As a few of my readers know my daughter is presently a sophomore at college. Every time she reaches a new milestone in her life I have a tendency to mentally go back in time in my own life and consider how utterly different her experiences are in comparison to my own. At 19 the thought of being as organized and honestly well off as she is in life now would never have occurred to me. For a very brief moment in my life back then I’d kept a journal of what it was I was doing and thinking at the time. My first ‘real’ girlfriend had given me this blank journal (she was one of those girls who wrote diaries) to write my thoughts in and being the Beta I was then most of it was filled with my Blue Pill frustration with girls. She’d gifted me this journal, I found out later, as an effort to absolve her of all the guilt she knew was coming her way for having cheated on me and deciding that, at 18 herself, she wanted to move on into her Party Years without the baggage of a dutiful Beta who thought he was going to marry her.
This was 1988 and the then 19 year old Rollo Tomassi was very much a typical Blue Pill Beta. I sometimes read back through the dozen or so pages I actually took the time to write back then to remind myself how I thought back then. I was very much and idealistic Beta back then, but I had several other friends who subscribed to the same Blue Pill delusions; and now with hindsight I realize this phase in a Beta’s life is one that was around long before and long after I went through it. This was the ‘Break Phase’ I outline in Preventive Medicine.
As it turned out, the girl who I predictably developed ONEitis for, the first girl to spread her legs for me (‘enthusiastically’), the girl I thought had to be “quality” if she appreciated a guy like me, was every bit the ‘play the field’ skank I would’ve never called her because it was what a “typical male” would say about her. At one point I had thought I’d want to marry her. My Blue Pill conditioning had taught me it would be the right, “supportive” thing to do; marry her and support her ambitions and goals (it’s what good Blue Pill boys ought to do) at the sacrifice of my own. And as directionless as I was then, that was an easy decision to make.
My daughter recently informed me that her boyfriend’s best friend just proposed to his girlfriend at 19. Both this guy and his girlfriend are also sophomores at the same school and this is what triggered the reminiscing for me. At 49, and having lived the life I have and the experiences I use on this blog today, I’m very glad my first girlfriend dumped me. That’s hard to say sometimes, particularly when I think back on the pit of misery years I spent with the BPD girlfriend I’d gotten involved with later, but I’m thankful for those bad experiences as much as the good ones. So, it’s really difficult for me to tell my daughter’s friend “oh, congratulations”.
It’s very difficult for me to endorse anyone getting married at so early an age these days or when I was 19. Modern marriage is a menagerie of horrors for today’s men. People say, “Rollo you’re married, how come you’re so hard on marriage?” It’s either that or they presume my marriage is a shit show and I’m venting like a petulant boy. When I’m critical of marriage it’s in spite of my own (very happy for 21 years) marriage. But I cannot condone it for men today – not in its present state. Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I’ve written in many prior posts that I don’t necessarily agree with that assessment, but I do understand it. The risks today far outweigh the rewards, but still there are men who, even with Red Pill awareness, will still take it on.
There’s a running debate I have going on with Hunter Drew (The Family Alpha) and Tanner Guzy (Masculine Style) about how marriage is a lifestyle decision, and depending on how informed a man is about the risks he assumes and when he decides to get married, this decision is literally a question of life or death for that guy. Both these guys married early in life, both have kids, and both will have far different experiences than myself in this respect. Both of them and myself have assumed the risks and sacrifices this entails. I’m fully aware that my wife can detonate the marriage at any time. I’m sure both Hunter and Tanner are well aware that their wives also have the right to have them removed from their home and take their children away from them for any reason. But we’re all married, and as I wrote in Surrender, we have all willingly put ourselves in the most vulnerable position a man can be in; we’ve bet our lives, livelihoods and the future health and happiness of our kids and families on what today is the ultimate suckers bet for a man. And what’s worse, we cannot ever expect women or our wives to ever relate with just how dangerous a position we willingly put ourselves in.
So I’m thinking about all of this after my daughter tells me about this 19 year old kid proposing to his girlfriend. Statistically his marriage will end before he’s 28. I would also bet that, like myself at 19, he’s making a decision that will affect him and his fiancé’s based on Blue Pill idealism – an idealism that’s informed by the Feminine Imperative and delusions of egalitarian equalism. Naturally I can’t possibly think this is a good idea. If I were this boy’s father I’d strongly advise against it, but there are others in the manosphere who would encourage this.
“Grown” Men
There’s an old saying that goes “marriage is our last, best chance for growing up”. I also disagree with this from the perspective of today’s version of marriage, but I understand how homey platitudes like this are appealing to a social order of men who it seems don’t want to grow up. It’s becoming a new way of AMOGing (particularly in religious circles); if you’ve got your shit together enough to see the wisdom in being married and starting a family you’re a “better man” than the ‘boys’ who they believe want to extend their adolescence. It’s really nothing new.
According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.
This is one half of strategic pluralism theory for men. Men who invest themselves in the long term aspect will always look for ways to validate their inability or unwillingness to pursue multiple partners. It’s easy to think that these men make their necessity a virtue, and that may or may not be the case, but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. The Blue Pill has always subjugated men to be predisposed to the one-mate investment strategy while simultaneously encouraging women to adopt a multiple mate strategy. That may seem counterintuitive, but when we look at the Sheryl Sandberg plan for Hypergamy we can see that what they believe is prudence is having a large selection of potential husbands from which to choose.
In Trad-Con manosphere thinking it seems like conventional wisdom to encourage men and women to marry younger. Look at where we’re at today; women forestall marriage – ostensibly to further a career, but really to falsely extend their Hypergamous decision making years – until their Epiphany Phase (29-31) or even beyond by freezing their eggs. Men take much more time to mature into their peak SMV potential, but what’s the common complaint? These men aren’t “being men” by preparing themselves for a life of family and marriage. They aren’t catering their lives’ decisions to fulfill women’s sexual strategy, and really what incentive do they have to when women are following the Sandbergian path of Hypergamy? Men and women marry later and later – if at all. Women unmarried by the time they’re 34-35 are likely to never marry in their lives.
Marrying Early
So it seems like wisdom to tell this kid, “good on you”, in spite of all the odds staked against him and despite the Blue Pill idealistic delusions that are prompting him to propose. Trad-Cons love the idea of a return to something resembling “traditional values” in order to save western culture from itself, but it’s important to remember that those old books values are really just leverage in a new books world.
Marrying early, as I said, is usually the result of Blue Pill naiveté. Both young men and women are still ignorant of who they are or who they have a potential to become. I see a lot of early-marrieds originating in religious circles because this is their only means to “legitimate” sex, but there are the guys who see marrying early a better way to ensure ‘permanent’ sex for themselves. In some respects it’s almost a blessing that women at this age are so anti-marriage – most young men on the investment side of strategic pluralism are far too willing to kill their own dreams to accommodate their investment.
Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally, but it doesn’t remove the evolved influence. By the time that 20 year old mother and wife is 30, she’s had ten years to develop the resentment of her choice by living vicariously through her single girlfriends’ experiences. The context may change, but Hypergamy doesn’t.
Early marriage limits a man’s potential. Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Aristotle said, “The Ideal age for marriage in men is 35. The Ideal age for marriage in women is 18”, not unlike my sexual market value graph, but the reason for this is because it takes much longer for a man to establish himself as a man. The simple truth is that part of the sacrifice of being married means a man will not be able to capitalize on opportunities he would have were he single. Some opportunities may never even be made available to him because of him being married. This isn’t something most early-marrying men consider.
Men who marry early and stick it out through their peak SMV years often feel the mid-life crisis (epiphany) years much more acutely. This is kind of the man’s making up for missing out resentment a wife may feel as she becomes more and more aware that she can’t compete in the SMP for a better Hypergamous prospect. I don’t believe men have a “crisis” per se around this time, but what they do experience is a sense of introspection that’s colored by their now better capacity to understand the game they’ve been a part of with regards to women. When a man’s married well this is less of an issue, but there is a definite remorse over the “life he could’ve lived” if only he’d known better. This is an assessment of the sacrifices he’s made, how they paid off (if at all) and a sort of survey of his life up to that point.
The biggest ‘con’ to early marriage is that it’s always going to be a learn as you go prospect while trying to establish a world that a his wife of the future will want to defer herself to. This worked far better in a culture and time when women would be compelled to defer to a man’s mastery due to religion, social norms and respect. We do not live in those day anymore and women have actionable ‘outs’ of any commitment that doesn’t suit them, while men have more responsibilities to qualify themselves to suit women.
Advantages?
Early marriage has a few advantages, but all of these depend on the personal nature of the woman a man marries. That sounds kind of obvious, but if you go into a marriage with a solid Frame and a woman who expects to defer to your dominance, I think young marrieds might have a better shot at long term success. If a woman is a virgin, yes, this can be a real source of attachment for her if her husband imprints on her as solidly dominant Alpha. I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate. There is far too significant and imprinting with virgin women and sex with an Alpha man, or even a guy who seemed Alpha. This is the recipe for an Alpha Widow, but in a marriage it can make for a strong bond.
As has been mentioned countless times, the most stable and healthy way to raise children is in a committed marriage. This might be the only advantage marriage may have for a man today. In an early marriage I would think that a woman being at her sexual market value peak, combined with following her true biological clock (her prime fertility window 22-26) the odds of having happy healthy children are improved. I have a cousin who spent more than half his life building himself into a millionaire architect, but at my age (49) his children are 5 and 7. I can’t imagine living this life now. I suppose money might make it easier, but evolutionarily speaking he and I should effectively be grandfathers by now. I married at 28 and there are advantages and disadvantages to this as well, but I cannot imagine having young children at my age.
Finally, for the “well, duh” moment, it goes without saying that a young wife/mother should necessarily be playing on your team. The only possible successful prospect for a younger marriage to have any stability is if that woman understands what it is she’s sacrificing. Women likewise sacrifice their own personal potentials and later this becomes their source of resentment. The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage.
In the Trad-Con sphere today there is a constant droning for personal responsibility on the part of men. There is little to none about the responsibilities of women. We’re constantly told that women are only the way they are because men have allowed it. I’ve written before that this is a cop out and an absolving of women’s complicity that mirrors what the Feminine Imperative has put forth. Women are taught not to do anything “for a man” and anything a woman does that might be expressly for a man is is conflated with subservience. Consequently we get generations of women who only indulge their natural solipsism and expect men’s sacrifices as part of the utilities. This is one of the primary reasons all marriages fail; there is no complementarity. Marriage becomes nothing but a naked exchange of resources on the part of the man and anything a woman might do ‘for’ him is frowned upon. And don’t think this is just limited to those blue haired feminists, you can find it at your church.
Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.
*full OF shit
j
February 12, 2018 at 11:52 am
No you don’t need money to game but you will be stressed out living paycheck to paycheck
It never stressed me out. It may be because I had a near death experience when I was in my 20s. A guy held a 45 to my head and wanted answers. Lucky enough, I had them.
I don’t sweat the small stuff. And compared to a bullet in the brain everything else is small stuff.
We all have a total of one resource in life no matter who we are. That resource is of an unknown amount but it’s always limited. It’s time. Money is merely an abstraction for time. Debt is money given to you at a cost of more money in the future. It is quite literally giving you future hours of your life (which you would eventually get anyway) at the cost of other future hours of your life straight in to somebody else’ pocket. When you realize that someone is taking hours of your life to give you hours of your… Read more »
“The thing to avoid when starting out on your own path is debt. Debt is slavery. That’s why it’s pushed”
Sentient A while back I had this type of conversation with a 28 year old guy – Me: you realize you’re broke? Him: No, I’m doing great. Me: how much do you earn? Him: In my new position, I’ll be making 65 thousand this year.*smiles*. Me: how much is your rent? Him: 3,100 monthly. Me: how much credit card debt are you carrying and paying interest on? Him: I have a 20 thousand limit across 2 cards, but I only use half of that and I stay current and even pay more than what’s due. Me: how much do you… Read more »
” Debt is slavery. That’s why it’s pushed.”
co sign
http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/state-laws-on-marriage.html
https://www.ranker.com/list/highest-u-s-divorce-rates-by-state/taylor-ratcliff
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/13/5-facts-about-love-and-marriage/
Thank God for credit cards….😠
Blax
Sad.
J
If the government did not back student loan debt, 20% of kids that do today would go to college. In line with historical norms.
College loan debt is a massive scheme perpetrated on the middle class to ensure slavery. It’s a delusion that’s been programmed as a right, a necessity. It’s pure evil.
@Blax
$3200 in rent, paying on a BMW, paying on student loans, and carrying $10k in CC debt at a $65k/yr job? Lol, the obliviousness. I was paying $1400/mo with no CC debt (I pay all monthly expenses on CC then pay off 100% for points each month) and a paid off VW while making $120k/yr and found that I can probably by a 200-300k-ish house for that rent amount.
Oh yeah, I forgot my final thought-
This guy lives in a very nice apt in a fairly new high rise, and is driving a beemer he bought new, so it’s hard to tell him ” you’re doing this wrong “. Easy credit isn’t a plan, cards don’t actually fill gaps.
“RP is not a value system”
Untrue.
RP = value yourself preeminently.
There’s plenty of room to discuss religion as long as it’s not explicit churchy, guilt-ridden, top down, rote jibber jabber. Which leave little, I’d guess, from most experiences. The RP concepts are there but they’re too co-opted and used against men’s interests.
Most existential issues are well explained philosophically, religion is one means of explaining them.
Those themes are more effectively discussed elsewhere.
Blax
Your boy is not in a Fuck You position.
There are two ways to get there
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI
Lot’s of money
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpVsymHLXcQ
No money.
@ Sun
Jersey is prohibitively expensive. Highest car insurance, and I’m sure we have the highest property taxes. I don’t have a mortgage ( I refuse. Pay for home or live in car…lol ) but property taxes are over 7 thousand and rising.
Meh, could be worse. I think Christy paid 30 grand in property taxes.
So it’s even more crucial not to start out amassing huge debts.
But that BMW is nice. Lol.
Eh
“The RP concepts are there”
Plenty of good RP stories. The Garden of Eden is about all one needs to know about women, hypergamy, burden, right there.
Ha… Remember watching that episode after school.
Habd if you don’t value marriage, don’t get one… This right here. That is a total cop out answer to the question posed by a younger guy asking OMGs why get married? I mean sure, its true as far as it goes. But it simply does not address the question being asked. That ain’t the FI, man. More than that, its an abdication of your responsibility as an elder to help mentor the next generation of men. And its endemic throughout society, and is why we are where we are. Don’t blame the FI for this. Why are younger people… Read more »
Blax
When I was 22 i had negative net worth. Getting a downpayment on a house seemed a lifetime away, if possible at all.
At 24 i had a mortgage and paying that off seemed like it would be impossible.
2.5 years later I was debt free. Mind you everyone said it was a huge mistake to pay off my home, even my accountant.
Cause… Reasons.
Never regretted it.
Dealing in cash focuses you.
Peterson. It’s not close
“If Hank won a 21 Convention lottery and he was given telephone access to a life coach/mentor for two years (and two weeks in the field each month) and had a lineup of choices to choose from, which one would he choose. Say there were ten choices of mentors. Included were Rollo Tomassi, Jordan Peterson, Blaximus, Sentient and YaReally.”
Peterson
Eh,
RP = value yourself preeminently.
true.
“Why are younger people collectively telling their elders they’re full of shit?”
This happens throughout history and will never end. In fact, it will accelerate as tech goes ballistic.
And guess what? The young’uns are sometimes right, sometimes wrong. It depends. Note the old vs the new set of books.
Just Beers
““Why are younger people collectively telling their elders they’re full of shit?””
Reminds me of the 18yo kid who comes home after graduating college and is amazed how smart his dad got in those four years…
That shit right there is straight up post-modernism. That’s correct, but as you say TRP is not a value system. TRP is a praxeology — it is a group of views and tools to be tailored to your own value system, whatever that may be. We try not to get into conversations about those value systems, not because none of us has them, or because all of us are post-modernist nihilists (although a good number are de facto nihilists I think), but because getting into those discussions is divisive and inevitably derails the focus from praxeology that is TRP. I… Read more »
“A guy held a 45 to my head and wanted answers. Lucky enough, I had them.”
“It’s Ecuador’s tallest mountain”
“What is … Chimborazo!”
“That is correct, Simon.”
“OK, Alex, I’ll take Peaks and Valleys for $800”
I have literally NO idea how you guys can keep up with these posts and respond to them in a timely manner, unless you don’t have jobs. There is so much thought-provoking material here, I feel compelled to read it all first, in case someone already posted a similar sentiment. The problem is that then I never find myself caught up enough to post. Seriously, how do you regulars do it? I am only on page 10 of these comments, but I decided to skip ahead and comment anyway. One perspective I don’t really see represented here is the recently… Read more »
Nova to the rescue. Good points man. I can definitely appreciate that. In general though it shouldn’t be that difficult to bring those discussions into the mix by simply saying “I” choose x because …. and then refrain from attacking another man’s reasons. Because it isn’t any of your business, why he chooses x. That’s a way to communicate and transmit values and meaning without arguing about who is right or wrong. As many say here, it isn’t about right/wrong. That’s all a young guy wants to hear, anyway. Why did YOU get married? Why do YOU stay married? And… Read more »
@Rollo: I haven’t followed Athol Kay’s “transformation” closely (and in fact it seems to me Athol was always Purple Pill, but he seems to have definitively veered towards a Bluer shade due to economic reasons – much like RSD, in my opinion). But as I understand it, true Red men like HABD and Sentient were pretty much ran out of those message boards, so I don’t think it is a stretch of imagination that mentioning or directing other men in Athol Kay’s communities towards Red Pill or Rational Male will get erased / banned. If that is the case, I’m… Read more »
Sentient
Sounds like you’re doing something right with your son. Great job.
The exception doesn’t prove the rule, tho.
Marelius, great story.
That inspired me.
“This isn’t a cult obviously, but there is a fair amount of cult-like behavior on this forum- especially when it comes to “helping” guys unplug and it isn’t healthy. It will definitely limit the reach of RP, if not checked, IMO.”
It’s called masculine tribal behavior. If your not in the circle on then inside of the perimeter, sure I’d bet it really emotionally feels like cult-like behavior.
And it’s been decided before, there are a couple different tribes operating.
Unhealthy.😁
“there is a fair amount of cult-like behavior on this forum- especially when it comes to “helping” guys unplug and it isn’t healthy” guys comin’ in here hot should present better arguments, more depth of experience, better methods – or open up their minds a little more and be willing to actually test theories – repeatedly, before they grace us all with their eternal wisdom – like “NEVER get married” are they actually sarging or just typing nonsense to feel better about their predetermined beliefs, most of which are limiting as fuck “It will definitely limit the reach of RP,… Read more »
@ Mitch “…help mentor the next generation of men.” How long you been reading RP, TRM, sundry manosphere content, Mitch? Years, hasn’t it? I’m doing my best with my own shavers. You and all the other plaintiffs? Where’s your social proof? Stop looking outwards for answers, Mitch. We have one Hank here, that’s enough. This talk is what happens when Atlas shrugs, guys with the answers just stop working for an ungrateful system. I’ll tend to my me, my family and anyone else I see fit out side of it, in that order. You should too. Why don’t you look… Read more »
That’s all a young guy wants to hear, anyway. Why did YOU get married? Why do YOU stay married? And then he can use that information to figure out whats right for HIS life. No need to go round and round all these bullshit, endless, time wasting circles. Well, but I think a lot of the guys *have* shared their values around marriage. Blax shared his long story about why he married. SJF has shared a lot about what he values, why he married, why he values his marriage and so on. Same for Eh. People are sharing their own… Read more »
“Exception doesn’t prove the rule.”
That’s why you fail. Be the exception.
Fleezer
why get married? my wife’s soft skin feels so fucking good against me at night in bed. girls are the best
Lol. Not trolling you, I love all yer posts, I really do. But lots of women have wonderful soft skin, and lots of them will happily cuddle up with you every night if you let them. Why do YOU risk marriage? You an adrenaline junkie?
Nova, you’re just too fucking reasonable. I give up. 😂😂
Eh,
STFU, that rant was just stupid. You embarrass yourself.
why would any sane man marry a 45+ yr old woman…LMAO
How about a guy who has a notch count of 43 who got laid relatively frequently in his 20s and has banged his wife 1000’s of times?
SJF ’s called masculine tribal behavior. If your not in the circle on then inside of the perimeter, sure I’d bet it really emotionally feels like cult-like behavior. And it’s been decided before, there are a couple different tribes operating. Ok, fair enough. I understand boundary policing. That goes on a lot here, and it’s cool. But beware that doesn’t devolve into ideologue territory, because some of it is pretty fucking close. Responding to a reasonable question by projecting your opinion of who they are and where they are in their life, how well they measure up to the prevailing… Read more »
marelius
“The only choice available to us as men is if we are willing to put on the mantle of responsibility and never take it off.
Thoughts and comments welcome.”
That’s why i comment. To get that expressed within me.
J-
I gave my reasons for marrying in a fairly lengthy post upthread. You should figure out your own answer to the marriage question – not worry about mine. If my answer helps you in your decision either for or against, then I’m glad. If not, then i sincerely hope you find the answers you’re looking for.
I’m not sure if that is worse than what Julien did in the recent video – there he at least admitted it was “all truth”. He said exactly what 4 other RSD “instructors” said before him; all of what Rollo Tomassi says is “truthful anger”. “It’s all true, but it’ll make you angry at women and angry at the world, so put it down and listen to my sweet sunshine, think happy thoughts, and your shakras will aligned with positivity.” “Oh, and your $999 deposit will be due directly after the part where we all jump up and down, chant… Read more »
@EhIntellect: “In the meantime time I’ll surround myself with consequential love and blood loyalty. What’ll you have at irrevocable death? Pride? N-count? Anger? Envy?” Respect to you married guys doing it right in this day and age, but when you’re dying, much of your mind shuts down because your body is, well, dying. Death is unpleasant for everyone unless it’s instantaneous, and after it’s over there is no “you” to regret anything at all. The “lonely at death” argument, imo, is the very worst one “trad alphas” tend to use. Many of us would love to have a loyal, devoted… Read more »
It’s not about lonely rather having an consequential impact while I’m here. I choose family and kids route. You chose your route.
Life is to be lived at it’s furthest possible limit. I understand though how you might confuse lonely with lack of consequence/meaning.
Have a good day, Jade.
Novaseeker: Well, people will enforce boundaries. And the way here is to make sure you are worthy be a member of the club, so to speak, so newcomers will be tested when they show up, generally speaking. That can be described as cult-like, but it’s also just a way of policing boundaries, in terms of people deciding whether any particular person is worth investing the time to help. I was going to say that independently before I saw what Novaseeker said. @Mitch, I take it that you don’t hang around masculine men in male only spaces that often. If you… Read more »
@Rollo: thank you.
@kfg: I clumsily attempted to contrast a guru/disciple relationship (seeking answers) with a master/apprentice relationship (seeking skills) or an abbot/novice relationship (seeking transcendent experience).
The latter two seem to have fallen by the wayside. Guru/disciple seems to foster fanaticism which, I say, is quite perpendicular to RP. I’d find listening to the guys’ thought on that interesting.
SJF
That was a very good, intro. Thank you.
@SJB: Among the things I am – physicist, engineer, mechanic, fly tyer, musician, athlete, who has taught all of those skills to some degree or another – is “certified guru,” (hey, it was the 60s. Cut me some slack). But I have no cult, no fanatical following. Why not? Because I don’t want one. Your categories of mentor/student relationships all work from the same basic psychological mechanisms. The guru who builds a fanatical following does so because he wants to. He does so by offering purpose and belonging to those who have none. People aren’t spending a thousand bucks on… Read more »
@ Mitch
Nah, not all women have soft skin.
I dated an Asian girl for a while, and her skin was softer than the silk nighties she wore. It was incredible.. And I didn’t verbalize it, lol.
@ Mitch Thanks for bringing up some of this in-group/ Out-group behavior. Re: groups, tribes, cults, all have their particular energy, and we all know that humans are sliding in and out of groups all the time. At least the healthy individuals do. The key is to navigate and be gaining and giving within the group. And the healthiest groups have the most functional boundaries, the ones that work for them. I’m sure SJF can make a connection to pendulums a la transurfing here. The idea helps me understand the world and my decisions a lot better. It’s also helped… Read more »
@ Blaximus
“ And I didn’t verbalize it, lol.”
Ha, yes, better to non-verbally appreciate such things. Message comes across a bit clearer.
A mentor can’t help hank……………
The only thing that can help hank rright now is himself………………….
Not sure if that’s the right place for this, but my head is pulsing and I need to echo it somewhere. My wife is my high school sweetheart, the first girlfriend. I was a shy nerd in baggy trousers and she was a low self esteem plane Jane, mid range SMV. She chased me in our social circle and we started dating. Both virgin teenagers in a very BP relationship. Loads of cuddling in front of tv. Some sex. A cat. Traveling around and planning life together. Soul mates. She’s al-anon (dad alcoholic) and a workaholic. Her father doesn’t drink… Read more »
A mentor can’t help hank…………… The only thing that can help hank rright now is himself…………………. First thing is a mentor is not likely to have Hank hang around him. (with his current attitude. He has to “empty his cup” and then be able to receive more. Second, Hank’s not having fun. If he thinks he is, he’s faking it. He’s tired, really tired. Third, the reason to get a mentor is because they are fun to hang around. And it’s funner to learn the process of Mastery via a mentor. As long as he doesn’t steal the mentors energy… Read more »
Hi stumbler.
You’re in the right place.
Is there contempt between you and the wife? Lack of desire only? Both?
Have you read TRM reconstruction series?
Start posting some of your interactions in the Field Reports Tab above and they’ll be lots of help available. Specifics help.
@kfg: On one hand I agree the guru chooses (a la Dune albeit fictional); on the other hand there’s the incessant hunger of the disciple to be answer-filled without effort.
That last bit is what I see the young guys doing. Don’t think they ever heard of TANSTAAFL.
@Sentient – yes, exactly. That’s where the core of the communication gap re marriage comes from. The kind of things you’re trying to communicate about marriage – it’s not a list of pros and cons, it’s not on a spreadsheet and is (very) difficult to communicate with words. That’s why you have so many guys who understand it – YaReally was the torchbearer, but there are many many others like him and many of them come to TRM. And it would be good to have something to tell them. It may not be a spoon-fed explanation of why marriage is… Read more »
“I guess it’s the old question of whether someone is justified in giving up.”
I didn’t read that fully until now. What do you mean “giving up?”
@SJF Never met a mentor who would take on someone who hasn’t already started………. or doesn’t have the will 2. Ran into a 9 figure guy I’ve seen off and on at x place and he said he saw a lot in me. Asked me how I was doing and I was like broke as fuck right now. Told him my idea about something and he brought up finding a mentor ….. dude has daughters (use to babysit them) no sons basically thinks of me as his godson . I told him I’d find him when I start . Don’t… Read more »
SJF That was a very good, intro. Thank you. Mitch, Any chance you read Jack Donovan’s The Way of Men? If you are an adult Church going man (which is cool and probably fun and makes you feel integrated into a group, I’m not down on that) you probably are aware of the lectures to be a Good Man. The Way of Men is about how men are hardwired to have tactical virtues: Strength, Courage, Mastery and Honor (among men). It describes what would be how to be good at Being a Man rather than merely be a good man.… Read more »
@stumbler, Mistake no.1, you’re not becoming a better man just to get laid. Nearly everyone comes to TRP just for that, but that’s not it. You’ve got a family to take care of and your son will follow your example. You might end up behaving “hypergamous” and cheating yourself – you’d never digest it if it happened to you. You will destroy lives by doing that. You’re still very blue pill…and very much in the anger phase – so get this straight. TRP is not for the end goal of getting laid although it’s focus is nearly all on sexual… Read more »
@Mersonia Color me ignorant of how to go about being a non-starter…. But you have to go easy on the Mentor, as you self recognized Mersonia. For the fifth time I’ve linked this adaptation of Julien Blanc’s notes attached to his videos in Shift (because new guys might show up any time.): (SJF January 20, 2016 at 10:42 am) in this link: https://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/comment-page-3/#comment-136711 Besides getting a mentor, I’ve also been very successful in developing a patent able method of converting online virtual guys with avatars into in real life actual buddies. And forming that cadre takes ingenuity and methods of… Read more »
To the short financial convo earlier, The Fed released info report that credit card debt is the highest ever, surpassing a trillion dollars.
Buckle up.
Hey, where are we going, and why are we in this basket?
Blax,
My wife has skin like that. Yum. I’ve probably verbalized it a time or two though. Ooops?
Just Beers,
Thanks for the insight. Ingroup/outgroup stuff is normal in groups. Like SJF said, maybe I wasn’t recognizing the shit testing (tho I sort of was..), and if that’s all it is, that’s totally cool. I have super-sharp antenna for Totalist group dynamics and they really do make me itch.
sjf: welcome to the cult, of Awareness, knowing what is going on and having your wife fuck you with desire. You are quite the salesman – that I can actually read a sentence with the word cult in it and not break out in hives. Being fucked with desire is pretty tasty bait. Lol. Which, btw, is definitely on the upswing with my wife. In general lately she has been craving my attention, and last night she was really craving my dick, which I benevolently shared. She’s post-ovulation, but still. haha. I have read Donovan’s book The Way of Men,… Read more »
“To the short financial convo earlier, did I mention I just spent $250,000 cash and coins on my son and daughter’s state college education?” And would you believe me if I told you I don’t have one-itis for my wife? Would you believe me if I told you I don’t have ego investments in why I stay with her? Would you believe me if I like her and find her attractive? Would you believe me if I let her spend a lot of money to make me cash poor and took on some debt this past year in order to… Read more »
was excited to read his second book, (and then when I read it, he lost me completely)
” . . . he’s about creating an amoral masculine culture.”
He is about creating an extremely moral culture, but those morals are very definitely not Catholic.
Mitch,
I genuinely admit that sounds like a cool church.
Congrats on having that experience. I had cool experiences with having guys like that monsignor (even if I can’t recall what the fuck a monsignor is, other than better than the rest) in my religious upbringing. My college was incredibly secular, but Catholic. The spirituality was infectious. But it was manifested by quality and excellence.
Yes, I’ve read it all, thank you. I think contempt is building in me. I don’t find her hot, merely bangable (her al-anon insecurities don’t help). She can sense that and her low self esteem kicks in. She’s started working out and thinks she follows a better diet. I don’t think she’s consistent and I don’t know much about how to build the right diet plan for her (for example, levels of what should she check?). She has really bad days with her condition that make her belly look like a balloon after even a glass of water. Hormones and… Read more »
Stumbler, my ex is a psychically fractured al-anon adherent.
We have a young boy as well.
It has not been easy.
stumbler
Hang in their write out solutions
Act out the solution and write out a plan.
kfg He is about creating an extremely moral culture, but those morals are very definitely not Catholic. In what sense would you say he’s creating a moral culture? From Dictionary.com adjective 1. of, relating to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes. 2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work. 3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations. 4. capable of conforming to the rules of right… Read more »
sjf
I think monsignor is like the consolation prize for many years of service and not making bishop or cardinal.
@Mitch:
All but 6. Take out “chaste” and probably 6 as well.
kfg. I gotcha. Yep, definitely not catholic.
The most accessible texts on the moral system would be the Iliad and Odyssey. Donovan leans more to the Germanic and Keltic traditions, but the basic code of the Archaic Greeks was of the same family.
@ question for guys over 35: I see exactly what the manosphere/TRP would predict in my surrounding: 1, Roughly 80 percent are either divorced OR sexless and/or miserable. 2. Very few, below 20 percent, are players/accomplished singles w. access to hot pussy 3. One group that is almost never talked about, approx. 10 percent: Officially in a LTR, but behaves like successful singles/players, keeping out of regular society, in a sense “checking out” of charity, normie-activities, politics, sportsball-crap etc. etc. They do their own thing (a bit MGTOW-like), but “come out of hiding” to grab women or money. Lobster-lurker-game? 😁… Read more »
There is, however, a lot of support and emphasis on men growing in faith and in their love of the Lord.
The Catholic error (most religions actually). “Love the Lord” is the highest ideal.
There is a step beyond that. Become one with the “Lord”.
Hardly a mention of that except of the sort “Jesus did it” or was it. But he was perfect and you are not good enough.
In any case “Becoming one with the Lord” is built into our brains.
[[[Couples have stayed together through a lot of difficulties in the past – and that’s one thing an animal just isn’t capable of doing without evolving past pleasure addictions. Strength is an ideal that is essentially lost in modern relationships that are addicted to instant gratification.]]] Not that I do not like the idea … but isn’t strength just power? Most men don’t have problems with equity-and rule-based solutions. Women have, though. The evovled thing is hypergamy (countered by civilization aka regulated male strength aka regulated application of force). Religion, values, being a responsible/mature man/woman/hedgehog…either you force women to behave… Read more »
@Stumbler – Hi. I was where you are about 10 months ago. From your post, it seems as if you are on the verge of shifting your focus from others (wife/kids) to yourself, but you’re not quite there. It might be helpful to understand that no one here is out to help you save your marriage, nor should that be your primary goal. What you must do for yourself, and what we will help you with here, is to save yourself, however you decide you must. If in saving yourself you lose your marriage, then so be it. If, as… Read more »
take the No More Mr Nice Guy strategy to heart
Stumbler/marelius
I’m all ears; it might makes sense to move the discussion to either Field Reports or the latest blog post since this one will get less viewers now
excellent comment marelius
“These events were set in motion years ago by your hand”
@447 – OMG here. The only question I see is lobster-lurker-game? To me, option 3 is not anything new. Its already been described as Gamma behavior. Do others agree, or am I a bit off on the Gamma profile?
The group I’m in, which you didn’t mention, is married, monogamous, and getting laid like tile because:
a) we have figured out how intersexual dynamics work
b) are putting in the effort to be a positive, masculine man who leads by action
c) and in turn, we have learned how to generate real desire in our wives
Wtf is going on Rollo???
“I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate.”
What is this blue pill shit?
How am I supposed to get involved with a virgin? With a ring and a marriage proposal???
Plate theory is Bible. It has no exceptions.
Always spin plates.
Monogamy is a byproduct not a goal.
I’m gonna follow Dr. Zippers advice and move my response and dialog with stumbler to FR. I will repost my comment from February 13, 2018 at 5:52 am.
Stumbler
Sri & Marelius are both correct, I really have nothing to add other than AWALT.
Meaning that ACOA or Alanon whichever women have codependent tendencies and will suck you into their frame via this distorted view and treatment of you by her. This need that you have to change things stems from this I think.
First only work on self realignment and balance, remember to be kind not “nice” the rest of the family will follow your lead , in a sense they will self correct.
Don’t try to fix them, this is that codependent reaction.
@Stumbler One little thing jumped out at me as a warning signal: you say you’re not sleeping. Whatever your emotional distress or the urgency to stay up all night devouring TRM and other info as a potential lifeline, you must take good care of yourself — in fact improve yourself — however it all plays out. Lack of proper sleep will only aggravate your anger, erode your health and compromise your job performance. You also lose that sense of a fresh start in the morning and a fresh idea of what to do because your mind can work on these… Read more »
@Blaximus And YES!!!!!!! My day has been officially MADE!!!!!!! GOOD TO SEE YOU HABD!!!!!!!!!!!!! slow day at the office, huh?… you really need to get out more…lol great stories/insight btw… — @Sentient HABD Thought the FI rubbed you out. And not in a good way. Spot On as always…. not rubbed out, but its getting in some heavy body shots…lol… working on resolving some socially conditioned self-limiting beliefs (other than girls…lol)… and spending time with my kids… — @Chump No More @Sentient “Thought the FI rubbed you out. And not in a good way. Spot On as always….” A fully… Read more »
@447 40+ here Never married/divorced, longest monog LTR 2-3 yrs, but have a plate I’ve spun for over 10. Not a big player, per se; had many hot women and snag one every few weeks but their attitudes in my city are a complete turn off. It’s peak female entitlement culture in my town, and the guys who do keep the hotties here seem to do nothing but defer, simp and placate – with the exception of guys with older party girls who create loads of drama and are kept in check with lots of AMOG and macho shit that… Read more »
@stumbler Do not misdirect your contempt. It’s towards yourself, not your wife. You’re unhappy about your situ and she just happens to be in the middle of it. Just like your son. Don’t put it on any of them. Burden of performance is on you. Mind you, if your contempt is misdirected/leaks out repeatedly, her ultra-sensitive cat brain picks up on this and she’s going through this right now: Chinese water torture is a process in which water is slowly dripped onto a person’s forehead, allegedly making the restrained victim insane. Try to spot it in real time and shut… Read more »
@Jade Married 28 years, 2 adult kids, RP for under a year. I arrived at this point blindly as a BP Beta. I would never have chosen this path willingly, but here I am. Now that I have created two other beings that share this world with you and me, I feel that the nuclear family unit (marriage) is the best way to meet my obligation to support those beings throughout their entire lives. I know this is “old books” thinking, but just because I have realized that others (women) don’t abide by the “old” rules any longer doesn’t mean… Read more »
Is marriage (or a long long LTR) worth it? Two views … Mark Simone, radio’s ultimate Man About Town, was touting the single life: “I can watch whatever I want, go wherever I want. I can come home, open the door and know there’s peace and quiet inside. I don’t have to hear about something being broken or get yelled at for something I did wrong.” Simone’s married suburban beta sidekick says, “But you have no one to share things with.” “Ohhhhhh, you can find LOTS of people to ‘share’ things with, hehhehheh.” On the other hand, coincidental with this… Read more »
I fell so far behind in the thread, that I’ll just have to catch up later. There were a lot of great insights, but I wanted to 100% cosign M Simon’s insight that appeared in different iterations in the thread. This was the most concise example: M Simon February 10, 2018 at 7:09 pm RE: Sentient February 10, 2018 at 6:08 pm If she doesn’t have One-itis for you it likely will not work long term. Alpha is not enough. You also have to get lucky. And one way to get lucky is just to run through a lot of… Read more »
@ O.B.I.T. I have an addition to mark’s ideal, it’s possible to come home while married ( with or without kids ) to a peaceful place. It’s possible to do what you want, go where you want, and all that jazz. Frame, not unpredictable chaos. I’ve always found the idea that a man has to be ” yelled at ” by his wife at home, very strange yet widely accepted. I’ll pass. Home is where I ( and all of my family ) escape the crazy outside of the threshold. My grandmother didn’t yell at my grandfather, my mother didn’t… Read more »
@Marelius “Creating another being, seemingly from nothing, changes you profoundly. I know that I cannot explain it. In fact, I doubt that anyone can explain it sufficiently for those of you who have not experienced it to really grasp it. If you haven’t created another being, you just cannot fathom how that will change you. I don’t mean to be condescending, just telling you how I see it.” I get it, and have seen my friends and family transform after becoming parents. “I know this is “old books” thinking, but just because I have realized that others (women) don’t abide… Read more »