Changing Your Programming

tilting_at_windmills

Changing Your Programming

I mentioned in the first book that I am not a motivational speaker.

I’m not anyone’s savior and I would rather men be their own self-sustaining solutions to becoming the men they want and need to be – not a Rollo Tomassi success story, but their own success stories.

That said, let me also add that I would not be writing what I do if I thought that biological determinism, circumstance and social conditioning were insurmountable factors in any Man’s life. Men can accomplish great things through acts of will and determination. God willing, they can be masters of those circumstances and most importantly masters of themselves.

With a healthy understanding, respect and awareness of what influences his own condition, a Man can overcome and thrive within the context of them – but he must first be aware of, and accepting of, the conditions in which he operates and maneuvers.

You may not be able to control the actions of others, you may not be able to account for women’s Hypergamy, but you can be prepared for them, you can protect yourself from the consequences of them and you can be ready to make educated decisions of your own based upon that knowledge.

You can unplug.

You can change your programming, and you can live a better life no matter your demographic, age, past regrets or present circumstances.

These are the last words from The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine. I wrote something similar in the first book too, but I’m quoting them here because they are just as important now as they were when I was writing them then. I’m not now nor have I ever been interested in creating a cult of Rollo. I’m not interested in creating better men, I’m interested in those men making themselves better men.

Descriptions and Prescriptions

You’ll have to forgive me, I wrote this part about a year ago, but I think it’s still relevant now. In part 4 of Preventative Medicine a commenter (who, for the record is not an InCel by any stretch) asked me why I had no real prescriptive plan for men to follow with regards to ‘preventing’ or avoiding the bad decisions associated with the time line I laid out in that series. This was my response:

Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it, but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts.

From my earliest posts at SoSuave (in 2004) I’ve had men ask me for some ‘medicine’ for their condition; some personalized plan that will work for them. This sentiment is exactly what makes PUA and manosphere ‘self-help’ speakers sell DVDs and seats at seminars. They claim to have the cure. I say that’s bullshit.

I’m not in the business of cures, I’m in the business of diagnoses. Imagine a PUA guru attempting to force fit their plans to accommodate that 60 year old man’s situation. Athol Kay makes attempts to remedy married men’s (non) sex lives, but what’s his real success rate? Is it even measurable? Even Athol recognizes that his MMSL outline is just a map, a diagnosis, that men have to modify for themselves per their individual experience and demographic. You see, your cure, your plan of action isn’t what another man’s will be, or your future son’s, or anyone else reading my work. I can give you a map, but you still have to make your own trail. I’m not a savior, you are your savior

Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.

What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads a man to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for his better understanding and he creates his own success with it?

Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.

Most men already suspect they know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they actually have the keys.

My approach to Game is defined in much broader terms than simply ‘how to get girls’, and I think for the better part of the manosphere the understanding of Game has evolved beyond rote memorization of scripts and plans. It’s gotten to a stage where even the most enthusiastic proponents of PUA techniques acknowledge a need for an individualized approach to relating and interacting with women based on a broader applied understanding of feminine psychology, sociology and the particular conditions that apply to themselves as well as the women they’re interacting with.

It’s been noted before, my approach to Game / Red Pill awareness is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I’m humbled by the men who email me and let me know how something I’ve written or shined a light on for them has saved them from suicide or some particular hell they would’ve endured longer in. For the most part though I get email and comments from men who tell me that they have built better lives for themselves because a Red Pill awareness made their situations more intelligible. I don’t sell a program or a prescription because each man’s circumstance is different, his acculturation is different, his ethnicity, society, upbringing, body composition and mental faculties are all different.

But we are all men. If the Red Pill is anything it’s a consortium of men who relate their individual experiences about women, about themselves and about their circumstances in what’s now become a feminine-primary social order. As I’ve stated in the past, I’m humbled and flattered to be considered one of the pillars of Red Pill awareness, but most of what I write is the result of piecing together the related experiences of other men.

I didn’t create the Red Pill, I just describe that awareness in terms I think are intelligible. I connect dots, but much of those dots are presented to me by a collective of men who’ve had common experiences. If those dots don’t follow, if those dots would be better connected in another way, I expect the Men who make up Red Pill awareness to offer their new ideas in an open exchange, in a marketplace of ideas.

Sometimes that marketplace gets weighed down with disingenuous critics, trolls and attention seekers, but this is the price, I believe, is necessary to distill and test the strength of those ideas. Only in a crucible of open debate where all are encouraged to participate can those ideas be sussed out.

Men with questions don’t frighten me; men with no questions do.

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

From Nursing Power:

A handful of my male readers often ask why I don’t moderate comments, or that the message of Rational Male would be better served if I banned certain commenters. I’ve mentioned on several posts and threads as to why I won’t ever do that (except for blatant spamming), but in a nutshell it’s my fundamental belief that the validity of any premise or idea should be able to withstand public debate. People who aren’t confident of the strength of their assertions or ideas, or are more concerned with profiting from the branding of those weak assertions than they are in truth, are the first to cry about the harshness of their critics and kill all dissent as well as all discourse about those assertions.

That’s the primary reason I’ve never moderated; if people think I’m full of shit I’m all ears – I’m not so arrogant as to think I’ve thought of every angle about any idea I express here or on any other forum. However, the second reason I don’t censor, ban users or delete comments is that I believe it’s useful to have critics (usually women or fem-men) provide the gallery with examples of exactly the mentality or dynamic I’m describing in an essay. With a fair amount of predictability, a blue pill male or an upset woman will just as often prove my point for me and serve as a model for what I’ve described.

I never intentionally try to make rubes out of the critics I know will chime in about something, but I will sometimes leave out certain considerations I may have already thought about something, knowing it will get picked up on by a critic. I do this on occasion because the I know that the “ah hah! I got him, he forgot about X,Y, Z” moment serves as a better teaching tool and confirms for me that a critic does in fact comprehend what I’m going on about.

Last week Roosh came out against the various tribes of Game such as it is. While I understand his intent I must disagree with his methods. A couple of weeks ago I got into a bit of political discourse with regard to how the Feminine Imperative and how Hypergamy influences social dynamics. That post generated a lot of conversation, but from it I made this statement:

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

As most of my readers know I have a great deal of respect for Roosh and I still do. Nothng is going to change that. I think time will tell what direction his push for Neomasculine philosophy truly goes in. As far as what he’s describing in that “new” doctrine there’s not much I disagree with. I’ll take issue with his anti-evolution, anti-evo psych stance. I’ll take issue with his want for some as yet undefined moralism; and not because I don’t think morality or reverence to a higher power shouldn’t be part of it, but rather because it pollutes and distorts open discourse.

I’m not an atheist, anyone who’s read my commentary on Dalrock’s site knows this. That said I don’t think there is a substitute for critical inquiry, and when that is stifled, that’s when we lean over into dogma.

From Moral to the Manosphere:

Putting angel’s or devil’s wings on observations hinders real understanding.

I say that not because I don’t think morality is important in the human experience, but because our interpretations of morality and justice are substantially influenced by the animalistic sides of our natures, and often more than we’re willing to admit to ourselves. Disassociating one’s self from an emotional reaction is difficult enough, but adding layers of moralism to an issue only convolutes a better grasp of breaking it down into its constituent parts. That said, I also understand that emotion and, by degree, a sense of moralism is also characteristic of the human experience, so there needs to be an accounting of this into interpretations of issues that are as complex as the ones debated in the manosphere.

Although I’m aware that observing a process will change it, it’s my practice  not to draw moralistic conclusions in any analysis I make because it adds bias where none is necessary. The problem is that what I (and others in the manosphere) propose is so raw it offends ego-invested sensibilities in people. Offense is really not my intent, but often enough it’s the expected result of dissecting cherished beliefs that seem to contribute to the well being of an individual.

There was a time I sat in a behavioral psychology class back in college. Behaviorism appealed to me because it was very nuts & bolts, not at all like the touchy-feely humanist schools of psychology. Behavior is the only reliable proof of motive. It was cause and effect, modify variables, and watch for behavior.

At one point I began to see that women are masters of operant conditioning – they had the natural reward 99% of men want, sex. Men’s behavior could be modified just by the prospect of sex, and they could also be influenced by negative reinforcement and punishment. It was one thing to make these observation, but quite another to express them in the classroom. Many of the more intelligent minds I dealt with then would adamantly refuse to recognize the truths that operant conditioning played. After I thought about it I understood that they were likewise motivated to deny what I thought was right in front of their faces.

I had connected some uncomfortable dots; dots that had the potential of making a man less desirable for having connected them. This was really the beginning of many more uncomfortable connections I would make later.

Roosh has tried to make a case that the Red Pill community (subred) has now reached critical mass. He sees it as inbred; a community of complainers – and in some instances I can understand that. Debate can often sound like complaining. However, what I get from Roosh now is a need for answers, it seems to me he’s looking for a plan of action. He wants something prescriptive for himself and other men to follow on with. I get it.

He’s still included Red Pill truths as being an important part of his new doctrine and I’d respect him for that, if not for the wholesale disownment of the consortium that’s been the testbed for those truths for so long. As I stated above, I think Neomasculinity may have some merit, I don’t disagree with about 90% of the manifesto Roosh went to great effort to put together. What I disagree with is how he’s initiated all of this. He does no favors to himself with casual dismissals of principles he knows are deeper than he wants to give credit to – in fact most are principles he influenced personally.

As for my part, I’m going to keep doing what I do and that’s making men aware of the world that’s been pulled over their eyes. I will likely have some strong disagreement with Roosh in the future, but as I’m fond of saying unplugging men from the matrix is dirty work. We’re both in the same family, and sometimes brothers will fight, and that’s OK.

I disagree with him that the Red Pill will cease to go on. It may be called something else, but it’s been around before he or I started writing about it. The “Red Pill”, like many other terms, is an abstraction; a place holder for an idea. Don’t like the Matrix movie references? Fine, but the truth is the truth and freely expressed ideas need words to describe them.

Maybe Neomasculinity is the prescription you need, but from what I can gather so far it’s a movement based on exclusion; not inclusion, not on a free exchange of ideas. Maybe the christianized Red Pill of Donalgraeme or Dalrock is a better prescription for you. Maybe you need the inspiration of a guy like Victor Pride and a better outlook on your physique.

Or maybe all you need is a truth and an awareness to help you lift yourself up. Yes, Red Pill awareness can be very depressing in the beginning, I’ve written several posts and book chapters dedicated to helping men come to terms with that, but ultimately it will be that awareness that becomes the catalyst for changing his life.

The Red Pill isn’t one size fits all, you have to tailor your own life with what it shows you.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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zdr01dz
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@ kfg
As a young man I found it instructive to watch a mother eat her newborn babies.
That may explain your worldview.

When my best friend’s mom died I went to her funeral and I couldn’t help but shed some tears.

I think we come from different worlds.

kfg
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“I don’t see very much AF . . . they aren’t in my social circle.”

Yes, that’s the way it works.

zdr01dz
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Alpha Fucks = sex focus (break even)
Beta Bucks = resource focus (massive ROI)
Motherhood Instinct = care focus (negative ROI)

Obviously this is debatable but in my world Motherhood appears to win. Beta Bucks comes in second and Alpha a distant last place.

If I lived on a college campus it’s pretty obvious that Alpha would be the winner by a mile.

In a world without a strong Motherhood force Alpha should be pronounced. When AF/BB is isolated that’s what it predicts. But I don’t see strong majorities of women flocking to Ashley Madison.

Eduardo Corrochio
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Consider yourself lucky. Or consider that this comment will pass unnoticed in the annals of time. I am heretofore know as Eduardo Corrochio. I have watched. I have listened. As I look at the picture it seems appropriate. I am jousting at windmills. But I announce my arrival into the discussion. More to follow.

RichardP
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For Glenn:

http://holyjoe.org/poetry/carruth.htm

From childhood to youth’s but a span,
And the years of our life are soon sped;
But the youth is no longer a youth, but a man,
When the first of his dreams is dead.

’Tis a cup of wormwood and gall,
When the doom of a great man is said;
And the best of a man is under a pall
When the best of his dreams is dead.

The rest of the poem is at the link.

M Simon
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acts of will

Do what thou wilt IS the whole of the Law.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.

M Simon
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The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

Not entirely. The smaller government movement (libertarianism if you will) is getting considerable impetus from the FI using government to go after men.

I had some social conservatives visit me the other day and it was amazing the amount of libertarianism that leaked out in their conversation. And these were females.

==========

Bad government is despised. Good government is loved. The best government is unnoticed.

lh
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I find Roosh inspiring and worth reading. But none the less I always thought he didn’t take the RedPill deep enough. He uses game to get his needs fulfilled, but his needs are beta. Game won’t get your beta-needs really fulfilled. Taking the RedPill deep enough let’s you get rid of those needs by cleansing you from unrealistic and idealistic expectations. Giving up on what you cannot get anyway will set you free. Rooshs issue is of course how he made women (or chasing them) his life-goal and business. He would need other goals, more fulfilling goals. But Roosh still… Read more »

ace
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I think Roosh will be 36 years of age soon (or already just turned 36) which corresponds perfectly with Rollo’s SMV chart.

comment image

The guy obviously is trying to rationalize settling down and maintain credibility within the manosphere (his customers). The manosphere is his bread and butter (Rollo is financially independ from the manosphere) which only forces me to look at Roosh with a little more critically.

Bromeo
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@zdro1dz

I think your just focusing on different areas of af/bb, just like you said, in college it would be all about af and near the wall for women’s smv it would be more bb, your thinking more in terms of the bb time frame but in the end its all just a subset of af/bb.

thedeclineandfall
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Rollo is correct Droid. If you look at global fertility rates, all first world nations are all on the decline. Why? Simply because children are a cost/benefit calculation. In more primitive agrarian societies where children are a work resource, people have more children. In technical advanced societies people have less children because they cost enormous sums to raise to adulthood. The demographic data proves Rollo’s point; the motherhood instinct is not as strong as you are making it out to be. Women make decisions based on self-interest; the decrease in first world fertility across the board shows there is a… Read more »

rbrtolson
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There’s an important distinction to be made between the search for truth and the search for meaning. These two have interplay, but they are by no means the same.

ace
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zdr01dz May 26th, 2015 at 12:00 am “Despite these costs most women feel a strong desire to have children. The motherhood instinct pops up in many ways. Women rescue homeless kittens and care for wounded soldiers. Most of the time these secondary behaviors driven by the motherhood instinct offer no return on investment.” Why do women typically have less children the more they can afford them? More wealth (abundant monetary en material resources) generally = less procreation. It’s typically the poor that are having the children the rich are barely above replacement. We should ask ourselves “why do women have… Read more »

Ang Aamer
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Rollo, I really believe that saying you don’t advocate a plan or schema is a bit of a cop out. The mere introduction of the Value Curves that peak at different ages for Women and Men IS advocating a schema. If you look at the curves objectively, you see the following obvious conclusions. 1 – A man has no business getting serious with a woman before peaking his value around 30. Implication – All this teen – 20s male hand wringing about getting female attention is a waste of time… get your life in ORDER then get a mate around… Read more »

Glenn
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@RichardP – Great poem, thanks for this.

New Yorker
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The Red Pill can show a man that he needs to build his own world that corresponds to his deepest desires. Only then, will he never feel alone and his life will have meaning. That differs sharply for each one. Roosh seems to have neglected to do that. I suspect that most PUAs will run into the same issue.

Glenn
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@Zdroidz – Wow, this motherhood stuff is ridiculous. A few bits of evidence would seem to confound your views. Also, a bit of logic, so here goes: 1. Why do women most often initiate divorce in families with young children? Stats show that in such cases, the divorce is initiated by women about 80% of the time. How does this prioritization of motherhood factor in while booting out the father? It’s well known that children don’t develop as well without their bio-Dad in the home, so how does this factor into the world you see? 2. Declining birth rates –… Read more »

zdr01dz
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Photo 1: Beta Bucks instinct. A skank gamer girl flashes skin to illicit “donations” from chumps. Beta bucks behaviors are entirely extractive and offer a high return on investment.
http://i.imgur.com/PcPAAzX.jpg

Photo 2: Motherhood instinct. An older woman volunteers at a shelter and cares for sick and injured animals. She receives nothing for her effort and her ROI is entirely negative. This behavior is rooted in selfless giving and care.
http://i.imgur.com/EIAFGaE.jpg

This illustrates how Motherhood and BB are distinct instincts that work in opposite directions.

Glenn
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@Ang Gamer – Your plan is spot on but you miss Rollo’s distinction. Yes, common themes fall out of his analyses and these common themes lead to logical choices about how a man should proceed in life. But he’s saying something a bit subtler about how he sees his role in all of this. He’s being descriptive, not prescriptive. This means he’s respecting every man’s agency here to decide what and how to instrumentalize these ideas in how he goes about his life. He’s actually honoring the “leader” inside of all men, the part of them that is a leader… Read more »

Jeremy
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Motherhood may be a naturally occuring instinct in women, but it’s a 2nd or 3rd order effect whereas the AF/BB is 1st order. Only when a woman has both her AF and BB side satisfied will any mothering instinct be visible as a personality trait. Survival and DNA replication come first, mothering is a 3rd tier, less-important instinct.

zdr01dz
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Some of you folks are in luck because I have to work in the field all day. My work today is mindless so I’ll have plenty of time to ponder this, hehe.

Tilikum
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@droids Your hamster is on crack homie. You completely the ignore the basics of human choice politics and can’t think abstractly enough to avoid time boxing your observations. It’s OK dude, let it go. I cant do quantum mechanics in my head either, few can. @insanitybytes You are correct that you have lived in a time of “peak woman”. That time is rapidly coming to a close. Adapt and make damn sure you got the best man you can attract, cause as it was until a century ago and coming very, very soon, a woman without a man was dead.… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Tilikum

Actually, women without husbands survived just fine in past centuries. Typically the safest place for them was inside the gates of walled cities, oftentimes in brothels or working as cooks, cleaners, etc.. for wealthier people.

Men were typically given a much simpler choice, swear allegiance to a lord/king/ruler, work his lands to gain him profit, and serve in his armies when called; or face execution for treason.

Yes, the FI runs deep, and is quite old. The myth of a patriarchal “Easy street” for men is just that, a myth sold to women to make them fear men.

Glenn
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@Rollo – While this is a great piece, again you seem to be at pains to separate the RP from morality and politics when in many ways it’s a commentary on both. Even worse, the RP is an innately moral analyses that seeks to punch through the FI inspired memes which have rapidly come to the fore in our society over the past 50 years. Ooops, there goes that memeplex thing I’ve been trying to get you guys to think about for a year plus, that the left has become expert at manipulating and controlling – why do you think… Read more »

Nathan
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” I’m a pro-life atheist”

Contradiction in terms

Jeremy
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@Glenn …separate the RP from morality and politics when in many ways it’s a commentary on both. Even worse, the RP is an innately moral analyses that seeks to punch through the FI inspired memes which have rapidly come to the fore in our society over the past 50 years. Glenn, with respect, this is simply incorrect. “Red Pill” is not an innately moral analysis. It is an honest analysis, which in our modern times of daily bathing in lies feels significantly more “moral” than our daily activities. However, this does not make “Red Pill” moral in any sense of… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Insanity @Glenn – “Because you validate and legitimize what every man hating feminist has ever said about you, because you make me ashamed to say I love men, and because your hatred and ugliness makes the world a lousy place to live.
I could care less what you say about women. It’s what you insist upon saying about your own idiotic selves that depresses the hell out of me.”

Lol, yeah Glenn. Man up and stop complaining already, you aren’t living up to insanity’s standards.

Jeremy
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@Forge

It is remarkable how the first instinct in women is to accuse men of not living up to standards. I don’t even think they realize how often they do it, I think it falls in with their shit-test instinct. Women were literally put on this earth as genetically-designed nags.

Water Cannon Boy
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@zdroiod
What’s her name gets access like a hooker, not like any frumpy random woman who wouldn’t get access.
There’s a saying that hookers get paid not for the sex but to go away and not cause trouble. That’s her way in. She’s known or knows not to cause trouble. Version of preselection.
And her self described naive 18 yr olds may be athletes, but she’s not getting top tier. Alpha isn’t a demographic, as has been said around here before. Maybe she did at some point, but highly doubt now, knowing how things go.

Forge the Sky
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@Jeremy

The alpha filter is always on. Women never stop scanning the horizon for AF, regardless of how actionable a prospect is. Just like most men can’t help but white knight, ha.

Forge the Sky
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@Eduardo Corrochio

Hey Ed, if you have something to say get off your high horse and say it. No one cares about the fantasy novel playing in your head.

Do you even LARP bro?

d.t.
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@Jack, Roosh has come to a point where it’s put up or shut up time. The answers he’s looking for are evident in his most recent post about questioning whether women add to a man’s quality of life. He’s only rehashing what I wrote about in Empathy, but it’s plainly obvious to me that he wants that empathy in spite of the women who wont live up to it for him. That to me says he’s looking for answers. He’s just coming to terms with what I wrote about women’s opportunistic vs men’s idealistic concepts of love and it’s getting… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@zdr01dz I’m not sure I agree with you but it’s great you don’t just toe the line. My first impression is that the motherhood instinct is a real and powerful thing, but that it’s state-dependant. Kind of like how a woman’s AF impulse doesn’t really kick in until she runs into a hypergamously worthy man. Being in that mothering state generally requires an instinctive sense that AF and BB are taken care of – i.e, her children are genetically valuable, and she has the resources to take care of them in addition to herself. When this stops being true she… Read more »

Jeremy
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The red pill is quite bitter, but how bad is its after-taste? I haven’t found it to be so bitter in the long run, or perhaps my own viewpoint has simply shifted to fully appreciate sweetness that I did not appreciate so much before. You can’t appreciate dessert if you’re eating sweets all the time, you have to eat the bitter foods if you ever expect to have a worthy palate. There is a degree of nihilism that comes and goes in the digestion of facts. I won’t deny that, because it’s fact and there are simply too many comments… Read more »

MikePhil
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Motherhood discussion aside, I think the real take-away from this post is the idea that YOU need to find YOUR path to realize the better YOU. While the instructions presented here over the course of several years helps you understand what’s at stake and gives you an idea of what’s possible, they are not the plan. They’re tools you can use in the way that seems best, but they are just tools for enlightenment, not the enlightenment themselves. Once you start finding your way, you realize how specific and tailored your progression is. The path you’re blazing to a better… Read more »

Thelien
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“If the world would be a place where women cannot go out on the streets alone without falling victim to violence, the men could get a lot more from them without any need for clowning.”

There’s plenty of such places in the world. Men escape them massively to do shitty migrant jobs in safer, richer countries. And the only woman they can get at home is who their parents arrange a marriage to. Before that, they have to have sex with donkeys.

kobayashii1681
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” but most of what I write is the result of piecing together the related experiences of other men.” A service we are eternally grateful for RT….really. I’ve gotten 4 of my boys on TRM and red pill thought, to be honest it has made many things clear about being a man in an increasingly gynocentric environment, helping to reclaim manhood, and setting us on a path where we have/develop our own tools to control our circumstances, especially, our relationships with women. You are definitely a pillar…and TRM is a place….almost like the room in the Matrix when Neo first… Read more »

Kazaul
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It’s been over a year since I started reading Rational Male and it’s posts like these that keep me coming back. This mentality is what let me soak in RP rather than rejecting its quirky presentation and poor PR straight off the bat as I almost did. Many of the RP principles, as I soon discovered, could be seen in action through subjective experience. Hell, most I already knew were true or was already following and just hadn’t noticed. Others didn’t apply or won’t work in my situation though I now see the merit of thinking that way. A select… Read more »

Tilikum
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@Rollo

Does a lion fall into a nihilistic depression or does he just kill the gazelle?

Observing reality should have emotion attached to it? The core of any emotional pain is the inability to accept reality.

These discussion remind me why I became a Taoist.

Mr T
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Mr T
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Poor Roosh I doubt whether he actually believed in the Redpill/the truth about women.
Just look at his writing/whining =where is the woman who would love me .

At 36 (he still young) he is still clueless.
Here is the fact:

Women love conditionally whether it is for Alphas or Betas.

lh
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lh
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@Thelien: “There’s plenty of such places in the world. Men escape them massively to do shitty migrant jobs in safer, richer countries. And the only woman they can get at home is who their parents arrange a marriage to.” There is truth in that, sure. But who do you think do they fuck after coming here and if the make it: how do they do it? On the other hand there are girls in those countries too and as Rollo says, they might not fuck me or you, but they will fuck someone. It will be the men who got… Read more »

d.t.
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d.t.
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so I guess you deleted my comment in response to your criticisms of roosh… funny because I just read something somewhere on here where you indicated you don’t censor anything on here.. interesting.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Kazaul

I don’t since my situation is very specific and I doubt my point of view would truly contribute (those new to RP would be confused by seemingly contrarian arguments and those already well established have already built acustom framework).

How often have you seen the specific used to illuminate a connection in the general? You should by now realize that all perspectives contributed have potential use in explaining reality because no single person can perceive all.

redlight
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redlight
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@dt

your 11:41 am comment is still there

CaveClown
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CaveClown
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@Tilikum,

The lion wasn’t raised to be a sheep first.

Ever see zoo animals get released to the wild?

They die.

Glenn
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Glenn
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@Nathan – Prove your asinine statement.

Glenn
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Glenn
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@Jeremy – Oh shut up. Revealing “lies” is not a moral endeavor? Stop playing semantic games to avoid the truth. This entire movement has a moral underpinning – improving the lives of men by revealing who they are lied to and suppressed by a society run amok with FI informed ideas.

Don’t argue about basics like this, it only reveals your biases.

Joe Katzman
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@insanity @Glenn There’s an unplugging process, and the 5 stages are involved. 4 of them are negative. That’s just reality. So, yes, insanity, you’re going to run into a lot of Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression in forums where people are unplugging and rearranging their mental furniture. With some shining exceptions like YaReally (who needs a compilation category somehow, Rollo), most people here are still in the changing our programming stage. BTW, poke some people while they’re in these stages and they’ll bite. In other news: the world is round. With that said, here’s where the Manosphere has it all over… Read more »

Nathan
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Nathan
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@Glen “asinine” lol

‘Reality’ Doug
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@DeNihilist “Men are built to fuck.” Granted, but high culture men, I believe, do not consider banging chicks the end all and be all. Evo psych is great at explaining animal nature, but culture distinguishes men from each other, with lesser men closer to the animals and women in mode of living. That is to say, people have a socioeconomic gravity, a culture-level side effect that conditions the social environment. I don’t want to just fuck at the drop of a hat. I think sex with women is a foundation and stepping stone to a larger world, but not in… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Glenn Revealing “lies” is not a moral endeavor? No, it isn’t. Morality is a specific system of values held by individuals right on up to whole civilizations. That system of values can only be based on human perception of their own reality. Since the FI and the lies propagated by it have existed for centuries through multiple civilizations, yet moral systems have changed drastically, I’m forced to conclude that such lies transcend moral systems and are in fact closer to biologically programmed deceptions. It is not too dissimilar to specific mating displays that some animals have that serve no other… Read more »

kobayashii1681
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@droidz – I think I see where you’re coming from with regard to motherhood. But the ego-investment in this belief is a facet of seeing things through a BP lens, it is a BP/BB trap…in my opinion.
I don’t think you can delineate motherhood from AF/BB, (a need is subset of a want); that instinct exists as a base setting and women at a biological, social level use AF/BB to realise a situation(s) where this instinct can be expressed.
But it cannot exist outside AF/BB, at least I don’t think so.

Tilikum
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Tilikum
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@CaveClown

Are you suggesting that the commenters here are (or were raised as) sheep?

The majority of the sphere was built for betas and lower sure, but I gotta think that when it’s all in front of you and you gotta make a choice, even the most overthinking brainsmoked Gamma chooses to heed his survival instinct.

If those men do not possess the desire to live then they should do the world a favor and choose harakiri. Let better men minister the resources they are just wasting with a mediocre existence.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Rollo “When I think on it now even Mystery became suicidal over his disillusionment with that girl Katya his obvious ONEitis (The Game) because he thought he could achieve his Blue Pill (old set of books) life goals with Red Pill awareness. I’m afraid to think what the outcome might be if Roosh ever developed ONEitis over a girl he believed would fulfill those Blue Pill hopes.” Ya, this is a real danger with just learning pickup/game and leaving it at that. It’s easy to trick yourself into thinking you’ve fixed more than you actually have. In a way it’s… Read more »

‘Reality’ Doug
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@rbrtolson “There’s an important distinction to be made between the search for truth and the search for meaning. These two have interplay, but they are by no means the same.”

Profound. I had not consciously taken it that far. Thanks. Adaptation means living with the truth that is most local to what and how you are, at the expense of other truths not actually in play. I don’t have it all worked out, but (universal?) truth and (personal?) meaning/mission/value definitely not coterminous. I think it has to do with instability of competiton per evolution.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Re: dt

What’s with all these people accusing Rollo of deleting comments lately? Dude, scroll up. Your comment is right there. Sometimes these things take a minute to show up. Same with assertions that he’s following a profit motive. Have you tried to give the guy your money? Good luck.

I’d start to wonder about Jeremy’s assertion that people are trying to spread FUD here…if they were a bit more effective about it.

Seraph
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Seraph
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“You may not be able to control the actions of others, you may not be able to account for women’s Hypergamy, but you can be prepared for them, you can protect yourself from the consequences of them and you can be ready to make educated decisions of your own based upon that knowledge.” Stamp this on the foreheads of all those coming here whining that Game serves no purpose if it doesn’t guarantee male 5’s will net 9’s and 10’s. It’s about knowing the true rules of the game, folks. Make of it what you will but you won’t be… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Joe Katzman

http://yareallyarchive.com/

‘Reality’ Doug
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@Tilikum “If those men do not possess the desire to live then they should do the world a favor and choose harakiri. Let better men minister the resources they are just wasting with a mediocre existence.” Any guy who feels low out there, it might be because you have superior value that the sheeple do NOT want you to realize. 38th Law of Power: Think as you like but behave like others. Don’t develop people skills: develop sheeple skills. The autoimmune defense of sheeple is incredible. Moving on… Better men are either given a big share of resources by nature… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Forge the Sky

…Like this is just pickup for pretentious people, lol.

Yes, picture of Rollo’s commenters:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101223201803/familyguy/images/thumb/3/34/Jamesbottomtooth3.png/500px-Jamesbottomtooth3.png

CaveClown
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CaveClown
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Tilikum,

Yes, sheep.

I think most men are either too far invested in being a sheep, or just have no idea how to embrace their masculine instincts. (Never taught to hunt)

The majority of the rest will succumb to a society that discourages the taking of that gazelle.

The true alphas will rise to the top, the rest…won’t.

A lion embraces being a lion because it doesn’t know any different. The same could be said for sheep…or a lion raised as a sheep.

CaveClown
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CaveClown
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If rollo was deleting comments, he would probably be smart enough to also delete the comment accusing him of deleting your comment.

*Rolls eyes*

Danger
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Danger
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Great read as usual Rollo. If however, I could give one piece of advice for your writings based upon my own experiences. I have often seen (and participated in) “Ideological” discussions which refer to “Truth”. We all have different versions of “the truth” and I think you do a potential dis-service to Red-Pill when you use that term. it can certainly appear to be more dogmatic. I believe Red-Pill is based more upon fact than “truth” and it would do a great deal of positives to frame the points in that light by simply substituting the word “fact” in place… Read more »

Bromeo
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Bromeo
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Anyone else enjoy reading Reddit RP section Field Report posts? I can read those all day lol

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Danger,

Your comment is actually worthy of another whole blog. Consider that claiming something is a “fact” is perhaps the strongest claim one could make about something you would say/claim. I understand and agree with your point, and I’m guilty myself of using the word “truth” in ways I shouldn’t (even in this same thread). But if I were to claim fact, the burden of proof goes up significantly (at least to my mind). Such claims would make this sort of on-my-water-breaks-commentary nigh impossible, because I’d spend more time sourcing my “facts” than discussing.

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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@Tilikum
“The core of any emotional pain is the inability to accept reality.”
That is still something I am struggling with even now.

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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@Rollo “Game is only going to be as liberating for a man in as far as he’s willing to accept it in terms of his own circumstance.” Went to a three day dance over the weekend. I am changing slowly. I have noticed that within my life and how I am go about doing things. A lot of people I used to hang around aren’t and weren’t friends. I also realize that I try to stay away from your blog or an a phone or by a computer. When I am around other people. Doing self work is real hard.… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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Just a note ’cause I skimmed and saw the “using PUA to try to fill blue pill goals” thing…I gotta think on that some more but at first glance I can’t say I disagree with that. It actually scratches the itch that I have with a lot (a LOT…LOTTTTTTT) of the Manosphere especially but also PUA/TRP (Mystery’s a good example), but mostly the Manosphere…guys approach it without fully swallowing the red pill. They do all this stuff and learn all this shit and bang all these girls but they’re still holding on with finger-tip grasp to the blue pill idea… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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@kobayashii1681:

There ya go.

Tilikum
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Tilikum
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@YaReally Again, much respect, Game recognize Game. Any success I’ve had in LTRs have come by finding a woman who: -observes the world as it is, and -doesn’t color her vision with “should be’s” -has as many options as I do (read: attractive) This has lead me to coming up with a profile that works pretty damn well. My only errors have centered around not understanding and calibrating to the distinctive effects that a woman aging even year to year have on her psyche. Best practices scenario to manage this seems to be higher T female, good genes/very pretty, raised… Read more »

Seraph
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Seraph
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@ Droid This… “You are correct that the world is changing and in many ways for the worse. When you and I were kids obesity was rare but today it’s out of control. The explanation for that and other problems like abortion is simple. Most of our instincts evolved to function optimally in a primitive environment. Anything that changes that environment such as technology necessarily leads to unexpected problems.” Does not address Rollo’s point about the abundance of abortions. If Motherhood is so strong an instinct, crowding out AF and BB, why would so many women decided to literally kill… Read more »

Divided Line
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@insanity

“One problem with red pills is that there is so much hostility ”

Did you ever considered the possibility that it’s deserved?

Vulpine
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Vulpine
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“Changing Your Programming” Glenn’s “punch-down block/wires” device from the last thread is a good one to use to help describe what I see as the “common struggle” with regards to the Red Pill and the Manosphere. See, “taking the red pill” creates a situation where all of your current understandings of social dynamics is suddenly suspect: where you had a “1”, you now have a “0”, since what you thought was true/right previously is revealed to be false/wrong. “Freshly unplugged” guys get stuck and struggle in the chaos that ensues after swallowing their dose. Mai Frau came home recently after… Read more »

Seraph
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Seraph
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@Vulpine,

Clap! Clap!

Wow. Just freakin’…wow.

Thank you. I have been mired in the women focused hell for a couple of years. This really spoke to me.

Damn.

A sign of a great site is not only the author, but the kind of commentators he attracts.

70'sAntiHero
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70'sAntiHero
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@ Rollo . . . sometimes subjective perception and objective reality coincides precisely. “Holy shit! if I don’t move out of the way that bus will hit me! ” The more simplistic the dynamic the easier the task, obviously. If not, then what is Science? Empiricism and peer review accounts for both, proof with agreed perception, if you will. Sometimes scientific conjecture is right the first time. Objective epistemology and a rigorous re-examining of the facts contextually. To your point it, ” that shouldn’t excuse us from making our best effort to remain objective.” As long as it is practiced,… Read more »

inpursuitoftruth123
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@zdroidz There is some unexplored depth to your notion that Motherhood constitutes a third motivating drive in women, in addition to AF and BB. The AF/BB dynamic is a manifestation of women trying to satisfy their various drives, whether rational (provisioning of BB) or irrational (sexual satisfaction of AF). Motherhood, not biological but behavioral, falls outside the purview of either AF or BB in terms of the drive being satisfied. It helps to analyze male driving forces alongside female driving forces because the complementarity of the sexes suggests that for every female driving force there should be a complementary male… Read more »

bo jangles
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bo jangles
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Roosh is a good businessman and a prolific blogger, that said he is no Pickup Artist nor has claimed to be(to his credit), nor is he particularly alpha. I remember when he still had up his flickr account, the photos spoke volumes, all of the girls were dogs and you could tell his social awkwardness in every photo. He only had one picture of a cute girl giving him any attention. If you want to know how alpha he is you need only read his whine-fest about being ambushed after going on the female centric doctor oz show somehow his… Read more »

bo jangles
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bo jangles
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I should add there is an interesting thing that happens in the stock market. Every bear market teaches a lesson, and the market always learns the wrong lesson. I think there were alot of simple truths in Pickup advice, but people being people get bored and move on to the next shiny object. The more fundamental aspect is that our culture has beaten down manliness(and womanliness) and neither women nor men are happy about it. It has to get bad enough until large portions of men finally won’t take it anymore. Men just have to decide to stop listening to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Nathan ” I’m a pro-life atheist” Contradiction in terms I’m with Glenn on this: your statement is asinine. When pointed out as such and asked to justify your position, you dodged because you have no response. While I’m agnostic atheist and don’t identify as pro-life, I can tell you that it is not inconsistent with atheist reasoning to be pro-life. Most (piss poor) pro-life arguments start from a religious perspective, but are legally bankrupt since they stand on the acceptance (and enforcement) of a particular religious view as law. (Hence the reason I feel most anti-abortion regulation these days is… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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Two good Tyler vids on the subject of realigning your expectations/goals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZANMgG6gTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O-sPbelDII One good example of this dynamic is what do we know makes a man attractive?: – he doesn’t NEED the girl to complete him – he has a purpose that isn’t HER, SHE is not his purpose – he has options and she worries that she could be replaced – he can WALK AWAY at any point if she doesn’t keep herself in shape or keep putting out or becomes unpleasant he can just end it and take off – he does what he wants when he… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“It’s not about being a mother. That’s EASY.

It’s about being mother to the right offspring.”

Ta da! I would add at the right time, in the right environment.

And while I’m here I’ll point out that women are takers of attention and ask: What demographic gives women the most attention?

What if women didn’t have babies in order to give love, but to take it?

YaReally
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YaReally
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Hell, look at Rollo. Successful long term marriage etc. What’s his job? Go out and be social while flirting with promo bottle girls (hello dread game and remaining a mystery at times!). What’s his hobby? Embracing game and leading other men. It’s probably safe to assume that he hits the gym and grooms/dresses himself well. Sure the legal marriage part is sticky but as long as he stays attractive and high-value and understands he can’t cry about his tummy for a week (and he knows that because he’s written articles about that), divorce shouldn’t be something he has to worry… Read more »

Seraph
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Seraph
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@Glenn, I went back to check on your comment last thread. Thanks for sharing, and I get it. Struggling with much the same. Trying to figure out which wires belong and which do not. What I struggle with is when I think in a certain direction, find myself gravitating toward something that MIGHT be me, might be genuine, I then begin to wonder if it’s real, or some other aspect of conditioning. In short, can I trust my instinct here. Of course, I realize it might also simply be rationalization for not trying. I guess that’s it…just TRY it. If… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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(also I’m talkin a cheap little studio apartment, not like a 2-bedroom or anything crazy lol Just a tiny little cheap “bachelor pad”, it can be anywhere in the city that you can get a good deal on it…sure right now you probably couldn’t go out and get one, but if you knew for 5-10 years ahead of time that you were going to want one at some point? And you understood how much of a difference it could make having a place to disappear to now and then and a place to stay (and make her worry) when you… Read more »

Vulpine
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Vulpine
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Thanks, seraph. I see a lot of frustration at the “what do I do with this RP knowledge now that I understand how women suck”, and wish I could better articulate the ultimately necessary shift in priority, once “women suck, but at least I can fuck them, now” is achieved. I missed a bunch of posts while typing up mine, so, pardon any redundancies. @YaReally I’m not trying to ram monogamy down anyone’s throat, per se. Understand that “versions” of LTRs can be awesome, and, “it’s not cheating if we’re sharing”. Mai frau likes girls, so, I can have stability… Read more »

zdr01dz
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zdr01dz
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just popped in for lunch. I’ve got 30 seconds.

Some people have made assertions that divorce and abortion are evidence that women lack a strong motherhood instinct. FTW!?! Soft thinking boys, I’m disappointed.

Does suicide prove that men have a weak instinct for self preservation?

http://i.imgur.com/kn1cM3r.jpg

Of course not. You guys need to harden’ the fuck up.

Ronin
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Ronin
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I think what a lot of guys like Roosh finally realize is that there’s more to life than chasing pussy and have a glimpse into the Abyss. I hit that at 32, the idea of sex with yet another virtual stranger lost all its attraction. I got lucky and met someone who jumped all the hoops and married her two years later. We lasted 24 years until she stared into her own Abyss and went off the rails entering menopause….What my 60 years on the planet has taught me is women are a pain in the ass and all basically… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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@Vulpine “I point that out, because, having an LTR with a truly awesome partner on your team can fulfill (many of) the same needs as remaining “free”, and more.” You’re saying the same thing as me. We’re both describing and end game where you have a main Primary girl (aka your LTR chick), and then girls you bang with her. She only fucks you and you fuck other girls with her or on your own on the side. Like I say, I don’t think many men wouldn’t be up for that arrangement if 1) they knew HOW to frame it… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“People pressure him to marry her but he’s prepared for that discussion and . . .”

. . . he says, “No thank you,” and returns his attention back to what he was doing.

Vulpine
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Vulpine
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@YaReally

I must’ve missed the connecting point.
*puts ice pick away*
No holes in an awesome ideal from me, sir.
Carry on.

Vulpine
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Vulpine
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Heh… duh… the solid points and videos were the connection I should’ve made. oops. I can read. Promise.

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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@Ronin
The way you explain tolerance and crazy is very familiar. I never even as a blue pill young man realized that crazy women would ever go away.
But I am not stable in my own and even in the red pill to manage a relationship. I still approach but I need to be more prepared before I get into one.

Danger
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Danger
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@Jeremy I understand what you’re saying regarding truth versus fact. I have been down that road and you are exactly right, you have to prove it. But the reality is, whether we use truth or fact, ultimately it always comes down to proving it. The difference is, truth is most associated with dogma, whereas facts are most associated with actual evidence. Of course, if we pushed it a little further and got in the habit of replacing “truth” with “fact”, we would find that the deniers still disagree even when the facts present themselves. I face this reality most often… Read more »

Seraph
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Seraph
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“Some people have made assertions that divorce and abortion are evidence that women lack a strong motherhood instinct. FTW!?! Soft thinking boys, I’m disappointed.” Awwwww…sorry, Dad! “Does suicide prove that men have a weak instinct for self preservation?” Nice try. I did not claim that the motherhood instinct was “weak” with women. I contend that you give it far too much credit/credence/etc. when weighed against other female concerns/interests. Your contention was that the Motherhood instinct over rode both AF and BB… “Obviously this is debatable but in my world Motherhood appears to win. Beta Bucks comes in second and Alpha… Read more »

Nathan
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Nathan
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@YaReally

Post the curriculum. I know it’s all about going out. Done.

Post what’s more than that. If its simply your archive, cool.

zdr01dz
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zdr01dz
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This is getting way off track.

Riddle me this. What does this picture of two older women taking care of an orphaned owl have to do with Beta Bucks? Nothing.

http://i.imgur.com/8gmQ4rY.jpg

I have 2 main points.

1) AF/BB does not correctly describe or predict female behavior.

2) Add in a motherhood instinct and women become predictable. The epiphany makes sense. The relatively low interest in Alphas makes sense. The 1% rate of paternity fraud makes sense. Everything falls into place.

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