Alpha Tells

Alpha Tells

For as long as I’ve been writing in the manosphere, the definition of “what is Alpha?” has been the number one point of contention I’ve had to state and restate the most often. I’m not going to rehash this now as I have several posts on the nature of Alpha already linked in the sidebar, so if you’re looking for my take on Alpha that’s where to find it.

However, to lead in to today’s post I need to address the basis of what I believe are the most common misunderstandings about the term Alpha.

Well before the inception of this blog, in the early beginnings of what would evolve into the manosphere there was a need of terminology to describe the more abstract concepts developing in the ‘community’. Some of these analogies and terms are still with the manosphere today, others have morphed into more useful abstractions; Alpha Widows, Hypergamy (in its true nature), the Feminine Imperative, even Red Pill awareness are all examples of established terms or analogies for understood abstractions. Among these are also the concepts of a man being Alpha and Beta.

From The Unbearable Triteness of Hating at CH:

5. Etymology Hate

Hater: Your definition of an alpha male is false. In the animal kingdom, the alpha male is leader of the pack, not a cad/badboy/jerk who pumps and dumps women.

Isn’t it just like a nerd to get hysterical over the appropriation of a narrow-sense scientific term to conveniently illustrate broader truths about men and women.

One of the most common disconnects men encounter with the Red Pill for the first time is equating the term Alpha with its usage in describing the mating habits of Lions, Wolves or Silver Back Gorillas. It’s easy to ridicule or simply dismiss a valid, but uncomfortable, Red Pill truth when you’re simplistically comfortable in defining ‘Alpha Male’  in literal etymological terms.

This is the first resistance blue pill men claim they have with the Red Pill. They have no problem understanding and using abstractions for blue pill concepts they themselves are ego-invested in, but challenge that belief-paradigm with uncomfortable red pill truths and their first resort is to obstinately define Alpha (as well as Hypergamy) in as narrow, binary and literal a sense as they can muster.

“Get in Touch with Your Feminine Beta Side”

The next most common misunderstanding comes from conflating the abstractions of Alpha and Beta with masculine and feminine traits. In this (often deliberate) misdirection, the concepts of being Alpha or Beta become synonymous with being masculine or feminine. This is the personal basis of Alpha and Beta many Purple Pill advocates (really blue pill apologists) comfortably redefine for themselves, to suit themselves.

This purple pill conflation is really just a comforting return the the curse of Jung – anima & animus – if the complete man is an even mix of Alpha and Beta, masculine and feminine, then all the worst aspects of his “betaness” can’t be all bad, and he reinterprets what really amounts to a complete androgyny as “being the best balance”.

Unfortunately, and as blue pill chumps will later attest, the feminine expects to find its paired balance in the masculine, not an equalist idealization of both in the same man. Thus women, on a limbic level, expect men to be Men.

This one of the missives of an equalitarian mindset; that an individualized, egalitarian balance of masculine and feminine aspects in two independent people should replace the natural complementary interdependence of masculine and feminine attributes in a paired balance that humans evolved into.

What purple pill temperance really equates to is a 21st century return to the 20th century feminized meme “men need to get in touch with their feminine sides”… or else risk feminine rejection. 60+ years of post sexual revolution social engineering has put the lie to what an abject failure this concept has been.

What they fail to grasp is that an Alpha mindset is not definitively associated with masculine attributes. There are plenty of high-functioning, masculine men we would characterize as Alpha based on our perception of them in many aspects of life, who nonetheless are abject supplicating Betas with regard to how they interact with, and defer to women.

Whether that disconnect is due to a learned, Beta deference to the feminine (White Knighting), some internalized fear of rejection, or just a natural predisposition to be so with women, isn’t the issue; what matters is that the abstraction of Alpha isn’t an absolute definitive association with the masculine.

Likewise, Beta attributes are neither inherently feminine. As has been discussed ad infinitum in the manosphere, 80%+ of modern men have been conditioned (or otherwise) to exemplify and promote a feminine-primary, supportive Beta role for themselves and as many other men they can convince to identify more with the feminine.

The Beta mindset isn’t so much one of adopting a feminine mindset as it is a deference to, and the support of, a feminine-primary worldview.

The reason purple pill (watered down red pill) ideology wants to make the association of Alpha = Masculine, Beta = Feminine is because the “get in touch with your feminine side” Beta attributes they possess in spades can be more easily characterized as “really” being Alpha if it helps make him the more androgynously acceptable male he mistakenly believes women are attracted to (if not directly aroused by).

Alpha Tells

From jf12:

The sexual alphaness of a male towards a female is exhibited by her wanting to please him, and the sexual betaness of a male is exhibited by him needing to please her. A man’s alphaness obviously and definitionally does not cause her to more require him to please her (i.e. alphaness does not rub off like that). And also, betaness is not transferrable, no matter how much we betas wish that our women-pleasing caused women to want to please us.

Moreover, the social dominance of a male in a male hierarchy is barely correlated with his sexual alphaness, and certainly not causal. There are far too many counterexamples, such as Bill Gates, Napoleon Bonaparte, Horatio Nelson, and the list is very very long.

However, and this is a key sociologically empirical point, the social dominance of a *female* human (the best kind!) in a *female* human hierarchy is extremely correlated, in this precise way: A woman to whom women cater to will 99.9% of the time demand to be catered to by her man. This is why women believe man-pleasing women (I admit there are some) are “lesser”. It is also why men (e.g. me) who have tended to be mated to females who are socially dominant in a female hierarchy are invariably betas. It’s simply false that female-dominant women tend to choose men who demand pleasing.

What critics of an Alpha/Beta dichotomy conveniently sweep under the conversational carpet is that the dichotomy they want to debate only exists in their convenient, personal interpretations of Alpha or Beta mean to them.

From a male perspective we can endlessly debate (from our own personal biases) what we believe constitutes an Alpha state (remember, an abstract term, stay with me here) and the expectations of which we think women should respond to according to those expectation. But it’s women’s instinctive behaviors around Alpha men (or men they contextually perceive so) that provide us with the tells as to how she perceives a man’s Alpha or Beta status.

For as much as we believe women should respond to our definition of Alpha – and despite how women will explain they agree with those self-prescribed definitions – as always, it is their behaviors when in the presence of, or in a relationship with men they perceive as being Alpha (or of higher sexual market value than themselves if you prefer) that they bely their true, instinctual recognitions of Alpha.

In a social environment where men are conditioned to believe that women are as equal, rational agents as men, the belief men put their faith into is that women will appreciate their intrinsic qualities and base their sexual selectivity upon a man’s virtue, bearing, intelligence, humor, and any number of attractive intrinsic qualities. However, the truth of what women base their sexual selectivity upon (arousal) is far more evident in their instinctual, unconditioned behavior when around Alpha men – as well as men’s instinctual sensitivity to that behavior.

There are many examples of this Alpha reactive behavior. I’ll make an attempt to illustrate a few of them here, but I expect there’ll be many more offered in the comment thread an I’ll encourage a discussion of the behaviors that serve as Alpha tells. Rossy/Heartiste has made a sport with his ongoing “spot the Alpha” series of posts in which he analyzes a picture or video of a woman’s reaction to a man who she is obviously has an Alpha interest in as her body language and subcommunications suggest. (h/t to CH for today’s image)

The common criticism of these images is that red pill men would read too much into these displays, but the underlying message in that criticism is rooted in understanding and willfully ignoring what our instinctual perceptions of them are. We know Alpha when we see it, but need an explanation to protect our own ego’s Alpha assessment of ourselves.

The Real Selection

For all the delighted ego ’empowerment’ of women boasting they are the sexual selectors in this life, there is still a nervous uncertainty about being found acceptable themselves to an Alpha lover of higher SMV status than they might otherwise merit. This is where the illusions of an assortive mating model break down for women. If feminine-primary sexual selection were the only element to mating there would be no need for the behaviors women are subject to in seeking the approval from men they perceive as Alpha.

There’s a look, an attitude and a presence women will give to Men for whom they have a natural deference to. I don’t just mean blatant sexual subcommunications like casually biting her lower lip, or the hair twirling that’s almost cliché now. It goes beyond the sexual into a kind of meta-attraction/arousal. While the sexual urgency for an Alpha is strong and manifests in a woman’s forwardness toward him, the meta-attraction is both of submission and a subconscious desire for his approval of her.

Men predisposed to a Beta mindset also display many of these same behavioral cues with the women they hope will appreciate them in the same fashion a woman does for a Man that her hindbrain instinctually knows is of a higher SMV. In Beta men we see these behaviors as evidence of “clinginess” or “neediness” and is an identifiable Beta tell; but in women this natural and unprovoked leaning in to a Man, this desire to submit for his approval, is a positive indicator of Alpha attraction.

This is why, as third party observers, we instinctually find such behavior in men distasteful; we subliminally sense a complementary imbalance between the man and woman.

When a woman makes an unforced effort to please a man with subtle words, unintentional wide-eyed contact, and body positioning / posture you’re dealing with a woman who is compelled to defer to you as Alpha.

That isn’t to say this can’t be faked. In fact strippers, good ones at least, are not just physically arousing, or more sexualized, but are in tune with the deficit most men feel when it comes to this Alpha deference. Beyond just the sexual aspect, one thing that makes strippers so enticing and seductive is that the majority of men are simply unused to the fawning affections and Alpha interest (albeit feigned) of any woman, much less an attractive one.

This is also one reason men become so prone to ONEitis both inside and outside this contrived, transactional, sort of attraction. Men are the True Romantics, they want to believe a woman’s sincerity in her Alpha deference to him.

Does the girl you’re interested in come to you, or do you go to her?

I’ve emphasized the importance of establishing and maintaining Frame for years now, but I sometimes wonder if the importance of holding Frame isn’t lost on most men.

To an equalist mindset this Frame establishment seems like I’m advocating men be domineers of their relationships and a man rely on some dark manipulative psychology to enforce his will in that relationship. That’s not what I’m suggesting for the simple reason that it’s too effort consuming, and genuine desire is unsustainable within that constant effort. Maintaining Frame demands a voluntary, uncoerced, desired compliance.

What I’m suggesting is that men simply not invest themselves in women whose Alpha interest in them is mitigated by doubt or an obvious SMV imbalance. This is difficult for most men as it conflicts with our want for an idealized romance with a woman – a want for a love that requires a mutual definition with a woman lacking the capacity to realize this with him. And it’s within that idealized desire men lose Frame and excuse the behaviors of Alpha deference.

The Medium IS the Message

As I’ve written in the past, the Medium IS the Message with women. On some level of consciousness men instinctually understand their relative status with a woman based on the behaviors she directs toward him.

Is she affectionate without being prompted or only when circumstance makes your comfort needed for her?

Is Amused Mastery an easy default for you, or does she resist even playful attempts at it?

Does she initiate sex with you, or is your provocation only ever the precursor to sex?

Is sex even a priority for her (with you)?

Does she make efforts to make things special for you (you both) or is your relationship one of her grading your efforts in qualifying for her Alpha approval of you?

What most guys think are ‘mixed messages’ or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (for whatever reason) to make an accurate interpretation of why she’s behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl that he’d rather make concessions for her behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it’s far easier to call it ‘mixed messages’ or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it’s simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. A woman that has a high interest level in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will shit test, and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable when you consider the context in which they’re delivered.

Are you making psychological concessions with a woman who’s never displayed an Alpha deference to you?

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bbb
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Whether one is alpha is situational. If one is perceived as 1 to 2 levels superior (in some combination of looks, wealth, and game), outcome indifferent, and replete with apparent options, one is (for the moment, at least) an alpha.

jf12
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jf12

“In Beta men we see these behaviors as evidence of “clinginess” or “neediness” and is an identifiable Beta tell; but in women this natural and unprovoked leaning in to a Man, this desire to submit for his approval, is a positive indicator of Alpha attraction.”

Probably the saddest aspect of the relationship between the sexes is that women do not repond properly to the Golden Rule: a man treating a woman like he wants to be treated, does not work.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Every man reading this post should do a tally of the Alpha Tells exhibited on an *ongoing* basis in his relationship, compared to the Beta Tells. Don’t be scared of being truthful to yourself. I’m at least 90%/10% beta/alpha in my relationship, probably more like 70%/30% to random women. Every woman reading this post should cry all night for shame.

LiveFearless
Guest
jf12
Guest
jf12

In Yohami’s latest, he conflates being (sexual) Alpha with being (sexual)Masculine, e.g. “In other words it’s OK if a woman [is] like a man. A man who [is] like a man is still a problem.” In all of the successful trials of the female libido drugs that will be on the market soon, notably Lybrido and Bremelanotide, the women’s vastly increased desire for sex was accompanied by their vastly increased treating of their husbands as if their husbands were Alpha males: doing things for them, bringing them food offerings, grooming them/ rubbing their feet / scratching their back. This is… Read more »

LiveFearless
Guest

Worth reading again, then again… and, again:

In a social environment where men are conditioned to believe that women are as equal, rational agents as men, the belief men put their faith into is that women will appreciate their intrinsic qualities and base their sexual selectivity upon a man’s virtue, bearing, intelligence, humor, and any number of attractive intrinsic qualities. However, the truth of what women base their sexual selectivity upon (arousal) is far more evident in their instinctual, unconditioned behavior when around Alpha men – as well as men’s instinctual sensitivity to that behavior. ~Rollo Tomassi

BC
Guest
BC

As bbb writes above, alpha is situational. A person who is alpha in one relationship may be completely beta in another. Rollo’s Cardinal Rule of Relationships: “In any relationship, whether romantic, personal, business or familial, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.” In every relationship there is a dom(inant) and a sub(missive). Therefore, one should ask oneself honestly: “Am I more afraid of losing the other person, or are they afraid of losing me?” The sexual alphaness of a male towards a female is exhibited by her wanting to please him, and… Read more »

Bango Tango
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Bango Tango

What I’m suggesting is that men simply not invest themselves in women whose Alpha interest in them is mitigated by doubt or an obvious SMV imbalance. This is difficult for most men as it conflicts with our want for an idealized romance with a woman – a want for a love that requires a mutual definition with a woman lacking the capacity to realize this with him. And it’s within that idealized desire men lose Frame and excuse the behaviors of Alpha deference. This is the most helpful “game” advice that can be given to men. They just need to recognize and… Read more »

Carlos
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Carlos

I have read the book, “The Laws of Seduction”, which you recommend that we all read. Many, if not most, of the archetypical male seducers detailed in the book are clearly described as having a mix of masculine and feminine qualities, which the books says helped make those men more attractive to women. How does that square with what you are saying in this post?

Tinder Master
Guest
Tinder Master

I believe it was you Rollo that said something along the lines of, “Alpha is a mind-state and not a demographic.” I personally disagree with this. I might sound harsh here to some but hear me out on this. Alpha is, for the most part, instinctive. Men can become aware to red pill knowledge and apply game to its fullest extent, but most men will not reach “alphadom” in the purest sense of the word. This is because a girl knows alpha as soon as she sees it and she feels it viscerally deep inside her id. Her id cannot… Read more »

BC
Guest
BC

I have read the book, “The Laws of Seduction”, which you recommend that we all read. Many, if not most, of the archetypical male seducers detailed in the book are clearly described as having a mix of masculine and feminine qualities, which the books says helped make those men more attractive to women. How does that square with what you are saying in this post? Because it is the ratio (which implies a significant amount of alpha) that counts. Beta (comfort, provision, etc.) itself is not repulsive; lack of alpha is repulsive. All the betas trying to convince themselves and… Read more »

walawala
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walawala

Just to add to this. In my mind sometimes I’m like totally panicking but when I see photos of me with a girl–maybe a selfie or something at a party—I look cool.

Alpha is a state of mind. If I believe that I can do something, my chances of success are higher than if I’m fretting over it.

Genghis Can
Guest
Genghis Can

hey Tinder Master. do you have a blog where I can read more of your stuff? based on my own experience, I completely agree with your take on the matter

sfcton
Guest

Why is the alpha lion king of his pride? Because he killed the mother fucker who had the pride before him and he’ll kill whoever tries to take his bitches. That isn’t “leadership” its domination; dominating males and females while keeping his belly full and his dick wet. I reckon blue pill people are as unhappy with that bit of reality as they are with the term alpha being applied to men

M Simon
Guest

“the meta-attraction is … submission” There is the key. The first mate is one of those “leader of the pack” women. But she never found happiness mastering or trying to master me. What makes her happy is submission. It has taken a while. But she is getting used to it. What helps is women – out of the blue – coming on to me. It naturally makes her want to submit. To please me more than the new woman. I remind her of the “other women” all the time. It keeps her submissive and the connection between us clean rather… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

Tinder Master November 3rd, 2014 at 1:21 am I dunno. When I was young I didn’t just have trouble with girls. I was shunned by them. Then my first girlfriend taught me the rudiments of Game (back in ’62) and as I got better at it I was off to the races. Maybe I just brought out my inner alpha. Or maybe I learned to be alpha. But what ever it was I certainly didn’t start out that way. I don’t think that in all cases it is intrinsic. Or that you can’t become what you want to be. Of… Read more »

Tilikum
Guest

@sfcton The “bro” you just described is, to me, my most interesting target. MY challenge. Some yoked up, tatted up gym rat with a weakness of mind is almost more fun and intellectually entertaining to game (non-sexually) than his girl is. If alpha is the guy you described (the guy who is banging a beta’s girls) then I’m the guy banging his. (well, sometimes….most typical meatheads wearing Affliction or American Fighter or whatever bro-fashion is in now have nasty high T females…bleh.) I don’t really even care if they find out, they are so shocked…can’t and won’t do shit. When… Read more »

Bango Tango
Guest
Bango Tango

@Tinder man. I’m betting you’re a good looking guy. But wait looks don’t matter to women as much according to CH! NOT. Looks have always mattered more to women then men when when it comes to just purely sex and less when it comes to commitment. With men it is the reverse, looks matter less when it comes to just sex but matter more when it comes to commitment. CH promptly deleted my posts when I pointed this out on his blog. Scared of this truth no doubt as he falls on his shiv.

vinay3543
Guest

Another critical point on the whole “Alpha/Beta – what makes him either?” subject is how not to be fooled on perception or first glance. What I mean by this is that many people will see the typical beefcake gym guy with tattoos, and automatically assume he is an Alpha male because of this image. Then you will see him act with poor body language, an inability to articulate and supplication (even if in vain attempt to conceal) when around women. A high status man working as a director may portray an Alpha reputation due to his power and leadership qualities… Read more »

Thoroughbred
Guest
Thoroughbred

@sfcton…. Her: “So what do you do?” Him: “I dominate males and females while keeping my belly full and my dick wet.” With proper frame that could be a killer line. @MSimon… Dread is absolutely key in any LTR. Just yesterday at the lake, fair looking (and married) little Chilean gal was blatantly flirting with me right in front of my wife and her beta husband – a very good looking guy, but shy and reserved. She’s Teasing, touching, sexualizing convo. Telling me how amazing I look for my age – I’m 50, etc. etc. This morning wife asks me… Read more »

Tilikum
Guest

@ vinay I’ll even go one further. Smart money in 2014 is to stay OUT of the gym. I am a big guy at 6’2 and 255, and even though I worked up to benching 345, I have cut all training to 2 times a month and am actively cutting everything (including muscle) to 215 or lower. A. My mind is stronger than my body will ever be. That was the real goal. B. I’m getting older and at almost 40, even for the 20 year olds you can be too perfect. Had a TON (well, 6 which is more… Read more »

sfcton
Guest

LOL @ the upper class and tv

jf12
Guest
jf12

Thoroughbred mentions that “I used to become very uncomfortable with women flirting with me either in my wife’s presence or not. At the time I rationalized it as betrayal.” This is, scientifically, a side effect of oxytocin on the male brain: a sufficiently pair-bonded *man* views other women as threats to the relationship. In contrast a pair-bonded woman feels that other women cannot be threats, because Love. Because women are this way, Dread is the only effective tool, even though a man in love cannot effectively use Dread (this is my big disagreement with married Game).

jeremy
Guest
jeremy

Rollo, you wrote: “There are plenty of high-functioning, masculine men we would characterize as Alpha based on our perception of them in many aspects of life, who nonetheless are abject supplicating Betas with regard to how they interact with, and defer to women.” This is, IMO, because of the very difficulty about which you are writing – how to define alpha. And although I agree with your discussion about “tells”, those tells are the effect rather than the cause. My suggestion (which I have made elsewhere on other blogs, and won’t belabor here) is to view the concept of alpha… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Ton wins. What makes a woman act right is *visceral* stuff indeed, e.g. feeling as if her guts might be ripped out if she acts wrong.

It’s not my fault.

jf12
Guest
jf12

I wonder how the stats here have changed on female lurkers (many?) compared to female commenters (zero) since I’ve gotten all jacked up here.

jf12
Guest
jf12

OT, asking details about sexual assault apparently constitutes “re-victimization”.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/us-military-sexual-assault-survey-condemned-invasive-questions-1472676

As someone mentioned elsewhere, soon it will be a crime to offer a defense to an accusation.

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

Still trying to decode the header pic. So is it that the top guy is Alpha and the babyfaced pudgy kid is Beta? He’s leaning out and upright, and his squeeze is cuddling childlike up to him,whereas matey on the bottom step has got it just about all ass-backwards. Top guy is a bit more hi-T/ Don Draperish and is looking a tiny bit pissed-off, one hand dangling nonchalantly like he’s not all that bothered. Soft lad is crawling into his girl like she was his mommy and she’s looking, well, like the cool guy, more than a bit disinterested/asleep/drunk… Read more »

jimmythesaint
Guest
jimmythesaint

@rollo
Have you seen this video?

im just going to leave this here well worth a view @ 3m.21s

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Tam, re: continuing your photo analysis. The socially dominant babe “Babe” with the trousers has, as per *usual* NOT unusual, chosen the beta Timmy more for his rear-end-tickling skills than his trust fund. As a man who is unfortunately more clued-in to women’s trends than I’d like to be, Babe’s half-eyebrow-look definitively narrows the possible window of time to within the past half-dozen years, plus or minus. Nothing can be gleaned from the holder on her tucked ponytail. As you alluded, Ms. Upstairs Kat’s fashions are totally irrelevant, to everyone … Believe it or not the quality of the electropolish… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Scheele D, Striepens N, Güntürkün O, Deutschländer S, Maier W, Kendrick K, Hurlemann R. 2012. Oxytocin modulates social distance between males and females. The Journal of Neuroscience, 32(46), 16074-16079.
http://renehurlemann.squarespace.com/storage/46.pdf

Males in love view other females as threats. This “in love” syndrome is one of the ways that the FI surrounds women with an umbrella of protection.

jf12
Guest
jf12

The fact that women cannot experience being in love, to the overwhelming degree a man can, is the reason why women are so curious about it and interested in romance novels etc.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Here is another Beta Tell (apologies gmp link). When Elloa told the world that, after a brief honeymoon period with her loving husband, “It frightened me that my hunger for a cheap thrill had the power to overshadow the vows I took” “What drove this attraction was a subconscious drive… to sabotage happiness and push love away.” When honest, women *admit* knowing that they deliberately push loving men away specifically to avoid sex. Nige reveals the hard self-work this caused him. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/wife-told-wants-cheat-heres-feel-gmp/ So, know he knows his wife *wants* him to live in a de-sexed “place no man wants to… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

The Build A Better Beta Project! It’s should be more sad to me, but I’m amused today.

I don’t know if you bothered looking at the Jerk articles last week at the If You’re Going To Bother Hooking Up You’d Be Smart To Stick To Uncaring Alphas site, but their True Jerk whining made me laugh. The girls were complaining about their apex fallacy “all the guys I’d be interested in are all jerks” while complaining that the guys were just pretend jerks i.e. not True Jerks like the girls would prefer.

BuenaVista
Guest
BuenaVista

A friend of mine, who does murky things for a living for the USG and is emerging from divorce and reading blogs such as this for clues, sent me this text this morning to decode. He’s been meeting an UMC married woman in the shadows. They’ve known each other for years, but she remarried a ‘Good Man’ three years ago: “I have no regrets with you. Only that I did not allow myself to meet you before i was married. I was afraid of you. I regret hurting my husband this deeply. It makes me feel sick, as it should.… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

re: fear factor. One possible explanation for Fear’s attractiveness is the Handicap Principle of alphaness. According to the Handicap Principle, any exaggerated male trait that ought to reduce the male’s survival is attractive to females because he shows his good genes by his ability to bear the burden of … bad gene traits. Interestingly, the peacocks with the most elaborate tailfeathers have the *best* survival rate. So the Handicap Principal never did apply in the one big example of it. The jury is still out, however, whether the reason those peacocks survive better is simply because the lesser peacocks just… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Keep in mind that according to the womynz, a no-longer-sexual-partner continuing to be supportive long after the romance dies is like the Most Loving Thing!
http://www.marinij.com/millvalley/ci_26643204/mvff37-documentary-highlights-survival-resilience-after-head-collision

Talk about inversion. This bizarre idea is that long after bed death, that after burying the dead bed in dry dust, that tending the grave of the dead bed is somehow more loving than keeping the bed lively.

jf12
Guest
jf12

“The beatings will continue until your behavior improves. I no longer have major preferences, one way or the other, about your feelings …”
http://sethadamsmith.com/2014/11/02/the-love-i-deserve/
After his wife unilaterally dialed back the sex after the honeymoon period, Seth righteously felt cheated. Now he has redefined True Love as putting up with his wife’s deliberate choices to hurt him.

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jf12
Guest
jf12

P.S. I “get” to change my wife’s oil at lunch, not just to save a few bucks but because she gets distressed at the fearsome thought of strange dirty men getting inside her … thing. Yay me.

Morpheus
Guest
Morpheus

Looks have always mattered more to women then men when when it comes to just purely sex and less when it comes to commitment. With men it is the reverse, looks matter less when it comes to just sex but matter more when it comes to commitment.

Bingo,

Interesting point. I’ve never seen it pointed out quite this way but I think you are right in how men and women apply looks differently for short-term casual sex vs long-term commitment.

Morpheus
Guest
Morpheus

Damn autocorrect,
I meant Bango

Thoroughbred
Guest
Thoroughbred

jf12… Some fairly stellar and startling insights on the nature of love vis-a-vis man and woman. Aligns pretty closely to the “men are the true romantics” and “women love opportunistically” themes here. There are some serious paradoxes in all of this that I’m field testing in real time now with my LTR after years of being the hopeless romantic beta. Namely, that you really almost need to fall out of love with your LTR – at least in the sense of the “romantic love” men become victims to – for you to have the chance that her opportunistic love will… Read more »

Morpheus
Guest
Morpheus

Hypothesis:

Another Alpha tell is women have a different “sexual personality” with men they perceive as Alpha.

They want an Alpha to “fuck her” not “tenderly make love” to her.

I think women also will sexually interact with men they perceive as alpha completely different than beta. For example (bit extreme) but an alpha can say something mid-fucking like “tell me you are my slut” and she will respond “Yea, I am your slut” whereas a beta guy engaging in transactional sex will get her recoiling in horror to the exact same statement.

Just throwing it out as a working theory…thoughts?

newlyaloof
Guest

Speaking of alpha tells, an alpha can’t tell a beta about Game without the beta’s internal filters interpreting then rejecting that advice as “asshole tactics.” I know because this happened to me. Not until I read about Dave from Hawaii on Heartiste’s site where he gave an example of everyday couples relating to each other did I finally get it. A simple example of Game and being alpha simply by being the one to take charge while ordering lunch. Who would have thought! I had been reading Heartiste for about two weeks before that time and I kept rejecting it… Read more »

Tinder Master
Guest
Tinder Master

@ Genghis Can No, I don’t have a blog. I’m just a commentator here and at Heartiste’s blog. @M Simon re: inner alpha The thing is, some men already have the instinctive qualities of alpha but they haven’t actualized it because of feminine conditioning. One only needs to look at beta basketball and football players for evidence. If these guys were to become red pill and game aware, they would be absolute pussy slayers. But on the other hand, take an average guy and while he may achieve an awareness via the redpill and game, it will still be no… Read more »

jf12
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jf12

@Thoroughbred re: tough question.

I hear ya. I think, very possibly, the post-red-pill, post-romantic, post-partner-centered, post-nice-guy “love”, in quotes, is a whole lot closer to what females feel (or rather their lack of feeling) than what males would consider feeling in love. “What’s in it for me, sweetheart?” is both more alpha and more female.

jf12
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jf12

Inquiring minds want to know if there are 80 beta tells to every 20 alpha tells.

BuenaVista
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BuenaVista

TM, per usual I agree with you but there is an innocence curve, I suspect that goes up instead of down. The least sexually aggressive women, and the easiest to shock with unrestrained fucking, in my experience are the low-N, recently divorced women I’ve known. They’re probably much more naive than what you are used to. I do believe, as well, that you know where you stand with a woman by how badly she tries to please you in the sack. You know you are her alpha if she has performance anxiety, gives without expecting reciprocity (e.g., she gives you… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

Testosterone. Alpha males have high testosterone and low cortisol. I agree with all the points here and I would do well to pay attention to “alpha traits” as I’m working to reinvent myself. But the other side of the equation is raising your testosterone. Testosterone is what makes men men. Testosterone I/O by Christopher Walker, who got his T levels off the charts after having them at rock bottom and being fat, weak, tired and depressed, is a great read. All without supplements or prescription drugs. Taking care of your body by working out and eating nourishing food also helps… Read more »

jf12
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jf12

Alpha = Jerk

Don’t cry, now. It’s true. To up the alpha, up the jerk.

jf12
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jf12

Naturals have, to a man, been coddled by women their whole lives, from babyhood on up. Women fight alphas’ battles for them, so the alphas don’t have to. And, THE way that women’s brains experience the strongest romantic love is more or less identical to mother-child bonding, which is why cats are an effective substitute. Hence, another way of expressing the self-centeredness of the alpha=jerk equation is

Alpha = Big Baby

Make her want to take care of you, to bring you food offerings, and wipe your heinie, for fear of your displeasure.

Thoroughbred
Guest
Thoroughbred

jf12… I don’t know man. You lost me there unless I’m missing some nuance. Women hate big baby men that can’t fend for themselves. Total turn off for them. The biggest betas are often children and their LTRs or wives are repulsed by their helplessness. I get much better mileage now by demonstrating that I don’t need my wife at all… Not for anything. She got on my case awhile back when she was cooking dinner for the family… Nagging me in advance and in a particularly condescending and nasty way about how there was only a certain amount of… Read more »

jf12
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jf12

re: “The biggest betas are often children and their LTRs or wives are repulsed by their helplessness.”

This is yet another Big Lie of the FI. The biggest betas are uncomplaining drafthorses who come home from work to a cold kitchen and no dinner and have to rub their wives’ feet sore from a long day of shopping.

jf12
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jf12

For example, Christian Grey, demanding his bottle of narcissistic supply, coddled by Mommy Dearest, forever playing with his toys, being picky about his food, etc., and last but not least inspiring 100 million older moms to want to take care of his needs, is a Big Baby.

jf12
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jf12

Which is more red-pill, “Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money” or “old dogs and children and watermelon wine”?

Bango Tango
Guest
Bango Tango

@TM. I really appreciate your accurate observations and your willingness to share them here. I don’t think that the average man really understands the degree to which a woman can desire a man. As a natural alpha you see it and you are also able to observe those that aren’t getting that and compare the two. There is a huge difference between a woman really wanting a man and just willing to be with a man. Although a woman can really want to be with a man based on her options or lack there of, it still doesn’t mean that… Read more »

BuenaVista
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BuenaVista

JF, time for a pick-me-up or quick nap. You’re suggesting big baby men — Forrest Gump — induce paroxysms of female desire.

jf12
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jf12

Forrest Gump was a self-made man who had to take care of women.

Badpainter
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Badpainter

jf12 is suggesting the “big baby” originates not from the behavior of the man but rather the responsive behavior of the woman. It’s in the care, attention, and coddling behavior of woman. The man, as always, is irrelevent except insofar as he inspires this behavior from women. The man is not acting like a baby, but is the recipient of similar quality and quantity of affectioate attention. The other side of the coin is the man treated as a “responsible adult” by women is the beta. He is burdened with total and complete responsibility for the woman’s behavior, so that… Read more »

jf12
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jf12

Male serviced by female = alpha
Male having to service female = beta

jf12
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jf12

@Badpainter, re: ” The man is not acting like a baby, but is the recipient of similar quality and quantity of affectioate attention.”

You’re, like, the only one who really understands me. Sniffle. So, wanna go the mall and ignore some ladies for fun?

newlyaloof
Guest

@Thoroughbred: damn, could have written your situation as my own and not known the difference. I think too long being with our beta selves may be too much to overcome. The old ladies may never be able to see us in our new alpha skins. But, as you mention, I don’t really give an F if she does or not, or if all this works or not. I just know every day is harder to control the awakened alpha urges, and now with Game knowledge, I know it’s be easier than ever to execute on them.

Dark Triumvir
Guest

The most accurate representation of the “Alpha” concept I’ve found is the biological definition of the Dark Triad. I’ve written at length about it here [1], but in layman’s terms, it is a man who is capable of successfully manipulating others to achieve his ends without regards to any external limitations such as laws, ethics, politics, or morals. Note the emphasis on success, as those who fail will be punished heavily by society’s immune system. Yet those who succeed run the world, within every institution and at every level. Evolutionary game theory postulates that co-operation yields the most positive economic… Read more »

Bango Tango
Guest
Bango Tango

You nailed it with your level of enthusiasm example (then she is not your top priority). Good shit.

lol I meant you’re not HER priority.

@Jf12. You live in Marin? Crazy coincidence. I grew up at the Green Gulch Farm in your linked article (1970’s). Trust me those Buddhists are airy fairy liberals with their heads up ass. I know this first hand….

jf12
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jf12

@BT, no, the womynz in the article live there, not me. My current closest tie to Marin County is a rapidly aging alpha gay nephew currently the “boy” toy of an extremely wealthy and obese semi-retired proctologist. A couple of decades ago a close friend, an oil executive, retired early after a bitter divorce and bought a private beach with its own yacht dock, supposedly saving enough money in marina rental fees to pay for it after a few years. He kept playing the siren call of the sovereign man to me, but I had seaweed wrapped around my head… Read more »

Bango Tango
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Bango Tango

Jf12. That sounds like your average Marinites! lol

jf12
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jf12

re: mastering Tinder. More than a billion swipes per day. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/30/fashion/tinder-the-fast-growing-dating-app-taps-an-age-old-truth.html The demographics are a closely held secret, but have been previously reported to have stabilized to about 60/40 men/women, after being a huge sausage-fest at first, after more than a year of marketing directed exclusively at recruiting women. The vast majority of men log on a few times, realize they aren’t going to succeed, and never log on again. Their profiles remain active of course. The vast majority of women who are active users log on compulsively, checking to see which men they can reject. This is the part… Read more »

bo
Guest
bo

@ Thoroughbred I feel the same, its like some kind of evil paradox, if you love her you lose her, if you can do better shes yours. Of course this might explain why Indian arranged marriages end up happier that western style “love” marriages. I think alot of the problem just comes because of our former mating strategies that evolved in tribes. Even today if you go to places like manaus, brazil people aren’t too worried about whose children are whose(my colombian friend was said “WTF?? I want my children to be my own!”). Its this tribal mentality where women… Read more »

Just Saying
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Just Saying

alphaness of a male towards a female is exhibited by her wanting to please him Bingo… I was recently at a party and one of my “core group” women was with me, and sat at my feet throughout the evening. Whenever she saw that either I needed a drink or anything else she would hurry to get it for me and while most of the time I just took it as my due. One of the times, I took a handful of her hair and gave her a kiss – then a swat on the tail as my thanks for… Read more »

George
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George

@ Rollo,

Can alpha be accurately described as a “mindset”, a state of zen so to speak, or more specifically a sense of awareness experienced by we who transcend the dominance of others and never feel the need to subjugate ourselves or supplicate to anyone?

George
Guest
George

@jf12

“….long after bed death, that after burying the dead bed in dry dust, that tending the grave of the dead bed is somehow more loving than keeping the bed lively.”

This is not love. This is castration.

BuenaVista
Guest
BuenaVista

Right. Forrest Gump is desirable, not attractive. Carry on.

John Wick is a cartoon hero because he needs women to bring him pb&j sandwiches with his H&K. It just reveals the alpha of sloth, and he is slothful.

Signor Farfalo in The American is beta because he cares for Clara and attempts to save her life. Trained killers are such romantics!

Seraph
Guest
Seraph

“Essentially, does the individual prioritize his OWN feelings (Fi), or does he prioritize the feelings of OTHERS (Fe). Based on this prioritization (which is inborn and temperamental unless purposely altered by the individual), they will naturally become either the alpha or the beta archetypes.” I think there is a lot of truth to this, the two different attitudes triggering all sorts of secondary behaviors which are picked up on by others. I know for myself, I have been very much Fe for most of my life until recently. I begam to realize that I always try to consider everyone else’s… Read more »

Badpainter
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Badpainter

Seraph – “The woman of his affections then gets annoyed because to her perception, he was pretending to be “A Nice Guy” with ulterior motives.”

This is important. I hadn’t made the conscious connection before. Women think “nice” is a subtle con job because that’s how they, and why they do nice. There is nothing genuine in a “nice” girl but her genuine want of something from the man she is being nice to. Something she can’t just take.

zdr01dz
Guest

Thank you Rollo. I stumbled across this site a few weeks ago and with each article I became increasingly cynical about my relationship and relationships in general. However I want to thank Rollo for this article because it made me feel closer to my wife. The checklist at the end of this article brought everything back into perspective. Q) Is she affectionate without being prompted or only when circumstance makes your comfort needed for her? A) Nearly always affectionate. Q) Is Amused Mastery an easy default for you, or does she resist even playful attempts at it? A) Effortless default.… Read more »

chris
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chris

(Edit: Please delete the other one as I copy/pasted too much) http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0044456 Results Women’s Ratings of Partner’s Sexual Attractiveness In-pair attraction. There was no main effect of fertility on women’s feelings of in-pair attraction, F (1, 38) = 0.34, pdir = .35, partial η2 = .01. However, the interaction between fertility and women’s ratings of partner sexual attractiveness was significant, F (1, 38) = 6.05, pdir = .01, partial η2 = .14. As shown in Figure 1, the less sexually attractive women rated their partner, the less in-pair attraction they reported at high fertility compared with low fertility (partial r… Read more »

chris
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chris

What would be interesting if there was a breakdown in the women which experienced the ovulatory shift and the women which didn’t for a man at the same level of sexual attractiveness.

I would hypothesise that masculinised women would be more prone to this shift (lower digit ratio and higher testosterone levels).

Then again, it maybe possible that more feminine women are more prone to the shift as this shift is peculiar to the female brain and the female brain is organised under the influence of estrogen.

chris
Guest
chris

This also has interesting political repercussions I would think. In a feminist/matriarchial society which culturally, socially and legally incentivises cuckoldry, the bottom 85 percent of men are better off shifting their loyalties to an anti-feminist/patriarchal society, as such a society would proscribe women’s natural/instinctual inclinations to cuckold such men. In the future, you may see a mass exodus of the bottom 85 percent of men to patriarchal countries like Russia and the Middle East or atleastly a shift in support of the cultural imperialism/hegemony of those countries as those countries would espouse a cultural, social and legal regime that proscribes… Read more »

sfcton
Guest

The man-o-sphere/ Red Pill is a sub culture and sub cultures frequently have their own terminology. Alpha as commonly defined in the man-o-spehre/ Red Pill is a good working definition. If a man doesn’t like the the way it is defined its still the language of that land for us. Deal with it here and use a different definition in the other areas of life.

Morpheus I agree with your hypothesis and have been thinking along those lines for long time. The last 12 months or so have solidified the concept for me.

chris
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chris

@Rollo

I’ve read that post before, the reason I posted that comment is that it is actual hard statistical data from a citable scientific study confirming it.

Badpainter
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Badpainter

Rollo – “I was planning a Beta Tells post as a follow up to this one, but it’s almost too easy to list those behaviors (from a Beta man’s directive), since they’re so common and identifiable. I’m still debating whether to post it, since it’ll invariably come off as Beta Hating due to how easy it is to recount behaviors that most guys are guilty of. I dunno, maybe… Alpha tells are really just as obvious, but it’s my guess that most men have either never genuinely experienced them or just remain suspect of them because they want to believe… Read more »

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist

Quickly. From my perspective of being married half my life, my wife has seen me as both beta and alphalpha. and acted accordingly.

Life is a rhythm, we move seamlessly from A to B and back again.

Right now, she sees me as Alphalpha, if Saturday nights’ sex is any indication….

eon
Guest
eon

@ Morpheus, November 3rd, 2014 at 1:20 pm “Hypothesis: Another Alpha tell is women have a different “sexual personality” with men they perceive as Alpha. They want an Alpha to “fuck her” not “tenderly make love” to her. I think women also will sexually interact with men they perceive as alpha completely different than beta. For example (bit extreme) but an alpha can say something mid-fucking like “tell me you are my slut” and she will respond “Yea, I am your slut” whereas a beta guy engaging in transactional sex will get her recoiling in horror to the exact same… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Badpainter makes the connection, dooming us all because we cannot unsee it. “Women think “nice” is a subtle con job because that’s how they, and why they do nice.”

There is almost nothing left to say now, is there? But that probably won’t stop me.

Bango Tango
Guest
Bango Tango

They want an Alpha to “fuck her” not “tenderly make love” to her. I think women also will sexually interact with men they perceive as alpha completely different than beta. For example (bit extreme) but an alpha can say something mid-fucking like “tell me you are my slut” and she will respond “Yea, I am your slut” whereas a beta guy engaging in transactional sex will get her recoiling in horror to the exact same statement. Just throwing it out as a working theory…thoughts? @Morpheus. Yes this is exactly right. Your example is correct in what women expect from a… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

re: “what behaviors do women exhibit in the presence of a man they at least perceive as being Alpha?” These are some of the classics: 1. When he isn’t home, she misses him and so desires his presence that she really exerts herself to make herself and home look great. She spends a lot of time making his favorite meals every day, and rushes to open the door to greet him warmly and sexualizedly the instant he returns – smooching and stroking etc. 2. She *brings* him his food, always, every time, and often feeds it to him. This is… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Women don’t feel their babies are below them, but above them. They put the babies’ well-being far above their own.

jf12
Guest
jf12

re: “You can’t fool them, they know.”

Incorrect on both. You can fool them, and they don’t know.

jf12
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jf12

Many women erroneously, and obviously in support of the FI, claim to believe that men feel more alpha when the man is working hard to take care of the woman, i.e. “benevolent sexism”. The opposite is true.

Thoroughbred
Guest
Thoroughbred

Re jf12 classic behaviors…

In other words, one lucky bastard…

bbb
Guest

@Bango Spot on. But until he wakes up, a man tends to conflate a woman’s oxytocin-induced satiety with his own serotonin release: the former cuddly, the latter far more urgent and messy. And to be fair, the woman is equally confused. She wonders why he doesn’t want to linger endlessly between the sheets and instead he quickly mops up and turns on the TV. For the alpha widow, memories of her own serotonin releases stem from the pumps and dumps she experienced with the bad boys of her past. To be fair, however, the man, especially if the woman has… Read more »

Bango Tango
Guest
Bango Tango

“Incorrect on both. You can fool them, and they don’t know.”

We will have to agree to disagree then. Women are always talking to each other and know exactly who the real alphas of the tribe are. Yes you can trick them to an extent with signaling but ultimately they know. People magazine will always have consumers and those are not men.

Bango Tango
Guest
Bango Tango

Spot on. But until he wakes up, a man tends to conflate a woman’s oxytocin-induced satiety with his own serotonin release: the former cuddly, the latter far more urgent and messy. And to be fair, the woman is equally confused. She wonders why he doesn’t want to linger endlessly between the sheets and instead he quickly mops up and turns on the TV. @bbb. I was trying to think of the two chemicals that were released with these different brain states of a woman and couldn’t. Thanks for that. And you’re right, after sex a woman still wants to cuddle… Read more »

eon
Guest
eon

“Women don’t feel their babies are below them, but above them. They put the babies’ well-being far above their own.”

Some women definitely do, while others abort them or decide that they are cockblocking her new intended man.

In any case, women never feel that their babies are above them in capability or authority.

jf12
Guest
jf12

redpill Christmas songs. First up, “Santa Baby”. Santa here is completely beta, and the song is all about how he can take care of her wants, what he can do for her, how he makes her feel good. Note the ironic use of the dimunitive, her way of teasing her sugar daddy, reinforcing the idea that she *knows* she should be taking care of him instead.

jf12
Guest
jf12

re: capability vs authority.

A beta drafthorse is valued specifically for his ability. A baby’s authority is evident as soon as he opens his mouth to cry: mommy then obeys.

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