactly what they were doing when they asked him to go to ‘relationship counseling’. They were trying to emasculate him, so they could strip away at his personal power, so that they themselves could have more power in the relationship. So they… Read more »

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George,
critical self-reflection is not self doubt.

If you keep doing the same things the same way, you’ll keep getting the same results time and again. At some point you have to stop doing the old shit, step back, take a critical look at yourself — yes, yourself — and start doing something different if you want different results.

That’s how we learn. That’s why critical self-reflection is crucial. But, hey, don’t take my word for it.

Glenn
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@ New Yorker – Spot on.

Ben
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Steve:

Men making headways in relationships = men need[ing] to become stronger, more self-assured, more on-mission.

You cannot become stronger and more on-mission if you wallow in self-pity and blame women for it.

Becoming stronger means taking responsibility for your shit, which means keeping your projections in check and self-pity at bay.

jf12
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@Ben, re: critical. Reflect on this:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/07/15/separating-values/#comment-46805
“Part of that nonsense is that openly discussing sexual likes & dislikes will lead to a better sex life for a couple. Nothing could be further from the truth.”

Amen.

D-Man
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LOL Man Up eh. Benjamina?

George
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Rollo, References to “sole mates” and “oneitis” on this site seem concern beta male mentality exclusively. I agree with you, oneitis is bullshit. However, I wonder what your thoughts are concerning women who want it for themselves. I dated a few girls in college who were “searching” for their “sole mates”, both balled their eyes out when I rejected the idea. Someone I recently started seeing announced the same desire with me and is very hurt because I am not reciprocating. I find it absurd, disgusting. I feel threatened by women with “oneitis”. Their compulsion leads to a form of… Read more »

Ben
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Steve: “They were trying to emasculate him, so they could strip away at his personal power, so that they themselves could have more power in the relationship. So they could ‘win’ at his expense. And why did they do this? Simply because they could.” This illustrates the need for owning your projections and keeping self-pity at bay. First, no one can emasculate you and strip your power without your permission, explicit or not. Second, the rest are your projections: you feel emasculated, so you think women are out to emasculate you, so you blame women for emasculating you. And you… Read more »

Ben
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jf12,
What’s there to reflect on? I agree with that. You don’t?

Glenn
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@ George Stop being silly. The last photo is of a hideous women. Of course this is a subjective decision, but for some reason, out of all the things I said you focused on that one sentence and of course ignored the context. I’ll straighten it out for you. I don’t think Robin Korth is hideous – so what? I don’t find her attractive either. But the only reason I mentioned it is that I was wondering what Dave’s sexuality is like. Beta, beta, beta. He didn’t even try. If he was mixed about her, you’d think he’d at least… Read more »

George
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Why should Dave “try”?

You address the subject as if he (for some reason) is required to try, is if it is blatant self evident given fact without consideration that he should maintain sexual motivation. Why do you assume this?

Would you fuck the horrendous blob in the last picture?

http://man-over-board.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ugly-women-4.jpg

Be honest now…

New Yorker
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@ Ben What I mean by treating a woman like a man is spelling out one’s attraction cues in an appeal to reason rather than as an appeal to femininity. If you want to bring out the woman’s innate sexuality, beyond her liking you, you also need to treat her in a sexual way…which means implicit sexual dominance. THAT IS WHAT SHE SUBSCONSCIOUSLY EXPECTS. IF YOU DONT’ DO IT, THEN SHE WILL ASSUME YOU DONT LIKE HER. This is an attraction cue that is literally hardwired into women. Dave talked to Robin as if he was talking to a man… Read more »

George
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Glen,

Being serious now…

Maybe she looked much better with her clothes on.

We cannot take Robin Korths story at face value. There are numerous possibilities concerning what was really said and when and in what context between she and “Dave”. Hell, Korth could have made the whole damn thing up. Who knows?

What we can take at face value is that her story is total bullshit on any level and it is written to vilify masculinity.

Glenn
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@Ben I’m many things, but I’m not your fucking “bro”, bitch. I wouldn’t run with a pussybeggar like you if you were the last man on earth. You are a punchline to a bad joke to me. Yet, you prance in here as though you are schooling us all – and don’t have the faintest clue about what you are talking about. Let’s just deal with some of your BS. 1. Your “problem” with Dave is that he didn’t do anything. I actually commented on the same thing, dopey but you miss the real issue here. It’s Korth’s reaction. You… Read more »

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Glenn, dudebro, if you stop frothing at the mouth, you may start reading with comprehension (and spitting less). If you are trying to insult me, you’d have to do better than unleash your fears of emasculation on me.

Re: no. 1 — nope, not what I said.

Re: no. 2 — I agree.

D-Man
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Dave ticked all her boxes, but he chose not to tickle her box.

She asked him for honesty, he gave it to her. She got LJBF’d. Happens all the time to guys, after being strung along WAY FURTHER than that.

Welcome to equality lady.

George
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Glen, You consistently and repeatedly state that “Dave” in Korths story (or whatever it is) should at least “try”. You stated “you’d think he’d at least try due to being opportunistic and see how it went”. Furthermore, you reinforce your thought by stating that YOU would have tried “something” by stating “I think if I’d decided to spend three nights in bed with her, I would have tried something of some sort.” We have no idea what “Dave” saw when the clothes came off. How can you make your assertion without knowing what Dave saw and experienced? You have made… Read more »

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Ben, I never spent much time on “critical self reflection”, never got so wrapped up in myself that I would describe it that way, never found anything so obscure and confusing that I kept repeating the same mistake over and over, never doubted that I could try something different to succeed, never had THAT hard a time learning. You apparently assumed I have. If so, you are wrong. In your comments you repeatedly make statements like “getting stronger”, “taking responsibility for your shit”. You state “this is why critical self reflection is crucial” and “the need for owning your projections… Read more »

George
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Ben,

You don’t become a successful race car driver by staring at the dashboard. Success and failure cannot be experienced by self examination. In fact excessive self examination can be used as a “buffer”. Experience is the teacher, not introspection. Get out and drive.

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@Glenn

“2. Korth’s public reaction…..”

This is why I have no sympathy, and no empathy for her. If she can be so indiscreet about such matters, and attention whore about it then certainly anyone who encounters this is permitted an opinion not just of the article but the character of author as well.

It’s her need to publicly discuss this, and the way she does it, that makes me think “Dave’s” actions, and statements are irrelevant. I almost feel sorry for him.

Steve H
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Ben @ 5:59 – Though the forum here is entirely areligious (and I’m personally atheist) – You’re the gung-ho 21 y/o Christian kid who attends a new church and, in his infinite wisdom, ‘tells’ all the congregants every last thing about themselves by parsing their 1st hand observations upon society – and indeed about their own fathers, brothers, sons, and friends – in good faith candor. You’re that kid making an ignorant, obnoxious ass of himself in the company of adults. You’re that kid who doesn’t stick around a community of thoughtful adults for long, and a couple weeks later,… Read more »

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this caricature of “Ben” is merely proof of Americas third gender, the feminized male.

watch, learn, even pity him.

M Simon
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jf12 July 17th, 2014 at 5:22 pm @M Simon, re: girls. We are kinda in the same age bracket – nice. It happens often enough when we are out that a 20 something will go nuts even with her around. Publicly she is amused. In private it rankles her until I remind her that the attractiveness other girls see is in part what attracted her to me. It is funny how they think they have a lock and key on you. I keep reminding her that it is her job to make me want her. There are still plenty of… Read more »

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I have been avoiding the question. So I think it deserves an address. What would I have done if I was Dave? Even if I couldn’t get it up for her I would have rubbed her pussy until she came. Eaten her out if she would let me. I certainly wouldn’t have done nothing. Although I must say back in the day my best pick up line was “Lets snuggle naked. No sex. I like the body contact.” And other than some rubbing there was no sex. About 3/4s would come back gagging for it – “Is there something wrong… Read more »

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New Yorker July 17th, 2014 at 6:18 pm One of the best ways to express your dominance is to get her in a situation where you could have sex. And don’t. See my: July 18th, 2014 at 2:13 am So what was wrong? Despite what she did (assuming there is any truth at all to her recital) Dave didn’t do anything to arouse her. Make her needy – in the moment. I was watching the news today about the Malaysia aircraft shoot down. What struck me was one couple with what looked liked a newborn who didn’t get on the… Read more »

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I was looking around on /r/theredpill after Rollo linked to it in one of the comments above, and found a fascinating book on hypergamy/female double standards – “The Manipulated Man” by Esther Vilar – do a google search and you can easily find a copy in .pdf format. Couldn’t help but wonder if anyone else here has read it. It’s fairly dated, but still explores many of the same (red pill) ideas that Rollo and others have presented here. I’m glad this blog is getting a bit of spotlight from Ms. Korth’s tweets; in fact, I hope more people besides… Read more »

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Steve H July 17th, 2014 at 5:43 pm When the first mate pulls that shit on me I tell her. “You go to counseling since you have the problem. Tell me how it turns out.” That usually quiets her down. Why would I want some beta counselor or worse a woman telling me anything about a relationship? My attitude is simple: make me happy and you will get what you want. Make me unhappy and you won’t even get a foot rub. And what do I tell her about it? “Eventually you will become needy and cater to me. And… Read more »

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jf12 July 17th, 2014 at 5:25 pm See my July 18th, 2014 at 2:13 am I can’t tell you the number of women who looked at me after a night of naked snuggling and were thinking “OK. I let you talk me out of my clothes and you didn’t fuck me? What is wrong with you? What is wrong with me?” I pulled that on the first mate and years later she explained her thinking. When she came back for more she marched in with a mission. And I don’t mean that figuratively. She was marching. Every step had a… Read more »

M Simon
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My first girlfriend gave me some advice I will never ever forget. Never give in to a woman. Ever. I would amend that a little: Never give in to a woman unless you are absolutely convinced you should change your behavior. If you have done something that does not bear repeating change it. And then throw it in her face to show that you have integrity. You not only need to be strong enough to resist them. You have to be strong enough to admit error. To surrender when warranted. And then you tell her she needs to surrender. And… Read more »

Ishamael
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It’s interesting to note that the woman who wrote that book, Esther Vilar, received and apparently continues to receive death threats over its content. Musta touched on a nerve something fierce with feminists. wink

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Ishamael
July 18th, 2014 at 3:37 am

http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/the_manipulated_man.pdf

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http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/the_manipulated_man.pdf

Women’s Libbers find themselves in the strange predicament of doing more to maintain the status quo than anyone else. Without their arrogant accusations the macho man would no longer exist, except perhaps in the movies.

I don’t think Esther Vilar gets it. Oh. Well.

Robert What?
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Very interesting take on her article. I went back and reread it in light of your analysis. You are right: he tried communicating to her, albeit a bit clumsily, some rather tame suggestions on how she could make herself more sexually appealing to him. She summarily dismissed them as degrading and subservient. Apparently the hamster can be so strong that it can make a woman prefer to be alone rather than doing something solely for someone else’s pleasure.

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M. Simon,

Yarr. It’s dated (think 1970s), so some of it is pretty funny. A few concepts seem to hit the nail on the head though, and from a slightly different perspective, which is why I found it a fascinating read.

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@ JGalt “but as someone who’s almost 50, I’m finding that women (and young women too) find me way more desirable than at any other time in my life right now. If anything, I think the peak SMV chart for males could be moved out to the right by another decade or more **IF** men really take care of themselves. “Granted, I’m in good physical shape, have a full head of hair, have an exciting life and probably look 7 years younger than my age, but those things all applied in my 30s as well and women paid absolutely NO… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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@George re: oneitis and soul-mates

The thing with oneitis is that it signals to all and sundry that the sufferer is clingy, desperate and needy. Women find this creepy and stalkerish when it’s not reciprocated, though they’ve gotten to the stage of over-the-top exaggerating and stating that much of men’s desire is creepy.

“Soul-mates” is the female socially-acceptable version.

@Ben – white-knighting much? How many maidens you’ve rescued over the internet have rewarded you with sex?

http://iameduard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/white-knight-3.jpg

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The Great American Princess cannot brook rejection. She has had her ass kissed for so long and so hard by the Great American Mangina she’s come to expect men to line up to compete to kiss her ass and prove themselves worthy of the privilege of her special pussy. (Really, is any vagina special when there are approximately 3.5 billion in the world?) Ms Korth ran into man with the courage to exhibit a wicked honesty reserved typically for the Great American Princess when she rejects suitors. And it shocks the entire Princess Nation. The thirsty mangina / finicky pedestalized… Read more »

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Blackpoisonsoul

I agree. Furthermore, I think “soul mate” craving is literally a personally self deluding and misdirected craving for dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins, etc which are released into the brain during sex. Real physiological, biochemical and physical phenomena influence and control behavior. Ideology is usually nothing more than superficial and almost without exception induces theatrical behavior. Fundamentally all behavior is motivated and controlled by perceived risks and rewards. No need to debate the reward regarding sex.

George
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Ishmael, I read the manipulated man several years ago. Little wonder that Vilar is from a different culture than the U.S. I highly doubt any woman in the U.S. would have written such a book especially at the time. To me, her book is somewhat superficial and she comes off as being quite angry. However, it is very true. Everyone I shared it with responded defensively, some were emotionally violent. No one I discussed the book with attacked her observations, or her statement, her thesis. Everyone attacked her personally or attacked her analogies. It became very apparent to me that… Read more »

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The more I think about it, the more likely it is Korth faked at least half her story. The whole thing may be a fake and may as well be. It is meaningless.

George
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Obviously Korth is receiving a lot of words in response to her story. I doubt she is receiving any worthy dick.

DeNihilist
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Ah Eon, last time I was chatting with a pretty young thing, I mentioned that my favourite band was Jethro Tull.

Blank.

That is what I mean. The older broad will probably have the same cultural memories. Easier to hang with.

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Eon, if you are older then 45, I take it you haven’t had a good water boarding yet?

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DeNihilist
July 18th, 2014 at 5:25 pm

Just for you. And semi on topic:

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@ DeNihilist

I did an open mike night where I recited the lyric a half dozen Jethro Tull songs though they were high brow poetry. The crowd was 12-15 years younger than I. Only a few of the guys recognized the famous English poet I. Anderson.

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Badpainter
July 18th, 2014 at 6:26 pm

LOL!

Glenn
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@ George I don’t know if I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood me. I was commenting in that comment on Dave’s betaness in matters of sex and really was just speculating. I offered several scenarios where I might be able to get turned on, fyi, by a woman who wasn’t that physically attractive at first. I was actually thinking about a particular women I found kind of unattractive who gave me the most amazing and erotic massage, and at a certain point her fervor was contagious and bammo, it was on. I never said or implied Dave owed her anything… Read more »

girlwithadragonflytattoo
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You really explained this well – especially the personal value vs. sexual market value. That’s so interesting that the girlfriend said that you men shouldn’t know this! My mom always taught me that a woman’s value went down as she got older (not personal value of course – she was really talking about sexual value – just never said those exact words), while a man’s value generally goes up. It’s something that was just a fact – but not really in a bad way – age gracefully and keep in shape…? Eventually both men and women lose their smv’s when… Read more »

DeNihilist
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BP and Simon, Thanx Brothers! Loved it!

M Simon
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lingerie for women
July 19th, 2014 at 12:25 am

At least the spam is semi appropriate. But you need to contact Robin.

M Simon
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Well I just learned something: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=waterboard

M Simon
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And this has R-rated illustrations (and semi tongue in cheek): https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Waterboarding

Not my cuppa. Although I did have occasional squirters as girlfriends from time to time. Towels were de rigueur if we were too tired to change the bedding.

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@M Simon. re: snugglewuggles. Comfort game is the only game I knew for 50 years. But it’s beta game, pure and simple. Don’t confuse the successes of beta game with what you could have pulled with alpha game, or what I might as well go ahead and call discomfort game.

Seriously, think about it *specifically* in terms of causing discomfort. Very sesriously.

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jf12 July 19th, 2014 at 1:21 am I think it depends on how you play it. If you have sex with them the first time you get in bed with them. Beta game. No sex and they come back avid for it. Alpha game. The point is that you show you are not a needy Beta. Early on I decided that if the girl wasn’t into it I wasn’t interested. The game I played sorted that as well. If she just gave in because I ran a good Game and then had second thoughts, well, she didn’t come back. Fine… Read more »

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Every girl is to some extent different. Some like to be dominated one way. Some like other ways. I got the girls that liked my style of domination. And amusingly enough my ex-GFs were very comfortable with the new GF. I made a point of introducing them if they were not in the same circle. I didn’t leave much bitterness in my wake. And the new GF? Well she was on her toes because she knew I had options. There are 3.5 billion girls out there. There is no ONE Game that gets them all. There ARE general principles. Domination… Read more »

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Doms (of the S&M type) are very careful to pick out girls who need their type of domination. I was no less careful. It keeps them coming back for more.

M Simon
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Or take writing. All writers (in a given language) use the same words. And people like one writer and detest others. Same words, different styles and points of view.

It is in a way like religion. Far too many who find one that works for them BELIEVE they have found the one true religion and every one should adhere to that faith. I’m more of an eclectic in all respects.

What ever works for you.

Kate
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“If you have sex with them the first time you get in bed with them. Beta game. No sex and they come back avid for it. Alpha game.” The key to it all from M Simon. Now, please, go forth and and dispel this notion that early sex somehow creates relationships. It ends them. It makes the man too “easy.” This is where the game of men who follow pick up advice when what they really want are relationships falls down. If you want a relationship, you have to demonstrate your superiority by your ability to wait. A man in… Read more »

jaded
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Nobody else notice how the women respond en mass with indignation etc, the men with nuanced opinion? Ignorance is strength as it provides a united front.

Kate
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I get you, Rollo, but that’s not what I said. I said the man was making the woman wait. Completely different than a woman making a man wait. In that case, the woman has the power; in M Simon’s, he does. Men witholding sex until there’s a relationship: the ultimate script flip smile

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ps: I give you major kudos for your comments at the v. I become very distressed when I hear crying.

DeNihilist
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M Simon, not the waterboarding I had in mind! LMFAROTFP!

Was thinking of the old boring one, but may prefer this style next time!

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Kate, I think it depends where you are in your life.

My wife and I had sex on our first date, on the couch, in the rec room, directly below her parents bedroom..

Thirty years later we are still going at it, not to say it has been perfect, far, far from it. We have had points of the whole thing crashing, just as recent as a year ago, to points where like now, we wonder what all the fuss was aboot.

Kate
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I do, too, DeNihilist. None of what I’m talking about is necessary for the kind of experience you’ve described. Reports from the front indicate things have radically changed even within the last ten years and that tougher stances are necessary to build modern relationships.

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@ Glenn

Spot on in regard to dominant behavior in bed. The woman will respond to dominance in an incredibly sexual way and will assume something is wrong at any sign of hesitation. Any passivity will result in at best, disinterested sex.

@ M Simon

Spot on in regard to dominance and knowing yourself. Really excellent comments.

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“Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” even if in her wrath she draws her humiliation to the notice of everyone and especially insane Misogynists.

smile

M Simon
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http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/study-looks-matter-less-to-women-than-they-do-to-men/

Men dig beauty.
Chicks dig power.
The rest is commentary.

And thanks Rollo for the link it made me look around. And Kate told you what I was going to say. Only she said it better.

Kate
July 19th, 2014 at 11:22 am

Thanks! You remind me of my first GF. The one who taught me game. Back in ’62. Awakeness in a woman is a very rare commodity. I was VERY lucky.

Kate
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smile

Dale
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Dude, what is she supposed to do? If the guy doesn’t find her hot, that is no basis for a relationship. She can’t go through life wondering how repulsive she is to her mate on that day, and what she could do to mitigate this. She was right to end it.
The guy was a schlub for leading her on like that. A man knows at a glance whether the woman is hot or not.
This is coming from an alpha male who is fully red-pill aware.

Glenn
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@M Simon – Uh, I guess all those alpha guys who fuck a girl the first night are mistaken, lol. I have no idea what you are talking about. I have sex with a woman when I want to have sex with a woman. In fact, your manipulativeness sounds kind beta to me, like you are so concerned with being dominant that you get in your own way. When I want to fuck a women, I fuck her. I never let a woman be dominant in bed though. Not for strategy’s sake, but because I don’t enjoy it. Maybe you… Read more »

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