In last week’s comments Not Born This Morning dropped this comment in the last thread:
It has been said and it seems fairly well established as a presumed reality that “Women are the gate keepers to sex and men are the gate keepers to commitment”. This model of gender specific “gatekeeping” seems to be the most widely accepted model in the red pill community and the general culture accepts it readily. This model seems rational enough, it significantly forms our frame of understanding about gender dynamics upon which we base our interpretations of behavior & intents, and our decisions to act. But is it the best model to explain what is really going on? Could this model be inferior in that it fails to account for an underlying more fundamental motivator? Is there a more accurate explanation for women’s intents and behaviors? Could this model be potentially deceptive?
The sex side of this model is simple and easy to understand. It is very clear and specific to the fundamental biologic. It is inarguable, not negotiable. The primary drive motivating the sexual aspect is not political or social. It is biological. This is not the case with the commitment side. The commitment side is primary to the political and social realm. “Commitments” are always components of contracts written or otherwise.
To comprehend what I’m about to explain, we must first agree on the primary definition of commitment. As I understand it, a commitment is a pledge to do something, a proclamation to perform certain action (or inaction) within a specific context for the benefit of another usually in exchange for some consideration. In the sexual context women seek “commitment” from a man primarily for provisioning and sexual exclusivity. The man “commits” to the woman that he will abandon his freedom and not enter into sexual relations with other women. He pledges himself financially and sexually to her exclusively. Realistically, this form of “commitment” includes the man abandoning his options. If he becomes sexually involved with another woman, it is widely considered that he has “broken his commitment” and he is dishonored by her and society for “breaking the commitment”. But, has he really broken any commitment other than a self denigrating pledge to forgo his freedom and abandon his options? Since obviously the male imperative is polygamy and spreading his seed, then isn’t the imposition to “commit” in the first place really a dishonor of his sexuality and a dishonor to him? If so, isn’t “commitment” in this context nothing more than a form of enslavement?
So by saying men are the “gate keepers of commitment” aren’t we really saying that men are the “gatekeepers of their own enslavement”?
I’ve read this line of thought from various MGTOW hardliners in various iterations and I’ve even written a post on the concept of commitment and what it does or doesn’t mean to a man. The idea is to equate committing to a woman with some irrational agreement to self-induced slavery. However, the problem most men have with commitment is that the old set of books has a social mandate for men to keep their word or honor an agreement. It’s what men do. Say what you mean and stick to it, but as with most every uniquely male custom, Honor among men has been one more useful distortion of the Feminine Imperative.
As I mentioned in the Paradox of Commitment, men don’t have nearly the fear of commitment our feminized social order would have us believe. Men aren’t “commit-o-phones” when it comes to military service or dedicating themselves to a business. These are the areas the women’s magazines conveniently overlook when it comes to comparing men’s commitment with committing to women in monogamy. I’m bringing this up because it’s important to see how men commit to things other than fidelity to a single woman.
If we’re going to equate monogamous fidelity to a woman with slavery we also need to see how other commitments can be viewed as being, or not being, slavery. Is the commitment of military service slavery? Particularly if you know have a pretty good idea of what to expect from that commitment? Are you volunteering for slavery if you start a business and become financially beholden to it?
From the Paradox of Commitment:
You can even take marriage out of the equation; if I’m in a committed LTR with a GF and over the course of that relationship I realize that she’s not what I’m looking for (for any number of reasons, not just sex), even though she’s 100% faithfully committed to me and the LTR, should I then break that commitment? If I do, am I then being unethical for having broken that commitment irrespective of how I break it? Should the commitment to my own personal well being and future happiness be compromised by another commitment?
What’s my obligation; neglect myself in favor of a bad commitment or to the principle of commitment itself?
It’s my take that commitment ‘should’ be a function of genuine desire. Ideally, commitment should be to something one is so passionate about that the limiting of one’s own future opportunities that come from that commitment is an equitable, and mutually appreciated trade. This is, unfortunately, rarely the case for most people in any form of commitment because people, circumstance, opportunity and conditions are always in flux. A commitment that had been seen as equitable sacrifice at one time can become debilitating 5 years after it depending upon circumstance.
Under the old social contract, the idea that a man would compromise his sexual strategy to fulfill a woman’s (Hypergamy in the long term) had a presumed exchange – sexual access, parental investment, companionship, a good, supportive feminine role example for the kids, etc. – that made the commitment of marriage at least somewhat appealing, if not entirely equitable. I supposed a case could still be made that even under the old order of conventional gender roles and expectations men were still committing themselves to a downside bargain. But in our new, feminine-primary social order, with our broader communication, it’s certainly signing up for slavery of a sort in comparison to the options available being single.
A lot of guys think that by my advising men to spin plates and remain as non-exclusive as possible that its sole purpose is to free them up to indiscriminately bang as many women as possible. While sexual variety maybe an upside to non-exclusivity, there are many more freedoms and options that a non-exclusive man can invest himself in where committed men cannot, or wouldn’t even think to.
So yes, from a male sexual strategy perspective, and considering the terms of that commitment and consequences of breaking it are all glaringly apparent, signing up for that commitment might be assigning yourself to a kind of slavery. Under our present social conditions, staying single might be as good as it gets for men.
However, that said, there is still an undeniable, idealistic, hope that men can make the best of a marriage. Most men (see the 80% Beta men) still remarry in far greater margins than women, even after horrific divorces. We can attribute that to the sustainability of men’s sexual market value lasting longer than women’s, but the desire to want for a lasting monogamy is what I’m getting at. Even in light of the fact that women are hardwired for Hypergamy, and in light of women’s inability to appreciate the sacrifices men must make to facilitate their realities, men still, sooner or later, have a desire to lock down or otherwise wife-up a woman he idealizes. I have read the testimonies of men who will go to any length to stay in a marriage if even the outside hope of it improving exists.
I think this desire might be both a conditional and innate drive in men.
In Mrs. Hyde I quoted a study by Dr. Martie Haselton from Why is muscularity sexy? :
According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.
It’s entirely possible that a man’s sexual strategy is the simple result of his adapting to his circumstance.
Under the old social order, prior to the upheaval of the sexual revolution and feminine social primacy, investing heavily in one’s mate made good sense if the guy wanted to procreate. As men, I think we still want to apply more value to our commitment in this respect. I think it gets back to the fallacy of relational equity, but because most Blue Pill men believe that there is value in their committing to a woman, and they falsely think that women have the capacity to appreciate it, we tend to build more into it as some kind of mutually understood relationship leverage.
Gatekeepers
Back before Roosh began making his necessities into virtues, he had a pretty good insight about women being “gatekeepers” of both sex and commitment:
A popular manosphere saying is that women are gatekeepers to sex and men are gatekeepers to commitment. I wish this was an absolute truth, but it’s not. As a collective, women are often gatekeepers to both sex and commitment. Most men reading right now can surely attest to their failed attempts to secure commitment from women they slept with, and if you poll the entire population of men, you may find that they are the initiators of monogamous relationships more often than women. It only makes sense for this to be true: it is way more damaging for a man to have his woman sleep with another man and get cuckolded than the other way around. The 0.5% of the population who are skilled players and have more say with commitment don’t put a dent into this common reality. As a sex, men have very little say in determining the relationship dynamic.
[…]It would be a nice fantasy for us men to believe that we have a say in relationships and sex. It’d be nice to think that our “alpha” behavior and our game determines how a relationship can proceed, but often it doesn’t. We’re just giving the girl what she has already decided on. Do you really think you’re selling televisions to customers who came into the store with the intent to buy bicycles? The girl who falls in love with us wanted to fall in love with us, the girl who had fun with us wanted to just have fun with us, and so on. And even when a girl wants a bicycle, she still wants a certain kind of bicycle. This is why game is a numbers game, because girls are incredibly picky even when they are sexually available. The horniest girl in the club who decided on having sex will still have her pick of the litter and opt to get the best that she can.
From the perspective of men using Game to secure some kind of commitment with a woman, I’d agree, it is a numbers game. But, in general, most men aren’t learning PUA/Game to settle into an LTR and most Red Pill aware men (should) understand the nature of women well enough to leverage Game if (ever) they do look for commitment.
Roosh was correct about men not really being gatekeepers of commitment though. I think there’s a definite want on the part of guys to believe that they have some sort of leverage in the ultimate scheme of things. The Feminine Imperative constantly conditions men to think that their commitment to a woman is something insanely valuable to women. Thus, we see shaming tactics designed to call men out for avoiding commitment irrespective of men’s reasons for wanting to take precautions. This has the effect of conditioning men to think that they are the gatekeepers of something valuable.
In a sense, commitment is something valuable to a woman, however, in the age of Open Hypergamy and Strong Independent Women®, the writing is on the wall for men with regard to the convenient need for that commitment at the end-game phase of a woman’s sexual market value. So yes, a man’s commitment to monogamy with a woman has inherent value, but men are hardly the gatekeepers of it when it is a woman who does the deciding as to whether any one guy’s commitment makes any difference to her.
So, we come to a question of comparative equity with regard to men “signing up for slavery” and how inherently valuable his commitment (as convenient as it’s needed) really is to a woman. I have no doubt there are several women reading this right now who are in “relationship limbo” with a guy they desperately want to commit to them in some official capacity. And no doubt they’ll drop a story in the comments personalizing it to be typical of men, but I would argue Roosh’s point that men are the initiators of monogamous relationships far more often than women. Ironically, commitment only has value to a woman when it’s denied to her by a man who’s SMV outclasses her own.
For obvious reasons, highly desirable women, women at the peak of their sexual market valuation, are always the least concerned with men’s capacity to commit. They largely have the luxury to be selective, but furthermore the time at which women are at their highest SMV is usually the point at which men are still building upon their own. Eventually, commitment only has an appreciable value to a woman when she is most in need of it; when her SMV is in decline.
I should also point out that men, the majority being Blue Pill Betas, are the most necessitous of a woman’s commitment when she is at her highest, his is an unproven commodity, and he appreciates the value of a woman’s commitment. Thus, most men look for a stable monogamy in their early to mid 20s, while more mature men who’ve had time to build their SMV into their mid to late thirties tend to be less concerned with monogamy. This is why we hear the constant drone of women bemoaning that highly valuable, supposedly peer-equitable men’s unwillingness to commit and settle down with women aging out of the sexual marketplace. Women are far less concerned with the commitment-readiness of young, unproven men who themselves would commit to even a women in the mid-range of her SMV.
At the end here, I think it’s time Red Pill men disabuse themselves of the idea that they are the ‘gatekeepers’ of commitment, and rather employ their internalized Red Pill awareness and Game to be the ‘key masters’ of women. While I have no doubt that commitment can be a carrot on the stick for some women, the problem really lies in how that commitment is in anyway valuable and balance that knowledge with the fact that commitment, once given, becomes valueless and taken for granted when it’s established. The fact that you’d commit to a woman isn’t something that carries a relationship, no matter how badly she wanted it from you before.
There really is no quid pro quo when it comes to commitment or value in believing you’re a gatekeeper of it.
Law 20
Do Not Commit to Anyone
It is the fool who always rushes to take sides. Do not commit to any side or cause but yourself. By maintaining your independence, you become the master of others – playing people against one another, making them pursue you.
@Andy great comments about your marriage. people should pay attention because this is the real deal. “No lovey dovey shit”- this is part of the difficulty of long term marriage. The lovey dovey shit fun, but it will drag you down. “I’ll say this, from what I’ve seen MOST of them are really good Moms.” This is 100% true. Even the social media addicted <25 women are going to be great moms. That shit is biological. It isn't going to make marriage any easier. Both Tyler and mystery have had kids out of wedlock. I think they are in a… Read more »
Andy What are you even arguing for? We’re just trying to maximize the chances of successfully raising kids and enjoying life given the circumstances. I would say I’m not arguing, I’m merely stating that women are AWALT all the time, not based on any born on date. Do with that as you might… buuuuut… Just curious, is what you have to do to keep your woman in line the same as me? I’ve done More than you to keep my woman in line is the point… you are ON the right path… keep pushing it and you will convince yourself… Read more »
Oh and Andy… I have 5 kids 13 to early 20’s… and I am a strong proponent of pursuing the Platinum Rule [do whatever YOU want to do whenever YOU want to do it] as a means to this end – “enjoying life given the circumstances” …
@hank Real quick Great breakthroughs. I thought I mentioned before that the responses to “where are you from?” Can ONLY be: “here”, or “not here”. Either way YOUR response can be the same lol, julien covers that in one of his videos, but as you noticed it’s a tale as old as time…lol And you’re right about your new Asian girl DHV, I didn’t even see it in your FR! ..it’s a PERFECT way to convey you’re comfortable talking about sex: you’re non-judgemental about female sexuality, AND it’s getting sexual about someone else, NOT the girl you’re gaming, thereby avoiding… Read more »
Shakespeare is a great, but people who tell you that Shakespeare contains great wisdom that will improve your life are either frauds or English teachers.
The Platinum Rule isn’t a thing. Stop trying to make the Platinum Rule a thing.
@ Andy ” Fuck it. I’m just going to throw everything out there, and we can compare notes. And maybe this will help guys vet, or maybe this is just reality… Wife is mid-thirties 6.5/7 in prime. In shape, sweet, feminine, smart, joie de vivre, flirty, outgoing, wears makeup/jewelry/dresses and skirts every day. Like 1950’s shit. (I credit my good work for a lot of this). Very rare for a girl around here. Virtually non-existent. Anyway, she get’s hit on a LOT. Like just around town and shit with kids present. She get’s honks and hoots, occasional professions of undying… Read more »
SFER
The Platinum Rule isn’t a thing. Stop trying to make the Platinum Rule a thing.
Say please…
Doh… too late. I double checked. Yup it is a thing after all. free too! Just takes ballz to access… how YOU doin’ in that department?
People are already using the term “Platinum Rule” for other shit:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Platinum+Rule&oq=Platinum+Rule&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.568j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Platinum_Rule_(How_I_Met_Your_Mother)
Gotta agree with YaReally… anyone giving the advice to any young guy that marriage is a good idea under any circumstances in the modern first world is setting them up for failure. No one man short of a HG10 billionaire with perfect unbreakable frame and nary a health issue ever is going to keep the average HB7 loyal without a lot of luck. There are simply too many options. Amusing/Sad/Educational FR: I went out to meet with a friend this weekend that basically called me because he needed somebody to deflect a grenade. He was with a chick he’d banged… Read more »
” My bet is that women who will “whoops- I am pregnant” you are bad news. My brother got married to someone he accidentally got pregnant and it ruined his life. She is insane. ”
There is never any WHOOPS I’m pregnant.
There’s a guy deciding for whatever dumb ass reason not to protect himself and blasting a nut in a chick. That is not a WHOOPS.
See above re: Lazy, uniterested in putting in work…etc.
Guys do know how women get pregnant, right?
@sun
Too bad it wasn’t a viewing of Ballerina’s Snatch
@othergrain
I see what you did there.
I did get to see her ass though. She was showing me a bruise near the top of it. A+, would give it another bruise.
“There’s a guy deciding for whatever dumb ass reason not to protect himself and blasting a nut in a chick. That is not a WHOOPS.”
Birth control methods are a lot less effective in actual rather than theoretical use, but probably:
https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control-options/effectiveness
@hank classic Tyler bit: “You know, you act like a good girl. But every once in a while, you give off a bad girl mannerism.” Tension! So the ‘you’re a racist!’ stuff from your FR is OK, it WORKS because it creates an emotion. Not bad for a little spike/bringing her out of ‘random customer’ mode, but then it doesn’t carry any farther because you can’t keep on building tension with the racist thing – ‘oh yeah, I could see you were a racist from a mile away. I bet your dog barks at white people. You’re just one of… Read more »
Just for the record, Mrs. Tomassi has never had a Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat or even Pinterest account – and not because I forbid her to, she simply has no interest. She tried to start a Facebook account around 2007 but then deleted it because she got tired of how stupid people (and relatives) were and didn’t want to deal with responding to anyone.
Her attitude has always been that social media is just too tedious and she’d rather be doing things than wasting time posting pictures of them.
Bebé Tomassi is another story tough.
@ Rollo Yeah. I thought about forbidding all social media for my daughter, but it would turn her into a kind of hermit because all of her friends and cousins and god-sisters all snapchat up a storm. I just drew a line at messenger type stuff, and I have a ” turn off that damn phone ” time established. Violations mean I get the phone in a drawer for 30 days. I agree with your wife. I’ve been under pressure for years to have a FB account by family. That’s how they communicate. But, nothing personal, but I don’t want… Read more »
The elephant in the room is that people of different socio economic backgrounds are talking past each other. A solid well rounded black guy with a bit of swagger is the equivalent of a minor celebrity today given urban ghettos, gangs, drugs and prison culture (the result modern social programming clusterfuck). A semi rural middle class guy might as well live on another planet compared to the cosmopolitan urbanite (been there and seen it with my own eyes). Ya isn’t talking about exceptions to the rule (which some guys here represent) but the majority, the female cosmopolitan utopia. Different strokes… Read more »
@yareally puas
https://youtu.be/SfskUxET8oI
Just ran across this YouTube channel “subcommuncation mastery”. Guy does lots of good breakdowns of what makes these guys charismatic. Here’s a Clip of a epic frame battle between two alphas: Downey Vs Ferguson. And now heading out to sarge
While you are at vetting, pause vet for these qualities in your potential LTR.
This is stolen from the Blaximus and Deida playbook.
1. Beauty
2. Sexual Openness
3. Trust of their (man’s) direction
4. Support for their (man’s) vision
5. Intelligence (ed: even if it if feminine intelligence)
6. Healthy radiance
Vet for these and be congruently high quality with red pill awareness and game and then half done is well begun.
” A solid well rounded black guy with a bit of swagger is the equivalent of a minor celebrity today given urban ghettos, gangs, drugs and prison culture (the result modern social programming clusterfuck).” http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a3/a3f7d6a5d287ca204273a4570974e5f1ca67ca8d6dc90c34cff595532d8f3b04.jpg Okay. I’m not gonna go all reactive to this statement because there is a twinge of truth to it. I’d just subtract the whole ” prison culture/drugs ” thing. That is a sub-culture within the culture. I got swag like a motherfucker ( according to my daughters…lol ) and I don’t do/sell drugs, nor have I ever been to prison. Ghetto is a popular catch… Read more »
Sun Wukong The moment she met an actual Man that bucked the system, the entire person she’d spent a lifetime building became nothing but a liability. Her instincts for desire overrode the desire society told her she’s “supposed” to have, beautifully relayed… this is what I am talking about viz Hand… On ballerina ass…. pleasant memories of my first real GF… accomplished 16YO ballerina… ass that could crack walnuts… gave her her first orgasm and her pussy was audibly snapping in convulsions… scared me a bit! Great girl. we dated for every summer for three years and every fall she… Read more »
@Sentient Maybe there’s something to what you’re saying. One thing I didn’t mention before… I do think that if she sees you as high value you probably get a few bonus points for being the father of her children. They do love those kids. “Pro tip – if you feel the need to go outside and sample fresher fruit, don’t bother to tell her because in doing so you will rob her of the delicious feeling of “is he? Isn’t he?” ruminating as the need for excitement or comfort strikes her – that is what she prefers to KNOWING….” Good… Read more »
“The elephant in the room is that people of different socio economic backgrounds are talking past each other.” No shit, Sherlock. “Ya isn’t talking about exceptions to the rule (which some guys here represent) but the majority….” I think that is a problem for Ya. Ya should move on to realize that the Pareto distribution is a real thing and that some guys can’t make it out of triage. He can evangelize PUA (even to OMG’s if he doesn’t stray into their reality, but not to guys that don’t want to do the work). There is no reason why a… Read more »
@ Andy I can’t help what the wider consensus here happens to be, especially when it comes from dudes that have never married. I am talking to you about these issues because you are married. No matter how many times guys harp that monogamy is shit, marriage is shit, women are evil pieces of shit, men have no future, men are helpless against teh powerz of women, etc…etc… I will ALWAYS push back because it sounds like weakness to me. Things HAVE changed. I don’t argue that point. What bothers me is the way some guys react to that change,… Read more »
“My beef is that the WIDE consensus here is that it has gotten to the point where you have a better chance of raising kids right and maximizing the stability of the relationship if you DONT get married.” What the fuck? The wide consensus here is the rule? Group think is just that. That doesn’t ensure good raising of children. The fact is that it is a red herring to aver that married or not married actually matters. (red herring: something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.) Raising children right takes commitment, sacrifice,… Read more »
“You can do that with or without getting married or being monogamous but I for one would appreciate if you do it.”
Meaning commit, sacrifice, compromise, have fortitude be self-less and have harmony with the mother.
Married or not.
Blaximus
August 25th, 2016 at 5:15 pm
*Fistbump*
@ SJF
Lol. This happens every time. We wind up looking like the Marriage Council or some shit.
I should just stop typing, but I can’t help it every time I read ” Marriage is fucked and any man that thinks otherwise is crazy/stupid/lying to us and himself.”.
Sheeesh.
It’s not the marriage or the monogamy that matters. It is that Key-Master behind the Green Curtain doing his moves. Study those moves. How the hell did that guy get there?
The mindset, the motivations, the mindfulness, the lack of high barriers to jump over because of mindset, the purpose, the acceptance of vulnerability, the actual achievement of release from constraint, the compromise because you have compromise to give and the lack of being stuck in the grief stages. It’s about being free because of those things.
I for one would be a happy man if no man ever got married again or ever had a child.
And like I’ve done before, I’ll back my son no matter what he does. He’s my son and I’m there for him if he needs me while being independent.
@blax
“My daughters use snapchat and instagram, and I have full access to that also. On my daughter’s snapchat, I’m featured most prominently”
Teenage daughters often have two accounts, one that their parents know about
“They are a bad deal, especially if you are confused or unskilled. So instead of fearing and shouting, get your Game on another level
See this is what I mean. You’ll go on about how you don’t advise men to get married and then make the insinuation that only REAL men can make marriage work. Why should guys make it harder on themselves if they don’t have to? What is the upside? I mean for Christs sakes SJF is agreeing with you. You know you’re heading down the wrong fork when that happens.
@KFG In order for one herd’s slaughter/no slaughter strategy to be successful, the others must be compromised. In 1995, a renegade cow, paintbrush in mouth, painted the three words “EAT MOR CHIKIN” on a billboard. From that day forward, the burger-eating landscape would forever be changed. These fearless cows, acting in enlightened self-interest, realized that when people eat chicken, they don’t eat them. Today, the cows’ herds have increased and their message reaches millions – on television, radio, the internet, and the occasional water tower. Needless to say, Chick-fil-A fully endorses and appreciates the monumental efforts made by our most… Read more »
@ Bro Andy I’m not insinuating anything. I don’t do that ” Real Man ” pseudo shaming, and Rollo should ban my ass if I ever do. I advocate for men gaining skill in all aspects of life, for themselves. I never advocate for any man fearing anything. Understanding alleviates most fear. What I refer to is that my marriage works so far. I’m not suffering or struggling at all. I am trying to MAYBE get guys to understand that it is POSSIBLE, but maybe not for them in the current atmosphere. Marriage isn’t impossible because millions of guys manage… Read more »
@ redlight
Lol. I know.
I have full access to my daughter’s phone. I also raised her not to lie and be sneaky. I raised both of them that way from diapers.
The downside is, when they tell me stuff that I don’t particularly like, I have to try not to yell and scream and make a scene.
The other downside is that I try to make that a 2 way street, and be as honest with them as is rational.
Okay. I’m on the record. Don’t get married get into a LTR unless you have the skill, resources or fortitude. https://therationalmale.com/2016/08/21/the-key-masters/comment-page-2/#comment-166914 And I’m not going to apologize for being an inscrutable mastermind. A key-master per se. @ Andy How exactly unsuccessful am I in my own life? And how exactly does my lack of being unsuccessful not relate to others being successful? I own my lack of tact and expressiveness of ideas to other men. I’m just less than successful at that but strive to be better at it. So sue me for that. It’s not about me it is… Read more »
Andy I do think that if she sees you as high value you probably get a few bonus points for being the father of her children. They do love those kids. Yes – The prime directive satisfied… pass on those genes yo. But they lurv the grandkids even more… why? Pass on those genes her genes… It is a program with one outcome…. My beef is that the WIDE consensus here is that it has gotten to the point where you have a better chance of raising kids right and maximizing the stability of the relationship if you DONT get… Read more »
To expand on my reply to redlight, a mini FR concerning my baby girl. My daughter’s ” test boyfriend ” is a nice, quiet guy that is being harangued in a female dominated household. he is tall and athletic and handsome. I, on the other hand, am not a fan. My wife wanted to bring him along on vacation with us, because he never goes anywhere and she thought it would be good for him because we always have an absolute blast on vacation. I mulled it over for a few days before answering. We had an extra bedroom…so I… Read more »
Well done Blax… each one reach one!
“Well done Blax…” Second the thought, indeed. Great Frame Blax. Love you, man. Frustratingly so. I had the experience a couple years ago, two to be exact, in which I talked about fight club with a suitor of my daughter. A blue pill guy on a vacation in an island resort. Us and them. I opened up about being red pill in broad terms. The guy looked like a deer in headlights. Blue pill guy with no reference experiences. Six months later the relationship ended when the two watched Blue Valentine, the movie, together. (you have to know the reference).… Read more »
1. Great for the married guys who got it together. You understand though that the chances that you that your daughter will cheat on her dude are higher than the chances that your wife has.
2. All men’s estimate for that chance for their wives is always lower than what tumbles out in “well structured” studies, and well structured studies are suspected to under estimate.
re: orbiters Just blew up at the GF over this, because she was bringing up porn and the fleshlight in my drawer that I bought back in my incel days. “Do you want porn? Do you want to fuck a plastic pussy in a cup?” I told her to shut the fuck up, to stop talking to me in such a disrespectful way, and that I’m sick of her disrespecting me like that and I’ve had enough of it, and asked her if she needed to have a million guy “friends” on Facebook and IRL that want to fuck her,… Read more »
Anyway, rant aside: @ Blax Awesome, and thanks for sharing that. Felt like vicarious parenting for me. That’s awesome you pulled that guy to the side and imparted some knowledge to him. Shit like that can really stick with a guy, and I hope he comes to learn something from that. @ walawala Great job with holding Frame, the text responses seemed perfect. An art in progress. I’m still trying myself to grasp exactly what holding Frame means, and how to be assertive without being aggressive or insecure. I just had the thought when I was reading through your stuff… Read more »
@cheupez
“2. All men’s estimate for that chance for their wives is always lower than what tumbles out in “well structured” studies, and well structured studies are suspected to under estimate”
Agreed, actual is a lot higher than reported. Does it matter?
Say that Mrs. Tomassi has had relations with 20 chads during the last decade. If Mr. Tomassi is unaware of these, it is as if they never occurred. His emotional state does not change when they occur, only if he becomes aware of one or more of them then he reacts.
@softek
please FR in detail the gaming of the girls, or subsequent girls, as we want to assist you since we really want you to get laid by new girls, as it is the cure for oneits
One doesn’t count because it’s a buffer (i.e., just messaging online). I’ve been too half assed about meeting up and not pushing for meeting up has ruined it. I had some “LMR” about meeting up in person (we met in-person, actually, and exchanged info and it never progressed since), and didn’t push past it. Could be good anyway because a major red flag was her blowing up out of nowhere, getting sarcastic and bitchy with me when I did absolutely nothing to provoke it. I smell another BPD that is potentially even worse than the girl I’ve been seeing and… Read more »
@SJF, Blax, Sentient Now you guys know I love you BUT… Here’s why I say giving young guys advice that marriage is a good idea is stupid. 1) It’s pretty easy to look at statistics and say the average dude is fucked. 2) If a dude shows up here needing advice, he’s the average dude. Going off how hard it’s been for me as a very, very, very single guy, how likely do you think the average Beta Millenial coming here asking advice (let’s face it, no Alpha would) is to be able to actually put it all in to… Read more »
@softek
During the “creepy”, how was your eye contact?
@sun
“It’s that you’re not part of this generation of men. The women have gotten ridiculously harder, men have gotten ridiculously softer …”
A few days ago, I saw two millenial moms playing with their sons exactly like fathers would. At first I wanted to disbelieve it, but it was the exact light roughhousing that dads would do. These were not single moms, and they had assumed the masculine role.
Rollo can make one of the best clinical psychologists the world has ever known if he wanted and so I dont want to consider situations for guys like him. I am talking ordinary guys like us.
Even then I know that if Blaximus’s siz tried the “Daaaad” thing on him to talk to some clueless dude back in the days, his dad would probably not process. Chances are Blax is not relating with his daughter the way his siz related with their dad. Things have changed a lot.
YaReally’s “MonoLTRs don’t exist anymore” is one of the most brilliant hypothesis of the manosphere and now we have Blax: Her: Really? But why? Because a guy spoke to me and I spoke back? Me: It’s his issue, not yours. Her: It just doesn’t make sense. Me: No, it does not. Her: He’s like that because his last gf played him. Me: That’s his problem, not yours. When I first started talking to your mom, every time I turned my back some guy swooped in and tried to talk to her. Every, fucking, time…. Her: What did you do? Me:… Read more »
@Softek The girl in question did get into my head…probably because of the drama. My game was super tight. Her waif-like behavior was always trying to get me to feel sorry for her–a BPD trait. Finally there was the false-pregnancy scare. False because it was a text. I went no contact for two weeks. She started hanging around a friend of mine. So that exchange serves two purposes: 1) She wants me to be a dick…she doesn’t want me to “ask her nicely”…that was just her way of seeing what I would say. Usually I reply with cocky funny: “behave”… Read more »
@ redlight I think I darted away as far as eye contact goes. Same thing I did with my old boss. Form of submission and shame I guess, out of fear of conflict/reaction to criticism. (which I hate myself for, e.g., he was a complete fucking asshole, but as soon as he’d be a dick to me I’d just shrink away and break eye contact and do everything I could to not look him in the eye) My first instinct when someone criticizes me at all is to break eye contact and look away. I didn’t even think of that… Read more »
“Really it’s about self-respect and coming from your own Frame…..easier said than done. I’m kinda talking out my ass here but I feel like self-respect and self-prioritization are natural, and more than learning Frame we’re UN-learning bad mental habits that keep us from holding Frame.”
Habits matter. But they’ll tend to regress to an instinctive mean.
Unless someone’s behavior around you is specifically tailored to prevent that from happening.
File under ‘things that make you go ‘hmmm”.
@ Softek, Blax, “Awesome, and thanks for sharing that. Felt like vicarious parenting for me. That’s awesome you pulled that guy to the side and imparted some knowledge to him. Shit like that can really stick with a guy, and I hope he comes to learn something from that.” Ditto on that. It’s getting tougher and tougher out there as shit just isn’t getting passed on and the FI rules. @ Softek, Sometimes it seems/feels like having a strong frame requires having a delusionally positive self image; like some idiot who is clearly doing everything wrong and everybody knows it… Read more »
@ walawala http://www.bpdcentral.com/blog/?Fear-Obligation-and-Guilt-FOG-in-High-Conflict-Relationships-36 That article is helping me put things into a healthier perspective. Calling her out, predictably, only made the behavior worse. I called her out on being manipulative and she only flipped it into trying to make me feel guilty for calling her manipulative. The main thing that blew up last night was her asking me not only about wanting other girls, but wanting porn/fleshlight/masturbation instead of her. As if it’s an either/or. She is EXTREMELY insecure, and it seems the most major fights we’ve had have been about porn. She also knows I was a virgin before… Read more »
“If a dude shows up here needing advice, he’s the average dude. Going off how hard it’s been for me as a very, very, very single guy, how likely do you think the average Beta Millenial coming here asking advice” @Sun Yeah, exactly. If what I’m going through now is what is required to train her and keep her in line long term(One foot out the door.) That’s much easier to do if you don’t have all your assets and the possibility of losing your kids on the line. NOT getting married isn’t a guarantee of that, but legally you… Read more »
@ Softek,
…….and what were the reasons again that you’re still with that crazy chick?
@Softek. Anything that triggers shame in a Cluster B/BPD unleashes a torrent of abuse or acting out.
My text was more clear but it’s the last one. The more you engage, the more you give her attention.
That means your focus is on her not you.
Break it off. Walk away. Stop obsessing and focus on something healthy. She’ll be ok don’t worry. It’s you that needs attention and a reboot.
@softtek
I feel for you dude. As an older guy that walked away from an unfulfilling LTR I can only encourage you to do the same. It WILL get better over time.
@ Sun Wukong I know you were talking about monogamy, so this is more a riff off what you’re saying as opposed to a direct response: I think of it like trying to build a house on a volcano. Meaning that anything we try to build on top of it gets incinerated. FI, Blue Pill, childhood neglect/abuse, Blue Pill parenting, absent fathers, years of incel, humilation/rejection, etc: This all results in a “volcano” as our center. For healthy, grounded men, learning skills builds on top of a solid foundation. When you have a solid foundation, the skills and experiences you… Read more »
@ Colbert
Scarcity mentality and ONE-itis to an extreme.
I originally elaborated a lot in this post, e.g. about WHY my scarcity mentality and ONE-itis is so extreme, but then I realized I was just reinforcing neural pathways associated with my issues, and reinforcing belief systems that pump those issues full of steroids and make them bigger and stronger with more power over me.
Effort is not a four letter word. Serious question: why does one eschew putting forth the effort required to succeed? Personally, I have a wide and varied range of interests and the bulk of them have required differing levels of effort. What is so wrong about advocating for men to strive for all encompassing mastery over their own lives? Using my new sifu YaReally as an example, everyone here can see the practice, thought, dedication and effort he displays, no? Why is that not translating as an endorsement of what’s possible through effort? And before it gets said, I’m not… Read more »
@Softek You really need to have/find people you’re comfortable with that you can exercise basic convo/contact with. I used to be really awkward when it came to talking with and touching people. The only way to get past this is practice. With people who’re comfortable enough with you that they’re gonna just be a bit weirded out if you miscalibrate, rather than blowing up at you. You need dudes you can shove around and slap on the back, chicks you can give a hug or touch on the back. Just anything to normalize contact. So you don’t seem so anxious… Read more »
Since when was TRM solely for the purpose of targeting younger men who are unmarried or not in an LTR? There seems to be some serious butt hurt about a few older men who have shared success about their marriages. Just because they are sharing their story does not mean it applies to everybody. You have to pick and choose from TRM what is valuable to you at the place you are at as a man and what your goals and needs are. Sheesh, what a bitch fest the comments have been on here this week. I don’t have time… Read more »
One would imagine the removal of social deterrents like slut shaming has only affected countries in the west. Not so. I think the sexual liberation craze has a worse effect on women in some areas of the third world. Women are no longer the gate keepers for commitment anywhere, even where women should be living in a more traditional/patriarchal culture.
For those who have a minute, they can have a glance at this article about the dating culture in Nairobi, Kenya.
@cheupez: On the ‘sexual liberation’ thing hitting more ‘traditional’ societies….
As a Kenyan I can confirm the trend…but it isn’t as wide spread as the papers make it.
But it is happening…
The FI has definitely got a foothold here. And along with cuckolding, cock carousel, beta orbiters, etc its all here….
Traditional societies are urbanizing quickly and norms have changed too in the last 2 decades…
That being said…that was 6 yrs ago
“Since when was TRM solely for the purpose of targeting younger men who are unmarried or not in an LTR? There seems to be some serious butt hurt about a few older men who have shared success about their marriages.” @Roused No butthurt here, just objective, logical analysis trying to figure out why these old guys are getting their panties in a twist defending a legal contract that is tilted in a woman’s favor, tilted against your own favor, and tilted AGAINST your children’s favor. “IF your desire is to truly have offspring having kids with in a poly or… Read more »
With the help of SJF I realized how I went wrong. So go ahead and blast Blax, SJF, Sentient etc… For writing about LTRs, but those dudes do know the fuck they are talking about. IT DOES NOT MEAN THEIR MESSAGE APPLIES TO ALL VISITORS OF THIS SITE. Why people think that shit is beyond me. I love reading what those guys share. I’m not 25, I’m an old guy. Doesn’t mean I don’t practice on young chicks, but they aren’t my goal. Right, I am also an older guy. I think Sun’s (and Ya’s) point, though, is that there… Read more »
@ Blax “Serious question: why does one eschew putting forth the effort required to succeed?” Your daugher’s current boyfriend is the answer to that question. Being raised in this generation, getting burned in a relationship, having no idea what it means to really be a man, to take charge, etc., generally being fucked in the head, more as a result of the current state of society than through any fault of his own. If you didn’t say anything to him at all, God knows if he would ever have a snowball’s chance in hell of recovering. You may be underestimating… Read more »
@Softek While masturbation is antisocial behavior,feeling guilty about it is even more antisocial than the act itself,see subcoms.What you really need is balance,not some psycho bitch laying a guilt trip on you for getting some temporary relief.While she is clit riding her own heel while watching tv or whatever amiright? https://youtu.be/Oj3VphK9AMk If this is a problem for you then figure out what is causing it and quit doing it.Whatever you do get rid of the guilt and set some boundaries for relating..This is the main thing,understanding people are basicaly the same and learning how to relate,to their insecurities,strengths and respect… Read more »
All that being said, I’m laughing at what Blax said to that guy about having a lot of Bitch in his lungs. And curious about how to PROPERLY tease women, like I’ve established now that I have a tendency to be creepy and awkward: is this a result of incongruent subcomms? What is the proper way to escalate kino? Keeping in mind I’m not even trying to bang this girl, just seeing if I can have some fun and escalate some sexual tension without any intention of it actually going anywhere. Just getting better at being in this small space… Read more »
@ disgruntledearthling Thank you, I appreciate it. @ stuffinbox I overreacted and drove that point home last night when she was grilling me about porn, and saying I have to choose between her and a ‘plastic pussy in a cup.’ I just said back to her, why don’t you go jerk off one of the five dozen guys you keep in touch with on Facebook that want to fuck you, and you still keep around despite saying you only want to be with me? I struggled a LOT with guilt over going on porn because of being raised Catholic. It… Read more »
@Softek
Know thyself man!
Don’t learn the tricks of the trade before learning the trade first.
People are basically the same not equal.
@Sun Wukong Thanks for the perspective and I agree with your sentiments about the lot of millenials and marriage for them. I am wrong to advise millenials “into” marriage and perhaps all along my real goal is along the line of Blax’s comment: “Serious question: why does one eschew putting forth the effort required to succeed? Personally, I have a wide and varied range of interests and the bulk of them have required differing levels of effort. What is so wrong about advocating for men to strive for all encompassing mastery over their own lives? Why is that not translating… Read more »
@Softek, how would you rank this crazy B you keep communicating with? (even though everyone tells you to run).
Whatever number that is, say a 6, do you realize that, by default then, you have the skill set to have sex with any 6? If not, how are you attracting this crazy 6 to want to marry you? I’m having a hard time seeing why you don’t choose any one of the 100,000,000 other sixes in America to game. Understand what I’m saying? She’s not a special 6 snowflake; she’s simply a 6. Find another 6 or 5.
@ Softek, “Does this apply to TRP? Absolutely 110%. And in my own way, as far as women (and other interactions) go, I’m thinking I have to “play with my thumb behind the neck,” because “that’s what I was taught,” so to speak.” Those were good points you made in your post. You expressed how I have felt about all of that better then I could. You try and try with what you were taught but what you were taught was exactly the wrong technique – WTF!! Very frustrating. I think everybody here can relate to that and that is… Read more »
@Softek You need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy From Wikipedia: No More Mr. Nice Guy: A Proven Plan for Getting What You Want in Love, Sex, and Life is a 2003 self-help book by Dr. Robert A. Glover. He describes what he calls the “Nice guy Syndrome,” a condition in men who appear to be always nice and avoid conflict at all costs. Glover’s premise is that nice guys have been conditioned by their childhoods and by society to believe that they will be successful only if they make everyone happy and never cause any problems for others.… Read more »
@roused I basically agree with everything sun said. To elaborate: “There seems to be some serious butt hurt about a few older men who have shared success about their marriages. Just because they are sharing their story does not mean it applies to everybody.” Except they say it applies to everybody…(hear me out guys, I’m not attacking your POV) No one on the anti-monoLTR side of this is saying from, hand, etc. you guys are endorsing are no longer effective or relevant. It’s simply not enough, OR needs to be executed in a different way. Used to be (thousands of… Read more »
@ SJF,
Yes, I’ve been meaning to read that book. BTW, thanks for the Franco post/excerpt you made the other day. Good stuff.
“Then in the same post lament about how much hard work it is, very hard, to maintain marriage.”
You imagined that I have lament. I don’t.
But your points are also well taken.
And also, Othergrain, the one thing that needs to be eliminated from any man’s sexual strategy is to never ever show butt-hurt. All traces of butt-hurt showing need to be eliminated.
@SJF I didn’t see your latest post when I sent mine “Serious question: why does one eschew putting forth the effort required to succeed?” It’s because in the context of this discussion, monoLTR, you guys often equate success with marriage. And I know both you, blax and I think sentient, SAY you do not recommend marriage, but then your train-of-thought posts often *seem* to not back that up. I think everyone here is in favor of “advocating for men to strive for all encompassing mastery over their own lives” but again, you equate mastery of a relationship with marriage. Whether… Read more »
The problem is not that the world is changing,the problem is that we are not keeping up with the changes as they happen. Does the mechanic or the doctor read more liturature in order to stay abreast of the new tech,meds,methods or tools? This doesn’t matter what matters is if they don’t keep up they both will be left behind. I have seen so many changes in my lifetime,it is nice to have one thing constant,a 35 yr mono ltr with all the ups and downs I know what to expect.Game works if i work it. Speaking of witch i… Read more »
“I think everyone here is in favor of “advocating for men to strive for all encompassing mastery over their own lives” but again, you equate mastery of a relationship with marriage. Whether or not that’s your intent, that’s where the, at least MY, confusion with your posts comes from.” You are correct for pointing this out and I am wrong for having given the wrong impressions about this. Very similar to when getting a golf lesson 20 years ago and I am thinking that I have my feet shoulder width apart or I’m taking the club back so far. Then… Read more »
I don’t endorse parachutes. I recommend having one when jumping out of planes at ten thousand feet.
@hank you’re really coming along man while guys like logically figuring out how things work, women like to find out things about THEMSELVES. It is introspective and doesn’t really rely on logic at all. The formula is yeah but the attraction comes from what good cold reading indicates about you — pre-selection — you know women really well. cold reads are an excuse for you to show her something about YOU. everything in the game is just showing her who you are. none of it is about her at all. now why am I saying this? Right now, you’re going… Read more »
@ SJF I need to RE-read it. No More Mr. Nice Guy is, as far as I remember, what got me into the manosphere. I might’ve even stumbled upon TRM after doing a Google search about the book after I read it. How’s this for irony: I think I lost it after I hid it, along with my copy of “The Game,” because I didn’t want my girlfriend to find either of them. It’s somewhere in the house. Still haven’t gotten “Bad Childhood, Good Life” but working on it. I think last night I deliberately acted more butthurt than I… Read more »
Andy wrote: “Bullshit. Just the psychology they learn alone by going through all that shit will help them to be good fathers. Plus being here and dedicating time and effort into helping a bunch of fucked up dudes is a pretty good indication of their character. Everyone underestimates how hard kids are, but I honestly have 100% faith that any of the PUA guys could get whatever they want and still raise amazing kids. They are the ones that are doing things in the right order.” Andy, Ok, fair enough. How about we table this until we get some field… Read more »
First off, I have constantly stated on this blog that men should not view my marriage as some template for a great marriage for themselves. I have what most men would think of as an ideal marriage. My wife is still attractive, athletic, fun to be with, fun in bed, a devoted mother to our daughter, gainfully employed, and intelligent enough to be interesting conversation. With an internalized Red Pill awareness my marriage is effortless and I attribute the quality of my marriage directly to my Red Pill awareness and Game. Despite all of that I am under no illusion… Read more »
@Rollo, I think you missed my last comment about your Rational Male book on Amazon. The font size is bigger now, correct? When I buy my second copy, I want it to be bigger.
[I haven’t changed the old edition printing yet. When the 2nd edition is released (November), yes the type will be 2 points larger.]
@Softek, what will it take to convince you that you’re a Beta trapped in an LTR with a very toxic BPD woman? If she came to you and said she’d banged some other guy? What would you do? In a way you’re becoming Emily’s old boyfriend. She berates you for your sexuality, she shames it and wants you to emasculate yourself for it. And you tolerate it while she embraces her own sexuality. So what will it take? Obviously not your complete sexual humiliation. Obviously not her blatantly addressing you as the Beta she expects you to be. What if… Read more »
softek I generally don’t read your posts because replying to them is a waste of time, as you clearly prefer the traps of your own making to actually taking action and doing the work to seek your happiness, so anything said now is wasted in my mind. Maybe one day you will make the changes you know you want to. That said, this bit here crossed my eye and may help someone else… like I’ve established now that I have a tendency to be creepy and awkward: is this a result of incongruent subcomms? You think you are being creepy… Read more »
I can tell you how and why Game works from a social, evolutionary and psychological perspective. I can tell you how a Red Pill father raises a daughter. I can tell you how to deal with a BPD woman. I can tell you how a mature man can interact with young women and generate attraction. I can tell you how a man can recreate himself in a Red Pill awareness. I can tell you how a man can deal with women as a fuck buddy, a SNL, and as a husband. I can certainly tell you how women’s imperative priorities… Read more »
@sentient “I don’t know Rollo – it sounds like all that will be a lot of hard work….” Because that’s what the guys here are opposed to, the hard work. Not the fact that the reward for that hard work may not be what it used to be, or that they don’t consider the “reward” for all that hard work worth it. Sewing a frilly pink dress from scratch is hard work, but I don’t want a frilly pink dress, so the reward isn’t worth all that work. Hard work for its own sake isn’t virtuous. Some of the hobbies… Read more »
@Rollo
” I can tell you how a mature man can interact with young women and generate attraction.”
Yeah I need this. Do tell
@Softek I was going to respond to the post Sentient did, but he pretty much nailed it. Kino is non-sexual, needs to be casual, and often involves teasing. It just occurred to me in fact that a lot of the time when I grab a girl or pull her hair or something I get a reaction that YOU would probably take very seriously and negatively (“FORGE! Stop that!”) but I just don’t give a shit and keep interacting. Say something funny, change the topic, do it again, whatever. I can do this bc I’m reading the subcomms and see that… Read more »
@Disgruntled Earthling:
1. Be interesting.
2. Don’t be boring.
If you fit comfortably in with the crowd, you’re probably doing it wrong:
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OF-AC897_0925ja_F_20120925045726.jpg