Blue Pill Alphas

beta-white-knight-101_o_5320043

A comment from Softek gets us started today:

My friend was telling me the other night how seeing multiple women “isn’t worth it.”

I’ve heard that more than once from more than one of my friends.

And how “living with the guilt and shame” and “hating themselves” was destroying their lives….

Very hard schema to break out of when it’s been imprinted on you. My own father self-proclaims to be “in favor of the damsels in distress,” including his recent, unquestionable defense of my friend’s mom, who divorced his dad after 35 years of marriage.

My dad didn’t even question her motives for a second and after she spent the evening hanging out with my mom and him, and told them the supposed “real” reasons she got a divorce, my dad automatically cut contact with the guy and again proclaimed his belief that men should protect all “damsels in distress.”

He’s even taken shots at me when my girlfriend’s been over, clearly siding with her and telling her things like “Keep him in line” and “Straighten him out” and calling me an idiot and scolding me if I don’t pull her chair out for her or put her coat on for her when she stands up.

No doubt, my self sabotaging of a clear opening for a hookup with an HB8 23 year old has been influenced by all of this. I didn’t realize how Beta I was until I actually got into a relationship.

I didn’t even know I HAD these programs because I was incel before, and had a couple one night stands that never developed into anything more. I also didn’t even know my DAD had these programs until he started doing shit like actually scolding me in front of my girlfriend and instructing her to “train me” and things like that.

To be honest I was kind of in shock that my own father would think like that. It felt like he was turning on me and it pissed me off. Even in a small way, to let his Blue Pill conditioning get in the way of his relationship with his own son — that really got to me, and not in a good way. I felt like my dad is supposed to be on my side, and to see him treating her better than he treats me and having conversations with her and helping her work out her finances and giving her career advice and all that while he won’t even give me the time of day….

….simply, it’s eye-opening. It’s tough to truly go Red Pill when everyone around you, including your own father/family members/friends are Blue Pill, and especially when they’re an active, regular part of your life, not just a figment of your imagination.

But there is no other way.

Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic. Softek’s father’s reflexive responses are endemic of men who are Alpha White Knights. Their reactions are behaviorally Alpha, but their reasoning is founded in their investments in Blue Pill conditioning. The usual schema revolve around an attempt to display higher value by identifying with and qualifying for women whom they presuppose have default authority and correctness above men in general.

This then manifests as an exaggerated AMOGing of any guy who would not affirm his investments in that Blue Pill ego-investment. So you get a guy who blusters like Softek’s Dad at Red Pill awareness – it’s both an opportunity to prove value as a White Knight and a resistance against any truths that would challenge his Blue Pill ego.

In my own life I’ve known several men who anyone in the ‘sphere would objectively call Alpha. Their default is to action, dominance, authority and control of whatever life puts in front of them. They handle their shit, they own their business ventures, they have all the Dark Triad traits you might expect from a guy like this – but put them in a social setting with a girl and they go as Beta as any Blue Pill guy you’ll ever know. Their Blue Pill conditioning predisposes them to compartmentalize this aspect of their personality to effectively put their dominant personality to the use of the Feminine Imperative.

Dangerous White Knights

Maybe I’m the only guy who watched both seasons of Daredevil on Netflix, but if you watch the first season where they go into the origin and character of Wilson Fisk (Kingpin) this is exactly the type of guy I’m talking about. Wildly Alpha, wildly unstable, but still in control of his empire. Put a woman in his life and he transitions all of that Alpha energy to essentially worshiping that woman. In fact, this prioritizing of women above his own interests is the motivation for his empire building. These are the Alpha White Knights who channel that Alpha energy to making his Blue Pill idealisms a reality for any woman who fits his ideal.

And when that Blue Pill ideal reveals itself to be a fantasy – or God forbid, a Red Pill aware guy should take this fantasy away from him intentionally or not – you will see him self destruct, and likely take either that woman, that Red Pill guy, or both along with him.

That’s one type of Blue Pill Alpha. Another is the guy who is Alpha in one context, but Beta in another. These are the guys I describe when I talk about my military friends who’ve faced live ammo being fired at them by people intent on killing them who hold up like nails and get their job done while commanding other men. Put them in a domestic situation or a position where they have to fall back on their Blue Pill conditioning in dealing with women and they’ll defer automatically to the Frame of their wives without a thought. When their wives up and leave them, these are some of the first men to swallow a bullet by their own hand.

Again, this is an Alpha who’s never been awakened to his Blue Pill conditioning. Say even one marginally critical word about women in general and they’re the first in line to kick your ass. But they’re also the most likely to self destruct when their Blue Pill idealism is challenged or crushed.

A lot gets made about the status of ‘Paper Alphas’, but I’m beginning to think term is a bit in error. I’m dropping this here today because I think there’s a misunderstanding about how Alpha energy is channeled with respect to a guy being Red Pill aware, and a guy who is still plugged into the feminine-primary Matrix and at the mercy of how women (and other men) will exploit his Blue Pill ego-investments. In the manosphere we tend to conflate Alpha with Red Pill, but as I always say, Alpha is a mindset and not representative of whether that man is in fact ‘woke’ to his conditions and manipulations.

When I watched how the Marvel writers handled the character of Wilson Fisk I got chills because I have personally counseled Blue Pill, but predominantly Alpha, guys who’ve stabbed the new boyfriends of their ex-girlfriends because he was perceived as the catalyst to the destruction of his Blue Pill ideal – union with his ONEitis girlfriend.

I’m emphasizing this because I think it’s important for Red Pill aware men to understand the dangers of being perceived as the antithesis of these men’s ego-investments in Blue Pill idealism. This may take the form of him just despising you for revealing uncomfortable truths to him with your own presence and lifestyle, or it may be him pinning his failures to consolidate his Blue Pill ideals to you and wanting to eliminate both you and the truth you represent.

I’m sorry if this is a bit sobering, but it needs to be said. As most readers know, I consider Alpha and Beta abstract terms; they are placeholders for concepts, thus, it is entirely possible for a largely Alpha man to be thoroughly invested in his Blue Pill conditioning. Likewise, it is also possible for more Beta men to be some of the most Red Pill aware men you’re likely to meet. It’s when a Beta man is ego-invested in the Blue Pill that he’s most to be pitied, while a Red Pill aware Alpha is likely to be the most celebrated. But that’s not to say the Red Pill and Alpha, or the Blue Pill and Beta are mutually exclusive concepts.

Is Provisioning Inherently a Characteristic of a Beta Mindset?

In this week’s post the proposition came up that any provisioning was inherently a Beta trait. I’ve read this before and not just on my blog, but also coming from both the MGTOW and the PUA sides of the fence. The idea is that any form of monogamy and/or provisioning for an LTR girlfriend (and I would count a live-in arrangement as provisioning), a wife and any kids (prospectively) is itself evidence of a Beta mindset.

I think the problem with this presumption rests in defining what the act of provisioning means both an Alpha and a Beta mindset. For both, this depends on their approach to their primary sexual strategies and reconciling it with the eventual necessity of his own parental investment in raising children, and/or maintaining relational Frame (or not) within a monogamy that at least promotes the wellbeing of any children.

As a reference here, I’m going to link Myth of the Good Guy to give a bit of perspective in this.

While it’s true that lower SMV men generally, necessarily, opt for a sexual strategy of primary investment in one mate (via provisioning) and higher SMV men can afford a sexual strategy of lower investment while seeking more sexual opportunities, those strategies are not necessarily reflective of each man’s mindset. As I mentioned in the beginning here, it is entirely possible for a subjectively Alpha man to subscribe to a Blue Pill conditioned mindset and vice versa for Beta men becoming Red Pill aware.

So yes, provisioning can be Beta if that provisioning (and what it took to achieve it) is the result of an effort to secure the sustained sexual interests of a single woman, as motivated by his perceived necessity to invest himself as I mentioned above for a low SMV man. However, if you have a high SMV guy who’s provisioning capacity is the byproduct of his Alpha mindset (or nature if you prefer) and not the result of his sexual strategy to build it to invest in any single woman, is that guy’s provisioning inherently a Beta characteristic?

We’ve had an interesting discussion about this in the last comment thread, and In the interests of full disclosure here, I’m still on the fence about this concept. I’ll have a forthcoming post about mindset soon.

Provisioning is certainly a value added aspect to a guy who a woman sees as an Alpha sex prospect already, and not a necessary a prerequisite for fucking him, but it’s not a disadvantage (being Beta) if that Alpha guy also has means, affluence, status, looks, etc. That said, and I’ve related this before, some of the most memorable sex experiences I’ve ever had were when I was an unemployed semi-pro musician in the late 80s-early 90s with almost zero means, but was somehow able to bang over 40 women then.

Provisioning is not a prerequisite for any man with Game, but is it inherently Beta? Possibly, when a guy has the Blue Pill mindset that makes him believe in the Relational Equity fallacy and he subscribes to the Blue Pill conditioned idea that he’s inherently lower SMV than ANY woman (like Softek’s Dad), thus he must improve his odds of successfully breeding by being a “good provider”. And as I, and anyone in the manosphere, will relate this old books providerhood is fast becoming an obsolete sexual strategy for Beta men.

This is, I think, the hesitation that most guys wanting to avoid the stink of ‘Beta Provider’ will argue for. But is a nominally Alpha guy, who has excess means and resources being “Beta” by providing for his wife & family? If that man’s dominant personality is ‘Alpha’ does this predispose women (or his wife) to rationalize his provisioning as an Alpha trait, or is it just an endearing (positive), comforting Beta trait / behavior that solidifies her attraction (if not arousal) to him?

I don’t think that the act of provisioning itself is inherently Beta or Alpha, rather it’s the mindset and status of that guy that makes it so. What do we call a an Alpha with ample means who refuses to adequately provide for his wife and/or kids? What do we call a Beta who’s based his life and marriage on his capacity to provide once he’s lost his job? Why do women statistically look down on men who don’t provide in equal or greater measure to their own contributions? Despite all the equalist boilerplate beliefs to the contrary, why do women feel little or no attraction to a non-provisioning house-husband? If provisioning were a net Beta trait why is its absence a source of decreased attraction for men?

I should also add that this perception of whether a man is Alpha or Beta in his provisioning is subjective to whatever phase of maturity a woman find herself in, and is modified by her own necessitousness – which, as has been argued in the ‘sphere ad infinitum, has become increasingly less dependent on men. It’s no coincidence that back in the early 90s for me, the women I was banging were largely girls in their SMV peak years (21-24) or they we’re the occasional cougars of the time who were already divorced and still reasonably attractive enough to pass the boner test for me. My capacity to provision for either of these demographic of women made little difference to my sex appeal, but for different reasons.

Roissy even covers this aspect of women’s sexual prioritization in The Difficulty of Gaming Women by Age Bracket:

31 to 34 year olds

In some ways, women in the 31-34 age range are the toughest broads to game. (By “toughest”, it is meant “most time consuming”.) It’s counterintuitive, yes, but there are factors at work besides her declining beauty which mitigate against the easy, quick lay. For one, it is obviously harder to meet single 31-34 year old women than it is to meet single younger women. Marriage is still a pussy-limiting force to contend with for the inveterate womanizer, but Chateau apprentices are hard at work battling the scourge of mating market disturbances caused by the grinding and churning of the marriage machine.

But the bigger reason 31-34 year olds are harder to game than any other age group of women has to do with the wicked nexus of entitlement and self-preservation that occurs at this age in women. When you combine a disproportionate sense of entitlement fueled by years of feminism, steady paychecks and promotions, and cheerleading gay boyfriends with suspicions of every man’s motives and a terrible anxiety of being used for a sexual fling sans marriage proposal, you get a venom-spitting malevolent demoness on guard against anything she might perceive as less than total subjugation to her craving for incessant flattery and princess pedestaling.

Note that Chateau guests aren’t necessarily complaining. A harder-to-game 33 year old is kind of like getting bumped down from a Honda Civic rental but driving off the lot with the consolation prize of a Ferrari.

Listen to any man who is good with women and they will tell you the same thing:

“I have an easier time bedding and dating 23 year olds than I do 33 year olds.”

While I do concur with the assessment about women’s exaggerated sense of entitlement, I would also argue that this difficulty is a result of women’s prioritizing long-term security (emotional and provisional) as part of their sexual strategy reprioritizations that come in the wake of their Epiphany Phase. Ergo, this would explain the ease in gaming women pre and post Epiphany Phase. Provisioning and long term security are low sexual priorities for these demographics of women.

But does that make a capacity for provisioning inherently a Beta trait? I think it’s easy to misconstrue that capacity as Beta, because provisioning is a high-value attribute that is expected from Beta men according to their own sexual strategy. Provisioning is associated with Betas because it is integral to their sexual strategy, and also part of the Blue Pill plan for which women are hoping to fulfill at a point in their maturity when they are subjectively at their most necessitous.

What do you think?

5 2 votes
Article Rating

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

Speak your mind

722 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

Executing the program.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Scray Alpha is attractive to women… alpha creates tingles… when your actions are deemed alpha they create tingles… Alpha is something dynamic, passionate and authentic. When your actions reflect that state, they are attractive to the Arbiter. When actions don’t reflect that state they are not attractive… this is why you have variability in result with actions that you think are alpha not working… (usual cause “incongruence”, i.e. inauthentic, or bad “subcomms”)… and why one can take actions that you perceive as beta (from some list?) and they can be perceived as alpha… When actions are ultimately rooted in fear… Read more »

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@kfg

I have a quote for you:

“Its not you, its them. Always.”

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Andy There’s always a mindset involved. Like Hank’s mindset might be. “I have this sweet routine mapped out with a giant flow chart of possible shit that could happen and there’s a reasonable chance the girl will have a good reaction and I’ll get laid.” While Sentient’s mindset is probably something like: “I’m awesome. I’m going to do what I think is awesome, and chicks are going to love me.” when you view game as understanding and speaking the language of female seduction (verbal and physical) and separate that from the alpha/beta thing, you will have a better mindset. You… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“usual cause “incongruence”, i.e. inauthentic, or bad “subcomms” ”

Most of the subtle tells that most men can’t even see, most women can see them.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Oh and my mindset is “I’m awesome… I’m going to do what I want when I want. Chicks love me. AND I am going to speak their language…

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

There seems to be this weird notion afoot that guys learning game should get from incompetence to unconscious competence WITHOUT ever going through conscious competence. Or is it that some people dont consider it (social skills, flirting, logistics) a skill?

scray
scray
4 years ago

@kfg That may be your problem The ability to say ‘the emperor has no clothes’ is never a problem. Thus far, everything you and the others have brought up has already been brought up and anticipated by me (and the other PUAs) way way way long ago. @sentient Alpha is something dynamic, passionate and authentic. Ya, and what is that? It’s a totally subjective standard you’re trying to use. Which lol, that’s fine, if the arbiter is totally subjective, then NOW you have to explain why and how game can even work. Unless, of course, several externals are simply OBJECTIVELY… Read more »

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

HABD already talked about it but it was the end of last thread so it was probably missed:

https://therationalmale.com/2016/10/31/smv-and-the-aging-process/comment-page-8/#comment-177247

Softek
Softek
4 years ago

@ Rollo re: Owen and Mindset vs. PUA tactics Reminds me of Faster EFT. The idea is that by addressing and *re-framing* (i.e. changing) memories, and the emotions attached to them, you can re-program your behavior without actually re-programming it. Example: Tapping on the idea, “I’m not good with women. I can’t get laid.” You ask yourself, “How do you know ______?” “How do you know you’re not good with women and that you can’t get laid?” *Inevitably,* memories you have inside you will — WITHOUT TRYING — start to pop up. Memories that support these beliefs will start showing… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Man 1:
A + B + C = D

Man 2:
(A + B) + C =D

Man 3:
A + (B + C) = D

Man 4:
((A + B) + C) = D

Question:
Which man is “right”? Which man is “wrong”?

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
4 years ago

@ Andy, sentient I guess I see if like this; If you are a Hank holiday PUA type you are living your life in a REACTION to the people/stimuli around you,scripting routines and analysing possible responses and coming up with countermeasures to try and put the odds of a good interaction in your favour. I don’t see how you can do this and be your own mental point of origin. If like Sentient you have a solid internalised alpha mindset and good understanding of game the opposite is true, you are controlling the interraction and people are reacting to you.… Read more »

Andy
Andy
4 years ago

“I don’t see how you can do this and be your own mental point of origin.”

Fake it till you make it. Till You Make It! Jesus. I’m pretty sure that to be a natural your deductive skills need to be severely retarded.

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@playdontpay

How should hank go about getting the solid internalized alpha mindset?

Softek
Softek
4 years ago

tl;dr: If you are feeling bad about something, do X, and you will get Y. What I do is tap. If you feel bad, sit down with yourself, ask yourself how you know you’re feeling bad, and then address the memories and emotions that come up. And don’t stop until you change them to a positive. It is a specific skill set that is easy to use and is also very straightforward. If Game is a way to make women perceive you as Alpha, then Mindset is a way to make you perceive yourself as Alpha. The reason I keep… Read more »

AJ
AJ
4 years ago

Beta Game is still game. Better than no game.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Andy
. I’m pretty sure that to be a natural your deductive skills need to be severely retarded.

Nah, although it looks that way. I know a man with perfect pitch. He really doesn’t understand how anyone could sing off key – “Just hit the note! Unless it’s out of your range, just sing it! It’s easy to hear the right note, just hit it!”.

The rest of us take a few music lessons here and there to hit that note. Some people are tone deaf and never hit the note.

But yeah, it does look that way sometimes.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

In music “perfect” does not mean “flawless.” It means “absolute,” as opposed to “relative.”

A person who hits a given note, or a note an interval away from a given note, is using relative pitch. If they’re a bit off key it’s a precision issue, but still relative pitch.

A person with perfect pitch can hit a specific note without a reference. And they might still lack precision and be a bit off key.

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
4 years ago

@ Rollo Just re-read the dancing monkey essay now I know where I got the term from. I was interested in the “who are you really doing this for?” Question. If the answer is to attract women then are you still just a dancing monkey? Myself I have undertaken the path of red pill improvement as the only logical response to seeing the truth about the true nature of women, the pervasiveness of the FI and femenist agenda. Blue pill mindset and beliefs are not in sync with the reality of how things actually are in the world around us… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago
Ian
Ian
4 years ago

I’ve seen this a few of my friends, who claim to be alpha on the surface (body language, vocal tonality, etc) but as soon as they fuck a girl, they fall back into their beta world and experience severe one-itis.

Thanks Rollo for writing another great post and for doing the world you do. You’ve saved me from years of depression.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Scray Ya, and what is that? It’s a totally subjective standard you’re trying to use. Which lol, that’s fine, if the arbiter is totally subjective, then NOW you have to explain why and how game can even work. If the Arbiter were not subjective, you would get the same results every time and there would be no need for calibration… much less artistry… P U Artist Unless, of course, several externals are simply OBJECTIVELY alpha traits They are only considered “objectively” alpha traits when they are executed a certain way… And no, no one is doing actions that are beta… Read more »

scray
scray
4 years ago

@sentient If the Arbiter were not subjective, you would get the same results every time and there would be no need for calibration… much less artistry… P U Artist wrong lol calibration isn’t about what is or is not alpha and beta it’s more about her level of social conditioning and attitudes toward casual sex and so how much alpha can you show before her ASD spikes? how much beta can you show before attraction dies? like I said, you guys are just revealing massive gaps in your understanding of game tech, which is why you come up with these… Read more »

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

“just improving my social intelligence by approaching and being more proactive socially ”

That is what the PUA guys are doing too. PUA v. Game is splitting hairs.

You should “obtain” a copy of Julien’s Tengame. It is really interesting. He is big on congruence.

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

@ “C” “It basically means you were driven momentarily insane by her infidelity. Which spells oneitis and emotional dependence. It also means you’d lost value in here eyes which allowed it to happen in the first place.” Stabbing someone for fucking your exgirlfriend isn’t alpha? Your response reflects a greater concern to conform with social conventions than instinct. Stabbing someone isn’t politically correct is it? And it is against the law precisely because it is what happened before law. The law was created to enforce equanimity of opportunity and survival due to the fact we are NOT equal. The most… Read more »

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

Hank Holiday’s reports and Yareally’s comments are super valuable to me. I like the vulnerability and honesty.

Lots of times the only way to be good at something is to be bad at something and get better.

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

@Not Born This Morning

don’t stab anybody dude

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

He is big on congruence.

And Todd / Max / Tyler (and others) are big on “natural game”…

http://www.rsdnation.com/node/508795

Just sit back, relax and reward the girl for “correct” answers and discipline her for “bad” answers. JUST LIKE HOW SHE WOULD DO TO YOU IF YOU WERE A CHODE!

Interesting… kind of sounds like a conversation taking place in a strange language?

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Stabbing someone for fucking your exgirlfriend isn’t alpha?

What about stabbing someone for stealing your cow?

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

“As a big in shape guy 6ft 1 and 235 @18% BF.”

step 1- be 6ft 1
step 2- lift at the gym until you are 235 @18% BF

not busting on step 2 but you lost me at step 1

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago
Playdontpay
Playdontpay
4 years ago

@ mr T For Hank I have suggested combat sport as a good starting point. Also put the work in the gym obviously. Having a strong body and the skills/fighting experience to know that you can handle yourself in almost any situation means that it’s almost impossible not to develop a somewhat alpha mindset. The rest of it can be learned through reading and implementing the concepts taught here on TRM and other sites like illimitable men. When you see the truth layed out before you how could you not instinctively want to reprogram your mindset to better fit with… Read more »

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

” I automatically get more respect from people as a default, most people recognise the hard work and discipline that goes into building and maintaining a good physique.” People definitely dont recognise the hard work. At best other lifters may. The responses are either hardwired for people (how to treat someone who can easily harm me) or its social conditioning telling them they can expect certain behavior from muscular guys so they better treat him with respect then (fear). Regarding the respect. You are probably subcommunicating all kinds of high value so people treat you like a high value guy.… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

Someone once said, “Most men live lives of quiet desperation” because most frustrate near the edge of despair or rage behind a cage of niceties and made up rules. This one price paid for civilization.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

In music “perfect” does not mean “flawless.” It means “absolute,” as opposed to “relative.”

If I point to the moon with my finger, will you keep on telling me what my finger looks like?

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago
kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@sfer:

A lot of people got stabbed during the Trojan war. It didn’t happen because Meneleus had onitis for Helen. It happened because Paris used his status as a guest in Meneleus’s house to steal his prize cow.

@Mr. T:

The header photo has been criticised for featuring a man who is obviously gay, and thus doesn’t seem to fit the article.

Why do people identify this man, adopting a completely neutral pose, as gay?

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

lifting is great. Hank should definitely do that if he isn’t already.

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

Lifting is transforming, not “validation hunting” and the results are significantly positive in a multitude of ways.

lolakos
lolakos
4 years ago

@rollo Keep in mind Alpha=F@cks a lot of women If he submit to female imperative means, he has to ask even for a kiss and we all know from Pua’s it doesn’t work like that. There no blue pill alpha from my experience, i can say 100% are guys who know what are they doing because i have some friends who are blue pill alphas and they told me all of them that they use “Law 12” which discovered from trial and error, they are just players. If someone is honestly blue pill alpha he is going to end sexless… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ Playdontpay “..I’m not one of them, I couldn’t pull it off, my personality wouldn’t allow me to. If I was in some club/pulling all this PUA bullshit I wouldn’t be enjoying myself as its not congruent with my personality so it would come off as forced/try hard (wich it is) and probably wouldn’t work anyway. ” Interesting thing is, after learning about the pua lifestyle and abbreviations and what-not, and after YaReally breaking stuff down to me and others here and there, and watching rsd vids, I went out and approached/talked to a bunch of chicks with my new… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

Stabbing is alpha regardless of context.

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

“What I see him doing is countless approaches (commendable it takes balls) but with no positive results ( he has admitted on here to being incel ).” You cant get good at pulling and isolating until youre good at opening and everything else thats before. Everytime he will get further and further in the interaction (on average). Naturally he will first get good at opening. Then the next thing, then the next thing, … , then pulling. It takes time though. “From all the FR’s he posts on here he is putting in more effort than most but with zero… Read more »

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@kfg

Context?

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

” People definitely dont recognise the hard work. At best other lifters may. The responses are either hardwired for people (how to treat someone who can easily harm me) or its social conditioning telling them they can expect certain behavior from muscular guys so they better treat him with respect then (fear).”

You obviously haven’t heard chicks murmuring and making those ” chick sounds ” as you walk by…..lol.

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@NBTM

“Lifting is transforming, not “validation hunting” and the results are significantly positive in a multitude of ways.”

Youll be surprised to know how many guys lift mainly for validation.

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

Regardless of whatever sissy pontification follows, stabbing asserts dominance, control, force and power over the one being stabbed. This is an inconvenient truth for those unwilling or unable to defend themselves.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

” That is what the PUA guys are doing too. PUA v. Game is splitting hairs.”

Disagree. I was raised all of my life with ” Game ” concepts.

Pua’s utilize game.

They are not the same thing.

C
C
4 years ago

“Regardless of whatever sissy pontification follows, stabbing asserts dominance, control, force and power over the one being stabbed. This is an inconvenient truth for those unwilling or unable to defend themselves.”

Yeahhh, no. Stabbing means you can’t handle being cheated on and it made you emotional.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

” Yeahhh, no. Stabbing means you can’t handle being cheated on and it made you emotional.”

Lol, disagree completely as a man that’s been stabbed.

**sniff, sniff Ahhhh, the FI induced anti violence campaign has borne fragrant fruit!!!!

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

That video above breaks my fucking heart.

scray
scray
4 years ago

@rollo

Is this guy’s problem his inability to approach and lacking an ability to display more Alpha traits than Beta traits? Or is it his Blue Pill conditioned mindset and a Beta mental point of origin?

Question 1: Why isn’t this dude getting laid?

Answer: He fails to interact with women in sufficient balance of alpha and beta traits to make them attracted.

Question 2: What is making it more difficult for him to do act in that way?

Answer: Likely, his mindset.

Because mindset does what?

Oh right…it makes executing the program easier.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

Blaximus: ” It becomes dogmatic dictation and the students take it to heart as an unquestionable truth.”

Scray: ” Your formulation cuts against the very concept underlying game: AWALT ”

This the logical fallacy of Argument by Undesirable Consequences.

Mr. T: “Context?”

The man, standing in a neutral pose, with a neutral expression, is subcomming “I’m fruitier than Carmen Miranda.”

The context is the subcoms, by appearance. In this case, by neutral appearance alone.

C
C
4 years ago

This dude over here acting all indignant that society’s conventions are stopping us from stabbing each other over trivial shit. lol

scray
scray
4 years ago

re: stabbing

gee…hmmmm

alpha trait = capacity to and ability to inflict violence

yessir, this would be an alpha trait.

which is another reason why alpha is not necessarily good, nor is beta not necessarily bad.

morality is inherently beta too.

🙂

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

MrT I understand your point and that it is valid to you. But, however a man becomes involved with lifting, he is transformed by it. And, how do you define “validation”? Is self “validation” though self transformation via physical development inferior to something else? If so, in what context? If not, why do you debate it? Do people not have a right to improve themselves physically? Shouldn’t they have the right to improve themselves in whatever way they wish and think of themselves however they want regardless of your assessment? Or is your perception of the effort and its results… Read more »

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
4 years ago

@ sfer I don’t see PUA vs game as splitting hairs. Game doesn’t require complex routines/ sets props silly attention seeking behaviour/props pumping yourself up before entering a club/bar etc. When I see guys doing all that stuff it comes off as try hard because that’s exactly what it is. Game should be effortless and fun in a ” Wow that guy was different” kind of way. Not ” remember that guy dancing on the table with a pimp cane? ” kind of way, sure it may be “entertaining” in the moment but what are you going to do after?… Read more »

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@blax “I think some guys just tend to drown themselves in the technicality of it, and tend to miss the larger picture that’s looming right in front of them – the internals of it all, and changing the mindset asap. Getting success/pussy may just stunt their growth process until a later time.” Some are definitely stuck in the technical side for too long. But PUA is a tool. You choose how to use it. Its not a guide to life (though it will help people get tons of various life experiences and may change their perspectives through talking to tons… Read more »

theasdgamer
4 years ago

Regardless of whatever sissy pontification follows, stabbing asserts dominance, control, force and power over the one being stabbed. This is an inconvenient truth for those unwilling or unable to defend themselves.

Possibly, such men are ruled by their infantile emotions and that is why they stab…they lack the ability to control themselves.

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

What is morality other than a very malleable contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social,dynamics?

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“Game doesn’t require complex routines/ sets props silly attention seeking behaviour/props pumping yourself up before entering a club/bar etc.”

Game is an innate part of the Burden of Performance. Every man games. Some just do a shitty job of it.

Not every man practices PUA techniques.

theasdgamer
4 years ago

@scray

morality is inherently beta too.

Well, my morality is that I get to stab you in the neck for saying that, heh, heh…scray’s epitaph: “he was a hata and was stabbed by a beta”

hank holiday
hank holiday
4 years ago

@SFC Ton Regarding the field reports How do you remember what was said? Who did what and when? You write FRs. More specifically, a good tip is that during slower times in your night/day out, reflect on what all you did. As I am walking around, I think back on my previous sets. This a) helps me to think how I could do better next and b) helps to bring back those memories in your mind. If you wait till the very end you’ll generally forget a lot of things, but if you think back on them its much easier… Read more »

scray
scray
4 years ago

@kfg

This the logical fallacy of Argument by Undesirable Consequences.

No, it isn’t, unless you hold no belief as to whether game exists. If we all believe game exists, then it is simply reducto ad absurdum.

But cool, if you’re going to open up the belief as to whether game exists, it still isn’t a fallacy because we’re discussing which way to view a certain set of social facts is more useful and better. In that case, discussing consequences is more than fair.

So nice try but

comment image

lol

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

I would rather be the stabber than the one crying “infant”.

scray
scray
4 years ago

@asd

“…and so went out like a tru alpha playa.”

Kayos
Kayos
4 years ago

@Blaximus “Is the discussion concentrating solely on getting laid, or is it about mindset and motivation and action – long-term?” Neither If I’m not mistaken, what started this discussion was Scray making the assertion that “provisioning is a beta trait”. Like I keep saying, the real discussion is whether action can be separated from mindset. Scray is proposing a model to look at Alpha and Beta by classifying individual action. So you have Rollo’s method of using solely internal mindset as a method of classifying a man as alpha or beta. The problem is that unless you posit that mindset… Read more »

theasdgamer
4 years ago

not busting on step 2 but you lost me at step 1

XD

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

” Possibly, such men are ruled by their infantile emotions and that is why they stab…they lack the ability to control themselves.”

This may be true in many cases, but it’s a more recent phenomenon of the current emotionalizing of males.

Stabbing a guy isn’t necessarily a lack of control. Sometimes, it’s the exact opposite.

theasdgamer
4 years ago

“…and so went out like a tru alpha playa.”

XD (Nah, a real alpha would bring a piece and the beta would have his own epitaph: “This beta’s plight was from bringing a shiv to a gunfight”)

scray
scray
4 years ago

@asd

a real alpha would have his guard down around a lowly beta. because what has he to fear?

Caesar was stabbed to death too, s0n.

don’t hate on our kind.

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@kfg

I wrote context as in I didnt know what you wanted me to look at.

The Question
4 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi I’ve brought this up before, but I’m curious what you think of it. I strongly suspect that most men after a certain point, and with sufficient life experience, become RP aware even if they reject it. In other words, they know, perhaps on a subconscious level, what the truth is, but they refuse to embrace it. It is not that they don’t know; they know but still live according to pretty lies. Regarding the opening anecdote by Softek, I wonder if the father is one of those men. It’s not the first one I’ve heard or witnessed.… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
4 years ago
Reply to  The Question
theasdgamer
4 years ago

Stabbing a guy isn’t necessarily a lack of control. Sometimes, it’s the exact opposite.

True, which is why I said “possibly”. If I were to kill someone, it would either be in self-defense or…in preventive self-defense or (possibly to take their stuff in an apocalypse).

I might not be totally stone-cold, but my motivation wouldn’t be anger.

hank holiday
hank holiday
4 years ago

@kayos

nah playdontpay is fine, he’s just working from a position that’s ignorant of my situation and pua.

he’s just giving advice on what his personal experience tells him is the best for me.

also, its a good frame building exercise if nothing else.

theasdgamer
4 years ago

a real alpha would have his guard down around a lowly beta. because what has he to fear?
Caesar was stabbed to death too, s0n.
don’t hate on our kind.

Lol, I don’t fear, but I have learned to watch my back better. (It’s a neat trick and maybe sometime I will show you how to do it. It involves mirrors.)

Have you done your chores yet?

ollieoxenfree1
4 years ago

Our investment in women begins before we meet them. The expensive clothes for our night out, the hair cut at the barbers, the expensive cologne, the monthly gym membership. All of it with a woman in mind. I’m aware women do the same, but they’re free of the financial burden when they meet Mr Right. Provisioning is just another term for investment. We’re investing in women before we meet them, so it’s not surprising we continue to do so, when we’re with them. Despite what we’d like to believe, women are the prize. Men are afforded their status by how… Read more »

mersonia
4 years ago

@ASD
“Lol, I don’t fear,”

Apparently no here is afraid of anything lol……

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@NBTM “I understand your point and that it is valid to you. But, however a man becomes involved with lifting, he is transformed by it.” I agree. “And, how do you define “validation”? Is self “validation” though self transformation via physical development inferior to something else? If so, in what context? If not, why do you debate it?” In all my dealings with manosphere, validation is always used as in other people validating you. You do something because you have no selfesteem/confidence and think that if enough people will like you, you will be able to like yourself. “Do people… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

kfg to Mr T
Why do people identify this man, adopting a completely neutral pose, as gay?

Be interesting to check the age of those people. He looks like a pretty typical urban Millennial to me, you can find men like this on college campuses across the US. They’ve been through the k-12 brainwashing, they’ve been through the anti-rape “Men bad! Yes means yes! Men Bad” required sensitivity training in college.

Pretty sure he doesn’t lift. He should.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Not Born This Morning
Regardless of whatever sissy pontification follows, stabbing asserts dominance, control, force and power over the one being stabbed

A few years back a woman in my area stabbed her husband. He didn’t die right away. She’s still in prison.

How alpha was she then? How alpha is she now, d’ya think?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

The Question I strongly suspect that most men after a certain point, and with sufficient life experience, become RP aware even if they reject it. In other words, they know, perhaps on a subconscious level, what the truth is, but they refuse to embrace it. It is not that they don’t know; they know but still live according to pretty lies. At what point do you believe this happens? I know men in their 70’s whose actions and words are very blue pill, some of them are extreme White Knights. Looks like they totally believe the pretty lies. IOW I… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ Mr T ” In all my dealings with manosphere, validation is always used as in other people validating you. You do something because you have no selfesteem/confidence and think that if enough people will like you, you will be able to like yourself.” I wouldn’t even argue that this is a truth in many cases. Again, I am stuck in my own head, and just assume that most guys think similarly to myself. Re: Lifting. The validation, if it’s correct to call it that, that I sought was my own. People gave no fucks about my skinny size, some… Read more »

The Question
4 years ago

@Anonymous Reader “At what point do you believe this happens? I know men in their 70’s whose actions and words are very blue pill, some of them are extreme White Knights. Looks like they totally believe the pretty lies. IOW I disagree strongly.” My theory is based on hearing older men privately confide that they know the truth about these things even as they heavily pushed for BP beliefs publicly because “you just can’t do anything about it.” They’re resigned to their fate. However, that didn’t explain their evangelical mindset for promoting BP attitudes. My impression was that it truly… Read more »

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

I think that it isn’t bad to do X to try to get validation as long as X is good in itself. Lots of times that motivation disappears anyway as you engage in X. Motivations change. Just do stuff and see if you like it. Be open to change.

I started surfing 20+ years ago. Why did I start? Who fucking cares.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Scray: “No, it isn’t, unless you hold no belief as to whether game exists.” What I do is I do not hold AWALT as an unfalsifiable axiom. It is true in my experience, so far, and there is a theoretical framework for it, but it is not proven. If evidence arises where the interpretation may be that AWALT is false, I consider it. And of course the whole thing keys on just exactly what “T” is. Falsifying AWALT does not imply that “A” or game are falsified. There is a story that Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin simply because he was… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ sfer

Validation, imo, can be like a drug. Best to always be careful and mindful with it.

My take is not to seek validation, and pay it little actual mind when it’s received. People that validate, can also remove said validation.

Always validate yourself first.

scray
scray
4 years ago

@asd

Lol, I don’t fear, but I have learned to watch my back better

lol nice hamstering.

either you are, or you aren’t.

it’s okay if you aren’t, bro.

sometimes it means getting stabbed.

i understand ur scared tho. 🙂

scray
scray
4 years ago

@kfg

. It is true in my experience, so far,

cool, so then in your experience so far, what happened wasn’t a logical fallacy. GG.

p.s.

find some clothes, will ya!

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
4 years ago

@kfg

I think that “NAWALT” is actually more like, not all women are the same woman to the same man on the same week of her Cycle.

Or : “NAWATSWTTSMOTSWOHC”

I am so acronym, even this meta.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

The Question My theory is based on hearing older men privately confide that they know the truth about these things even as they heavily pushed for BP beliefs publicly because “you just can’t do anything about it.” They’re resigned to their fate. Looks like either selection bias or confirmation bias to me. What age group are these “older men”, are they in their 40’s, 50’s, 60s, 70’s, 80’s? It makes a difference. My experience is different, so I disagree. I work around men in their 40’s and 50’s who are Beta to the max. “Happy wife, happy life” is their… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Blaximus: ” just assume that most guys think similarly to myself.”

That is a fundamental error. One that has proved fatal to a good many men. Quit it.

“The validation, if it’s correct to call it that, that I sought was my own.”

You are using the term “validation” as it is used in the empirical sciences. You have a hypothesis, you subject it to test, and if it passes the test, the hypothesis is valid.

In psychotherapy, however, it means positive reinforcement by another person.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Blaximus
Validation, imo, can be like a drug. Best to always be careful and mindful with it.

Dopamine hits are dopamine hits, wherever we find them.

sfer
sfer
4 years ago

“My take is not to seek validation, and pay it little actual mind when it’s received. People that validate, can also remove said validation.”

That is a good way to view it, but not at the start. Starting out you can be indulgent in your base desires. It isn’t going to be the way you imagine it anyway.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ kfg

” In psychotherapy, however, it means positive reinforcement by another person.”

This is yet another reason why I will stay away from psychotherapists.

Chump No More
Chump No More
4 years ago

“Oh and my mindset is “I’m awesome… I’m going to do what I want when I want. Chicks love me. AND I am going to speak their language…”

This is classic ‘Pook’, and what was Pook all about? Yup, mindset.

MrT
MrT
4 years ago

@blax

I dont disagree and I know my perception is probably not a good estimation of the population, but ive seen enough cases to warrant me writing that disclaimer.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@AR: “Pretty sure he doesn’t lift. He should.”

Pretty sure he’d be horrified by the suggestion.

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

@Rollo “Is this guy’s problem his inability to approach and lacking an ability to display more Alpha traits than Beta traits? Or is it his Blue Pill conditioned mindset and a Beta mental point of origin?” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-erfXFv4yYw May I have a few more choices such as…. spoiled rotten, hoping self pity will get him laid (that’s not even beta, I don’t know what the fuck its is), mommy’s boy? This is major WTF?? What a shame. Obviously, lifting isn’t everything. But it is significant and he is missing any opportunity to capitalize on it. He has zero game except projecting… Read more »

722
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
%d bloggers like this: