Changing Your Programming

tilting_at_windmills

Changing Your Programming

I mentioned in the first book that I am not a motivational speaker.

I’m not anyone’s savior and I would rather men be their own self-sustaining solutions to becoming the men they want and need to be – not a Rollo Tomassi success story, but their own success stories.

That said, let me also add that I would not be writing what I do if I thought that biological determinism, circumstance and social conditioning were insurmountable factors in any Man’s life. Men can accomplish great things through acts of will and determination. God willing, they can be masters of those circumstances and most importantly masters of themselves.

With a healthy understanding, respect and awareness of what influences his own condition, a Man can overcome and thrive within the context of them – but he must first be aware of, and accepting of, the conditions in which he operates and maneuvers.

You may not be able to control the actions of others, you may not be able to account for women’s Hypergamy, but you can be prepared for them, you can protect yourself from the consequences of them and you can be ready to make educated decisions of your own based upon that knowledge.

You can unplug.

You can change your programming, and you can live a better life no matter your demographic, age, past regrets or present circumstances.

These are the last words from The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine. I wrote something similar in the first book too, but I’m quoting them here because they are just as important now as they were when I was writing them then. I’m not now nor have I ever been interested in creating a cult of Rollo. I’m not interested in creating better men, I’m interested in those men making themselves better men.

Descriptions and Prescriptions

You’ll have to forgive me, I wrote this part about a year ago, but I think it’s still relevant now. In part 4 of Preventative Medicine a commenter (who, for the record is not an InCel by any stretch) asked me why I had no real prescriptive plan for men to follow with regards to ‘preventing’ or avoiding the bad decisions associated with the time line I laid out in that series. This was my response:

Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it, but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts.

From my earliest posts at SoSuave (in 2004) I’ve had men ask me for some ‘medicine’ for their condition; some personalized plan that will work for them. This sentiment is exactly what makes PUA and manosphere ‘self-help’ speakers sell DVDs and seats at seminars. They claim to have the cure. I say that’s bullshit.

I’m not in the business of cures, I’m in the business of diagnoses. Imagine a PUA guru attempting to force fit their plans to accommodate that 60 year old man’s situation. Athol Kay makes attempts to remedy married men’s (non) sex lives, but what’s his real success rate? Is it even measurable? Even Athol recognizes that his MMSL outline is just a map, a diagnosis, that men have to modify for themselves per their individual experience and demographic. You see, your cure, your plan of action isn’t what another man’s will be, or your future son’s, or anyone else reading my work. I can give you a map, but you still have to make your own trail. I’m not a savior, you are your savior

Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.

What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads a man to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for his better understanding and he creates his own success with it?

Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.

Most men already suspect they know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they actually have the keys.

My approach to Game is defined in much broader terms than simply ‘how to get girls’, and I think for the better part of the manosphere the understanding of Game has evolved beyond rote memorization of scripts and plans. It’s gotten to a stage where even the most enthusiastic proponents of PUA techniques acknowledge a need for an individualized approach to relating and interacting with women based on a broader applied understanding of feminine psychology, sociology and the particular conditions that apply to themselves as well as the women they’re interacting with.

It’s been noted before, my approach to Game / Red Pill awareness is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I’m humbled by the men who email me and let me know how something I’ve written or shined a light on for them has saved them from suicide or some particular hell they would’ve endured longer in. For the most part though I get email and comments from men who tell me that they have built better lives for themselves because a Red Pill awareness made their situations more intelligible. I don’t sell a program or a prescription because each man’s circumstance is different, his acculturation is different, his ethnicity, society, upbringing, body composition and mental faculties are all different.

But we are all men. If the Red Pill is anything it’s a consortium of men who relate their individual experiences about women, about themselves and about their circumstances in what’s now become a feminine-primary social order. As I’ve stated in the past, I’m humbled and flattered to be considered one of the pillars of Red Pill awareness, but most of what I write is the result of piecing together the related experiences of other men.

I didn’t create the Red Pill, I just describe that awareness in terms I think are intelligible. I connect dots, but much of those dots are presented to me by a collective of men who’ve had common experiences. If those dots don’t follow, if those dots would be better connected in another way, I expect the Men who make up Red Pill awareness to offer their new ideas in an open exchange, in a marketplace of ideas.

Sometimes that marketplace gets weighed down with disingenuous critics, trolls and attention seekers, but this is the price, I believe, is necessary to distill and test the strength of those ideas. Only in a crucible of open debate where all are encouraged to participate can those ideas be sussed out.

Men with questions don’t frighten me; men with no questions do.

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

From Nursing Power:

A handful of my male readers often ask why I don’t moderate comments, or that the message of Rational Male would be better served if I banned certain commenters. I’ve mentioned on several posts and threads as to why I won’t ever do that (except for blatant spamming), but in a nutshell it’s my fundamental belief that the validity of any premise or idea should be able to withstand public debate. People who aren’t confident of the strength of their assertions or ideas, or are more concerned with profiting from the branding of those weak assertions than they are in truth, are the first to cry about the harshness of their critics and kill all dissent as well as all discourse about those assertions.

That’s the primary reason I’ve never moderated; if people think I’m full of shit I’m all ears – I’m not so arrogant as to think I’ve thought of every angle about any idea I express here or on any other forum. However, the second reason I don’t censor, ban users or delete comments is that I believe it’s useful to have critics (usually women or fem-men) provide the gallery with examples of exactly the mentality or dynamic I’m describing in an essay. With a fair amount of predictability, a blue pill male or an upset woman will just as often prove my point for me and serve as a model for what I’ve described.

I never intentionally try to make rubes out of the critics I know will chime in about something, but I will sometimes leave out certain considerations I may have already thought about something, knowing it will get picked up on by a critic. I do this on occasion because the I know that the “ah hah! I got him, he forgot about X,Y, Z” moment serves as a better teaching tool and confirms for me that a critic does in fact comprehend what I’m going on about.

Last week Roosh came out against the various tribes of Game such as it is. While I understand his intent I must disagree with his methods. A couple of weeks ago I got into a bit of political discourse with regard to how the Feminine Imperative and how Hypergamy influences social dynamics. That post generated a lot of conversation, but from it I made this statement:

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

As most of my readers know I have a great deal of respect for Roosh and I still do. Nothng is going to change that. I think time will tell what direction his push for Neomasculine philosophy truly goes in. As far as what he’s describing in that “new” doctrine there’s not much I disagree with. I’ll take issue with his anti-evolution, anti-evo psych stance. I’ll take issue with his want for some as yet undefined moralism; and not because I don’t think morality or reverence to a higher power shouldn’t be part of it, but rather because it pollutes and distorts open discourse.

I’m not an atheist, anyone who’s read my commentary on Dalrock’s site knows this. That said I don’t think there is a substitute for critical inquiry, and when that is stifled, that’s when we lean over into dogma.

From Moral to the Manosphere:

Putting angel’s or devil’s wings on observations hinders real understanding.

I say that not because I don’t think morality is important in the human experience, but because our interpretations of morality and justice are substantially influenced by the animalistic sides of our natures, and often more than we’re willing to admit to ourselves. Disassociating one’s self from an emotional reaction is difficult enough, but adding layers of moralism to an issue only convolutes a better grasp of breaking it down into its constituent parts. That said, I also understand that emotion and, by degree, a sense of moralism is also characteristic of the human experience, so there needs to be an accounting of this into interpretations of issues that are as complex as the ones debated in the manosphere.

Although I’m aware that observing a process will change it, it’s my practice  not to draw moralistic conclusions in any analysis I make because it adds bias where none is necessary. The problem is that what I (and others in the manosphere) propose is so raw it offends ego-invested sensibilities in people. Offense is really not my intent, but often enough it’s the expected result of dissecting cherished beliefs that seem to contribute to the well being of an individual.

There was a time I sat in a behavioral psychology class back in college. Behaviorism appealed to me because it was very nuts & bolts, not at all like the touchy-feely humanist schools of psychology. Behavior is the only reliable proof of motive. It was cause and effect, modify variables, and watch for behavior.

At one point I began to see that women are masters of operant conditioning – they had the natural reward 99% of men want, sex. Men’s behavior could be modified just by the prospect of sex, and they could also be influenced by negative reinforcement and punishment. It was one thing to make these observation, but quite another to express them in the classroom. Many of the more intelligent minds I dealt with then would adamantly refuse to recognize the truths that operant conditioning played. After I thought about it I understood that they were likewise motivated to deny what I thought was right in front of their faces.

I had connected some uncomfortable dots; dots that had the potential of making a man less desirable for having connected them. This was really the beginning of many more uncomfortable connections I would make later.

Roosh has tried to make a case that the Red Pill community (subred) has now reached critical mass. He sees it as inbred; a community of complainers – and in some instances I can understand that. Debate can often sound like complaining. However, what I get from Roosh now is a need for answers, it seems to me he’s looking for a plan of action. He wants something prescriptive for himself and other men to follow on with. I get it.

He’s still included Red Pill truths as being an important part of his new doctrine and I’d respect him for that, if not for the wholesale disownment of the consortium that’s been the testbed for those truths for so long. As I stated above, I think Neomasculinity may have some merit, I don’t disagree with about 90% of the manifesto Roosh went to great effort to put together. What I disagree with is how he’s initiated all of this. He does no favors to himself with casual dismissals of principles he knows are deeper than he wants to give credit to – in fact most are principles he influenced personally.

As for my part, I’m going to keep doing what I do and that’s making men aware of the world that’s been pulled over their eyes. I will likely have some strong disagreement with Roosh in the future, but as I’m fond of saying unplugging men from the matrix is dirty work. We’re both in the same family, and sometimes brothers will fight, and that’s OK.

I disagree with him that the Red Pill will cease to go on. It may be called something else, but it’s been around before he or I started writing about it. The “Red Pill”, like many other terms, is an abstraction; a place holder for an idea. Don’t like the Matrix movie references? Fine, but the truth is the truth and freely expressed ideas need words to describe them.

Maybe Neomasculinity is the prescription you need, but from what I can gather so far it’s a movement based on exclusion; not inclusion, not on a free exchange of ideas. Maybe the christianized Red Pill of Donalgraeme or Dalrock is a better prescription for you. Maybe you need the inspiration of a guy like Victor Pride and a better outlook on your physique.

Or maybe all you need is a truth and an awareness to help you lift yourself up. Yes, Red Pill awareness can be very depressing in the beginning, I’ve written several posts and book chapters dedicated to helping men come to terms with that, but ultimately it will be that awareness that becomes the catalyst for changing his life.

The Red Pill isn’t one size fits all, you have to tailor your own life with what it shows you.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Seraph
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@Droidz

Let me get this straight…

Bluepillprofessor
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@Rollo: “I’m afraid to think what the outcome might be if Roosh ever developed ONEitis over a girl he believed would fulfill those Blue Pill hopes.” It hardly takes imagination. We have seen this story before. @Glenn: ” improving the lives of men by revealing who they are lied to and suppressed by a society run amok with FI informed ideas.” Summing up the Red Pill in a single clause. But why so insane about insanity? Frame, bro. You know she touches herself every time she makes you lose it. @zdroids: On the mothering instinct vs. AF/BB The mothering instinct… Read more »

Seraph
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@Droidz,

Okay, let me get this straight…

Your argument consists of a picture of two OLD women holding a fucking bird?!?

What exactly does this prove again?

Oh, that’s right, the owl does not provide provisioning for these ladies so BB is a debunked theory.

And our thinking is soft?

Oy.

“I have 2 main points.

No… you have two contentions which are sorely lacking substantiation.

kfg
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kfg
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“Alpha Fucks is a sexual strategy. Beta Bucks is a Sexual strategy.”

Sex is a baby making strategy.

Forge the Sky
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@Vulpine

Epic comment. Honestly, one of the best things I’ve read in a while – and I read a lot.

Thanks for that.

I only say so trusting you’re grounded enough to not get a big head lol.

Sun Wukong
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@zdr01dz If I may, here’s the problem with your current attempts. It’s pretty much coming across as “Hey this Red Pill stuff is cool and all, but I think one of the pillars of it (Hypergamy/AFBB) is pretty much not true at all because of edge cases X, Y, and Z. I don’t have a theory that even begins to replace it for all other cases, but I have this little thing I think covers those edge cases. Even though AFBB explains the vast majority of cases much better, I think my theory is better in all cases.” This is… Read more »

Nathan
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@Rollo: “I’m afraid to think what the outcome might be if Roosh ever developed ONEitis over a girl he believed would fulfill those Blue Pill hopes.”

This is the natural outcome. You did marry.

Pair-bonding is a natural instinct

Joe Katzman
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@vulpine… that needs to be its own post on Just Four Guys. Or somewhere. But it needs to Its Own Post. http://therationalmale.com/2015/05/25/changing-your-programming/comment-page-2/#comment-103577 @YaReally… Your posts since I left my comment are why I’m very glad that yareallyarchive.com exists, even if it has a few days’ delay. Thanks, @forgethesky, for cluing me in! Aaand @inpursuitoftruth123 figures that since everyone else is sinking 3-pointers at will today, why not? Nice riff on fatherhood, motherhood, and the pieces we’re trying to put together. http://therationalmale.com/2015/05/25/changing-your-programming/comment-page-2/#comment-103583 Just an incredible comment section today. Finally, @zdr01dz asks… Riddle me this. What does this picture of two older… Read more »

Joe
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@vulpine… that needs to be its own post on Just Four Guys. Or somewhere. But it needs to Its Own Post. http://therationalmale.com/2015/05/25/changing-your-programming/comment-page-2/#comment-103577 @YaReally… Your posts since I left my comment are why I’m very glad that yareallyarchive.com exists, even if it has a few days’ delay. Thanks, @forgethesky, for cluing me in! Aaand @inpursuitoftruth123 figures that since everyone else is sinking 3-pointers at will today, why not? Nice riff on fatherhood, motherhood, and the pieces we’re trying to put together. http://therationalmale.com/2015/05/25/changing-your-programming/comment-page-2/#comment-103583 Just an incredible comment section today. Finally, @zdr01dz asks… Riddle me this. What does this picture of two older… Read more »

kfg
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” . . . if you’re gonna come up with something less wrong . . .”

. . . he’s going to need to get out more.

Conservative Muslim Guy
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@Rollo From things Roosh has said in the past, I’d actually bet his financial situation is pretty stable. In one video (i think it was a Q/A with his forum) he did mention that he makes more per year from his books than he did at his old microbiology job (which paid 60k per year.) This was maybe a year or two back, but given that he has no children/spouse and lives a pretty minimalist lifestyle, it’s safe to assume that he’s probably saved/invested quite a bit of money. I’d like to assume that he’s smart enough to manage his… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@kfg Hahah, in my experience the guys that are least willing to buy some aspects of TRP are dudes that got married while I was busy getting my ass absolutely handed to me by the single life. I accept it because 25 fucking years of dating without a marriage in sight and repeatedly being left for the other dude leaves a guy in complete rejection of any remotely Blue Pill idea. I’ve been snubbed viciously and without mercy so many times at this point that I’m willing to completely remove humanity from women (and to be fair myself as well)… Read more »

zdr01dz
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@ Sun Wukong @ Bluepillprofessor I hear what you guy are saying but I disagree. Motherhood is key to the female experience. Alpha Fucks = Get the genes Beta Bucks = Assemble the resources Motherhood = Raise the baby For them it’s all part of the same story. As men we are instinctively focused on the first thirty minutes of the story. After that it’s not particularly interesting. That’s not true for women and this has a big impact on their behavior. My oldest son is in 8th grade and my wife is already talking about grandkids. They love that… Read more »

kfg
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@Sun Wukong:

I am one of those poor, dumb schlubs Rollo mentioned a couple of articles ago, who, attracting attractive women without any particular effort on my part, wifed one up. Even so, as a natural man going his own way, I didn’t do so entirely without care. I assured myself that she was a unicorn first.

Guess what I learned?

Horns are not decorative.

kfg
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@zdr01dz: “For them it’s all part of the same story.”

Which is precisely why your separation of them does not even parse logically.

zdr01dz
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@ Bluepillprofessor
@ Sun Wukong
However, what you miss is that Red Pill is about sexual strategy. Alpha Fucks is a sexual strategy. Beta Bucks is a Sexual strategy.

You do realize that as a male you’re focused on the sex aspect of the story and after that everything goes dark… right? That’s because you have male instincts.

It’s the reason the the man-o-sphere churns out 100 threads a day that explain how women think and behave and not a single one is focused on motherhood. Let that sink in for a minute.

kfg
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Johnycomelately
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I was wondering how long it would take for an FI approved version of the red pill to make its appearance, Roosh just demonstrated not as long as I thought. I don’t begrudge Roosh, he was obviously an easy target, reasonably intelligent, dissolutioned, socially isolated, economically impoverished, poor with the ladies and no life trajectory. You’ve got to give the Equalitarianists some credit, they know how to pick and groom their targets. His coming out of the fold was impressive, Dr Oz and Info Wars no less, impressive stage managed theatre. First prove your allegiance by accepting humiliation (Dr. Oz)… Read more »

zdr01dz
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@ kfg
I am happy to admit when I’m wrong. The man-o-sphere did churn out two sentences on baby rabies.

zdr01dz
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@ Rollo Tomassi

But I get what you’re trying to do. I know Roosh will include some contradicting diatribe about how those Red Pill guys cling to a false Alpha / Beta dichotomy too rigidly. I’ll be interested to see how Vox takes that, considering he’s written the book with regard to the various classifications of Alpha to Sigma to Omega.

You’re taking this personal, I’m not trying to do anything. I’m arguing my point because that’s what I like to do. I don’t know Roosh.

zdr01dz
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@ Rollo Tomassi The owl. I have rescued, fostered, retrained and reconditioned injured (sometimes gravely) racing greyhounds for almost 10 years. I’ve devoted countless hours and money I’m almost embarrassed to admit to on my greys. Compassion for animals is not some exclusive domain for women. Neither is it any kind of indicator of a some mothering instinct unique to women. I’m a softy. I save bugs. But we aren’t the same as women. Your argument is similar to a feminist saying that women have the same sex drive as men because they like sex too. We would laugh at… Read more »

kfg
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“The man-o-sphere did churn out two sentences on baby rabies.”

Protip: Doubling down on displays of profound ignorance is not pretty.

ctt2
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@zdr01dz Women… care for wounded soldiers. This is the second time I have seen you make this claim. Are you a servicemember or veteran? Military wives/girlfriends are usually among the best examples of hypergamy gone wild. They suck their men dry while constantly cheating and looking for the next branch to swing on, and they sure as hell don’t stick around when their man is wounded or suffering from PTSD. I doubt we’ll ever see an honest study on the subject because of how ugly the results would be, but I promise you that trouble with the women in their… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Droid “You can’t leave the Game Droid.” You know even as a I grew up and witnessed hard disturbing truths. I wouldn’t find a place to speak about it. Many of the women in my life have exihibited hypergamy while criticism from male game was always attacked. I took care of animals. I stayed around dogs… Dogs could pick up the intention of women especially my sister. Being a mother can do good with the rigth resources. But I have lived with the hypo sexual violence mothers with unfit biological needs will exhibit in order to get their needs meet.… Read more »

kfg
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As per my earlier comment on women wanting babies to be loved, not give love:

“Women crave for being loved, not for loving.” – Florence Nightingale; who did not have a very high opinion of the way women cared for wounded soldiers.

M Simon
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Glenn May 26th, 2015 at 10:46 am My take on Alex Jones is that he provides “conspiracy theory” cover for what is actually going on. Lyndon Larouche is another. His bit about “the Queen of England sells dope” was an excellent cover for who is actually doing the selling and control. Here is how you can tell a coverup artist from some one who has real information. Alex Jones is making a nice living. Catherine Austin Fitts was bankrupted. The trick is to provide just enough truth so that anyone who goes in the direction of that truth is labeled… Read more »

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ctt2 May 27th, 2015 at 12:45 am I was a Nuke ET. I saw all that first hand. Never cared to get involved. In fact during my Navy years I only got laid twice. Both times by whores I was more or less tricked into screwing so they could extract cash from me. Very unsatisfying. I generally avoided whores and military wives. I did make a friend of a bar girl in the Philippines. We corresponded for years after I got out. Never screwed her. But I did get invited to her hooch to meet her GFs. I was told… Read more »

zdr01dz
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@ Rollo Tomassi

You want to white knight for motherhood in some hope that you’ll be exempt from it.

I’m not white knighting for motherhood. I’m saying that motherhood instincts are strong and they are separate from Beta Bucks. BB is extractive, motherhood is care based. This knowledge should offer increased predictive power in regards to female behavior.

That’s all I’m saying.

ctt2
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I avoided serious relationships like the plague while I was in. Despite the blue pill conditioning of my early years I still had good instincts and was able to learn from the mistakes of others. I’m not exaggerating when I say I didn’t know even one happily married sailor.

zdr01dz
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@ Rollo Tomassi

The owl. I have rescued, fostered, retrained and reconditioned injured (sometimes gravely) racing greyhounds for almost 10 years. I’ve devoted countless hours and money I’m almost embarrassed to admit to on my greys. Compassion for animals is not some exclusive domain for women. Neither is it any kind of indicator of a some mothering instinct unique to women.

(punch to the shoulder) C’mon! You tried that weak equalist crap in your own forum? Show some pride good sir. cool

Hobbes
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While I agree with others here in doubting the usefulness of Zdroids maternalistic drive, I think it’s an interesting idea. I find it amusing to see people react to new ideas as if they were threatening. Not everyone here of course, but enough have to make me wonder. Ideas like that are a good way to explore and may, down the road, bear some fruit. Or not. For example it made me think about how the paternalistic drive plays into BB behavior. Which is something I rarely give much thought to. TRP is interesting because at first its eye opening… Read more »

Conservative Muslim Guy
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@Rollo

Rofl yes just ignore my comment. I took time to write that out.

Conservative Muslim Guy
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Also in regards to the Droid discussion, a woman’s mothering or giving instinct comes out when she is trying to lock down an alpha. Women will go to great extents to please an alpha, they will start folding your clothes, doing your dishes, etc. The extreme of this is when women will put themselves on the streets for the affections of a pimp. I’ll leave it to Rollo to decide how this piece of information fits into the puzzle.

M Simon
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Vulpine May 26th, 2015 at 6:15 pm I have advised my boys, “Don’t go for one, get two.” That strategy is very sound. I was not able to pull it off for as long as I would have liked. But it worked better than any other period in my LTR. Second best is lots of imaginary GFs if you can make them real enough in her mind. Dread game. Also good is making her taste the other on you if you can’t get other to come home and meet the LTR. “What IS that taste?” Music to my ears. And… Read more »

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ctt2
May 27th, 2015 at 1:51 am

I knew one. He and his wife understood sex. They were screwing all the time. The wife even made some attempts to get me hooked up. Nothing worked until I got out. I was RPed at 18 by my 1st GF so it was happy hunting ground when I got out.

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kfg
May 26th, 2015 at 11:42 pm

AWALT. LOL wink

70'sAntiHero
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I think that introducing women’s motherly or nutureing nature relative to their hypergamous sexual strategy of AFBB is bordering on context dropping. Perhaps an attempt to undermine the very idea. No more than a father who wants to protect and provide for his children doesn’t necessarily mean that he is willing to abandon his. (The pursuit of youth and beauty for sexual pleasure, possibly with someone who is not the mother of his children – polygamy.) The idea that the single mom who unconditionally loves her child, doesn’t get a free pass when she is fucking her latest alpha and… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
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should read – ‘rushes to her son’s side’

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/20/tess-holliday-people-maga_n_7343192.html

So… would your wife care to tell us how big this one actually is? After the “size 14” or whatever she was on Oz that your wife called bullshit on, I’d love to here her take on this landwhale fat advocates are crowing about.

Badpainter
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So does this motherhood trait hold any benefit to a man that is dealing with a woman that is not his own mother? I think at best recognition of such only serves as reminder of how tenuous his position in her list of priorities. Even if a man is high on woman’s list it may well be he is a priority for control and manipulation to ensure he serves her needs first. I would argue the same prioritization of need may also place children in the service of mother rather than a default to the genuine needs of the children.… Read more »

phantom26d
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I did not read all of the comments. I don’t know much about Game or AF/BB et cetera. But when I noticed zdr01dz ‘s comments about “motherhood” I felt obliged to post my thoughts. “Motherhood” is a completely self-centered concept. It is not about giving. It’s about making children emotionally dependent on their mothers by means of extreme smothering, domination, contradictory instructions and oftentimes violence. Women DEPEND on their children for two reasons: -They NEED love and validation from their children. -More importantly, women use emotionally dependent children as hostages / human shields who ensure that they comfortably live off… Read more »

phantom26d
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An additional response to dr01dz: Both men and women are capable of caretaking, compassion, raising children and taking care of animals. If fact, single fathers are immeasurably better at raising their kids than single mothers. There’s nothing special about “motherhood” that makes it superior to or distinct from fatherhood. “You do realize that as a male you’re focused on the sex aspect of the story and after that everything goes dark… right? That’s because you have male instincts.” As if men are shallow, vapid beasts who can’t think beyond their carnal desires. Men have more emotional and intellectual depth than… Read more »

phantom26d
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Not sure why my first comment is awaiting moderation unlike the second one. Is it because of the links I wrote?

ace
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@zdr01dz
Women… care for wounded soldiers.

Glenn
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@Vulpine & Yareally – Your contributions are so great because they are not esoteric but rather given by your real lives and experiences. I got so much out of both your comments. I think that where u r in your life when u get here is quite important. At 50, I had long internalized the ideas of romantic love and chivalry etc. meaning this was how I valued myself. But what I didn’t see initially is how badly damaged I had become. After 2 + years of work I’m only now getting how much I’d actually given up on ever… Read more »

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Reading the comments and back and forth from zdro1dz is making the red pill in the comments section sound like it’s RU486….a fucking abortion. For you newbies and lurkers lest you let his hamstering set you back in your growth: Commenter zdro1dz has given a few clues as to why he is rationalizing, hamstering, and committing the female sin of cherrypicking (and selection bias). He’s invested, both in time, money, and emotion to the blue pill. His deep desire to avoid dealing with the reality of his wife’s feral nature (and 100% willingness to stray given the right triggers, they… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
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Seems to me that discretion, in many cases, is not exercised.

Perhaps that’s why little Johnny has a gun and crack pipe instead of a briefcase.

Seraph
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“Commenter zdro1dz has given a few clues as to why he is rationalizing, hamstering, and committing the female sin of cherrypicking (and selection bias). He’s invested, both in time, money, and emotion to the blue pill.” Bing! Bing! Bing! Although one has to leave open the possibility Droidz is a woman posing. Something about the constant referral to women caring for animals seems…off. He/she also seems to LOVE anecdotal evidence for his proof, but when presented with more general information refuting his claims of inherent, natural, dominant motherhood instincts, he ignores it. Ie, Droidz never addressed the brutal, feral nature… Read more »

zdr01dz
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@ phantom26d

Both men and women are capable of caretaking, compassion, raising children and taking care of animals. If fact, single fathers are immeasurably better at raising their kids than single mothers. There’s nothing special about “motherhood” that makes it superior to or distinct from fatherhood.

Do you realize you’re arguing in favor of feminist equalism in an RM thread? Why don’t you give Anita Sarkeesian a foot rub while you’re at it?

zdr01dz
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@ Seraph
I am NOT saying that there is NOT an inherent motherhood instinct in most animals, including humans.

I’m glad to hear we are in agreement. You can use that knowledge to better predict female behavior.

phantom26d
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@zdr01dz

“Do you realize you’re arguing in favor of feminist equalism in an RM thread?”

Either that’s a lie or you need to work on your logical reasoning. Claiming that both sexes can do x, y, z doesn’t make them equal. Me and presumably all the regulars around here are well aware of biological differences of the sexes. Quit this “equalism” nonsense.

YaReally
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Two thoughts on maternal nature: 1) why do girls who are all super maternal over a 3-legged puppy walking past the local homeless shelter disgusted? Shouldn’t they be in tears falling over themselves to help all those poor men? Especially the disabled ones? Why does it only apply to certain subjects and not others if it’s built into their nature? Why do they stick around if a man loses his job, but only for a period of time and only if that man looks like he’s trying to find another job…if it’s some natural instinct to care for him, why… Read more »

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@ Seraph

I don’t think zro1dz is female, but he absolutely thinks like they want him to think. Buys into that shit lock, stock, and both smoking barrels. Probably single mom raised and or highly religious.

In this community its just the same tired pattern..

Chump No More
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@Vulpine, Re: “Widespread red-pill flaw” Dude, While I think you absolutely nailed it, I would add that this isn’t so much a flaw as it’s part of the “bargaining” process of grieving your unplugging. When I first swallowed the red-pill, it was with the expressed desire to win the sadistic ‘pick me dance’ mindfuck with my cheating ex-wife. Then an amazing thing happened… I became a better man and regained power in my life in ways I couldn’t have imagined. My self-worth, power, frame returned quickly and it was a short span of months when I said buh-bye, packed up… Read more »

Seraph
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“The pretense built up inside of me until I really was a complete fraud, to myself most of all. The plain truth is that I’ve been drowning in grief and regret and sadness, but pretending I was still that bright young shiny guy. So now I’m face to face with Glenn’s profound despair. And I have a choice, but the truth also is that I’m unmoored and adrift with it all.” Glenn, I hear you. I do. Struggling with similar stuff, and I am roughly your age. My life is not bad, but there is a WHOLE lot of shit… Read more »

Tilikum
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@Ya

I’ve seen “good wives and moms” do things…..bad, bad, bad things and then go home like nothing happened so many fucking times (over and over) it informs a thinking man that to wholly trust a female or anyone (including dear old mom) isn’t just foolish but could mean your health or safety.

Seraph
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“I’m glad to hear we are in agreement. You can use that knowledge to better predict female behavior.”

(sigh)

Alright.

(pats Droidz on head)

Run along now.

Seraph
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@Tilikum,

“I don’t think zro1dz is female, but he absolutely thinks like they want him to think. Buys into that shit lock, stock, and both smoking barrels. Probably single mom raised and or highly religious.”

Yeah, certainly possible. Like I said, it may be my altered perspective that can no longer understand thinking like that as a male.

Chump No More
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@YaReally “……..and men repeat this INSANE PATTERN. Every fucking DAY. You, reading this, probably know or have been or ARE this exact fucking guy.” I was exactly that guy… twice! Bro, I was living Einstein’s definition of insanity. Between the two, I lost the weight, got in shape, got my alpha mojo back and then I rinsed and repeated. It would be very easy to get bitter with women and angry at myself for being a gullible pussy, but that would be the easy way out. Now that I’m red-pilled and ‘get it’, I look back at it all as… Read more »

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@zdroids I actually see the logic in your “motherhood” angle. It does have some weight, but, there is a condition. I think you may have something there, listing “motherhood” after AF, and after BB. Looking back at the pictures you posted as illustration, let’s look at “gamer gurl flashing boobs for donations”. You’ll notice, she’s “doable”. That is, young, decent looking, passes most guys’ boner test. Then look at the “rescue” “mothering” pictures. See the difference? The first picture consists of a pre-wall, likely never pregnant chick. AF/BB would be HER default mode. The second “mother” pictures are post-wall, and… Read more »

Novaseeker
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You can use that knowledge to better predict female behavior. zDroidz — Except that it doesn’t, at least not in ways that aren’t already subsumed by the red pill ideas. Women have a motherhood instinct — noone denies this. In order to become a mother and raise offspring successfully, however, a woman needs genes and resources — AF and BB. This is why, as Rollo has aptly described, women are attracted to both AF and BB in different ways, such that the attraction to AF is visceral/sexual/arousal, while the attraction to BB is comfort/security. A woman seeks both in order… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
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AFBB is an irreducible. It stands alone.

To add motherhood as anything but a derivative deludes or destroys meaning and definition.

zdr01dz
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@ Vulpine
Looking back at the pictures you posted as illustration, let’s look at “gamer gurl flashing boobs for donations”. You’ll notice, she’s “doable”. That is, young, decent looking, passes most guys’ boner test.

You’re right the young skank was in theory doable while the old women were dried up. But it wouldn’t necessarily have to be that way. The motherhood instinct shows up at a very early age and lasts a lifetime.

http://i.imgur.com/NzjdW5C.jpg

Simply put, pre-motherhood women can get away with being a spitter. Post-motherhood women need to swallow, then get up and fix a sandwich.
That is a 100% accurate observation.

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@ 70’sAntiHero

AFBB is an irreducible. It stands alone.

The reason that makes sense to men is because it’s how we instinctively view the world. You shoot your load and your strongest instincts go dark. Women aren’t that way.

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@ zdr01dz

Momentarily, perhaps . . . . however, I don’t cash in my mutual fund as a result.

It make sense to he steely eyed female guidance counselor that has to deal with the mom with seven kids from four dads. When she tells me,”why doesn’t she keep her legs closed?”

Charlotte Allen
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Insanity is dead-on right. I want to link to her blog! MGTOW types are the exact mirror images of feminists. As with feminists, the five main traits of MGTOWs are: 1. Whining 2. Self-proclaimed perpetual victim status 3. Whining 3. A belief that the sexes are identical–except that one sex gets unfair preferences and privileges from society 5. Whining I can’t help it that you guys couldn’t exercise enough judgment and common sense to marry a virtuous and loyal woman, so you got burned (or think you got burned) in divorce court. How about trying to learn from your mistakes… Read more »

oxmo
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Off topic but relevant to our subjects of discussions, rollo and others, I invite you to read this thread when you have the time and make a parallel
whith rollo’s Saving the best article
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/530564-am-i-getting-best-him

oxmo
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It’s so fucking funny. Quote from one of the OP’s posts: «I guess I am just feeling kind of cheated. I mean we both have past lovers and we normally don’t have problems with that, even discussing them (without detail of course). However I give my boyfriend my all, I don’t hold back on him. Now after all this time I find out I am not getting everything he has to offer and never will. I can see him hiding his wealth for the first few months or a year, however it has been three years now. Even talking with… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Vulpine See, that’s the sort of thing I’m talking about. Upthread I asserted that women do, in fact, have some sort of nurturing impulse but that it only emerges in the correct circumstances – generally when they have something to nurture after they feel reasonably content that AF/BB is taken care of. I think you detailed the circumstances it emerges in, and the motivations behind it, far more thoroughly and accurately. Hat tip. It’s a strategy used when feral, cost-free AF and (perceived) limitless options for BB dry up and she’s forced to consolidate on what she still can. And,… Read more »

Charlotte Allen
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@Rollo Tomassi

What’s HUS?

I’m not indignant, merely observant. I’m happily married and completely devoted to an alpha-natural guy whom I treat as the head of our household–because he is.

70'sAntiHero
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@ charlette allen

I found your article, “The New Dating Game”, a few years back to be elucidating and extremely helpful! Thanks!

It shook my world.

You’re the reason why I am here. lol

Have you written more regarding gender dynamics? Where are you being published?

regards

Vulpine
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@zdroids No, “motherhood” nurturing does not appear at a young age. Young people modeling what they see on TV appears at a young age. Mothers buying kids dolls is what you see at a young age. You don’t see nurturing, you see pretending, and emulation. Don’t confuse empathy for the helpless as “nurturing”, either. nur’ture: 1. To feed; to nourish 2. To educate; to bring or train up What the fuck is some little girl going to mold a doll into? What is a little girl going to feed that fucking plastic and cloth mass that will prompt it to… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Novaseeker – “With the advent of this de-coupling, the attractions of women which inform their sexuality similarly became decoupled from the underlying reproductive basis (motherhood), for many women, at least for much of their lives until a certain time comes along when the motherhood instinct kicks into high gear (most typically observed in women in their mid 30s and later). Prior to that time, most women are manifestly *not* prioritizing motherhood, but are in fact consciously placing it on the back burner so that they can focus on other things (career, travel, riding the CC)[…..]So in reality the “actualized” motherhood… Read more »

Seraph
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“The reason that makes sense to men is because it’s how we instinctively view the world. You shoot your load and your strongest instincts go dark.” “Honey?” “Yes, David.” “There are a kids running around our yard…” Claire walked into the dining room, joining him as he looked out the window. “Dave…we’ve been over this. They’re your children.” Dave turned to her, perplexed. “I’m not following you.” Claire sighed. “Your kids, David. Those are your kids. Our kids. Alicia and Thomas.” David squinted at her. “When you say ours…” “We have children, David. TWO!” David seemed to contemplate it as… Read more »

Charlotte Allen
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@70sAntiHero: I’m flattered to have a fan! I haven’t written anything as specifically about male-female dynamics as “The Dating Game,” although I’ve reviewed books off and on that treat them. I did a recent big piece on the transgender phenomenon for the Weekly Standard that’s kind of about male-female dynamics (or at least male-female differences)–and I’m working on a story about the war against fraternities (a takeoff from the UVA rape hoax) that’s definitely about sex differences. During 2014 and a bit of 2015 I was blogging regularly for the Los Angeles Times–until my editor left and the blog petered… Read more »

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@sun
Im glad you mentioned losing the concept of humanity. Thats what gets to me. Whats really left post-humanity? I just want to lay around like a lion now and stay warm.

On the topic of motherhood, babies release phermones from the top of their head for multiple reasons. So when women are holding other peoples babies it triggers “baby rabies” in the form of withdrawl from the phermones.

kfg
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“I’m perpetually fascinated by . . . the current narrative that sex differences don’t really exist.”

Men want women, but they don’t need them.
Women don’t want men, but they need them.

And there’s your difference between MGTOW and feminism.

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Thanks. I’ll keep my eye out.

Rollo is the gold standard for encouraging men to use thier mind in a positive, enlightened and knowable pursuit. To recognize women for their true nature in the context of the modern day fem centric culture and not to hate them for it.

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sorry @ charlotte allen

kobayashii1681
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@zdroidz – “Riddle me this. What does this picture of two older women taking care of an orphaned owl have to do with Beta Bucks? Nothing.”

It also has nothing to do with motherhood…

ctt2
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@Seraph

Thanks for the laugh, that dialogue was great.

Vulpine
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@Forge the Sky Mai Frau and I have recently had a conversation regarding “gender roles that are unhealthily shunned” where motherhood is “a woman’s place”, despite feminists wanting to crank up their testosterone, swinging hammers in a man’s realm like dear old Rosie the Ironworker, getting “roid rage” from the testosterone that they should avoid increasing, and continuing to crank up their testosterone levels by the competition in school, the single scene, and the workplace… for men’s roles. There is no competition or testosterone-promoting situations in motherhood. I’ve seen women completely contented and happy in their motherhood role, completely 180º… Read more »

Conservative Muslim Guy
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@ Rollo Ah okay i think i get what you’re getting at. He didn’t have to come out and be all “i’m not longer part of the Red Pill” and “the Red Pill is wrong.” He could have just come out and said “I’m starting a political wing of the Red Pill movement. I’m calling it neomasculinity because imo that’s a nicer name and I slightly differ on tenants x y and z. Who wants to join me?” Instead he’s making neomasculinity to be something different than tRP, which, let’s be frank, it’s not. Also he’s trashing all of the… Read more »

Conservative Muslim Guy
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@ Rollo Also I already have a way to resolve the concerns Roosh is going to bring up about evo psych. The short answer is this; evo psych describes human instinct not human behaviour. The reason is because human beings have animal instincts, but also a soul with the ability to choose and that pulls in the opposite direction (or if you’re an atheist, an inexplicable higher cognitive function.) For this reason, evo-psych can tell us that, for example, all men have a polygamous instinct; most men, however, choose not to exercise said instinct. Even out of the ones for… Read more »

Conservative Muslim Guy
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Correction: this, however, is only a partial explanation for why some choose to forgoe the social shaming in favour of acting out their polygamous instinct***

MikePhil
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@70’sAntiHero

Your 12:19pm comment today is absolute gold.You can’t get angry at someone when you know their motivations, conscious or otherwise.

Jeremy
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@Charlotte Allen Insanity is dead-on right. I want to link to her blog! lol 1. Whining MGTOW is *mostly* a phase of acceptance that men go through. Whining is an acceptable behavior when moving through stages of grief. 2. Self-proclaimed perpetual victim status This is entirely untrue. MGTOW men claim no victimhood save what society observably foists on them. In response they separate themselves as much as they can from traditional societal institutions. Claiming perpetual victim status would be modifying the system such that it recognizes you or your kind as victims. MGTOW doesn’t do that, it simply removes the… Read more »

Charlotte Allen
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@Rollo Tomassi: Hi, Rollo! Oh–Hooking Up Smart! I used to read it a lot because she had really good advice for young women on the pitfalls of promiscuity and how to find and treat a man. Then the blog kind of fell apart, around the time she dropped the banner with Bellini’s “Feast of the Gods”–which was so apt for today’s dating dynamic. I lost interest. Re Glenn and some of the other commenters on this site: They are unusually bitter. The problem is that both men and women are driven by reproductive urges that dictate very different approaches to… Read more »

hobbes101
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@Vulpine- great post. You nailed it and your observations are spot on. Thanks for that.
@Seraph- I made the mistake of reading that post while at work and now patients are looking at me laughing like a madman.

Charlotte Allen
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@kfg

Men don’t “need” women in the sense that they can create and build and organize all the things in the world (as they do now), and then come home to…???

Women don’t “want” men in the sense that they write stuff like “a fish needs a bicycle” on T-shirts.

Charlotte Allen
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@Jeremy:

“MGTOW men claim no victimhood save what society observably foists on them.”

I rest my case.

Vulpine
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Men trying to be men, and women trying to be men, are pretty far from mirror opposites.

Jeremy
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@70’sAntiHero AFBB is an irreducible. It stands alone. To add motherhood as anything but a derivative deludes or destroys meaning and definition. I haven’t seen anything from Droid that would convince me that there is some third instinct that can override DNA replication or survival instincts. That said, it is perhaps overly ambitious to claim that AFBB is not reducible or that Droid has no point worth thinking about. What Droid is saying doesn’t work for me because DNA (us, humans), only exists to self-replicate. That’s what DNA has been doing for billions of years. That is its only goal.… Read more »

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@Charlotte Allen

I rest my case.

I guess it was asking too much to expect intelligent dialogue with queens of the FI.

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