The Red Pill Parent

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This week I’ll be exploring a new angle in the Red Pill: how parenting and family relations influence and direct the Blue Pill conditioning of a generation, and what Red Pill aware men can do to redirect this. It was encouraging to see fathers and sons together at the Man In Demand conference. I honestly wasn’t expecting this, but it was a humbling experience to see fathers and sons coming to a Red Pill awareness together. I also met with a few men who told me their sons had either turned them on to my books or that they would be required reading for their sons before they got out of their teens.

One of the greatest benefits of the conference was the inspiration and material I got from the men attending. A particular aspect of this was addressing how men might educate and help others to unplug and in that lay a wealth of observations about how these men’s upbringings had brought them to both their Blue Pill idealisms and ultimately their Red Pill awareness.

I’m beginning this series with some of these observations, but I plan to break protocol and be a bit more proscriptive in the last essay with regard to what I think may be beneficial ways to be a Red Pill parent. In The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine I included a chapter which outlined how men are primarily conditioned for lives and ego-investments in a Blue Pill idealism that ultimately prepares them for better serving the Feminine Imperative when their usefulness is necessary to fulfill women’s sexual (and really lifetime) strategies.

That chapter is only available in the book, but if you have it, it might be helpful to review it after you read this.

Reader (and MiD conference attendee) Jeremy had an excellent observation from Solipsism II:

@Capper

The only thing I take issue with is the advice, from the book that his wife read, which told her to place her husband above her children. Children come first for a mother, and they should for the father too. I’m not advocating to neglect her husband, but he needs to accept some biological facts and not be hurt because of it

What you’re repeating there is actually the first steps of a hostage crisis. That is first-wave-feminism boilerplate response. It is the first redirection in a misdirection perpetuated by women in order to sink any notion that men should have some authority on matters. Think of the children. It’s been repeated for so long, it’s a cliche…

It’s typical crab-basket behavior. Women seek power over their lives and somehow instinctively believe that the only way to achieve power is to take someone else’s power away. So they attack male authority by placing children above the man. This then becomes a stick with which to beat male authority into submission, as the woman is allowed to speak for the needs of the children. This is literally textbook subversion, and plays out on so many levels of human culture it tends to make one consider how boring humanity must look to any alien life that happens to stumble across our unremarkable corner of the universe.

When the children’s needs become the “throne” of the household, and the wife is allowed to speak for the children’s needs, then the authority of the household becomes a rather grotesque combination of immediate child needs and female manipulation. Worse still, the children are now effectively captives of the wife, because at any time she can accuse the husband of anything the law is forced to throw him in handcuffs for, and take away the kids.

What you’re repeating is the first steps in that hostage situation. Equalists will try to convince you of the logic that children come first, that children are the future, that all of that which makes them better is more important than anything else. This is bullshit.

Do you think cavemen sat around in caves all day playing and socially interacting with their babies? Do you think they had some kind of fresh-gazelle-delivery service that allowed him to interact with the children directly? Do you think the mothers were not under exactly the same survival condition, needing to forage for carrots, potatoes, berries, etc, while the men hunted and built structures? Do you think the “children” came first in any other era of humanity? If so, you are very sadly mistaken.

Children are more than capable of getting everything they need to know about how to live simply by watching their parents live a happy life together. This is how humans did things for eons, changing that order and putting the “children first” is frankly perverse and the beginning of the destruction of the family. Children are more than information sponges, they are blank minds that want desperately to be adult. Children want to understand everything that everyone around them understands, which is why a parent telling a child that you’re “disappointed” in them is more effective than a paddling. If you focus on children, you are frankly just spoiling them with attention that they will never receive in the real world. If instead you focus on yourself and your spouse, you will raise children that see you putting yourself as the MPO (as Rollo calls it), and your marriage/partnership as an important part of what you do each day.

Don’t put the children first. That’s essentially like negotiating with a terrorist, they’ll only make more demands on you until the cops storm the plane and lots of people get shot.

Your Mental Point of Origin should never waver from yourself.

American Parenting is Killing American Marriage

Of course, Ayelet Waldman’s blasphemy was not admitting that her kids were less than completely wonderful, only that she loved her husband more than them. This falls into the category of thou-shalt-have-no-other-gods-before-me. As with many religious crimes, judgment is not applied evenly across the sexes. Mothers must devote themselves to their children above anyone or anything else, but many wives would be offended if their husbands said, “You’re pretty great, but my love for you will never hold a candle to the love I have for John Junior.”

Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex. A father could admit to desiring his wife without seeming like a distracted parent, but society is not as willing to cut Ms. Waldman that same slack. It is unseemly for a mother to enjoy pleasures that don’t involve her children.
There are doubtless benefits that come from elevating parenthood to the status of a religion, but there are obvious pitfalls as well. Parents who do not feel free to express their feelings honestly are less likely to resolve problems at home. Children who are raised to believe that they are the center of the universe have a tough time when their special status erodes as they approach adulthood. Most troubling of all, couples who live entirely child-centric lives can lose touch with one another to the point where they have nothing left to say to one another when the kids leave home.
In the 21st century, most Americans marry for love. We choose partners who we hope will be our soulmates for life. When children come along, we believe that we can press pause on the soulmate narrative, because parenthood has become our new priority and religion. We raise our children as best we can, and we know that we have succeeded if they leave us, going out into the world to find partners and have children of their own. Once our gods have left us, we try to pick up the pieces of our long neglected marriages and find new purpose. Is it surprising that divorce rates are rising fastest for new empty nesters? Perhaps it is time that we gave the parenthood religion a second thought.

I think these quotes outline the dynamic rather well; a method of control women can use to distract and defer away from Beta husbands is a simple appeal to their children’s interests as being the tantamount to their own or their husbands. If the child sits at the top of that love hierarchy and that child’s wellbeing and best interests can be defined by the mother, the father/husband is relegated to subservience to both the child and the mother.

This gets back to the preternatural Empathy myth that women, by virtue of just being a woman, has some instinctual, empathetic insight about placing that child above all else. That child becomes a failsafe and a buffer against having to entertain a real relationship with the father/husband and really consider his position in her Hypergamous estimate of him.

If that man isn’t what her Hypergamous instinct estimates him being as optimal (he’s the unfortunate Beta), then “she’s tolerating his presence for the kids’ sake.” Jeremy was responding to a comment made by Capper about an incident where a woman was being encouraged to put her husband before her kids in that love hierarchy priority. The fact that this is so unnatural for a woman that it would need to be something necessary to train a woman to speaks volumes about the facility with which women presume that their default priority ought to be for her kids.

Most men buy into this prioritization as well. It seems deductively logical that a woman would necessarily need to put her child’s attention priorities well above her husband’s. What’s counterintuitive to both parents is that it’s the health of their relationship (or lack) that defines and exemplifies the complementary gender understanding of the child. Women default to using their children as cats paws to assume primary authority of the family, and men are already preconditioned to accept this as the normative frame for the family.

As with all your relations with women, establishing a strong Frame is essential. The problem for men with even the strongest initial Frame with their wives is that they cede that Frame to their kids. Most men want the very best for their children; or there may be a Promise Keepers dynamic that guy is dealing with an makes every effort to outdo, and make up for, the sins of his father by sacrificing everything, but in so doing he loses sight of creating and maintaining a dominant Frame for not just his wife, but the state of his family.

It’s important to bear in mind that when you set the Frame of your relationship, whether it’s a first night lay or a marriage prospect, women enter your reality and your frame – the same needs to apply to any children within that relationship. Far too many fathers are afraid to embody that strong authority and expect their wives (and children) to recognize what should be his primary place in the family.

The fear is that by assuming this position they become the typical asshole father they hoped to avoid for most of their formative years. Even for men with strong masculine role models in their lives, the hesitation comes from a culture that ridicules fathers, or presumes they are potentially violent towards children. Thus the abdication of fatherly authority, in as positive a tense as possible, is abdicated before that child is even born.

Ectogenesis

At the Man in Demand conference last weekend I had a young guy ask me what my thoughts were about a man’s being interested in becoming a single parent of his own accord. I had this same question posed to me during my second interview with Christian McQueen and essentially it breaks down to a man supplying his own sperm, buying a suitable woman’s viable ovum to fertilize himself, and, I presume, hire a surrogate mother to carry that child to term. Thereupon he takes custody of that child and raises it himself as a single father.

In theory this arrangement should work out to something similar to a woman heading off the the sperm bank to (once again Hypergamously) select a suitable sperm donor and become a single parent of her own accord. It’s interesting that we have institutions and facilities like sperm banks to ensure women’s Hypergamy, but men, much less heterosexual men, must have exceptional strength of purpose and determination to do so.

Despite dealing with the very likely inability of the surrogate mother to disentangle her emotional investment in giving birth to a child she will never raise (hormones predispose women to this) a man must be very determined financially and legally to become a single father by choice. In principle I understand the sentiment of Red Pill men wanting to raise a child on their own. The idea is to do so free from the (at least direct) influence of the Feminine Imperative. However, I think this is in error.

My feelings on this are two part. First, being a complementarian, it is my belief that a child requires two healthy adult parents, male and female, with a firm, mature grasp of the importance, strengths and weaknesses of their respective gender roles (based on biological and evolutionary standards). Ideally they should exemplify and demonstrate those roles in a healthy fashion so as a boy or a girl can learn about masculinity and femininity from their respective parents’ examples.

Several generations after the sexual revolution, and after several generations of venerating feminine social primacy, we’ve arrived at a default collective belief that single mothers can perform the function of modeling and shaping masculinity in boys as well as femininity in girls equally well. The underlying social message in that is that women/mothers can be a one woman show with regard to parenting and thus men, fathers or the buffoons mainstream culture portrays them as, are superfluous to parenting – nice to have around, but not vital. This belief also finds fertile ground in the notion that men are obsolete.

Secondly, for all the equalist emphasis of Jungian gender theories about anima/animus and balancing feminine and masculine personality interests, it is evidence of an agenda to suggest that a woman is equally efficient in teaching and modeling masculine aspects to children as well as any positively masculine man. With that in mind, I think the reverse would be true for a deliberately single father – even with the best of initial intents.

Thus, I think a father might serve as a poor substitute for a woman when it comes to exemplifying a feminine ideal. The argument then of course is that, courtesy of a feminine-centric social order, women have so divorced themselves of conventional femininity that perhaps a father might teach a daughter (if not demonstrate for her) a better feminine ideal than a woman. Conventional, complementary femininity is so lost on a majority of women it certainly seems like logic for a man to teach his daughter how to recapture it.

Raising Betas

This was the trap that 3rd wave feminism fell into; the belief that they knew how best to raise a boy into their disempowered and emasculated ideal of their redefined masculinity. Teach that boy a default deference and sublimation to feminine authority, redefine it as respect, teach him to pee sitting down and share in his part of the choreplay, and well, the world is bound to be a better more cooperative place right?

So it is for these reason I think that the evolved, conventional, two-parent heterosexual model serves best for raising a child. I cannot endorse single parenthood for either sex. Parenting should be as collaborative and as complementary a partnership as is reflected in the complementary relationship between a mother and father.

It’s the height of gender-supremacism to be so arrogantly self-convinced as to deliberately choose to birth a child and attempt to raise it into the contrived ideal of what that “parent” believes the other gender’s role ought to be.

This should put the institutionalized social engineering agenda of the Feminine Imperative into stark contrast for anyone considering intentional single parenthood. Now consider that sperm banks and feminine-specific fertility institutions have been part of normalized society for over 60 years and you can see that Hypergamy has dictated the course of parenting for some time now. This is the definition of social engineering.

I’ll admit that when I got the question of single fatherhood I was a bit incredulous of the mechanics of it. Naturally it would be an expense most men couldn’t entertain. However, as promised, I did my homework on it, and found out that ectogenesis was yet another science-fiction-come-reality that feminists have already considered and have planned for:

Prominent feminists and activists, including Andrea Dworkin and Janice Raymond, have concluded that not only will women be further marginalized and oppressed by this eventuality, but they will become obsolete.

Fertility, and the ability to be the species’ reproductive engine, are virtually the only resources that women collectively control, they argue. And, although women do have other “value” in a patriarchal society–child rearing, for example–gestation remains, worldwide, the most important.  Even in the most female-denigrating cultures women are prized, if only, for their childbearing. If you take that away, then what? This technology becomes another form of violence.

Women already have the power to eliminate men and in their collective wisdom have decided to keep them. The real question now is, will men, once the artificial womb is perfected, want to keep women around?

[…]“We may find ourselves without a product of any kind with which to bargain,” she writes. “We have to ask, if that last power is taken and controlled by men, what role is envisaged for women in the new world? Will women become obsolete?”

This was a great article and it came at an auspicious time – the time we find women sweating about having their sexual market leverage with men potentially being undercut by sex-bots and/or immersive virtual sex substitutes.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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And Dalrock is a few doughnuts short of a full dozen. He also orbits on his own little planet confirming his own biases. Male solipsism, it’s a real things in the world.

Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy, dearie. Your reflexive Disqualify! doesn’t cut any ice in this place because this is a group of men, not one of your aging, postmenopausal, 2nd stage feminist hen parties.

Now run along, I bet your attic is getting stinky again…

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Atticus, likely you were force fed the same 2nd stage feminist crap that I was: Men and women are exactly the same except women have babies. Far too many tradcons have that crap in their heads as well, they just express it differently. Science has blown that out of the water. The fact that giving estrogen to men shrinks their brains ought to shut the mouth of every feminist, but of course it won’t. As for your father, yep, he likely assumed you’d just get it. My father was the same, he grew up among men, spent some time in… Read more »

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@Stingray

I would argue that in certain ways, it is harder for trad-con women to see this responsibility because they already believe they are following the traditional conservative role. To tell them that they actually are not is a slap to the face and can make it harder for them to see.

I assume by using the term trad-con women, you’re referring to women who did not ride the CC until 28, then become christian purely because it is a beta-husband-rich environment.

benfromtexas
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Stingray, that’s some good points. I like the way you worded it too. “Churchianity”

CaveClown
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I ran into that exact thing with my traditional conservative wife. Says she honors her husband, others tell her she honors her husband, bit behind the curtains is a very different story. Begrudgeingly doing chores, never mind “homemaking”, and then complaining about being a maid is not honoring. Using these values as leverage in the relationship is not honoring. Traditional chicks are very good at pretending the man is the head of the household, when the truth is that they only have headship with her permission and approval. Harsh reality that a chick that has seemingly traditional values is only… Read more »

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Rollo I just think it’s important to make a distinction between believing women’s words to the point of adjusting your own beliefs and behaviors, and listening to what she’s saying as an observation of behavior. Another way to think about this: women’s words are data, not facts. Often women will say what they wish was true rather than what is true, for example. It’s like asking a 12 year old “Did you do your math homework?” and the answer is “Uh….yeahhh…can I go play?”. The 12 year old wishes the math was done, even though it isn’t. So it is… Read more »

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Traditional values

Virgins

Good girls

All just various flavors of the same hypergamy.

Same chicks, different paint jobs.

Andy
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Hypergamy doesn’t care who you think is a “better man”.

I mean I suppose it’s possible women have zero interest in sexual variety. Is that your point? I find that hard to believe. You can’t tell me the mystery of an unknown man doesn’t impact her level of attraction. I mean did nobody else go to college? I got laid for two reasons. I was there. I had a penis. I didn’t see much hypergamous scrutinization.

Stingray
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it is about time.

Sorry I took so long! wink

Blaximus
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@ Jeremy ” After childbirth I am prone to give a woman a pass. They have a volatile hormonal cocktail inside of them and it takes many of them months to get fully back to being themselves. Why? Why assume that the presence of your sexuality in her life is bad for her during a hormonal mix? I was reading a while back that sex during menstruation, when done correctly, actually alleviates many of the symptoms of some women. I would argue that human life evolved to accommodate persistent male sexual needs in most aspects of a woman’s life, whether… Read more »

Stingray
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Jeremy,

What I mean by tradcon women is what CaveClown described above. A woman who touts traditional values but does not actually practice them. Most of the time, these women lead from the neck.

kfg
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“I didn’t see much hypergamous scrutinization.”

You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Look at the men who didn’t get laid. They were there too.

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benfromtexas,

Thank you but I can’t take credit for “churchianity”. It’s an old manosphere term.

Jeremy
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@CaveClown There’s a loose friend of mine, more like a nice guy who is a friend of a friend. I’ve been trying to introduce him to this stuff. He’s very very christian and is absolutely insistent that the woman he finds also be christian. He shares his stories with a friend of mine, who relates them to me. Almost without fail, the women he’s been dating for about the past 10 years all went to church purely to find a mark to use. They literally operated like con artists, pretending to be christian, pretending to agree with the teachings there,… Read more »

Andy
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You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Look at the men who didn’t get laid. They were there too.

Yeah, but you had to be REALLY strange or ugly. Those girls were fucking HORNY.

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@Atticus

” I have a hard time understanding how guys can appreciate hormones and shark week’s challenges, and not realize how a female body can be affect by child birth for longer than a few weeks. ”

… I’m finding this fascinating

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Jeremy,

Not surprised.

Looking back I think that is one of the reasons my oneitis is so strong, I thought I did it right.

Traditional, virgin, big tits.

So I ignored the dominating mother, weak father, and the obvious signs of crazy.

I thought I was doing better than all you fuckers out there banging those sluts…lol

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@Andy

I got laid for two reasons. I was there. I had a penis. I didn’t see much hypergamous scrutinization.

I could also look at the sunrise and say it happened for two reasons, the earth orbits the sun, and the earth rotates on it’s axis. This explanation completely ignores how and why nuclear fusion happens. Don’t over-simplify for your own benefit when there’s tremendous value in knowing the details.

kfg
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“Yeah, but you had to be REALLY strange or ugly.”

So, you did see it, even in a socially presorted environment, but disqualify it.

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy

It’s a true triumph of Third Wave Feminism that all women, regardless of their upbringing, assume they don’t need to bring anything to a long term relationship while a man has to bring the entire world. Hell all they have to be is a wet hole, and they only have to be that much until marriage. After that the Damocles Sword of modern divorce law hangs over the man’s head. All stick, no carrot. And they wonder why marriage rates are falling like a rock…

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At the moment, for me nihilism is where it’s at. Took the red pill 18 months ago, hit the gym, I’m 47 with a 30 year old main plate and 44 year old milf plate. I have one son 13 with my ex, would have liked more kids but now I just don’t believe in women they are not fit for purpose anymore. Basically have decided that at this point women are just for entertainment purposes, I’d hoped for so much more. I feel like I have had my purpose in life taken away from me and all I can… Read more »

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Jeremy, another way to put what Stingray is saying: “backleading”. Ask anyone who dances touch-dance (ballroom, tango, jitterbug, etc.) about the strong&independent women who keep trying to lead, even as they are dancing backwards. “Lead me, but only where I want to go” is another way to put it. I know several tradcon men whose wives are all about teh submission in public, but from what those men have let out in bits and fragments over the years, Dear Wifey ain’t always so nice in private. Julian O’Dea once noted that women tend to reserve their bad behavior for private… Read more »

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@Jeremy

I’ve had friends have similar experiences with women “posing” to be Christian to get a free ride. It’s amazing how common it is. Women go there after they’ve started to rot and their SMV is dropping like a rock. They also know that they can get more “control” over a lot of those men via having the church members help them out via peer pressure & male stupidity.

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@ Andy

” Meh, for the time that they’re nursing full time all they do is sleep, cry, and shit. I don’t know any guy that has gotten attached to their infant at that stage. I would hold them, but just to get them to stop crying. They’re much more fun when they can interact with you.”

This is why I love the comment section. Diverse opinions.

I was attached to both my children from birth. For my 2nd child I was in the delivery room and cut the cord. My experience is 180 degrees different from yours.

Andy
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If you’re tying to tell me that college girls don’t like variety then I don’t know what to say. There’s a variety stage in there. If a virgin finds a stud how does she know he’s a fucking stud if she hasn’t been around the block? Rollo even says this in Preventative Medicine. If she didn’t get the variety stage in the 20’s she’ll look for it in her 40’s.

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@Andy Yeah, but you had to be REALLY strange or ugly. Those girls were fucking HORNY. The vast majority of my friends and I were a bit strange (nerdy betas), but not ugly. We just weren’t hot. We weren’t getting laid at all most of the time. When we did, it was the FUMPs. Never the slightly above average chicks. Never mind the true hotties. Hypergamy was very much in play during college and even high school in my experience. I want you to try something for me: go to a coffee shop near a high school or a college,… Read more »

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@Blaximus & Atticus ” I have a hard time understanding how guys can appreciate hormones and shark week’s challenges, and not realize how a female body can be affect by child birth for longer than a few weeks. ” … I’m finding this fascinating Affected by? I never said not affected by. But I disagree with the automatic notion that the needs of the husband should automatically be curtailed. Somehow I really doubt that for most of the history of pre-language versions of humans, and in the 100,000 plus history of humanity that there was a significant portion of men… Read more »

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Stingray Trad-Con women, while I believe they still have some dissonance, have much less because they have the power of churchianity behind them. They have the other wives behind them, they have the white knight men of the church behind them and their pastor as well (the AMOG) whom they just so respect. Good point. I’m working up a set of links on male vs. female brains that I can drop as a stink bomb into any random “I Fucking Love Science” SJW crab pot. People who claim to “luv science” can get wound up into cognitive dissonance pretty fast… Read more »

kfg
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” . . . I’d hoped for so much more.”

Hope springs infernal. Hope was in Pandora’s box of evils, and the only one she managed to retain.

“But what’s it all about?”

Same thing it is for the sparrow, the elephant and the warthog. The problem with life not having a “higher” purpose is that it leaves you responsible for giving it purpose yourself. You have to take the blame for it.

On the other hand, you get to take the credit for it as well.

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@bluepillprofessor ” ..The problem is that women have almost TOTAL control over when, how, how much, and who they sex up. Society and conventions and law give them almost total power. By ceding the tiny bit of power the man still retains you feed the monster after midnight and turn your marriage into a low sex marriage overnight. The sex will NOT necessarily resume once she has total power over you. Nothing is less attractive to a woman than giving her all the power. So if you do, don’t be surprised when you post on /r/deadbedrooms in about 6 months… Read more »

kfg
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@Anonymous Reader: “I know several tradcon men whose wives are all about teh submission in public, but from what those men have let out in bits and fragments over the years, Dear Wifey ain’t always so nice in private.”

This is the secret of the Asian unicorn.

” . . . women tend to reserve their bad behavior for private moments – no witnesses, y’see, and women do care what other women think of them.”

And this is the secret of Silver Head game.

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@Anonymous Reader I’ve stated before I expect feminists to abandon Science, in time, because it contradicts their pretty stories so completely. Nah, they’ll just co-opt it like the CAGW crowd did. Science is corruptible. Also, as an FYI, I’ve been a fairly serious salsa dancer for 12+ years now. So I know exactly what you mean when it comes to backleading. Interestingly enough in the social dance scene, backleading girls get their reputation preceding them a lot and find themselves not dancing as much as other girls very quickly. What’s more the good female teachers often stress to the girls… Read more »

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kfg – Just thought of an interesting experiment, it may be related to whatever “Silver Head game” is. A man has a woman who wears one face in public, another in private? Let bits and pieces of her private nastiness leak out. Indirectly, of course. Mention it to some of the men married to her gal pals, for example. A few tiny doses. It’ll get back to her.

The effects should be interesting. This should only be tried when a man is fully operating with a ZFG frame, of course.

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@play don’t pay “At the moment, for me nihilism is where it’s at.” “Basically have decided that at this point women are just for entertainment purposes” “I feel like I have had my purpose in life taken away from me and all I can see for the future is a selfish life of hedonism” “Marriage is not an option” These statements sound like you’re heading in the right direction. It sounds depressing to some guys at first, but you’re better off enjoying your life and only using women for fun, rather than attempting to play by an old set of… Read more »

kfg
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Missed this:

“I’ve stated before I expect feminists to abandon Science, in time . . . ”

This is already one of the foundational tenets of post modern, cultural Marxist thought, hence a foundational tenet of Patriarchy Theory.

When science supports the narrative they will wield it as a weapon, but when it does not they will disqualify it. To them it’s just a rhetorical tool of the revolution, not something they believe in.

kfg
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” . . . whatever “Silver Head game” is . . . ”

A Silver Head (or Silverhead) is an alpha man with grey hair, analogous to the Silverback Gorilla. Silverhead Game is what keeps him rolling in 18 year olds.

“Let bits and pieces of her private nastiness leak out. Indirectly, of course.”

That is the meat of Women’s Circle game. Smile in your BFF’s face while at the same time poisoning her social well. This also how men are cut from access to women in the circle.

Interestingly, it is also how those with NPD operate.

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@kfg That’s actually what caused me to begin questioning some of my more extreme Left friends. “Wait, you folks are real quick to rake an idiotic ultra conservative Christian over the coals for ignoring science, but the moment the science doesn’t fit your narrative it’s invalid? Somethin don’t jive here…” People that tell me that they believe in science will start denying it the moment it doesn’t fit what they believe. It’s at least excusable to pull this move in religion; religious texts are often touted as being “open to interpretation”. The sciences on the other hand? Dude it’s true… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“It would be called “religion”.”

There is only one God, and his name is History.

Jeremy
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@Sun

That was 10 years ago. Now the people who speak as if they are “believers in the scientific method” literally come across as religious themselves. Gone is natural curiosity. Gone is inquisitiveness. Gone is humility in knowledge. What passes for doctrine for these people is what the typically government-funded, and often PC-sanitized-subject “scientists” say.

It’s getting to a point where I’d rather call myself an engineer in public, just so I’m not associating myself with a field that is ever-more a servant of political winds rather than its own master.

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy

Engineers always make good scientists strictly because their paycheck depends on shit that actually works as predicted.

benfromtexas
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@Jeremy

Good point. Science is just a political arm to control us now. If it goes along with the narrative being pushed, then good for our rulers. If not the change it, overlook it, or if you disagree then they destroy people in a modern day Inquisition.

Razorwire
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Dinner last weekend in my back yard. Myself and my date with dear friends (married for almost 20 years). They have a 4 y/o son* who was in bed already. As the conversation split and my (male) friend and I were on our own tangent, I could overhear bits of the conversation between the women. Many observations, consistent with what has been said above, but also interesting how the tone acquires both the status posturing and emotional competition between women while still adhering to the female superiority aspect of entrenched FI perspectives, i.e. men are pigs, men are just large… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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There are scientific subjects where actual progress is still being made, but most of them are where people just don’t understand the subject matter and can’t be arsed to.

Stingray
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Of course, there’s a way to induce dissonance among the tradcons: quote the Bible. Yes, that is one way. But women have an uncanny ability to rationalize even the most straightforward of text. Just look at, who is it, Sheila Gregoire or something like that, that Dalrock links to? “Only submit under your own conditions!!!” What works best on trad women is the AMOG. Even when this man seriously ticks her off, she is drawn to him. She will keep coming back for more. But when this man comes around, he is kicked out because he is too dangerous (like… Read more »

benfromtexas
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@Stingray

Who is Joseph of Jackson?

CaveClown
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” I used to find it harmless until I realized how damaging that can be if say, a boy’s mom, filters everything through that lens. Or a wife, who now sees her husband and 4 y/o as occupying the same space in which her need to mother and instruct operates from a moral and emotionally superior position” I remember as a kid that my mom used to play the Billy Dean country song, “Men’ll be boys” A LOT. “Only difference between the men and the boys, is the size of their feet and the price of their toys…” “…when it… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Stingray What works best on trad women is the AMOG. Even when this man seriously ticks her off, she is drawn to him. She will keep coming back for more. This can’t be overstated. As an atheist, the standard churchian beta is so easily AMOG’d it isn’t even funny. My religious views have built in indignation with “religious” women, so they seek out contact with me even if they’re married and I have no intention of getting involved with them. This happened repeatedly before TRP, and I couldn’t figure out why. It seemed like a sort of “bad boy” appeal… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong There are scientific subjects where actual progress is still being made, but most of them are where people just don’t understand the subject matter and can’t be arsed to. Yes. I was fortunate in college. I got associated with a physics professor who loved materials research. I’ve been to a few conferences. Where physics and chemistry meet is probably the most important area of human investigation at the moment. Though it receives absolutely no acclaim in the public eye, this field has been responsible for every single major human advance since the silicon diode. Our modern world would… Read more »

CaveClown
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“Of course, there’s a way to induce dissonance among the tradcons: quote the Bible.”

Riiiiight.

My favorite rationalization I have heard from the church chicks, wife included, is that it is their duty to support their husband. This includes times where he may not be “up to par” with his headship and so she has to “step in” and “help him” while he is unable to rightly captain the ship.

Athol Kay teaches that shit too.

Of course the interpretation of what is “up to par” is at her sole discretion.

Basically if she disagrees with him at all, he is not up to snuff.

Sun Wukong
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@CaveClown My favorite rationalization I have heard from the church chicks, wife included, is that it is their duty to support their husband. This is why religion is used as a piss poor crutch for weak men and has little success in actually curbing female behavior. A lot of tradcon men expect to just quote the Bible and the woman falls in line. It doesn’t work that way. Establish frame and be the Alpha, and she’ll fall in line whether you’re reading from a book or just spouting whatever shit comes in to your head. With or without the Bible,… Read more »

Stingray
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benfromtexas, He was a commenter at Dalrock’s a few years ago. My recollection of details tends to be abysmal, so hopefully Anonymous Reader will help me out if I get it wrong. The basics: he attended a church and began to make waves by talking to men about the actual truth of the Bible. Husband’s headship and wives to be submissive helpmeets. More than that he talked to the men about masculinity. Man’s masculinity, not the FI female taught masculinity that we are familiar with today. The church kicked him out. He found a new church and tried a new… Read more »

benfromtexas
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@Stingray

That sucks for that dude. Seriously.

Anonymous Reader
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Stingray Yes, that is one way. But women have an uncanny ability to rationalize even the most straightforward of text. Just look at, who is it, Sheila Gregoire or something like that, that Dalrock links to? “Only submit under your own conditions!!!” She’s one of the major offenders, her blog is To Love, Honor and Vacuum, tee hee hee spot the obviousness. What works best on trad women is the AMOG. Even when this man seriously ticks her off, she is drawn to him. True. Very true. In fact…. Sun Wukong This can’t be overstated. As an atheist, the standard… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Stingray – close enough on J of J. One of the deal killers for J of J was when he started teaching Game to church betas, who were all of a sudden very visible in a positive way to the young women of the church. The leadership really wanted to know what was going on, and I do recall that when J of J was called on the carpet by the church leadership a number of leader’s wives were essentially in on the deal. By teaching Game to beta men, who then became more Alpha to the daughters of the… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Stingray, Cave Clown, etc. all make valid points that it’s way too easy for people to re-re interpret Bible quotes or take them out of context to justify bad behavior by women & betaization of men. Cripes, there’s entire fora full of women rewriting the Bible to suit themselves. This is why I tell all moderates that only fundamentalists are following an actual religion. If exactly what’s in that book is what you’re supposed to follow, then the fundies are right and moderates are wrong. If the book is open to interpretation, then the fundie interpretation is just as valid… Read more »

CaveClown
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“One of the deal killers for J of J was when he started teaching Game to church betas, who were all of a sudden very visible in a positive way to the young women of the church. ” The last time I was separated from the wife, I started going to church. I almost doubled my (admittedly low) N count. Beta men would actually introduce me to their wives. The “new guy at church” game… Evil, but it works. Her, “I heard you are really helping the guys in the men’s group. I have some ideas about the next meeting,… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“I suppose a really heavy duty AMOG preacher could turn a church in a different direction . . .”

Anonymous Reader
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In fact, thinking about it, maybe what J of J demonstrated was a reaction by the wimmenz of the church that could be called Hypergamy by proxy. Rollo probably has already written on it, and I’m too lazy…er…busy right now to search.

Blaximus
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Wow. Thread taking an interesting turn. Real quick, my .12 cents ( adjusted for inflation and all..) I will always, always be amazed at how a lot of men are so subservient to various organizations or social constructs. For the record, I am a believer. I am spiritual as part of who I am. never, ever considered converting anyone, and in my personal life my preferences ( usually ) remain private. Believing doesn’t make me more of anything compared to the general population. It’s a personal thing. The whole ” husbands holding purses while wifey bounces off in the direction… Read more »

insanitybytes22
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“Insanity, speaking as the only male authority you acknowledge…”

I don’t acknowledge your authority Tomassi, I’m terribly sorry. I do my best to be polite to you because this is your blog, your books, your ideas. I can respect that.

The Ronin
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Where men find themselves now is in a position where they cannot be a Red Pill parent without facing push back from all angles, their wife, school, friends and ultimately the courts. With about half the boys now growing up in homes with no fathers there are no male role models to follow which completes the cycle… That said, it appears the pendulum has swung about as far as it can go, the whole transgender Bruce/Caitlyn thing has pushed even many liberal minded people to the edge and over. With Feminist demands now so far fetched the satirical articles on… Read more »

Dragonfly
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Anonymous Reader “I do recall that when J of J was called on the carpet by the church leadership a number of leader’s wives were essentially in on the deal.” If you mind… what do you mean by that? About the wives being against him (or were they really against the young women being turned on by the more masculine men)? Glen – your thing did make me reconsider the importance of modesty… but I think, in your anger back then, you totally misunderstood what I said. I don’t go out in clothes that my husband doesn’t first approve of.… Read more »

CaveClown
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“Unless they’ve tied you to a chair in a basement, you free to walk away and ignore.”

or attic

benfromtexas
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@dragonfly I don’t know this story. I just found out about it, but I could probably answer you. The “threat” to the leadership wives was that by teaching the boys it undermined their authority of having power. J of J was shifting power to the boys and the mother hens would then lose power of influence. The boys are to be Betas in their female frame. If the boys got more Alpha, then what if that caught on? What if the men started doing that as well? J of J was a threat to them & they are to control… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@CaveClown

They don’t tie you to a chair in the attic. They kill you to it.

wacokid
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Wtf? I have been married almost 30 years the last thing I want to read is a string of arguements with women and women bitching about cleaning houses….get back to some depressing divorce shit…..and successful banging….

insanitybytes22
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“They don’t tie you to a chair in the attic. They kill you to it.”

Surely you people have seen the movie Gaslight? 1944, Ingrid Bergman? So many of your red pill tropes have to do with gas lighting not only women, but your very own selves.

“Bad smells in the attic” and “fertilizing the rose bushes,” are phrases from Gaslight and Arsenic and Old Lace.

trackback

[…] Play Don’t Pay had an observation from the last post: […]

Stingray
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If you mind… what do you mean by that? About the wives being against him I had forgotten that bit about the wives. Imagine if you will, Dragonfly, a church being led by the neck by the leaders wives. Most likely middle age women, post wall. They have much influence in the church through their husbands and in walks this man who leads the young man down a decidedly masculine path. A masculine path not defined by them. The anger is two fold. It is a usurpation of their power. Young men who define masculinity on their own do not… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Dat bitch don’t even recognize her own shit when we’ve been using it for like… two or three fucking weeks now.

IB, I’ve changed my mind about you. You’re not a troll. You’re not mentally ill. You’re just a fucking idiot.

Dragonfly
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@Anonymous Reader, it’s curious you keep mentioning Elspeth… I was looking for her blog the other day, and found that she has also deleted her blog, . I don’t know exactly why, and I do know she is still around – she likes things and comments, I’ve seen that she reads and comments at Insanity’s blog and appears to agree with her (?). I do know that the same group of women who claim they started the manosphere (lol), the ones who hated Sunshine Mary and were constantly criticizing her blog and content, have also in the past, given Elspeth… Read more »

Blaximus
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@ The Ronin “Where men find themselves now is in a position where they cannot be a Red Pill parent without facing push back from all angles, their wife, school, friends and ultimately the courts. With about half the boys now growing up in homes with no fathers there are no male role models to follow which completes the cycle…” All true, but Red Pill should make you impervious to the pushback. It is to be expected. I get zero pushback at home and I couldn’t care less what others think or say. The courts…now that’s a problem. This is… Read more »

Dragonfly
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@Stingray “Young men who define masculinity on their own do not care what these old women have to say. It is a severe loss of power. It is also a harsh reminder of their post wall situation. They would not only lose their influence over the young women to these men (not to mention other young men), it is a very harsh reminder of the loss of their youth and the truth of their own marriages.” So it was jealousy of the power these young men had in church, among other things… that does make sense, and I’ve seen that… Read more »

Dragonfly
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@benfromtexas – that makes sense also… the fear of them being a threat. Fear of loss of power, and jealousy of them gaining the power that they once had. Those two things right there, drive some of the most disgusting behavior.

benfromtexas
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@dragonfly

Yep. Women with power instinctively protect it for survival reasons. Even if it destroys the men in their lives. They could care less.

Badpainter
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Drafonfly – “So it was jealousy of the power these young men had in church, among other things…”

Envious of the increased power of the younger men vs. women generally. Jealously defending their own power, fearing that the older men (their husbands) will stop following their lead. Finally fearing the loss of influence they have on younger women who represent their social legacy.

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader “I do recall that when J of J was called on the carpet by the church leadership a number of leader’s wives were essentially in on the deal.” Dragonfly If you mind… what do you mean by that? About the wives being against him (or were they really against the young women being turned on by the more masculine men)? IMO, based on my recollection, the wives of the leadership of the church were up in arms over J of J training Beta men in Game, because some of their daughters were now being attracted to those men.… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Rollo Tommasi “Nature experiments more freely with males than females. Thus we are the disposable sex and women the protected one.” https://m.soundcloud.com/hughlaurieblues/st-james-infirmary @kfg “But his wrong belief is largely extinct proof, because no matter how many times women demonstrate to him that he is wrong he defends his position by projecting the error onto the women.” My sister had my nephew by doing exactly this. Women never want full discloser and they never want to be reminded if hypergamy. They just want us to “get it” I used to defend my position by projecting onto women all the time. I… Read more »

insanitybytes22
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“It amazed me that someone that wonderful could receive so much harsh, unnecessary criticism of her blog and her happiness in her marriage. And it wasn’t just criticism… this was mocking and bashing kind of criticism…” Wowser, you’re quite the piece of work, Dragonfly. As if you don’t know why??? How many women have you yourself attacked, betrayed, stabbed in the back, threatened to call the cops on? How many women have you gone around bad mouthing, posting things about them on other blogs, warning people about “what she’s really like,” just like you did to me? Some of these… Read more »

Scribblerg
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@dragonfly – Lol. My anger didn’t cloud my reasoning or understanding of what you said back then. Interesting that you took it to heart, as I figured you might have as I know you are serious about your faith and the red pill. It is interesting though that you couched your response I terms of your husbands approval. I mean, you can figure this out for yourself, right? You should know the difference between looking nice and dressing in a way attracts sexual attention without having to ask anyone. I am less angry for sure though. Being a selfish prick… Read more »

Dragonfly
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“warning people about “what she’s really like,” just like you did to me?” You are a fraud, IB, better get used to people pointing it out now and forever. Slandering me around the internet DID call for me to have to contact people I write for, that thought you were an authentic Christian, and didn’t understand the context and had no clue what you were doing or saying here. You tried to ruin my reputation. You need to apologize to your followers for misleading them, lying about other people accusing them of things they’ve never done, being a fake, and… Read more »

Dragonfly
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And IB, maybe if you had actually done the RIGHT thing, and given people the context of my quote when they asked for it, the link to my comment, I would not have had to defend myself against your slander to people we mutually know.

You REFUSED to give the context or even a link, because you KNEW it would out you and that what you were doing first to me was wrong.

kfg
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kfg
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“You tried to ruin my reputation.”

Q.E.D.

Dragonfly
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If you were a woman of integrity, you would give people the context they’re asking for, especially when they ask for a link. You knew who I wrote for, and that they would see your post, you knew exactly what you were doing. They asked for the context. They asked for a link. You told them you didn’t wan to give it and feigned being the victim. And then you get mad when I give them the links. And then deleting or spamming Rollo’s comments that revealed you weren’t what you said you were… how can you justify all this… Read more »

insanitybytes22
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“Slandering me around the internet DID call for me to have to contact people I write for, that thought you were an authentic Christian, and didn’t understand the context and had no clue what you were doing or saying here.” I never said a word to you until the third time you attacked me, Dragonfly, You operate from a scarcity mentality, constantly trying to compete with other women for what you perceive to be limited male approval. I call it the pretty princess syndrome and there can only be one. I’ve never given a crap for such little girls games,… Read more »

kobayashii1681
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“I don’t acknowledge your authority Tomassi, I’m terribly sorry. I do my best to be polite to you because this is your blog, your books, your ideas. I can respect that.”

Authority acknowledged!

Dragonfly
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Links IB… there is no one I’ve caused to stop blogging. You are again, lying more about me.

It’s ironic how you tried to ruin my reputation, and ended up ruining yours in the eyes of people who actually wanted to search out the truth. The people I write for immediately could see what had went down and warned me to temper my responses with grace (and duly noted… otherwise it will be used against me by frauds like you).

Keep going… you are the one acting like a 13 year old playing games

katmandutu
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Methinks the Dragonfly doth protest too much! grin

Great entertainment here.

IB has you all in thrall.

Even Rollo is compelled to respond.

wacokid
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All Frame has been lost…You will never get satisfaction or the response you want to achieve once a live or internet argument starts with a women. I have finally learned that, took 25 years or so and was reinforced with RM. It goes to show that Frame can be lost by anyone.

insanitybytes22
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“It’s ironic how you tried to ruin my reputation, and ended up ruining yours in the eyes of people who actually wanted to search out the truth…” I did no such thing. If your so called reputation has been harmed, it is entirely your own doing. As to links, those would be what several people have sent to me, your very own words saying ugly things about me to others, while pretending to my face that you were being kind to me. You actually posted to Biblical that you believed some people should secretly call the cops and report me.… Read more »

Elspeth
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As much as I appreciate the kind words (and I sincerely do), I’m not particularly comfortable with being spoken for by unauthorized representatives. Yes, I deleted LITR. Not because I was run off, but because the blog was crap. The writing was terrible and there was too much pandering to a particular narrative. I’m not sure who these unnamed women are who supposedly ran me off. If I had to hazard a guess, it was one of those self same women who bothered to alert me that I was a topic of conversation here because I very rarely visit this… Read more »

benfromtexas
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@Elspeth

Titus 2?
Is that where it says women shouldn’t be winos & gossip so they are role models for future women?

Elspeth
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@benfromtexas:

That they may teach the younger women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Read entire chapter here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+2&version=KJV

I hadn’t intended to comment further but I thought your question important enough to answer.

Anonymous Reader
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There you go, Anonymous Reader. Elspeth has spoken. Good enough. Thanks for clearing all that up, Elspeth. I fully understand that what you were doing and likely are doing now is best done face to face, or mouth to ear, not in text on the web where anyone and everyone can see someone else’s mess. And it’s got to be easier on you to deal with, because if someone just wants to complain and never do better, you don’ t have to put up with it face to face. Not that I’m naming any names from that old blog, mind… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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I see that I dramatically failed to close an italic. Oh, well. Fixable if Rollo wishes.

benfromtexas
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@Guy

Agreed. It IS child abuse. Some people just shouldn’t breed.

Dragonfly
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“That did not happen. Sometimes it really is just time to move on.”

I’m glad Elspeth. Thank you for clearing the air. I miss your blog.

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