What I’m going to get into today is going to be kind of dark. I’m doing this not to exacerbate any guy’s negative feelings, but to shed some light on the reality of how divorce operates in the United States as well as many other western societies. A lot of guys tend to focus on the logistics, the laws, the process of how a divorce proceeds. Much of what I see coming from Men’s Rights advocates about divorce centers on the need for legal and institutional reform of the process in their misguided hopes of creating a more ‘equal’ state between men and women. From what I understand, MRA’s primary hope (for most every issue they address) is that this reform can come from a top-down approach – changing the system to be more fair – rather than confronting the fact that these laws, divorce and others, are manifestations of an endemic social dynamic that is based on a fundamentally unfair, unequal interrelation between the sexes.
What I’m going to focus on here is dissecting this process, but doing so from a Red Pill aware perspective. While it may be the purview of the MRM that this process is fundamentally corrupt and in need of reform (I agree), what they willingly ignore is the root level inequalities that are part of men and women’s evolved differences that are the source of this process. This isn’t meant to be some take-down of the MRM; I find their causes worthy enough, but I believe their approach to solving them to be fundamentally flawed due to a refusal to accept the core, evolved differences in men and women and a stubborn refusal to reject the ideals of egalitarian equalism that the feminism they claim to hate is ostensibly founded on.
This system is designed to create conflict, but that conflict is rooted in the presumption that men are always at fault in it. This is why there can never be an equalist solution to correcting the endemic problems of modern divorce procedures.
At present I have a personal friend I’m counseling who is in the opening phases of this process. He and his soon to be Ex are also in ‘marriage therapy’. First thing I ask, “is it a man or woman therapist?” He says woman. I say, you’re fucked; start planning your exit now.
He agrees, but still has that Blue Pill hope he’s not wasting his money (she’s a SAHM) and they’ll be able to negotiate some mutually amicable feigning of her desire for him. When we invest ourselves in something we’ve accepted is supposed to be effective we’ll hold on to hope that it will because there’s a part of us (especially in idealistic men) that doesn’t like to think we are able to be conned. This is a very well studied psych phenomenon. We convince ourselves that we ‘got something out of’ an experience regardless of it being a provably bad investment. We like to believe that in all labor there is profit, but reality shows us, quite often, that this simply isn’t true.
I gave him a list of things to keep in his head as he was going to these counseling sessions, but I also told him the truth that marriage counseling is almost always ‘last stop before toll’ and that he needs to be careful now because his wife will eagerly use this therapist’s testimony to destroy his character at a later date. That’s the profit model for therapists in divorce proceedings. They’re getting paid when you’re coming and going.
I told him she will turn into someone he never thought she could become and most of it will be at the prodding of their therapist and her attorney (who he’ll also be paying). It’s in all of their best interests that they create a monster of him. The male anger bias I write about here will be the primary basis for his character assassination.
Anything even remotely, positively masculine or Alpha is still a ‘man being a man’ and this can always be reinterpreted as potentially aggressive or violent. In a feminine-primary social order where feminized men and women are taught that men are inherently evil and prone to anger and violence (the “culture” of masculinity) there’s an army of women and White Knight sympathizing men who want nothing more than to stick it to the ‘man’ symbolically. And when they draw a paycheck from doing so they’re all the more eager. Add to this that they feel a sense of moral justification in “making the world a better place” by burning him in an effigy of all men and you get to where we are now. We presently live in a social order that presumes any masculinity is “toxic” or “hyper” masculinity. So disassociated from anything positive has society become with regard to conventional masculinity that just the term is now masculinity is a negative connotation.
Needless to say this will be the starting point from which a soon-to-be-divorced man will have his undoing begin. So prevalent is the presumption of abuse on a man’s part that even the most saintly father can be remade into a secret monster. It’s just ‘how guys are’ and this presumption also serves as a point of justification for women, and Blue Pill male sympathizers, to feel okay about pillorying him.
Yes, I understand that there is at least a reportedly higher incidence of men being the abuser in domestic cases, but we also have to understand that the definition of “abuse” has been rendered so ambiguous that most men don’t realize virtually anything they do in a domestic confrontation can fit the definition of “abuse”. Just raising one’s voice is enough to qualify as psychological abuse. Denying a woman access to money also fits a new definition of abuse. I once counseled a guy who had been taken to jail for snatching the car keys away from his drunk wife so as to prevent her from driving drunk. She called the police and, as you likely know, the man is always the party removed from the home by police. Snatching the keys was enough to qualify his removal. 5 months later he’s living with his parents (at 43) and paying rent on a home and car payments on a car only his now ex is allowed to occupy and drive.
I know how my friend’s story is going to end. I’m doing what I can to give him fair warning – it’d be better for him to completely pull up stakes and remove himself from the situation than stick around and ‘try to make it work’ because the longer he lingers the more ammunition she and the therapist potentially get. I think this is also the profit model; keep the Blue Pill chump husband around the house for as long as it takes to build him up as a stereotypical ‘man’ and then escalate the most marginal conflict as a ‘typical’ domestic violence incident and he’s gone. If you watch the above documentary on the divorce industry you’ll see how many lucrative profit opportunities there are at every stage of divorce; and there is no incentive to dissuade divorce profiteers from doing anything different. And, as I stated earlier, there are many ready-made social and moral conventions available to help them justify their profits.
Old Books and New Books
‘No one cares how mean your ex was, how unfair she was to you and so on … at the end of the day, the system can’t right wrongs, they only process your case’
The above and following quote was from an article in the National Post, Family court advice for men, from one who’s made it through;
I’ve had hundreds and hundreds of notes; on a gender breakdown, probably 80 percent are from men, 20 percent from women.
I’ve heard from family court lawyers, some of whom are angry at my suggestions that fathers get the tough end of the stick in child custody cases (though the actual evidence is reasonably clear that they do), some of whom say “the whole system is B.S … one of the first things out of my mouth when I see someone is, ‘What’s your budget and how much does he/she dislike you?’” I’ve heard from judges and former judges and psychologists and counsellors.Without exception, they agree that the system is beyond broken.
What we have, fundamentally, in the state of modern divorce is a conflict between old books social contracts serving as the ethical basis of a new books resource transfer from men to women (Thomas Ball even described it as such). Really this conflict is at the root of much of what Red Pill awareness (from the social perspective of intersexual dynamics) describes, but in this instance there’s an entire social complex that influences policy and profit. Judges, attorneys, psychologists and counselors all make a very good living from this fundamental conflict; and if you watch the Divorce Incorporated documentary I linked you’ll see that there’s no incentive to ever change that profitable conflict at any stage.
However, all of the people involved in even a typical western divorce are all subject to the belief sets that the Feminine Imperative has predisposed them to about men and women. We presume a default state of victimhood is to be applied to a woman and the benefit of that victimhood doubt runs deep. We see it evolve into the kangaroo court systems that govern what we’re told to believe is an endemic ‘rape culture’ on college campuses – up to and beyond denying a man his civil rights.
We’re taught that any slight appearance of abuse towards a woman is an opportunity to teach any man doing so a lesson, but should a man be the victim of the same abuse? Well, he probably had it coming. The Feminine Imperative has (and still is in some senses) prepared women and Blue Pill men to believe that women are untouchable; always to be believed, by default, in their victim status no matter the circumstance.
Now we can expand this presumption to every party involved in a divorce proceeding. We get female therapists whose livelihoods depend on following the victimhood of women and demonization of men (and masculinity) script the Feminine Imperative has laid out for them for most of their lives. We get Blue Pill Alphas eager to prove their authority by punishing any man who might remind them of their asshole fathers or who fits their idea of what the imperative has taught him is a “misogynist”. The imperative plays to the natural ‘protector’ impulse of these men. We get well-conditioned attorneys, counsellors and judges ready to follow that same script by legally enacting the retribution and restitution upon which feminism has always been based.
But underneath all of this we have the fundamental inequalities in ideology between what the old books social contract expects of men while the divorce industry enforces, almost unilaterally male, punishment based on a new books social paradigm to better empower women – presumably to right the past wrongs they believe were endemic in that old books paradigm. What we have today are new books divorce and marital laws based on those old books presumptions of men’s evils, indiscretions and addressing the toll it allegedly took on women. The result is a system that is designed to psychologically, financially and personally ruin any man whose idealism led him to believe that men and women share some mutually recognized concept of love; enough to compel him to a lifetime commitment in modern marriage. It is a system calculated to destroy the same Blue Pill conditioned men who will eagerly stand up to defend their ego-investments in it.
The common refrain to this is always “just don’t get married”, and it is precisely this system’s goal to disincentivize long term commitment between the sexes so that this response is the only logical one. Thus, we get women spending small fortunes to freeze their eggs in the hopes that one day some man will be foolishly idealistic enough to look past all the inherent life-threatening risks marriage and divorce uniquely disposes men to. Thus, we get old books moralists berating men for wanting to prolong their adolescence (never mind women doing so is considered empowerment) by avoiding the dangers of marriage that they’ve been smart enough to understand, or have been a party to in one way or another.
In my next essay I’ll be addressing the misguided opinion of some ‘stand up’ Purple Pill moralists that the Red Pill is “just for guys who are obsessed with sex and make getting laid their life’s mission”. I’ll elaborate on why this is simply a distraction from the much larger meta-scope of Red Pill awareness and intersexual dynamics. However, understanding how the divorce industry is based on the same dynamics the Red Pill has described for a decade and a half is a good illustration of why the Red Pill isn’t just about men basing their lives on getting laid. This system is fundamentally unegalitarian and unequal, and the designed imbalances are entirely founded in Red Pill intersexual principles. This is why the MRM will never be successful in their hopes of a top down institution of social change. The laws and the social imperatives that crush men are symptoms of a deeper problem that requires a bottom up changing of men’s minds about women and themselves.
[…] Divorce Incorporated […]
What you are describing is one manifestation of a phenomena seen in almost all areas of human endeavor today. Professions and “institutions” in adversarial and impersonal societies who driven largely by the lure of metrics , monetary profit and self-promotion are almost guaranteed to worsen the problems they were meant to solve. The divorce industry is therefore just one example of what happens when you such motives run wild.
A post of mine from almost 4 year ago..
Had an ex hit me one time when she was drunk. I left that night and slept in my truck. Called my attorney the next day he he counseled me to GTFO. He was currently representing a dentist who was living in an apartment after he was the one arrested after his STBX got drunked up, hit him, and then called the cops on him. He went to jail. I dodged the bullet with mine and got away relatively unscathed. Yep, it happens and men generally pay the price, You will be arrested, no doubt. All it takes is a… Read more »
Been reading and lurking for a while, guess it’s about time I said something. Fairly newly unplugged, married twice and divorced twice, and never again. First one – seven years, two daughters, ex moved halfway across the country with them after the divorce, and only after they became adults did we really develop much of a relationship. Second one – 22 years (which was at least 6 years too long), still paying for that one. But I got off light. I ended up with a negotiated settlement of 7 years alimony. I ran into one gal a few weeks ago… Read more »
I really like this post rollo.
*high five dude*
Every word in this post is fact. Men considering divorce and men whom divorce is happening to need to step back and see the larger picture. You are playing a game of chess but you haven’t a queen or bishop. MUCH planning and emotional stability is required to achieve even a semblance of parity. It can be done. Men can play the game. It takes a stoic resolve. Keep your red pill close to your chest. It is possible for a woman to get tripped up in her own solipsism and appear foolish in court. The more determined man can… Read more »
Here’s a question. There are a number of men for whom a domestic violence accusation (not sure if just an arrest is enough, but definitely a conviction) would get them fired and make them essentially unemployable. They would have to start over in a new field with a dramatic cut in salary. In that case, it is very much against the woman’s economic interests to make any such false accusation. How many women are smart enough to realize that? Or do their angry feelz trump their economic sense?
@Tarl, how many women are thinking that far ahead of the game? How many women’s solipsism predisposes them to never giving the long term effects an afterthought when in the short term they benefit?
@Rollo Tomassi – Another excellent post. I touched on the idea of “Entitled Victimhood” in a post I made (you can see it here: https://alphajedi.com/2016/07/12/entitiled-victimhood/). I think an excerpt from that post that fits with you points above is: “From this fem-centric perspective we’ve done men and women a great disservice: Men are put into a catch 22 scenario where they are supposed to be “real men” yet are socially crucified for acting in a traditionally male way, while women are treated like infallible children that are not held accountable for their choices. And this is where we see the… Read more »
In your book you mention that it seems to others like you’re running out of topics. One thing you haven’t addressed but I’d like to see one day: the toxicity displayed in the intersexual relationships you describe also apply to mother/son relationships in single parent households. Even moreso, since the son is dependent, resourceless, naive, powerless — and idealistic beyond reason due to the cultural supersaturation of the Feminine Imperative. Many of your posts have helped me broach a broad understanding of what happened to me in my childhood. You describe toxic wives and girlfriends, but all of these principles… Read more »
[…] this post, I was inspired by Rollo Tomassi’s excellent post Divorce Incorporated. While he highlights the finical and social dynamics that have lead to a broken and heavily biased […]
My quickly maturing daughter would in the recent past be deemed eminently marriage-able. But I’ve warned her, and she seems to accept, that it may well not happen for her. At best it she could get a Swedish style temporary liaison and raise a kid or two in a shared parenting scenario for a period of years. Along with the death of dating is coming the death of marriage for all except the UMC and old school landed gentry. She will also have to absorb my current evangel that if she wants any parenting plan to work she will have… Read more »
The $8.99 I spent for the kindle version of Positive Masculinity is possibly the best money I have ever spent. This book is excellent, really hits home and articulately concisely spells out many of the neuances of this reality. Thank you Rollo. I will be passing it along to everyone in my circle. I think it is important for all of us to do the difficult thing, the thing we most fear, about sharing this knowledge and that is to share it with those whom we fear may try to persecute us for it. I’m not advocating shoving it down… Read more »
Don’t know how many of you are familiar with the blog linked below, it is worth monitoring.
“It’s human nature to preach to the choir like a coping mechanism to procrastinate what we really want and know we should be doing”
First thing I ask, “is it a man or woman therapist?” He says woman. I say, you’re fucked; start planning your exit now. I dunno. If one had to choose a therapist blindly, then I’d say you’re completely right. But the choice usually isn’t blind. One can make an initial visit. One can ask around. One can ask the therapist who’s advice or style they admire. One can ask if they’re familiar with with any blue-bill aware names (e.g., Jordan Peterson, Warren Ferrell, Helen Smith). I say this because even better than a male therapist is a red-pilled female therapist.… Read more »
@AD “What you are describing is one manifestation of a phenomena seen in almost all areas of human endeavor today. Professions and “institutions” in adversarial and impersonal societies who driven largely by the lure of metrics , monetary profit and self-promotion are almost guaranteed to worsen the problems they were meant to solve. The divorce industry is therefore just one example of what happens when you such motives run wild.” This concept is the basis of Vadim Zeland’s Reality Transurfing book in which tactics are employed by an individual in a bottoms up approach to not letting “institutions” steal your… Read more »
I was lucky in my own divorce in that the soon to be ex-wife disliked attorneys even more than I did. So there wasn’t a whole lot of using them beyond a few consultations. Also that there were fortunately no children involved. But the process was still a grind. Yes I was lucky; there were several men I knew who got mulched under, I have some incredible stories there. Also they may not be common but red-pilled female counselors do exist. I let my ex pick; she picked a woman of course, but this particular woman took me aside after… Read more »
Any social system is only as strong as the men who are willing to risk their lives to defend it, women being apt to drop their guns and surrender at the first sign of real danger. You heard it here first: White men will convert to Islam and demand Islamic divorce, where the ex-wife is put out of the family home with the clothes on her back. A few judges and lawyers will be beheaded on camera, the rest will quickly fall into line, and anyone who objects will be arrested for “Islamophobia”. White conversion to Islam solves the whole… Read more »
When I first started looking around in the then-nescient manosphere for answers about ten years ago, my thinking was that I have to figure out a way to date better quality women so that I might find a wife among them in Silicon Valley. I eventually got quite a bit better with women, but came to the conclusion that women of marriageable age don’t want to get married, and the only women who want to get married were in their early thirties. There’s really no point, especially since I had seen so many guys who had busted their ass to… Read more »
Man, I get no love from spam filters!
Saleri, I’ve written a piece on how to survive and move on from a feminist mother. Maybe it can be of some use to you: https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2017/07/15/how-to-survive-and-move-on-from-a-feminist-single-mother/ On Rollo’s piece, I entirely agree. The MRM is beyond redemption because so too is the system it hopes to repair. You don’t right an injustice by giving the other side the same unfair advantages. What you need to do is to remove the unfair advantages that now exist. But as Rollo has explained there are too many people profiting from the current system that will not allow it to be rolled back in… Read more »
In my state, it comes down to 4 things: Length of marriage Standard of living Need Ability to pay Morality does not enter into this equation. She could have been the town whore, it doesn’t matter. Costs (so far): 60k plus lawyer bill that I’m still paying on, divorce was final 4 years ago. Total of approx 100k in alimony (3 1/2 years of temporary alimony + 5 years durational). I said costs so far because she has engaged another law firm who recently contacted my lawyer. She’s going to file an alimony modification. So I have to shell out… Read more »
@I.H. this is what’s officially known as a ‘Whore Pension’ in the Manosphere now:
On one hand, you want to starve the Deep State’s money laundering marriage operation by not getting married, but on the other hand, you know that marriage used to be a stable way to raise a family. So I guess we must find a way to raise stable kids outside of marriage. Yeah, I know the courts can still come after men who aren’t married but have kids, so what’s the alternative? As Adam said, how fucked up is it that Islam of all things offers us a solution to crush feminism. @Saleri, powerful story. Tell your mother that God… Read more »
I wish this were still true. It should be true, but unfortunately the proposition is still rooted in and dependent on the stability of the marriage – which is largely domineering, authoritarian, “empowered” wives and submissive Beta husbands today. Marriage is no longer a stable way to raise children when statistically men will have those children removed from his influence and become his financial liability.
Also they may not be common but red-pilled female counselors do exist. I let my ex pick; she picked a woman of course, but this particular woman took me aside after a few sessions to let me know she saw right through the ex and it was her opinion that I was wasting my money and I should bail. I was going to ask in all seriousness if a man had ever benefited from marriage counseling, as the stories nearly all sound like he gets nothing out of it. Apparently at least one has, but the divorce happened anyway. If… Read more »
Also, what Gregor Samsa posted is correct. You have to approach the divorce process as the fight of your life. Because you are literally fighting for your freedom, your wealth, and your future earnings. The current system has the potential to enslave you to your ex wife as an indentured servant for the rest of your life.
After my 30 yr marriage I could have been sentenced to lifetime alimony. It was only because I had a good lawyer and I kept a cool clear head the I got 5 years durational alimony instead of something worse.
@ tarl regarding her angry feels trumping economic sense.
I knew a man who was growing cannabis on an industrial scale.
His wife found out he was playing around with a younger hotter model.
She called the police because in her demented fantasy he would be arrested, jailed and she could keep the Aston martins, holiday homes, boat and contents of the bank accounts 🤣🤣
Imagine her shock when she discovered that everything would be confiscated under the proceeds of crime act!!! She now lives in social housing on government support 🤣🤣
So yes feels above reals every time!
‘Marriage counseling’ is just a de facto condition precedent to the divorce filing. The lawyers advise it because the judge wants to see that the couple ‘tried to make it work.’ If one’s wife surprises one with a request for ‘marriage counseling’, there’s usually a plan in place to pull the chute within six months. A ploy I experienced was the marriage counselor ‘advised’ me that I should see her separately to address some mental health issues. Again, I just thought this was some inconvenient mid-life overhead, so, whatever, I went along. Actually, in plumbing some of my life experiences,… Read more »
Preach it BV!
Also had the same used against me experience and as I have said before the head shrinkers say I am fucked in the head becuase of xyz or say I am fucked in the head because xyz hasn’t fucked up my head
Can’t win with those fuckers and I don’t play rigged games…. Unless I rigged them
For those of us already divorced and know for damn sure not to marry again this post seems less relevant. Don’t get me wrong Rollo, it’s a good post and for those who have not married they damn sure need to read it. It should be a cold shower for guys still married. Rollo, you’ve written a ton of posts about marriage and how to not screw them up, but I can’t help but wonder if the follow to this post goes back to the basics of how to not screw it up. I’m reading the Manual of Seduction by… Read more »
As a follow-up: how many alpha or sigma male marriage counselors are out there? That would be zero. They’re going to approach any strong man in a troubled relationship with the usual resentment and distrust that they’ve had since high school, when the football star got the girls the counselor only fantasize about. There might be a female counselor who is attracted to the man in the barrel, but Sisterhood trumps all. Knowing what I know now, I would say, “No, I’m not going to marriage counseling.” “Why not?” “Because I’m not going to divorce you. If that’s what you… Read more »
I am not sure there is a big picture solution for men who want a family.
I can tell you here in NC there is no common law marriage, no pailmoney, lower child support payments for unwed fathers and they do more to enforce visitation rights for unwed fathers ( the last two help ensure higher voluntary child support payment compliance) but even then some of that shit varies a lot from county to county
Thanks for this posting Rollo. Financial rape is one thing, but parental alienation or the threat of it is far worse. Hopefully with more widespread knowledge lawmakers will begin to recognize the legitimacy of fathers as parents. The custody pendulum, used to be in late 1800’s, in fathers favor (men got custody), then it switched after feminism to be wholly in females favor, while either extreme was not ideal for kids. Kids also suffer from alienation as well as grand parents and cousins etc. Some women are mature and rationale enough to not use kids as weapons, but many are… Read more »
“That would be zero. They’re going to approach any strong man in a troubled relationship with the usual resentment and distrust that they’ve had since high school, when the football star got the girls the counselor only fantasize about”
That’s how I felt about the judges I dealt with. A bunch of dweebs who got shit on in high school getting their revenge on one of the cool kids
A big picture solution to man wanting a family is an interesting question. I want this for my girls, so I have been involved in the fathers rights movement, which advocates for shared custody. This is at least a start in resolving the negative outcomes from marriage; however, females still have the “silver bullet” of the VAWA and false allegations to thwart that.
Only social involvement and activism against misandric toxic feminism will be a long-term solution.
It’s been my experience — with everyone but especially women and children — when they say they want their ‘freedom’ or to be ‘free’ or similar, implying they’re currently under some sort of oppression, they do not mean ‘freedom of choice’ they mean ‘freedom from responsibility or consequence’ real freedom means leaving the corral and is scary; the only safety net is what you have on you men are made for this and naturally have within them the ability to take this challenge on; women and the weak only enviously see that this man gets to do whatever he wants,… Read more »
The MRM seems to get a lot of hate in this part of the sphere. There efforts might be in vein, but where else does a man getting ready to go through this meat grinder turn to? There really aren’t a lot of options.
Ton, when you say “county to county” aren’t we really talking “judge to judge”? Because what it took me forever to understand was that there isn’t, basically, any law controlling a judge who chooses to be subjective and unfair. Sure, he has guidelines, but they are so broad as to be a loaded weapon pointed at your face. The last time I was in divorce court, after nine-months of hearings, the judge did not allow my attorney to make a closing statement, and proceeded to cut my 72 hours a month of visitation to 58. That ex- was good at… Read more »
The MRM always seems to working from a position of weakness and I can’t see that is helpful to a man.
Not a fake posistion of weakness to suck someone on for the kill, but an actual effeminate, helpless weakness
That will never appeal to healthy men
Sort of true BV but here in NC the judges look at other settlements in that particular county to figure out what is typical. So if you get divorced outside of Ft Bragg, the county is extrmely hositle to men but the courts say shut your pie hole, its typical for this jurisdiction
One county over, and men do much better because the judges have to consider more reasonable cases to base their decree on making that county less hostile to men by default
Not sure I am explaining that well….. I’ll try to clarify if needs be
With respect to MRM whiny-babies, you can’t litigate in a corrupt court, which is the current situation. I think they help the other side by simultaneously diminishing the case for men, and legitimizing a corrupt system. Lately a few tradcon women have adopted the posture (when they’re not complaining about men being unwilling to Man UP!): ‘Come back! We’ll be nice this time!’ This is obviously stupid, given the external reality of extant family law. But it gets them half-way there to realizing that they got their way and control the welfare of families, children and husbands — and some… Read more »
@ pinelero That’s the underplayed component in the solution, men fighting back in a unified fashion. What I do know from my life is that there are times when a fight is necessary and right. Wishing and hoping will get one nowhere. Playing by shitty, rigged rules is a foolish gamble that only serves to strengthen broken systems. Men as a whole have lost 2 major things : 1) the ability to read other people and systems for what they are, and 2) the willpower and understanding of how and when to fight back. I have zero faith in any… Read more »
Alert: There is no marriage counselor who will benefit the relationship, neither male nor female. In some ways the males are worse. My ex had a real thing for psychology, including a degree, and every few years would develop some nebulous unhappiness and decide the marriage needed fixing. I was utterly beta, fantastic father, chore doer, appeaser, immersed in modern churchy life. We probably saw 6 or 7 counselors over the marriage (23 years) with the mix of male to female about half and half. I would take the brunt of blame and would rise to the man-up challenge in… Read more »
Ton, understood. It blew my mind when my divorce lawyer finally admitted that the window-dressing of “equitable divorce” was just window-dressing, and the judge had unilateral authority to do what he wanted “in the best interest of the child.” (This was Virginia.) My lawyer worked the judges as much as the fact. He told me I would have a hard time in trial #6 because the judge was an Irish Catholic, raised by his mother, who could not conceive of a mother being at fault absent evident physical abuse — or, what we call around here, a white knight whose… Read more »
From Positive Masculinity “What makes the Beta the Beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility.”
His demise is actualized by who he allows to establish the precepts that define his civility. A man who relinquishes his control over how his own civility is defined, self manifests gross personal weakness in doing so. Simultaneously, he effectively invites opportunists, scavengers and thieves to plunder him.
Glad you understood BV. Having one of those TBI’s are a bitch spells and I can feel the Swiss cheese deal going on with my thinking and recall
Excellent post, Rollo. Re MRAs — yes, they’re pointless for the most part. They have achieved a few “successes” here and there in terms of shared parenting (which has the impact in most states of lowering CS payments dramatically), but it’s very incremental. Overall their impact on the system is minimal, because the underlying reasons for the system remain intact and are not being addressed by the MRA groups. Re Counseling — My counselor (female) was not as bad as most, as when she learned of the affair my ex started during the counseling that my ex had requested to… Read more »
LOL then you don’t know much about islam
@Rollo, do you know of any studies done that document the amount of money the divorce court systems bring in per year? I’d love to see how the red pill (if at all) is decreasing the amounts the courts take in because dudes all over the country are avoiding knocking chicks up and avoiding marriage.
It’s pretty well covered in the Divorce Incorporated documentary.
The betas first mistake is failing to realize that those who proactively define his civility for him are not doing so in his best interest. They are doing so in their best interest at his loss and most typically with just enough false promise of reward to keep him fooled. This intrigue is centered around people “trespassing against one another”. There are a few options to deal with trespassers. One is to suck it up and forgive and forget. Another is to be aware and act in such a way that you effectively project a stern warning to them. Yet… Read more »
I was only able to survive divorce by accepting that I would lose and instead of spending time trying to win, started early figuring out how to recover. My divorce was a real shit show circus because my ex was high conflict cluster b, which I figured out promptly, again thanks to Rollo and Dalrock and other men in the same boat. My ex actually relished in the whole process as I was slowly run through the grinder and the process lasted a year and a half, despite my every effort to expedite and actually try to warn her of… Read more »
@donegoner, great comments. I could read your story all day. By all means, tell us more of your recovery journey.
Is every human life sacred? To who?
Lost the divorce
Won the post divorce
Reckon that’s how it goes for the most of men
As a side note, the disbursements in my divorce were so uneven for one main reason. In my blue pill beta state, I decided to be a conscientious objector to the divorce and stand on some moral high ground against the whole sordid thing. In the early months I disregarded all of the papers I was served, missed all of the court dates, declared I had done no crime so would not appear. It was really theatrical and noble and impressed exactly nobody. The judge hated me for it and threatened incarceration every time I later appeared. My own lawyer… Read more »
@dongoner, this is the money line from you:
Spend your time planning the recovery. Watch every little thing they do so it won’t take you by surprise, but don ‘t think you can avert it, you can only brace for it. Picture a life for yourself on the other side and get to work right now. Use the image of that life to carry you through the dark times.
There’s enough in this paragraph to start a blog around.
Thanks. Don’t tempt me…
…but if there is anything specific I can shed light on, I’m here. That goes for all me brothers.
The old set of books vs the new set of books…. This is true and the connections are accurate. However, the analogy and the observations it relates to are descriptive of a sector of the total and window in time, a segment (and other segments) of history. There is only one “book” with one simple “rule” that proves to be true universal. This universal book has but one chapter with one simple four word rule and it is primordial and NEVER broken. EAT OR BE EATEN. For all the days of a man’s life this rule applies to him. Each… Read more »
Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted. How you fight the system is up to the individual man, their time, desire, and resources. Me, I don’t like the idea of just sitting by watching it all fall apart. It’s a popular refrain in the manosphere to be passive and say that’s just the way it is and watch the decline. To me that’s unhealthy and not acceptable as it can be better. Men are builders not passive watchers. Fathers rights groups are not MRA groups. Typically they are fathers who come into the group after a divorce and… Read more »
I’ve thought for some time that if it became unavoidable the solution for me may be to convert to Islam.
Sharia is a Beta solution to lack of Alpha…
1. Vet. Vet Vet Vet. Choose wisely. Very few divorce bombs go off without a lot of warning signs showing even before marriage. Lots of friend and family advice unheeded as well.
2. Have hand, then never lose it.
3. Read Rollo objectively.
@Sentient, I’ve noticed that Muslims have little ability to take criticism without becoming unhinged gamma-like creatures. For all their ability to fight feminism, they can’t deal with masculine criticism well.
In the context of my response it is not necessary.
@pinelero It is true that there are many ways to stand against the system. I admire you clearly finding your identity as a builder and agent of change through TFRM. I’m not a joiner and don’t identify that way. I don’t think anybody here is passive and even though some watch it fall apart, they are not “sitting by” as they do so. I like to picture holding my arms out in front and touching my fingertips and making a circle. I make my world about that big as far as who I can genuinely hold, protect, serve, help ACTIVELY… Read more »
I’ve never seen 1 divorce yet that ” came out of nowhere “.
I have seen many that were mostly inevitable due to a lack of vetting and no frame.
The minority of Muslim wolves get a majority of the press, but the majority of Muslims are rabbits. This doesn’t mean that they can’t do harm, just try to pick up a rabbit who objects, but they are rabbits nonetheless.
The ability of Muslim men to restrict feminism is vastly overblown in the Anglo manosphere and even within traditionalism women are not without power. Many, many Muslim women play the game in public, but totally domineer their rabbit men in the home.
I live in a Canadian province with no fault divorce. Sounds great, but then everything just goes into the legal separation agreement, where the money gets fought over. Ex-wife went after everything I had built up. Basically, what’s hers is hers, and what’s mine is hers. For example, I’m legally allowed to keep an inheritance out of the agreement, but she went after that money anyway. What is blatantly unfair to me, she gets a cut of my future income indefinitely. She retired early, has a good pension, but for the state, that’s still not enough to keep her in… Read more »
“Watch every little thing they do so it won’t take you by surprise, but don ‘t think you can avert it, you can only brace for it. Picture a life for yourself on the other side and get to work right now. Use the image of that life to carry you through the dark times. You can do it.”
That’s so profoundly true
Wondering how this came to be pros/cons/dissertation/expose on mooslems. One atheist admittedly willing to lie to society in order to avoid his feminist frustrations? Is it cautionary pleading? Is somebody actually trying to save him in a spiritual sense? Wouldn’t best response be “that sounds stupid” and call it a day?
Wondering how this came to be pros/cons/dissertation/expose on mooslems.
There is a growing adoration of ‘Sharia” or ‘White Sharia” in the Sphere… exchanging one set of problems for another.
This is as much a plea to bring back conventional Masculinity as much as it is a rant against Trump.
Um… I defer to myself… that sounds stupid. Thanks for clarity on that, Sentient.
I’ve hung out by two mosques today, so far. What you see on the tin is not necessarily what you’ll get when you open it up.
The same goes as well for deeply Conservative (with Fascism added for extra social control) Catholic society.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
Western sissies are a dying breed….
@John “What I’ve learned from the experience is to be strong, have no positive feelings towards the ex (she won’t have any towards you)” This is truth. This was one of the biggest realizations that made me who I am today, but too late to have impact on the divorce proceedings. I was still trying to be reasonable and fair and my lawyer said, “You still want to be seen as noble and good to these people. They think you are a loser and you are not going to change that. Do you want to be a loser AND a… Read more »
I’ve never seen 1 divorce yet that ” came out of nowhere “.
I have seen many that were mostly inevitable due to a lack of vetting and no frame.
Hey since I know you are a fan…
Heard the one about the pimp who goes to marriage counseling?
OK, what about the one who hired this lawyer to reduce his alimony?
Not that one?
Damn – heard the one about the pimp crying on the guy’s shoulder at the bar about how he can’t see his kids this weekend?
Sheeet. None of those?
To get married: 1. Demand a dowry from the wife’s family. 2. Combine it with your savings and put into Nevada irrevocable asset protected trust in just your name. 3. Get pre-nup (are still weak now a days). 4. Rent a small place below your means (avoid house asset that can be lost). 5. Wife agrees to provide monthly gift to husband that goes into protected trust in his name. The trust should be setup to pay for alimony / child support but not to be calculated into any computation. If the payouts are used in any divorce calculation then… Read more »
Thanks kfg. Guys get fooled daily by the extreme and can’t see the norm.
“The same goes as well for deeply Conservative (with Fascism added for extra social control) Catholic society.”
If your going to tell the truth make them laught otherwise they will kill you.
I’ve been counseling a friend over the past 6 months. He’s on the sausage side of the meat grinder now but is still, understandably, on that precarious ground that is the occupied territory of post-divorce financial obligation and performance-contingent part-time parenting. The notion of “winning” in divorce is a red herring, perhaps dangled by the lawyer (like oncologists they need you to believe you can beat it) but also part of male competitive nature. So it is indeed important to frame it as a rigged game in which winning is not possible, but also important to not let that fact… Read more »
Heard the one about the pimp whose bitch was so fat she sat on a cadillac and turned it into a smart car?
re Razorwire This is a moving submission and your observations are excellent. I am capable of bias through personal experience and blind to some of the realities that I was able to work around with help. It may be disconnected for me to say I rebuilt better, stronger, faster ($6m-man) because I did have some money. “bleeding out on the field” is a very true sentiment because it is easy to go to that place if unchecked. Also true is the very strong desire to somehow force a reconciliation through conceding everything for the sake of that picture of family,… Read more »
Great post Rollo. I’ve been reading TRM for about a year and a half now and TRP as well. The knowledge I have obtained from here has been an immense help in terms of dealing with my 2nd divorce. In fact, I just fired my attorney because I finally figured out that I have nothing to gain from using his services anymore. Child support is set, my house was sold and equity was split equally. My ex had to waive spousal support because I proved that she is living with the dude she cheated on me with. Divorce is seriously… Read more »
@Dan, Donegoner and others,
I’m curious if after the red pill and the change in your behaviors if you’ve noticed any change in how you perceive your exs perceiving you. I’m wondering if any of these bitches sense the switch and give off vibes revealing this. Not that it matters. Just curious about this kind of shit.
I honestly don’t know how some of these attorneys live with the fact that they just bill ridiculous amounts of hours to represent a man…
What’s the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
A bad lawyer can let a case drag out for several years. A good lawyer can make it last even
How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
“How many can you afford?”
A small town that can’t support one lawyer can sure support two…
this topic is indeed dark and I’ve wept more than once reading some of the comments…. this is where I am at right now myself in the divorce machinations and some of the comments could be my story too
but please please continue putting out all your stories and comments, I need these right now so much and I’m surely not the only one
thanks to all
Yeah, it’s like cancer, you don’t win. Parental alienation is the shit that caused the most problems. When I put my foot down on no additional support and would not agree to ridiculous crap is when she came at me with the best weapon she had: my two children. My daughter made it through to eventually realize what a manipulative bitch her mother was/is. The day after she graduated HS and was emancipated she moved back in with me full time. Thankfully in the past year or so the red pill has been enormously helpful for me in repairing things… Read more »
Again you don’t understand much about islam
When hajjis take over an area they won’t allow many of the conquered to convert. They want to keep everyone on that second class status deal so they can exploit the folks they just conquered. Conversion would limit the exploitation and they don’t really have the masculine frame in their personal interact with women you think they have. They have no frame, they fear women but yet let women run the home front via stealth mode
@newlyaloof It’s hard to tell because she is BPD and therefore all over the place. I do know that most of her friends outwardly and openly project contempt toward me, even to their kids, who still are around my kids and I hear things. I have so immersed my younger sons in red pill thinking that they tell me about it and laugh. I hear quite another story from one insider, an unfortunate friend going through a divorce right now from a recently outed cheating whore who are both part of the old circle of friends. He has been maligned… Read more »
@ dr zipper
So very sorry. I assure you that there are people who genuinely care and that there is a hope and a future for you.
“A small town that can’t support one lawyer can sure support two…”
As I heard it, from a lawyer:
If a small town has one lawyer, he rides a bicycle. If it has two lawyers, they both drive Mercedes.
The first thing your divorce lawyer will do is have you list all of your assets under the guise of working a strategy with you when really he is setting a goal for what percentage of that he can get. Your divorce lawyer is not your advocate or ally. Know this! It is a fucking meat grinder and the assets you will watch slip away from yourself and your children is beyond sickening and your ex will not care, will not even acknowledge it.
Ps…. you got to Have an exit plan if you marry. Marraige is combat by another name and no matter how tight your shit, you can still loose a fight. You must have an exit plan because unlike combat there isnt a Spector in over watch to bail your ass out. No 64’s, no medevac, no indirect fire support…. not Jack shit. Hide cash, have a second passport and what not. What let me semi bounce back quickly is my ex wife didn’t want my dumb coin collection…. never dawned on her I had like 7k USD in junk sliver… Read more »
If a small town has one lawyer, he rides a bicycle. If it has two lawyers, they both drive Mercedes.
And our federal government has several hundred.
After all, what’s the point of conquering people if you don’t get to dominate them and take their stuff?
My sainted brother, who helped me through as you did your friend, declared, “fuck that, that bitch might die!”
LOL I have never been on time with alimony or child support payments. Fuck that cunt. Now here life is so fucked up she doesn’t have a bank account or a permanent address and I haven’t paid alimony in over a year simply because she doesn’t have the money to hire a lawyer
My crazy ass ex and her attorney ordered deposition. Outrageous. My attorney declared that since they deposed me we had to depose her. Combined fees $3400 plus transcripts $1600 a very convenient calculable $5000. Never mentioned in court or ever brought up again. They asked for ludicrous number of documents and information in discovery and I provided all of it over a full week of copying and labeling literally thousands of documents including all receipts and records. Anytime thereafter they would always contact my attorney for some information and he would ask me and I would reply, “I furnished that… Read more »
I have been…. experience the religion of peace since the late 80’s so I ain’t likely to fall for their bullshit.
My 1st hajji related mission as a Ranger and my last hajji related mission near on 30 years later as a contractor was in the same semi failed moslem nation state