Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.
Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.
So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.
Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):
@reloadedbeats
A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.
What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.
In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?
Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.
We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”
Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.
Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.
It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”
No Quarter Given
In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:
We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.
We want to, so badly.
If we do, we soon are no longer able to
When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.
However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.
The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.
And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.
That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.
At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.
Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.
On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.
It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.
By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.
He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.
Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.
No Quarter Expected
I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.
Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.
The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.
Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.
There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.
It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.
Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.
The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?
The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.
It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”
It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.
So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.
I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.
Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.
Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.
What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.
That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……
I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.
The Red Pill Balance
Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.
KFG had a comment to this point:
If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.
Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.
Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.
“Supposedly, the jury is still out on Soy and phyto-estrogens . . .”
Which is irrelevant; soy is pig food. Feed it to the pigs, eat the pigs.
Most of Soy is an estrogen mimicker. Our bodies recognize it as estrogen, like many found in our environment. Staying away from Soy ( and all xenoestrogens ) is crucial, but not easy, because it’s used in practically everything packaged or boxed. Just like High Fructose Corn Syrup, bad shit.
Yes, Animal protein cuts out the devilish middleman.
My coworker consumes large quantities of Soy Milk in the belief that it is ” hjealthy “. It has done wonder for his manboobs. He gains a cup size every year.
Why does keyser need a big dick/looks to dominate his women, while fleezer can dominate with frame/power?
@scray
“i don’t understand. do you want to fuck this WIQ or not?”
Straightforward question. Straightforward answer: Yes
First response to your question, so instinctively the right response for me.
lol…ok you guys asked for it. Here comes another bitch-slap lol: @Palleon @scribblerg @etc “It’s clearly obvious that looks do have an impact – there’s that episode of keys to the VIP where that dumb as a rock male stripper gets pulled into the bathroom by a chick because she wanted his body and he was too clueless to escalate himself. As a personal anecdote, I have a tall, good looking friend who can just walk up to girls, tell them there cute, and ask them out without really building attraction” Look, here’s why you’re not going to get good… Read more »
@YaReally
“@talprofs Don’t shit where you eat or you’ll end up having to eat somewhere else. No advice because if you like that club you shouldn’t be macking the girls in it… ”
To the point and on point — Thank you.
@YaReally You know. It’s not that Chad Thundercock gets women, or even that WE can get women. It’s that we wish we looked like him. Guys like that bullied us when we were in high-school. Guys like that fucked our friends. Guys like that weren’t even bad people, but the conditioning made us into losers compared to that guy(assuming it did it’s evil mojo). I also think it turns us on more to the Porn-Star fantasy we wish we had. Most of us who looked at porn from an early age first got into it with attractive male leads. That’s… Read more »
If a girl ever asks me about High-school,
Just laugh at her. Then ask “Who cares about that shit?”. Bonus if you laser-eye her while you say it.
Because that would be a test. To see if you are Bob the Beta who still frets about getting embarrassed in gym class. Because Bob the Beta doesn’t get any real attention from girls…
But you’re not that guy, not anymore. RIght? Right. Swat that stuff away like it was a little fly, and get on with your own plan.
@Yollo “Detritus” Comanche: “That makes sense to you?”
Perhaps it would if I were “us.”
Fleezer – “…her orgasm is up to her. I’m usually willing to hold out for a few minutes and change angles or positions or whatever to help her but it’s all in her head. I need twice a day. most females are good with twice or three times a week. or less. I read somewhere a while back that most women would rather check social media than screw. they’re not like us. all the foreplay and the mood settign and the room can’t be too cold and they can’t be thinking about work or their list of to do’s, or… Read more »
@Yollo,
Do whatever you have to, to cleanse yourself of all resentment and hate, particularly for shit that happened in the past. Do not carry around excess shit man.
If a chick asks you about highschool ( da fuq? ) look at her like so-
http://m.quickmeme.com/img/79/7952e7fa154b57a99c6fbb8c4e8d159a529ebcb98f03f6a8331d6b2ac6c1c253.jpg
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVNEp6hZE3g?feature=player_detailpage&w=640&h=360%5D
“5 mins at 9 mph” Lol wut? Try 13. At least gets your blood pumping. Of course I’m built more like Scott Jurek than Arnold Schwarzenegger so ymmv. “Sprints? Man, it’s COLD outside. Lmao.” Best time of year for running. I have special minimalist shoes for trail running in the snow. Basically moccasins. It’s the coolest feeling. And, where I live, it’s hilly enough that your intervals are just built into the landscape. Way more interesting than a road, or a treadmill. Anyways, I work in health optimization and largely commend in info here. I’d add that you can actually… Read more »
On the looks thing YaReally is overengineering. Yes, I believe a fat guy with game can get laid. But what if a fat guy doesn’t have game? Then he’s even worse off. Why tie that ball and chain around your leg when you don’t have to? I work out because it makes me feel good. It makes me look good, which makes me feel good. It’s an accomplishment, something real. Yes for many guys, real accomplishments give a base of confidence from which to build. I ran for years. I finally did marathons mainly to say I did them. I… Read more »
On jealousy – I made out with a chick at a Meetup Christmas party. I did my job, was social and made the circuit, but pretty much she came onto me. So I took what was offered. Anyway, there was talk, not that I care. Look, when I was in that situation I was never jealous. I just figured I needed to do better, be a better man. So I have some luck now. What of it? Apparently some women were jealous too. Well, they should have been better flirts. I don’t know how much I ever like any woman… Read more »
@YaReally That’s why we send guys into nightclubs, full of girls who will never remember them. You know the worst part of that for me personally? I’ve spent years believing that I was actually pretty awesome with people. Hell, according to my therapist I really am. He gets Asperger’s or autistic guys at my IQ level every fucking day. I am head, shoulders, and goddamn feet above them for social interaction. I have fascinating stories, hilarious punchlines, read reactions properly, and get told (who knows it could be a lie but I doubt it) I’m one of the only appointments… Read more »
I really hate myself to fucking much right now. That’s a hotter bitch than I’ve had a chance with in 3 fucking years. So much self hate.
@Sun Wukong I don’t think you’re a retard. It’s fucking gratifying to blow up some schmuck every now and then with a Red Pill suppository, so long as they aren’t carrying. You’re probably THAT guy. THAT guy isn’t friends with plebs. That said, your therapist gets paid to help people who don’t know what you know. You might want to ask him why you like traumatizing people more than getting laid, even if it IS with some bitch that wants to make you jump hoops. You’re the same Sun Wukong from the outtro of the Preventative medicine book, right? Don’t… Read more »
@Yollo
I am. But in moments like this, I feel like a fraud. A fucking sham. Absolutely and completely hopeless. Damaged beyond repair or redemption. I feel like I’ve known grown an inch. Learn and learn and learn, read and read, go out and try… but I still fuck up crucial moments so decisively.
I’m still just human and broken in the end.
@Striver “Yes, I believe a fat guy with game can get laid. But what if a fat guy doesn’t have game? Then he’s even worse off. Why tie that ball and chain around your leg when you don’t have to?” As I’ve said before the reason I stress this stuff is because guys who are new to game will look for ANYTHING they can attach their self-worth to that isn’t THEMSELVES. When you tell a newbie “bro just make money bitches love money” or “just get jacked” or “just get a custom-fitted suit” etc etc what he’ll do is he… Read more »
@Yollo “You know. It’s not that Chad Thundercock gets women, or even that WE can get women. It’s that we wish we looked like him. Guys like that bullied us when we were in high-school. Guys like that fucked our friends. Guys like that weren’t even bad people, but the conditioning made us into losers compared to that guy(assuming it did it’s evil mojo). I also think it turns us on more to the Porn-Star fantasy we wish we had. Most of us who looked at porn from an early age first got into it with attractive male leads. That’s… Read more »
1. Good to see YaReally back to posting and Scray here – is this where all the refugees from the CH comments section end up? I still read the CH Game posts and the comments on Game posts (there are some very good guys still on those threads) but otherwise it’s hard work. 2. Scray – speaking as someone who first got into the YaReally Archive by reading your field reports (in early 2014), it’s remarkable to see the difference now. I’m not sure if you realize how much you sound like YaReally now. Not just the content – also… Read more »
YaReally – since you’re around – quick question. I’m chatting to a girl I met online. Texting now. 29, HB6.5 blonde. Very openly looking for a dom (one of her profile pics was her with a gag in her mouth). Texting became sexualized very very quickly (she replied to one of my first texts on Saturday saying she was at home tidying up naked). So I drove right through that open door and we had a long, very explicit dirty WHatsapp convo with her calling me “Sir” etc. Very compliant – I told her to send me a dirty voice… Read more »
@Blaximus Fucking lol at your story. “It shouldn’t be about ” them “, the entire realm of sex. It’s for me. What we like can provide mutual pleasure. I don’t have a ” got mine, get yours ” outlook. I have a ” fuck you so good you pass out, wake up and make me a sandwich, and tell me I’m the motherfucking MAN ” attitude.” Yup. Same with me. I’m ultimately not down there for HER enjoyment, I’m down there because I know she’s going to be end up a quivering helpless shaking mess that can’t form words and… Read more »
@Sun Wukong Also if you snag Julien’s SHIFT there’s a few vids in there about analyzing your night that might help you, like he talks about how to look back on your night and break it down and look for your sticking points etc No one gets good at game without analyzing their nights out, that’s why we put such an emphasis on Field Reports. If you went to a football forum and said “man I fucking suck, I lost us the game tonight” they’ll all pat you on the back and sympathize, but in terms of you actually getting… Read more »
@Jeremy @Anonymous Reader “So yeah, it’s very believable to me that humans naturally seek out a belief in things turning out different…Because it has to, or else they’ll go nuts.” I agree with everything Jeremy wrote there. The trick is that in 2016 we have enough instant stimulus that we can go to our shitty job we hate doing the same mundane routine thing every day but to avoid going insane we can just flip on the TV or the internet or whatever and FIND a bunch of new shit that balances out that mundane repetitive life. Our brain is… Read more »
like even if you went out and got drunk with buddies you probably weren’t approaching girls you were probably just “partying” and staying in your nice safe comfort zone. Ahhhhhh, truth. Those days were fun days, though no point painting them with rose-colored glasses. Lots of sexual frustration filled those days. Lot of empty time with not much to do, no real mission, no real growth, no real learning. The field-scratch that, life in general tells you what your sticking points are, all the time, as long as you actually pay attention. Most people just cruise through life with their… Read more »
@Sun: ” . . . this dude wanted to fight and I defused it by saying “I know what’s going on here, and I ain’t looking to stir shit” Dude, you did fantastic. Why do you think you fucked up? “That’s a hotter bitch than I’ve had a chance with in 3 fucking years.” Scarcity mindset. SNL is not the measure of social skills. Getting every girl you want is not the measure of social skills. These are just one aspect of social skills. Not getting sucked into conflicts that aren’t yours and in which you can gain no advantage… Read more »
@YaReally Thanks for breaking down that episode. Really helpful. I wish I didn’t watch it before I went to bed though. I had images of that dude walking through the club running through my brain all night… lol. Anyway, I followed along fairly well. I’ve gotten much better at noticing subtle stuff just be reading the breakdowns on your archive. But anyway, here’s where I didn’t follow: “He could already bang her in the bathroom right now” Like could you tell that just by her reactions up to that point? Like just by him passing that stare down shit test… Read more »
@Forge the Sky Thanks for your answer! I do look for reading material, the thing is, as I’ve said before, there is so much info out there that I end up paralysed. I don’t know where to start. For instance, I went to the NextASF forums (YaReally mentioned in one of the Scray’s FR’s by the name Sedfast, I believe) and I ended up in one thread that they questioned if the Mystery Method is still good. Which made me scratch my head since I was reading MM material. I will get my ass out 1 time per week and… Read more »
@ADBG “Those days were fun days, though no point painting them with rose-colored glasses. Lots of sexual frustration filled those days. Lot of empty time with not much to do, no real mission, no real growth, no real learning. ” Before I got into pickup back when my buddies and I didn’t know anything about talking to girls, I had one buddy I would go out to bars regularly with. Like 2-3 nights a week, for a year straight. The funny part is, when we look back on it we have NO IDEA WHAT WE WERE DOING FOR 4 HOURS.… Read more »
“It’s like, all I have to see is someone be successful ONCE, and that tells me “ok it can be DONE, and if I can figure out HOW it was done, I can consistently do it”.”
Roger Bannister was the fastest miler in the world for only one day. There were a number of milers who could beat him on any given day, but they didn’t break 4 minutes until a slower runner showed them it could be done.
Then, and only then, could they actually do it.
“Ben Affleck as Batman with a greying beard is going to do wonders for us older guys lol”
Yeah haha, I’ve got some grey in my beard this winter. Thanks for the reply. Glad to see you back. I had this vision that you pulled a Lamar Odom and locked yourself in a movie theater binge watching Star Wars and banging girls until your body gave out and you ended up in coma looking like El Chapo. lol. Little peak into my fucked up brain.
@YaReally, my knee-jerk reaction to the male stripper’s game was, “Man, he’s lame and is going to fail like some of the other good looking dudes that didn’t have game did on this show.” After watching him not fail, I still had the same feeling as the judges did that somehow this guy didn’t seem like he was doing much or had as much skill as, say, Cajun. But, now I see that he did what you said works (subcoms mainly), so he does have skills. Although I personally think he’s boring, the girls apparently don’t, and that’s all that… Read more »
At this point, YaReally, getting drunk at home is much more fun than clubbing (for me).
Guy’s time at the bars is reserved for Blackhawks games now. Little expensive to drink 2-3 times a week when you have a car loan and a mortgage to pay, lol.
@Culum “I’m not sure if you realize how much you sound like YaReally now.” i hadn’t noticed, but it would make sense a lot of that may boil down to being way less anal about comments typed on the internet on my end like.. i get PAID to write well and THINK and analyze and blah blah blah so if i’m not getting PAID i just think to myself ‘psh, why bother with all of that shit?’ ” my T-level was 1250, but I’m not sure how much of that is “free”.” the total t is a cool number to… Read more »
@culum
and what i mean by less anal is like….
ya is only worried about CONTENT. he’s not worried about bullshit like ‘omg is this semi-colon in the right place omg omg omg’
fuck flowery bullshit. the ideas are what matter. you have good ideas on the page, you can present them how you like.
@YaReally That was a pretty badass break down. No I did not notice any of those things before. I tried to get that coach I mentioned, or anyone else from the lair, to take a look at it and get their take, but so far all I got was: “If he’s consistently linking to RSD and Simple PickUp, then that’s all I need to hear to know he’s an idiot.” I really want to believe looks don’t matter at all, and take your word for it on so many things, but I have seen a LOT of signs over the… Read more »
“Five foot nine inches is not short.”
In the world where 80% of men are of below average looks, anything not tall is short.
Fun update…. Had another big fight with my wife yesterday after I got pissed at her and yelled at her for the house being a mess. I only got pissed because I was trying to clean a few things up and she started bitching at me for making too much noise while I was doing it lol. WTF. I didn’t apologize like I would have in the past and was calm after I initially yelled at her. Today she texts me at working saying she wants to go to a marriage counseling (obv. shit test). I rebuff that saying that… Read more »
@Dutch, I rarely endorse Athol, but your case is the exception.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/08/how-walkaway-wives-run-a-dirty-map/
Your wife is signaling divorce. The medium is the message and she’s testing your awareness of her plan to separate. Suggesting marriage counseling is part of the process of her absolving herself of responsibility for the divorce she’s already planned in her head. The absolution is one where she can say she tried to keep it together when her goal was to rid herself of you.
100% agree. Can confirm all of this. If she has any disposable income, she could very well already have lawyer on retainer and is building her case for family support and to demonize you. I also agree that therapists don’t work. But building the mindset that Rollo and others teach can turn things around if you want to. Going to therapy will simply buy you time to work on yourself as you’ve already started. She won’t file divorce if you are actively appearing to be “working on it in therapy.” In fact, if she’s already made the decision to leave,… Read more »
You know who else went that route? EVERY FUCKING PUA FROM THE 2000s lol And how did a lot of THOSE guys turn out? Fucked UP. Why? Because a lot of them were basing their self-worth on external shit. We KNOW this fucks guys up long-term and we know it ends up adding years to the learning curve where the guy has to unwire a bunch of bad programming he’s wired up because he listened to shit like “you better have a long enough dick brah” and been focused on his externals and puts all his worth in them. And… Read more »
The mansplaining Berniebro is getting thrown under the bus by feminists. This, after feminism saved his life. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/move-over-berniebros-a-wave-of-young-women-is-boosting-bernie-sanders-20160112
@Dutchman, if you missed it, go back to this comment of mine and all the advice that followed in the comments. Invaluable (I bet if you recorded one day of her at home with a small voice recorder, you’d find out much more). http://therationalmale.com/2015/12/16/open-relationships/#comment-131929
@newly
I remember that post. I’ve read text conversations where she says very negative things about me, though never that she wants a divorce.
@Rollo
Rollo, I read the article, then I read Athol’s description of “Phase IV.” Am I correct in thinking that this is basically a fork in the road, and that I HAVE to pull her in a completely different direction right now?
Kitten, aren’t you yourself divorced and then subsequently found red pill philosophy? Mind sharing a bit about how your divorce played out. Not judging you but would it fit the bill as a “frivorce”?
@Rollo,
Do you have a link I can read to make sure I am on the same page as to what “frivorce” is before I reply? Thank you
@Dutchaman Yes, I am divorced. I have been divorced 7 years. There are some things I can’t comment on as I’m not anonymous with my name, however I am willing share as much as I can if you think it would help. I am willing to share more private details, if necessary, by email.
Kitten
@Dutchman: I concur with Rollo’s insight: the overt communication is designed for self-absolution. If you’ve not already been given ultimatums expect them soon. Likewise expect her to “reach out” to your social circle and extended family for volunteers to try to white-knight you back into [whatever].
Bored wife divorces beta husband for being too boring, basically.
Marriage counseling = Last stop before toll.
No that wasn’t my experience. There were other obstacles. However, the execution of the divorce happened in the exact same way as that of many women I know who divorced from boredom and perceiving that the grass was greener on the other side. Once I made the decision to leave I made the case to friends and family in secret. They reacted with surprise, sadness and concern. They want to know “why” she can’t say why. I had a good reason but still it was “unbelievable” in that no one had seen evidence of it. So I built my case… Read more »
Rollo, I know you typically don’t get prescriptive but any thoughts on what/how I should say no, I don’t want to go to marriage counseling.
@Dutchman: Take care of yourself, brother.
@Dutchman: if you want try passing by the Married Red Pill subreddit (google it). Sometimes you can go too fast in applying Red Pill. This doesn’t matter much in pick up but it can matter for an LTR.
@Dutch, first read what Kitten has offered here. Bear in mind that before women even consider the financial and lifestyle logistics of leaving a husband, their first reflexive preparation is to protect her ego. Thus, she consults with family and friends to ’till the soil’ for her already planned departure from the marriage. As Kitten illustrates, a woman’s first subconscious thought isn’t about how a divorce will affect your children or you or your family structure, or even how the final legal and life-impacting fallout will settle for her. No, it’s all about her and how she will be perceived.… Read more »
@kfg “But before a woman makes a decision to leave, often there is a lot of build up. Women tell each other lies like “oh poor you, you deserve better.” These women have no idea what is on the other side or even what is inside that woman’s walls. It’s a false flattery and coddling. It’s destructive cruelty, packaged with a bow. It’s often not a conscious thing but I believe it stems from an unspoken desire to watch others fall. ” Agree 100% that it is ultimately motivated by a desire to watch other fall. “What happened next surprised… Read more »
@Rollo Thanks for your insight and all you do for men. I truly appreciate it. At this point I’m going to work on self improvement in hopes that it leads to more attraction from the wife on the chance that she isn’t checked out. Or even if she is, to get her checked back in or something. And if that doesn’t work, I’ll be better positioned for post-married life. I haven’t talked to ANY of my friends or family about this. I guess I should probably do that, if for no other reason than to start building up a support… Read more »
@Dutchman, I did not help my ex. He got screwed by the lawyers. I did it to protect my kids. You are still the enemy.
kfg, I meant to reply to this:
@Dutchman: Take care of yourself, brother.
Thanks dude, I’ll be okay, one way or the other. Regardless of how this shit plays out, at least I have the advantage that I fully understand what is going on, and it won’t be such a shock to my system.
@Dutch I don’t know how old your wife is, but my wife has a couple single friends/relatives over 30… Let me tell ya. Pickings are SLIM out there for those chicks. Haha, actually they’re always good for a few funny stories. Like old guys in dad jeans that keep injured raccoons for pets and shit like that. lol. They usually end up having to decide to marry some EXTREME beta guy or just stay single. Oh, and in my facebook feed there’s all these single chicks from High School – Even the one’s that don’t have kids, I’ll see their… Read more »
I might need to clarify, I didn’t hold back the armies to protect my ex. I held back the armies to protect my children from unnecessary drama and pain.
Divorce went forward with the ex.
Kitten, you’re on good terms with him now. I’m not saying my wife would be sunshine and roses DURING a divorce, but a few years down the road, I think she’d be able to get along and cooperate with the kids and stuff, as in your situation.
“At this point I’m going to work on self improvement . . . ”
Just make sure the self improvement includes improvement of your legal position.
And stop calling Kitten Shirley.
@dutchman I would hope so. It’s best for everyone. I don’t see it happen often.
@Dutchman: just to reiterate what others have said: you will get what you want. What do you want?
@Andy Honestly, IF she’s hesitating, I think she’s probably hesitating because she doesn’t think she could better than me, being in her thirties with kids, etc. I may act beta with her but I get massive IOIs everywhere we go. We were at some holiday thing for the kids a few weeks ago and I caught nearly every milfy chick there checking me out at some point and I’m sure she did too. That’s why I said earlier in the thread that I don’t care about getting fat. I’m completely confident that my looks/height are enough to get me initial… Read more »
@Dutch We obviously don’t know the full history or dynamic but one thing is pretty clear. Your wife is expert at pushing your buttons and knocking you completely out of your frame and into hers. Couple that with you being stuck in Anger Phase and it makes a toxic combination. IMO, this is job one for you. You need to be the immovable rock. Life is all about choices… what you do and what you allow. You allow her to invade your calm and you choose to retaliate. I agree with @IAS, visiting MRP for supplemental reading may be beneficial.… Read more »
SJB, to pull her back into my frame and get her to follow my lead like she COMPLETELY did when we first got together. What CaveClown achieved with his wife is my template.
Don’t forget that society is actually pushing that having a man at all is a sign of weakness. Single Mom Doing It All (TM) is perceived as high status in the Female Group. And if she’s attractive at all, there are plenty of guys in their twenties and thirties to keep her busy no strings attached.
Kitten, did you feel like he deserved everything your “armies” were throwing at him at the time? Did you find yourself wishing that you didn’t have to hold them back?
No he didn’t deserve it. If I thought he deserved it I would have sold tickets to watch the slaughter.
“Don’t forget that society is actually pushing that having a man at all is a sign of weakness. Single Mom Doing It All (TM) is perceived as high status in the Female Group. And if she’s attractive at all, there are plenty of guys in their twenties and thirties to keep her busy no strings attached.”
She has always claimed to despise that mentality (but I know, don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do).
@Dutchman,
She’s protecting her status. As soon as her status changes, so will her tune.
Just before my divorce, the wife wanted a trial separation. That slapped the cluelessness right out of me. Exit visas were already prepared. I immediately contacted a lawyer and moved to protect myself, but strangely enough, she didn’t want anything but out of the marriage. I was completely crushed and devastated. She went on a cruise to Mexico with her girlfriends. Evidently she’d made up her mind a year prior. Everything else was just mindless fluff. I’ve been following Dutch’s posts for a while but I don’t have anything more to offer him than what’s been offered already. Friends and… Read more »
Ironically, not long after I suggested Dutch check MRP, my wife hit me with the following comfort/shit test(s): “It’s good to be prepared in case you decide to go away.” I replied that it is great if she doesn’t need me (I had the stance that I don’t want her to need me, I want her to want me, even prior to Red Pill). Context (incomplete): the thing she did was after she did something computer related, she would usually ask me to do it or ask me for advice, and I congratulated her for being a bit more self-sufficient… Read more »
@Dutchman What Blax wrote about “enablers” is so true. Reminds me of the song, “How Long Has This Been Going On”. Well your friends and their fancy persuasions Wont admit that it’s part of a scheme But I can’t help but have my suspicions Cause I ain’t quite as dumb as I seem. You already know…don’t you? The advice you’ve received is so solid, anything else I could say would be superfluous. I’ve taken buckshot, have had to dig up money, weapons, save a car from going over a bridge, just because there were some who pretended not to know.… Read more »
OK Dutch. Here I go. You just got some awareness from Rollo and Kitten. You need prescriptive advice. I am an advocate for staying with the marriage. Which no doubt will suck, but so would divorce and her, the mom of you kids hating your guts for screwing the kids out of two parent household. Sure that goes against the grain here, but I have a simple reason. It is for the kids. I may have been listening a bit to Dr. Laura Schlessinger lately, but she is the only one that seems to have an adequate perspective on these… Read more »
@YaReally
I just got PIMP. watching the pillars now.
Amituofo
I’ll make you proud, sensei.
Welp, couple of things before I hop over to the newest article. First – sounds like you’re getting better at this whole ‘game’ thing, Sun Wukong. It’s actually a more frustrating game when you start getting soo close from time to time. Past that, i was just basically gonna say what YaReally wrote to you. The field shows you your weak points and insecurities, you can’t hide from them. It’s therapy, in the end. Even with a good therapist you’ll learn workarounds so that they don’t trigger your ego investments after a while. Second, I’m kinda laughing at the whole… Read more »
Finally, Dutchman You’ve got a lot of view from the ground. Lemme toss out some view from the sky. SJF’s recc to bang the 48 laws into your head may seem a bit odd, but that is the core and center of what you need now. Fundamentally, what you lack is power. Part of that is due to your own personal charisma (or lack thereof) and you can begin to help that with game – though it takes a while for it to ‘take’ fully. However, a lot of that lack of power comes from other sources. Women hate a… Read more »
Oh, meant to add re: Dutchman
She’s gonna try and create a narrative where her leaving you is not only a good idea, but necessary and heroic. Once she does that, you can’t turn back. You can’t hold back the hounds and neither can she, and even if she ends up deciding that she wants to stay with you she’ll still divorce your ass because otherwise she’ll be going against the narrative and people will judge her.
That’s the rubicon, and it can’t be crossed halfway.
I’ve been put into spam hell – holy shit, was Andy right – I was just fucking around with the fat guy, seriously. I got what YaReally said about all this last time around and had no problem with it. A few points: Ya – You have never been the victim of my hostility. What you were saying about cam girls flew in the face of fairly recent experience with the real world – but when I dug deeper I readily admitted it. Let’s be clear, I disagreed with you and then came into agreement. I’m hostile to others. I… Read more »
I LOVE YaReally, really, but of course he doesn’t know what it’s like to be 53 Scrib. I, on the other hand, hear you loud and clear with my 54 year old ears ( the eyes are going…slowly, but I can still ” hear ” through them on TRM ). To accomplish what you’re going for will take patience, time and effort. IMO young chicks are so flighty sometimes that older, rational guys have a harder time figuring out how to deal with them in a sexual manner. ” … That said, I game every women I meet, and work… Read more »
Nice Blax. I Lol’d at then then I went to use the bathroom and check my blood sugar. Meanwhile, my wife sat down at my desk in the library to file the W-2 forms I brought home today into the tax files. And your post was on the big screen on the computer. She came back into the living room and proceeded to call me a fucking asshole for reading shit like that. “You (referring to me) and your Alpha shit and your treating women badly (she made that up) and your online friends talking about that and how to… Read more »
SJF-
damn. I hope I didn’t upset the apple cart too much.
Re: Raising voice. I last raised my voice Thanksgiving of 2014. It was a doosy. It is necessary sometimes. That’s all.
Lol see, I didn’t even think Blax’s comment was all that crazy. Just a funny story with a bit of edge to it. Just a reminder of how ‘out there’ redpill is to most people.
Shows how strong the FI is – not allowed to call even random fat girls she’s never met fat, strange.
In this case of course it also has to do with a fear of her not being in control of you.
Forge-
Maybe it was my attempt to hurt Teh Feelz of the rotund female who was trying to age-shame me.
It wasn’t hitting below the belt because if there was a belt on her, it would never be seen by human eyes again. As Bill Cosby said, she had Donelap disease. That’s where her belly done-lapped over her belt.
Nope, you’re good in my book Blaximus. This was one of those occasions. She tried to cross the Rubicon two years ago. I headed her off at the pass and she’s still pissed that I foiled her plans. Pretty much by shouldering my burden of performance and improving and working on game. It’s just an extinction burst with her reverting to what used to work. She’s victim to feeling my soft dread and she’s created a false narrative that from my red-pill self-improvement that I’ll turn into an angry Jerk who she doesn’t want to get with. Which ain’t happening.… Read more »
Another post presenting undeniable truth.
Lol see, I didn’t even think Blax’s comment was all that crazy. Just a funny story with a bit of edge to it. Just a reminder of how ‘out there’ redpill is to most people. The story is hilarious to red pill eyes. Completely taken out of context by blue pill eyes. Feminine imperative eyes can’t possibly see how shaming a man for being 54 can possibly be a slight to red pill eyes and calling out fatness with riposte is evil. Shows how strong the FI is – not allowed to call even random fat girls she’s never met… Read more »
Blaximus didn’t even call her fat first, he *just asked her how much she weighted* and only call her fat girl after she started screaming.
YaReally – thanks dude, that’s amazing as usual. As a starting point, I did some googling and got her to take her panties off at lunchtime and go without underwear at work the rest of the day. And I told her she couldn’t play with herself till she got home, no matter how turned on she got being naughty. That seems to have gone down well, and I don’t want to overdo it, so I figure I’ll keep things at a boil by giving her orders every 2-3 days till I meet her next weekend (most likely) and will keep… Read more »
And scray – I just saw your post.
Yup, 165 at 5’10” – I don’t lift at all (starting now and going slow because I have some chronic back issues and have had for years). Not even sure of my body fat – 20-21% maybe? Basically not overweight but..soft.
I hadn’t thought about the writing style as “content is king”..but yeah that’s a good way to think about it.
@scribblerg “you 30 yr old kids don’t know shit about it.” “The social complexities of Old Man Game are different” “I am pushing the boundaries of something most of you guys can’t even begin to comprehend” “so perhaps Ya, you should tap the brakes realize that even you, Sensei, may not know what it’s like to game under 25 yo hotties at 53. Just sayin’…” Do you think the PUA community doesn’t have 50+yo guys in it? Do you think a guy who goes out regularly doesn’t know older guys in the nightlife? Do you think the high-end scene isn’t… Read more »
@ Ya
scribblerg is right in stating that “old man’s game” differs fundamentally in some aspects. He is also right in stating that there are limitations to old man’s reality.
In his personal development I consider him to be in his anger phase.
We – as his fellow-men – should aknowledge and appreciate that and try to support so that he can find his way out.
Having already given so much usefful advices based on profound insights you should know that.
@newlyaloof “But, now I see that he did what you said works (subcoms mainly), so he does have skills.” He’s technically running game, but it’s all subconscious and just a byproduct of his lifestyle. A lot of Naturals have solid subcomms because they spend so much time around women, whereas the newbie who’s never touched a girl before is wild-eyed and reactive infield. “I think if this dude was a stripper (which he is), had a great body (which he does) but didn’t have the matching attitude, he’d eventually get blown out of the water.” Yup. Plenty of good-looking guys… Read more »
@digireaper “in one thread that they questioned if the Mystery Method is still good” Ya it’s a shame. The quality old stuff is being discarded by guys who don’t even really read it, or don’t get how to bend and flex it to account for how things have changed in society. It’s really sad to see. I would put guys on a diet of Mystery Method (I prefer the seminar where he teaches it over the PDF, I like Mystery’s passion for what he’s teaching, the vids were on YouTube at some point), Liam Mcrae’s Rapid Escalation video on YouTube,… Read more »
@zip “We – as his fellow-men – should aknowledge and appreciate that and try to support so that he can find his way out.” There’s a point where a guy gets comfortable enough in the anger phase that he makes an identity out of it and perpetuates it longer than he should, stunting his overall growth and reveling in it. scribblerg has made an identity out of being the “fuck you I’ll knock your fucking teeth in, you don’t know shit about anything, get the fuck out of here don’t you dare post about this shit around me, fuck you… Read more »
Not much time to post lately and am glad to see SJF coming off his sabbatical. Blax: “Ahem, I gotta cut back on the large cups of arrogance though. I musta had way too many today. It’s YaReally’s fault.” NO, don’t stop! That shit is great. Dutch, what everybody else wrote is spot on. I am a rookie with TRP but can tell you from marriage and a current LTR than the power SJF refers to is spot on. This isn’t me saying I read something and gee, that could work. It’s real life experience in the past three months… Read more »
Roused, congratulations on your progress with your son and daughter. Keep working on the concept of having a core group of good guy friends. There is infinite upside to that. Choose wisely and treat kindly. And yes, reading between the lines in the fifth paragraph your comment: In a man’s relationship with another woman, interacting socially with other high quality men and women is a key component to relationship game. It should not be neglected. Dutchman is in too deep a hole to concentrate on this currently, but other men need to know not to neglect this from the start.… Read more »
@Dutchman,
Tell her you’d do the counseling, but only after she knows you you truly feel about:
1. Her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-T_-OW50jQ
2. Your family:
Don’t have time to reply to everyone who gave me advice today but thanks to ALL of you. Just wanted to hit a few points: “In a man’s relationship with another woman, interacting socially with other high quality men and women is a key component to relationship game. It should not be neglected. Dutchman is in too deep a hole to concentrate on this currently, but other men need to know not to neglect this from the start.” I’m definitely deficient in my social interactions with high quality men but pretty good with other women (milfs in public, her friends,… Read more »
@ YaReally There’s a point where a guy gets comfortable enough in the anger phase that he makes an identity out of it and perpetuates it longer than he should, stunting his overall growth and reveling in it. […]Time to let that go, […] Signed. Though it can turn out to be a hard job letting that anger go. Women’s demeanour and their conduct towards average Joe is apt to trigger old, old pain that has its origins in lots of much earlier experiences of being neglected, shamed, belittled, hated, misused and/or manipulated. Thus it’s not surprising that many of… Read more »
YaReally to SunWuKong: It’s painful to do, because it hurts the ego to walk away…but accidentally killing the guy or ending up disfigured isn’t going to help you on this journey lol Important, this. A churchgoing man I know works in a counseling / ministry group that goes into state prisons. One of the first prisoners he worked with was a man in his late 20’s, seemed pretty normal, and in fact he was. That man just happened to get into a bar fight in his early 20’s, and long story short some other man wound up dead, apparently by… Read more »