You Never Forget Your First

first

I thought this was an interesting comment from CaveClown from a few posts ago. Needless to say the commentariat has increased in the last 6 months and I wanted to air this out rather than have it buried five pages deep:

Rollo, question if you have time.
After unsuccessfully searching the archives, and having read your new book, i wonder if you have a post that further explains:

1. Why a “good girl” would skip the party years.
2. Why that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider.

I understand that the “good girl” persona is just an attempt at seduction through differentiating herself from the “sluts”

I also understand that the “promise” of dropping the good girl act ‘for him’ is what snags the beta. The promise of her “sexual best” and all. (which is why women that do ride the carousel go “born again” later, no?)

At first glance, it seems like a solid strategy for hypergamy. If she can sell herself as virtuous, pure, and virginal, then she should have higher SMV.

Then why settle for a beta?

I’m trying to reconcile the “good girl” persona, and the manosphere trope about marrying a virgin. Seems a lot of men think that “if I could just find a virgin” things would be ok for them. (which is just a variation of blue pill/soul mate stuff)

 

I detailed a bit of the first question in Making Up For Missing Out and Good Girls Do. It’s important to make the distinction between a ‘good girl’ in that she’s nominally following the old-set-of-books traditional social contract, and the Good Girl strategy I went into in the latter post.

Bear in mind, no woman actually “skips” the Party Years. She may participate to greater or lesser degree in the opportunities those years open up to her, but she’s still keenly aware of those opportunities and realizes the window for them closes as her beauty and fertility fade. She sees her girlfriends, maybe sisters, indulge those opportunities, or she may live them vicariously through media that panders to them, but regardless, she’s feeling the pull of knowing she could potentially realize them.

One of my best friends married his first wife very early – him 21, and her 19. The guy was very Alpha (military), but had the White Knight script firmly coded into him courtesy of his Blue Pill conditioning. He did everything by the old set of books and knew he wanted to marry her after they’d been together for about eight months. He wasn’t her first lay, but she didn’t have more than 1 previous boyfriend, so while not a virgin she hadn’t been on the proverbial carousel for long at all.

They had three kids, early and out of the gate right after they married. She ‘played house’ well enough all through her 20’s while her sisters and girlfriends had their Party Years and urged her to come along for their GNOs. Once their youngest was old enough to be self-sufficient she started joining them. By the time she was 33 the marriage was over because she’d decided to follow the making up for missing out dynamic. She ended up cheating on him and then doing her version of the Wild Oats Project.

Virgin Brides Alpha Widows

There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature.

By all measure this guy’s wife was as close to that ideal as was practical. He’s also one of more than a dozen men I’ve known who’s “good Christian wives” detonated their marriages in a similar fashion. Generally all went along with the divorce-porn fantasies after their dutiful husbands had become boring Betas in their esteem.

2. Why [would] that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider.

Religious conviction, LSE (low self esteem), definitely cultural or economic motivations, a fear of men in general leading to security issues. You also have to consider the likelihood that the guy she settles on early is possibly the most Alpha guy she’s ever experienced.

Of the 40+ women I’ve had in my sexual past, two were virgins. Both of these women sought me out on Face Book 15-20 years after we’d went our separate ways. They are definitely not the same girls I knew back then, but I think this is an interesting illustration of a larger dynamic. Then and now, both of these girls surprised me with their attachment to me – I think that’s part of a bond you make with a woman when you’re her first.

It’s the “never forget your first” dynamic. There’s a presumption that any guy a “good girl” grants access to her pussy must be a top tier man to qualify for it. This is an ingrained psychological schema for women with the self perception of being a “good girl”.

So she consolidates on what she perceives was Alpha for her at 18. That perception is markedly different from what she’ll perceive as Alpha at 29, right as she enters her Epiphany Phase. If you read back through the Preventive Medicine series (or the book), I specifically outline a phase on women maturation timeline called the Break Phase. This is generally around the late teens (17-19) and I noted it in particular because it’s a moment in a young man’s life when his Blue Pill idealism is most commonly first tested.

The flip side of the Break Phase for women is the “never forget your first” dynamic conflicting with the opportunities her rapidly approaching peak SMV phase present to her. There may be an emotional investment on her part with a man she up to that point esteemed as the most Alpha man she was likely to ever pair with.

The Jig is Up

The danger inherent in these arrangements is that both young men and women make life-altering  decisions based on their adolescent social skill set – not what will be their (hopefully) matured adult social skill set based on their experiences and acculturation. Thus you have the common situation my now-divorced friend experienced. I say common because one of the most frequent situations I get asked advice about from divorced men in their mid 30’s to early 40’s is how to initiate Game and wisely use their new Red Pill awareness after having been married since 23 or so.

For the most part they’re still confused how the woman who’d found them so Alpha at that age could toss off all of the relational equity he’d thought he’d earned with her and leave him for the ‘douchebags’ she’d always claimed to hate. What they don’t (or didn’t) realize is the root level resentment they’re experiencing with a woman they may have been married to for 15 years. That resentment stems from coming to terms with their Hypergamous filtering having been ‘fooled’ all those years ago; and the crush loss of not having been able to capitalize on the opportunities of those years.

It’s not that she’d settled for what she thought was a Beta in her early twenties, it’s that he was what she thought was Alpha then, but learned later that he wasn’t. This is the risk inherent to Hypergamy – that a woman might miss out on more optimal sexual selection choices while still in her peak SMV phase and able to choose from the broadest pool.

It’s almost a reversal of women who follow the Sandberg plan of Hypergamy and make disclaimers of how different they are now from how they used to be in college. The sentiment is still the same, but the roles are reversed – she’s different now from how she used to be because she (thinks) she has a better grasp of what is Alpha now and he ain’t it.

If there’s a silver lining to this it’s that this post-marriage Epiphany Phase generally happens earlier in a man’s life. If he’s made a lot of his potential up to then, and the divorce wasn’t too devastating, he’s in a far better position as far as life stage is concerned than the Beta guy a woman settles for at 29 after her Party Years. That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.

559 comments

  1. There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature.

    Two things:

    First, I’m curious if you would include me in that contingent.

    Second, you are absolutely right that a woman being a virgin is airtight protection from reality. It isn’t. In fact, there are a few guys in the ‘sphere who married virgins only to get bounced. A woman is always a woman, no matter her N-count. Female nature is as inescapable as death and taxes. And even if she knows she is supposed to fight her nature, and even if she knows how to fight her nature, a woman can always change her mind about fighting it in the first place.

  2. so when a girl is giving it up to a guy “she perceives” as alpha at the time of her party years and then slowly gets bored and breaks up with him or whatever…..then she looks back 10 years down the road and “she perceives” him as even more alpha then before because maybe he’s a top dog lawyer or something….

    How does a woman handle that? Will she come back with more passion? Or will she just forget about it and rationalize it

  3. Women fight their nature all the time.
    Hence girlfriends deciding not to go to events where they KNOW tons of alphas will be there. Idk I keep reminding myself that there is no “special snowflake unicorn”. Which is true, but I do think there are very different types of girls out there

  4. In my AFC days I was always worried that a girl who broke up with me would “forget” me….there was something about that which bothered me—that the time we had spent together was a waste.

    But over the years I’ve had women reconnect after months, even years. In one very odd case a girl I guess you could say I ‘gamed’ 10+ years ago just before she was to be married disappeared. We never had anything between us. She was hot. I think I was a kind of orbiter.

    A year or so ago it turns out she is working for my company in another city and she was actually working with me on something. She showed up at the hotel…for lunch…spent the whole time blabbing about personal stuff and “catching up” and wanted to hang out all afternoon. She had had a few kids and seemed…bored so my coming to town was an “event”. Of course I kept the whole thing professional and was quite aloof which I think only got her more excited. That event serves as a kind of “ah hah” moment…they never forget..

  5. On topic:
    The statement, “you never forget your first” is very true for women. This is why I always laugh when guys think they have “compete” control over a girl they are with in their early to late twenties. By her mid twenties, at least in America, the girl is already an Alpha Widow to her first “love”. I’ve seen this situation happen many times with not only women I have dated but with women in my family.

    The women I grew up with, still to this day(!), will gush at how they still remember (Him) and this is after years of being a mother and with multiple children at that.

    Off topic:
    I take it you will have a rebuttal ready for this:

    Roosh is, without a doubt, creating a church. He’s a strategist at heart, so he’s been following the 48 Laws of Power with impunity. Some of the laws he’s followed so far include:

    LAW 7) Get others to do the work for you, but always take the credit!
    LAW 8) Make other people come to you — use bait if necessary!
    LAW 11) Learn to keep people dependent on you
    LAW 14) Pose as a friend, work as a spy
    LAW 20) Do not commit to anyone
    LAW 23) Concentrate your forces
    LAW 25) Re-create your life!
    LAW 26) Keep your hands clean
    LAW 27) Play on people’s need to believe to create a cult like following
    LAW 29) Plan all the way to the end
    LAW 31) Control the options — get others to play with the cards you deal
    LAW 32) Play to people’s fantasies
    LAW 35) Master the art of timing
    LAW 36) Disdain things you cannot have — ignoring them is the best revenge!
    LAW 39) Stir up waters to catch fish!
    LAW 43) Work on the hearts and minds of others!
    LAW 45) Preach the need for change, but never reform too much at once!
    LAW 48) Assume formlessness

  6. There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature.

    Yes, a virgin bride does not ensure insulation from the sexual marketplace, but it cannot be said that there is no effect at all, as the correlation between previous number of partners and divorce rates clearly shows. In the example of Rollo’s best friend:

    He wasn’t her first lay, but she didn’t have more than 1 previous boyfriend, so while not a virgin she hadn’t been on the proverbial carousel for long at all.

    The data shows that no prior cocks (i.e., husband is her first and only) correlates with a 80% rate of remaining married, whereas even one prior cock reduces that survival rate to only 50%, and lower as the number of prior cocks increase. This is probably due to a relationship between virginity and religiousness (old-fashioned conservative values), but nonetheless the correlation exists.

    So yes, there is good reason for the “holding out for a (not born again) virgin” idea.

  7. Great stuff Rollo. And you do a pitch perfect job of illuminating the distinctions and commonalities between the early-life marriage divorcee vs. the carousel rider turned late bride. Although neither fits in with my own situation. I married a girl when she was 25 (I was 29), her notch count was disclosed as 12 (so let’s call it 35 and I’ve made the note to never again ask). We were married all of a year before it was almost nightly GNO, sexless marriage hell, etc. Fast forward six months and the marriage ended. I had only just discovered the manosphere in the last few months of the marriage, too late to remedy the situation. Here’s the kicker though: I found out a month after we separated that she had begun seeing another guy before we even split and now, two years on, she’s just married the guy. I had essentially wooed her with game techniques back when we started dating, in the pre-manosphere and pre well-developed science of game and hypergamy days, so I must’ve had some alpha elements to me. A bunch of tragedies struck her in that time we were together (she had a brain tumor, her dad died at a young age six months after our wedding, etc.) and these resulted in my betatizing myself more that I suspect would otherwise be the case. A mutual friend has indicated that her switch was partly financial (apparently her new beau had inherited some money from a dead relative of his own). Is it possible that she as her epiphany phase approached left me, the former alpha-lite who’d turned mostly beta from a rare combination of bad luck falling upon her, to upgrade her beta bucks? I’ve known a handful of marriages similar in timing that have started and ended on this time scale. Is there a theory for this early/mid-20s marriage that collapses during a woman’s the epiphany phase and leads directly to another monogamous relationship as opposed to a carousel ride or did I just pick a losing hand to invest in what with tragedy befalling her at every step?

    I ended up doubling my income within six months of the split, so I have to chuckle a bit at the thought that she left me for greener pastures. I’m also in the process of interviewing with a company (relocation would be required) that may result in doubling that income again.

  8. @BC

    The “correlation doesn’t imply causation” aspect had gotta play a big role in this. The virgin bride in the post-modern US (or even low single digit N-count) is almost entirely so because of a major dose of religious, cultural, and familial pressures and constraints. Those same pressures and constraints that keep her hymen intact also serve to keep her marriage intact. That woman’s eyes still wander, her hypergamy is no less pronounced than any other woman’s. It’s merely the same religious, cultural, and familial forces that kept her chastity preserved that will express profound social shame should she renege on her vows.

  9. The picture below is haunting how do I get a Big Copy of it I love it Good article too

    Sent from my iPhone

  10. @BC

    And a note to self, I will now read comments fully before commenting.

    Though I’ll also readily admit that I suspect a man of the sphere and a woman of deep and abiding religious devotion will have some difficulties along the way. My general experience with a religious girl is that she will expect some measure of comparable belief (if not the same piety) from her mate. And my experience with the manosphere, outside of Dalrock, has been a pronounced scientific methodology, a general understanding and appreciation of biological evolution, and the sort of personality that a woman of devotion will simply not mesh with.

  11. Hey, at least the guy got some heirs out of it and got to tap that ass until she hit the wall. Better than the sorry @ss mofos who came later. With any luck he’s out of the divorce with minimal damage and can start dating/plating/mating with younger women (although as a bluepill, probably not).

    There are no unicorns, death is inevitable and we are all fundamentally alone. But other than that, life if a picnic.

  12. @sudden

    Though I’ll also readily admit that I suspect a man of the sphere and a woman of deep and abiding religious devotion will have some difficulties along the way.

    Hardly. My easiest scores without commitment were all deeply religious chicks. One was a married chick. They all wanted me to commit but let me hit it many times before pushing for commitment.

    They’re easier to get in to bed because they’re not used to even remotely Alpha behavior out of men (modern Christianity produces Beta eunuchs), and one whiff of it leaves them wanting you to stay with them even if you’re openly against their religious beliefs (which I am).

    As I mentioned on the last thread: the highly religious chick who had only been with her husband followed the “Making up for missing out” script to a T, taking interest in me in her early-mid 30s when she first met me. I didn’t even have to do anything except stop telling her “no”. This script applies to all women, regardless of religion or pre-marriage N.

    Marrying a virgin does correlate with higher marriage retention, but it’s nowhere near being a guarantee. The burden of performance is always there for men. It’s just too bad I learned it by losing a lot of chicks to other dudes myself before getting a clue.

    @All

    BTW, it got buried in last thread (didn’t realize Rollo had the new post up) but I posted a rough edit of our first attempt at recording for The Man Table. Check it out here if you’d like, and feel free to complain or compliment as needed. I’ll try to get more stuff up on the actual site after I complete my move in just over two and a half weeks.

  13. The fewer previous sexual partners, the better but it does not make up for a lack of game/redpill awareness. The same goes for religion. These things improve your odds of success (and even small improvements count in the sexual market place) but they do NOT exempt you from the burden of performance.

  14. It’s not that women realise the man’s beta traits. Its that she turns him into one through the process of commitment. Women want yet scorn the idea of betaising their men and ‘fixing them up. Yet they secretly hate it when it happens. They’re a walking contradiction.
    The solution is simple, don’t get married.

  15. Rollo,

    Thank you for the insights, and taking the time to cover my question in a post.

  16. Virginity is supposed to be an outward expression of inward virtue. Just because a woman is a virgin doesn’t necessarily mean she’s virtuous. Hence why guys can marry a virgin and then she may divorce or cheat on him later.

    Purity of heart is the more important concept to look for.

    As for guys it is also about the state of your heart.

  17. “…LSE (low self esteem)… a fear of men in general leading to security issues.”

    Beware the virgin bride who sells herself as virtuous and pure, all in an attempt to cover up these or other mental health issues.

  18. I met my ex-to-be when I was 21 and she was 23. We were living together in 6 months, married when I was 24 and split when I was 30. I have speculated here often about how Beta I became in the relationship, but I realize now that this behavior was better described as “White Knight”, or Savior kind of behavior. Which of course turned me into a supplicant to her.

    She was a 10 (9 on the Tomassi scale but objectively she was homecoming and prom queen) and initially she was an enthusiastic lover. I think Rollo lays out exactly what happened to her. She came from a very dysfunctional mother and had low self-esteem. She was wounded, as I was, and we both “fit” in that way for each other. But I think as she matured, she started to see she could do better.

    For her the turning point came when I began to demand she treat me well and cornered her in a place where she could no longer deny that she was not acting like she loved me anymore. She immediately began an affair that carried on for 6+ months until I called it quits.

    I believe that one of the key ideas I internalized which hurt my marriage is the idea of “serving” my family. I thought that was how I demonstrated value to my wife, and my larger social system. I saw my life and role as putting together the family that neither of us had growing up. I thought by throwing myself into being a provider via my rabid ambition and work ethic, I demonstrated my “value” – but my ex just increasingly resented it. I now get it – she wanted service AND tingles out of me. It used to madden me. No matter how good a Dad I was or how amazing my career was going, she just treated me worse and worse.

    And for her it all falls apart when she hits 29-30, and she realizes it’s time to consolidate her gains. The GNOs begin out of nowhere – which I encouraged because before that she had basically no social life and few friends up until then. Meanwhile I’m trying to “earn it” in a way that I never did when we were younger and first together. I always held strong frame and always kept a lot more of the focus on me when I was younger, but marrying and becoming a father neutered all that.

    So, to summarize it was our immaturity that had us get married – I was alpha enough for her at the time. It was her maturing and me becoming the White Knight from Hell that helped dry her pussy up, and society and hypergamy that had her size up her options and decide she could do better. Interestingly, this is a destructive feedback loop because the harder I “tried”, the more she despised me. All makes sense now. Finally.

    Sadly, I don’t think having it happen young to me was good in my circumstances. I’ve had 9 serious girlfriends since then (and many other encounters), but each time after 5-6 months I moved on because when it came down to thinking about getting married and having another family, I simply could not face the risk of getting divorced again.

    I also kept “serving” my ex-wife and daughter. I was the perfect non-custodial Dad, didn’t make a big deal about the new guy (after all, I was finding many hotties who wanted to fuck my brains out) and for a while it seemed like all would be well. In my case, my ex subtly excised me from the family system and denigrated me in the extreme in ways that didn’t really even start to become clear to me until my daughter’s 18th birthday.

    I never have really regained my footing since. Over time, the faux family I was serving became less of a motivator, and now, with the denouement of that nightmare complete in the form of an estranged adult daughter (with whom I was close to and provided for and had no “problems” with growing up), the extent to which I’ve lived my head inside of a self-destructive illusion is clear.

    I only woke up to how badly I was used and cast aside 2.5 years ago. Until then, I still believed at some level that I could “serve” my way out of it. Now I know this. A lifetime of service to women and your family gets you exactly nothing in this FI dominated society.

    Here’s a little gem to just make clear what a sap I was. 3 years after we split, my ex is planning to take the kiddo to Disney World with her new hubby and I mention it casually as the date gets closer. My daughter is excited about it and I’m fine – I hate shit like that anyway so I’m glad for Mom to deal with that. I’ve already gotten my daughter down her first black diamond run skiing by this age and we have lots of fun at the beach or hiking etc. I stop by for some reason and mention the trip to my ex. She begins wavering and then crying saying, “We aren’t going to be able to go. We over-promised and don’t have the money to do it.” I write a check for around 1,000 bucks on the spot as I don’t want my daughter to be disappointed and they go. All extra money, on top of the 1200/month child support (this is in ’95), health insurance, paying fees for camps and sports and every other motherfucking thing. I did this kind of thing with some regularity for her, as I thought I was “the right thing to do”. Lol. What a fucking sap I was.

    You see I thought this made me a “good man” and a “good father”. Even after the divorce I was still playing the White Knight, thinking I can “earn it”. This is how I got chewed up and spit out over the next 17 years. And when I ran out of money after I got sick and 2008 wrecked me? Then I was scraped off by the ex and my daughter for good. Hey, they were just doing what I taught them to do. I taught them that my value was in doing for them. When that stopped, there was no residue of respect or gratitude or reciprocity – just loathing.

    Now, at 52, having only new realized that I wrecked the shank of my life by being a White Knighting, Blue Pill vassal, well lets just say I’m not having an easy time of it. While the generalized rage is over, surely there is wellspring of anger available to tap into any time. But the overwhelming sense for me is one of hopelessness. Having all that I valued and all that I strove for in my life to be shown to be a fucking joke is not easy to digest. To realize that I’ve served myself so poorly – most of all – is hard to swallow.

    Worst of all? While I can intellectually get all of this, and use game to fuck women, and even forgive my daughter as all of the hurt and grief subsides, I cannot seem to find a new motivation. In fact, I never really was self-motivated in my life. At first it was about proving to my Dad that I wasn’t a loser and then it was about being a better father than him, and then trying to prove to my ex that I was a great husband and father, and then living in the echoes of that for 15 years.

    So now what? Who am I to be? My 20 yr old hottie fucking days are rapidly drawing to a close. I can’t make myself get fired up for business, for working out or for friendships, even playing music is losing it’s joy for me. The Red Pill has cleared away my delusions and the lies and the confusion, but it’s left me with nothing. What, am I going to go marry a younger woman and start another family now? The vision I had of being the beloved father and grandfather has been smashed, along with being the respected Uncle and brother etc. Funny, in that situation, the more inaccessible I am to my sisters and the more I game them, the more they love and appreciate me. So sick. I do less and treat them worse, and they value me more.

    I have written the third act of my life – but I have no inchoate desire to get up off the ground and live it. I have no taste for the fight anymore. I have no dreams worth living for. That’s the cost to a man of living this way. So, all you tradcon guys out there who think that you are doing something noble, just remember that even the people you serve don’t appreciate it, let alone the rest of society. You are just being a sucker in today’s world. And the moment you are no longer necessary, you can and will be disposed of.

  19. I think what a lot of guys are looking for in both Blue Pill and Red Pill is some kind of Bumper to Bumper 100,000 mile warranty that will keep their marriage intact… There isn’t one. Men tend to operate on logic, women on the emotion of the moment, which is why things like chastity belts were invented. If your marriage goes bad after 10-20 years take pleasure in the fact you got all the pretty, the other guy gets your leftovers.

  20. Alfalfa or Betamax, in the long run it is lack of clarity of what life is really about. The bombardment of exciting things happens 24/7/365. Yes women and men after x years feel that they are missing out. “life is more then this. I deserve it” Boom.

    Some actually have a better life after, but sadly, according to a lot of mental health pro’s, most do not.

    As a very wise man has said repeatedly – ‘Love is an Act of Will’

    My father, never, in his 95 years on this globe borrowed or lent a dime. We needed something, we waited til the money was there. Now, as 07 showed, no to many people want to wait for the gratification, so it becomes easy and less fulfilling.

    Like love, life is also an act of will.

  21. Disclaimer
    The following is not meant to be a threadjack. If you aren’t interested please don’t feel the need to respond. Continue with your conversation about Rollo’s post. I used my mad Photoshop skillz to make this and I wanted to upload it as it is my last, significant contribution on the subject.

  22. Female sexual strategy is comprised of three instincts. AF, BB and Motherhood. A minority of women focus heavily in one area while most follow a comprehensive strategy that is a mixture of all three. At their simplest these instincts can be described in this way.

    AF: Acquire good genes.
    BB: Assemble the resources.
    Motherhood: Raise the child.

    By itself AF/BB is not a good predictor of female behavior. AF forecasts that women will strongly pursue short term sexual access to Alpha males. Although that behavior occurs it is not the norm. In addition AF predicts a much higher level of paternity fraud than the roughly 1% seen in the developed world. AF/BB also runs counter to most women’s strong desire to have children. Parenthood causes a significant and permanent reduction to female SMV which hampers both AF and BB strategies. The motherhood instinct explains secondary care behaviors as well as most women’s low interest in short term sexual relationships. Commonly observed behavior indicates that either Motherhood or BB tend to be the largest components in female strategy. AF appears to be the smallest.

    The following are representative partner choices for each strategy.

    AF: Good looks, high social status and charisma are valued. Professional athletes, politicians or entertainment figures are prime examples.

    BB: Any man that possesses a notable resource or shows an indication that he will in the future qualifies. The source of this capital is inconsequential and the amount involved can range from a vast fortune to a meager pittance. These assets may be enduring or transitory.

    Motherhood: Financial stability and consistency over time is valued. Risk is unattractive. Skilled workers with dependable incomes such as firemen, tech workers or physicians are desirable candidates.

    *A more precise name for these behaviors would be reproductive strategies. However AF/BB is universally referred to as a female sexual strategy so that was left unchanged.

  23. Great post Rollo.

    This reminds me of how other societies separate their women from society. Perhaps this kind of behavior is the only response to FI Hypergamy.

    For my part I nixed the GNOs early with an LTR once. One night of her coming home at 3am is all it took. In a cold fury I told her it was me or her girlfriends.

    I often look back on that and ask myself “what if”. I literally had to threaten leaving to get her to wake up to the implications of going out like this. I firmly believe that had I not done this nuclear option threat she would have left me by now. Why do we have to act as if a long term relationship means NOTHING to us to get a woman to stay? I know the law who needs least rules the relationship. But when you have invested time… have a life together… it’s hard to go into life’s casino and say “all in”.

    Maybe that’s the point. Unless you have the balls to lay it all on the line the woman has the power.

    To all those 3rd act guys in their 50s… All I can say is TRAVEL TO SOUTH EAST ASIA. GO just GO and sample a multitude of females that are a world away in attitude from western women.

  24. @droids

    Should post that at your own blog so nobody can read it there.

    @rollo,

    Can we please dump the spammer?

  25. A man thinking in terms of generations should plan for at least 3 LTRs in his life that yield children. All of my boys know that after 18, you ALWAYS keep a lawyer on retainer for the balance of your existence.

    Set your self up to succeed gentleman, by not trusting that a dopey split tail can be ever trusted wholly (including dear old mom).

    All relationships other than from you down to your children, are conditional.

  26. Ang, one of roissy’s points is to be the rock for her emotions to break upon, or something like that.

    Most women need stability, but not in a sissy way.

  27. @ zdr01dz

    Disclaimer
    The following is not meant to be a threadjack. If you aren’t interested please don’t feel the need to respond. Continue with your conversation about Rollo’s post. I used my mad Photoshop skillz to make this and I wanted to upload it as it is my last, significant contribution on the subject.

    That’s just bullshit. “not meant to be a threadjack” and then you do precisely that. People are going to respond to you. Now you’re becoming both a spammer *and* a troll and it is plainly obvious. You made your “case”, many here reject it, some accept it. If you want to blather on about it more, stay on those threads or create your own blog. Don’t play some bullshit game where you pretend you’re not doing the very shit you’re doing.

  28. “Roosh is, without a doubt, creating a church. He’s a strategist at heart, so he’s been following the 48 Laws of Power with impunity.”

    He even has his character/avatar look like Jesus. Purposely grown a beard to give him the the old/wise man look. He definitely has a Messiah complex!

  29. With respect, my take on Cave Clown’s question in the post is different, and it relates to the way we define hypergamy. Often, in these blogs, hypergamy is taken to mean that women desire men who are generally “better” than them. But I don’t believe this to be strictly true. Rather, women want men who are better (or at least equal) at the specific qualities the women most admire in themselves, or wish they had themselves, at the given time.

    Thus, a 19 year old girl who most admires her own appearance and social status and who wishes that she had more power will want a stereotypically Alpha male – strong, good-looking, high social status.

    That same woman at age 29 will start to prioritize differently, as her biological clock ticks louder. She will begin to prioritize her desire for family and stability over her previous priorities, and will view herself as having “matured”. She will seek a Beta male with as much Alpha as she can. This isn’t because she is “settling” for a Beta (necessarily), but rather that Beta traits are specifically what she is looking for at that time.

    That same woman at age 39, after having married and had kids, no longer prioritizes having babies and a stable nest, and her priorities will change yet again, depending on her personality. Some personalities will prefer more Alpha, some more Beta – but the key being that the type of man desired will depend on her priorities at the time. As her priorities change, she will hope that her husband changes – and will get frustrated if he doesn’t.

    Now, back to your original question – why would a high-quality 22 year old woman specifically SEEK OUT a Beta male, when she could have an Alpha? The answer is that the qualities this particular woman most admires in herself at that time are the qualities of stability, and thus she specifically seeks a man with those qualities.

    It is a fallacy to say that all women necessarily want an Alpha, and that they will only “settle” for a Beta. Women who prioritize “Beta” qualities will seek out Beta men. This doesn’t mean that priorities won’t change over time – they might and often do – but the priorities of the time will dictate choice of a partner, and those priorities don’t always follow Rollo’s generalized timeline.

  30. Novaseeker had the best response to Zdroid’s tripartite feminine drives. I can’t find it right now so I’ll try to summarize it.

    Motherhood isn’t a separate drive. Rather, motherhood is subsumed within AF and BB, but for different reasons under each.

    Motherhood in relation to AF is to get the best genetic material available for fertilization and giving birth to strong, healthy babies.

    Motherhood in relation to BB is the acquisition, cultivation and deployment of resources (time, labor, money) to raise babies to adulthood, or at least keep them from getting killed.

    Motherhood isn’t a “separate drive”, distinct from AF and BB. AF and BB both serve the ultimate goal of motherhood, albeit at different times and using different particular strategies.

    The reason it is expressed as AF and BB, or AF/BB, is because it is useful shorthand to describe what each of those strategies looks like and what they mean for men who are navigating an increasingly hostile and minefield-dotted sexual marketplace.

    Zdroids, I think the above is the answer to the riddle you’ve posed. And even if it is not, it’s really what men need to know with regard to how a woman’s drive to motherhood relates to them in the sexual marketplace.

  31. Even if Droid were 100% correct, a motherhood instinct has almost no bearing whatsoever on how women treat the men they may or may not have sex with, hence it is off-topic for this blog.

  32. `@Tilikum – Indeed, it seems you have a very strong self-orientation and a wise approach to things. I try to imagine sometimes what I might have done with my life had I known what was what when I was 18 or 24. The day I got married, I knew I shouldn’t be doing it in my guts. But I did so anyway. It was the script I’d been handed and what I “wanted” or didn’t was small beer. The entire point of my growing up was to teach me that what I wanted was to be overcome, not embraced.

    The entire point was to have me put the bit in my mouth and start fucking pulling. So I did. Am I the only Irish-Catholic guy here? I called it “Donkey Irish”, that hard working, keep your head down and “do the right thing” kind of mentality.

    Having shaken it, I cannot seem to work up the verve you display here and frankly, I admire it. I’m open to suggestions as to how to get the fuck out of my own way. I realize I was dismissive of the ego comment, but I’m not talking about being upset. I’m talking about sinking into a nihilism that I’ve never had before. I feel like I’m turning the key on an engine that won’t start. As I work on self-improvement and move through this journey, the lack of any real motivation is becoming clearer and clearer. I get fired up every once in a while but the trend is down, not up. And the deeper I go into the Red Pill, the more unmoored I feel. Not anywhere near as angry, but truly just completely spent or something. It’s not like any funk or depression I’ve ever had either.

    I’ve either made a hash of my life, or I’ve been overrun by forces beyond my control but in any event, I’m left with a firm grip on an empty bag. What is the vision for a single, older man? Even writing that seems absurd, I know I could throw myself at something but it all just seems so futile anymore.

    Fuck.

  33. “Why [would] that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider? A:Religious conviction, LSE (low self esteem), definitely cultural or economic motivations, a fear of men in general leading to security issues. You also have to consider the likelihood that the guy she settles on early is possibly the most Alpha guy she’s ever experienced.”

    Don’t bite my head off Tomassi, but some of us never even thought of ourselves as “good girls.” In fact, healthy religious conviction allows you to be aware that you aren’t good at all. Some of us did not “settle for beta providers” at all, nor did we suffer from low self esteem or a fear of men.

    As usual your red pill theories put all of the onus on women as if men are just victims of women’s uncontrollable hypergamy and sexual strategy. You are free to do as you wish of course, but to approach things from that perspective leaves many in a state of learned helplessness, unable or unwilling to see their own behavior in the equation.

    Women marry for provision, protection, intimacy, to have babies. We primarily leave men due to contempt. What inspires contempt? Perpetual learned helplessness, the same kind of helplessness that your ideology promotes. Everything is based on evo/psych theories, as if women are just these flukes of evolution. In an odd kind of paradox, we’re supposed to sit on our own alleged uncontrollable hypergamy and be good girls for you.

  34. “Now, back to your original question – why would a high-quality 22 year old woman specifically SEEK OUT a Beta male, when she could have an Alpha? The answer is that the qualities this particular woman most admires in herself at that time are the qualities of stability, and thus she specifically seeks a man with those qualities.”

    Alpha fucks / Beta bucks is hard wired. Nature, not nurture. (which btw, is what Roosh is getting wrong with his take on evolution, mistaking nurture for nature)

    With that truth in mind…

    If she seeks security at such a young age, then there is a “nurture” aspect to it, one way or another. Religion, fear, insecurity, childhood abuse, or a million other things. (ideally, it would be because of a strong father)

    So…she seeks and finds security in a beta, or even an alpha. (if only in her eyes)

    There will ALWAYS be that feeling of “missing out” if she skips the party years. Alpha fucks is always there, even if she does not realize it. (likely)

    What keeps the kids’ hands out of the cookie jar?

    The question then becomes, how will that feeling manifest itself? THAT depends on the individual woman, the influences in her life, and the man she’s with.

  35. Usual timeline:

    1. Early consolidator girl (virgin, or at least “virgin-ish”) marries beta.
    2. Alpha fucks kicks in, girl shit tests beta.
    3. Beta fails tests. (Doubles down on being beta)
    4. This goes on for years or whatever.
    5. Epiphany phase.
    6. Girl either cheats, leaves, or shit tests beta until he breaks. (leaves, suicide, rock bottom escapism)
    7. Relationship ends.

    By my count, the man can fix this at steps #1 or #2. (be more alpha)

    Get very far into step #3 and you’re fucked. (probably not literally fucked though, lol)

  36. RT, There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal.

    I’m laughing here on the “wishful”. I know many, many men and communities who are living out this mythical “goal”. For traditional religious people (I’m not taking about modern “Christian” MTD here) chastity followed by marriage is the norm. Women benefit greatly from the traditional motherhood meme, and while it’s a decent deal for men, it’s not a walk in the park.

  37. @photospam-guy
    Funny pics.Still,don’t mess with the alpha commentators.This is serious business.

    The issue with the blog is that there’s no solution prescribed.Only enlightment.In essence,the summary of Rollo’s wordy posts is–women will fuck,you just have to be the right guy.Well,being the right guy is what’s the pivot of many men’s anxiety.Nobody taught us to be men,especially being a child of a single mum.I guess you become alpha by following your dreams,improving game and adding meat to muscle.I really don’t think I’m getting married.Knowing all too well what women do in there ‘party years’ what’s the use?
    Thanx Tommy,and sorry for the trolling in an earlier post.

    Alpha fucks,beta bucks,omega farts…

  38. “The issue with the blog is that there’s no solution prescribed.”

    I went to school to be an auto mechanic. The classes were divided into two different areas:

    1. Theory and understanding. This is where we studied how DC electricity worked, the theory behind combustion, etc. We never discussed how to fix something that was broken, we only learned about how something worked.

    2. The second class was solutions. This is where we applied our knowledge of theory to fix the vehicle.

    We never bitched in the theory class about not knowing how to fix the vehicle, because that was not the class we were in.

    Anyway,

    “Women marry for provision, protection, intimacy, to have babies.”

    Funny, I was always taught that women married for love. It was more opportunistic than that? Thanks for clarifying…lol

  39. Great article, Rollo.

    The last concept I’ve been struggling with is, while AWALT, why are some women more adept at keeping their hypergamy on a shorter leash? This article definitely added some context to my understanding.

    I found your last comment, “That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.”, particularly interesting. Given that there are a significant number of commenters, recently unplugged, in their 50’s (self included), the facts would seem to prove otherwise… it’s my perspective that men in their 50’s are (overly?) ripe for the picking. I feel no bitterness whatsoever for unplugging that this late age… in many significant, measurable ways, I feel I’m peaking now.

  40. “That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.”

    My challenge precisely, but getting there, thanks to you Rollo and the company here. Interestingly I was finally able to break a 40+ year case of oneitis after a relatively short immersion in TRM.

    @ thedeti,

    Please don’t feed the troll(s). They made a hash of the last post.

    Glenn,
    Your generosity in “serving” your fellow men here is greatly appreciated, in fact is necessary and becoming relied upon by myself and others reading in this forum. I wish I had the style, clarity of expression and spontaneous passion you bring to these discussions. I also never expected to find someone with such a depth of political and financial knowledge as you in a forum focused on gender issues. Thanks as always.

  41. @zdr01dz

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt up till now.

    Knock that shit off. It’s getting really fucking annoying.

  42. “The last concept I’ve been struggling with is, while AWALT, why are some women more adept at keeping their hypergamy on a shorter leash?”

    We don’t. We actually embrace it. Why in the world would any woman want to deny and repress the very nature of her own self? Cruel perhaps, but when men fail to respond to who we actually are, we simply offload you.

    “Funny, I was always taught that women married for love. It was more opportunistic than that? Thanks for clarifying…lol”

    Love takes a life time to grow into. Men marry for access to sex and reproduction,correct? Women marry for provision and protection so they can have babies. Outside of Christian values and virtues, it is nothing more than a simple economic and biological exchange.

  43. @ Glenn

    I think that the point of the pill is to accept the blessing of living in a flawed world that is totally contrary to the blue pill idealizations. Women and men are both flawed in their own ways. What you can do is to enjoy your path through it. You sound like a smart, hardworking guy who can do many things. I think that you still feel a need for an idealized vision whereas all that you can do is enjoy the moments. The highlight of my life is just to feel my physical body connect with my mind and feel alive. Everything else is just a footnote to that. Then, you don’t need any idealizations because this is truly enough. Everything else that flows, from work to relationships, can be then be treated as just details of the journey. Try to be more forgiving of yourself and others…..absurdity is the nature of life. Need to enjoy it.

  44. “We primarily leave men due to contempt. What inspires contempt? Perpetual learned helplessness, the same kind of helplessness that your ideology promotes.”

    Yes, there are a lot of unattractive, contempt-inducing men out there. But not because of “ideologies” promoted here. They don’t suffer from learned helplessness because of masculinity; but rather because of the blue-pill falsehoods inculcated into them. Falsehoods like “praying is sexy” and “being a good man is sexy” and “women love good men”.

    ” In an odd kind of paradox, we’re supposed to sit on our own alleged uncontrollable hypergamy and be good girls for you.”

    No. You’re supposed to recognize your hypergamous instincts and bring them to heel. You’re supposed to use those instincts to secure the best man for yourself for short term sexy and long term security. And then you’re supposed to be content with the choices you made and make the best of them. You’re supposed to lie in the beds you made for yourselves, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, until death do you part.

  45. ” . . . most women’s low interest in short term sexual relationships . . .”

    . . . serves the purpose of avoiding motherhood.

    In Classical Greece a species of plant was driven nearly to extinction because of its ability to prevent pregnancy. Which is what AF/BB predicts.

    The place you are most likely to see openly displayed baby rabies is in childless (especially if she’s had an abortion or three), post wall CC riders trying to nail down B bucks.

    Which is what AF/BB predicts in an environment where pregnancy carried to term is a choice women make.

  46. I just trudged my way through the single most nonsensical post I’ve ever read from Roosh.

    I knew he was stewing some anti-evolution post for a while now, but quite honestly I’d expect far better than hanging his denial is on one book by David Stove and constant back-referral to Darwin.

    Wow. I was ready to dissect this post with my own, but now I see it’d be a waste of time debating with a man who lacks a basic grasp of where evolution science has progressed since the time of Charles Darwin.

    Quintus Curtius has truly done a number on Roosh. It’s kind of a shame.

  47. “You’re supposed to use those instincts to secure the best man for yourself for short term sexy and long term security. And then you’re supposed to be content with the choices you made and make the best of them.”

    I did that, Deti, but I really can’t say “I” did that, actually my husband did. That is the part that so many of you cannot seem to grasp, what women are and do is somewhat irrelevant, who you are is what matters.

    To endlessly bemoan hypergamy, to relentlessly wallow in what you perceive to be biological inequality, just creates learned helplessness.

    It’s a harsh truth but everytime you say, “You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to,” it’s like handing your own power away. If you try to wait for women to do what they’re supposed to do, hell will freeze over first.

  48. Outside of Christian values and virtues, it is nothing more than a simple economic and biological exchange.

    Heh, you don’t read Dalrock much do you?

  49. Assuming that alfalfa is more mental then physical, then the notion that women fuck alfalfas for their superior genes is a stretch. We all know men who physically are dominant but emotionally are wimps. If nature trumps nurture, and these wimps evidence superior physical genes, then the notion of af/bb is not on.

    Also, if the common notion that 80% of women get fucked by the 20% alfalfa’s is true, why is not the world teeming with alfalfa’s? These genes, so highly valued, seem to be about 4/5 made up of beta genetics, which again puts the af/bb theorem in doubt.

    A good example is the Kahn. About 1/2 a percent of the men of this world now carry his genetic material (approx. 16 million). It is indeed most probable that the vast majority of these men are “beta”, so how valuable was his sperm?

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/08/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan/

    Nice thing about the article is that it mostly argues against my questions.

  50. “Heh, you don’t read Dalrock much do you?”

    Not much, no. I cannot bear to watch him pervert and distort scripture. I nearly threw up when some commentators there decided men were incapable of sin and attempted to lay all sin at the feet of women and declare themselves to be mini gods in Christ’s name. Also, Dalrock often puts red pill ideology before scripture and deletes even the most civil comments because he cannot handle even the gentlest criticism.

  51. Haha, Roosh dropped his own confirmation bias out of his pants as if he forgot to zip his fly.

    Anti-evolutionary behaviors should have been weeded out of the gene pool according to the idea of natural selection, but the more I looked around, the more I saw nothing but my own behavior, of people who were actually frightened to death about being a parent even though they were healthy and could afford to raise children. In fact, the sum of Western ideologies seem aimed to specifically halt human reproduction.

    Roosh, you’re a sex tourist, you spend your free time in places where you know you’ll find women who want sex… and you’re surprised that most of the people you meet express a desire not to have children? You literally have created a life for yourself in a modern Sodom and Gomorrah and you expect to meet people who want to reproduce good human beings?

    Jesus Christ.

  52. No one is “bemoaning” Hypergamy, insanity. If anything the Red Pill embraces the cruel realities of it and attempts (at least) to offer actionable contingencies for it – Game.

    You think it’s “bemoaning” because you’d rather it remain behind the curtain of the great and powerful Oz. That’s an issue I suggest you take up with your sisters who endorse Open Hypergamy with such zeal.

  53. insane – the hardest part of the mystical journey is taking the first step. Whence the step is taken, curtains start getting peeled back, mists come and go, and the coldness of TRUTH, is a huge shock. some men wilt on the path and stay prostate til death, others pick themselves up and continue, knowing that though TRUTH has no sympathy for anyone, it is still the only reality in the universe. Give these guys some time to come to this moment, then the real path is revealed, and all changes forever.

    From you – “It’s a harsh truth but everytime you say, “You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to,” it’s like handing your own power away. If you try to wait for women to do what they’re supposed to do, hell will freeze over first.” YES!!!

  54. “That’s an issue I suggest you take up with your sisters who endorse Open Hypergamy with such zeal.”

    Why should I? Seriously, if so many red pills are going to simply declare women to be the enemy, then game on, girls embrace your hypergamy, and let’s get about the business of shoving Western civilization off the cliff while we still can.

    Your “actionable contingencies,” are totally self serving, so I have absolutely no moral argument for why women’s should not also be the same.

  55. Roosh makes the fundamental mistake that evolution is “survival of the fittest” (not even a Darwinian quote). He even uses the term “strongest” and “fittest”.

    It’s not about strength or fitness, it’s survival of the species that’s best able to adapt to its environment. That’s what Game is, behavioral adaptation to a post-sexual revolution environment.

  56. “Give these guys some time to come to this moment, then the real path is revealed, and all changes forever.”

    You are right. I am sorry. My impatience sometimes gets the best of me.

  57. “women want men who are better (or at least equal) at the specific qualities the women most admire in themselves, or wish they had themselves, at the given time.” -Jeremy

    This is very close to a theory that I first came up with when I was 16 years old and have never seen contradicted by a real life example in the subsequent 20 years.

    Women select mates exactly like they select everything else in their life: according to how they think it enhances their identity. Not only haircuts, clothing, etc., but pretty much every purchase and everything a woman does is concerned with the identity she wants to portray at a given time. The car she drives, which store she shops at, what kind of coffee she drinks, even which toys she buys her children are all derived from how it will fit in with the identity she wants to have and portray.

    She is completely obsessed with her identity and image.

    A woman will always be attracted to and select the man who she thinks fits in with and makes her look like the identity she imagines herself to have at any given time.

    The interesting thing about this is that after creating an identity, a woman will tire of it and be attracted to a new identity for herself, so it’s constantly in flux. Fads and fashion writ large. Oftentimes, a woman sees a new man as a prospective new identity when she’s bored with her old one. This is why women often plunge full force into their new boyfriend’s hobbies. Creating a new identity is fun for them. Now, they can imagine that they are “this” type of person until that becomes stale and it’s time for another identity makeover.

  58. Rollo calls it game, I call it masculinity. But your quote above says it succinctly. We have been handing our power away and hell still has not frozen over. This is the lesson that is slowly bubbling to the surface in Men’s consciousness.

  59. Wow, Roosh lost any credibility I gave him on this one. He jumps to a ridiculous conclusion. He gives no mention, whatsoever, to the power held over human behavior by it’s evolved, and unique sense of imagination. When you add that to the mix, it’s quite clear that human evolution *still works*, but the behavioral modifications that imagination can enact are having a profound influence on who reproduces.

    The poor reproduce more because they live in a world grounded in reality, their imagination does not rule them, their instincts (hunger first) rule their lives to a much greater degree.

    The rich reproduce less, because with more to lose and lots more free time, their imagination runs rampant telling them what possible pitfalls await the decision to reproduce.

    They’ve even done experiments demonstrating EXACTLY THIS. Someone with more talent for citation, please drop the link to that experiment with rabbits (or was it hamsters) and unlimited food (but limited space) that was done.

  60. @Rollo
    “Quintus Curtius has truly done a number on Roosh. It’s kind of a shame.”

    I think you give Quintus Curtius too much credit… this is either a very public meltdown or pure marketing genius… regardless of which, it’s all on Roosh.

    At the end of the day, as @Jeremy pointed out, Roosh is just a sex tourist… smart, often insightful and a bit whack, but that’s about it.

  61. Yeah well I had Roosh pegged after reading him the first time.

    (pats hisself on the back)

  62. What inspires contempt? Perpetual learned helplessness, the same kind of helplessness that your ideology promotes.

    That contempt is due to men relying on the Blue Pill Beta Game strategies their feminization conditioning predisposes them to.

    That contempt comes from familiarity, comfort and all of the ant-seductive behaviors and ideas a man believes should earn him a woman’s unnegotiated passion.

    What the Red Pill gives men is a functional, operational awareness of the realities of his situation, and within that new awareness create a new life based on that knowledge.

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/09/29/a-new-hope/

    What’s problematic to you is that men would take that new Red Pill awareness and exclude you (women) from that new life.

    Power, real power, is the degree of control a man exercises over the direction of his life and the freedom of the choices he’s able to make. What frightens women about the Red Pill is that this awareness makes a man more powerful than a woman in this respect.

    https://therationalmale.com/2013/11/25/nursing-power/

  63. I think what a lot of guys are looking for in both Blue Pill and Red Pill is some kind of Bumper to Bumper 100,000 mile warranty that will keep their marriage intact… There isn’t one.

    This is very true.

    If you’re trying to bullet-proof the marriage, your best bet is to put yourself in the demographic that has the lowest divorce rates, be firmly in that demographic, and follow what they do — namely, have an advanced degree, preferably a professional degree (each spouse), have rather high income (each spouse at least 150-200k), get married around 30 to someone who has that education and professional/financial profile and who is SMV +/- 1, have 2 or so children and get on with things professionally, financially and parentally. Not an exciting life, but the *divorce* rate, if that’s what you’re worried about, is quite low in this cohort (below 20%) — the trick is that you have to fit the demographic, which only a few people do. And, you still need to meet the “burden of performance”, as Rollo describes it, to minimize your chances of being in the smaller part of the demo that does have its marriage explode, or at least to avoid a kind of very boring and relatively sexless marriage. Now, you still have that 15-20% risk, which is one in five or a bit less, so if you are completely risk averse, you just don’t play that game at all, but it seems to be a manageable risk for many people who fit that narrow demographic profile.

    For everyone else — well, you’re on very shaky ground at the best of times. Listen to what Rollo and others say, and act accordingly to mitigate your risk if you want to go down that path, but accept that there is no risk-free solution in the current environment.

  64. Nova, you forgot one strategy, join the Amish! I hear their divorce rate is below 10%!

    🙂

  65. @Jeremy, what’s funny is that I was expecting some attempt at Roosh refuting evo-psych and academia, but he went off on bio-evolution.

    Here I was collecting links to offer a counter to evo-psych denial. Again, wow.

  66. Listen, my old man was beta to the core outside of the house. But inside those walls, he was king. No negotiation!

    Now for most it is one long negotiation and trust me, though women can be very clever, most of them hate this game!

  67. “What frightens women about the Red Pill is that this awareness makes a man more powerful than a woman in this respect.”

    Actually Tomassi, it is not power in men that frightens women, but rather weakness. Weak men tend to confuse dominance with destruction, dominion with annihilation. Those of us you call alpha chasers are actually seeking out the most masculine, most dominant men, because they are also the ones proven to be the least dangerous to us.

    Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.

  68. Roosh will say and do whatever he needs to to keep the money flowing so that he can keep on “seducing” 3rd world 4’s.

  69. What I don’t understand is why the most adaptable species on the planet can so easily forget how important adaptability is in their daily lives, the future of their species, and their place in the universe.

  70. insane, funny. “Actually Tomassi, it is not power in men that frightens women, but rather weakness.”

    and is this not the foundation upon which game is based?

    beta = weak

    alfalfa = strong

    “Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.” think I read this one at Chateau just last night.

    🙂

  71. @all_in_chocolate,

    Women are like water. They take the form of the container you put them in. Right now they are free to pick a new vessel for them to conform to at any time. The over choice is making them miserable. But they prefer it to accepting any risk of accidentally being tied down to a less optimal container. They are far too naval gazing and narcissistic to understand the consequences of their actions as men simply react.

    And it seems women are too self absorbed to accept the blame in changing our culture. I’ve spoken in depth to several women I’ve known for roughly a decade. They all clearly know why I’m choosing to act as I am, they seem to be able to understand it, but since all women basically only care about themselves and their own children they literally beg me to remain a slave. How else are all women going to have their hypergamy party? And that’s all they care about.

    @Jeremy,

    Calhoun’s beautiful ones.

    http://io9.com/how-rats-turned-their-private-paradise-into-a-terrifyin-1687584457

  72. When I read CaveClown’s OP, I was prompted to consider my firsts, and the women for whom I was first.

    My first, well, she didn’t believe I was a virgin, as she came before I even started. What can I say? Mom was sexually liberated, and I read the books she had stashed. You know, “did some homework”. She thought I was a greasy liar about the virgin thing, and split – never saw or heard from her again. (I know, now, how/where it went awry) Mmm… I still remember how awesome she smelled. 😀

    So that’s that.

    But, the women whose virginity I took? Let’s focus on two examples:

    One was a model-quality blonde that I “dated” for a while in high school. I fucked around on her plenty, and she eventually found out. Done. Oh, the woe, when I realized that her value to me was way beyond what I had realized. In retrospect, I see that she truly “ticked all my boxes”. Unfortunately, my model was the “more, more, more” society model, so I was out for quantity and disregarded quality. Dear ol’ dad was blue pill, so he never knew to feed me the red pill, and my tools for keeping and maintaining the ultra-feminine of the feminine were lacking, as were my priorities. The next dude she laid had his priorities down, as he was some six years older, and he recognized her SMV: he put a bun in her oven and took her off the market. Ugh… I felt bad for her, as her life took an unfortunate down-turn. And, that’s not some blue-pill white knight sappy sentiment. She was an awesome chick based on the comparison to some 150+ since. She didn’t do anything negative to warrant my disregard, I simply didn’t recognize value back then, and I own it now. Oops. I didn’t “know what I was doing”. I hope she’s well, however it worked out for her.

    Another gal who offered her cherry did so out of sheer perception of my value to other women. Word got around that I was bedding… well, who knows how many she was told I had been with. We ended up FB’s for a while, until I moved away. She got married to some dude, had some kids, lost all attraction to the douche (I heard recordings of wacko-abusive shit) she was with and hit me up after a long, long time had passed. She stalked me down via the internet and sent me a message out of the blue. Being somewhat at the beginning of my red-pill evolution, I figured what the hell, and threw her some pity sex. Yikes, was she gnarly! Overweight, depressed, not getting laid… so, not for the sake of white knighting per se, but for the sake of bring some sunshine into an old friend’s life, I held my nose and gave her some vitamin D that she needed. I got off well enough, and she went wild. After some life-coaching (“You need to get away from him, otherwise your three daughters will be absolute nut-jobs when they get older.”), she lost around half her entire body weight almost instantly. It was neat to see the reversal, and she offered more of her vagina in thanks. She finalized her divorce after re-establishing some healthy self-esteem, and she hit the clubs to ride the carousel. I caught a whiff of that “mixing of sperm in her vag” and ended our FB situation. She was “back in the game”, and I was happy for cheering up an old friend. “Go get ’em, tiger.” We parted ways on friendly terms.
    “Your life is going in another direction than mine: you’ve got kids and I don’t.”

    The second example prompts me to me wonder about the first example, sometimes. I find myself wondering: “If she ever stalks me down, I wonder if I would hit it?” I know from conversations with the second chick that she had a vision of me in her head that I actually EXCEEDED in real life when she decided to enact her fantasy: hence the panic to lose weight and potentially “retain me” the second time around. Thanks Red-Pill?

    I had a lot of bad karma following me for a long time: in my youth I was a pussy pirate of sorts. I looted and plundered the booty, essentially stealing the pussy, because I was good at it, naturally. It took a long time to recognize how/why I felt terribly about my past: I had no regard for women as human beings and spent my youth perpetually hate-fucking women. As a result, I confused a lot of women, and that bothers me. My attitude was crap. Instead of stealing pussy, I could have went about it on different terms. It could’ve been given to me, in a cooperative mode, and not in an adversarial mode.

    Don’t get me wrong: I’ve never, ever, came even close in any way to “rape”. That’s not what I mean by “stealing”; I mean that I was a fraud. I was conning women into bed with the smooth shit they wanted to hear, regardless of if I meant it: ends justifies means. That’s how I operated until I found a red pill via a random internet search. Now I see that the adversaries I was with compelled me to be adversarial in return. Now I see that I didn’t do a good job of qualifying. Now I see that I had my own self-esteem issues back then, and “scoring” with women gave me validation and peer status in a culture of “more, more, more”.

    The reason I feel bad about my sexual past is based on my experience. I was cast into the purgatory of the processed-meat-market, and dwelled there sifting through scummers for what seemed like an eternity of scary exposures. Of course one would be left to consider karma, and prompted to do some troubleshooting.

    Empathy.

    I am naturally great at it, the tool has been in my toolbox since I was a little kid, I just never applied it. Looking back at all the women I’ve touched, I can’t help but to regret being adversarial. But, there is solace to be had in the fact that I did eventually learn from my experience, and became the real deal instead of a faker. Since the switch, I think about women being cast into the purgatory of the “party girl” years. I’m fairly positive that women are under the same negative influences that men are, and are equally led to be under the same “consumption” spell.

    Women, just as men, think “there is always something else” if they don’t like their situation. But, just as men, after they break up with whatever they are unhappy with, don’t qualify a next potential, and they merely hit the streets in search of some strange: more, not better. “Maybe I’ll luck-out and land a winner.” It’s a reactionary mode, not a proactive mode. As a result, the party years are an endless emotionally-centered cock carousel, where it never occurs to women that they are perpetuating their own unhappiness, steered by the inputs of media/marketing and peers deluded by the same media/marketing. More, more, more. Never “enough” or “better” or “best”. We (men and women) throw away winning lottery tickets because the next lottery drawing might land us a higher jackpot: despite the bird in your hand, there are two in the bush.

    It’s easy to empathize with women in that regard. They rarely are critical of themselves, they only look at men and point the finger. (And men, vice-versa, it’s the core of “battle-of-the-sexes”) Since women are encouraged (trained, indoctrinated) to pass off any-and-all negativity onto the big, bad men of their lives, the adversarial/cooperative dynamic never occurs to them. So, their default adversarial programming stands untested. Then, finally, when they hit the wall or have a kid, they look back over their lives and realities: whoops, I could’ve been cooperative with that cooperative guy, who was truly awesome, way, way back in high school and I wouldn’t be this way, in this situation, now. It would’ve all went another way.

    Women and men have both been trained to emulate the same negative consumption model of “more is better”. We all know that if you look for faults, you’ll eventually find them. So, despite having “enough”, we remain unsatisfied, because we hold up our partners to the gauge of movie stars and hear “you can do better”. Can you? Maybe. Should you? Well…

    I’ve come to a place where I go about “women” with the same overall philosophy as I do with hiking in nature: leave them better off than I found them. Not in a “save-a-ho” sense, but in a “hippocratic oath” “do no harm” sense. It’s the essence of being cooperative. Instead of trying to extract something from who I’m with, I try to make them better (or, at least bounce them off my bedroom walls in ecstasy). In by doing so, I win: they get better, and I get a better, happier woman. I’m not saying that one should “fix” “broken” chicks, or that women should “fix” any dudes, I’m merely saying that both men and women could stand to be more helpful to each other and less harmful.

    The “torch” that both men and women carry for their “firsts” is symbolic of the pain which comes with the realization that you were, on some level, responsible for the failure of that relationship. Otherwise, that wouldn’t be your “one that got away”, you wouldn’t carry a torch of something you didn’t regret. I carry a couple torches, many, in fact, as I regret some things I’ve done, since I knew no better. But the picture Rollo used for this post is fantastic, as the reflection of yourself holding a torch is a constant reminder that you fucked it up, not they. The flame of the torch is symbolic of the pain and burn of that understanding. Whether or not you are cast into the processed-meat-market purgatory depends on how you reflect on yourself, how you reconcile and address the mistakes you’ve made, and how you effectively internalize what changes you need to make. I’m not 100% convinced that women are naturally wired to automatically want “party girl years” for the AF/BB hypergamy. I think that it’s more a matter of whether or not women had a healthy model given to them to emulate, or at least some training to resist the marketing agendas that would detract from a healthy model. Just as dudes need to take a red-pill, women do too, anymore.

    To be clear, I understand the AF/BB hypergamy, but I’m not fully convinced it’s entirely “nature”, and automatic. I’m pretty sure there is more “nurture” than we give weight to. There are many “pied pipers” that I’ve observed over my lifetime, here’s one of the biggest destroyers of women of my generation:

    Note the insertion of “I’ll cook diner tonight!” …terrible “entitlement” bastardization of Peggy Lee’s awesome, positive, female celebratory “I’m a woman” song into a FI theme song. Instead of raising women up into being desirable superwomen, it flips-the-script to men needing to perform for any ol’ chick who wears Enjoli. All you gotta do is buy yourself some Enjoli, and PRESTO! Men wear the apron! Where, Peggy Lee’s song lists a whole host of awesome qualities of a super women, most modern men will never get a chance to experience that quality of woman. Feel free to be horrified by the actual, male cooperative lyrics:

    Dammit! I want a woman.
    Anyone know where I can find one anymore?
    ‘Cuz, I’ve never met one that could even come CLOSE to what Peggy Lee described.

    Notice how she sounded quite happy, and proud of being good at all she outlined? Cooking, cleaning, caring…

    Hmm… *sigh*

  73. “Yeah, not so much…”

    Actually yes, Tomassi. The felons, thugs and assorted yahoos are often much safer for us to be around then the depressed and rage driven betas. Women also get broken and can easily get those attraction signals crossed, hence all the fan mail Ted Bundy used to get.

    Ironically it is often men that do not seem to recognize dominance in other men. Often your own pride is so offended by the idea of her chasing what you perceive to be as less worthy, that you weave elaborate theories around it to protect and defend your own egos.

  74. As for Roosh, well …. I haven’t read every word of it (perhaps I will if I have more time this evening), but at first blush it appears that he has at least overlooked the reality that technology which permits the separation of sex and reproduction in a reliable way has opened new possibilities for human sexual expression in ways that are reliably not fecund, but that this, in and of itself, does not negate the underlying reasons for the sex drives which are being sated in this environment. That is, the sex drive is based on evolutionary factors which favor the most effective reproduction — that hasn’t changed. All that has changed is that we have figured out how to separate the satiation of these drives from the actual reproductive punchline — the “with whom we wish to have sex” issue has certainly not changed very much in toto. The sex drive is still there, and hasn’t gone away — nor has it changed fundamentally in what its objects are. We have simply given ourselves the ability to avoid the natural consequences of sex unless we specifically want those consequences to ensue. I do not see how this undermines evolution, evo-psych or the red pill.

  75. “The 300 ladies in the Anders Breivik all-girl fan club disagree with you.”

    Not at all. Ironically Vox Day recognized it too and wrote a fan post of his very own to Anders Breivik. Like many weak men however, he obviously confused dominance with destruction, as does VD and the women who chase Breivik. It’s easy to appear dominant on the outside, but to be pathertic, weak and broken on the inside.

  76. Rollo – “The 300 ladies in the Anders Breivik all-girl fan club disagree with you.”

    sorry dude, that’s the old exception proving the rule thing.

  77. @insanitybytes, you wrote that women marry primarily for security and children, and divorce primarily due to contempt. I completely agree with you thus far. However, your description of contempt being due to learned helplessness is where I disagree with you.

    Contempt is a curious emotion – when we hold someone in contempt, we are simultaneously dismissive of them and also angry at them. We feel that the other person’s feelings are beneath our notice. Why would a woman be so dismissive of her husband? Because she believes her priorities are more mature/correct than his, and therefore that he should listen to her rather than to himself. Further, that the fact that his opinions differ from hers is even more infuriating, because she wants him to be the leader of the relationship, and can’t trust him to lead if he would lead her in a direction she doesn’t already want to go. Hence the anger 🙂

    As I wrote above, women are attracted to men who exhibit the traits/behaviors that women most value in themselves or wish they had at the given time. They consider this to be an indicator of compatibility. Further, hypergamy dictates that women want men who are BETTER than they are at these traits, so that the men can lead. But once the woman’s priorities change, the man will no longer be better than her at the traits she most values in herself, and she will no longer trust his leadership. She will feel the need to be the leader in the relationship, and will hold her husband in contempt because HE DID NOT CHANGE THE WAY SHE DID.

    I do not take this to learn helplessness. I take it to learn to expect priority shifts, and to predict them based on my knowledge of my spouse and my knowledge of her personality. With a modicum of foresight and effort, a man can keep up with priority shifts – if he feels it is worth the effort.

  78. Insanity:

    “it is not power in men that frightens women, but rather weakness. Weak men tend to confuse dominance with destruction, dominion with annihilation. Those of us you call alpha chasers are actually seeking out the most masculine, most dominant men, because they are also the ones proven to be the least dangerous to us.

    “Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.”

    Essentially what you want is for the top, most attractive, most powerful, most dominant and violent 20% of men to marry and breed, and for the remaining 80% to go away and never be heard from again.

    Don’t worry. Slowly but surely, you’re getting your wish.

  79. DG, …a woman being a virgin is airtight protection from reality. It isn’t. In fact, there are a few guys in the ‘sphere who married virgins only to get bounced.

    The focus should be morality, not virginity specifically. Of course the past is no guarantee of the future with morality. Judas, anyone?

    DG, A woman is always a woman, no matter her N-count. Female nature is as inescapable as death and taxes.

    If a woman intends a natural number of children in the context of traditional marriage, her true “nature” makes her less likely to blow things up. The real issue is lack of children and lack of tribe. The average (non-immigrant) American has a FTR = 1.8 (extinction rate). Any healthy woman should freak out. Her and her tribe are dying out.

    Find me a healthy woman, married young to a man she’s planning to have a natural number of children with (say 5-10). She’s not fighting her nature here. Fertility is as powerful for women as death and taxes, and each childbirth is a complete hormonal bath, recharging her for familial and married life.

    Sheese, all this was predicted nearly 50 years ago with the advent of chemical birth control. The consequences are right on schedule. Yawn. I’m just amazed women are as normal as they are today.

  80. OH, wow.

    I just watched the Enjoli commercial again. The broad holds up a fist full of cash when the song says “bring home the bacon”. Money = Bacon?

    This ties PERFECTLY into the “substitution of money for needs” dynamic I’ve been tripping on.

    I also heard: ‘Ladies, have him buy you some Enjoli…”

    Why? Don’t you have a fist full of bacon to buy your own with?

    We’re all screwed ever since.
    *insert pac-man dying sound here*

  81. @Glen,

    We need to create strong male bonds so we can use our male friendships to find the fulfillment women promise but completely fail to deliver. I’ve known my oldest friend for 28 years. Women are afraid of our friendship and manginas have worked with them to shame us. Hearing about how we’re gay, as is the typical shaming tactic women have used to try to destroy our bond, is met with agree and amplify.

    His parents won’t stop trying to get him to marry and have kids. They are just too old to understand how feral women are. Women don’t want to get married. They want to find a guy whose money they can steal. They aren’t offering us anything. Occasional access to their used up vaginas isn’t going to cut it. We want children that the woman can’t take away at any time for any or no reason. And turn us into slaves in the process.

    Do you have some good guy friends? Just being able to have open real discussions with another guy is so freeing. I discovered last year when I let some red pill vocabulary drop that he’s also a subscriber. Our conversations are much like the red pill sub now. It’s very freeing to be able to openly discuss the insanity women have created being the political majority.

    I’ve been serving as a boy scout assistant through my church and found some fulfillment through that. But my bishop has requested that I stop attending because I’m teaching the boys to not get married. I’m not going to lie to them and help brainwash them. Most of them are already being raised by single mothers.

    Though they can’t really replace me. The male attendance at church is very low. The only men there are just worthless betas. We’re just running out of any cultural capital to keep this joke running.

  82. Roosh needs to read up on “red queen” theory before his next evolution piece.

    The world seeks balance, the red queen theory explains how evolution is the mechanism to do that.

    If you want to paint with a broad stroke, red queen also perfectly explains how the red pill and game came to be. Seeking balance against the evils of feminism, blue pill et al, and the apparent scourge that is birth control.

    Me thinks I will stay away from the neomasculine flavored kool-aid.

  83. “It’s a harsh truth but everytime you say, “You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to,” it’s like handing your own power away. If you try to wait for women to do what they’re supposed to do, hell will freeze over first.”
    _________
    Straight from the horse’s mouth I – talking and reaching agreements with females is impossible.
    Everyone who did his homeworks knows that, but thanks for emphasizing it again.
    __________
    “Weak men tend to confuse dominance with destruction, dominion with annihilation. Those of us you call alpha chasers are actually seeking out the most masculine, most dominant men, because they are also the ones proven to be the least dangerous to us.

    Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.”
    _________
    Straight from the horse’s mouth I I – in the “mind” of females, behaviour is NOT DEPENDANT ON WHAT HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE but on what sexual value a man has.
    True insanity form a civilzed point of view.

    The conclusion remains the same:
    – use game to indirectly force women to do what they are supposed to – the don’t even see that as “focring”, but rationalize it as positive strength/alpha … hilarious 😀
    – wait & prepare for the right circumstances to arise (hopefully during our lifetime) when females are reduced to what they are supposed to be.

    Minor footnote:
    I actually agree.
    Yes please, let’s push what is left of “western civilzation” (as defined by TODAY) down the cliff…by impreganting the few remaing worthwhile women, treating the rest as what they are and educate our children explicitly against what “western society” (the today-version) stands for – first and foremost: Equality, feminism, what has become of the “human rights”.

    ISIS or national socialism is more preferential (or really much more preferential) to the survival of the western species of humans (or really any of the diverse species of humans) than the continuation of a culture that produces ever more “insanitybytes22”.

  84. @stringofcoins

    Women are a sorry replacement for male friendships, that’s for sure. It is exceptionally difficult to find men that share my point of views though. I assume most men have that problem?

    Most men are blue pill and are searching for their soul mate, or have already found said soul mate and she won’t let him come out and play anymore… “I’ve gotta ask the boss”

    Even the most alpha player I know (over 150 notches) pines for the “one that got away”

    Would you believe it was his first notch that he pines over???? lol

  85. Krum calls her out as a chick shortly after that comment.

    “Case Closed” he says. Perfect.

    Funny shit.

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