Separating Values

value

Every so often I’m in the midst of considering an idea, sometimes even typing away at a draft, when the internet gods hand me the divine gift of an example of exactly the concept I’m attempting to make a bit more concrete. Today was one of those days.

59 year old Robin Korth made an effort in feigned indignation on the Huffington Post last Saturday. I can’t imagine most of my readers haven’t been made aware of it already since this story is making the rounds in the manosphere; Return of Kings and Chateau Heartiste were predictably first to the punch. Please do, at the very least, skim through these posts (they’re not long); they provide many more examples of red pill wisdom than just the points I’ll make today.

These blogs have already done an admirable job in dissecting Ms. Korth’s feminist boilerplate, male-shaming efforts so I don’t really feel the need to toss another log on that fire. Briefly though, Robin was upset that a 55 year old man she met online found her body beyond his threshold of physical arousal – in other words, she didn’t pass the boner test for him.

For all her self-induced self-perceptions of what she believed men should find attractive arousing about her, the man, Dave, was completely honest with her about his evaluation of her sexual market value. But as I’ve stated in prior threads, women say they want honesty, but they never want full disclosure.

Dave went so far as to make a counter offer, by making suggestions she might better present herself in a more sexy context for him to increase her arousal potential:

We talked for some time more, my head reeling at the content of the conversation. He spoke of special stockings and clothing that would “hide” my years. He blithely told me he loved “little black dresses” and strappy shoes. He said my hair was not long and flowing as he preferred, but that was okay because it was “cool looking.” I felt like a Barbie Doll on acid as I listened to this man. He was totally oblivious to the viciousness of his words. He had turned me into an object to be dressed and positioned to provide satisfaction for his ideas of what female sexual perfection should be.

He explained that now that I knew what was required, we could have a great time in the bedroom. I told him no. I would not hide from my own body. I would not wear outfits to make my body more “tolerable.” I would not undress in the dark or shower with the bathroom door closed. I would not diminish myself for him — or for anyone. My body is beautiful and it goes along with my mind and my heart.

I’m just going to take a moment here to point out a few notable observations.

Initially I assumed Dave was attempting to establish Frame, and maybe in a Beta way he was, but in doing so Dave is negotiating desire – his own desire, and this is equally ineffective when men do it from an advantage because eventually a man will realize he’s compromised his genuine passion and the woman will grow resentful.

Also, Dave makes the mistake of appealing to Robin’s reason – an obvious Beta tell. Like a properly conditioned Beta, Dave lays everything on the table in full disclosure. Most feminized men internalize the popular notion that women want to know and discuss the sexual things “they like” in order to pragmatically and rationally fulfill each other’s “needs.”

It’s counterintuitive for men to express what they like sexually, especially when this trope is taught to them as part of their ‘open communication’ (i.e. “the key to a great relationship”®) sensitivity training. What Robin was really upset with was less about his words and more about her hypergamous filters being tricked by a guy who ‘just doesn’t get it’ that a woman has to want to please a man.

Genuine, unnegotiated desire doesn’t work rationally or pragmatically.

If Dave had read The Gift he would know that buying for, or requesting that a woman wear lingerie is a Beta push. A woman buys and wears lingerie to please a Man for whom she has a desire to please – anything else is a form of negotiating desire.

However, Ms. Korth’s example is one of a commonly solipsistic woman who’s default presumption is that pleasing anyone but herself is self-diminishing servitude.

I can’t say as this comes as a shock – most properly conditioned women now feel that just cooking for a man is a form of submitting to, and appreciating him for, his authority (cooking has become the expectation of men to prove their worth in a fem-centric role reversal). Under the doctrine of egalitarian equalism any act of anything less than mutually autonomous independence has the potential to be turned into (the perception of) patriarchal domineering.

Conflating Values

One of the major problems women have, and more than even some red pill men have, is the conflation of sexual market value with their intrinsic personal value as a human being.

It needs to be emphasized that while personal value is influential in sexual market value, SMV is distinct from your value as a human being. I’m stressing this because, in the age Disney Princess empowerment, this conflation of the two has become a go-to social convention; and not just for women.

What Korth suffers from is presuming her personal value is her sexual market value.

It’s disruptive to her self-perceptions and ego-investments when that presumption is challenged by a man who doesn’t want to fuck her for reasons based on the intrinsic value she believes she’s entitled to by virtue of maturity and imaginings of self-sufficiency. Just as women aren’t aroused by men’s own self-concepts of virtuousness and aspirations of higher purpose, men aren’t aroused by whatever ephemeral self-perceptions a woman may have.

From the Timeline of the Professional Woman:

This is the overreach of the feminine imperative – to attempt to thwart men’s biological predispositions by convincing them what they should find attractive and arousing in women. This becomes all the more ironic when you consider that the women the imperative would have men be attracted to are masculinized versions of  women.

Feminist ‘equalism’ is always shocked that evolved human biology and its feral predispositions won’t cooperate with it, but such is the frustration with any social order or ideology which fails to account for the realities of human being’s natural states and biological imperatives. There is a conceived, higher-order expectation that, through freewill, conviction or some other learned, reasoned means, people will rise above the influence of their base nature and comply with what they believe will make for an idealized existence.

What egalitarian equalisim, struggles against is basic human instinct, nature and impulse.

Sexual Market Value vs. Personal Value

After two years since publishing it, my SMV chart continues to be a benchmark for manosphere / red pill theory and it’s extended beyond whatever humble hopes I had for it. However, it’s always been very contentious because it places a valuation on men and women according to the dictates of the sexual marketplace:

[…] however for our purposes today it is important to note that these valuations are meant to encompass an overall sexual value based on both long and short term breeding prospects, relational desirability, male provisioning capacity, female fertility, sexual desirability and availability, etc. et. al.. Your milage may vary, but suffice it to say the ten scale is meant to reflect an overall value as individuated for one sex by the other. Outliers will always be an element of any study, but the intent is to represent general averages here.

When you attempt to quantify any aspect of human ‘value’ you can expect to have your interpretations of  it to be offensive to various people on the up or down side of that estimate. There is simply no escaping personal bias and the offense that comes from having one’s self-worth attacked, or even confirmed for them.

The first criticism I’ve come to expect is usually some variation about how evaluating a person’s SMV is “dehumanizing”, people are people, and have intrinsic worth beyond just the sexual. To which I’ll emphatically agree, however, this dismissal only conveniently sidesteps the realities of the sexual marketplace.

Again, sexual market value is not personal value. Personal value, your value as a human being however one subjectively defines that, is a definite component to sexual market value, but separating the two requires an often uncomfortable amount of self-analysis. And, as in Ms. Korth’s experience here, this often results in denial of very real circumstances, as well as a necessary, ego-preserving, cognitive dissonance from that reality.

Denial of sexual market valuation is a psychological insurance against women losing their controlling, sexual agency in their hypergamous choices.

You Shouldn’t Know This Stuff!

I recently read a story on the Red Pill Reddit forum about a guy who’s girlfriend discovered my book he’d been reading. She began picking through various sections and, expectedly, got really pissed off at the chapters on SMV (the chart in particular). They both discussed the parts she’d read and she admitted she wanted to read the whole thing, but from what they talked about she confessed that there wasn’t really anything she disagreed with.

Her words were, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”

It wasn’t that she was irritated by the sections of the book, but rather the fact that men might become aware of women’s sexual strategies as laid bare by the SMV sections and chart.

In the most visceral, biological sense, the primary value of women to men is sex. Almost a year ago I was involved in a lively blog discussion about how men sexually size up women within the space of a glance. Either a woman has sexual potential or she doesn’t. Women like to complain that this is sexual objectification, but men’s brains are literally wired to do exactly this. When we see an arousing woman it triggers the parts of our brains involved with tool manipulation – that’s a feature, not a bug, of the male sexual response.

That may seem shallow or dehumanizing, but just because sexual valuation is a prime value for women it doesn’t mean it’s their only value – in fact far from it. However, there is a distinction between the two, but there’s is a definite utility to women’s interest in maintaining their hypergamous selectivity when they conflate the two together, or deny / reject the validity of sexual market value altogether.

This is what Ms. Korth, and countless other women who share her mindset, has illustrated here. The reality is that a man, Dave, is separating her sexual market value from her estimation of her personal self-worth (inflated and exaggerated as it may be). Robin mistakenly believes her self-impression should be her sexual market value, but this simply isn’t, and never will be, the case.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

253 comments on “Separating Values

  1. Remember, a woman can decline sex even mid-act with no shame. How dare a man get into bed with a woman and not seal the deal?

    There is absolutely an entitlement double-standard, but when does the feminine imperative ever play fair?

  2. Hell, are some of you guys this blind? “Dave” is not interested in boning the older broads, he likes the younger ones. But as most men my age will eventually concede, especially after a good water boarding, the young ones motivate the dick, but rarely the brain.

    He was looking for an older broad that he could communicate with! He did not ever want to have sex with Robin. But her, being a relevant woman, pushed him to bang her so that she could tell herself that she was still; beautiful!

    What’s that old saying? Reality is a bitch!

    Idiot!

  3. @Martelll

    July 17th, 2014 at 9:35 am
    “She took it personal. I mean do you guys really think she would take it any other way? Women feel entitled to attraction from men no matter what.”

    Get over yourself. This blog, like pretty much the rest of manosphere, is about guys’ feewings being hurt cos women don’t want to sleep with them. Comment after comment is about personal experiences of men who take it personally day in and out. Why harp on women when you are doing exactly the same thing? One could even say, based on the sea of complaints here, that guys feew entitled to attraction from women no matter what. But that can’t be, right? Cos guys are Manly ‘n Stuff (TM), and never ’bout feewings.

    What’s ridiculous is the astounding lack of self-awareness in manosphere, and not some completely predictable and human reactions of one woman, reactions no different from those relayed here repeatedly every day — by men.

    As my grandma (since on the subject) would say, stop yer kvetching and get a grip. Go on and do something useful with your life. Don’t waste it on pointless complaints, which only make you unattractive.

  4. Pure perfection –

    ” I have no comment”

    “These men are misogynists and are insane”

    Idiot!

  5. From Rollo’s link – “Another avenue to explore would be showing images of men’s wives and girlfriends in bikinis, Raison said. He predicts the objectifying effect would not happen in this context.”

    BZZZZZZ – WRONG!

    I objectify my mate of 30 years each and every day. It’s called being in love you fool!

  6. David W – ” I doubt that this is true, but after a google search, I was unable to find consensus papers from, say, psychiatric/psychological/scientific bodies, affirming that evolutionary psychology’s take on male/female sexual interaction is valid per x% majority of the experts.”

    Never forget, that continental drift was not accepted til all the older geologists died…

    that ulcers being caused by bacteria was laughed at by the consensus…

    that Einstein said that it would only take one person to prove him wrong, not a consensus….

    consensus is a four letter word in science.

  7. Robin Korth…
    “I have no comment”

    But I am going to comment anyhow, “they are misogynists etc etc etc..”

    rolling my eyes.

  8. @Ben, you probably noticed that more than a couple of male commenters here took Dave to task for apparently leading Robin on. But those (us) commenters didn’t fit your perception so you chose to ignore us.

  9. re: bikinis. Ever notice that the word “pants” is plural? It’s “a pair of pants” because we have two legs. It’s not “a pair of skirt” by the way, but it is “a pair of bikini bottoms”.

    Sohowcome it’s not “a pair of bikini tops” or “a pair of bras”?

    Musings while I enjoy my second-favorite pair of underwear. Ahh.

  10. @ Rollo – I saw those comments too. Besides claiming that his attraction to younger women came from porn, many also posited that he must have erectile dysfunction – and virtually all the women on the comment thread seem to egging Korth on.

    A number of them went on about what Dave must look like saying, “Has he looked at himself in a full length mirror” and other such comments. They seem to miss that Korth wanted to bang him so there was no attraction issue about Dave’s appearance. Others on this thread and there, and Korth herself, talk about the 3 days he spent with her before coming out with his truth as some kind of indicator of what a jerk he is. But in fact, this is very likely his beta behavior as he’s probably afraid to assert his needs and desires as primary. Like Rollo said, he’s probably bought into the female view of inner beauty and personal value being one’s SMV and may have been hoping to become aroused.

    They also ignore all the other things Korth herself points out about Dave. He drove a long way to see her, cooked for her – basically he manscaped his mangina for her. I wonder, how can good sex even happen with this dynamic? Here you have this uber feminist & self-annointed woman’s self help/self actualization guru, and super alpha bitch all rolled into one person trying to get it on with a man so pussified, he can’t even figure out how to date a woman he actually finds attractive. Try to imagine Korth’s advances towards Dave. I wonder were they designed to turn him on?

    You want to get me hard? I don’t care what you look like. Roll me over, face down. Give me a massage with lots of oil and start playing with my balls and cock while I’m laying their with my eyes closed – works every time. I may not find you attractive, but there are certainly some ways a woman can try and turn you on, right? Does anyone think Korth did that? I imagine she grabbed his junk and kissed him a couple of times and was like, “What’s wrong?” That’s surely a turn on, lol.

    But you see, in order for Korth to think about what she might do to turn Dave on – before he reads it out for her – she’d have to actually be interested in him as a person. She’d have to care about what turns him on and give some thought to it. She’d have to be other focused instead of living in her imbecilic solipsism.

    Who here wants to be that she didn’t try to blow him? I think Jack Nicholson could get me hard if he gave me a good blowjob. I’ve also had sexual encounters with women I didn’t find attractive but were so sexual and working so hard for it, with such commitment and real lust that I got very turned on by them in the moment.

    Bottom line. Korth is a cunt of global proportions. She’s also an opportunistic lowlife, using this incident to pump up her book sales and public persona. This is de rigeur in feminist circles. It goes like this:

    1. Make up some perceived insult such as being asked for coffee or being told by a lover that he’d like you to slut it up a bit.
    2. Turn it into feminist propaganda.
    3. Post it on the web, write an article – and watch yourself blow up.

    It beats working for a living.

  11. jf12,
    What “perception” would that be?

    You did not take Dave to task for acting shitty with his pointless and cruel advice for her, nor for leading her on.

    If I recall, you took him to task for not doing “something” in bed, and then (or before maybe) diluted it with saying that “somebody should have done something” in that bed, or words to that effect. But maybe that’s what you meant by “leading her on,” so fine.

    My beef with Dave is not that he did not do anything in bed. If he can’t, he can’t, and that’s that. You cannot fake attraction. But if he is repulsed by older women’s bodies and prefers them young, then he already knows it — it is not news to him. Therefore he should stick to pursuing the young ones and leave grannies to their own devices.

    If he was interested in Korth without sexual attraction (and how does that happen, BTW?), then he should have said so from the start. Her major problem with this ugly situation was not that she believed he somehow “owed” her sex or attraction, but that he behaved in an unnecessarily cruel way in giving her his stupid “advice” after the weekend fiasco.

    Dave is a d-bag, there is no question about it. And Korth should stick to either looking for much younger men for sex only, or older ones for companionship. Or maybe take advice from these grannies (who put a very different spin on Rollo’s alleged discrepancy in the way older women perceive their value, sexual and personal):

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2694913/Any-woman-MAD-marry-60-Whats-point-tied-ailing-old-man-asks-LIZ-HODGKINSON.html

  12. jf12
    July 17th, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    That got me to thinking about what the first mate calls her chest.

    “The girls.” But if I refer to a woman as a girl she goes ballistic.

  13. Basically, Dave is a beta with no frame. Due to his insecurities, he picked an obviously unattractive woman who would overlook his lack of masculinity. When she wanted him to engage in some polite sex with her (I agree that she definitely did not want to go crazy on him), he remembered that he does not like her. Like a beta, he then tried to explain himself and appealed to her reason. Not only did he waste her time, but he spoke to a woman as if he was speaking to a man….and that gets women confused.

  14. @ Ben – Have you actually read any of the content on this site? It certainly seems like you are utterly ignorant of intersexual dynamics and rather are stuck in a gynocentric worldview, shaped utterly by female imperatives.

    Most of us here won’t argue with you because we know that many betas, white knights, manginas (male feminists) and tradcons will never let go of their pathetic and self-destructive ideas. We’re not out to change you. Rollo lays out the evidence and ideas here and some men bite and others don’t.

    So your hectoring is just amusing. It’s also nice to know that betas like you are out there – more for me. You can have all the Korths with their dried up vaginas and sagging skin and bitchy, entitled attitudes. Just don’t fail to get it up – she might write an article about you in a globally known publication.

    But of course, you likely aren’t even real. I think you are actually Robin Korth. Hence why I’m responding. If you are not a sock puppet, then let me ask you this. Have you asked Robin Korth out on a date? If not, why not? Doesn’t she “deserve” you?

    Last. I’ve likely gotten more mogambo then ten of you (N of low 3 figures), as have many of the men here. We are empowered with women, not cowed. We are about getting what we want, not serving up what the Robin Korth’s of the world want. But you go right again and keep serving her and other women. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously here. You serve as a “negative power of example” for me. Thanks for that…

  15. New Yorker

    July 17th, 2014 at 4:40 pm
    “Not only did he waste her time, but he spoke to a woman as if he was speaking to a man….and that gets women confused.”

    You make no sense. He would not be speaking to a man in a similar context unless they were gay. And he is not. The information he gave her is something a man can share with his buddies to help them improve their game, but not something a man should ever tell a woman, particularly one with whom he was to be intimate, successfully or not.

    What’s at stake in this case is proper behavior in close encounter situations where partners find out that their physical attraction is insufficient or nonexistent. It happens, and men are often on the receiving end of cruel treatment here.

    He spoke to her the way this last girl told you, or your friend, or his friend’s friend, that she’d happily sleep with you if only your dick were two inches longer and one inch wider in diameter. So go ahead, do something about it. Or maybe if you were taller. Why aren’t you taller? Or had more hair. Hair plugs? Or if you weren’t you. Oh… yeah. So let’s be friends, OK?

    If anything, he spoke to her like a girl, and she reacted like a man or rather as any human being would: with hurt and humiliation. Just as you (or your friend) did, or would, when that girl told you about her dick / height / hair requirements.

    There is no way such information would be positively received by any man on Earth. So why do you expect women to act differently? They are human too, contrary to what some here believe.

    See, such casual stupid misogyny with no self-reflection is why manosphere lacks cred in the general population.

  16. @Ben, re: “What “perception” would that be?”

    This one: “Get over yourself. This blog, like pretty much the rest of manosphere, is about guys’ feewings being hurt cos women don’t want to sleep with them. Comment after comment is about personal experiences of men who take it personally day in and out. Why harp on women when you are doing exactly the same thing? One could even say, based on the sea of complaints here, that guys feew entitled to attraction from women no matter what. But that can’t be, right? Cos guys are Manly ‘n Stuff (TM), and never ’bout feewings.”

    You’re upset knowing that men have feelings. Hence, probably you realize you have hurt men.

  17. @M Simon, re: girls.

    My 64 yr old wife doesn’t seem to mind me talking about girls provided they are girls, e.g. teens up through about mid20s nowadays. But you’re right if I refer to an older woman as a girl she gets kinda rankled. It is kinda weird the way she seems to believe I could only view an older woman as a potential sexual partner, now that I think about it.

  18. @Glenn

    Robin Korth – “She is not hideous”??? compared to what?

    This girl?

    http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/d3/d8/a5d3d8fa2e70b42661d69397977cebc3.jpg

    This girl?

    http://sadlovequotesonline.blogspot.com/2011/04/hot-sexydesisizzling-beautiful-n_8150.html

    Or this?

    http://man-over-board.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ugly-women-4.jpg

    Everything is relative….relative to what you accept or the level to which you depreciate yourself.

  19. New Yorker is right about Dave speaking as a *beta* male to Robin, which as Ben rightly pointed out is way too girlified.

    I think we all can agree that comfort game is ineffective “let’s just snuggle”. Don’t say we didn’t mention it.

  20. jf12,
    You don’t get it.

    My point is that if men are to make headways in relationships with women, they need not fear critical self-reflection. Isn’t that what game is about, at least in part? But as it is evident on this thread, self-reflection of the critical kind is in a woefully short supply.

    I know it is easier and more fun to unload. It often helps, too. But continuous unloading, especially when projecting our problems on others, is like a chewing on one’s own tail and howling in pain. Counterproductive at best.

  21. Men do not need to ‘make headways in relationships’.

    What men need is to become stronger, more self-assured, more on-mission.

    Men are way too focused on ‘working on relationships’. It’s a betrayal of themselves.

    And I don’t even care that ‘working on relationships’ is a turn-off to their wives or girlfriends either – those wives and girlfriends knew exactly what they were doing when they asked him to go to ‘relationship counseling’.

    They were trying to emasculate him, so they could strip away at his personal power, so that they themselves could have more power in the relationship. So they could ‘win’ at his expense.

    And why did they do this? Simply because they could.

  22. George,
    critical self-reflection is not self doubt.

    If you keep doing the same things the same way, you’ll keep getting the same results time and again. At some point you have to stop doing the old shit, step back, take a critical look at yourself — yes, yourself — and start doing something different if you want different results.

    That’s how we learn. That’s why critical self-reflection is crucial. But, hey, don’t take my word for it.

  23. Steve:

    Men making headways in relationships = men need[ing] to become stronger, more self-assured, more on-mission.

    You cannot become stronger and more on-mission if you wallow in self-pity and blame women for it.

    Becoming stronger means taking responsibility for your shit, which means keeping your projections in check and self-pity at bay.

  24. Rollo,

    References to “sole mates” and “oneitis” on this site seem concern beta male mentality exclusively. I agree with you, oneitis is bullshit.

    However, I wonder what your thoughts are concerning women who want it for themselves. I dated a few girls in college who were “searching” for their “sole mates”, both balled their eyes out when I rejected the idea. Someone I recently started seeing announced the same desire with me and is very hurt because I am not reciprocating. I find it absurd, disgusting. I feel threatened by women with “oneitis”. Their compulsion leads to a form of perverted dominance.

    Apparently, at least some women suffer oneitis as much as beta males.

    Perhaps you already addressed this subject. I haven’t found it.

    What are your thoughts on women with oneitis?

  25. Steve:
    “They were trying to emasculate him, so they could strip away at his personal power, so that they themselves could have more power in the relationship. So they could ‘win’ at his expense. And why did they do this? Simply because they could.”

    This illustrates the need for owning your projections and keeping self-pity at bay.

    First, no one can emasculate you and strip your power without your permission, explicit or not.

    Second, the rest are your projections: you feel emasculated, so you think women are out to emasculate you, so you blame women for emasculating you. And you cap it off with “because they could.”

    No, they could not, if you did not let them. But you let them, because you already feel emasculated and you need to project that power taken away from you on somebody else, whom then you can blame for it.

    This does absolutely nothing for your self-esteem and power. It only makes you feel more helpless and emasculated, and hateful and/or afraid of women. Women can sense that, which may then actually provoke them into really trying to emasculate you, to prove to you and themselves how weak you are.

    You don’t have to get mired in this game of smoke and mirrors created by your own projections. Nobody can take your power away if you keep yourself centered and own your shit, instead of blaming it on others. That blame is what really gives your power away.

  26. @ George Stop being silly. The last photo is of a hideous women. Of course this is a subjective decision, but for some reason, out of all the things I said you focused on that one sentence and of course ignored the context. I’ll straighten it out for you. I don’t think Robin Korth is hideous – so what? I don’t find her attractive either.

    But the only reason I mentioned it is that I was wondering what Dave’s sexuality is like. Beta, beta, beta. He didn’t even try. If he was mixed about her, you’d think he’d at least try due to being opportunistic and see how it went – and he had to be mixed or otherwise, why was he there at all in the first place? The passivity of it all really strikes me. But I’m not saying he should find her attractive and serve her needs, I’m merely reflecting on my non-passive, aggressive sexuality in which I think if I’d decided to spend three nights in bed with her, I would have tried something of some sort. I probably would never see her again, but Dave apparently just lays there and does nothing. Also, if he dominated her and was aggressive, she might just turn on the dirty whore act without freaking out. A hand on the neck, some aggressive pushing up on her in the elevator – you know, the way a man has sex.

    I thought this point was obvious. Thanks for the pix of hot women though, there aren’t many of them available on the internet…

  27. Fair enough.

    Now lets say that our hypothetically rejected man took it upon himself to write a self-evincing blog post about his experience of being found too short, too fat or with too small a dick to merit a woman’s sexual interest.

    He uses self-empowering language to salve his bruised ego and expresses that this woman should be into fucking him because he’s a great guy “on the inside” and self-righteously rejects the notion he should need to get into better shape, dress differently or change his ideology in order to be found acceptable for this woman’s – now EVERY woman’s – sexual attentions. And somewhere along the way he tweets, “my life is the result of what I think of myself”.

    Now lets say he submits this article to the HuffPo, do they publish it?

    Is there a pre-established social order of sympathetic men and women ready to reinforce his ‘feeewings” and pat him on the back while telling him he should Just Be Himself and the right girl who doesn’t care about superficial conditions will one day find him sexually attractive because he has a high opinion of himself?

  28. @ Ben

    What I mean by treating a woman like a man is spelling out one’s attraction cues in an appeal to reason rather than as an appeal to femininity. If you want to bring out the woman’s innate sexuality, beyond her liking you, you also need to treat her in a sexual way…which means implicit sexual dominance. THAT IS WHAT SHE SUBSCONSCIOUSLY EXPECTS. IF YOU DONT’ DO IT, THEN SHE WILL ASSUME YOU DONT LIKE HER. This is an attraction cue that is literally hardwired into women.

    Dave talked to Robin as if he was talking to a man (e.g. in an objective, non-sexual way)……and it confused her because she was under the impression that it would be a sexual relationship. Had he said….”baby, daddy is gonna ravish you now, put on these stockings and open wide..” it would probably be a totally different discussion.

    Of course, Dave activated not her sexual self, but her conscious masculine self and that destroyed any receptivity that she could have. Had he treated her sexually, she would be blushing how Dave is a great guy who appreciates her. Thing is….this idiot actually did want to have sex with her somehow…hence his requirements…but he went about it in the most betaish, retarded way possible.

    Personally, I have only the most positive feelings toward women. I am in love with a wonderful girl….but, you always need to remember the basic triggers that every woman has. If you want to be happy, you are best off remembering them. You will understand your woman better and everyone will be much happier.

  29. Glen,

    Being serious now…

    Maybe she looked much better with her clothes on.

    We cannot take Robin Korths story at face value. There are numerous possibilities concerning what was really said and when and in what context between she and “Dave”. Hell, Korth could have made the whole damn thing up. Who knows?

    What we can take at face value is that her story is total bullshit on any level and it is written to vilify masculinity.

  30. @Ben I’m many things, but I’m not your fucking “bro”, bitch. I wouldn’t run with a pussybeggar like you if you were the last man on earth. You are a punchline to a bad joke to me. Yet, you prance in here as though you are schooling us all – and don’t have the faintest clue about what you are talking about. Let’s just deal with some of your BS.

    1. Your “problem” with Dave is that he didn’t do anything. I actually commented on the same thing, dopey but you miss the real issue here. It’s Korth’s reaction. You seem to forget that he didn’t say, “This will never work” but rather he asked her for what he thought might turn him on. There is a huge difference. Still, he’s passive in a weird way, but he’s trying to work it out. Yet Korth will have none of it. Game over. Period. And Dave has been all about her in many ways up until this moment according to Korth. Driving a long way to see her, cooking for her and other things she mentions. She seemed to like him and think he was a good prospect for a relationship. She spent three days away with him – that’s no first date. But the second he tries to explain himself and ask for what he wants, she’s done – which again is superficial and an overreaction to the actual circumstances, not your mischaracterization of them. Fyi, this is the kind of thing that often happens when one tries to “reason” with a woman.

    2. Korth’s public reaction – She not only bails on Dave – which again, is her prerogative – no that’s not sufficient. Instead, she turns it into an article in a publication with a global audience. The screed of self-absorbed, new age woo woo hooey and narcissism that she spews out can only be explained as coming from someone who lives in a solipsism. It’s all me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Here’s a hint, Ben, about any relationship. Focusing on the other (in a healthy way) is what relationships are all about. This tirade also can be seen as an ego defense kind of response as she’s desperately trying to hold on to the illusion that her SMV is linked to her self-percieved “personal value”. She’s trying to assert that she really is attractive and that Dave is wrong for not seeing it, completely ignoring that attraction is visceral, not intellectual, for all of us.

    You have nothing to teach us, Ben. Stop lecturing. Pull the cotton out of your ears and stuff it in your fucking mouth and actually try to learn something while here. It could change your life if you weren’t being such a relentless dick.

  31. Glenn, dudebro, if you stop frothing at the mouth, you may start reading with comprehension (and spitting less). If you are trying to insult me, you’d have to do better than unleash your fears of emasculation on me.

    Re: no. 1 — nope, not what I said.

    Re: no. 2 — I agree.

  32. Dave ticked all her boxes, but he chose not to tickle her box.

    She asked him for honesty, he gave it to her. She got LJBF’d. Happens all the time to guys, after being strung along WAY FURTHER than that.

    Welcome to equality lady.

  33. Glen,

    You consistently and repeatedly state that “Dave” in Korths story (or whatever it is) should at least “try”. You stated “you’d think he’d at least try due to being opportunistic and see how it went”. Furthermore, you reinforce your thought by stating that YOU would have tried “something” by stating “I think if I’d decided to spend three nights in bed with her, I would have tried something of some sort.” We have no idea what “Dave” saw when the clothes came off. How can you make your assertion without knowing what Dave saw and experienced? You have made this assertion without any more facts than those in the story and you maintain the assertion amid controversy.

    Your statements indicate that you believe Dave was obligated to perform more sexual acts than he did. Specifically why do you think Dave should have tried anything? Who is he obligated to?

  34. Ben,

    I never spent much time on “critical self reflection”, never got so wrapped up in myself that I would describe it that way, never found anything so obscure and confusing that I kept repeating the same mistake over and over, never doubted that I could try something different to succeed, never had THAT hard a time learning. You apparently assumed I have. If so, you are wrong.

    In your comments you repeatedly make statements like “getting stronger”, “taking responsibility for your shit”. You state “this is why critical self reflection is crucial” and “the need for owning your projections and keeping self-pity at bay. You seem obsessed with this shit.

    Whose weakness, lack of responsibility and self pity are you REALLY concerned with?

  35. Ben,

    You don’t become a successful race car driver by staring at the dashboard. Success and failure cannot be experienced by self examination. In fact excessive self examination can be used as a “buffer”. Experience is the teacher, not introspection. Get out and drive.

  36. @Glenn

    “2. Korth’s public reaction…..”

    This is why I have no sympathy, and no empathy for her. If she can be so indiscreet about such matters, and attention whore about it then certainly anyone who encounters this is permitted an opinion not just of the article but the character of author as well.

    It’s her need to publicly discuss this, and the way she does it, that makes me think “Dave’s” actions, and statements are irrelevant. I almost feel sorry for him.

  37. Ben @ 5:59 – Though the forum here is entirely areligious (and I’m personally atheist) – You’re the gung-ho 21 y/o Christian kid who attends a new church and, in his infinite wisdom, ‘tells’ all the congregants every last thing about themselves by parsing their 1st hand observations upon society – and indeed about their own fathers, brothers, sons, and friends – in good faith candor. You’re that kid making an ignorant, obnoxious ass of himself in the company of adults. You’re that kid who doesn’t stick around a community of thoughtful adults for long, and a couple weeks later, the congregants all mutter ‘good riddance’.

  38. jf12
    July 17th, 2014 at 5:22 pm

    @M Simon, re: girls.

    We are kinda in the same age bracket – nice. It happens often enough when we are out that a 20 something will go nuts even with her around. Publicly she is amused. In private it rankles her until I remind her that the attractiveness other girls see is in part what attracted her to me.

    It is funny how they think they have a lock and key on you. I keep reminding her that it is her job to make me want her. There are still plenty of fish in the sea wanting to jump in my net. Without me even trying.

    It must be some kind of field around women that makes it so easy for them to deny reality.

    What has been lost is really immense. “I’ve landed my fish – now what?” Whereas in the manosphere information is exchanged – keep her off balance – is probably the best advice you will ever get if you want an LTR. Funny enough my dad practiced it even in our presence. If he saw a girl with a particularly nice rack nearby he would point it out to mom. My mom stayed bonded. My dad was committed to her but constantly reminded her that he was getting offers.

    I asked my #2 son the other day, “When are you going to find a couple of girls and settle down?” He knows Game. He was amused. Even the first mate smiled at that. Deep down they know.

  39. I have been avoiding the question. So I think it deserves an address. What would I have done if I was Dave? Even if I couldn’t get it up for her I would have rubbed her pussy until she came. Eaten her out if she would let me. I certainly wouldn’t have done nothing.

    Although I must say back in the day my best pick up line was “Lets snuggle naked. No sex. I like the body contact.” And other than some rubbing there was no sex. About 3/4s would come back gagging for it – “Is there something wrong with me?” was their thinking. And further – “I have to prove to myself I still have it.” And the other 1/4? I got to snuggle naked with them.

    Women get really avid if you can make them think it was their idea.

  40. New Yorker
    July 17th, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    One of the best ways to express your dominance is to get her in a situation where you could have sex. And don’t.

    See my: July 18th, 2014 at 2:13 am

    So what was wrong? Despite what she did (assuming there is any truth at all to her recital) Dave didn’t do anything to arouse her. Make her needy – in the moment.

    I was watching the news today about the Malaysia aircraft shoot down. What struck me was one couple with what looked liked a newborn who didn’t get on the plane. Their explanation was simple, “I have a bad feeling about this.” If you are awake the universe (what ever that means) sends you signals. Your job is to listen.

    I had an experience like that a long time ago. I was passing over a bit of ground with my first mate and it had a very ugly feeling. The mate noticed and remarked. I agreed. About 6 hours later a girl was killed there. Evidently she was ignoring the signals.

    To be a good Gamer you have to be open to all the signals. You have to quiet the internal noise. Betas (in fact most people and especially women) don’t do this.

  41. I was looking around on /r/theredpill after Rollo linked to it in one of the comments above, and found a fascinating book on hypergamy/female double standards – “The Manipulated Man” by Esther Vilar – do a google search and you can easily find a copy in .pdf format.

    Couldn’t help but wonder if anyone else here has read it. It’s fairly dated, but still explores many of the same (red pill) ideas that Rollo and others have presented here.

    I’m glad this blog is getting a bit of spotlight from Ms. Korth’s tweets; in fact, I hope more people besides Mr. Ben come here and attempt to challenge our ‘misogynistic’ viewpoints (preferably without the obvious trolling). I believe an honest debate could serve to improve the red pill arguments here, and possibly make them more palatable for the general population. That may be a tall order given our unfortunate tendency as a society to blindly protect all things feminine from real or perceived threats, but I like to be optimistic.

    Also, Rollo, thank you for creating this space and attempting to reach out to blue pill men – I’ve been an avid (though quiet) reader here for about a year and a half now, and I want you to know that the red pill ideas I’ve learned here have allowed me to VASTLY improve all aspects of my life. My parents divorced when I was very young, so I grew up with no father figure and no idea of what being a man means… for years I’ve been living as a willing slave to the few women in my life. Before I stumbled on the red pill, I was so lost and so pitifully beta that I didn’t even know where to start. You’ve all shown me that self-accountability and taking responsibility for my needs – being honest about them, especially to myself – is what it means to be a man, and for that I thank you.

  42. Steve H
    July 17th, 2014 at 5:43 pm

    When the first mate pulls that shit on me I tell her. “You go to counseling since you have the problem. Tell me how it turns out.” That usually quiets her down. Why would I want some beta counselor or worse a woman telling me anything about a relationship?

    My attitude is simple: make me happy and you will get what you want. Make me unhappy and you won’t even get a foot rub.

    And what do I tell her about it? “Eventually you will become needy and cater to me. And in return I will cater to you.” And what does she tell me when the pouting is over? “You were right.” So much so that it has become a joke between us.

    You can’t cure a woman. But you can keep her in check. And she will be happier for it. And thank you. When she is done pouting.

  43. jf12
    July 17th, 2014 at 5:25 pm

    See my July 18th, 2014 at 2:13 am

    I can’t tell you the number of women who looked at me after a night of naked snuggling and were thinking “OK. I let you talk me out of my clothes and you didn’t fuck me? What is wrong with you? What is wrong with me?” I pulled that on the first mate and years later she explained her thinking. When she came back for more she marched in with a mission. And I don’t mean that figuratively. She was marching. Every step had a purpose.

    The deal is you have to keep her aroused even if you do nothing more than that. You can’t just passively lay there. Find out what fantasies she likes and whisper in her ear. Rub her. Keep her wanting more.

  44. My first girlfriend gave me some advice I will never ever forget. Never give in to a woman. Ever.

    I would amend that a little: Never give in to a woman unless you are absolutely convinced you should change your behavior. If you have done something that does not bear repeating change it. And then throw it in her face to show that you have integrity.

    You not only need to be strong enough to resist them. You have to be strong enough to admit error. To surrender when warranted. And then you tell her she needs to surrender. And point out that you did.

    What ever you do use it as a tool to maintain dominance.

  45. It’s interesting to note that the woman who wrote that book, Esther Vilar, received and apparently continues to receive death threats over its content. Musta touched on a nerve something fierce with feminists. 😉

  46. Very interesting take on her article. I went back and reread it in light of your analysis. You are right: he tried communicating to her, albeit a bit clumsily, some rather tame suggestions on how she could make herself more sexually appealing to him. She summarily dismissed them as degrading and subservient. Apparently the hamster can be so strong that it can make a woman prefer to be alone rather than doing something solely for someone else’s pleasure.

  47. M. Simon,

    Yarr. It’s dated (think 1970s), so some of it is pretty funny. A few concepts seem to hit the nail on the head though, and from a slightly different perspective, which is why I found it a fascinating read.

  48. @ JGalt

    “but as someone who’s almost 50, I’m finding that women (and young women too) find me way more desirable than at any other time in my life right now. If anything, I think the peak SMV chart for males could be moved out to the right by another decade or more **IF** men really take care of themselves.

    “Granted, I’m in good physical shape, have a full head of hair, have an exciting life and probably look 7 years younger than my age, but those things all applied in my 30s as well and women paid absolutely NO attention to me.

    “It’s actually been a huge shock to my system to have 23-24 year old women blatantly approach, give me their phone numbers unprompted, buy ME drinks, flirt, make googly eyes at me, etc.”
    .

    There seem to be two paths of attraction: prediction of performance (genetics, as revealed by attractiveness), and objectively verifiable performance itself (health and power, over a period of time).

    On the one hand, “… physical traits are a confounder of ‘seduction’ competencies because relative deviations in physical characteristics can reliably signal developmental incompetence, from which sensory biases become fixed by evolutionary success”.

    In other words, those who were attracted to beauty (symmetry = no hidden defects), instead of other qualities, managed to pass on these preferences (biases) because they often predicted fitness (survival).

    On the other hand, survival also predicts survival.
    .
    .

    @ DeNihilist

    “Dave” is not interested in boning the older broads, he likes the younger ones. But as most men my age will eventually concede, especially after a good water boarding, the young ones motivate the dick, but rarely the brain. He was looking for an older broad that he could communicate with!”

    An old broad is no more capable of motivating the brain than she would have been when she was young. (Notice that I am talking about the same woman at different ages.)

    Woman stop maturing in their teens, after completing puberty, and then just continue to accumulate data. Actual communication is with the person, and not with her collection of facts, although they can make her seem smarter than she actually is.

    Communicating with a woman is much easier and more rewarding when she is young, because she is much more open, eager and enthusiastic.

    And a young woman can and will adapt herself instantaneously to the interests and level of sophistication of the man whom she desires.
    .

    “I objectify my mate of 30 years each and every day. It’s called being in love you fool!”

    When men bond with a woman, they begin to “build a life” (which is something that women do not do, or do not do as well, since they live more in the moment), so when men look at their mates, they see everything that they have experienced and built together.

    This is just another reason for women to marry young and stay with their men. Otherwise, as they age, men will see them only as what they are, objectively, at that later time.

  49. @George re: oneitis and soul-mates

    The thing with oneitis is that it signals to all and sundry that the sufferer is clingy, desperate and needy. Women find this creepy and stalkerish when it’s not reciprocated, though they’ve gotten to the stage of over-the-top exaggerating and stating that much of men’s desire is creepy.

    “Soul-mates” is the female socially-acceptable version.

    @Ben – white-knighting much? How many maidens you’ve rescued over the internet have rewarded you with sex?

    http://iameduard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/white-knight-3.jpg

  50. The Great American Princess cannot brook rejection. She has had her ass kissed for so long and so hard by the Great American Mangina she’s come to expect men to line up to compete to kiss her ass and prove themselves worthy of the privilege of her special pussy. (Really, is any vagina special when there are approximately 3.5 billion in the world?)

    Ms Korth ran into man with the courage to exhibit a wicked honesty reserved typically for the Great American Princess when she rejects suitors. And it shocks the entire Princess Nation. The thirsty mangina / finicky pedestalized princess has become a sacred social convention such that it shocks most when a man dares reverse the roles. It’s seen as if he brought Led Zeppelin, hookers, and cocaine to church Sunday morning.

    This is not the fault of feminism. It is the fault of thirsty American manginas who’ve caused American women to become entitled and caused their solipsism and narcissism to thrive like jungle vine.

    I’m guessing, after her article was published, scores of manginas fluttered about Ms. Korth to tell her sweet lies about her SMV. In fact, I guessed right. I just checked Korth’s Facebook page. See her July 15 post.

    Here’s one response to her July 15 post. It’s typical.

    “A friend of mine posted your article on my FB page and I respect her enough to read her material. Dave had maintained the high standards of men and that shallowness that comes with an entitled personality. No mystery to me he did not understand your point of view or even consider you HAD one. That man was evil and a fool and you are well rid of him. You have a marvelous view of life and its ups and downs. We live unfortunately in a culture that celebrates image before substance. I salute you as a person that knows the true value of who you are and what you can still and what you have been. The thing I admired the most from you was your lack of bitterness towards him. You had compassion though he deserved none. Take comfort that there is little likelihood he will ever achieve true happiness.”

    Here’s another:

    ” I just read your text ‘Naked Truth’ and shared it… I admire someone like you and I you love to meet someone who thinks like you… This what every woman should think… The man you are talking of in the text, if he really exists, went by a treasure without seeing it…”

    Question . . . are erectile dysfunction pills consumed primarily by men with erectile dysfunction or by men with middle aged women who can no longer give them boners? Put your typical Viagara consumer in bed with a 22 year old HB 9 . . . boner or no boner? My guess is boner.

  51. Blackpoisonsoul

    I agree. Furthermore, I think “soul mate” craving is literally a personally self deluding and misdirected craving for dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins, etc which are released into the brain during sex. Real physiological, biochemical and physical phenomena influence and control behavior. Ideology is usually nothing more than superficial and almost without exception induces theatrical behavior. Fundamentally all behavior is motivated and controlled by perceived risks and rewards. No need to debate the reward regarding sex.

  52. Ishmael,

    I read the manipulated man several years ago. Little wonder that Vilar is from a different culture than the U.S. I highly doubt any woman in the U.S. would have written such a book especially at the time. To me, her book is somewhat superficial and she comes off as being quite angry. However, it is very true. Everyone I shared it with responded defensively, some were emotionally violent. No one I discussed the book with attacked her observations, or her statement, her thesis. Everyone attacked her personally or attacked her analogies. It became very apparent to me that most felt threatened, male and female.

    I do not believe there is a universal female “conspiracy” but extremely effective social conditioning exists that influences behavior. The conditioning is far more effective at influencing behavior than any conspiracy could ever be. Conspiracies are fragile and always fail at some point. The kind of social conditioning at play here is far more powerful and prolonged.

    I hope communication on this site and in the “manosphere” dispels the curse both men and women have been living with.

  53. The more I think about it, the more likely it is Korth faked at least half her story. The whole thing may be a fake and may as well be. It is meaningless.

  54. Obviously Korth is receiving a lot of words in response to her story. I doubt she is receiving any worthy dick.

  55. Ah Eon, last time I was chatting with a pretty young thing, I mentioned that my favourite band was Jethro Tull.

    Blank.

    That is what I mean. The older broad will probably have the same cultural memories. Easier to hang with.

  56. @ DeNihilist

    I did an open mike night where I recited the lyric a half dozen Jethro Tull songs though they were high brow poetry. The crowd was 12-15 years younger than I. Only a few of the guys recognized the famous English poet I. Anderson.

  57. @ George I don’t know if I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood me. I was commenting in that comment on Dave’s betaness in matters of sex and really was just speculating. I offered several scenarios where I might be able to get turned on, fyi, by a woman who wasn’t that physically attractive at first. I was actually thinking about a particular women I found kind of unattractive who gave me the most amazing and erotic massage, and at a certain point her fervor was contagious and bammo, it was on. I never said or implied Dave owed her anything – yet you insist that’s what I meant. But I did wonder if he’d been dominant and aggressive? Women will work hard to please me when I behave that way, it always amazed me – and finally, now I know why. I thought they were women with abuse issues or something, lol. Just imagine when Robin refused if Dave had pushed her down on the bed, one hand on her throat and got up close to her ear and said, “In the rest of your life, you can be this independent strong woman, but when you are in bed with me you are my little fucktoy and you will do exactly what I tell you. You will come when I tell you to and you will do what I want you to, when I want you to. Now go get a bottle of massage lotion, and start on my back but get to the balls pretty quick. I want to see if you can actually make me hard.” Many beta guys think Robin would bolt, but in fact, every woman I’ve gotten sexually aggressive with like that has responded like a nyphomaniac on a popper.

    Tell me, have you ever been opportunistic sexually? Ever had sex with someone in the dark, under the covers who you might not otherwise?. I’m not saying this happens regularly, but it’s certainly part of my sexual experience. As well, I think that if I spent 3 nights sharing a bed with a woman I was dating – defacto interested in romantically – I might make a move, and it might not pan out. I had a situation like that with a crazy girl from LA. We end up in my bed and were kissing and stuff – I’m trying to give it a chance as I’d brought her back to my place, but was feeling conflicted. But when it came time to do the deed, I was pushing a noodle, so I stopped and said I’m sorry, this just isn’t working for me. This was due to the fact that I thought she was kind of nutz and I learned long ago that fucking a crazy woman is rarely worth the drama, and couldn’t shake the sense that I would regret it.

    Of course she went crazy, made a scene and stormed out of my place in the middle of the night without having a hotel room in Manhattan despite me telling her she could have my bedroom, I’d sleep on the couch etc. Nope. But that’s what I mean about “trying”. Fyi, I never felt like I owed her sex, but rather was being experimental and seeing what happened. I even felt like I’d led her on a bit so in that sense I probably did “try” a little more than I might have otherwise. What, does that make me a slave to woman? Lol.

    Every woman I ever turned down for sex went crazy like that on me. I remember another incident where a 25 yr old coworker was in town when I was 39. We had spent an entire day together and I had put her up in a great Phillipe Stark designed hotel on the west side of NYC. I was very nice to her and enjoyed her company all day, but didn’t make a pass. I have fucked a bunch women I worked with, but like I said above, I know girls who I will regret fucking and I could tell if I just fucked her and moved on that it would be bad news in the office etc. So I walk her to her room, and she makes a move. I kiss back for a second and then push her off, saying that I’d rather not. The look of shock on her face and the hysteric ranting that followed were unbelievable to me. And I was actually attracted to her – but that didn’t mean I was going to have sex and fuck up my job or work life. Pussy isn’t worth that to me. Robin’s reaction is the exact same as every woman I’ve turned down.

    Does that make any sense to you? This stuff occurs on a continuum for me and my intellect/cognition interacts with it, and it can also switch on and off on dime sometimes. Just sayin’…

  58. You really explained this well – especially the personal value vs. sexual market value. That’s so interesting that the girlfriend said that you men shouldn’t know this! My mom always taught me that a woman’s value went down as she got older (not personal value of course – she was really talking about sexual value – just never said those exact words), while a man’s value generally goes up. It’s something that was just a fact – but not really in a bad way – age gracefully and keep in shape…? Eventually both men and women lose their smv’s when they get old enough. Really loved how you wrote this though.

  59. @M Simon. re: snugglewuggles. Comfort game is the only game I knew for 50 years. But it’s beta game, pure and simple. Don’t confuse the successes of beta game with what you could have pulled with alpha game, or what I might as well go ahead and call discomfort game.

    Seriously, think about it *specifically* in terms of causing discomfort. Very sesriously.

  60. jf12
    July 19th, 2014 at 1:21 am

    I think it depends on how you play it. If you have sex with them the first time you get in bed with them. Beta game.

    No sex and they come back avid for it. Alpha game.

    The point is that you show you are not a needy Beta.

    Early on I decided that if the girl wasn’t into it I wasn’t interested. The game I played sorted that as well. If she just gave in because I ran a good Game and then had second thoughts, well, she didn’t come back. Fine with me. Excellent in fact. Avoided all the nastiness you see these days. You know – three days later and its rape.

    And I didn’t just do twosomes. Numerous threesomes as well. Including one that lasted about 6 months with a lesbian and her bipartner. The lesbian later went straight. When I was “breaking her in” the lesbian used to sit on my face while her partner sat on my other end. Couldn’t see much but it gave me 4 Ds to play with. Tasty. The lesbian LOVED making out with me while I was in her partner. Tasty. Both of the girls were (depending on your rating scale) at least 8s. I rated them 9s. That adventure got another girl (9) interested. When I broke up with the girls she just had to find out what it was all about. Good times.

    “Snuggles” wasn’t the only Game I played. But it was the one I liked the best.

    The thing is, I enjoyed being bonded to the girl for as long as the bond lasted. I didn’t enjoy the unbonded sex experience. And I had a few of those early on.

    Was my n WAY WAY up there? No. Did I enjoy it immensely? Yes. I had more options than i chose to take advantage of. I’m sorry but sport fucking never appealed to me. I preferred relationships as long as they lasted. But I have to say I did screw some girls along the way just because I could.

    Other guys would actually tell me to my face – “How do you get such good looking girls? What do they see in YOU?”

    And I STILL have 20 somethings come on to me even at my age. Not the sign of a Beta. I KNOW how to exude the bad boy aura. Because it sure isn’t my looks or physique. Three years in a MC gang may have had something to do with that. I still enjoy hanging out at biker bars although I no longer ride.

    I’m sure if we met we would get along fine.

  61. Every girl is to some extent different. Some like to be dominated one way. Some like other ways. I got the girls that liked my style of domination. And amusingly enough my ex-GFs were very comfortable with the new GF. I made a point of introducing them if they were not in the same circle. I didn’t leave much bitterness in my wake. And the new GF? Well she was on her toes because she knew I had options.

    There are 3.5 billion girls out there. There is no ONE Game that gets them all. There ARE general principles. Domination is that principle. But there are styles of domination. Some like mind games. Some like competition. Some like being choked. I played the game I preferred.

    Ohm’s Law is universal. But ALL resistors of the same value are not suited to every application. Never use a wire wound where a metal film is the better (or only working) option.

  62. Doms (of the S&M type) are very careful to pick out girls who need their type of domination. I was no less careful. It keeps them coming back for more.

  63. Or take writing. All writers (in a given language) use the same words. And people like one writer and detest others. Same words, different styles and points of view.

    It is in a way like religion. Far too many who find one that works for them BELIEVE they have found the one true religion and every one should adhere to that faith. I’m more of an eclectic in all respects.

    What ever works for you.

  64. “If you have sex with them the first time you get in bed with them. Beta game.
    No sex and they come back avid for it. Alpha game.”

    The key to it all from M Simon. Now, please, go forth and and dispel this notion that early sex somehow creates relationships. It ends them. It makes the man too “easy.” This is where the game of men who follow pick up advice when what they really want are relationships falls down. If you want a relationship, you have to demonstrate your superiority by your ability to wait. A man in control, not of them, but of himself, is what really attracts women. Attempts to control a woman directly are weakness; absolute control of himself is a strength that causes a woman to stay in line.

  65. Nobody else notice how the women respond en mass with indignation etc, the men with nuanced opinion? Ignorance is strength as it provides a united front.

  66. I get you, Rollo, but that’s not what I said. I said the man was making the woman wait. Completely different than a woman making a man wait. In that case, the woman has the power; in M Simon’s, he does. Men witholding sex until there’s a relationship: the ultimate script flip 🙂

  67. M Simon, not the waterboarding I had in mind! LMFAROTFP!

    Was thinking of the old boring one, but may prefer this style next time!

  68. Kate, I think it depends where you are in your life.

    My wife and I had sex on our first date, on the couch, in the rec room, directly below her parents bedroom..

    Thirty years later we are still going at it, not to say it has been perfect, far, far from it. We have had points of the whole thing crashing, just as recent as a year ago, to points where like now, we wonder what all the fuss was aboot.

  69. I do, too, DeNihilist. None of what I’m talking about is necessary for the kind of experience you’ve described. Reports from the front indicate things have radically changed even within the last ten years and that tougher stances are necessary to build modern relationships.

  70. @ Glenn

    Spot on in regard to dominant behavior in bed. The woman will respond to dominance in an incredibly sexual way and will assume something is wrong at any sign of hesitation. Any passivity will result in at best, disinterested sex.

    @ M Simon

    Spot on in regard to dominance and knowing yourself. Really excellent comments.

  71. “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” even if in her wrath she draws her humiliation to the notice of everyone and especially insane Misogynists.

    🙂

  72. http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/study-looks-matter-less-to-women-than-they-do-to-men/

    Men dig beauty.
    Chicks dig power.
    The rest is commentary.

    And thanks Rollo for the link it made me look around. And Kate told you what I was going to say. Only she said it better.

    Kate
    July 19th, 2014 at 11:22 am

    Thanks! You remind me of my first GF. The one who taught me game. Back in ’62. Awakeness in a woman is a very rare commodity. I was VERY lucky.

  73. Dude, what is she supposed to do? If the guy doesn’t find her hot, that is no basis for a relationship. She can’t go through life wondering how repulsive she is to her mate on that day, and what she could do to mitigate this. She was right to end it.
    The guy was a schlub for leading her on like that. A man knows at a glance whether the woman is hot or not.
    This is coming from an alpha male who is fully red-pill aware.

  74. @M Simon – Uh, I guess all those alpha guys who fuck a girl the first night are mistaken, lol. I have no idea what you are talking about. I have sex with a woman when I want to have sex with a woman. In fact, your manipulativeness sounds kind beta to me, like you are so concerned with being dominant that you get in your own way. When I want to fuck a women, I fuck her. I never let a woman be dominant in bed though. Not for strategy’s sake, but because I don’t enjoy it.

    Maybe you are thinking about a situation where a guy is working hard to get a woman in bed but she’s “making him wait”? I had a GF like this once where it was about 4 weeks before we had actual sex. I set her straight immediately when she pulled the “no, I’m not ready” the first time after a heavy makeout session at her apt on date 2. I pulled back, pushed her off me roughly and said. “I’m not in fucking high school. I’m not going to get all revved only for you to leave me wanting. If you aren’t ready, I respect that – I don’t understand that – but I’ll respect it. For a little while. In the meantime, no makeout sessions, and don’t make me wait too long.” She was shocked but I took all her power away in that moment.

    We should discuss the class of woman who warns you before you have sex that she can’t have an orgasm and how to deal with that. Short answer – tell her to shut up and that she will come when you let her and want her to, fyi. Or in the case of the woman I described who wanted me to “wait”, when I finally took her, it was pretty rough and although she had warned me that it was “really hard for her to come with a guy (36 yr old sex in the city girl who used her vibrator way too much)”, she exploded in a wild orgasm within seconds of entering her. And THEN she began to punch and slap me, as she was so angry that I had that effect on her.

    I’ve seen this with several 30 something women, and I always just laugh at them. I see it for what it is – a stupid control game and I am having none of that in the bedroom. Although the last one to do that eventually bored me and I let her go frigid again, lol, and then left. But while I was into her, I owned her orgasm. She was my sex toy. I did all this instinctively, never really understanding why or having real technique. But I always knew back then that women running the show sexually was a disaster. This is part of my commentary on Dave – I don’t understand his passivity.

    Rollo, any thoughts on the withholding orgasm? (N.B. – not interested in a female perspective on this or anything else here, for the record).

  75. “a man is expected to see a woman’s inner beauty and want to fuck her with wanton abandon”

    Women _assume_ that men are in meat market mode alla time. Ain’t necessarily so. For some of us, dancing is just dancing. Not dancing to pick up. Not dancing to get a number. Not dancing to get a bj in the head. (Pun intended.) Still, women lean in alla time. If men did that crap alla time, it’d be “Rape!”

  76. Glenn
    July 19th, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    I get her in bed right away. I don’t fuck her right away.

    I like to go after the hard to get chicks. So I offer “naked snuggles, no sex.” You can’t believe how many are disappointed that I keep my promise. They figure once they give in the sex is inevitable. When they come back to find out “what is wrong with me” the sex is incredible. She is primed to try VERY hard.

    I’m not interested in chicks who succumb to my Game. I’m interested in those who actually want to be with me for a while. My Game is just a first step. My Game serves my desires. If your Game suits your desires I’m absolutely fine with that.

    As I said – the idea that one size fits all is nuts.

    Kate gets it. You don’t. I’m fine with that. Kate is my target. You are not.

    Let me quote Kate: Men witholding sex until there’s a relationship: the ultimate script flip. And I don’t wait long. The relationship need not be forever. Only for a time is OK. But I like bonded sex. I tried the other kind. It didn’t work for me.

    Sex without a bond doesn’t appeal to me. And the bond might only last for an afternoon or it might last 40 years. But that is what I like. Your telling me I should like something else is nuts. I follow MY script not yours.

    And if it looks Beta to you I’m OK with that. I’m at home in my skin. Shaming doesn’t work. And I’m not jealous that you n is far higher than mine. (although it is probably not nearly as low as you imagine) Go for what you want. I do.

  77. As to orgasms. I have heard frequently from my ladies things like “That was my first orgasm with a man” or “Best sex I ever had”. But I don’t do it the same way you do. There is no one key. Your style works with the girls you attract. Excellent. My style works with the girls I attract.

    There is no universal attractant.

    I figure what I do attracts one out of ten. So what is the pool I have to work with? 350 million. Say 90% are married or otherwise occupied. 35 million. That is more than enough.

    In any case as I said up thread: my work in design gives me more permanent satisfaction than all the fu king I ever did.

  78. from Kate:“The key to it all from M Simon. Now, please, go forth and and dispel this notion that early sex somehow creates relationships. It ends them. It makes the man too “easy.” This is where the game of men who follow pick up advice when what they really want are relationships falls down…

    Is that the newer version of the protection of the classified information. Like the guy who’s girlfriend read some of rational male and agreed with it but said that “guys should not know this”?
    If the desire is created, and he wants to go ahead and do it, waiting doesn’t add any benefit to him. And it doesn’t make him beta if he does have sex early. Creating the desire puts him in the realm of alpha, not the wait time.
    Will doing chores make you sexy?
    That sounds like a Sandbergism.

  79. water cannon boy
    July 20th, 2014 at 12:10 pm

    If you read this bit by Kate I think you will understand her a bit better.

    http://demarkate.com/index.php/14-relationship-realism/61-safety-in-alphas

    She does point out one very important fact. Women are looking for protectors. That is part of the appeal of the bad boy.

    In my case even when the first mate is giving me a shit storm of shit tests she always chimes in that I’m a good protector. Out in the wild (i.e. not at home) she trusts me to keep her out of trouble.

    My method is not direct. I sense trouble coming and avoid it.

  80. “There is no universal attractant.”

    I do not think that statement is true. Stereotypes/heuristics exist bc of their universality.

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