The Red Pill Parent

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This week I’ll be exploring a new angle in the Red Pill: how parenting and family relations influence and direct the Blue Pill conditioning of a generation, and what Red Pill aware men can do to redirect this. It was encouraging to see fathers and sons together at the Man In Demand conference. I honestly wasn’t expecting this, but it was a humbling experience to see fathers and sons coming to a Red Pill awareness together. I also met with a few men who told me their sons had either turned them on to my books or that they would be required reading for their sons before they got out of their teens.

One of the greatest benefits of the conference was the inspiration and material I got from the men attending. A particular aspect of this was addressing how men might educate and help others to unplug and in that lay a wealth of observations about how these men’s upbringings had brought them to both their Blue Pill idealisms and ultimately their Red Pill awareness.

I’m beginning this series with some of these observations, but I plan to break protocol and be a bit more proscriptive in the last essay with regard to what I think may be beneficial ways to be a Red Pill parent. In The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine I included a chapter which outlined how men are primarily conditioned for lives and ego-investments in a Blue Pill idealism that ultimately prepares them for better serving the Feminine Imperative when their usefulness is necessary to fulfill women’s sexual (and really lifetime) strategies.

That chapter is only available in the book, but if you have it, it might be helpful to review it after you read this.

Reader (and MiD conference attendee) Jeremy had an excellent observation from Solipsism II:

@Capper

The only thing I take issue with is the advice, from the book that his wife read, which told her to place her husband above her children. Children come first for a mother, and they should for the father too. I’m not advocating to neglect her husband, but he needs to accept some biological facts and not be hurt because of it

What you’re repeating there is actually the first steps of a hostage crisis. That is first-wave-feminism boilerplate response. It is the first redirection in a misdirection perpetuated by women in order to sink any notion that men should have some authority on matters. Think of the children. It’s been repeated for so long, it’s a cliche…

It’s typical crab-basket behavior. Women seek power over their lives and somehow instinctively believe that the only way to achieve power is to take someone else’s power away. So they attack male authority by placing children above the man. This then becomes a stick with which to beat male authority into submission, as the woman is allowed to speak for the needs of the children. This is literally textbook subversion, and plays out on so many levels of human culture it tends to make one consider how boring humanity must look to any alien life that happens to stumble across our unremarkable corner of the universe.

When the children’s needs become the “throne” of the household, and the wife is allowed to speak for the children’s needs, then the authority of the household becomes a rather grotesque combination of immediate child needs and female manipulation. Worse still, the children are now effectively captives of the wife, because at any time she can accuse the husband of anything the law is forced to throw him in handcuffs for, and take away the kids.

What you’re repeating is the first steps in that hostage situation. Equalists will try to convince you of the logic that children come first, that children are the future, that all of that which makes them better is more important than anything else. This is bullshit.

Do you think cavemen sat around in caves all day playing and socially interacting with their babies? Do you think they had some kind of fresh-gazelle-delivery service that allowed him to interact with the children directly? Do you think the mothers were not under exactly the same survival condition, needing to forage for carrots, potatoes, berries, etc, while the men hunted and built structures? Do you think the “children” came first in any other era of humanity? If so, you are very sadly mistaken.

Children are more than capable of getting everything they need to know about how to live simply by watching their parents live a happy life together. This is how humans did things for eons, changing that order and putting the “children first” is frankly perverse and the beginning of the destruction of the family. Children are more than information sponges, they are blank minds that want desperately to be adult. Children want to understand everything that everyone around them understands, which is why a parent telling a child that you’re “disappointed” in them is more effective than a paddling. If you focus on children, you are frankly just spoiling them with attention that they will never receive in the real world. If instead you focus on yourself and your spouse, you will raise children that see you putting yourself as the MPO (as Rollo calls it), and your marriage/partnership as an important part of what you do each day.

Don’t put the children first. That’s essentially like negotiating with a terrorist, they’ll only make more demands on you until the cops storm the plane and lots of people get shot.

Your Mental Point of Origin should never waver from yourself.

American Parenting is Killing American Marriage

Of course, Ayelet Waldman’s blasphemy was not admitting that her kids were less than completely wonderful, only that she loved her husband more than them. This falls into the category of thou-shalt-have-no-other-gods-before-me. As with many religious crimes, judgment is not applied evenly across the sexes. Mothers must devote themselves to their children above anyone or anything else, but many wives would be offended if their husbands said, “You’re pretty great, but my love for you will never hold a candle to the love I have for John Junior.”

Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex. A father could admit to desiring his wife without seeming like a distracted parent, but society is not as willing to cut Ms. Waldman that same slack. It is unseemly for a mother to enjoy pleasures that don’t involve her children.
There are doubtless benefits that come from elevating parenthood to the status of a religion, but there are obvious pitfalls as well. Parents who do not feel free to express their feelings honestly are less likely to resolve problems at home. Children who are raised to believe that they are the center of the universe have a tough time when their special status erodes as they approach adulthood. Most troubling of all, couples who live entirely child-centric lives can lose touch with one another to the point where they have nothing left to say to one another when the kids leave home.
In the 21st century, most Americans marry for love. We choose partners who we hope will be our soulmates for life. When children come along, we believe that we can press pause on the soulmate narrative, because parenthood has become our new priority and religion. We raise our children as best we can, and we know that we have succeeded if they leave us, going out into the world to find partners and have children of their own. Once our gods have left us, we try to pick up the pieces of our long neglected marriages and find new purpose. Is it surprising that divorce rates are rising fastest for new empty nesters? Perhaps it is time that we gave the parenthood religion a second thought.

I think these quotes outline the dynamic rather well; a method of control women can use to distract and defer away from Beta husbands is a simple appeal to their children’s interests as being the tantamount to their own or their husbands. If the child sits at the top of that love hierarchy and that child’s wellbeing and best interests can be defined by the mother, the father/husband is relegated to subservience to both the child and the mother.

This gets back to the preternatural Empathy myth that women, by virtue of just being a woman, has some instinctual, empathetic insight about placing that child above all else. That child becomes a failsafe and a buffer against having to entertain a real relationship with the father/husband and really consider his position in her Hypergamous estimate of him.

If that man isn’t what her Hypergamous instinct estimates him being as optimal (he’s the unfortunate Beta), then “she’s tolerating his presence for the kids’ sake.” Jeremy was responding to a comment made by Capper about an incident where a woman was being encouraged to put her husband before her kids in that love hierarchy priority. The fact that this is so unnatural for a woman that it would need to be something necessary to train a woman to speaks volumes about the facility with which women presume that their default priority ought to be for her kids.

Most men buy into this prioritization as well. It seems deductively logical that a woman would necessarily need to put her child’s attention priorities well above her husband’s. What’s counterintuitive to both parents is that it’s the health of their relationship (or lack) that defines and exemplifies the complementary gender understanding of the child. Women default to using their children as cats paws to assume primary authority of the family, and men are already preconditioned to accept this as the normative frame for the family.

As with all your relations with women, establishing a strong Frame is essential. The problem for men with even the strongest initial Frame with their wives is that they cede that Frame to their kids. Most men want the very best for their children; or there may be a Promise Keepers dynamic that guy is dealing with an makes every effort to outdo, and make up for, the sins of his father by sacrificing everything, but in so doing he loses sight of creating and maintaining a dominant Frame for not just his wife, but the state of his family.

It’s important to bear in mind that when you set the Frame of your relationship, whether it’s a first night lay or a marriage prospect, women enter your reality and your frame – the same needs to apply to any children within that relationship. Far too many fathers are afraid to embody that strong authority and expect their wives (and children) to recognize what should be his primary place in the family.

The fear is that by assuming this position they become the typical asshole father they hoped to avoid for most of their formative years. Even for men with strong masculine role models in their lives, the hesitation comes from a culture that ridicules fathers, or presumes they are potentially violent towards children. Thus the abdication of fatherly authority, in as positive a tense as possible, is abdicated before that child is even born.

Ectogenesis

At the Man in Demand conference last weekend I had a young guy ask me what my thoughts were about a man’s being interested in becoming a single parent of his own accord. I had this same question posed to me during my second interview with Christian McQueen and essentially it breaks down to a man supplying his own sperm, buying a suitable woman’s viable ovum to fertilize himself, and, I presume, hire a surrogate mother to carry that child to term. Thereupon he takes custody of that child and raises it himself as a single father.

In theory this arrangement should work out to something similar to a woman heading off the the sperm bank to (once again Hypergamously) select a suitable sperm donor and become a single parent of her own accord. It’s interesting that we have institutions and facilities like sperm banks to ensure women’s Hypergamy, but men, much less heterosexual men, must have exceptional strength of purpose and determination to do so.

Despite dealing with the very likely inability of the surrogate mother to disentangle her emotional investment in giving birth to a child she will never raise (hormones predispose women to this) a man must be very determined financially and legally to become a single father by choice. In principle I understand the sentiment of Red Pill men wanting to raise a child on their own. The idea is to do so free from the (at least direct) influence of the Feminine Imperative. However, I think this is in error.

My feelings on this are two part. First, being a complementarian, it is my belief that a child requires two healthy adult parents, male and female, with a firm, mature grasp of the importance, strengths and weaknesses of their respective gender roles (based on biological and evolutionary standards). Ideally they should exemplify and demonstrate those roles in a healthy fashion so as a boy or a girl can learn about masculinity and femininity from their respective parents’ examples.

Several generations after the sexual revolution, and after several generations of venerating feminine social primacy, we’ve arrived at a default collective belief that single mothers can perform the function of modeling and shaping masculinity in boys as well as femininity in girls equally well. The underlying social message in that is that women/mothers can be a one woman show with regard to parenting and thus men, fathers or the buffoons mainstream culture portrays them as, are superfluous to parenting – nice to have around, but not vital. This belief also finds fertile ground in the notion that men are obsolete.

Secondly, for all the equalist emphasis of Jungian gender theories about anima/animus and balancing feminine and masculine personality interests, it is evidence of an agenda to suggest that a woman is equally efficient in teaching and modeling masculine aspects to children as well as any positively masculine man. With that in mind, I think the reverse would be true for a deliberately single father – even with the best of initial intents.

Thus, I think a father might serve as a poor substitute for a woman when it comes to exemplifying a feminine ideal. The argument then of course is that, courtesy of a feminine-centric social order, women have so divorced themselves of conventional femininity that perhaps a father might teach a daughter (if not demonstrate for her) a better feminine ideal than a woman. Conventional, complementary femininity is so lost on a majority of women it certainly seems like logic for a man to teach his daughter how to recapture it.

Raising Betas

This was the trap that 3rd wave feminism fell into; the belief that they knew how best to raise a boy into their disempowered and emasculated ideal of their redefined masculinity. Teach that boy a default deference and sublimation to feminine authority, redefine it as respect, teach him to pee sitting down and share in his part of the choreplay, and well, the world is bound to be a better more cooperative place right?

So it is for these reason I think that the evolved, conventional, two-parent heterosexual model serves best for raising a child. I cannot endorse single parenthood for either sex. Parenting should be as collaborative and as complementary a partnership as is reflected in the complementary relationship between a mother and father.

It’s the height of gender-supremacism to be so arrogantly self-convinced as to deliberately choose to birth a child and attempt to raise it into the contrived ideal of what that “parent” believes the other gender’s role ought to be.

This should put the institutionalized social engineering agenda of the Feminine Imperative into stark contrast for anyone considering intentional single parenthood. Now consider that sperm banks and feminine-specific fertility institutions have been part of normalized society for over 60 years and you can see that Hypergamy has dictated the course of parenting for some time now. This is the definition of social engineering.

I’ll admit that when I got the question of single fatherhood I was a bit incredulous of the mechanics of it. Naturally it would be an expense most men couldn’t entertain. However, as promised, I did my homework on it, and found out that ectogenesis was yet another science-fiction-come-reality that feminists have already considered and have planned for:

Prominent feminists and activists, including Andrea Dworkin and Janice Raymond, have concluded that not only will women be further marginalized and oppressed by this eventuality, but they will become obsolete.

Fertility, and the ability to be the species’ reproductive engine, are virtually the only resources that women collectively control, they argue. And, although women do have other “value” in a patriarchal society–child rearing, for example–gestation remains, worldwide, the most important.  Even in the most female-denigrating cultures women are prized, if only, for their childbearing. If you take that away, then what? This technology becomes another form of violence.

Women already have the power to eliminate men and in their collective wisdom have decided to keep them. The real question now is, will men, once the artificial womb is perfected, want to keep women around?

[…]“We may find ourselves without a product of any kind with which to bargain,” she writes. “We have to ask, if that last power is taken and controlled by men, what role is envisaged for women in the new world? Will women become obsolete?”

This was a great article and it came at an auspicious time – the time we find women sweating about having their sexual market leverage with men potentially being undercut by sex-bots and/or immersive virtual sex substitutes.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kobayashii1681
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@IsThisThingOn – On this: http://www.vice.com/read/youre-single-because-there-arent-enough-men-253?utm_source=vicefbus “How could a man of that age be so cavalier about casting aside such an amazing woman?….Why are there so many “great” single women? Where are all the great single men?” Cavalier??? HA! Of course, in todays media, women are infallible and angelic…so men should be so lucky? http://www.ratemycollegehousing.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/chiefkeefnah.jpg We are not some safety net for women who decided to go through their phases and follow the rest of the herd through their phases. You are not entitled to our time, sperm, resources or attention. First of all you must EARN IT, secondly, there are,… Read more »

The Smell In The Attic
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My condolences to Not Born this Morning and my empathy for your unfortunate situation were both sincere.

Hey! How about me? Didn’t you say you were sincere to me, too?

insanitybytes22
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“IB exhibits every indication that she suffers from a bipolar disorder….”

I do not.

However Tomassi, if you could set aside your assholery for a moment and stop your relentless attacks and insults, you might come to discover that I am an actual human being worthy of a smidgion of basic courtesy. Or it is possible that the ego investment you have in endlessly hating on women, carries a payoff too great for your psyche to let go of. If so, I am so sorry.

The Bad Smell In The Attic
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Well, what about me? You were all lovey dovey and sincere to me, too!

The Really Bad Smell In The Attic
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you might come to discover that I am an actual human being worthy of a smidgion of basic courtesy.

Hey! What about me, wasn’t I an actual human being worthy of a smidgion of basic courtesy, too?

But smell me now!

CaveClown
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“As I’ve said before, IB exhibits every indication that she suffers from a bipolar disorder. Add to this the symptoms common to women during menopause and you can understand her multiple personalities better.” Bipolar or borderline? Borderline usually is brought out by interpersonal relationships, life challenges, and insecurities being brought to light (if only in their mind) The manic to depressive swings can change very rapidly. Not uncommon for a BPD to change moods several times an hour at their worst. When the “triggers” are absent, a BPD typically reverts back to a “flat affect” type of emotional base. It’s… Read more »

The Smell In The Attic Is Super BAD!
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All I wanna know about Insanity Bitch:

Jeremy
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@Blaximus After childbirth I am prone to give a woman a pass. They have a volatile hormonal cocktail inside of them and it takes many of them months to get fully back to being themselves. Why? Why assume that the presence of your sexuality in her life is bad for her during a hormonal mix? I was reading a while back that sex during menstruation, when done correctly, actually alleviates many of the symptoms of some women. I would argue that human life evolved to accommodate persistent male sexual needs in most aspects of a woman’s life, whether she wants… Read more »

Badpainter
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“…I am an actual human being…”

Prove it.

“…worthy of a smidgion of basic courtesy.”

You first.

CaveClown
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BPD’s tend to focus on one emotion as well. So their anger can go way up or way down, or their happiness can go way up or way down, or disgust or love or lust or whatever. It is very specific. I LOVE YOU!!! (20 mins later) I HATE YOU!!! (20 minutes later) I WANNA FUCK YOU!!! (20 minutes later) SEX IS DISGUSTING!!! And they can be separate. High on lust and high on anger are something I see a lot. So is high on love but high on disgust. High on love and low on self worth is common… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Transgender in kids… I can’t in any world justify that one. I don’t doubt that there’s a real situation where the brain’s chemistry is the wrong sex for a particular body. But the current “solution” is no solution at all. One of my favorite PC games when I was younger was designed by a very funny, very smart designer named Dan Bunten. He was a transexual that decided to undergo the surgery to become a she later in life. When interviewed about it, he had this to say: “Being my ‘real self’ could have included having a penis and including… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun When interviewed about it, he had this to say: “Being my ‘real self’ could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn’t know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I’ve stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice.” I felt incredibly sad when I read a statement like that from a person whose work I greatly admired. This is a large part of what makes me think that most sexuality is created in… Read more »

insanitybytes22
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Tomassi, that doesn’t make me bi polar, that makes me authentically angry with you. And for good reason, you were a jerk.

Bipolar and borderline are the two most misdiagnosed and misunderstood accusations in the manosphere. It is every man’s
“get out of jail free card,” I don’t understand women so obviously I must have encountered a defective unit. Some of you engage in some abusive and appalling behavior and then act totally surprised when women don’t like it. Than you try labeling her crazy, when in fact, you were the one who made her act that way.

Jeremy
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Indeed, IB, everyone must be against you. It couldn’t possibly be that you don’t understand what you think you understand. It couldn’t possibly be that you deliberately post crap that you know is crap to self-generate indignation. It couldn’t possibly be that your understanding of men is flawed and requires more learning….

No, no, everyone else is retarded, you’re correct, and we’re all just assholes. Now, lets close the lid on this and let the praise of your superior understanding of the world echo for you. Sound nice?

/It shouldn’t.

rugby11ljh
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@Anonymous Reader “IMO women have a natural tendency to “marry” their children. Used to be sisters, mothers, aunts, etc. would rein that in. Now, not so much. It’s up to the man, as usual, to set the tone. I repeat: unbreakable frame.” Thank you had a lot of dysfunctions and troubles someone today told something kinda cool “if your wrong admit it if your right say nothing,” Frame the man had was unbreakable @Sun Wukong “Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.” http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQOggs0CQ4 The red pill “Politics is the art of controlling your environment.”… Read more »

Striver
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All, Thanks for the feedback. I don’t think I would try to escalate with hiking bitch. Frankly I was turned off when she did that. I’m not going to escalate when I’m turned off. It’s really too direct to be a shit test. As far as walking out, it’s not a move I had in my arsenal. Emotionally I’m sure I wanted to do it, I was just frozen emotionally in the moment. Felt the emotions, but didn’t know how to react. I do think it’s a good example of the need to have responses planned, even scripted until you… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo

I have plenty of comments to choose from.

Ain’t that the unfortunate fucking truth.

lh
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“I was reading a while back that sex during menstruation, when done correctly, actually alleviates many of the symptoms of some women.” Sex & Menstruation: I had several LTR’s and never ever did any women not like or want sex during menstruation. Some even liked it especially and I also enoy how that wet hole feels then. There may be blood somewhere, but who cares? I’ve to say though I also never eperienced her “denying” me sex in a LTR (same in fuckbuddy arrangement obviously) when I initiated. So if you ask me if a women doesn’t want sex because… Read more »

lh
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“Thanks for the feedback. I don’t think I would try to escalate with hiking bitch. Frankly I was turned off when she did that. I’m not going to escalate when I’m turned off. It’s really too direct to be a shit test.” While letting your dick decide is surely right, why did you look at her “like that” in the first place? I’m unfamiliar with american “highschool- game” everyone here seems to know, so maybe I’m not getting something here? But if you were horny for her before, I’d also say you shouldn’t let her get you turned off so… Read more »

play don't pay
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@ Rollo I think this “putting the kids first” phenomenon is very simple to explain. She DOESN’T WANT TO FUCK YOU! She is using the kids as a shield, a barrier to deflect your UNWANTED BETA SEXUAL ADVANCES. It is generally accepted that women are only interested in the top 20% of men, and if you are talking about as marriage partners I would agree with this. However if you are talking about as SEX partners that they are genuinely hot for I would estimate this percentage to be north of 5% add in the frame required to maintain her… Read more »

benfromtexas
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It’s interesting how women adapt to mate options. I have a female friend, who was hot as Hell when we were younger. She went to Hollywood, & screwed a lot of celebs(top tier) for women. She now can’t find the “right” man, because she can’t get a top tier man she can brag about now. I’ve watched her turn down solid Alphas who had good jobs because they weren’t good enough. It’s weird that since she has been a major Hollywood groupie, that now she can’t pair bond with “normal” men. This might explain why so many celebrity women are… Read more »

IAS
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Benfromtexas: what you describe seems to be a particularly bad case of Alpha widow. http://therationalmale.com/tag/alpha-widow/ The apparently atypical difference is that your female friend simply turns the men down, instead of getting into a relationship with someone and then making him miserable for not being as alpha as the celebs she used to screw. I’m guessing that your female friend is financially well-off herself to not feel as much need for a “Beta Bucks”. Celebrity women are usually rich, which I guess explains why they remain single instead of marrying a “Beta Bucks” themselves – if anything they may even… Read more »

benfromtexas
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Oh yeah, she’s an Alpha Widow with money. I grew up with her & she would tell the Hollywood tales all the time. Rollo is right about how the biological clock is a myth too. She talks about wanting to get married and have kids, but she has yet to bother settling down. The men she meets doesn’t meet her “bragging rights” celebrity standards she was used to, so she just works & goes home. It’s crazy to observe knowing what I know. Women psychologically do pay a price hopping from cock to cock. The number of alphas or at… Read more »

play don't pay
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@ bft
I think you’re right about “bragging rights”. It’s just like Rollo says, she doesn’t care about who you are as a person, she only cares about What you are and how you make her feel.
You are just an accessory to show off to her friends and any children you have are an extension of this dynamic.
It’s pretty fucked up when you think about it.
And they accuse us of being shallow!

Andy
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Listen however, pregnancy hormones generally increase desire, as does childbirth and nursing.

It doesn’t always produce this kind of scenario. I’m not sure what’s going on with your wife… but this is the exact opposite of what we experience.

@Dragonfly, IB

Do you have any sources for these assertions? I don’t doubt that there’s different reactions, but I have a feeling that my wife’s scenario is far more common. Just google “Breastfeeding and Sex” It’s almost 100% what I described.

benfromtexas
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@pdp

Agreed. It’s funny how women use projection to say men do what women actually do all the time.

Dragonfly
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@Andy… you should ask Stingray or Liz (very reliable, longtime female readers here – and they’ve had more kids than I have). All I have is my own experience & a few friends’s admissions… but yes, my experience is the exact opposite, both during pregnancy and when nursing (been full-time nursing for 9 months now… and we have sex all the time – he can make me crave him by just being around me & bantering back and forth with me even at the end of the day, when I was about to fall asleep, and I’d worked out for… Read more »

Andy
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He thought that wives who do that are using it as an excuse to mask their lack of real, raw, passionate desire for their husbands. haha, sounds like he’s a lucky guy. How many wives does he have? Personally my wife didn’t deny me anything while nursing. She never does. But at this point in my life if she isn’t into it, it doesn’t do much for me. Look, if it wasn’t a hormonal problem then why would she go back to normal after weaning? My point is this: I’m going to say a vast majority of women lose their… Read more »

CaveClown
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Whether a gal loses her sex drive hormonally or not during pregnancy and nursing isn’t really the issue though, is it?

If she feared his leaving, if she truly recognized him as a high value man that wouldn’t tolerate lack of sex, she would put out anyway. At the very least she would attempt to please.

Short of the actual physical inability to fuck (bed rest and such) it seems like a test or a lack of attraction.

CaveClown
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Hell now that I think about it, years ago my sister had a major medical problem where she was bed ridden for months.

She didn’t want her husband to go without so she had him masturbate onto her tits while she talked dirty or just made eye contact. (Yes, sister and I are close enough she tells me this shit)

Said she didn’t want him to fuck the chick at Starbucks that likes him so much.

Sister has mad attraction for this guy.

Andy
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@Cave

Yeah maybe. My theory is that their focus would be on provisioning. Plus it would make sense in an evolutionary sense that the woman would want the next kid to be from a different man anyway to diversify DNA.

benfromtexas
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@andy I don’t think fatherhood was by committee. Most men would be hunting, farming, or fighting in wars. The solution to what you’re describing is a harem. That’s why men had them, and the conquered tribes were castrated and turned into eunuchs to protect the harems. The one man one woman concept was for betas, heiring property, or arranged marriages for breeding Alphas(a general would want his daughter married to another general) think along the lines of breeding dogs. Kings were usually warriors and they would want their sons to be guaranteed good breeding stock and they would want “daddy’s… Read more »

Andy
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“Sister has mad attraction for this guy.”

So say she still has attraction, but can’t perform. Do you think the Alpha is going to wait around when there’s fully functioning hotties walking around the cave?

Jeremy
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@Andy My point is this: I’m going to say a vast majority of women lose their sex drive while nursing. Increased prolactin, decreased estrogen, decreased testosterone, no ovulation… No cave man Alpha is going to put up with that shit when the next girl is ready to go. Personally my view is that fatherhood was probably by committee in our past. What should make you question your conclusion there is that newer research is finding that greater percentage than that of marriages are considered “Sexless” to begin with. So exactly how much of these investigations into arousal blockers is real,… Read more »

CaveClown
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Which is why my sis attempted to keep him happy.

She knew he would probably fuck someone else if she didn’t.

He’s gone full beta since then, and she has since gotten fat and sloppy because of it.

I see the point about post partum chicks being about provisioning, but I also wonder if it’s a rationalization on the man’s part.

Andy
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Andy
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“So exactly how much of these investigations into arousal blockers is real, and how much of it is simply a band-aid explanation slapped on an existing problem.”

Okay, but google “Breastfeeding and Sex” If it was a problem before the baby, then why would it be something you would be concerned about at all?

lh
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lh
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Maybe those hormonal issues after pregnancy have more to do with the man after all? Many fathers say how overwhelming those emotions are when she gives birth to your first child. Many fathers seem to enjoy playing with the child, cuddling and all that. And last but not least there won’t be many men who aren’t more caring and less tough with their women in that phase.

And of course there is the issue of the unconditional (because helpless) love of your child, which is so rare for men and which may make fatherhood so attractive for many.

CaveClown
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So a new dad goes beta? I can see that.

Hmmm..the one and only time I’ve ever cried as a grown ass man was the birth of my daughter.

Andy
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“Many fathers seem to enjoy playing with the child, cuddling and all that.”

Meh, for the time that they’re nursing full time all they do is sleep, cry, and shit. I don’t know any guy that has gotten attached to their infant at that stage. I would hold them, but just to get them to stop crying. They’re much more fun when they can interact with you.

dutchman
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@CaveClown

“He’s gone full beta since then, and she has since gotten fat and sloppy because of it.”

God, this is so depressing. Women really do love opportunistically. There really is no loyalty to the man himself, just his frame.

CaveClown
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Dutchman,

He had a job loss and bankruptcy from a work injury, with surgery and months of rehab.

The previous 20 years of good frame counted for exactly nothing.

dutchman
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Is this still where they are now, or did they divorce?

CaveClown
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Andy,

Yeah babies are the worst in my book. Love my kids, but my God I hate babies.

Took me until my kids were about 3 before we were tight.

Anybody else get accused of being jealous of the kids getting more attention from their mom than you do?

Big shaming trope that I heard when they were young.

CaveClown
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Dutchman,

Still there, not divorced.

3 years ago he almost had an affair. (Not sure if he really did or not) This was just before his injury.

Big fights, lots of drama.

She accidently got pregnant during that time.

Oops.

Andy
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Andy
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Anybody else get accused of being jealous of the kids getting more attention from their mom than you do? Pffft. I WAS jealous. I’ll admit it. My first kid wasn’t that bad, mostly because I forced my wife to stop nursing at 12 months because I couldn’t take it anymore. Plus we were both nervous her “condition” was permanent. The second one… When he got old enough he would be nursing and look me straight in the eye and you could tell he was like “fuck you, she’s mine.” You could say it was projection, but I’m telling you. He… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Andy Okay, but google “Breastfeeding and Sex” If it was a problem before the baby, then why would it be something you would be concerned about at all? How many of these men had wives who were giving sex grudgingly and they didn’t realize it? I’d wager it’s a large percentage. Hell, since sexual frequency in marriage is such a taboo topic, most men are absolutely clueless as to how much they’re getting from their wife vs other men. The fact remains that married women in the developed world are withholding sex en mass. So finding a “chemical” that supposedly… Read more »

dutchman
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@Jeremy

“The fact remains that married women in the developed world are withholding sex en mass.”

I suppose there is no data, but one wonders how long this has been going on. Were marriages mostly sexless in 1850? How about 1550?

Andy
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“How many of these men had wives who were giving sex grudgingly and they didn’t realize it?”

Dude, did you google it? They’re all women asking that question on baby/nursing websites. Women talking to women.

Jeremy
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Honestly, why should I google that? Why should I listen to what women talk to women about publicly as if there is no duplicity in it? Why should I let what women say about themselves wholly influence me as to what their responsibilities to their husband might be? There was a time when people stopped and engaged in deep thought and discussion about topics. There is value in that activity. Simply saying, “Go google that” removes all thought and discussion, it is a wet blanket. You’ve said over and over, “google says”… I can accept that openly manipulated google searches… Read more »

Jeremy
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Here’s another way of looking at it Andy… All this study that you can find on google has discussed this one particular chemical that stops sexual arousal in women (and supposedly men), right? Why is there no chemical therapy then for women with this condition? We have hundreds of types of pills for women who want to control their fertility… why no pill that restores normal sexual function after pregnancy? There’s no risk to the baby at that point, no reason to not resume normal relations, so why have the ladies not clamored for therapy for this condition? Shouldn’t that… Read more »

Morgan
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Morgan
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We can boil femininity down to two basic qualities, beauty and respect. If I were to choose to basic qualities of masculinity it would be strength and restraint. Feminism has perverted the equality of the sexes by mixing up these qualities and saying women should be strong and beautiful, while men should show restraint and respect. It’s why we see men demonized whenever they are displaying strength, even when it’s appropriate (unless it’s protecting a woman, then it’s usually OK). Men and women have always been equals, feminism undoes that balance by taking both strengths for women and leaving both… Read more »

teddj4g
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CC – “So a new dad goes beta? I can see that.” I was already heading down the beta path, but the birth if my son pushed me over the edge. In fact, within six months I quit the band I was gigging with and severed contact with all built 2 of my friends. Why? My ex said I was spending too much time away from home and my responsibilities were with her and my family. And of course my duty as a husband and father was to do whatever she needed from me… There’s no doubt I did it… Read more »

Andy
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Why should I let what women say about themselves wholly influence me as to what their responsibilities to their husband might be? haha. Deep breaths. I don’t disagree with any of your points. My point is that “Responsibility” doesn’t mean shit to me. Fucking a woman that isn’t thoroughly enjoying being fucked is BORING to me. Desire is what concerned me. Not responsibility. Consequently why would a cave man Alpha only fuck a girl that he knocked up just because he knocked her up? I mean for fuck’s sake, they probably didn’t even know why or why not women got… Read more »

kobayashii1681
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RT: “Indifference. It kind of comes back to the Rejection and Revenge post: http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/15/rejection-revenge/ Too many guys think a NEXT (even a tactical NEXT) should be some kind of punishment for a girl who’s just not that responsive. It’s not, it’s pragmatism, plain and simple; particularly for a guy in Striver’s situation. Red Pill, 49 y.o., he’s aware of the social trends women kvetch on and on about. He knows the stats with women complaining about a lack of “good guys” with maturity and status, yet this woman is playing high school Game with him? NEXT. Striver doesn’t have time… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Andy Ok, that’s a good point. I still say that if a wife is not aroused by what you do, pregnant, not pregnant, or nursing, doesn’t matter. You should be able to arouse her except in literally the most rare of circumstances. If you can’t, I believe that says that she’s holding back and she doesn’t actually consider you alpha. Consequently why would a cave man Alpha only fuck a girl that he knocked up just because he knocked her up? I mean for fuck’s sake, they probably didn’t even know why or why not women got pregnant at all.… Read more »

benfromtexas
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Women holding out sex doesn’t happen if she respects the man. Women fuck who they are attracted to.
This hormone conversation is bullshit. Women use that because either the dude was a Beta or he turned beta before/after the baby & the women lose attraction because he’s a boy now, so he’s not respected now.

Dragonfly
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@Andy!! “The second one… When he got old enough he would be nursing and look me straight in the eye and you could tell he was like “fuck you, she’s mine.” You could say it was projection, but I’m telling you. He was claiming her. My wife agreed with me.” LOL … my husband says the exact same thing about our second little boy. And when my husband teased him and tried to kiss him on the cheek (still nursing), the baby actually hit his face away. He did it several times to see if the baby would still push… Read more »

Dragonfly
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typo alert… “They’re mutual dissatisfaction with postpartum or nursing feeds on their **dissatisfaction** making it actually grow the more they complain.”

Andy
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“This hormone conversation is bullshit. Women use that because either the dude was a Beta or he turned beta before/after the baby & the women lose attraction because he’s a boy now, so he’s not respected now.” “I still say that if a wife is not aroused by what you do, pregnant, not pregnant, or nursing, doesn’t matter.” Okay, there isn’t much research on this and obviously you can’t experience what I did. But two kids in a row, desire vanishes after baby. Comes back after weaning. That’s my experience. And it makes sense to me from an evolutionary perspective.… Read more »

kobayashii1681
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IB: “Would I tolerate your endless abuse, attempt to understand WTH is going on in your heads, if I did not love you? Would I come where I was obviously not wanted and attempt to communicate with any of you?

…Were I indifferent to you, I would not be here…”

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/24454595.jpg

Hahaha….Holy shit!

CaveClown
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From a resource stand point it makes more sense to keep the man around to supporter and the kid, and then sneak alpha in on the side.

NOT overtly replace him.

Cuckold makes more sense.

Jeremy
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@Andy A nursing woman devotes all her resources to ensure the survival of the baby. That’s a mischaracterization. Even in still-primitive cultures, it is not uncommon for women to give birth and then continue doing whatever survival task they were doing that same day, even the same hour after delivery. Women (and babies) are tougher than you’re giving them credit for, hell they’re tougher than they give themselves credit for. Developed-world cultures have coddled pregnant women or women who just gave birth to a huge degree. A significant portion of that coddling did not exist in village/cave-man cultures, women were… Read more »

CaveClown
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Which means either a post partum woman that won’t put out considers him a beta to be cuckolded, or she would also cuckold an alpha at that point. But a strict caveman view would dictate that she keep a man around. So…I think that means that it’s a test at best and lack of attraction at worst. Hormones whatever, she is still a conscious human being that could choose to fuck or at least supplement orally or whatever. Which means that her needs, disguised as the kids needs, came first. I would guess that the thought of putting out never… Read more »

Vitriol
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@benfromtexas “She talks about wanting to get married and have kids, but she has yet to bother settling down. The men she meets doesn’t meet her “bragging rights” celebrity standards she was used to, so she just works & goes home. It’s crazy to observe knowing what I know. Women psychologically do pay a price hopping from cock to cock. The number of alphas or at least their last Alpha really does affect them in a crazy way.” It doesn’t need to be a woman who was hanging around guys who are literally celebrities. Most American women have a story… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@benfromtexas, pay don’t play I think you’re right about “bragging rights”. It’s just like Rollo says, she doesn’t care about who you are as a person, she only cares about What you are and how you make her feel. Women want men for their status above anything else. I forget the study, but I remember seeing one that found women want (in order): 1) status 2) looks 3) intelligence, but only inasmuch as it brings you status Status is of course an abstraction for many things: money, power, fame, etc., but the bottom line is that it’s your status she… Read more »

benfromtexas
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@Jeremy

“Except, women are not programmed to seek genetic diversity, men are. It is men who appreciate a variety of women, not women who appreciate a variety of men. Women are the ones with strict physical requirements on men, it’s the men who can find something attractive about most any (in-shape) woman. Women don’t give two spits if they had an asian baby, a black baby, or any other specific race so long as they took seed from and delivered for alpha.”

That’s a money quote!

benfromtexas
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@Vitriol

Agreed.

Andy
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Andy
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Except, women are not programmed to seek genetic diversity, men are. It is men who appreciate a variety of women, not women who appreciate a variety of men.

What planet are you living on?

Jeremy
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I agree it is going too far to say that solipsism can be ignored in a family dynamic. That’s not what I was trying to imply. What I was trying to say is that I know what women are going to tell me, I know what to expect from mainstream search engines, I know what to expect from the FI w.r.t. whether or not women should satisfy their man. Why should I base my understanding of what gets a woman going on what women tell me? That’s basic blue-pill thinking. There’s very little different from that than being a blue-pill… Read more »

Stingray
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Even to Trad-Con Evangelical women the thought of any responsibility to their husband doesn’t even enter their heads.

I would argue that in certain ways, it is harder for trad-con women to see this responsibility because they already believe they are following the traditional conservative role. To tell them that they actually are not is a slap to the face and can make it harder for them to see.

Seraph
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@Striver, Thanks for the feedback. I don’t think I would try to escalate with hiking bitch. Frankly I was turned off when she did that. I’m not going to escalate when I’m turned off. It’s really too direct to be a shit test. Thinking about it, I think the anger toward the woman is misplaced. She DID communicate to you how she felt, although she did it somewhat covertly. It was up to you to respond keeping your needs in mind. Whether it was a shit test or she was communicating that she just wasn’t interested in you sexually would… Read more »

Stingray
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What planet are you living on?

We don’t seek a variety of men. We are always on the search the better man. That’s not seeking diversity. It’s seeking hypergamously.

insanitybytes22
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“The fact that it was necessary for Dragonfly to point any consideration for their husbands out to them speaks volumes.”

It sure does. It speaks volumes of total bovine poo from someone who is more interested in confirming your biases, than in speaking the truth. She’s a smart girl, she knows how to tell you exactly what you all want to hear, but it isn’t kind and it isn’t loving.

insanitybytes22
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“Dalrock’s recent posts about the War Room movie is a prime example of why Evangelical women have no consideration of male headship, much less consideration of responsibilities to their husbands.”

And Dalrock is a few doughnuts short of a full dozen. He also orbits on his own little planet confirming his own biases. Male solipsism, it’s a real things in the world.

bluepillprofessor
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@blaximus: “This is part of being a father/having kids. Sacrifice can take many different forms. Sure, you still have your biological needs as a man, but you also have a newborn that has ( unwittingly ) wrecked your woman’s body internally and externally. The sex will resume” The problem is that women have almost TOTAL control over when, how, how much, and who they sex up. Society and conventions and law give them almost total power. By ceding the tiny bit of power the man still retains you feed the monster after midnight and turn your marriage into a low… Read more »

Andy
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We don’t seek a variety of men. We are always on the search the better man.

I don’t know. I went to college. It sure didn’t seem like every subsequent guy a girl fucked was better than the last.

Sun Wukong
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@Andy

It’s not what you think is better or what actually is better. It’s what she *perceives* as better vs. what she has right now.

kfg
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kfg
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@Andy: I’m going to use Vox Day’s terminology here (http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html) , because I feel it is more appropriate for the situation than the simple binary model. The blue pill delta man has a very specific set of criteria for what constitutes a “better” man – and he is wrong. But his wrong belief is largely extinct proof, because no matter how many times women demonstrate to him that he is wrong he defends his position by projecting the error onto the women. When a women ditches the engineer for a homeless musician, a guy hanging out in the Home Depot… Read more »

Stingray
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kfg’s got it. Only “better” man might confuse some. More arousing man is closer. More tingle inducing man.

Atticus
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I have to go with Andy on the sex after child birth one. I have four kids spaced 18-28 months apart and my experience was identical to his. Once the breast feeding stopped the horniness returned. My wife had episiotomies at each birth as well, so it was three months of blow jobs and hand jobs before I resumed regular sex. She generally stopped breast feeding right around three months. People are saying the hormone issue is an excuse, I don’t know for sure, but I can tell you my wife got postpartum blues that increased in severity with each… Read more »

Guy
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As many of you have already mentioned in the stories you’ve shared, it is usually the father who pushes their children towards a higher standard of success. This is critical for the child to develop into a successful adult that excels in society. It is usually the mother who coos and coddles their children. This is also necessary, as it’s vitally important for children to feel loved and accepted by their parents. This shows the necessity of the roles of both mothers and fathers in the development of children. If a child faces only criticism, it may have lasting effects… Read more »

Scribblerg
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IB seems like she’s trying to redeem herself, lol. BPD, bipolar – who knows, she surely a fucking cunt either way. Although for her to think she has a shred of credibility after her relentless insults and disparaging of men here surely indicates some kind of cognitive defect. And try to keep in mind IB I didn’t lash out at you until after you insulted and denigrated every man here. Try to keep that in mind – you asks for it @Dragonfly – You consistently demonstrate that you take being a woman and the complementarity of men and women to… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Rollo

I’m not sure what counterpoint you’re trying to express to me. Where am I in error (honest question) ? Are you cautioning me against ignoring what is said in hen circles?

lh
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lh
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@Rollo: I noticed all but one (who had very dark hair and grayed very early) of my friends got their first gray hair at the time of their first child. And those without children don’t get gray hair (at least till now). How did you make it so long without gray hair?
[You’re kidding, right? Heheh]

Atticus
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Rollo. On the Red Pill Parenting, the one thing I want to impart to my sons that I never learned until I came here is that men and women are different. Call me stupid, but I really thought it was same features, different fixtures. How we love, how we’re attracted, how we communicate, loyalty, honesty, etc. We are just different. That’s why her behavior never made sense and drove me crazy. Thinking back on it, I know my Dad knew it. He must have just assumed the we all knew it too and never told us. That’s a mistake I… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Frankly I’ve been wondering when Stingray would show up in this thread, it is about time. Where’s Elspeth at? Stingray I would argue that in certain ways, it is harder for trad-con women to see this responsibility because they already believe they are following the traditional conservative role. To tell them that they actually are not is a slap to the face and can make it harder for them to see. Sure, because it is not in their interest to see such a thing. Because if they saw such a thing, they might wind up acting on it, and actually… Read more »

Stingray
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Hypergamy doesn’t care who you think is a “better man”.

Exactly.

Stingray
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@ Anonymous Reader, actually acting on it would be oh so much work. Partly, but it is also a power play, just like all feminists (or women. As you said, AWALT). And along with all those things you listed that Trad-Con women know, what they also have going for them is less cognitive dissonance. I tend to think hardcore feminists have more cognitive dissonance. Look at the SJW’s. There is a reason Vox Day is able to so accurately read them and come up with hard and fast laws. They fight so hard for their power and against that dissonance… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Seraph to Striver: Thinking about it, I think the anger toward the woman is misplaced. She DID communicate to you how she felt, although she did it somewhat covertly. It was up to you to respond keeping your needs in mind. Lately I’ve boiled down a lot of thinking and come up with two key facts that IMO drive women’s inborn behavior: 1. Covert estrus + the relative cost of ova vs. sperm. 2. Sexual dimorphism. Babies are expensive to women in a lot of ways, even now some number of women die in the process of pregnancy and childbirth.… Read more »

Jeremy
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I hear what you’re saying Rollo. I probably don’t have anything further to contribute on that topic, given that I have not stopped to consider the meaning behind those behaviors in detail.

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