Divorce Incorporated

What I’m going to get into today is going to be kind of dark. I’m doing this not to exacerbate any guy’s negative feelings, but to shed some light on the reality of how divorce operates in the United States as well as many other western societies. A lot of guys tend to focus on the logistics, the laws, the process of how a divorce proceeds. Much of what I see coming from Men’s Rights advocates about divorce centers on the need for legal and institutional reform of the process in their misguided hopes of creating a more ‘equal’ state between men and women. From what I understand, MRA’s primary hope (for most every issue they address) is that this reform can come from a top-down approach – changing the system to be more fair – rather than confronting the fact that these laws, divorce and others, are manifestations of an endemic social dynamic that is based on a fundamentally unfair, unequal interrelation between the sexes.

What I’m going to focus on here is dissecting this process, but doing so from a Red Pill aware perspective. While it may be the purview of the MRM that this process is fundamentally corrupt and in need of reform (I agree), what they willingly ignore is the root level inequalities that are part of men and women’s evolved differences that are the source of this process. This isn’t meant to be some take-down of the MRM; I find their causes worthy enough, but I believe their approach to solving them to be fundamentally flawed due to a refusal to accept the core, evolved differences in men and women and a stubborn refusal to reject the ideals of egalitarian equalism that the feminism they claim to hate is ostensibly founded on.

This system is designed to create conflict, but that conflict is rooted in the presumption that men are always at fault in it. This is why there can never be an equalist solution to correcting the endemic problems of modern divorce procedures.

At present I have a personal friend I’m counseling who is in the opening phases of this process. He and his soon to be Ex are also in ‘marriage therapy’. First thing I ask, “is it a man or woman therapist?” He says woman. I say, you’re fucked; start planning your exit now.

He agrees, but still has that Blue Pill hope he’s not wasting his money (she’s a SAHM) and they’ll be able to negotiate some mutually amicable feigning of her desire for him. When we invest ourselves in something we’ve accepted is supposed to be effective we’ll hold on to hope that it will because there’s a part of us (especially in idealistic men) that doesn’t like to think we are able to be conned. This is a very well studied psych phenomenon. We convince ourselves that we ‘got something out of’ an experience regardless of it being a provably bad investment. We like to believe that in all labor there is profit, but reality shows us, quite often, that this simply isn’t true.

I gave him a list of things to keep in his head as he was going to these counseling sessions, but I also told him the truth that marriage counseling is almost always ‘last stop before toll’ and that he needs to be careful now because his wife will eagerly use this therapist’s testimony to destroy his character at a later date. That’s the profit model for therapists in divorce proceedings. They’re getting paid when you’re coming and going.

I told him she will turn into someone he never thought she could become and most of it will be at the prodding of their therapist and her attorney (who he’ll also be paying). It’s in all of their best interests that they create a monster of him. The male anger bias I write about here will be the primary basis for his character assassination.

Anything even remotely, positively masculine or Alpha is still a ‘man being a man’ and this can always be reinterpreted as potentially aggressive or violent. In a feminine-primary social order where feminized men and women are taught that men are inherently evil and prone to anger and violence (the “culture” of masculinity) there’s an army of women and White Knight sympathizing men who want nothing more than to stick it to the ‘man’ symbolically. And when they draw a paycheck from doing so they’re all the more eager. Add to this that they feel a sense of moral justification in “making the world a better place” by burning him in an effigy of all men and you get to where we are now. We presently live in a social order that presumes any masculinity is “toxic” or “hyper” masculinity. So disassociated from anything positive has society become with regard to conventional masculinity that just the term is now masculinity is a negative connotation.

Needless to say this will be the starting point from which a soon-to-be-divorced man will have his undoing begin. So prevalent is the presumption of abuse on a man’s part that even the most saintly father can be remade into a secret monster. It’s just ‘how guys are’ and this presumption also serves as a point of justification for women, and Blue Pill male sympathizers, to feel okay about pillorying him.

Yes, I understand that there is at least a reportedly higher incidence of men being the abuser in domestic cases, but we also have to understand that the definition of “abuse” has been rendered so ambiguous that most men don’t realize virtually anything they do in a domestic confrontation can fit the definition of “abuse”. Just raising one’s voice is enough to qualify as psychological abuse. Denying a woman access to money also fits a new definition of abuse. I once counseled a guy who had been taken to jail for snatching the car keys away from his drunk wife so as to prevent her from driving drunk. She called the police and, as you likely know, the man is always the party removed from the home by police. Snatching the keys was enough to qualify his removal. 5 months later he’s living with his parents (at 43) and paying rent on a home and car payments on a car only his now ex is allowed to occupy and drive.

I know how my friend’s story is going to end. I’m doing what I can to give him fair warning – it’d be better for him to completely pull up stakes and remove himself from the situation than stick around and ‘try to make it work’ because the longer he lingers the more ammunition she and the therapist potentially get. I think this is also the profit model; keep the Blue Pill chump husband around the house for as long as it takes to build him up as a stereotypical ‘man’ and then escalate the most marginal conflict as a ‘typical’ domestic violence incident and he’s gone. If you watch the above documentary on the divorce industry you’ll see how many lucrative profit opportunities there are at every stage of divorce; and there is no incentive to dissuade divorce profiteers from doing anything different. And, as I stated earlier, there are many ready-made social and moral conventions available to help them justify their profits.

Old Books and New Books

‘No one cares how mean your ex was, how unfair she was to you and so on … at the end of the day, the system can’t right wrongs, they only process your case’

The above and following  quote was from an article in the National Post, Family court advice for men, from one who’s made it through;

I’ve had hundreds and hundreds of notes; on a gender breakdown, probably 80 percent are from men, 20 percent from women.

I’ve heard from family court lawyers, some of whom are angry at my suggestions that fathers get the tough end of the stick in child custody cases (though the actual evidence is reasonably clear that they do), some of whom say “the whole system is B.S … one of the first things out of my mouth when I see someone is, ‘What’s your budget and how much does he/she dislike you?’” I’ve heard from judges and former judges and psychologists and counsellors.

Without exception, they agree that the system is beyond broken.

What we have, fundamentally, in the state of modern divorce is a conflict between old books social contracts serving as the ethical basis of a new books resource transfer from men to women (Thomas Ball even described it as such). Really this conflict is at the root of much of what Red Pill awareness (from the social perspective of intersexual dynamics) describes, but in this instance there’s an entire social complex that influences policy and profit. Judges, attorneys, psychologists and counselors all make a very good living from this fundamental conflict; and if you watch the Divorce Incorporated documentary I linked you’ll see that there’s no incentive to ever change that profitable conflict at any stage.

However, all of the people involved in even a typical western divorce are all subject to the belief sets that the Feminine Imperative has predisposed them to about men and women. We presume a default state of victimhood is to be applied to a woman and the benefit of that victimhood doubt runs deep. We see it evolve into the kangaroo court systems that govern what we’re told to believe is an endemic ‘rape culture’ on college campuses – up to and beyond denying a man his civil rights.

We’re taught that any slight appearance of abuse towards a woman is an opportunity to teach any man doing so a lesson, but should a man be the victim of the same abuse? Well, he probably had it coming. The Feminine Imperative has (and still is in some senses) prepared women and Blue Pill men to believe that women are untouchable; always to be believed, by default, in their victim status no matter the circumstance.

Now we can expand this presumption to every party involved in a divorce proceeding. We get female therapists whose livelihoods depend on following the victimhood of women and demonization of men (and masculinity) script the Feminine Imperative has laid out for them for most of their lives. We get Blue Pill Alphas eager to prove their authority by punishing any man who might remind them of their asshole fathers or who fits their idea of what the imperative has taught him is a “misogynist”. The imperative plays to the natural ‘protector’ impulse of these men. We get well-conditioned attorneys, counsellors and judges ready to follow that same script by legally enacting the retribution and restitution upon which feminism has always been based.

But underneath all of this we have the fundamental inequalities in ideology between what the old books social contract expects of men while the divorce industry enforces, almost unilaterally male, punishment based on a new books social paradigm to better empower women – presumably to right the past wrongs they believe were endemic in that old books paradigm. What we have today are new books divorce and marital laws based on those old books presumptions of men’s evils, indiscretions and addressing the toll it allegedly took on women. The result is a system that is designed to psychologically, financially and personally ruin any man whose idealism led him to believe that men and women share some mutually recognized concept of love; enough to compel him to a lifetime commitment in modern marriage. It is a system calculated to destroy the same Blue Pill conditioned men who will eagerly stand up to defend their ego-investments in it.

The common refrain to this is always “just don’t get married”, and it is precisely this system’s goal to disincentivize long term commitment between the sexes so that this response is the only logical one. Thus, we get women spending small fortunes to freeze their eggs in the hopes that one day some man will be foolishly idealistic enough to look past all the inherent life-threatening risks marriage and divorce uniquely disposes men to. Thus, we get old books moralists berating men for wanting to prolong their adolescence (never mind women doing so is considered empowerment) by avoiding the dangers of marriage that they’ve been smart enough to understand, or have been a party to in one way or another.

In my next essay I’ll be addressing the misguided opinion of some ‘stand up’ Purple Pill moralists that the Red Pill is “just for guys who are obsessed with sex and make getting laid their life’s mission”. I’ll elaborate on why this is simply a distraction from the much larger meta-scope of Red Pill awareness and intersexual dynamics. However, understanding how the divorce industry is based on the same dynamics the Red Pill has described for a decade and a half is a good illustration of why the Red Pill isn’t just about men basing their lives on getting laid. This system is fundamentally unegalitarian and unequal, and the designed imbalances are entirely founded in Red Pill intersexual principles. This is why the MRM will never be successful in their hopes of a top down institution of social change. The laws and the social imperatives that crush men are symptoms of a deeper problem that requires a bottom up changing of men’s minds about women and themselves.

657 comments

  1. What you are describing is one manifestation of a phenomena seen in almost all areas of human endeavor today. Professions and “institutions” in adversarial and impersonal societies who driven largely by the lure of metrics , monetary profit and self-promotion are almost guaranteed to worsen the problems they were meant to solve. The divorce industry is therefore just one example of what happens when you such motives run wild.

    A post of mine from almost 4 year ago..

    https://dissention.wordpress.com/2013/09/19/professions-usually-worsen-problems-they-were-meant-to-solve/

  2. Had an ex hit me one time when she was drunk. I left that night and slept in my truck. Called my attorney the next day he he counseled me to GTFO. He was currently representing a dentist who was living in an apartment after he was the one arrested after his STBX got drunked up, hit him, and then called the cops on him. He went to jail. I dodged the bullet with mine and got away relatively unscathed. Yep, it happens and men generally pay the price, You will be arrested, no doubt. All it takes is a phone call to 911 and you’re out of there but on a brighter note, one can avoid that sort’ve unpleasantness by not repeating the same bluepill mistake over and over and over again, by getting married, or at least maintaining frame. Everything in the courts is arrayed against you. Tough lesson and a hard pill to swallow.

  3. Been reading and lurking for a while, guess it’s about time I said something. Fairly newly unplugged, married twice and divorced twice, and never again. First one – seven years, two daughters, ex moved halfway across the country with them after the divorce, and only after they became adults did we really develop much of a relationship. Second one – 22 years (which was at least 6 years too long), still paying for that one. But I got off light. I ended up with a negotiated settlement of 7 years alimony. I ran into one gal a few weeks ago who was married about as long, and her ex is going to have to pay alimony for life. I believe a lot of it depends on the state you get your divorce in (hers is NC).

    First one cheated, not once but twice (that I know of), but still ended up with the kids and got to move away with them. Oh, and still got child support for 15 years. Second one – spent me out of house and home (4 bankruptcies, not kidding) and ballooned up to 400 pounds. If that’s how marriage is going to do me, then I want no part of it ever again.

    I’m in my mid 50s now, living in a new state and trying to build my life into something resembling what I really want it to look like. And because of my experiences, I’m actually afraid to date. And now that I’ve taken the Red Pill, I’m even more afraid of it. Women who would actually be interested in an average 50-something guy will be post-Wall, probably well post-Wall, and looking for that long-term commitment (I actually had one gal I dated a couple of years ago outright tell me that she didn’t want to date or have a relationship, she just wanted to be married – NEXT!). Eventually I’ll get horny enough and start dating again, but I’m in no hurry. My priority is to build the life I want for me, then think about having someone to share it with (if I can find anyone who actually deserves to share it).

  4. Every word in this post is fact. Men considering divorce and men whom divorce is happening to need to step back and see the larger picture. You are playing a game of chess but you haven’t a queen or bishop. MUCH planning and emotional stability is required to achieve even a semblance of parity.
    It can be done. Men can play the game. It takes a stoic resolve. Keep your red pill close to your chest. It is possible for a woman to get tripped up in her own solipsism and appear foolish in court. The more determined man can use a woman’s nature to expose her but his own conduct must be impeccable and his steps must be planned and executed with near perfection.
    You cannot rely solely on the advice of your attorney. I had a good attorney but was only able to successfully litigate my divorce AND the subsequent modification lawsuit she filed by being my own advocate. You have to all at once learn to be the Buddha in her presence, Machiavelli behind the scenes while playing Mr. Rodgers on the stand.

    I’m home tonight with my 3 sons. It can be done.

  5. Here’s a question. There are a number of men for whom a domestic violence accusation (not sure if just an arrest is enough, but definitely a conviction) would get them fired and make them essentially unemployable. They would have to start over in a new field with a dramatic cut in salary. In that case, it is very much against the woman’s economic interests to make any such false accusation. How many women are smart enough to realize that? Or do their angry feelz trump their economic sense?

  6. @Rollo Tomassi – Another excellent post. I touched on the idea of “Entitled Victimhood” in a post I made (you can see it here: https://alphajedi.com/2016/07/12/entitiled-victimhood/). I think an excerpt from that post that fits with you points above is:

    “From this fem-centric perspective we’ve done men and women a great disservice: Men are put into a catch 22 scenario where they are supposed to be “real men” yet are socially crucified for acting in a traditionally male way, while women are treated like infallible children that are not held accountable for their choices. And this is where we see the prevalence of a false sense of Entitled Victimhood.

    Since all things feminine are to be embraced and not questioned, the flood gates have been opened for women to have “buyer remorse” and be socially compensated for them not taking responsibility for their decisions. The prime examples are divorce and rape allegations, where in one area a woman can regret her decision to make a “lifetime” commitment and can exit the scenario, while the social compensation is a legal system heavily stacked in her favor to claim alimony, child custody, and legal rights to property, assets, ect, whether or not she had any role in acquiring those. One the more extreme end, a guy and girl can both get drunk and have a night drunken sex. The next morning, both of them may regret having done it, but the girl has the social compensation of being able to file a rape allegation against the guy for “taking advantage” of the situation, regardless if she, in that moment, wanted to have sex just as much or more than the guy.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that there are not cases where guys are abusive in marriage and the woman wants out, or a guy forces himself upon a girl after having a drink or two. These things do happen and it is unfortunate. I am also not saying that there is a fem-conspiracy that all women are in on. But the current social narrative taught to women is that “men are out to get you, it’s not your fault, you are covered,” almost like a social insurance policy.”

  7. In your book you mention that it seems to others like you’re running out of topics.

    One thing you haven’t addressed but I’d like to see one day:
    the toxicity displayed in the intersexual relationships you describe also apply to mother/son relationships in single parent households.

    Even moreso, since the son is dependent, resourceless, naive, powerless — and idealistic beyond reason due to the cultural supersaturation of the Feminine Imperative.

    Many of your posts have helped me broach a broad understanding of what happened to me in my childhood. You describe toxic wives and girlfriends, but all of these principles apply to abusive mothers as well:
    Solipsism
    Victimization
    Lack of moral compass
    The undue favor of the law
    Opportunism (how many kids are ignored because their mom is all-in on the precocious older brother or sister?)

    One of the purest and most vicious forms that the Feminine Imperative takes is maternal abuse. Mothers are fully unaccountable for their actions in the eyes of the culture and the law. Mothers are unaccountable to themselves, and without any checks they will spin lies so dense that the reality, the truth of a situation, is lost.

    Since I was 12 my mother would drunkenly instigate arguments, then call the cops on me when I raised my voice to defend myself. She would tell the cops she was afraid I was going to get violent, when she’s the one who had spent hours throwing shoes and lamps at me before placing the call. I was defenseless. There was nothing I could do to keep from being sent to juvenile detention. Nothing I could do to save myself from the humiliation of cop cars coming for me during lunch breaks in 9th grade because she had ‘had it.’

    It is very lonely to be without a family, but through RM I know it’s better go at it alone if a man needs to build himself up, in isolation, far away from poisonous personalities. I owe a great credit to Rational Male in helping me see what had happened to me, because maternal abuse is a blind spot due to the pervasiveness of the Feminine Imperative, and the blind celebration of single motherhood.

    I do not speak to my mother despite her having Stage 4 cancer. She has again played the victim throughout, and professes ignorance as to why I’m a ‘cold’ and ‘angry’ son who refuses to see her. I feel no responsibility to care about the demise of a woman who has been telling me I should die since I was 7. At no point has she offered to come clean or come honest, even in the face of an early grave. So powerful is the drive towards solipsism and victimization, and maintaining that sinless, faultless front,
    that she sustains those lies long after they really matter.

  8. My quickly maturing daughter would in the recent past be deemed eminently marriage-able. But I’ve warned her, and she seems to accept, that it may well not happen for her. At best it she could get a Swedish style temporary liaison and raise a kid or two in a shared parenting scenario for a period of years. Along with the death of dating is coming the death of marriage for all except the UMC and old school landed gentry.

    She will also have to absorb my current evangel that if she wants any parenting plan to work she will have to be aware of and work through her frustrations at how blue pilled her POSSLQ will undoubtedly act, for the sake of any kids she wants to have. This message is going down better than I’d expected as she has seen a bunch of her classmates’ families blow up and had to confront the detritus of their parents’ fuckups, and she would not want to be the cause of that in her own family. But who knows for sure? It may not be her call anyway.

  9. The $8.99 I spent for the kindle version of Positive Masculinity is possibly the best money I have ever spent. This book is excellent, really hits home and articulately concisely spells out many of the neuances of this reality. Thank you Rollo. I will be passing it along to everyone in my circle.

    I think it is important for all of us to do the difficult thing, the thing we most fear, about sharing this knowledge and that is to share it with those whom we fear may try to persecute us for it. I’m not advocating shoving it down anyone’s throat, but seizing opportunities to share at least portions that naysayers may already understand or agree with. Those who,we are most reluctant to share the red pill with are generally the ones who need it most. Unapologetically but without being overbrering present it. Most of us in the manosphere feel comfortable expressing our thoughts to those who are already awake. It’s human nature to preach to the choir like a coping mechanism to procrastinate what we really want and know we should be doing; spread the “gospel”. One tactic I have used is sending links of specific essays from this blog and other blogs to friends and associates struggling with issues that those specific essays address. I have sometimes done this from a phantom email address so they wouldn’t know it was me to avoid the risk of them white knight attacking me and missing their opportunity to embrace the message. The unknown messenger cannot be attacked. By removing myself and remaining anonymous the recipient has no avenue to exercise his defensiveness and is somewhat effectively guided to focus on his issue. In some cases this has worked remarkably well as some have begun to make changes. One even began to share thoughts with me not knowing I was the messenger which opened a door to “mentoring” him. We should use any and every tactic available to get the word out to as many blue pill poisioned men as possible in the shortest amount of time possible. If each of us apply ourselves in sensitive effective ways so as to spread the understanding in a grass roots way our message will become extremely powerful and effective. I believe I t will become unstoppable. What I mean by sensitive is not touchy feely, but contentious, and alert to how the meaasage will best be accepted. Even the most tentative propensity to accept these truths provides us with the opportunity to effectively share them. Thanks again Rollo for all your hard work and your diligent uncompromising relentless meticulous tenaciousness.

  10. “It’s human nature to preach to the choir like a coping mechanism to procrastinate what we really want and know we should be doing”

    good insight

  11. First thing I ask, “is it a man or woman therapist?” He says woman. I say, you’re fucked; start planning your exit now.

    I dunno. If one had to choose a therapist blindly, then I’d say you’re completely right. But the choice usually isn’t blind. One can make an initial visit. One can ask around. One can ask the therapist who’s advice or style they admire. One can ask if they’re familiar with with any blue-bill aware names (e.g., Jordan Peterson, Warren Ferrell, Helen Smith).

    I say this because even better than a male therapist is a red-pilled female therapist. Yes, they’re about as easy to find as unicorns, but they do exist. And no one can see through a female’s bullshit quite as well as another female. Such a therapist might also have better success at getting through to your male friend. It’s possible she doesn’t trigger your friend’s ego or need to defend himself when confronted in his beliefs by another male (while his wife is present).

  12. @AD

    “What you are describing is one manifestation of a phenomena seen in almost all areas of human endeavor today. Professions and “institutions” in adversarial and impersonal societies who driven largely by the lure of metrics , monetary profit and self-promotion are almost guaranteed to worsen the problems they were meant to solve. The divorce industry is therefore just one example of what happens when you such motives run wild.”

    This concept is the basis of Vadim Zeland’s Reality Transurfing book in which tactics are employed by an individual in a bottoms up approach to not letting “institutions” steal your excess free energy, metrics, money because they are decidedly self promoting. It is the energy stealing of the Matrix all over again.

    Zeland develops the thoughts you describe in an abstract concept that he labels in glossary terms as a Pendulum that gains power. The way to not have your power stolen is to not subscribe to the Pendulums.

    The greatest Pendulum of all in Red Pill Awareness is the Pendulum of the Feminine Imperative and it’s action of swaying feminists and blue pill adherents.

    This is how he describes the concept of these institutions:

    Pendulum (glossary definition):

    Thought energy is material and does not totally disappear without trace. When a group of people begin to think in a similar way their “thought waves” accumulate in layers and invisible but real energy-information structures – pendulums are created in the greater ocean of energy. The structures begin to evolve independently until they reach a stage at which they are able to subject people to their own laws. When a person comes under the influence of a destructive pendulum they lose their freedom and are forced to become a small cog in a large machine.
    The more people – adherents – feed the pendulum with their energy, the more forceful its “sway”. Every pendulum has its characteristic oscillation frequency. For example, a swing will gain height only if you apply effort to pushing it with a certain frequency. This is what is meant by the resonant frequency. If the number of a pendulum’s adherents decreases its sway becomes weaker. If the number of adherents declines to zero the pendulum dies and ceases to exist as a separate entity.

    In order to pump energy from people a pendulum hooks into their emotions and reactions: indignation, dissatisfaction, hate, irritation, anxiety, worry, depression, confusion, despair, fear, pity, attachment, admiration, tenderness, idealization, adulation, delight, disappointment, pride, arrogance, contempt, aversion, insult, duty, guilt etc.

    The greatest threat of the pendulum’s suppressive influence is that it leads its victim away from life lines in which that person would have been truly happy. It is essential to free oneself from imposed goals after which one battles straying ever further from one’s own true path in life.
    In essence the pendulum is an “egregore” and yet it is much more than this. The notion of the “egregore” does not reflect the entire range of subtle interaction between the individual and the energy-information structures referred to here as pendulums.

    And Egregore is: “an occult concept representing a “thoughtform” or “collective group mind”, an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people.”

    The way to break out of these institutions and pendulums is most definitely Awareness of their Intent. And then actionable advice on how to break out of their influence by not letting them influence you. This is the basis of Red Pill Awareness and Game as needed to break out of the energy stealing methods of Pendulums. Not subscribing to the Pendulums, bottoms up approach with enlightened self interests and tactics to not let these pendulums invade your mind and block the ability for an individual man to resolve to have and to act. Awareness first, then the resolve to pursue your purpose and mission via Action. Sure that’s and abstract concept. Fill in the blanks for yourself.

    As a masculine man: “indignation, dissatisfaction, hate, irritation, anxiety, worry, depression, confusion, despair, fear, pity, attachment, admiration, tenderness, idealization, adulation, delight, disappointment, pride, arrogance, contempt, aversion, insult, duty, guilt etc.” will get you nowhere and steal your energy. Don’t allow those emotions in your game plan.

  13. I was lucky in my own divorce in that the soon to be ex-wife disliked attorneys even more than I did. So there wasn’t a whole lot of using them beyond a few consultations. Also that there were fortunately no children involved. But the process was still a grind. Yes I was lucky; there were several men I knew who got mulched under, I have some incredible stories there.

    Also they may not be common but red-pilled female counselors do exist. I let my ex pick; she picked a woman of course, but this particular woman took me aside after a few sessions to let me know she saw right through the ex and it was her opinion that I was wasting my money and I should bail. That was refreshing, a counselor who doesn’t put her purse first. So that wasn’t much of a money sink after all.

    Every man who’s been divorced or is on his way there has to remember this: it’s extremely rare for a woman to apologize for what she put her husband through. It’s possible she might miss her husband and want back in, but there’s often still no apology. She might come close to one, but still come up short. On the other hand, my mother has apologized to my father a couple of times that I know about and they’re still married so she respects him enough to come across when she has to. I think there is something to that vs the intransigent and rebellious wife who just won’t bring herself to do it.

  14. I think it’s worse over there than it is over here.

    But there’s the simple issue of who is going to pay for all these used up women.

    The state doesn’t want to (or can’t) so the money has to be extracted from men.

    There’s also the political issue of making promises you can’t afford to keep to people who can’t afford to/don’t want to pay.

    They can’t just call it a ‘useless woman tax’ and take it out of payroll so they invent penalties and ‘fault’ in behaviour to ‘justify’ asset stripping the men.

    Just like a parking fine.. you could have parked there anyway if you had a permit but YOU WERE BAD not to get one so you must PAY.

    It’s all about the money.

  15. Any social system is only as strong as the men who are willing to risk their lives to defend it, women being apt to drop their guns and surrender at the first sign of real danger. You heard it here first: White men will convert to Islam and demand Islamic divorce, where the ex-wife is put out of the family home with the clothes on her back. A few judges and lawyers will be beheaded on camera, the rest will quickly fall into line, and anyone who objects will be arrested for “Islamophobia”.

    White conversion to Islam solves the whole divorce problem in one fell swoop, though it causes other problems you can read about here:
    https://blog.jim.com/war/the-solution-we-do-not-want/

  16. When I first started looking around in the then-nescient manosphere for answers about ten years ago, my thinking was that I have to figure out a way to date better quality women so that I might find a wife among them in Silicon Valley. I eventually got quite a bit better with women, but came to the conclusion that women of marriageable age don’t want to get married, and the only women who want to get married were in their early thirties. There’s really no point, especially since I had seen so many guys who had busted their ass to build something in life get absolutely destroyed in family court. I was making real money managing a group of engineers in Silicon Valley and saw no reason to take the risk with a thirtysomething woman that I might get one child out of.

    I eventually realized that I needed to leave. Now I have a location-independent income and live in provincial Russia. Russian woman are not fundamentally different than their western sisters (AWALT), but at least the incentives here are different. A woman who isn’t married by about 27 or so is done. The single best thing a woman here can do to improve her life is to catch a worthy man, and so the women here actually behave like women and not blue-haired wildebeests riding the carousel.

    I have a good Russian friend with one daughter. He found out that his wife was cheating, and moved out immediately and divorced her. Of course, the court ordered child support. His “white” (official) salary is only a tiny fraction of his total salary. The other part, called a “black” salary is paid under the table in cash. It’s a scheme for businesses to pay less in payroll taxes, which are around 40% in Russia. So, the child support order is for something only slightly more valuable than pocket lint, and isn’t enforced very much. ZFG on his part, he already found another girlfriend hotter and younger (and more of a decent human being) than his ex. He got out of his marriage almost completely unscathed. In the same situation in the USA, he would have been screwed.

    There was an article [1] in the Economist earlier this year about how the Russian parliament essentially decriminalized first-time wife-beating unless it was particularly severe. I’ve never hit a woman, and don’t plan to. If you have to do it, you’ve already lost frame. But having seen the way domestic violence laws are abused in the USA to favor women, I understand the point for such a law.
    [1] https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21715726-it-fits-traditional-values-lawmakers-say-why-russia-about-decriminalise-wife-beating

  17. Saleri,

    I’ve written a piece on how to survive and move on from a feminist mother. Maybe it can be of some use to you:

    https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2017/07/15/how-to-survive-and-move-on-from-a-feminist-single-mother/

    On Rollo’s piece, I entirely agree. The MRM is beyond redemption because so too is the system it hopes to repair. You don’t right an injustice by giving the other side the same unfair advantages. What you need to do is to remove the unfair advantages that now exist. But as Rollo has explained there are too many people profiting from the current system that will not allow it to be rolled back in a million years.

    I mean, let’s posit a situation where there is a concerted move to tear down the system and start again. The amount of “experts” that would be rolled out to defend it in histrionic terms would be endless. Just the number of judges defending it both past and present would be insane. And of course they’d dig up a fair number of genuine spousal abuse cases from very bad men to rub the tar back on men in general.

    No, the only way to move forward is to create an entirely different edifice that women flock to because they are not getting what they want from the present system, (frozen eggs as an example of this). Unfortunately the way the world is going this system might well be Muslim in nature.

    Oh well, girls. You had your big chance at showing us what your empowerment could do.

  18. In my state, it comes down to 4 things:

    Length of marriage
    Standard of living
    Need
    Ability to pay

    Morality does not enter into this equation. She could have been the town whore, it doesn’t matter.

    Costs (so far): 60k plus lawyer bill that I’m still paying on, divorce was final 4 years ago. Total of approx 100k in alimony (3 1/2 years of temporary alimony + 5 years durational).

    I said costs so far because she has engaged another law firm who recently contacted my lawyer. She’s going to file an alimony modification. So I have to shell out another retainer and pay my lawyer to defend me again. She doesn’t have a good case for modification but it still costs me because I have to lawyer up again.

    I project that the next move in a few years will be that she will say she’s “disabled” and come after me again.

    That’s one of the evilest things about the system. Once even one dollar of alimony is granted, it opens a Pandora’s box where she can potentially fuck you through the court system for the rest of your life.

  19. On one hand, you want to starve the Deep State’s money laundering marriage operation by not getting married, but on the other hand, you know that marriage used to be a stable way to raise a family. So I guess we must find a way to raise stable kids outside of marriage. Yeah, I know the courts can still come after men who aren’t married but have kids, so what’s the alternative? As Adam said, how fucked up is it that Islam of all things offers us a solution to crush feminism.

    @Saleri, powerful story. Tell your mother that God knows what she did and she can’t fool him, so she better stop lying before it’s too late.

  20. Also they may not be common but red-pilled female counselors do exist. I let my ex pick; she picked a woman of course, but this particular woman took me aside after a few sessions to let me know she saw right through the ex and it was her opinion that I was wasting my money and I should bail.

    I was going to ask in all seriousness if a man had ever benefited from marriage counseling, as the stories nearly all sound like he gets nothing out of it. Apparently at least one has, but the divorce happened anyway. If a man enters counseling to save the marriage, whether said counselor is male or female, red pill or blue; can he “win” anything after that?

    the truth that marriage counseling is almost always ‘last stop before toll’

    It seems as though the divorce follows on the heels of the counseling almost as a matter of course, and if the marriage is “saved” from divorce how much frame has he sacrificed during the process? I really don’t know, but the entire counseling industry smacks of the FI to me. A third party was brought in to “talk” and sort it out, so how could this ever serve to raise the respectability of the man in the eyes of the wife? Doesn’t this mean someone more capable or astute than the husband had to keep the ship afloat? And the fact it happened stays in place going forward. I don’t see how it helps the man even if it “helps” him.

  21. Also, what Gregor Samsa posted is correct. You have to approach the divorce process as the fight of your life. Because you are literally fighting for your freedom, your wealth, and your future earnings. The current system has the potential to enslave you to your ex wife as an indentured servant for the rest of your life.

    After my 30 yr marriage I could have been sentenced to lifetime alimony. It was only because I had a good lawyer and I kept a cool clear head the I got 5 years durational alimony instead of something worse.

  22. @ tarl regarding her angry feels trumping economic sense.

    I knew a man who was growing cannabis on an industrial scale.

    His wife found out he was playing around with a younger hotter model.

    She called the police because in her demented fantasy he would be arrested, jailed and she could keep the Aston martins, holiday homes, boat and contents of the bank accounts 🤣🤣

    Imagine her shock when she discovered that everything would be confiscated under the proceeds of crime act!!! She now lives in social housing on government support 🤣🤣

    So yes feels above reals every time!

  23. ‘Marriage counseling’ is just a de facto condition precedent to the divorce filing. The lawyers advise it because the judge wants to see that the couple ‘tried to make it work.’ If one’s wife surprises one with a request for ‘marriage counseling’, there’s usually a plan in place to pull the chute within six months.

    A ploy I experienced was the marriage counselor ‘advised’ me that I should see her separately to address some mental health issues. Again, I just thought this was some inconvenient mid-life overhead, so, whatever, I went along. Actually, in plumbing some of my life experiences, she fed my ex- information that showed up in the divorce filing (not of the salacious variety, but that I had what she termed severe, perhaps untreatable PTSD). This information made me look like a frothing psychopath. At the time I was running a company on two continents, while doing 50% of the housework and running 5 miles a day, and spending all weekend with my children.

    ***

    Hate to be a downer, but I don’t see the industry being rolled back or restructured. That’s because it’s a false economy that employs armies of otherwise pointless ‘professionals’: it’s essentially welfare for bad lawyers, judges, and counselors. And married women. When was the last time we saw an entitlement rolled back or restructured? Perhaps 1996 with welfare reform, but welfare already is bigger than ever.

    I don’t really understand the MRAs. Their message seems to be “But it’s not fair!”. (I could be wrong; I find them unreadable, so don’t, much.) I wonder why they don’t realize “but it’s not fair!” is the whole point, the objective. Perhaps this is why they are so frequently ridiculed by the feminist/white knight crowd. No one with any brains, in a conflict situation, wants a fair fight.

    ***

    Perhaps useful or perhaps not: my ex-wife and I were part of a social group, that was reasonably close. I noticed in the months before her filing that her girlfriends suddenly started treating me like shit, as did a few of their husbands. I didn’t put 2&2 together, being stupid. But this is consistent with a woman being unhappy and her friends urging her on, as they construct a tale of woe that clearly means that the wife has no choice — NO CHOICE — but to pull the plug. So the man has to be demonized, and since I didn’t run around or hit people or get fired or not pay the bills, it took a concerted effort. How many of us have been on a date with a divorcee who said, “Oh, I don’t know. I was bored, and I wished he made more money.” Zero, that’s how many.

    In my own case I have dated three women since 2000 who did not present themselves as either victims of “abuse” or simply victims of “the unfairness of being a woman.” These three were the ones I was able to have meaningful relationships with, and could have married. Recently I had a first date with a seemingly interesting woman and within 20 minutes I heard about her ex- *and* her father being “abusive”. Her dad had bonus points because he was “alcoholic.” (Check please, I just remember I have to be somewhere!)

  24. Preach it BV!

    Also had the same used against me experience and as I have said before the head shrinkers say I am fucked in the head becuase of xyz or say I am fucked in the head because xyz hasn’t fucked up my head

    Can’t win with those fuckers and I don’t play rigged games…. Unless I rigged them

  25. For those of us already divorced and know for damn sure not to marry again this post seems less relevant. Don’t get me wrong Rollo, it’s a good post and for those who have not married they damn sure need to read it. It should be a cold shower for guys still married.

    Rollo, you’ve written a ton of posts about marriage and how to not screw them up, but I can’t help but wonder if the follow to this post goes back to the basics of how to not screw it up. I’m reading the Manual of Seduction by Franco. SJF had it in his library and shared it with me. There is a lot of material out there on frame and how to not become subservient to your woman. If any guys reading Rollo’s latest post are getting the feeling your marriage is doomed or you’ve got a dead bedroom I highly suggest reading the Franco book. It’s a quick read and immediately hits on the evolutionary basics of attraction and frame. Franco basically says here is the reality of male-female desire dynamics. Don’t fuck it up.

  26. As a follow-up: how many alpha or sigma male marriage counselors are out there? That would be zero. They’re going to approach any strong man in a troubled relationship with the usual resentment and distrust that they’ve had since high school, when the football star got the girls the counselor only fantasize about.

    There might be a female counselor who is attracted to the man in the barrel, but Sisterhood trumps all.

    Knowing what I know now, I would say, “No, I’m not going to marriage counseling.” “Why not?” “Because I’m not going to divorce you. If that’s what you want, get out, get an apartment, and file the papers.” “The children …!” “I’ll get a nanny.” “We can work on this with a counselor!” “Who, do we know, has gone to marriage counseling except a few months before the wife pulled the plug? I’m not going. If you have things you want to ‘work on’, tell me to my face.”

    It wouldn’t work, because she’d just make a false VAWA complaint, but I’d do it.

  27. I am not sure there is a big picture solution for men who want a family.

    I can tell you here in NC there is no common law marriage, no pailmoney, lower child support payments for unwed fathers and they do more to enforce visitation rights for unwed fathers ( the last two help ensure higher voluntary child support payment compliance) but even then some of that shit varies a lot from county to county

  28. Thanks for this posting Rollo.
    Financial rape is one thing, but parental alienation or the threat of it is far worse. Hopefully with more widespread knowledge lawmakers will begin to recognize the legitimacy of fathers as parents.

    The custody pendulum, used to be in late 1800’s, in fathers favor (men got custody), then it switched after feminism to be wholly in females favor, while either extreme was not ideal for kids. Kids also suffer from alienation as well as grand parents and cousins etc. Some women are mature and rationale enough to not use kids as weapons, but many are willing to use kids. Kids to them are not people, but an extension of their body to be used as they see fit.

    It has been slow for men to realize all of this. It should not be a surprise that men don’t want to be part of legal system that can strip their kids from them, as well as their money/property. Even worse for guys that can’t make child support payments, they face jail-time and/or lose of licenses. Currently there are laws being pushed by femi-nazis to extract men’s resources not matter what the plight of the poor guy is – in jail, held hostage overseas even, unemployment, veterans disability, etc. Miss child support and face jail-time. These guys are now lumped in with other penal system slaves (drug user/low level drug offenders) to become part of the federal slave labor force in our jails for profit system.

    The slow creep of revolutionary change is happening in several states, but feminist still oppose equal parenting/shared parenting. Their are groups still at the grass roots level like The Fathers Rights Movement and many others that are pushing for 50/50 custody, which is a start to rectifying this social debacle.

    Some groups like Leading Women for Shared Parenting are group of 1st wave/2nd wave feminist, trad-cons, that are pushing for 50/50 as well. Their marketing approach is made to appeal to females interestingly enough on a two front approach… the trad-con family and to the feminist. Trad-con is obvious as they want to keep families together and at the least keep fathers in their kids lives. From the feminist approach by appealing to hypergamy and solipsism by saying having a 50% father frees her time up for herself and for pursuing her other “activities”.

  29. LOL!
    “That would be zero. They’re going to approach any strong man in a troubled relationship with the usual resentment and distrust that they’ve had since high school, when the football star got the girls the counselor only fantasize about”

    That’s how I felt about the judges I dealt with. A bunch of dweebs who got shit on in high school getting their revenge on one of the cool kids

  30. A big picture solution to man wanting a family is an interesting question. I want this for my girls, so I have been involved in the fathers rights movement, which advocates for shared custody. This is at least a start in resolving the negative outcomes from marriage; however, females still have the “silver bullet” of the VAWA and false allegations to thwart that.

    Only social involvement and activism against misandric toxic feminism will be a long-term solution.

  31. It’s been my experience — with everyone but especially women and children — when they say they want their ‘freedom’ or to be ‘free’ or similar, implying they’re currently under some sort of oppression, they do not mean ‘freedom of choice’ they mean ‘freedom from responsibility or consequence’

    real freedom means leaving the corral and is scary; the only safety net is what you have on you

    men are made for this and naturally have within them the ability to take this challenge on; women and the weak only enviously see that this man gets to do whatever he wants, not that he is on the hook for any fuckups

    women certainly prefer the made man but why and where do they think all these scars come from? evidently it’s not their problem to know or care

  32. The MRM seems to get a lot of hate in this part of the sphere. There efforts might be in vein, but where else does a man getting ready to go through this meat grinder turn to? There really aren’t a lot of options.

  33. Ton, when you say “county to county” aren’t we really talking “judge to judge”? Because what it took me forever to understand was that there isn’t, basically, any law controlling a judge who chooses to be subjective and unfair. Sure, he has guidelines, but they are so broad as to be a loaded weapon pointed at your face. The last time I was in divorce court, after nine-months of hearings, the judge did not allow my attorney to make a closing statement, and proceeded to cut my 72 hours a month of visitation to 58. That ex- was good at crying on the stand.

    This is something the MRAs think is solvable, apparently. I don’t see how, unless there are mandatory conditions to divorce, such as 50/50 legal and physical custody. The courts won’t go for that because their workload would go up.

  34. The MRM always seems to working from a position of weakness and I can’t see that is helpful to a man.

    Not a fake posistion of weakness to suck someone on for the kill, but an actual effeminate, helpless weakness

    That will never appeal to healthy men

  35. Sort of true BV but here in NC the judges look at other settlements in that particular county to figure out what is typical. So if you get divorced outside of Ft Bragg, the county is extrmely hositle to men but the courts say shut your pie hole, its typical for this jurisdiction

    One county over, and men do much better because the judges have to consider more reasonable cases to base their decree on making that county less hostile to men by default

    Not sure I am explaining that well….. I’ll try to clarify if needs be

  36. With respect to MRM whiny-babies, you can’t litigate in a corrupt court, which is the current situation. I think they help the other side by simultaneously diminishing the case for men, and legitimizing a corrupt system.

    Lately a few tradcon women have adopted the posture (when they’re not complaining about men being unwilling to Man UP!): ‘Come back! We’ll be nice this time!’ This is obviously stupid, given the external reality of extant family law. But it gets them half-way there to realizing that they got their way and control the welfare of families, children and husbands — and some of us figured it out. This is true also, in my experience, of flaming lefty feminists, once they hit 35. They all say, “I’m not like that …” but continuing in this vein is trite. They’re all like that.

  37. @ pinelero

    That’s the underplayed component in the solution, men fighting back in a unified fashion.

    What I do know from my life is that there are times when a fight is necessary and right. Wishing and hoping will get one nowhere. Playing by shitty, rigged rules is a foolish gamble that only serves to strengthen broken systems.

    Men as a whole have lost 2 major things : 1) the ability to read other people and systems for what they are, and 2) the willpower and understanding of how and when to fight back.

    I have zero faith in any system and am always highly suspect of it. Men don’t grasp that they need to play by a different set of rules that are of their own device. Looking to the very forces that are hellbent on your destruction is insane.

    Play the system without getting played by it.

    Or else it will eventually fuck you.

  38. Alert: There is no marriage counselor who will benefit the relationship, neither male nor female. In some ways the males are worse. My ex had a real thing for psychology, including a degree, and every few years would develop some nebulous unhappiness and decide the marriage needed fixing. I was utterly beta, fantastic father, chore doer, appeaser, immersed in modern churchy life. We probably saw 6 or 7 counselors over the marriage (23 years) with the mix of male to female about half and half. I would take the brunt of blame and would rise to the man-up challenge in attempt to meet ever growing lists of behaviors and actions. It felt like I would jump and then, in mid-air, be told how high. Worth noting is that the females actually grew to despise my ex in the long run and the sessions would be terminated abruptly by my ex once the shrink turned on her and put demands on her and pointed out her flaws. This left only the record of my supposed issues and a long list of performance traps set forth that I was constantly reminded of with no reference to her responsibilities. The male counselors were fawning beta chumps who would never even consider that the perfect little woman could do wrong. They all spoke in that soothing lilting voice that any christian who ever listened to popular family radio shows knows to well. It is really bad. The final counseling was in the midst of the divorce and was a supposed christian and I was really awakening to truth through Rollo and Dalrock and many forums for men going through divorce. I openly held him to biblical mandates and scripture and confronted him regularly. He said I used the bible wrongly because I used it as a weapon. The Word of God declares it a sword, but whatever. The more masculine I grew the more he derided me and sympathized with her. He declared we needed one of his weekend intensives for $3000 and I said I would if he told her she needed to withdraw her divorce suit with prejudice and this placed him in a tough spot. He then said instead to read carefully the confidentiality rules and restrictions for our counseling and that he would be testifying in favor of her at the divorce hearing. Male marriage shrinks get all of their validation from browbeating and humiliating husbands in front of their wives, especially the christian ones because they are wimps in the eyes of their own wives. Female marriage shrinks, at least the married christian ones, you can have a chance with for the very same reason if you are strong and confident. Overall though, all marriage counseling is bad news and do not imply by Rollo’s post that his friend was in trouble because the shrink was female. It’s all bad news. I am 3 years divorced, 52 years old, fit, career and finances back on track after losing everything and despite 2 more years of child support and alimony. Mid-30s females line up to spend time with me. Ex is bitter and alone even with primary custody of last son (16) because all of my kids (4 sons) prefer to be with me most of the time. She recently got a cat.

  39. Ton, understood.

    It blew my mind when my divorce lawyer finally admitted that the window-dressing of “equitable divorce” was just window-dressing, and the judge had unilateral authority to do what he wanted “in the best interest of the child.” (This was Virginia.) My lawyer worked the judges as much as the fact. He told me I would have a hard time in trial #6 because the judge was an Irish Catholic, raised by his mother, who could not conceive of a mother being at fault absent evident physical abuse — or, what we call around here, a white knight whose sense of self improved each time he nailed a divorcing father.

  40. From Positive Masculinity “What makes the Beta the Beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility.”

    His demise is actualized by who he allows to establish the precepts that define his civility. A man who relinquishes his control over how his own civility is defined, self manifests gross personal weakness in doing so. Simultaneously, he effectively invites opportunists, scavengers and thieves to plunder him.

  41. Glad you understood BV. Having one of those TBI’s are a bitch spells and I can feel the Swiss cheese deal going on with my thinking and recall

  42. Excellent post, Rollo.

    Re MRAs — yes, they’re pointless for the most part. They have achieved a few “successes” here and there in terms of shared parenting (which has the impact in most states of lowering CS payments dramatically), but it’s very incremental. Overall their impact on the system is minimal, because the underlying reasons for the system remain intact and are not being addressed by the MRA groups.

    Re Counseling — My counselor (female) was not as bad as most, as when she learned of the affair my ex started during the counseling that my ex had requested to begin with, she basically cut her off completely and barred her from counseling. My ex had no interest in counseling herself, of course (when a woman suggests counseling, she’s looking for someone else to enforce her views on you so that it’s 2-on-1, not looking to change herself, trust me), so that was that. Having said that, it had no impact on the divorce (nothing came up, and the counselor didn’t testify or anything like that). In all it was more or less a waste of time, but at least it wasn’t harmful, given what I’ve heard from other guys about their experiences.

    Re Accusations — The critical thing to keep in mind here is that almost all courts in the US at least now follow the “Duluth” approach to DV. The Duluth approach basically isn’t about physical DV (although that is included in it) — it basically is about “power and control”, such that anything the husband does which can be viewed as the husband exerting power or control over the wife or the relationship is DV per the Duluth approach. This includes restricting spending, it includes restricting GNOs, it includes snooping on her cellphone or emails about her affairs, it includes even something like raising one’s voice in an argument (including an argument about an ongoing affair, for example), or being “emotionally distant” — all of this is now viewed as DV in most courts, because it falls under the Duluth approach (which, as you can see, isn’t really about DV at all but is a way of inserting feminism into marriages and disrupting any kind of traditional marriage relationship by making it effectively illegal as DV). What this means is that around the time of marital disintegration and divorce, it is exceptionally easy for a wife to get you kicked out of the house based on a DV accusation, and make that stick, even if you have never ever been violent with your wife — because it’s likely that at some point in the disintegration you probably got angry and raised your voice, meaning you committed DV under the Duluth standards. Or, if you ever fought about marriage or got angry about an affair, or what have you, you also committed DV under the Duluth standard. Basically, the way it is set up, pretty much every husband who is married has committed DV at some time or other under the Duluth standard, which means that the wife has an easy time of slicing and dicing you if she chooses to do so. So if you find yourself in this situation, remain as calm as you can, do not get angry or raise your voice (no matter how much she goads you into that and no matter what she has done), and keep your wits about you because it’s extremely easy to be dinged for DV based on the Duluth standards, even if you have never been violent with your wife.

    Re Finances — The way to get out of alimony is to have a wife who earns around what you do. The way to get out of onerous child support payments is to get more or less equal custody of the children (or more). Keep these two things in mind. Also keep in mind that while child support is quite similar regardless of where you live (the standards for shared custody are not, so those matter), the standards for alimony vary wildly, and I mean wildly, as between different states. Learn what the law is where you are, and learn it now, so that you can assess the risk. Oh, and it’s the law where you’re living when you’re divorced that matters — not where you got married. Keep that in mind if you are married and decide to move states, just so you can be aware of any increased risk profile (trust me, your loving wife will be fully up to speed of any increased benefit profile for her based on the move well ahead of time).

    Most importantly, realize this: yes, the system is unjust in its outcomes, but as Rollo says, this is because the fundamental social orientation on which it is based is what it is. When you understand that underlying system, you see that the current way we do divorce “makes sense”, because it serves the FI to a tee. It is the perfect combination of old books for the guy (one the hook financially as if it were still 1950), new books for the girl (divorce at will, adultery doesn’t matter, always get the kids). The divorce system fits the underlying social system almost perfectly, which is why trying to change it by chipping away at it incrementally in legislatures is mostly fruitless. Accept this, and plan your lives accordingly, whether you are currently married or not.

  43. @Dave

    I’ve thought for some time that if it became unavoidable the solution for me may be to convert to Islam.

    Given I don’t believe in any god it doesn’t really matter who I’m lying to appease.

    It would certainly put a stop to feminist nonsense in my day to day existence.

  44. @Rollo, do you know of any studies done that document the amount of money the divorce court systems bring in per year? I’d love to see how the red pill (if at all) is decreasing the amounts the courts take in because dudes all over the country are avoiding knocking chicks up and avoiding marriage.

  45. The betas first mistake is failing to realize that those who proactively define his civility for him are not doing so in his best interest. They are doing so in their best interest at his loss and most typically with just enough false promise of reward to keep him fooled. This intrigue is centered around people “trespassing against one another”. There are a few options to deal with trespassers. One is to suck it up and forgive and forget. Another is to be aware and act in such a way that you effectively project a stern warning to them. Yet another is to let the trespasser come close enough by feigning naivety so you can use the hell out of them and enjoy trespassing against them. The most undeniably effective option is homocide which has been used extensively with great effect for ages.

  46. I was only able to survive divorce by accepting that I would lose and instead of spending time trying to win, started early figuring out how to recover. My divorce was a real shit show circus because my ex was high conflict cluster b, which I figured out promptly, again thanks to Rollo and Dalrock and other men in the same boat. My ex actually relished in the whole process as I was slowly run through the grinder and the process lasted a year and a half, despite my every effort to expedite and actually try to warn her of financial loss and family alienation. The harshest reality was that she actually enjoyed the whole thing Too many outrageous events to list, but one highlight was the gallery in court of all her friends, at least a dozen, who were wives of my ex-friends of course. It was surreal. The lawyers probably got 80 grand, she got two houses which were owned outright because I am a real estate investor and the fact that the second house, a flip, was strictly part of my business, did not matter. She sold it for 340 grand fast (under-value) and kept the other. During the divorce she spent or moved a savings account of 40 grand with no question or challenge. Court also gave her 180 grand cash, 3 years alimony. I was left with my pick-up truck, my tools, about 50 grand, and the declaration that with these things I would have the ability to re-build and move on. I was way ahead of them.

    You will hear some stories here and elsewhere of men “winning” in divorce, but the odds are so far against you. Spend your time planning the recovery. Watch every little thing they do so it won’t take you by surprise, but don ‘t think you can avert it, you can only brace for it. Picture a life for yourself on the other side and get to work right now. Use the image of that life to carry you through the dark times. You can do it.

  47. As a side note, the disbursements in my divorce were so uneven for one main reason. In my blue pill beta state, I decided to be a conscientious objector to the divorce and stand on some moral high ground against the whole sordid thing. In the early months I disregarded all of the papers I was served, missed all of the court dates, declared I had done no crime so would not appear. It was really theatrical and noble and impressed exactly nobody. The judge hated me for it and threatened incarceration every time I later appeared. My own lawyer thought me a fool (rightfully) when I finally got one after removal from my home, restraining order, loss of kids, temporary orders to pay her exhorbitant bills, etc. He always used my foolish early mistakes as excuse for getting our ass kicked in court all the time and I guess he was right. I can’t live with regrets because I did what I thought was right and I accept my choices with a wry smile and shake of the head. Anyway, at this point this is becoming an outlet for me to get some things out and share and although I appreciate it, enough already. Thanks to all and I hope I can help in some way.

  48. @SFC TON

    It doesn’t matter.

    If you’re massively outnumbered and / or they just vote in Sharia law which is quite conceivable in the U.K. In literally a couple of decades then it might be a pragmatic option.

    In the same way a lot of Eastern Europeans didn’t believe in communism but were party officials as it was a way to survive.

    My figures may not be 100% but in Germany at the moment there are 2m ish migrants and only 100k odd soldiers.. plus a comparative handful of police.

    It’s 20:1 and it hasn’t even started.

  49. @dongoner, this is the money line from you:

    Spend your time planning the recovery. Watch every little thing they do so it won’t take you by surprise, but don ‘t think you can avert it, you can only brace for it. Picture a life for yourself on the other side and get to work right now. Use the image of that life to carry you through the dark times.

    There’s enough in this paragraph to start a blog around.

  50. @newlyaloof

    Thanks. Don’t tempt me…

    …but if there is anything specific I can shed light on, I’m here. That goes for all me brothers.

  51. The old set of books vs the new set of books….

    This is true and the connections are accurate. However, the analogy and the observations it relates to are descriptive of a sector of the total and window in time, a segment (and other segments) of history.

    There is only one “book” with one simple “rule” that proves to be true universal. This universal book has but one chapter with one simple four word rule and it is primordial and NEVER broken.

    EAT OR BE EATEN.

    For all the days of a man’s life this rule applies to him. Each day of his life that he fails to heed this truth he lives at greater risk of being eaten more than he eats.

  52. Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted. How you fight the system is up to the individual man, their time, desire, and resources. Me, I don’t like the idea of just sitting by watching it all fall apart. It’s a popular refrain in the manosphere to be passive and say that’s just the way it is and watch the decline. To me that’s unhealthy and not acceptable as it can be better. Men are builders not passive watchers.

    Fathers rights groups are not MRA groups. Typically they are fathers who come into the group after a divorce and parental alienation has occurred. Many members are female companions of men and see how they struggle. Also, solipisism, involved most likely, because they (female) are impacted by loss of his resources and time for themselves.

    My first and only divorce I had no kids, so no chance of running afoul of Divorce INcorporated and being inducted into the fathers to prisoners federal slave system. Yes that divorce settlement was not totally fair, but not so bad that I couldn’t recover financially. With my current wife, I had a few close calls that lead me to research all of the legal possibilities and discovered how the system is stacked against me as a man. RP knowledge about female nature and re-discovering my own positive masculinity has averted going down the same path as many others have had in divorce. My current situation is such that I am happily married for now, but I am involved with TFRM type groups to help myself and other men.

    In some odd way being involved in TFRMS is a form of divorce dread as my wife see’s it as an attempt to take the kids from her if we do break-up.

  53. I’ve thought for some time that if it became unavoidable the solution for me may be to convert to Islam.

    Sharia is a Beta solution to lack of Alpha…

    On marriage:

    1. Vet. Vet Vet Vet. Choose wisely. Very few divorce bombs go off without a lot of warning signs showing even before marriage. Lots of friend and family advice unheeded as well.

    2. Have hand, then never lose it.

    3. Read Rollo objectively.

  54. @Sentient, I’ve noticed that Muslims have little ability to take criticism without becoming unhinged gamma-like creatures. For all their ability to fight feminism, they can’t deal with masculine criticism well.

  55. By unavoidable I mean totally over run by them rampaging the streets chopping up infidels with machetes.

    @newlyaloof – correct – which is why the above scenario is more likely than not at some point.

  56. @pinelero

    It is true that there are many ways to stand against the system. I admire you clearly finding your identity as a builder and agent of change through TFRM. I’m not a joiner and don’t identify that way. I don’t think anybody here is passive and even though some watch it fall apart, they are not “sitting by” as they do so.

    I like to picture holding my arms out in front and touching my fingertips and making a circle. I make my world about that big as far as who I can genuinely hold, protect, serve, help ACTIVELY and hope to have an outcome. Outside of that are many I can influence, be an example to, show charity to, but I spend not one moment concerned with outcome. My way is not how I think anybody else needs to be, but I have peace and clear goals and focus that way. I admire greatly those who have a far greater reach, Rollo and Dalrock at the forefront. These cats changed my life and that’s not being dramatic.

    I do know that my lifestyle and the things I have faced and gone through and what I represent now have influence on people in my past and present surroundings. When my ex’s bitter hag friends see what I have attained, they stay married in attempt to keep their husbands from happiness. I’m saving marriages!

  57. @ Sentient

    I’ve never seen 1 divorce yet that ” came out of nowhere “.

    I have seen many that were mostly inevitable due to a lack of vetting and no frame.

  58. The minority of Muslim wolves get a majority of the press, but the majority of Muslims are rabbits. This doesn’t mean that they can’t do harm, just try to pick up a rabbit who objects, but they are rabbits nonetheless.

    The ability of Muslim men to restrict feminism is vastly overblown in the Anglo manosphere and even within traditionalism women are not without power. Many, many Muslim women play the game in public, but totally domineer their rabbit men in the home.

  59. I live in a Canadian province with no fault divorce. Sounds great, but then everything just goes into the legal separation agreement, where the money gets fought over.

    Ex-wife went after everything I had built up. Basically, what’s hers is hers, and what’s mine is hers. For example, I’m legally allowed to keep an inheritance out of the agreement, but she went after that money anyway. What is blatantly unfair to me, she gets a cut of my future income indefinitely. She retired early, has a good pension, but for the state, that’s still not enough to keep her in the lifestyle she wanted to become accustomed to. I’m supposed to keep working for her benefit. Now, that strikes me as the most unfair part of the divorce process. I get no conjugal rights that she promised at marriage, however I get stuck holding to my side of the deal to support her, married or not.

    We have two adult daughters. Ex-wife went on a campaign with them to discredit me, calling me emotionally abusive, neglected her, and so forth. Anything to smear me.

    But not everything worked out quite as she expected. The daughters saw through her nonsense, and cut her off. One has since reconciled, but keeps her at arms length. The other has a child due in two weeks, and hasn’t told the ex. The ex has no family and she was close to my large family. I kicked her out of my family. She thought she could keep that connection going after divorce. Nope.

    As far as the money goes, I got a better (read ‘more expensive’) lawyer than her, and had him keep things to the letter of the law, and not a penny more. As far as support goes, since she had retired 5 years ago, I had the option to retire and pay no support. She had no legal way to keep me working.

    What I’ve learned from the experience is to be strong, have no positive feelings towards the ex (she won’t have any towards you), know the law, tell your lawyer what you want, and be patient. Above everything else be patient.

  60. @kfg

    Next time you’re in town be my guest and hang out by the Sheffield central mosque at some point and decide if you still feel that way.

  61. “Watch every little thing they do so it won’t take you by surprise, but don ‘t think you can avert it, you can only brace for it. Picture a life for yourself on the other side and get to work right now. Use the image of that life to carry you through the dark times. You can do it.”

    That’s so profoundly true

  62. Wondering how this came to be pros/cons/dissertation/expose on mooslems. One atheist admittedly willing to lie to society in order to avoid his feminist frustrations? Is it cautionary pleading? Is somebody actually trying to save him in a spiritual sense? Wouldn’t best response be “that sounds stupid” and call it a day?

  63. Wondering how this came to be pros/cons/dissertation/expose on mooslems.

    There is a growing adoration of ‘Sharia” or ‘White Sharia” in the Sphere… exchanging one set of problems for another.

  64. @Palma Sailor:

    I’ve hung out by two mosques today, so far. What you see on the tin is not necessarily what you’ll get when you open it up.

    The same goes as well for deeply Conservative (with Fascism added for extra social control) Catholic society.

    Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

  65. @John

    “What I’ve learned from the experience is to be strong, have no positive feelings towards the ex (she won’t have any towards you)”

    This is truth. This was one of the biggest realizations that made me who I am today, but too late to have impact on the divorce proceedings. I was still trying to be reasonable and fair and my lawyer said, “You still want to be seen as noble and good to these people. They think you are a loser and you are not going to change that. Do you want to be a loser AND a sucker?”

  66. Blax

    I’ve never seen 1 divorce yet that ” came out of nowhere “.

    I have seen many that were mostly inevitable due to a lack of vetting and no frame.

    Hey since I know you are a fan…

    Heard the one about the pimp who goes to marriage counseling?

    No?

    OK, what about the one who hired this lawyer to reduce his alimony?

    Not that one?

    Damn – heard the one about the pimp crying on the guy’s shoulder at the bar about how he can’t see his kids this weekend?

    Sheeet. None of those?

    Me neither.

  67. To get married:

    1. Demand a dowry from the wife’s family.
    2. Combine it with your savings and put into Nevada irrevocable asset protected trust in just your name.
    3. Get pre-nup (are still weak now a days).
    4. Rent a small place below your means (avoid house asset that can be lost).
    5. Wife agrees to provide monthly gift to husband that goes into protected trust in his name.

    The trust should be setup to pay for alimony / child support but not to be calculated into any computation. If the payouts are used in any divorce calculation then payouts are setup to stop until retirement. In this way the wife is pre-paying her own settlement.

    http://premiertrust.com/2016/12/30/the-4-things-you-need-to-know-about-a-nevada-asset-protection-trust/

    “Nevada has one of the shortest statute of limitations period of the states that allow self-settled spendthrift trusts. As to future creditors, the transfer should be protected two years from the date of transfer to the Nevada asset protection trust. Although there is a tolling period of six months from when a potential current creditor discovers the transfer, Nevada’s statue outlines ways to lock in the two-year period to apply to even potential current creditors.
    Nevada is one of two states that have no exception creditors. This includes divorcing spouses.”

  68. “The same goes as well for deeply Conservative (with Fascism added for extra social control) Catholic society.”

    If your going to tell the truth make them laught otherwise they will kill you.
    Billy wilder

  69. @Tarl, how many women are thinking that far ahead of the game? How many women’s solipsism predisposes them to never giving the long term effects an afterthought when in the short term they benefit?

  70. I’ve been counseling a friend over the past 6 months. He’s on the sausage side of the meat grinder now but is still, understandably, on that precarious ground that is the occupied territory of post-divorce financial obligation and performance-contingent part-time parenting.

    The notion of “winning” in divorce is a red herring, perhaps dangled by the lawyer (like oncologists they need you to believe you can beat it) but also part of male competitive nature.

    So it is indeed important to frame it as a rigged game in which winning is not possible, but also important to not let that fact erode what you might be able to retain in terms of your foundation going forward. You have to walk the line between not winning and not bleeding out on the field just to end the pain.

    My friend was so distraught, I had to repeatedly talk him out of handing over the keys to his kingdom just to end the process. This was during the dispositions to suss out the wealth that his ex wrongly believed he (they) had. Even though distraught, his natural instinct to protect everyone else was playing straight into the blades of the grinder.

    She frivorced him, yet he was still thinking of her, a certain level of lifestyle, and trying to smooth the whole thing over for his 6 y/o son. Of course, this all came down to $. Same goes for shielding his business partners from the process and any potential economic burden on the company (she was gunning for half the business, of course).

    The money shoveled into the furnace and all that are one thing, but what the “system” and nearly all women take lightly (if at all) – which is the most telling thing, is how many men have those moments sitting alone in some apartment, empty walls, and unpacked boxes, staring at the hollow end of a .38.

    My friend went a week or so where we very nearly lost him. If not for round the clock support from a few of us – and his love for his son illuminating one small corner of his life, he’d be gone.

    So as I continue to tell him: the divorce is hers, she’s won the lottery, but you can win at life.

    She is a taker, a consumer. But you have the power to build, to create. Go be the best father you can be for your son. Go build the life YOU want for yourself and your son. For all her taking and faking, she can never be his father.

    But alas, divorce is like cancer. You don’t “beat” it, you don’t win, you survive another day. It goes into remission. It lurks, somewhere. And so you will never be the same. But if you have been through something like that, you have it in you to live a life worth living.

  71. Heard the one about the pimp whose bitch was so fat she sat on a cadillac and turned it into a smart car?

    Yep.

  72. re Razorwire

    This is a moving submission and your observations are excellent. I am capable of bias through personal experience and blind to some of the realities that I was able to work around with help. It may be disconnected for me to say I rebuilt better, stronger, faster ($6m-man) because I did have some money. “bleeding out on the field” is a very true sentiment because it is easy to go to that place if unchecked. Also true is the very strong desire to somehow force a reconciliation through conceding everything for the sake of that picture of family, marriage, children, home. We HATE to fail and it is impossible to ignore the realities of your failing family, no matter the reasons.

    There is no doubt you were a great support for your friend and that you suffered greatly for your efforts and didn’t even get a medal.

    Funny but relevant aside- I was so disgusted with the whole thing even in the aftermath of my own frivorce that I didn’t think I had it in me to write her a check every month for years and I contemplated paying it all up front with one lump sum which would have depleted all my funds, but which was very appealing in my “fresh start” menatality. My sainted brother, who helped me through as you did your friend, declared, “fuck that, that bitch might die!” Though harsh and wicked, it brought me to my senses, allowed me to use my capital to build my business and recover, and gives me something to chuckle about every month when I write the check.

  73. Great post Rollo. I’ve been reading TRM for about a year and a half now and TRP as well. The knowledge I have obtained from here has been an immense help in terms of dealing with my 2nd divorce. In fact, I just fired my attorney because I finally figured out that I have nothing to gain from using his services anymore. Child support is set, my house was sold and equity was split equally. My ex had to waive spousal support because I proved that she is living with the dude she cheated on me with.

    Divorce is seriously a scam for all these lawyers and therapists to cash in on. I honestly don’t know how some of these attorneys live with the fact that they just bill ridiculous amounts of hours to represent a man when in all actuality most men could represent themselves if they just educated themselves more about the process and realize that the system is set up against us.

    Thanks Rollo, for trying to spread awareness about the feminine imperative. My eyes were opened last year. I’m still a work in progress in terms of completely swallowing the pill, but it’s helped me tremendously in terms of gaming other women and maintaining a strong frame.

    BTW, I’m 46 years old and was Angry Blue pill guy for most of my adult life. It’s a liberating feeling when you finally wake up from that matrix that society makes you a slave to.

  74. @Dan, Donegoner and others,

    I’m curious if after the red pill and the change in your behaviors if you’ve noticed any change in how you perceive your exs perceiving you. I’m wondering if any of these bitches sense the switch and give off vibes revealing this. Not that it matters. Just curious about this kind of shit.

  75. I honestly don’t know how some of these attorneys live with the fact that they just bill ridiculous amounts of hours to represent a man…

    What’s the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
    A bad lawyer can let a case drag out for several years. A good lawyer can make it last even
    longer.

    How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
    “How many can you afford?”

    A small town that can’t support one lawyer can sure support two…

    rimshot!

  76. this topic is indeed dark and I’ve wept more than once reading some of the comments…. this is where I am at right now myself in the divorce machinations and some of the comments could be my story too

    but please please continue putting out all your stories and comments, I need these right now so much and I’m surely not the only one

    thanks to all

  77. Yeah, it’s like cancer, you don’t win.

    Parental alienation is the shit that caused the most problems. When I put my foot down on no additional support and would not agree to ridiculous crap is when she came at me with the best weapon she had: my two children. My daughter made it through to eventually realize what a manipulative bitch her mother was/is. The day after she graduated HS and was emancipated she moved back in with me full time. Thankfully in the past year or so the red pill has been enormously helpful for me in repairing things with my daughter and establishing a strong current relationship with her. My son won’t forgive me and holds grudges in an unhealthy way. When the ex was pretty agreeable on a dissolution until she found out about my affair. After that she manipulated the kids horribly. My son never really recovered from it and is still pissed.

    I was able to cope with the financial shit, thought it sucked. The problems with the kids hurt in a bad way. All the great things you do with and for them when they are little ones is forgotten when the ex is poisoning their minds with lies and all sorts of shit.

    Lawyer crap….meh. My lawyer was so bad in the end I refused to pay the large majority of the bill. Lawyer realized all the fuckups. In the future I will vett any attorney very carefully.
    I feel so fucking done with this entire topic I just want to move on. Alimony is DONE after this September. Party time!

  78. Again you don’t understand much about islam

    When hajjis take over an area they won’t allow many of the conquered to convert. They want to keep everyone on that second class status deal so they can exploit the folks they just conquered. Conversion would limit the exploitation and they don’t really have the masculine frame in their personal interact with women you think they have. They have no frame, they fear women but yet let women run the home front via stealth mode

  79. @newlyaloof

    It’s hard to tell because she is BPD and therefore all over the place. I do know that most of her friends outwardly and openly project contempt toward me, even to their kids, who still are around my kids and I hear things. I have so immersed my younger sons in red pill thinking that they tell me about it and laugh. I hear quite another story from one insider, an unfortunate friend going through a divorce right now from a recently outed cheating whore who are both part of the old circle of friends. He has been maligned and cast out, despite her being the cheater (which he obviously drove her to, right?) and has now come around to be my friend and get advice. It’s strange at first when all your ball game/bbq/poker night couples-buddies abandon you, but you come to accept it. After all, they still want some of that begrudging hag nooky. Well I welcomed this cat with open arms and no bitterness and he said ALL the husbands spoke glowingly of me, albeit outside earshot of the wives, and all had a bit of the old longing for what I now have. He says he sure did. So, I’m teaching him to run tight game and, despite his early doubts and apprehension, he is having a ball.

    The insider talk is that the wives confided to the husbands how unhappy my ex is and her regrets and if she’d known then what I was REALLY like she never would have done it and it’s my fault because WHY didn’t I show her and the truth is she’s right in that sense and I was a chump husband and it’s too damned bad, especially for the OTHER husbands who hear this stuff right from the source and still don’t get it. She sends me little flowery statements about things that spark a memory in her sometimes, but I am completely dark and never reply or say anything to her ever. I take many getaway trips, have taken up kayaking/fishing to go along with my destination hobbies of surfing and snowboarding (yes still at 52 years), attend many concerts and I’m seen around town with many lovely younger ladies dancing and cavorting. One of my sons, home this summer from college, confided that she sulks a lot, stares off for long periods, and he hears her cry cometimes. I’m not gloating. It’s a great tragedy. But she destroyed my family and my sons’ late childhood, tarnished my legacy, attempted to ruin my reputation and my business. I warned her well in advance that there was no stepping back from this. My eldest son, the most sensitive, says I could have her back easily and tries to convince me to do so, sometimes gets mad at me for my firm stance, but then realizes the truth and understands. These concepts we stand on as men are hard to ingrain fully into a youth that is conditioned so thoroughly to the contrary.

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