The Red Pill Parent

red_pill_parent

This week I’ll be exploring a new angle in the Red Pill: how parenting and family relations influence and direct the Blue Pill conditioning of a generation, and what Red Pill aware men can do to redirect this. It was encouraging to see fathers and sons together at the Man In Demand conference. I honestly wasn’t expecting this, but it was a humbling experience to see fathers and sons coming to a Red Pill awareness together. I also met with a few men who told me their sons had either turned them on to my books or that they would be required reading for their sons before they got out of their teens.

One of the greatest benefits of the conference was the inspiration and material I got from the men attending. A particular aspect of this was addressing how men might educate and help others to unplug and in that lay a wealth of observations about how these men’s upbringings had brought them to both their Blue Pill idealisms and ultimately their Red Pill awareness.

I’m beginning this series with some of these observations, but I plan to break protocol and be a bit more proscriptive in the last essay with regard to what I think may be beneficial ways to be a Red Pill parent. In The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine I included a chapter which outlined how men are primarily conditioned for lives and ego-investments in a Blue Pill idealism that ultimately prepares them for better serving the Feminine Imperative when their usefulness is necessary to fulfill women’s sexual (and really lifetime) strategies.

That chapter is only available in the book, but if you have it, it might be helpful to review it after you read this.

Reader (and MiD conference attendee) Jeremy had an excellent observation from Solipsism II:

@Capper

The only thing I take issue with is the advice, from the book that his wife read, which told her to place her husband above her children. Children come first for a mother, and they should for the father too. I’m not advocating to neglect her husband, but he needs to accept some biological facts and not be hurt because of it

What you’re repeating there is actually the first steps of a hostage crisis. That is first-wave-feminism boilerplate response. It is the first redirection in a misdirection perpetuated by women in order to sink any notion that men should have some authority on matters. Think of the children. It’s been repeated for so long, it’s a cliche…

It’s typical crab-basket behavior. Women seek power over their lives and somehow instinctively believe that the only way to achieve power is to take someone else’s power away. So they attack male authority by placing children above the man. This then becomes a stick with which to beat male authority into submission, as the woman is allowed to speak for the needs of the children. This is literally textbook subversion, and plays out on so many levels of human culture it tends to make one consider how boring humanity must look to any alien life that happens to stumble across our unremarkable corner of the universe.

When the children’s needs become the “throne” of the household, and the wife is allowed to speak for the children’s needs, then the authority of the household becomes a rather grotesque combination of immediate child needs and female manipulation. Worse still, the children are now effectively captives of the wife, because at any time she can accuse the husband of anything the law is forced to throw him in handcuffs for, and take away the kids.

What you’re repeating is the first steps in that hostage situation. Equalists will try to convince you of the logic that children come first, that children are the future, that all of that which makes them better is more important than anything else. This is bullshit.

Do you think cavemen sat around in caves all day playing and socially interacting with their babies? Do you think they had some kind of fresh-gazelle-delivery service that allowed him to interact with the children directly? Do you think the mothers were not under exactly the same survival condition, needing to forage for carrots, potatoes, berries, etc, while the men hunted and built structures? Do you think the “children” came first in any other era of humanity? If so, you are very sadly mistaken.

Children are more than capable of getting everything they need to know about how to live simply by watching their parents live a happy life together. This is how humans did things for eons, changing that order and putting the “children first” is frankly perverse and the beginning of the destruction of the family. Children are more than information sponges, they are blank minds that want desperately to be adult. Children want to understand everything that everyone around them understands, which is why a parent telling a child that you’re “disappointed” in them is more effective than a paddling. If you focus on children, you are frankly just spoiling them with attention that they will never receive in the real world. If instead you focus on yourself and your spouse, you will raise children that see you putting yourself as the MPO (as Rollo calls it), and your marriage/partnership as an important part of what you do each day.

Don’t put the children first. That’s essentially like negotiating with a terrorist, they’ll only make more demands on you until the cops storm the plane and lots of people get shot.

Your Mental Point of Origin should never waver from yourself.

American Parenting is Killing American Marriage

Of course, Ayelet Waldman’s blasphemy was not admitting that her kids were less than completely wonderful, only that she loved her husband more than them. This falls into the category of thou-shalt-have-no-other-gods-before-me. As with many religious crimes, judgment is not applied evenly across the sexes. Mothers must devote themselves to their children above anyone or anything else, but many wives would be offended if their husbands said, “You’re pretty great, but my love for you will never hold a candle to the love I have for John Junior.”

Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex. A father could admit to desiring his wife without seeming like a distracted parent, but society is not as willing to cut Ms. Waldman that same slack. It is unseemly for a mother to enjoy pleasures that don’t involve her children.
There are doubtless benefits that come from elevating parenthood to the status of a religion, but there are obvious pitfalls as well. Parents who do not feel free to express their feelings honestly are less likely to resolve problems at home. Children who are raised to believe that they are the center of the universe have a tough time when their special status erodes as they approach adulthood. Most troubling of all, couples who live entirely child-centric lives can lose touch with one another to the point where they have nothing left to say to one another when the kids leave home.
In the 21st century, most Americans marry for love. We choose partners who we hope will be our soulmates for life. When children come along, we believe that we can press pause on the soulmate narrative, because parenthood has become our new priority and religion. We raise our children as best we can, and we know that we have succeeded if they leave us, going out into the world to find partners and have children of their own. Once our gods have left us, we try to pick up the pieces of our long neglected marriages and find new purpose. Is it surprising that divorce rates are rising fastest for new empty nesters? Perhaps it is time that we gave the parenthood religion a second thought.

I think these quotes outline the dynamic rather well; a method of control women can use to distract and defer away from Beta husbands is a simple appeal to their children’s interests as being the tantamount to their own or their husbands. If the child sits at the top of that love hierarchy and that child’s wellbeing and best interests can be defined by the mother, the father/husband is relegated to subservience to both the child and the mother.

This gets back to the preternatural Empathy myth that women, by virtue of just being a woman, has some instinctual, empathetic insight about placing that child above all else. That child becomes a failsafe and a buffer against having to entertain a real relationship with the father/husband and really consider his position in her Hypergamous estimate of him.

If that man isn’t what her Hypergamous instinct estimates him being as optimal (he’s the unfortunate Beta), then “she’s tolerating his presence for the kids’ sake.” Jeremy was responding to a comment made by Capper about an incident where a woman was being encouraged to put her husband before her kids in that love hierarchy priority. The fact that this is so unnatural for a woman that it would need to be something necessary to train a woman to speaks volumes about the facility with which women presume that their default priority ought to be for her kids.

Most men buy into this prioritization as well. It seems deductively logical that a woman would necessarily need to put her child’s attention priorities well above her husband’s. What’s counterintuitive to both parents is that it’s the health of their relationship (or lack) that defines and exemplifies the complementary gender understanding of the child. Women default to using their children as cats paws to assume primary authority of the family, and men are already preconditioned to accept this as the normative frame for the family.

As with all your relations with women, establishing a strong Frame is essential. The problem for men with even the strongest initial Frame with their wives is that they cede that Frame to their kids. Most men want the very best for their children; or there may be a Promise Keepers dynamic that guy is dealing with an makes every effort to outdo, and make up for, the sins of his father by sacrificing everything, but in so doing he loses sight of creating and maintaining a dominant Frame for not just his wife, but the state of his family.

It’s important to bear in mind that when you set the Frame of your relationship, whether it’s a first night lay or a marriage prospect, women enter your reality and your frame – the same needs to apply to any children within that relationship. Far too many fathers are afraid to embody that strong authority and expect their wives (and children) to recognize what should be his primary place in the family.

The fear is that by assuming this position they become the typical asshole father they hoped to avoid for most of their formative years. Even for men with strong masculine role models in their lives, the hesitation comes from a culture that ridicules fathers, or presumes they are potentially violent towards children. Thus the abdication of fatherly authority, in as positive a tense as possible, is abdicated before that child is even born.

Ectogenesis

At the Man in Demand conference last weekend I had a young guy ask me what my thoughts were about a man’s being interested in becoming a single parent of his own accord. I had this same question posed to me during my second interview with Christian McQueen and essentially it breaks down to a man supplying his own sperm, buying a suitable woman’s viable ovum to fertilize himself, and, I presume, hire a surrogate mother to carry that child to term. Thereupon he takes custody of that child and raises it himself as a single father.

In theory this arrangement should work out to something similar to a woman heading off the the sperm bank to (once again Hypergamously) select a suitable sperm donor and become a single parent of her own accord. It’s interesting that we have institutions and facilities like sperm banks to ensure women’s Hypergamy, but men, much less heterosexual men, must have exceptional strength of purpose and determination to do so.

Despite dealing with the very likely inability of the surrogate mother to disentangle her emotional investment in giving birth to a child she will never raise (hormones predispose women to this) a man must be very determined financially and legally to become a single father by choice. In principle I understand the sentiment of Red Pill men wanting to raise a child on their own. The idea is to do so free from the (at least direct) influence of the Feminine Imperative. However, I think this is in error.

My feelings on this are two part. First, being a complementarian, it is my belief that a child requires two healthy adult parents, male and female, with a firm, mature grasp of the importance, strengths and weaknesses of their respective gender roles (based on biological and evolutionary standards). Ideally they should exemplify and demonstrate those roles in a healthy fashion so as a boy or a girl can learn about masculinity and femininity from their respective parents’ examples.

Several generations after the sexual revolution, and after several generations of venerating feminine social primacy, we’ve arrived at a default collective belief that single mothers can perform the function of modeling and shaping masculinity in boys as well as femininity in girls equally well. The underlying social message in that is that women/mothers can be a one woman show with regard to parenting and thus men, fathers or the buffoons mainstream culture portrays them as, are superfluous to parenting – nice to have around, but not vital. This belief also finds fertile ground in the notion that men are obsolete.

Secondly, for all the equalist emphasis of Jungian gender theories about anima/animus and balancing feminine and masculine personality interests, it is evidence of an agenda to suggest that a woman is equally efficient in teaching and modeling masculine aspects to children as well as any positively masculine man. With that in mind, I think the reverse would be true for a deliberately single father – even with the best of initial intents.

Thus, I think a father might serve as a poor substitute for a woman when it comes to exemplifying a feminine ideal. The argument then of course is that, courtesy of a feminine-centric social order, women have so divorced themselves of conventional femininity that perhaps a father might teach a daughter (if not demonstrate for her) a better feminine ideal than a woman. Conventional, complementary femininity is so lost on a majority of women it certainly seems like logic for a man to teach his daughter how to recapture it.

Raising Betas

This was the trap that 3rd wave feminism fell into; the belief that they knew how best to raise a boy into their disempowered and emasculated ideal of their redefined masculinity. Teach that boy a default deference and sublimation to feminine authority, redefine it as respect, teach him to pee sitting down and share in his part of the choreplay, and well, the world is bound to be a better more cooperative place right?

So it is for these reason I think that the evolved, conventional, two-parent heterosexual model serves best for raising a child. I cannot endorse single parenthood for either sex. Parenting should be as collaborative and as complementary a partnership as is reflected in the complementary relationship between a mother and father.

It’s the height of gender-supremacism to be so arrogantly self-convinced as to deliberately choose to birth a child and attempt to raise it into the contrived ideal of what that “parent” believes the other gender’s role ought to be.

This should put the institutionalized social engineering agenda of the Feminine Imperative into stark contrast for anyone considering intentional single parenthood. Now consider that sperm banks and feminine-specific fertility institutions have been part of normalized society for over 60 years and you can see that Hypergamy has dictated the course of parenting for some time now. This is the definition of social engineering.

I’ll admit that when I got the question of single fatherhood I was a bit incredulous of the mechanics of it. Naturally it would be an expense most men couldn’t entertain. However, as promised, I did my homework on it, and found out that ectogenesis was yet another science-fiction-come-reality that feminists have already considered and have planned for:

Prominent feminists and activists, including Andrea Dworkin and Janice Raymond, have concluded that not only will women be further marginalized and oppressed by this eventuality, but they will become obsolete.

Fertility, and the ability to be the species’ reproductive engine, are virtually the only resources that women collectively control, they argue. And, although women do have other “value” in a patriarchal society–child rearing, for example–gestation remains, worldwide, the most important.  Even in the most female-denigrating cultures women are prized, if only, for their childbearing. If you take that away, then what? This technology becomes another form of violence.

Women already have the power to eliminate men and in their collective wisdom have decided to keep them. The real question now is, will men, once the artificial womb is perfected, want to keep women around?

[…]“We may find ourselves without a product of any kind with which to bargain,” she writes. “We have to ask, if that last power is taken and controlled by men, what role is envisaged for women in the new world? Will women become obsolete?”

This was a great article and it came at an auspicious time – the time we find women sweating about having their sexual market leverage with men potentially being undercut by sex-bots and/or immersive virtual sex substitutes.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

421 comments on “The Red Pill Parent

  1. He thought that wives who do that are using it as an excuse to mask their lack of real, raw, passionate desire for their husbands.

    haha, sounds like he’s a lucky guy. How many wives does he have? Personally my wife didn’t deny me anything while nursing. She never does. But at this point in my life if she isn’t into it, it doesn’t do much for me. Look, if it wasn’t a hormonal problem then why would she go back to normal after weaning?

    My point is this: I’m going to say a vast majority of women lose their sex drive while nursing. Increased prolactin, decreased estrogen, decreased testosterone, no ovulation… No cave man Alpha is going to put up with that shit when the next girl is ready to go. Personally my view is that fatherhood was probably by committee in our past.

    1. @andy

      I don’t think fatherhood was by committee. Most men would be hunting, farming, or fighting in wars. The solution to what you’re describing is a harem. That’s why men had them, and the conquered tribes were castrated and turned into eunuchs to protect the harems.
      The one man one woman concept was for betas, heiring property, or arranged marriages for breeding Alphas(a general would want his daughter married to another general) think along the lines of breeding dogs. Kings were usually warriors and they would want their sons to be guaranteed good breeding stock and they would want “daddy’s little girl” to NOT be in a harem, so monogamous marriage would be promoted by the king for lower ranking individuals or to ensure the stability of civil society.

  2. Whether a gal loses her sex drive hormonally or not during pregnancy and nursing isn’t really the issue though, is it?

    If she feared his leaving, if she truly recognized him as a high value man that wouldn’t tolerate lack of sex, she would put out anyway. At the very least she would attempt to please.

    Short of the actual physical inability to fuck (bed rest and such) it seems like a test or a lack of attraction.

  3. Hell now that I think about it, years ago my sister had a major medical problem where she was bed ridden for months.

    She didn’t want her husband to go without so she had him masturbate onto her tits while she talked dirty or just made eye contact. (Yes, sister and I are close enough she tells me this shit)

    Said she didn’t want him to fuck the chick at Starbucks that likes him so much.

    Sister has mad attraction for this guy.

  4. @Cave

    Yeah maybe. My theory is that their focus would be on provisioning. Plus it would make sense in an evolutionary sense that the woman would want the next kid to be from a different man anyway to diversify DNA.

  5. “Sister has mad attraction for this guy.”

    So say she still has attraction, but can’t perform. Do you think the Alpha is going to wait around when there’s fully functioning hotties walking around the cave?

  6. @Andy

    My point is this: I’m going to say a vast majority of women lose their sex drive while nursing. Increased prolactin, decreased estrogen, decreased testosterone, no ovulation… No cave man Alpha is going to put up with that shit when the next girl is ready to go. Personally my view is that fatherhood was probably by committee in our past.

    What should make you question your conclusion there is that newer research is finding that greater percentage than that of marriages are considered “Sexless” to begin with. So exactly how much of these investigations into arousal blockers is real, and how much of it is simply a band-aid explanation slapped on an existing problem. How much of this research into hormonal changes in women due to pregnancy suffers from confirmation bias? Don’t kid yourself about science, it is not a perfect community. Conclusions you see in the mainstream are often wrong, and many times wrong for politically motivated reasons. The beauty of it is that it is supposed to be self-correcting, but you can put off that correction for a long time.

    Don’t presume you must self-sacrifice… that is blue pill thinking.

  7. Which is why my sis attempted to keep him happy.

    She knew he would probably fuck someone else if she didn’t.

    He’s gone full beta since then, and she has since gotten fat and sloppy because of it.

    I see the point about post partum chicks being about provisioning, but I also wonder if it’s a rationalization on the man’s part.

  8. “So exactly how much of these investigations into arousal blockers is real, and how much of it is simply a band-aid explanation slapped on an existing problem.”

    Okay, but google “Breastfeeding and Sex” If it was a problem before the baby, then why would it be something you would be concerned about at all?

  9. Maybe those hormonal issues after pregnancy have more to do with the man after all? Many fathers say how overwhelming those emotions are when she gives birth to your first child. Many fathers seem to enjoy playing with the child, cuddling and all that. And last but not least there won’t be many men who aren’t more caring and less tough with their women in that phase.

    And of course there is the issue of the unconditional (because helpless) love of your child, which is so rare for men and which may make fatherhood so attractive for many.

  10. So a new dad goes beta? I can see that.

    Hmmm..the one and only time I’ve ever cried as a grown ass man was the birth of my daughter.

  11. “Many fathers seem to enjoy playing with the child, cuddling and all that.”

    Meh, for the time that they’re nursing full time all they do is sleep, cry, and shit. I don’t know any guy that has gotten attached to their infant at that stage. I would hold them, but just to get them to stop crying. They’re much more fun when they can interact with you.

  12. @CaveClown

    “He’s gone full beta since then, and she has since gotten fat and sloppy because of it.”

    God, this is so depressing. Women really do love opportunistically. There really is no loyalty to the man himself, just his frame.

  13. Dutchman,

    He had a job loss and bankruptcy from a work injury, with surgery and months of rehab.

    The previous 20 years of good frame counted for exactly nothing.

  14. Andy,

    Yeah babies are the worst in my book. Love my kids, but my God I hate babies.

    Took me until my kids were about 3 before we were tight.

    Anybody else get accused of being jealous of the kids getting more attention from their mom than you do?

    Big shaming trope that I heard when they were young.

  15. Dutchman,

    Still there, not divorced.

    3 years ago he almost had an affair. (Not sure if he really did or not) This was just before his injury.

    Big fights, lots of drama.

    She accidently got pregnant during that time.

    Oops.

  16. Anybody else get accused of being jealous of the kids getting more attention from their mom than you do?

    Pffft. I WAS jealous. I’ll admit it. My first kid wasn’t that bad, mostly because I forced my wife to stop nursing at 12 months because I couldn’t take it anymore. Plus we were both nervous her “condition” was permanent. The second one… When he got old enough he would be nursing and look me straight in the eye and you could tell he was like “fuck you, she’s mine.” You could say it was projection, but I’m telling you. He was claiming her. My wife agreed with me.

  17. @Andy

    Okay, but google “Breastfeeding and Sex” If it was a problem before the baby, then why would it be something you would be concerned about at all?

    How many of these men had wives who were giving sex grudgingly and they didn’t realize it? I’d wager it’s a large percentage. Hell, since sexual frequency in marriage is such a taboo topic, most men are absolutely clueless as to how much they’re getting from their wife vs other men. The fact remains that married women in the developed world are withholding sex en mass. So finding a “chemical” that supposedly does this is far too simple an explanation to be the whole story. It’s basically the “headache” story but with a psuedo-scientific backing.

  18. @Jeremy

    “The fact remains that married women in the developed world are withholding sex en mass.”

    I suppose there is no data, but one wonders how long this has been going on. Were marriages mostly sexless in 1850? How about 1550?

  19. “How many of these men had wives who were giving sex grudgingly and they didn’t realize it?”

    Dude, did you google it? They’re all women asking that question on baby/nursing websites. Women talking to women.

  20. Honestly, why should I google that? Why should I listen to what women talk to women about publicly as if there is no duplicity in it? Why should I let what women say about themselves wholly influence me as to what their responsibilities to their husband might be?

    There was a time when people stopped and engaged in deep thought and discussion about topics. There is value in that activity. Simply saying, “Go google that” removes all thought and discussion, it is a wet blanket. You’ve said over and over, “google says”… I can accept that openly manipulated google searches say this, and that wikipedia may even say this… that doesn’t mean it is based in reality.

    My point from the beginning has been that:
    1) A married women signed onto the responsibility of satisfying her mans needs.
    2) A pregnant/recently-pregnant woman should not automatically be given an excuse from that responsibility.
    3) Claims of chemical imbalance/PMS are as old-as-fucking-time when women want to manipulate men into giving them a break from responsibilities.
    4) Letting women continue to use this excuse, even if they’re making it by the millions, is blue-pill world, not informed.

    No, I’m not going to google it Andy. Engage in the discussion, tell me why my reasoning is wrong instead of pointing me to what millions of women will try to self-justify among themselves.

  21. Here’s another way of looking at it Andy…

    All this study that you can find on google has discussed this one particular chemical that stops sexual arousal in women (and supposedly men), right?

    Why is there no chemical therapy then for women with this condition? We have hundreds of types of pills for women who want to control their fertility… why no pill that restores normal sexual function after pregnancy? There’s no risk to the baby at that point, no reason to not resume normal relations, so why have the ladies not clamored for therapy for this condition?

    Shouldn’t that be telling you exactly what you need to know about the story you’re subscribing to?

  22. We can boil femininity down to two basic qualities, beauty and respect. If I were to choose to basic qualities of masculinity it would be strength and restraint. Feminism has perverted the equality of the sexes by mixing up these qualities and saying women should be strong and beautiful, while men should show restraint and respect. It’s why we see men demonized whenever they are displaying strength, even when it’s appropriate (unless it’s protecting a woman, then it’s usually OK). Men and women have always been equals, feminism undoes that balance by taking both strengths for women and leaving both weaknesses to men, while continuing to claim equality.

    Which is why I believe that single fathers are in a better position to raise children than single mothers ( although two complimentary parents are best). You can teach beauty and respect through strength and restraint, not the other way around. And you can’t teach anything through strength and beauty except narcissism or self loathing. That’s the legacy feminism is leaving for our children.

  23. CC – “So a new dad goes beta? I can see that.”

    I was already heading down the beta path, but the birth if my son pushed me over the edge. In fact, within six months I quit the band I was gigging with and severed contact with all built 2 of my friends. Why? My ex said I was spending too much time away from home and my responsibilities were with her and my family. And of course my duty as a husband and father was to do whatever she needed from me…

    There’s no doubt I did it to myself. Willingly. And believed it was the right thing to do the entire time.

  24. Why should I let what women say about themselves wholly influence me as to what their responsibilities to their husband might be?

    haha. Deep breaths. I don’t disagree with any of your points. My point is that “Responsibility” doesn’t mean shit to me. Fucking a woman that isn’t thoroughly enjoying being fucked is BORING to me. Desire is what concerned me. Not responsibility.

    Consequently why would a cave man Alpha only fuck a girl that he knocked up just because he knocked her up? I mean for fuck’s sake, they probably didn’t even know why or why not women got pregnant at all. Fatherhood by committee y’all.

  25. RT: “Indifference.

    It kind of comes back to the Rejection and Revenge post:
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/15/rejection-revenge/

    Too many guys think a NEXT (even a tactical NEXT) should be some kind of punishment for a girl who’s just not that responsive. It’s not, it’s pragmatism, plain and simple; particularly for a guy in Striver’s situation.

    Red Pill, 49 y.o., he’s aware of the social trends women kvetch on and on about. He knows the stats with women complaining about a lack of “good guys” with maturity and status, yet this woman is playing high school Game with him?

    NEXT. Striver doesn’t have time to entertain a woman trapped in an adolescent social skill set. Nor should he have to with the glaringly observable, available options to a man in his position.

    Divorced at 49, Red Pill aware, he knows the score; and it should be an insult to him that women cry to their girlfriends and online about wanting a “great guy” in his demographic, yet they still think playing high school Game will work on him (even at 49) because men are just that stupid.

    NEXT. No post-Wall woman should EVER have the temerity to play that shit. She should thank whatever god she worships he’s entertaining her at all.”

    Gold!

  26. @Andy

    Ok, that’s a good point.

    I still say that if a wife is not aroused by what you do, pregnant, not pregnant, or nursing, doesn’t matter. You should be able to arouse her except in literally the most rare of circumstances. If you can’t, I believe that says that she’s holding back and she doesn’t actually consider you alpha.

    Consequently why would a cave man Alpha only fuck a girl that he knocked up just because he knocked her up? I mean for fuck’s sake, they probably didn’t even know why or why not women got pregnant at all. Fatherhood by committee y’all.

    I think you’re answering your own question there. No one understood the mechanics of pregnancy back then… but men had constant needs for sex, so they satisfied them. I think this actually says that women should be chemically adapted to deal with sexual relations while dealing with kids, not the opposite.

  27. Women holding out sex doesn’t happen if she respects the man. Women fuck who they are attracted to.
    This hormone conversation is bullshit. Women use that because either the dude was a Beta or he turned beta before/after the baby & the women lose attraction because he’s a boy now, so he’s not respected now.

  28. @Andy!! “The second one… When he got old enough he would be nursing and look me straight in the eye and you could tell he was like “fuck you, she’s mine.” You could say it was projection, but I’m telling you. He was claiming her. My wife agreed with me.”

    LOL … my husband says the exact same thing about our second little boy. And when my husband teased him and tried to kiss him on the cheek (still nursing), the baby actually hit his face away. He did it several times to see if the baby would still push him away from us, and the baby boy never failed.

    Also… why would you listen to women talking to other women about that issue. They are just complaining that they don’t feel the desire, and affirming the “hen session” with each other at the same time. They’re mutual dissatisfaction with postpartum or nursing feeds on their This happens with women commonly. Even yesterday in my Bible study, we mentioning how taking care of our husbands and houses (cleaning) was like a ministry to our husbands in a way, and then somehow the all female group started in on how our husbands love to come home to clean houses, but that they just don’t understand how much we actually do and take it all for granted. Even one of the older women that I really respect said while shaking her head, “They just don’t have a clue.” It was all starting to take on a sarcastic, bitching tone. I quickly quipped that it truly was a great ministry to our husbands because we love them, and to our children because they depend on organization and cleanliness in order to function well. I looked at every woman in the circle, and talked a little about how much our work is needed and truly appreciated in the long run. And they all changed their perspective (at least outwardly) and agreed with me, the encouragement seemed to get them to feel better about their efforts.

    Women love to complain, but there’s a dichotomy there in their minds of what they want to do, and what they actually desire to do. All the women there (except maybe a couple) desire to have a clean home 24/7, and it’s annoying to them that the kids mess it up or that they don’t always feel appreciated by their husbands… but in reality, they LOVE having clean homes and desire to clean it (again, a couple of exceptions where the woman actually hates cleaning). But during this hen fest, of course they couldn’t realize that they themselves actually benefit from the home being clean and their children also, they just wanted to complain incessantly, and rag on their husbands as “not having a clue” because it bonds them as women because they “have a clue.” Hope you understand this… it’s hard to explain.

  29. “This hormone conversation is bullshit. Women use that because either the dude was a Beta or he turned beta before/after the baby & the women lose attraction because he’s a boy now, so he’s not respected now.”

    “I still say that if a wife is not aroused by what you do, pregnant, not pregnant, or nursing, doesn’t matter.”

    Okay, there isn’t much research on this and obviously you can’t experience what I did. But two kids in a row, desire vanishes after baby. Comes back after weaning. That’s my experience. And it makes sense to me from an evolutionary perspective. A nursing woman devotes all her resources to ensure the survival of the baby. Getting pregnant with another baby while nursing an infant is going to endanger the infant. Alpha is driven off to other women. Next genetic father is different to diversify DNA. It coincides perfectly with what we already know.

  30. From a resource stand point it makes more sense to keep the man around to supporter and the kid, and then sneak alpha in on the side.

    NOT overtly replace him.

    Cuckold makes more sense.

  31. @Andy

    A nursing woman devotes all her resources to ensure the survival of the baby.

    That’s a mischaracterization. Even in still-primitive cultures, it is not uncommon for women to give birth and then continue doing whatever survival task they were doing that same day, even the same hour after delivery. Women (and babies) are tougher than you’re giving them credit for, hell they’re tougher than they give themselves credit for. Developed-world cultures have coddled pregnant women or women who just gave birth to a huge degree. A significant portion of that coddling did not exist in village/cave-man cultures, women were expected to continue to work on what it took for herself and everyone else to survive.

    Getting pregnant with another baby while nursing an infant is going to endanger the infant.

    This just is not true. There’s lots of women who get pregnant while nursing.

    Alpha is driven off to other women. Next genetic father is different to diversify DNA. It coincides perfectly with what we already know.

    Except, women are not programmed to seek genetic diversity, men are. It is men who appreciate a variety of women, not women who appreciate a variety of men. Women are the ones with strict physical requirements on men, it’s the men who can find something attractive about most any (in-shape) woman. Women don’t give two spits if they had an asian baby, a black baby, or any other specific race so long as they took seed from and delivered for alpha.

    1. @Jeremy

      “Except, women are not programmed to seek genetic diversity, men are. It is men who appreciate a variety of women, not women who appreciate a variety of men. Women are the ones with strict physical requirements on men, it’s the men who can find something attractive about most any (in-shape) woman. Women don’t give two spits if they had an asian baby, a black baby, or any other specific race so long as they took seed from and delivered for alpha.”

      That’s a money quote!

    2. @Jeremy

      Why should I let what women say about themselves wholly influence me as to what their responsibilities to their husband might be?

      Our feminine primary social order has conditioned several generations of women believe they have no responsibilities to their husbands.

      Read Dragonfly’s last post. Even to Trad-Con Evangelical women the thought of any responsibility to their husband doesn’t even enter their heads. The fact that it was necessary for Dragonfly to point any consideration for their husbands out to them speaks volumes.

      I got into all this in the Solipsism posts, but it’s important to consider how feminine solipsism needs to be accounted for in a family dynamic.

  32. Which means either a post partum woman that won’t put out considers him a beta to be cuckolded, or she would also cuckold an alpha at that point.

    But a strict caveman view would dictate that she keep a man around.

    So…I think that means that it’s a test at best and lack of attraction at worst.

    Hormones whatever, she is still a conscious human being that could choose to fuck or at least supplement orally or whatever.

    Which means that her needs, disguised as the kids needs, came first.

    I would guess that the thought of putting out never even occurs, unless she knew the man EXPECTED it, would not tolerate going without, and her gut says that he could replace her.

    Keep in mind a caveman would of just raped her if she didn’t put out. So there was massive expectations of sex and huge repercussions for not.

  33. @benfromtexas

    “She talks about wanting to get married and have kids, but she has yet to bother settling down. The men she meets doesn’t meet her “bragging rights” celebrity standards she was used to, so she just works & goes home. It’s crazy to observe knowing what I know. Women psychologically do pay a price hopping from cock to cock. The number of alphas or at least their last Alpha really does affect them in a crazy way.”

    It doesn’t need to be a woman who was hanging around guys who are literally celebrities. Most American women have a story about some loser they were banging between their teens and early 20s who was “so amazing” just because she formed a strong emotional attachment to him because he was the first or one of the first guys she ever fucked. The guy could be hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot looking for work right now, but she will still compare every other guy she meets to him and think the other ones don’t measure up.

    I agree that this phenomenon (although well documented here and by Roissy/Heartiste) is very odd. It must be some kind of strong biological imprinting they get from guys they fuck when they’re young so they would hang around them for awhile to benefit their children. Although, from a practical standpoint in today’s world, it means they’re pretty much incapable of really caring about any guy too much after they become “alpha widows” at a young age and basically destroy any chance they have of entering into a LTR down the road. This is so common among American women that I think it’s one of the reasons none of them are really suitable for relationships.

  34. @benfromtexas, pay don’t play

    I think you’re right about “bragging rights”. It’s just like Rollo says, she doesn’t care about who you are as a person, she only cares about What you are and how you make her feel.

    Women want men for their status above anything else. I forget the study, but I remember seeing one that found women want (in order):

    1) status
    2) looks
    3) intelligence, but only inasmuch as it brings you status

    Status is of course an abstraction for many things: money, power, fame, etc., but the bottom line is that it’s your status she wants above all else. The bragging is just the outward sign of that truth.

  35. Except, women are not programmed to seek genetic diversity, men are. It is men who appreciate a variety of women, not women who appreciate a variety of men.

    What planet are you living on?

  36. I agree it is going too far to say that solipsism can be ignored in a family dynamic. That’s not what I was trying to imply.

    What I was trying to say is that I know what women are going to tell me, I know what to expect from mainstream search engines, I know what to expect from the FI w.r.t. whether or not women should satisfy their man. Why should I base my understanding of what gets a woman going on what women tell me? That’s basic blue-pill thinking. There’s very little different from that than being a blue-pill beta and asking the hottie who you’ve been beta-orbiting what you should do to be attractive to girls like her.

    As such, I wholly question the notion that google/wikipedia/mainstream soft-science would tell me that women need “time away” from sex around pregnancy and post-partum. In fact I would go so far as to suggest that such advice is harmful to women.

    1. @Jeremy, the maxim is always true: believe what women do, not what they say. Behavior is the only reliable gauge of motivation and intent.

      That said, part of observing that behavior is listening to how women’s words change when they are speaking in a same sex peer group, when they are in mixed company and when they speak individually to a man or another woman. Then observe the resulting behavior that conflicts with that interchange.

      If you want to fully understand the sociological and psychological influences that motivate women’s internal conflicts, listening to their rationales and social exchanges is part of observing their behaviors.

      Consider the Sandberg revelation on Open Hypergamy for instance. It does line up with women’s behaviors, but it also lays bear the truth about women’s sexual strategies.

      In a same-sex peer discussion women will reveal what they think about men. They’ll shamelessly confess to the worst intents with regards to men, who they fuck and want to fuck, and who they want to lock down in a Beta provisioning scheme.

      They’ll proudly bellow about their plans within an all-woman environment, but that story will change dramatically and duplicitously when in mixed company or one-on-one with a man.

      Then we consider the actual behavior of that woman after considering her narratives’ back and forth in those settings.

      Listening to this isn’t ‘believing’ what women say, it’s observation of a dynamic, and one that will benefit a Red Pill awareness.

  37. Even to Trad-Con Evangelical women the thought of any responsibility to their husband doesn’t even enter their heads.

    I would argue that in certain ways, it is harder for trad-con women to see this responsibility because they already believe they are following the traditional conservative role. To tell them that they actually are not is a slap to the face and can make it harder for them to see.

    1. @Stingray, Dalrock’s recent posts about the War Room movie is a prime example of why Evangelical women have no consideration of male headship, much less consideration of responsibilities to their husbands.

      The popularized churchian default is to presume feminine supremacy of purpose. Anything that benefits women, should benefit men by association.

  38. @Striver,

    Thanks for the feedback. I don’t think I would try to escalate with hiking bitch. Frankly I was turned off when she did that. I’m not going to escalate when I’m turned off. It’s really too direct to be a shit test.

    Thinking about it, I think the anger toward the woman is misplaced. She DID communicate to you how she felt, although she did it somewhat covertly. It was up to you to respond keeping your needs in mind.

    Whether it was a shit test or she was communicating that she just wasn’t interested in you sexually would not matter if you kept true to your own needs and desires.

    Part of the beauty of Red Pill is being able to understand what she REALLY is communicating in the first place. Being Blue Pill in that situation I would be completely baffled by the reaction and run circles trying to parse it out.

    Beta frustration comes from being completely clueless about how things really work and being stymied no matter what you do. It’s like sitting down to play a board game where the other person doesn’t explain the rules. You are going to lose and are going to absolutely aggravated on your way to losing.

    One thinks backs with that Red Pill Lens and you suddenly see those incidents where a chick was trying to brush you off AND the times they were trying to express interest. In both cases that Blue Pill fucking fog left you stumbling around, bumping into shit.

    Rejoice, dude. You are clearing away that fog, and you have access to information and fellow men who can help parse shit out.

    One final thought…

    Yes, the hiker’s statement seems like an attempt to shame your male sexuality, to tamp it down.

    (shrug)

    Don’t blame her. It’s the culture that teaches that as a tactic.

    It should have no claim on you. If you two worked together, she might have some leverage but out in the world…?

    You are a fucking man. “Looking at her” like that is part of your makeup. It is part of what makes you a man. She can’t handle it or doesn’t want it, at least from you, seeya!

    I remember I was dating this one girl briefly, and she had some sort of magazines in her apartment, maybe they were lingeries catalogs. Anyway, they caught my eye, and I briefly sorted through them. I realized what I was doing and looked and with a grin said, “Sorry.”

    She smiled and waved her hand and said, “I expect that from you. You’re a man!”

    Fucking A…

  39. What planet are you living on?

    We don’t seek a variety of men. We are always on the search the better man. That’s not seeking diversity. It’s seeking hypergamously.

  40. “The fact that it was necessary for Dragonfly to point any consideration for their husbands out to them speaks volumes.”

    It sure does. It speaks volumes of total bovine poo from someone who is more interested in confirming your biases, than in speaking the truth. She’s a smart girl, she knows how to tell you exactly what you all want to hear, but it isn’t kind and it isn’t loving.

    1. Insanity, speaking as the only male authority you acknowledge, I command you to go to your blog, apologize to your commenters for lying and misleading them, explain to them you are repenting for it, then delete your blog and return to your husband and ask him to forgive your sins of gossip, your sins of pride and your sins of attempting to instruct men with your head uncovered.

      Confess all of your indemnities to your husband and ask him how you might atone with him to be made right in your husband’s eyes. Then seek counseling for your bipolar disorder. While there is no cure, I’m told it can be managed.

  41. “Dalrock’s recent posts about the War Room movie is a prime example of why Evangelical women have no consideration of male headship, much less consideration of responsibilities to their husbands.”

    And Dalrock is a few doughnuts short of a full dozen. He also orbits on his own little planet confirming his own biases. Male solipsism, it’s a real things in the world.

  42. @blaximus: “This is part of being a father/having kids. Sacrifice can take many different forms. Sure, you still have your biological needs as a man, but you also have a newborn that has ( unwittingly ) wrecked your woman’s body internally and externally. The sex will resume”

    The problem is that women have almost TOTAL control over when, how, how much, and who they sex up. Society and conventions and law give them almost total power. By ceding the tiny bit of power the man still retains you feed the monster after midnight and turn your marriage into a low sex marriage overnight.

    The sex will NOT necessarily resume once she has total power over you. Nothing is less attractive to a woman than giving her all the power. So if you do, don’t be surprised when you post on /r/deadbedrooms in about 6 months after having had sex twice.

    If you let a woman have total control over sex she will use it to cut you off. Every….single….time.

    There are several “choke points” in marriage that women and society give women to assume total power. After the honeymoon is one. After the kids is another. This is when women take total control- and when the seeds of divorce are planted.

    Women are made to fuck within a few weeks after giving birth and there is nothing biologically preventing them. If you feed into this anti-sex trope your life will degenerate into a living Hell.

    Ask me how I know.

  43. We don’t seek a variety of men. We are always on the search the better man.

    I don’t know. I went to college. It sure didn’t seem like every subsequent guy a girl fucked was better than the last.

  44. @Andy

    It’s not what you think is better or what actually is better. It’s what she *perceives* as better vs. what she has right now.

  45. @Andy: I’m going to use Vox Day’s terminology here (http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html) , because I feel it is more appropriate for the situation than the simple binary model.

    The blue pill delta man has a very specific set of criteria for what constitutes a “better” man – and he is wrong.

    But his wrong belief is largely extinct proof, because no matter how many times women demonstrate to him that he is wrong he defends his position by projecting the error onto the women.

    When a women ditches the engineer for a homeless musician, a guy hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot looking for work or a vicious drug lord it is because, for her needs, he is the better man.

  46. I have to go with Andy on the sex after child birth one. I have four kids spaced 18-28 months apart and my experience was identical to his. Once the breast feeding stopped the horniness returned. My wife had episiotomies at each birth as well, so it was three months of blow jobs and hand jobs before I resumed regular sex. She generally stopped breast feeding right around three months.

    People are saying the hormone issue is an excuse, I don’t know for sure, but I can tell you my wife got postpartum blues that increased in severity with each child. By the second (there was a miscarriage before the birth of the second so she was pregnant 5 times in a 6 year span), she was seeing a counselor and by the fourth she had almost OD’d and was having suicidal thoughts. We always had sex so it wasn’t a control issue, and I wouldn’t have let it become a control issue. There were starfish nights, but they decreased as the time got further from the actual birth.

    I have a hard time understanding how guys can appreciate hormones and shark week’s challenges, and not realize how a female body can be affect by child birth for longer than a few weeks.

  47. As many of you have already mentioned in the stories you’ve shared, it is usually the father who pushes their children towards a higher standard of success. This is critical for the child to develop into a successful adult that excels in society.

    It is usually the mother who coos and coddles their children. This is also necessary, as it’s vitally important for children to feel loved and accepted by their parents. This shows the necessity of the roles of both mothers and fathers in the development of children. If a child faces only criticism, it may have lasting effects on their self esteem. If a child is never criticized, they may never grow up into an adult.

    The negative effects of too much coddling are so widespread, that we actually have sayings that illustrate it.

    “A ____ only a mother could love”

  48. IB seems like she’s trying to redeem herself, lol. BPD, bipolar – who knows, she surely a fucking cunt either way. Although for her to think she has a shred of credibility after her relentless insults and disparaging of men here surely indicates some kind of cognitive defect. And try to keep in mind IB I didn’t lash out at you until after you insulted and denigrated every man here. Try to keep that in mind – you asks for it

    @Dragonfly – You consistently demonstrate that you take being a woman and the complementarity of men and women to heart, I hope it’s true IRL. So let me ask you, do you still wear tight yoga pants when you are out and about? Or has it sunk in that this necessarily excites the sexual interest of men you have no intent of having sex with and is inconsistent with the values you profess (which I believe you take seriously)?

  49. @Rollo

    I’m not sure what counterpoint you’re trying to express to me. Where am I in error (honest question) ? Are you cautioning me against ignoring what is said in hen circles?

  50. @Rollo: I noticed all but one (who had very dark hair and grayed very early) of my friends got their first gray hair at the time of their first child. And those without children don’t get gray hair (at least till now). How did you make it so long without gray hair?
    [You’re kidding, right? Heheh]

  51. Rollo. On the Red Pill Parenting, the one thing I want to impart to my sons that I never learned until I came here is that men and women are different. Call me stupid, but I really thought it was same features, different fixtures. How we love, how we’re attracted, how we communicate, loyalty, honesty, etc. We are just different.

    That’s why her behavior never made sense and drove me crazy. Thinking back on it, I know my Dad knew it. He must have just assumed the we all knew it too and never told us. That’s a mistake I won’t make.

    It all seems so simple now.

  52. Frankly I’ve been wondering when Stingray would show up in this thread, it is about time. Where’s Elspeth at?

    Stingray
    I would argue that in certain ways, it is harder for trad-con women to see this responsibility because they already believe they are following the traditional conservative role. To tell them that they actually are not is a slap to the face and can make it harder for them to see.

    Sure, because it is not in their interest to see such a thing. Because if they saw such a thing, they might wind up acting on it, and actually acting on it would be oh so much work. Besides, they know full well they aren’t really obliged to do anything more than any other woman in the church hen party.

    That is because even Tradcon women know the divorce laws, the threatpoint they have. So they know that they are free to mistreat their Dear Husband all they want, as DH typically has no, none, not any, zero recourse – explicitly including whatever church she picked out for them – therefore he’s in a hostage situation. Doubly so when children are involved.

    Because tradcon women are women first, and tradcon second, and frankly AWALT, although some can stifle it.

  53. Jeremy, YaReally had a similar criticism in the “looks” comment thread about never listening to what a woman says.

    I just think it’s important to make a distinction between believing women’s words to the point of adjusting your own beliefs and behaviors, and listening to what she’s saying as an observation of behavior.

    Like I said, it’s no secret women are far more visceral in their conversations with groups of only women. Whether what they say belies their motives is up for debate, but listening to how women modulate themselves in those various intersexual conversations outlines a greater dynamic of female nature.

  54. @ Anonymous Reader,

    actually acting on it would be oh so much work.

    Partly, but it is also a power play, just like all feminists (or women. As you said, AWALT).

    And along with all those things you listed that Trad-Con women know, what they also have going for them is less cognitive dissonance. I tend to think hardcore feminists have more cognitive dissonance. Look at the SJW’s. There is a reason Vox Day is able to so accurately read them and come up with hard and fast laws. They fight so hard for their power and against that dissonance that they can be read incredibly easily.

    Trad-Con women, while I believe they still have some dissonance, have much less because they have the power of churchianity behind them. They have the other wives behind them, they have the white knight men of the church behind them and their pastor as well (the AMOG) whom they just so respect.

    All of this is like an iron curtain. There is little pulling that back to see the FI.

  55. Seraph to Striver:
    Thinking about it, I think the anger toward the woman is misplaced. She DID communicate to you how she felt, although she did it somewhat covertly. It was up to you to respond keeping your needs in mind.

    Lately I’ve boiled down a lot of thinking and come up with two key facts that IMO drive women’s inborn behavior:

    1. Covert estrus + the relative cost of ova vs. sperm.
    2. Sexual dimorphism.

    Babies are expensive to women in a lot of ways, even now some number of women die in the process of pregnancy and childbirth. Not many but some. Getting the “best” sperm matters at a very primitive level, and if that means cuckolding then so be it. There’s a reason Sigma’s continue to exist, and there’s a reason genetically more women in any given cohort had children than men. Covert signalling, not carrying grudges too far, “war bride” syndrome, and so forth all grow out of point 1.

    Men are big, fast and strong. Even a 50 year old man is bigger, faster and stronger than probably 99% of women, and the recent rigged Ranger evals simply demonstrates that once again. Women can’t hope to compete with us directly, either they engage us covertly, or they wrap us up in a giant ball of restrictions and limitations. For 99.999999% of human history, women have had to use covert communications both with each other and with the men who “just get it”; talking past the men, wheedling and nice-niceing the men, etc. is in their genes.

    So covert communication goes with sexual dimorphism and covert estrus. None of that excuses a woman over 20 who uses stupid high school crap like “Don’t look at me that way”. I can think of any number of responses, starting with, “Honey, what makes you think you’re worth looking at?” depending on what my interests are in the situation.

    Whether it was a shit test or she was communicating that she just wasn’t interested in you sexually would not matter if you kept true to your own needs and desires.

    Maintain frame at all times. Frame of iron. Doesn’t matter if it’s a new relationship or some woman you’ve been with for 20+ years, maintain frame. Cripes, I still remember the times my mother shit tested me, after my father died. At the time I thought she was slipping into dementia, to say such weird crap to me. Now I see it for what it was – her unconscious female nature wanted to know if I was strong enough to protect her or not, and the usual testing was via “say outrageous crap and see what he does”.

  56. I hear what you’re saying Rollo. I probably don’t have anything further to contribute on that topic, given that I have not stopped to consider the meaning behind those behaviors in detail.

  57. And Dalrock is a few doughnuts short of a full dozen. He also orbits on his own little planet confirming his own biases. Male solipsism, it’s a real things in the world.

    Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy, dearie. Your reflexive Disqualify! doesn’t cut any ice in this place because this is a group of men, not one of your aging, postmenopausal, 2nd stage feminist hen parties.

    Now run along, I bet your attic is getting stinky again…

  58. Atticus, likely you were force fed the same 2nd stage feminist crap that I was: Men and women are exactly the same except women have babies. Far too many tradcons have that crap in their heads as well, they just express it differently.

    Science has blown that out of the water. The fact that giving estrogen to men shrinks their brains ought to shut the mouth of every feminist, but of course it won’t.

    As for your father, yep, he likely assumed you’d just get it. My father was the same, he grew up among men, spent some time in the military, was a trained manager of the old school, he never got backtalk from my mother likely because he established early on that wasn’t going to happen.

    A lot of the androsphere arguing, research, etc. is really just rediscovering things that men before us knew without even thinking about it. Because feminism has brainwashed us all.

    If you are not actively rejecting feminism and all its cowshit tenets, you are passively accepting it.

  59. @Stingray

    I would argue that in certain ways, it is harder for trad-con women to see this responsibility because they already believe they are following the traditional conservative role. To tell them that they actually are not is a slap to the face and can make it harder for them to see.

    I assume by using the term trad-con women, you’re referring to women who did not ride the CC until 28, then become christian purely because it is a beta-husband-rich environment.

  60. I ran into that exact thing with my traditional conservative wife.

    Says she honors her husband, others tell her she honors her husband, bit behind the curtains is a very different story.

    Begrudgeingly doing chores, never mind “homemaking”, and then complaining about being a maid is not honoring. Using these values as leverage in the relationship is not honoring.

    Traditional chicks are very good at pretending the man is the head of the household, when the truth is that they only have headship with her permission and approval.

    Harsh reality that a chick that has seemingly traditional values is only using those to her advantage, and knows it. Virginity falls along these lines too, which is why I laugh at the guys that pine over having them.

  61. Rollo
    I just think it’s important to make a distinction between believing women’s words to the point of adjusting your own beliefs and behaviors, and listening to what she’s saying as an observation of behavior.

    Another way to think about this: women’s words are data, not facts. Often women will say what they wish was true rather than what is true, for example. It’s like asking a 12 year old “Did you do your math homework?” and the answer is “Uh….yeahhh…can I go play?”. The 12 year old wishes the math was done, even though it isn’t. So it is with women. It’s a form of lying, true, but women don’t see it that way completely.

    The actions of people show what’s important to them, no matter what their words.

    Like I said, it’s no secret women are far more visceral in their conversations with groups of only women.

    Over at Jezebel if you look at the old articlle about the Duke woman who rated men sexually, in the comments one can easily find women who admit they kept or still keep notes like that on the men in their past – technique, penis size, smell, and so forth. Any number of Jezebels had no problem with women rating men, or with women sharing that info with their gal pals, the only quibble they had was letting a Powerpoint of it get out of hand.

    Reading that comment stream might just make the average Tradcon’s head hurt, because of the raw truth about women it reveals.

    Whether what they say belies their motives is up for debate, but listening to how women modulate themselves in those various intersexual conversations outlines a greater dynamic of female nature.

    Men, try this: try listening to women in some coffee shop, restaurant, or other public place as if you were a spy. Strive to hear their words in a subtle way, but give no reaction. Do not let on for a second that you can hear what they are saying. Don’t bother to form an opinion or even attempt to decode the conversation, just let the words flow over you like water in a brook, or like a sprinkler on the lawn. Pay attention to the tone of voice, the pacing, how they cut in on each other, etc. If you don’t think too much after a while you may be able to clue in a bit on the subtextual information, the half-said things that they get but often we don’t. BTW many gay men talk like women, and likely this is how women wind up with gay friends.

    If a man known to them walks up, listen to how the flow of words changes instantly. Instantly! No transition, just a total shift of tone, of pace, etc. Because the situational dynamic has changed.

  62. Traditional values

    Virgins

    Good girls

    All just various flavors of the same hypergamy.

    Same chicks, different paint jobs.

  63. Hypergamy doesn’t care who you think is a “better man”.

    I mean I suppose it’s possible women have zero interest in sexual variety. Is that your point? I find that hard to believe. You can’t tell me the mystery of an unknown man doesn’t impact her level of attraction. I mean did nobody else go to college? I got laid for two reasons. I was there. I had a penis. I didn’t see much hypergamous scrutinization.

  64. @ Jeremy


    After childbirth I am prone to give a woman a pass. They have a volatile hormonal cocktail inside of them and it takes many of them months to get fully back to being themselves.

    Why? Why assume that the presence of your sexuality in her life is bad for her during a hormonal mix? I was reading a while back that sex during menstruation, when done correctly, actually alleviates many of the symptoms of some women. I would argue that human life evolved to accommodate persistent male sexual needs in most aspects of a woman’s life, whether she wants to admit that or not.

    – It’s not a matter of my sexuality is bad for her during a hormonal mix, although this is more than just a ” mix “. It’s been my experience after 2 pregnancies with 2 different women, that the hormonal shift over 9 months is significant and then suddenly ( after giving birth ) she’s left with a mish-mash of hormones that are at levels no longer needed to support pregnancy. Things have to get back to normal. he time needed for that is highly individualistic, according to what I’ve learned from talking to other men who’ve gone through this ( and even commenters here..). Sex during menstruation is a completely different animal.

    Keep in mind, you’re talking to someone who has never been a father, and never had a serious LTR for that matter. From that perspective, my best option is to force you to ask these questions of yourself. It’s your choice to question your judgement or not, but from my perspective it is not an automatic that male sexuality is a “bad thing” when women are mixed-up hormonally.

    – My point is not that male sexuality is a bad thing. Not at all. I’m not a doctor, so I lack the ability to clinically explain the role of hormones in males and females, but what I can tell you is that if anyone, male or female has a drastic ( and that’s the key word here ) shift in hormones, the changes in biological functions and even personality can be huge. If you had a significant shift in Thyroid/Estrogen/Testosterone believe me you would not recognize yourself judging by how you’d feel physically or emotionally. Out of range hormones can kill a man’s ability to get an erection. That wouldn’t say anything about you other than you’re experiencing technical difficulties.

    This is part of being a father/having kids. Sacrifice can take many different forms. Sure, you still have your biological needs as a man, but you also have a newborn that has ( unwittingly ) wrecked your woman’s body internally and externally. The sex will resume, let her heal up and get her hormones back in line. Big picture and all that.

    This seems like blue pill thinking to me, because you’re finding a reason to self-sacrifice instead of exploring the idea that maybe, biologically, it’s actually better if you don’t self-sacrifice.

    I can see how this would look like Blue Pill thinking, but for my part I disagree. In my case, both wives still attempted to sexually please me, but it was different in that their bodies temporarily betrayed them. The STRENGTH of the desire was off kilter. For the 9 months prior to giving birth, both still had significant sex drives, in most cases it was even a little higher. In both cases everything eventually went back to normal. This is what I refer to when I spoke of sacrifice – having the patience and ability to see this situation for what it was medically, and being reasonable.

    Of course, if things never went back to pre-birth circumstances, that would have been a totally different set of circumstances completely.

  65. Jeremy,

    What I mean by tradcon women is what CaveClown described above. A woman who touts traditional values but does not actually practice them. Most of the time, these women lead from the neck.

  66. “I didn’t see much hypergamous scrutinization.”

    You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Look at the men who didn’t get laid. They were there too.

  67. @CaveClown

    There’s a loose friend of mine, more like a nice guy who is a friend of a friend. I’ve been trying to introduce him to this stuff. He’s very very christian and is absolutely insistent that the woman he finds also be christian. He shares his stories with a friend of mine, who relates them to me.

    Almost without fail, the women he’s been dating for about the past 10 years all went to church purely to find a mark to use. They literally operated like con artists, pretending to be christian, pretending to agree with the teachings there, and then acting extraordinarily differently in the relationship. The one exception among his stories is the one girl who was clearly mental and needed mental help. She unfortunately was the hardest for him to next, because she clearly needed help, but my friend just could not spend the time on a woman who needed therapy more than a man in her life (I recall being quite saddened myself at the story). We have just barely managed to keep this guy from putting a ring on one of these snakes, but he’s still single so far.

    One of these “Christian” woman literally expected the two of them to eat out at restaurants for every single meal, and to go on vacations regularly. When my friend confronted this girl about her total lack of interest in cooking at home and cleaning up afterwards (even together) as a “date” instead of spending money, that conversation turned into her demanding an allowance from him. At one point in the relationship, he pulled out his trusty paperback-bible-of-male-reasoning and showed her a spreadsheet of how her demanded lifestyle is impossible, particularly on her tiny salary. Her response to him? “You just need to earn more.” That story still makes my jaw drop at the arrogance.

    1. @Jeremy

      I’ve had friends have similar experiences with women “posing” to be Christian to get a free ride. It’s amazing how common it is. Women go there after they’ve started to rot and their SMV is dropping like a rock. They also know that they can get more “control” over a lot of those men via having the church members help them out via peer pressure & male stupidity.

  68. You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Look at the men who didn’t get laid. They were there too.

    Yeah, but you had to be REALLY strange or ugly. Those girls were fucking HORNY.

  69. @Atticus

    ” I have a hard time understanding how guys can appreciate hormones and shark week’s challenges, and not realize how a female body can be affect by child birth for longer than a few weeks. ”

    … I’m finding this fascinating

  70. Jeremy,

    Not surprised.

    Looking back I think that is one of the reasons my oneitis is so strong, I thought I did it right.

    Traditional, virgin, big tits.

    So I ignored the dominating mother, weak father, and the obvious signs of crazy.

    I thought I was doing better than all you fuckers out there banging those sluts…lol

  71. @Andy

    I got laid for two reasons. I was there. I had a penis. I didn’t see much hypergamous scrutinization.

    I could also look at the sunrise and say it happened for two reasons, the earth orbits the sun, and the earth rotates on it’s axis. This explanation completely ignores how and why nuclear fusion happens. Don’t over-simplify for your own benefit when there’s tremendous value in knowing the details.

  72. “Yeah, but you had to be REALLY strange or ugly.”

    So, you did see it, even in a socially presorted environment, but disqualify it.

  73. @Jeremy

    It’s a true triumph of Third Wave Feminism that all women, regardless of their upbringing, assume they don’t need to bring anything to a long term relationship while a man has to bring the entire world. Hell all they have to be is a wet hole, and they only have to be that much until marriage. After that the Damocles Sword of modern divorce law hangs over the man’s head. All stick, no carrot. And they wonder why marriage rates are falling like a rock…

  74. At the moment, for me nihilism is where it’s at. Took the red pill 18 months ago, hit the gym, I’m 47 with a 30 year old main plate and 44 year old milf plate.
    I have one son 13 with my ex, would have liked more kids but now I just don’t believe in women they are not fit for purpose anymore.
    Basically have decided that at this point women are just for entertainment purposes, I’d hoped for so much more.
    I feel like I have had my purpose in life taken away from me and all I can see for the future is a selfish life of hedonism, while making sure I leave something for my son and educate him.
    Marriage is not an option, I’m sure I can prosper financially? But what’s it all about?

  75. Jeremy, another way to put what Stingray is saying: “backleading”. Ask anyone who dances touch-dance (ballroom, tango, jitterbug, etc.) about the strong&independent women who keep trying to lead, even as they are dancing backwards. “Lead me, but only where I want to go” is another way to put it.

    I know several tradcon men whose wives are all about teh submission in public, but from what those men have let out in bits and fragments over the years, Dear Wifey ain’t always so nice in private. Julian O’Dea once noted that women tend to reserve their bad behavior for private moments – no witnesses, y’see, and women do care what other women think of them.

  76. @ Andy

    ” Meh, for the time that they’re nursing full time all they do is sleep, cry, and shit. I don’t know any guy that has gotten attached to their infant at that stage. I would hold them, but just to get them to stop crying. They’re much more fun when they can interact with you.”

    This is why I love the comment section. Diverse opinions.

    I was attached to both my children from birth. For my 2nd child I was in the delivery room and cut the cord. My experience is 180 degrees different from yours.

  77. If you’re tying to tell me that college girls don’t like variety then I don’t know what to say. There’s a variety stage in there. If a virgin finds a stud how does she know he’s a fucking stud if she hasn’t been around the block? Rollo even says this in Preventative Medicine. If she didn’t get the variety stage in the 20’s she’ll look for it in her 40’s.

  78. @Andy

    Yeah, but you had to be REALLY strange or ugly. Those girls were fucking HORNY.

    The vast majority of my friends and I were a bit strange (nerdy betas), but not ugly. We just weren’t hot. We weren’t getting laid at all most of the time. When we did, it was the FUMPs. Never the slightly above average chicks. Never mind the true hotties.

    Hypergamy was very much in play during college and even high school in my experience. I want you to try something for me: go to a coffee shop near a high school or a college, pick a cute young chick, and ask her what she wants in a guy. Then pick her brains about the guys she’s had. You pay attention to her perception vs. your assessment of the dudes’ actual actions.

    Guarantee you you’ll see hypergamy in what you find. I know I have.

  79. @Blaximus & Atticus

    ” I have a hard time understanding how guys can appreciate hormones and shark week’s challenges, and not realize how a female body can be affect by child birth for longer than a few weeks. ”

    … I’m finding this fascinating

    Affected by? I never said not affected by. But I disagree with the automatic notion that the needs of the husband should automatically be curtailed. Somehow I really doubt that for most of the history of pre-language versions of humans, and in the 100,000 plus history of humanity that there was a significant portion of men outside of the modern developed world who said, “Oh, you’re still not feeling well? Well, ok, I’ll just self-sacrifice until you’re ready.”

    I honestly believe most males through history just demanded sexual attention. With the threat of starvation I’ll bet most women gave them what they could rather than using FI-biased science to come up with a “hormone” that explains their behavior.

    To me it’s more than interesting that when a man doesn’t behave as expected, he’s called irresponsible. When a woman doesn’t behave as expected, it’s just her hormones.

    And Blaximus, I did read your longer reply, and I don’t have any criticism of it. But I still don’t agree with you, from the single-guy-non-father perspective that might not mean shit.

  80. Stingray
    Trad-Con women, while I believe they still have some dissonance, have much less because they have the power of churchianity behind them. They have the other wives behind them, they have the white knight men of the church behind them and their pastor as well (the AMOG) whom they just so respect.

    Good point. I’m working up a set of links on male vs. female brains that I can drop as a stink bomb into any random “I Fucking Love Science” SJW crab pot. People who claim to “luv science” can get wound up into cognitive dissonance pretty fast when Science shows them to be utterly wrong. I don’t expect to change anyone’s minds, I just expect to cause some dissonance among the SJW / feminist set. Because they don’t reallly understand science, they just have used it for years as a tool to bash fundies with.

    I’ve stated before I expect feminists to abandon Science, in time, because it contradicts their pretty stories so completely. In a previous thread I posted a link to a small study on men and women undergoing hormone injections so they could pretend to be the opposite sex. Some of them had MRI’s done on their brains before, during and after the hormone treatments. The men treated with estrogen had their brains shrink, the women treated with testosterone had parts of their brains grow. Paging every 1970’s feminist, the clue phone is ringing…

    Now, many conservatives really only pay lip service to Science, too, because true Science is data driven; when the data says “That stuff you believe is WRONG” you either deny reality, or change your beliefs. Changing beliefs is not easy, and a lot of people seem to get cement in their brains at the age of 25. If not earlier.

    Of course, there’s a way to induce dissonance among the tradcons: quote the Bible. Start with Proverbs. I stopped a White Knight tradcon in his tracks a few months ago when he was starting to drone on about a Proverbial Woman and I cut in with “Which woman in Proverbs? The one who wipes her mouth? The one like a ditch a man can’t get out of? The one like dripping rain? The one that makes a man want to go live on his own roof? Which one?” He stopped talking and stared at me for a count of five, then dropped his eyes and changed the subject.

    Of course this only works on some, sometimes, some places; it depends on who the AMOG’s are and who the white knights are. I’m remembering Joseph of Jackson’s experience…

    All of this is like an iron curtain. There is little pulling that back to see the FI.

    “Iron curtain” is a good term. The historical object required a lot of energy to keep in place, and in time it failed because it cost too much and was no longer worth the effort.

  81. ” . . . I’d hoped for so much more.”

    Hope springs infernal. Hope was in Pandora’s box of evils, and the only one she managed to retain.

    “But what’s it all about?”

    Same thing it is for the sparrow, the elephant and the warthog. The problem with life not having a “higher” purpose is that it leaves you responsible for giving it purpose yourself. You have to take the blame for it.

    On the other hand, you get to take the credit for it as well.

  82. @bluepillprofessor

    ” ..The problem is that women have almost TOTAL control over when, how, how much, and who they sex up. Society and conventions and law give them almost total power. By ceding the tiny bit of power the man still retains you feed the monster after midnight and turn your marriage into a low sex marriage overnight.

    The sex will NOT necessarily resume once she has total power over you. Nothing is less attractive to a woman than giving her all the power. So if you do, don’t be surprised when you post on /r/deadbedrooms in about 6 months after having had sex twice.

    If you let a woman have total control over sex she will use it to cut you off. Every….single….time.”

    I agree and disagree with your statement.

    Yes, it appears women have total control over..sex.

    I’m of the mind that men must be smarter than allowing a woman that they are dealing with to CONTROL sex or anything else. You’re correct that it’s not attractive to women for a man to concede power, so DON’T DO THAT.

    I will never argue that there aren’t dead bedrooms all over the place. I’ve never experienced that in my marriages. Even prior to my divorce, sex was never an issue of a problem.

    I never accepted that women controlled sex, so whenever I encountered a woman that bought into those ideals, I avoided her or gave her a pump and dump.

    Men shouldn’t put up with any ” sex cut off “. If your in an LTR and you ever encounter a sex cut off, you must exit stage left. She’s telegraphing to you big time who she is. If you marry a chick that’s ever pulled the cut off, that is on you.

    PS.

    I support men who are married and find themselves in a zombie bedroom going out and satisfying their needs by any means necessary. Life. Is. Fucking. Short.

  83. @Anonymous Reader: “I know several tradcon men whose wives are all about teh submission in public, but from what those men have let out in bits and fragments over the years, Dear Wifey ain’t always so nice in private.”

    This is the secret of the Asian unicorn.

    ” . . . women tend to reserve their bad behavior for private moments – no witnesses, y’see, and women do care what other women think of them.”

    And this is the secret of Silver Head game.

  84. @Anonymous Reader

    I’ve stated before I expect feminists to abandon Science, in time, because it contradicts their pretty stories so completely.

    Nah, they’ll just co-opt it like the CAGW crowd did. Science is corruptible.

    Also, as an FYI, I’ve been a fairly serious salsa dancer for 12+ years now. So I know exactly what you mean when it comes to backleading.

    Interestingly enough in the social dance scene, backleading girls get their reputation preceding them a lot and find themselves not dancing as much as other girls very quickly. What’s more the good female teachers often stress to the girls the importance of a strong, but non-directing connection with their partner so that the dance can proceed. The last time I found myself in a backleader-rich environment was in college dance courses. I don’t see it nearly as much at the clubs.

  85. kfg – Just thought of an interesting experiment, it may be related to whatever “Silver Head game” is. A man has a woman who wears one face in public, another in private? Let bits and pieces of her private nastiness leak out. Indirectly, of course. Mention it to some of the men married to her gal pals, for example. A few tiny doses. It’ll get back to her.

    The effects should be interesting. This should only be tried when a man is fully operating with a ZFG frame, of course.

  86. @play don’t pay

    “At the moment, for me nihilism is where it’s at.”

    “Basically have decided that at this point women are just for entertainment purposes”

    “I feel like I have had my purpose in life taken away from me and all I can see for the future is a selfish life of hedonism”

    “Marriage is not an option”

    These statements sound like you’re heading in the right direction. It sounds depressing to some guys at first, but you’re better off enjoying your life and only using women for fun, rather than attempting to play by an old set of rules and destroying yourself in the process.

    When I look at the guys who are in my parents generation who played by those rules and got stuck in miserable marriages I don’t envy them at all.

  87. Missed this:

    “I’ve stated before I expect feminists to abandon Science, in time . . . ”

    This is already one of the foundational tenets of post modern, cultural Marxist thought, hence a foundational tenet of Patriarchy Theory.

    When science supports the narrative they will wield it as a weapon, but when it does not they will disqualify it. To them it’s just a rhetorical tool of the revolution, not something they believe in.

  88. ” . . . whatever “Silver Head game” is . . . ”

    A Silver Head (or Silverhead) is an alpha man with grey hair, analogous to the Silverback Gorilla. Silverhead Game is what keeps him rolling in 18 year olds.

    “Let bits and pieces of her private nastiness leak out. Indirectly, of course.”

    That is the meat of Women’s Circle game. Smile in your BFF’s face while at the same time poisoning her social well. This also how men are cut from access to women in the circle.

    Interestingly, it is also how those with NPD operate.

  89. @kfg

    That’s actually what caused me to begin questioning some of my more extreme Left friends. “Wait, you folks are real quick to rake an idiotic ultra conservative Christian over the coals for ignoring science, but the moment the science doesn’t fit your narrative it’s invalid? Somethin don’t jive here…”

    People that tell me that they believe in science will start denying it the moment it doesn’t fit what they believe. It’s at least excusable to pull this move in religion; religious texts are often touted as being “open to interpretation”. The sciences on the other hand? Dude it’s true or it ain’t. That’s the whole point of the scientific method.

    Yes, the results are always considered degrees of certainty rather than binary, but you don’t get to claim something is 100% false when the science says there’s a reasonably high chance that it’s true. It doesn’t work that way, otherwise it wouldn’t be called “science”. It would be called “religion”.

  90. @Sun

    That was 10 years ago. Now the people who speak as if they are “believers in the scientific method” literally come across as religious themselves. Gone is natural curiosity. Gone is inquisitiveness. Gone is humility in knowledge. What passes for doctrine for these people is what the typically government-funded, and often PC-sanitized-subject “scientists” say.

    It’s getting to a point where I’d rather call myself an engineer in public, just so I’m not associating myself with a field that is ever-more a servant of political winds rather than its own master.

    1. @Jeremy

      Good point. Science is just a political arm to control us now. If it goes along with the narrative being pushed, then good for our rulers. If not the change it, overlook it, or if you disagree then they destroy people in a modern day Inquisition.

  91. @Jeremy

    Engineers always make good scientists strictly because their paycheck depends on shit that actually works as predicted.

  92. Dinner last weekend in my back yard. Myself and my date with dear friends (married for almost 20 years). They have a 4 y/o son* who was in bed already.

    As the conversation split and my (male) friend and I were on our own tangent, I could overhear bits of the conversation between the women.

    Many observations, consistent with what has been said above, but also interesting how the tone acquires both the status posturing and emotional competition between women while still adhering to the female superiority aspect of entrenched FI perspectives, i.e. men are pigs, men are just large boys, men need to be instructed, overcome their… etc. Again, it was subtle but definitely present.

    Even from those tidbits I was able to pick up on things like the subtle male bashing – but with that saccharine endearment, that kind of condescending and marginalizing tone that is akin to tolerating the whims of a child, as opposed to the actual desires of a man (her “equal”, right?).

    I used to find it harmless until I realized how damaging that can be if say, a boy’s mom, filters everything through that lens. Or a wife, who now sees her husband and 4 y/o as occupying the same space in which her need to mother and instruct operates from a moral and emotionally superior position.

    One example. My date expressed something along the line of revealing that her and I had had a conversation about her physical appearance. Specifically, that when we’d first met – and dated a few years ago, she was quite fit, but has since gained a noticeable amount weight. She knew it as well as I.

    The origin of our conversation, which is something that I would have thought to be quite private, was more about why I was not as physical with her. I told her that I am attracted to thin, fit women. Something she was well aware of based on what she already knew about me. And that my physical initiative with her was waning not because I thought any less of her but quite simply because she was not as physically attractive to me as a bigger version.

    So my friends wife (eye roll assumed), chimes in “oh, so you’ve been through THAT too.” Inferring that what men find attractive is superficial, something we need to overcome, etc. Meanwhile, the fact that her husband’s prolonged underemployment has killed much of the tingle is totally understandable and just.

    And she is “tired of his moping” about his professional struggle. Because it is, after all, about her.

    *Said son is not allowed to “rough house”. But has a girl play friend who “doesn’t follow the house rules” and likes to play rough. But being a little girl, the wife sees this as a positive. “She will probably grow up to be a take-no-prisoners lawyer or something.” “She’s going to be awesome!” She honestly believes in this stuff. My friend is in trouble but is too far blue to help. I honestly don’t know if he even notices this stuff. It saddens me.

    Of course, no surprise that the wife is a feminist, churchian that was raised by tradcon parents that ended up with two daughters – so of course the progressive go-girl female supremacy supplanted what remained of the biblical teachings and any real tradition, culture, and values.

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