Time again for the annual re-post of this Classic:


Nothing says “I love you” like saturated fat and slutty lingerie.

In the U.S. businesses expect men to spend on average $186 for Valentine’s day – over three times the average a woman spends on a man. Explain to me why women own V-Day? If it’s a “celebration of romantic love” why should it be an annual shit test?

Lets clarify a few things about Vagintines Day since it’s become probably the most irksome manifestation of westernized/commercialized romanticism. V-Day is far and away the most vulgar display of female entitlement. On no occasion – even a woman’s birthday or her wedding anniversary – is this sense of entitlement more pronounced and our refined commercialization of this entitlement/expectation simply twists the knife in further for men to live up to this with ZERO expectation or entitlement to any reciprocation. He gets ‘lucky‘ if his romantic offerings are sufficient to appease her (social) media fueled expectations of ‘good enough’ to reward him with sex.

And exploit the media does. I can’t get away from it; Every radio station, every TV show, every newspaper and magazine article. Go to askmen.com right now, I guarantee there’s a “how not to fuck up this year’s V-Day for her” article there.

I listened to a talk radio show that I regularly tune into on my commute home on Friday; it was about what not buy this year. “Don’t buy lingerie, she knows it’s really a gift for you” or “Don’t pick up flowers at the gas station, women know they’re cheap”, and “God forbid you pick up some cheap jewlery or stop at one of those roadside urchins selling prepared flower baskets or arrangements – women know you didn’t think about it until you were on the way home.” On my way to work this morning, different show, same list. [Side Note: Never buy a woman lingerie, she will never be happy with it. A woman has to do this on her own to “feel sexy”, make sure it fits her right, and it’s HER IDEA. When you buy it for her it’s contrived and it is overt and overt is often the kiss of death for a try-hard guy.]

Why wouldn’t women have these expectiations? They’re relentlessly marketed to as the primary consumers in western culture. V-Day isn’t a celebration of romantic love, it’s a machine that drives a wedge of expectation and entitlement in between otherwise happy, relatively contented couples.

I’m not down on the idea of a special occasion to celebrate love (I actually proposed to Mrs. Tomassi on V-Day 18 years ago), I am down on the twisted expectations that have been perverted into it that puts a woman on some pedestal of entitlement by commercialized popularization of this feminized ideal. Why isn’t there an official “fuck your boyfriend like a wild animal” holiday or a list of criteria to meet that’ll make his day special? “Show him how appreciative you are of all his dependability and hard work this year – buy some lingerie ON YOUR OWN and pretend that you like him cuming in your mouth on his special day!” If women are so liberated and interested in equality, one would think this would be the first thing to occur to them. We need a special day to make us apprecitae each other?

Gentlemen, beware of falling into the trap of negotiating desire for Valentine’s Day performance. Don’t be lulled into thinking Game is any less necessary on V-Day. In fact, I can’t think of a more direct illustration of how the feminine encourages the transaction of men’s goods and services in exchange for a woman’s sexuality than reserving a ‘special day’ just for it. Remember, you cannot negotiate genuine desire; and with the right art, a bag of Skittles can be a more romantic gesture than all the sonnets, flowers and jewelry your inner romantic soul will ever be appreciated for by her.

Note to PUAs

Valentine’s Day is ripe with opportunity for an enterprising Man with the ability to see it. Go hit the clubs tomorrow night, particularly the ones that cater to a 25-40 y.o. affluent crowd. There’s a million different venues you can hit, all with promotions to help single ladies feel better about not having a date – usually with genderist drink specials to help your approach too. You’ll notice impromptu GNOs (girl’s night out) set up just for this occasion to prove to themselves “they don’t need men to have a good time.” A good PUA couldn’t arrange a better opportunity to hook up in multiple sets.

Don’t go play ‘pity friend’ with any girl on V-Day, don’t be the “you’re such a great friend” consolation date.. Call up your best wing man and sarge on the best night of the year to sarge. Wedding receptions aren’t even as good as V-Day for this.

V-Day in the Matrix

Just in case you weren’t already convinced of the complete totality of media control that the Matrix has, let me offer yet one more Valentine’s Day example:

I was in a grocery store this weekend picking up something to grill and thought it would be a convenient time to pick up a Valentine’s Card for my wife since it’s coming this week. So I meander over to the greeting cards section to sift this years crop of mushy sentiment.  Much to my disgust the only cards available in the “For My Wife” section of the Valentines Cards (and I mean ONLY cards available) come in two types:

A.) The sentimental, “My life was nothing before you and would be nothing without you”, tripe that reduces a man to a simpering, codependent who owes his very existence to the woman who deigned to marry the poor soul.

B.)The “humorous” Valentine that is essentially the greeting card equivalent of Everybody Loves Raymond or Family Guy. These are basically intended to beg for a wife’s forgiveness for all of his uniquely male faults and foibles, that only she can solve by virtue of her infallible feminine wiles. Judging from the ‘humorous’ intent of these cards, no man is capable of feeding himself much less ask for direction or leave a toilet seat down, but on “her special day” this card is meant to prompt an appologetic laugh.

Needless to say I’ll be making my own card this year, but for fuck’s sake, how can we ever get a break from this shit when we’re ankle-bitten at every opportunity? You simply cannot buy a card that doesn’t force a man to be self-depricating.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

268 comments on “V-Day

  1. @Sentient. Those posts have got me thinking about my own situation and the need at all costs to maintain a public facade of amused mastery and aloofness.

    For the first time in years I’ve handled the dropping of a plate masterfully…:no reaction, banging other girls, staying off social media etc…it’s been a month. She’s tried to get my attention in a very provocative way and hit on my friends getting them to take her out. I haven’t reacted.

    But to the guys here….it’s wearing me down. I’m afraid if I see her I’ll blow up and give her a piece of my mind….which she wants.

    Dudes the difference between theory and practice is immense. The Red Pill reveals many ncomfortsble truths and doing the right thing often doesn’t feel good at first….

    My crazy ex used to parade guys in front of me and I would simply ignore …take a deep breath and pretend I never saw or didn’t care.

    Now…two years later I laugh when I think about the cheap attention grabbing techniques…

    The dudes here struggling need to know that Red pill theory and practice are very different. The idea you can just not feel anger frustration or some sense of confusion is not realistic. The red pill has made me see that while those feeelings are normal acting on them…is BLue Pill…giving in to shit tests for the sake of relief is. Blue pIll…

  2. That is really sad news about Robert Ashton. Very sobering.

    I’ve had a few friends who have attempted or nearly attempted suicide as a result of issues with women, whether it was a divorce, beta longing, or what have you. I myself was there when I was incel.

    Shit, I was jamming with a couple guys the other day and one of them mentioned a friend of theirs that died. His heart stopped after he mixed a heavy dose of alcohol and benzos. I used to do that shit constantly with the hope that I wouldn’t wake up the next day. With how many pills I took and alcohol I drank and 18-20 hour blackouts I had it’s probably a miracle I’m still here.

    And it was almost exclusively because of my incel status at the time. Sure I went through a lot of fucked up shit in my life, but the biggest blow was the YEAR after YEAR of no touch, no sex, no NOTHING. And my obsessive reading about how they’re physiological needs, what the effects of deprivation were, etc. It was hell on earth and it lasted for years and years.

    It was so bad if I even brushed arms with a girl I would think about what it felt like for MONTHS. The level of deprivation I experienced was insane, and it’s crazy to think about how much torture it felt like I went through until sex became a normal part of my life.

    I just didn’t want to exist anymore. All those times I was mixing pills and alcohol I didn’t give a shit whether I lived or died. I was guaranteed a temporary escape, and at worst I would die, which would be an even better escape, so it was a win-win for me at the time. That’s what it felt like.

    The live in complete denial and deprivation of one of your most innate biological drives is hell. It’s even worse because you can mentally torment yourself over it. If you’re starving to death there’s no question about what you need. It’s obvious. But with sexual starvation over the years, you can start blaming yourself and beating yourself up and build up a whole neurosis around it. Very easy for it to branch out into actual mental illness and a whole web of bullshit with self-perception.

    There’s a whole culture waiting to shame male sexuality and reinforce incels’ identities with being “losers” that will happily contribute to their mental and emotional problems that are already way out of control. A lot of people will GLADLY shame sexually starving men for even HAVING sex drives, while shaming them at the same time for not acting on them.

    I’m better, but I need to be very RP aware at all times to maintain my sanity and keep myself from falling back into that hellhole. For example, getting regular sex and being in a relationship, but then experiencing MORE shame and guilt for still being attracted to other women.

    So now you get SOME sex, but you’re still BAD for wanting sex with anyone but the girl you’re in a relationship with. And nevermind that if you break up she’ll be fucking another guy that night and will have no issues doing so while you just jerk off to porn for the next 5 years. You’re expected to martyr yourself to the FI and that is complete and utter bullshit. RP 101 is identifying your individual value, separate from everyone else, and a sense of self-preservation and self-prioritization.

    If you’re not RP aware the FI will chew you up and spit you out. The good flip side is, as an Alpha, the FI is a complete joke that you don’t have to do anything but laugh at and/or ignore completely while you’re focusing on more important things. There is a bright side to this, a hard won light at the end of the tunnel.

    “Alpha is a state of mind.” That’s the most important thing to remember. There is no external event that is magically going to pull you out of Blue Pill and into peace of mind with TRP. It’s something you have to cultivate and maintain.

    1. FWIW, I’m not married to a “Quality Woman”, I’m just married to A woman.

      “Quality” is what guys call their wives on Facebook around their anniversaries, before their divorce when they say they “never thought she was capable of all this”. “Quality” is also what they call their second wife because now they know better.

  3. @Marko

    Mrs. Gamer has had some quality training. She knows how to mate guard herself. But has she never played Hide the Vagina ™? hahahaha Quality Women don’t play that game. Quality Women don’t flirt with men at church after filing for divorce.

    Mrs. Gamer is A Woman.

    You say that maybe most young women have had a large number of partners, but that there is still some small subset of women who haven’t and are Quality Women ™. My, oh, my, let ALL of the young men somehow find and compete for those women.

    Sucks to be the losers. You have such a great plan. I see massive male suicides ahead…oh, wait, those suicides are already happening.

    You are living as tho this were the 1960s.

  4. @KFG February 17, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    Thanks for the clarification on egalitarianism. I was using the term wrong when using it in an anthropological sense. I was thinking more of the tribal clannishness concept of kinship altruism and mis-appropriated the term egalitarianism.

    As long as your in the clarifying business. Clarify for me your previous statement:

    September 7th, 2016 at 2:49 pm

    “Impressing people is utterly different from being truly impressive.”

    Or, as I have had to phrase it in conversation:

    I am not an elitist, I am elite.

    Subsequent to that comment, sometime this year you re-iterated the statement:

    “I am not an elitist, I am elite” and labeled what the first part of the statement implies and what the second part of the statement means.

    Thanks. The concept comes up frequently on another forum (accusations of elitism and the tendency of my buddy and I to Agree and Amplify) I frequent and I wanted to get the context straight.

  5. @Marko

    “If there are no QW, then there is no hope for a satisfying LTR or marriage.”

    This is so wrong. What do you think Game is about? A man has to perform.

    Egalitarianism means favoring equality for all people. What does this even mean? Does a man have a right to get pregnant??? Do women have to work in coal mines in numbers comparable to their social ratio?

    From Wiki: An example of this form is the Tunisian Constitution of 2014 which provides that “men and women shall be equal in their rights and duties.”

    The vapidity of egalitarianism exceeds hyperbolic description.

  6. Some words are overused to the point they are a cliche (particularly when used in a certain context). Quality is one of the many, many. It comes across like an e-Harmony ad.

    But it is true the cost to gains equation for choosing a life partner is different from choosing a booty call. Or it should be. Unless you want to see your quality of life go down faster than a hooker’s head on payday Friday in a brothel on the Titanic.

  7. Or down faster than…

    -IB’s fingers on the keyboard following some arbitrary hottie’s post on submission…

  8. @anon

    But it is true the cost to gains equation for choosing a life partner is different from choosing a booty call. Or it should be. Unless you want to see your quality of life go down faster than a hooker’s head on payday Friday in a brothel on the Titanic.

    Depends on the booty call. Not all booty calls are equal, just like not all LTR partners. Is the beta sentenced to life?

    One man’s quality is another man’s hell. Sink me. [in my best faux Pimpernellian accent] What goes down must come up. Up the Titanic! Unshutter the brothel! Full speed ahead!

    These cravats are the devil. I spent hours trying to tie mine and it went limp already.

  9. @SJF: ” I was using the term wrong when using it in an anthropological sense.”

    No, the error was mostly mine. I was being too terse, being a bit short of time and attention and being unwilling to give much of what I had to Marko’s idée fixe. Anthropologists do, in fact, use the word as you were, particularly when they are pushing the Narrative (and anthropology as we know it was born to push the the Narrative).

    The Orwellian machine grinds on, turning the language into a useless, beige paste. Discussions can go on for hours, and hours and hours, simply trying to come to a common understanding of terms.

    So, that said, the essential core meaning of the word “egalitarian” is that social status is not inheritable. All sub meanings ultimately derive from that. The French King lost his head over the assertion that he had the right to be King because his grandfather had been King.

    Which brings us to this: “I am not an elitist, I am elite.”

    This is a phrase born of the 21st century. I am attempting to differentiate the objective state of being better from the socio-political philosophy of being better:


    in a world which is trying its best to deny that there is any such thing as “objectively better.”

    Prima: Dude, look at the stopwatch. I’m faster than you.

    Secundus: Stopwatches are an oppressive tool of the Captialist Patriarchy (i.e. evil). Mere possession of the stopwatch means you’re an elitist (another synonym for evil). And probably Literally Hitler (pure evil) as well.

    Prima: Dude, WTF? I’m just faster than you. Take a chill pill or something.

    Secundus: DIE shitlord scum!

  10. @Sentient. I’m proud of how I managed this. It’s the second plate I managed properly.

    She came out to my party tonite. I ignored and danced with everyone but her. She came by where I was at one point and dashed off and then stared at me until I moved.

    I was conscious she was there but my goal was to have fun….

    Of course she tried a jealousy plot line but o grabbed a hot girl and started gaming her…

    So dudes…mind over matter here…you have to have that abundance mentality and not lose your shit despite the provocations..:

  11. @Walawala:

    Good work. And I would like to assure you, however hard it is, with practice, the practice improves.

  12. good stuff wala, I find more actionable help from guys who had to come from BP (like me) than those who are naturals or naturalized long ago. Not that they don’t have good info, it’s just they tend to be more big picture and abstract — targets to shoot towards. Day-by-day examples of how to stay the course are great in that they reduce the trial and error that I (we) must go through. God knows I’ve already lost enough time to being BP and the quicker I can become RP then the more of my life is mine on my terms.

    To complete the analogy, I know I have to put in the practice to get proficient at hitting the target — I see it clearly in the distance, but some practical instruction on how to stance and aim and correct errors is going to get me there much quicker.

    Keep it coming.

  13. @Marko Many guys are talking at you and we are all trying to get a concept across to you that will break the myth of “symmetry”

    Men and woman are fundamentally different. You can define your own goals to harmonize with those of a woman, but if you become your mental point of origin you will see quickly that your woman (quality or otherwise) has different goals. For example, I think I have a QW, meaning that as far as 40 you women go, she is better looking, has a generally amiable attitude towards me, serves my needs well (sex, cooking cleaning, doing what I ask of her in support of my ends, apologizes after an emotional episode that wasted/diminished our time together, etc.). Do I have any illusion that she is this way inherently? No. She was raised in a culture that was helpful and she sees me as her alpha (presently) so she is pliable and thus a QW (right now). I have no idea what would happen if I got a serious medical problem. All indicators are that she would be loyal to me other than my RP knowledge about women being pragmatic. What started me down the RP path was one incident that screamed (to me) that she starting to lose respect for me. Oddly, I figured out later it was a good sign that she started to lose respect for me. This symptom, her unconscious reaction to be beta habits, was the sign I needed to find you all here and improve myself.

    That brings me to the final point. Finding a QW is backasswards. If you focus on your goals & desires (which has to be more than women) and thus have no need for her (any “QW”), you will find that the women you attract will be (or become) more QW and likely to remain so (or you won’t care if they don’t) while you have that self driven mindset.

  14. Marko, when I pour water into a vase it take the shape of the vase I poured it into.
    The vase does not change shape, it remains in its vase frame.

    Is that Quality Water? Or just water, doing what water does?

  15. Pull some different threads here at TRM together.

    First: …Quality Woman…
    Second: “They are all girls”.

    So actually sometimes the topic should be Quality Girl?

    I’ve found that using the term “girl” around the 30-something professional women first gets some bristling, like “women!” but a bit of cocky-funny “Oh, right WOOOOmen!” in a sort of Dr. Evil voice brings the giggles, and then…no complaints about the G word. Pretty soon a 40 year old confides about her girlfriend’s upcoming trip and how girls need something to look forward to during the year because work gets so BORing (include eyeroll, like a teenager). I thought she was going to start singing Pick Me, I’m Clean next.

    Yes. They are all girls. Now, about that Quality Girl thing, Marko…

  16. I was skeptical of some if the trip reports when I started reading here a couple of months back. I’m not any more.

    The former oneitis from 30 years ago stepdad had a stroke last week, he retired a couple of months back and has sat around and chain smoked and drank himself silly since. I remember being at his house in 1985 and it was immaculate. This plates mother left him in 1997, and he never got over it. Literally, he was so heartbroken he gave up on life. Like hoarders but more akin to quitters. The whole property is waist high in weeds. All the stuff left over from an aborted remodel job a decade ago where they left it.

    Oneitis kills in the cruelest and most insensitive way. I’m so glad this broad blew me off in high school, and then overtly threw herself at me when I was rebounding from the last oneitis. First time I’ve ever been with a broad and didn’t attach, very liberating.

    Probably should have always been this way. Too bad I didn’t get the right books back then.

  17. I’ve read Rollo’s post on Quality Woman. I agree with him, and everyone, that hypergamy can manifest with any woman. I totally agree that Oneitis is a fatal mistake in any relationship and has to be dropped no matter how HQ the woman is. (SJF gave a positive personal experience on this)

    The element which hasn’t been mentioned much lately, which is the key to QW, is commitment. A QW has all kinds of wonderful qualities I could list, most are obvious, many will vary subjectively from man to man. But willingness and psychological/spiritual ability to commit to stay in the relationship and effort to make it thrive long term is essential to be a QW for a LTR or marriage with children.

    SJF: this commitment element is “what can be nailed down.” Hypergamy is a matter of degree in women and men. Any sane person M/F has “deal breakers” in a relationship, which would lead them to leave (e.g. Blax’s example of total financial and personal collapse).

    So commitment is conditional, but necessary. What are the “conditions”? In our hyper-individualist society (M and F), individuals will vary. In this culture, we get to choose — culture and law are permissive.

    @ kfg: OK, here’s my partial list for QW. Each’s man’s will vary.
    Sane (not BPD!), sexy, good with money, good with kids, good interpersonal skills in general, good social skills, able to be financially independent (she therefore will not stay with you because she has to), healthy (chronic illness can make a relationship hell). You get the idea — we will each have our own list of character traits and deal-breakers

    Re SJF’s comment that my contributions are not making logical debate flow: I am adding some issues to the debate that have not gotten much attention so far, that I think are very important to men, and especially to the men still posting on TRM.

    Long Game, especially for those guys about to be empty nest, in marriages.
    Long Game, for guys like Scrib. He’s mastering short game, and may just continue that. Or, what comes next, for frivorced guys in middle age.
    Long Game, for guys getting ready to divorce.
    Long Game, for guys trying to reconstruct their marriages (MMSL or BluePillProfessor good here)

    Conditions for good LTR or marriage: I totally agree that cultural situation has drastically changed for under 30 or 40. I’m seeking insights here, to be helpful to grandkids coming up into this. Looking forward to Rollo’s next book here.

    @SJF The Wikipedia article on Complementarianism equates that with M/F hierarchy. I’ve not been using that way, so I see the confusion.
    I don’t know the correct or usual term for what I prefer — it’s egalitarian, but not “equalism.” It sees M/F as complementary, but does imply headship/support, or dominant/submissive. Maybe “Not-Sameness Complementary Egalitarian.”

    I seem to be a harder-ass Darwinian than some posters here. If Quality Women are rare, YOU be THAT guy that gets one to commit, and then do good continuous training to keep here that way and get better and better. As we all have been observing, the current culture is harming the potential of many young women (and older ones!) You’ve got to have good QW reality and potential to start with, if Long Game is to have a reasonable chance to be successful. Darwin.
    If you don’t believe in different women having different QW actuality and potential, then you don’t believe in Evolution. (Maybe you are a — gasp! — a closet egalitarian. Isn’t AWALT egalitarian-ish?)

    It seems to me, if guys ride the “vagina carousel” in their teens and 20s, they might experience HB widowerhood, similar to women who ride the “cock carousel” and experiences Alpha widowhood. But, Blax and Rollo seem to be an exception to this. They seem to have a “been there, done that” attitude, and can let it go. Or did they marry a HB who compares well with prior experiences?

  18. I lost my virginity at 25 to my ex wife.

    Because I was BP/Disney she left me anyway.

    Her nuttiest friends all were aghast when she left because of my “dedication”

    In fact, this is a problem. I start dating a chick, and within DAYS women start referring to her as “your wife”. Clearly my frame is fucked up, but maybe it’s an angle I can play to my advantage.


  19. @Marko

    Ignoring my questions doesn’t mean that you get the point. My questions have their own points which you have been unable to answer.

    The element which hasn’t been mentioned much lately, which is the key to QW, is commitment.

    Lol, what do you mean by “commitment”? Young women are divorcing like it’s going out of style. And married women in your age bracket have sex so rarely that it’s statistically insignificant. Commitment must include sex, even at your age.

    How do all these multitudes of men find a Quality Woman ™, which, even if a few exist, must be as rare as hen’s teeth?

  20. @Marko

    If Quality Women are rare, YOU be THAT guy that gets one to commit, and then do good continuous training to keep here that way and get better and better.

    This is like polygyny…YOU be the alpha who lands three or four wives and the rest can go off themselves. :/

    Better is to train a woman to behave properly, as someone else has also suggested.

  21. @Marko

    if guys ride the “vagina carousel” in their teens and 20s,

    You don’t get it. Most boys and men in their teens and 20s get very little sex. Attractive young women get a LOT of sex. A few boys and young men get a WHOLE LOTTA sex.

  22. @Marko:

    “I don’t know the correct or usual term for what I prefer — it’s egalitarian, but not “equalism.” It sees M/F as complementary, but does imply headship/support, or dominant/submissive. Maybe “Not-Sameness Complementary Egalitarian.””

    Well if you don’t know what you’re talking about, even mind reading isn’t going to help us figure it out. But trying my best to read your mind between the lines of this yields the same results as previous attempts. What you mean is:

    “That word makes me feel all squicky inside. Quit it.”

    “YOU be THAT guy that gets one to commit, and then do good continuous training to keep here that way and get better and better.”

    Be the dominant male who doesn’t dominate. Fried ice. That’s where I came in to this movie. Your questions don’t lack logical flow, they lack logical cohesion.

    “Darwin . . .”

    Doesn’t give a fuck about Quality Women or Long Term Relationships. All chipmunks and bears are the children of single mothers, who were just a quick lay to the father. “Darwin” only cares about babies and their survival rates. “Darwin thinks” that a Quality Woman is one who gets knocked up a lot and whose kids don’t die before they in turn knock out more kids.

    Everything else is social philosophy. My ax says, “Yeah, I got yer social philosophy right here, Buddy, so take it back to Joisey where ya came from, before “somebody” gets hurt.”

  23. “Marko”

    if guys ride the “vagina carousel” in their teens and 20s,

    Wardrobe failure! Your beard has slipped again, dearie.

  24. dr zipper. I think you mean guys who like me had to learn game so they understand the divide between what is and isn’t red pill.

    From a red pill perspective while I ignored her all night it was hard to avoid her at times: she hovered around my table for no reason…/she sat across from me with an orbiter , she tried to sit across from me to get my attention….all these were obvious and had worked in the past.

    But her actions of January warrant a hard next: meltdown…saying she’s “out”. Stiffing me for shoes she asked me to order and buy…the bizarre gift return…

    I did enjoy being with her but….today another plate is coming over who has never given me a second of drama …

    That is now how I get past these things..

    As of late I’ve been giving advice or commentary this was the first time in a while I actually needed some feedback …thanks dudes…

  25. @Dizzle Yes, you are right. You need to push the alpha.

    @Marko We all know women are not fungible. It isn’t just their looks that are different. There is a bell curve. They have differing degrees of maturity, etc. And they all are internally driven by AF/BB from an attraction perspective, even though they can sometimes and in some ways mentally ignore their tingles/attraction.
    We also know that different girls find different combinations of looks, manner, behavior, more or less alpha than others, with some common themes underlying these.
    This is all common ground and part of reality. We just don’t talk about it much here because it is not novel to do this. What is novel is for us all to some degree (me in the learning phase for sure) internalize the common themes of alpha, not just so that we can win with women, but so that we can win with life and (if so inclined) be the example the next generation.

    As for as “Long Game” is concerned, I will quote Alan Watts, who put it this way, “No valid plans for the future can be made by those who have no capacity for living now.” Focus on you and focus on “Now”!

  26. “Re SJF’s comment that my contributions are not making logical debate flow: I am adding some issues to the debate that have not gotten much attention so far, that I think are very important to men, and especially to the men still posting on TRM.”

    I’m going to be conciliatory here. Your contributions do make logical debate flow.

    Athough Kfg phrased it: “Your questions don’t lack logical flow, they lack logical cohesion.

    What I meant was that most of us that have been accepting of Red Pill don’t believe your premises are solid at the beginning of the logical debate (Quality Woman, symmetry and egal… whatever the definitional terms are) . As in “How can you eat your meat if you haven’t eaten your pudding”. Correct premises should be in place before the deluge of debate. Whatever your premises are, they are not rising to my expectations of being valid in Rollo’s Red Pill Brand.

    Pretty much all the responses here after your comments here yesterday reject the premise: Get a quality woman and half your problems are solved. Well Begun, is Half done works with my wildlife deer habitat food plots, it doesn’t always work with inter-sexual strategy. What some of us understand, from Rollo’s specific Red Pill Brand is that that premise is false. So the logic gets off on the wrong foot. And that is where I say logical debate can’t flow and KFG says the argument isn’t cohesive. In a praxeologic sense (what works), we have been over this before in the last couple years here in debate. What I have come to realize is that if the premise is: Just Pick a Quality Woman and everything flows downwards then that equates to Just Find a Unicorn. I personally fell into that fallacy in debate here two years ago and you are doing that now. It is solipsistic. I did it (found a “quality woman”) and you did it too, so what’s the problem? The problem is things have changed and there is a whole brave new world disorder with a helping old school Red Queen Hypothesis problems out there in 2017. “Quality Woman” is a construct and it is a trap.

    That is not to say that one can’t shoulder the burden of performance and attract a quality woman. I’m no less optimistic than I ever was, but the stars do have to align in order to get it right for the bulk of men in their strategy. That is why some of the guys here can’t be an example for other’s and guys like me should STFU when it comes to that mentality. It is not prescriptive. (Um Sorry?, mea culpa to the guys that have had the misfortune to hear me talk two years ago. I stand by everything I said before, but it’s not the right message for the Red Pill Brand. )

    The Misandry Bubble essay is pretty old in Manosphere years but it still rings true. Have you read it to keep up on the state of the Men’s Imperative Marko? Do you disagree with its themes?


    Abstract : The Western World has quietly become a civilization that has funny tainted the interaction between men and women, where the state forcibly transfers resources from men to women creating various perverse incentives for otherwise good women to inflict great harm onto their own families, and where male nature is vilified but female nature is celebrated. This is unfair to both genders, and is a recipe for a rapid civilizational decline and displacement, the costs of which will ultimately be borne by a subsequent generation of innocent women, rather than men, as soon as 2020.

    The a + b = c of saying that women are hypergamous (with the foibles of most men being blue pill and/or prone to become betatized in a LTR with Children) but a Quality woman (that special Unicorn) with psychological/spiritual ability to commit and stay in a relationship just isn’t logical. I mean I’m doing better than ever and so is my wife in the commitment department, but the logic doesn’t hold. It doesn’t discourage me or worry me about my burden of performance, it is just that it doesn’t actually happen in real life for more than a handful of guys. And there are only a handful of great Quality Women out there. The Unicorn Hypothesis.

    What flows from this is my old premise that when a man finds a fork in the road (Quality Woman) he should take it. That was what I did. Would I recommend that for my son who is 22 y.o.? Honestly, I don’t know. That’s his decision.

    I doubt he will be as skilled as he needs to be to pull it off. Would I prefer he pours all his guts into being a man with tactical virtues of strength, courage, mastery and honor among men? Sure. Is my 25 year old daughter a quality woman? Certainly. (She’s been dating a guy for two years). Who stands in a better position to make a decision for a LTR? Right, her. Because my son will always carry his burden of performance. She won’t.

    Does that discourage me? No. I’m a realist and a Stoic and Red Pill Aware. I’m not flying blindly. I’m not of the mindset that things will work out of their own accord. I’m of the mindset (that you are also in) that one has to make it work.

    “So commitment is conditional, but necessary. What are the “conditions”? In our hyper-individualist society (M and F), individuals will vary. In this culture, we get to choose — culture and law are permissive.”

    I’ve come to the realization, that that is just something that someone intellectual and has it made (like myself and yourself Marko) would say. A guy still has to fight for his right to be good at being a man.

    A guy still has to undergo masculine self improvement while working in a framework (Good Frame) of enlightened self interest.

    I still like the Deida third stage, that it is rare to be able to attain. And my perfect example of this is Blaximus’ last two years of commentary (I totally think I’m above a level in it where I need to be and I totally think other commenters are there–but because of lack of divulging personal feelings–it is not clear labeling. You guys know who you are who are in a great place.)

    I found a more cohesive summary of Deida’s three stages here. (I don’t think a guy should aspire to Stage or Level 2, The 50/50 model, which is where I find fault with your goals Marko.)


    What I take from this Deida three stage thing, is a guy has to have Mastery to be free and release himself into lack of constraint. It really is the Sentient DPA and Platinum rule kind of stuff.

    In Summary, I don’t want to be dismissive of your thoughts Marko and you are doing a great job of being a foil for what Rollo has been talking about for over a decade. You are doing a good job of expressing your not quite formulated hypothesis.Just don’t turn your thoughts into ideology rather than praxeology. Rollo’s stuff is extraordinarily unique and some of it you either don’t accept or have not understand what it means as a basis for praxeology (not how to do it but what it means a basis for formulating a man’s own script).

    And I totally agree with GW on respecting The Bell Curve in men and women in this debate.

    And GW’s statement about Alan Watt’s philosophy is what Deida is exactly saying about Third Stage Masculine practice. Dismiss Deida all you want guys, Watts says it the same way in a more abstract way. After you Do It in your Burden of Performance, you better damn well be able to just Be In The Moment like Blaximus. Otherwise your missing out on life being Beautiful.

  27. GW
    We also know that different girls find different combinations of looks, manner, behavior, more or less alpha than others, with some common themes underlying these.

    Who’s “we”? Women’s attraction triggers are pretty well known, just go to the nearest chain bookstore and look at the romance fiction. Or read Nancy Friday’s books. Or learn about Game.
    It’s men that tend to have different and wider ranging tastes, thus ensuring that even fatties can reproduce. Just look at the range of porn online. Sure, most of it is ordinary PiV sex with a willing woman [*] but the further you look the more variations you find. No matter what a woman looks or smells like, there’s a man who will be attracted to her. She may not be attracted to him, though, because her range of triggers is smaller than his

    This is basic stuff. It’s not complicated, to red pill men. Blue pill men and women find it a mystery. It’s pretty obvious what “Marko”, which are you?

    [*] Note to lurkers, especially feminists and churchgoers: what does it say about American women that men are willing to pay money to watch a vid of two people having sexual intercourse with some oral thrown in on the side where the woman is acting enthused, or at least not too bored? What does it say when flesh and blood women can’t compete with 2-D images on a screen…not in the “perfect body” sense (there are few to none on screen) but in the “ready and willing” or “mindset” sense?

  28. kfg
    My ax says, “Yeah, I got yer social philosophy right here, Buddy,

    Is that axe speaking Frankly?

  29. In fact, this is a problem. I start dating a chick, and within DAYS women start referring to her as “your wife”. Clearly my frame is fucked up, but maybe it’s an angle I can play to my advantage.


    Her: Your wife?
    You: One of them.

  30. Marko

    YOU be THAT guy that gets one to commit, and then do good continuous training to keep her that way and get better and better.

    Of course being this kind of guy obviates most of your ‘QW” list…

  31. GW

    What’s that even mean? Nobody who knows me for two minutes doubts either my confidence, nor my competency, nor the fact I don’t suffer fools. I just apparently look/act like a husband.

    Side story – my divorce cost me my job and permanently my relationship with my elderly parents. The couple of years have been tough, I was recently in a donut shop, down to my last $50, and I saw a sign that read “No WIC – cash only.” So of course I ask the lady “hey, you take WIC, right?”

    She smiled and said “no, but it doesn’t matter. You got money.” Little did she know that I actually qualify for a max benefit food stamp benefit.

    She responds

  32. @Anon, I was referring to what (I think) Rollo called a “contextual alpha”. He had a post (I think Rollo) where a pasty white guy was this asian girl’s dream alpha and she followed him all over the world.
    I had a early 30s MILF at work go that way for me…like total slave-like worship with zero effort or asking on my part. This went on for months. I knew her husband, who was nice, strong at work, beta as heck at home (read romance novels…). This was before RP, though I can see how she thought me as alpha. In that context of work, educating Execs at major banks, I was very confident and assertive. All I am saying is that all men in all situations are not rated the same way by every woman.

  33. Dizzle
    Side story – my divorce cost me my job and permanently my relationship with my elderly parents.

    Crap. Really ugly when frivorce screws up things with a man’s parents.

    She responds

    ‘Course she does!

    “They are all girls” – Blaximus

  34. GW
    All I am saying is that all men in all situations are not rated the same way by every woman.

    Well, in one way that makes sense. But in another way, it could become a buffer if you let it, of the “Oh, I’m not her type” sort. Ask Sentient, Blaximus, HABD or other men if that “I’m not her type” thing is real or just a figment.

  35. @Dizzle I was/am in a high distraction environment here, so was terse.

    I simply meant if you act more cad (selfish, demanding, indifferent, but good natured), you may get to change that image a bit. Insert more danger/dread is what my instinct tells me based on the little perspective I gleaned from your comment.

  36. “Is that axe speaking Frankly?”

    Indeed it is. My father’s ancestors always found it to enhance certain breeding opportunities, even if sometimes they were a bit Gauling as a result of their travels. The record doesn’t seem to show that they spent much time Rhining about it and they cast their Seine widely.

    Here’s an artist’s rendition of great . . . great grandad going on Tours:


  37. @ScribblerG February 18, 2017 at 4:08 pm

    She’s just parlaying her value. Putting on a show for $.

    She has value. Women with beauty have value. She has some beauty.

    It’s just that the market is overpaying for her.

    She rises to her level of incompetence in relationship game. How the hell did that happen? Oh wait, it happens to humans all the time.

    I don’t get Angry MGTOW’s concern. It’s just Grief stages short of Acceptance.

    She admits her own level of incompetence.

    She is Hypergamy personified.

    I just see ‘The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine’ all over again.

    I totally reject the message of Angry MGTOW. (I don’t reject the message of KFG’s MGTOW. KFG is not angry, he’s in Acceptance Alan Watt’s Style. Big difference there.)

    I don’t think a man should should settle. That sets up a paradox of the fact that the more a man doesn’t settle for a HB8+ (which I’m an advocate of) the more he runs into her shit show.

    I don’t think a man should go MGTOW, jack off, play video games, learn physics (although a man should know physics because it is cool). And not even try to pursue the Emily’s (like in the video).

    Being red pill aware, I don’t get Angry MGTOW’s rant at the end. Sweden isn’t red pill aware.
    I thought you gave up on MGTOW.

    This also goes to performance for dollars. Milo Yianopolous does it, Emily in the video does it and Angry MGTOW is doing it.

    So what is the take home message from that video? Nothing we aren’t already aware of. It is illustrative of already know shit.

    What are you/we going to do about it?

    “No valid plans for the future can be made by those who have no capacity for living now.” Focus on you and focus on “Now”!

  38. @SJF – My purpose in sharing the vid was hearing a women express hypergamous conflict and cock-blind madness so clearly. I noted the following aspects:

    1. She is aiming very high. As a 33yoish carousel rider, she’s delusional. Alphas ride her with no promises, fitting her in around the under 25yos.

    2. She’s addicted to the thrill of new dick. Cock carousel riding has it’s costs, like grooving in a neurological payoff from behavior and pleasure very deeply. Look at how excited she gets when she talks about that special kind of attraction, lol, it’s all about lust for her. But sadly, she doesn’t have the words for it.

    3. I know she’s lying about the amount of dick. By a lot. A decent looking woman like her? Note how she just riffles through the relationships but mentions no hookups. There is a class of women like her out there, hotties who get a ton of dick and it changes them. You know how we see the studies of women who have 10, 20, 30 partners? I’m talking women who’ve fucked/sucked hundreds of guys. They are out there and by this age they are addled by it. They cannot make provider selection work at all, and they cannot lock down the high end alpha, he pumps and dumps them. They get stuck in this loop of selection misfires and are baffled by it – while causing it all. Ask me how I know this – my HB9…

    I’ve learned more about Game and the Red Pill by listening to women speak and watching how they act than by reading blogs. Men should recognize the Emily Hart archetype and beware. Cockblind wall hitters are fun to fuck but are emotionally unstable. Note her reference to her mental health issues that are supposedly behind her, lol, ya, sure. And I wonder, was there any sexual “acting out” in those 4 years of no relationships?

    She’s good for a plate but she’ll be high maintenance and will flame out eventually. If I’m right about how much of a slut she really is, then she’s probably a bit of a nymphomaniac, and they are lots of fun to fuck, errr, perhaps the most fun kind of girl to fuck of all, but they should have a label: “Contents Volatile: You Could Blow Your Dick/Head Off”…

    What’s most obvious about Emily is how conflicted she is and how well she’s internalized and actualized the FI script. Notice how she presents herself, a bit of “anti-beauty’, which is something a 22yo cutie can get away with but doesn’t work so well for the mid-30s cockblind, epiphanous, wall hitting uber-slut. That look is something hot girls do as a status display. By actually intentionally shedding SMV via a dowdy look they emphasize their still high status. It’s akin to “humble-bragging”.

    SJWs and others have a particular form of this in which they adopt a peasant style of dress, but usually the peasant clothes are not so cheap. And they are selected with great care, lol…but i digress.

    I’ve also seen this among other hot nymphos, they dress down to keep the sexual attraction from men down so they are less tempted.

    Okay, yes, I am speculating a bit but I find that reading women is very important.

    Re: AngryMgtow – I wonder if he has any sense of how he limits his agency by staying in petulant, feckless rage? It’s not that I don’t get that there is a “valid” reason to be pissed off, it’s that I think it’s a self-destructive place to stand. That emotionally laden mindset would retard my advance towards me getting what I want.

    But I’m starting to hear him and other MGTOW differently as what I now also hear is a keening lament for a lost world and social order. It’s a deep expression of the existential angst one must experience after swallowing the Red Pill.

    Of course, my point is what does one do next? This made all the difference for me. Simple answer? My rage was in direct proportion to my ego investments in Blue Pill beliefs. My raging was also a buffer to protect my ego, because it was so hard to face how I’d deluded myself, at how badly I’d distracted myself from the truth. It’s a bit of self violence to internalize such negative views of your self, and being angry at having it done to yourself is an expected reaction.

    That state of being fed a script of me being imperfect somehow, always needing to fix myself, needing to get somewhere before I get to be who I want and have what I want, was given me by the FI Blue Pill Beta script. Not self-improvement in a selfish way, for my ends, but rather improvement in a way that had me restrain and suppress my sexual appetites and interests and funneled my energy into “productive” income earning work. I heard a sales VP say it once in a talk he gave, back before PC had taken over corp America, “Give me a room full of insecure men and I will give you a sales force”.

    The “earn it” script is a mindfuck, no doubt. And particularly for a man who’s not had much sex but is having it lorded all around him nonstop, well it’s a kind of existential torture. And then you come to the Red Pill and are told that it’s your fault? That you are a “beta” and have internalized a script that prioritizes female sexual strategies? Even worse, that sexual strategies are a bit of a zero sum game, that in order for one to succeed the other must fail? And that you’ve been socially conditioned to serve her sexual strategies, not your’s?

    Any righteous man must be outraged once he discovers this. But real freedom comes when you drop the “Earn it” script. Earn what? This fucking world isn’t “fair”, but it is a game. You don’t win by being “good”, you win by being smart and playing the game towards your own ends. The rewiring of a mind previously attuned to vacillate between inchoate rage due to a lifetime of suppressed appetites and agency, and servile “good man” scripts is no mean task though. It nearly killed me. Most men will never do so.

    It can be done though. For me it began with a simple thought, “Why can’t I have whatever I want?” While I’d already realized I liked to have sex with younger women, the BP script had shamed me for it. I was felt like I was “creepy”, lol. Now? I embrace my inner creep. If a creep is who I am, being a creep is a-okay with me. And while there are other things, there was something utterly empowering about fully claiming and owning and expressing my sexual agency with no shame. At a fundamental level, it shifted who I was. And my anger just diffused.

    But ya gotta learn what’s really running things first and then deprogram. I find that watching women unspool it all for you is quite like the Wizard of Oz being revealed behind the curtain.

    Early Sunday morning here, sun up over the lake, bitter taste of french roast lingering, hmmmm, all is right with the world.

  39. Excellent explanation Scribbler. And congratulations arriving at: “hmmmm, all is right with the world”. What a remarkable transformation of your mindset in the last two years. We all know how that happened: You did the work.

    This explanation also plays into the fact that the quality woman paradox of 2017. Wonder if Marko would dismiss the differences in women in today’s society when trying to find a unicorn for a LTR and the need to adapt to the conditions at hand.

    Seems you did a good job of applying Fight Club Rules Scribbler….


    Tyler’s First Rule of Innovation:

    “No fear. No distractions.
    The ability to let that which does not matter truly slide.”

    This is the most important lesson, and it’s the one people struggle with and resist. Tim Ferris advocates the 80/20 rule of productivity, where you focus relentlessly on the 20% of the actions that lead to 80% of the return. People see this as nice in theory, but not practical.
    But believe it or not, this is how I’ve been running my businesses for the last 10 years. I used to actually feel guilty because I wasn’t constantly “getting things done” at a maniacal pace, even though I was enjoying increasingly significant success each year. It’s only been in the last few years I’ve realized that this approach is essential for entrepreneurs and creative professionals of all stripes.

    The 80/20 rule of productivity requires radical elimination, or letting that which does not matter to creative moves truly slide. Use that newfound time for creative thinking that leads to innovative action and you will succeed, guaranteed.

    Tyler’s Second Rule of Innovation:

    “No fear! No distractions!
    The ability to let that which does not matter truly slide!”

    Seriously. Don’t break the first two rules.

    Tyler’s Third Rule of Innovation:

    “I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let’s evolve, let the chips fall where they may.”
    Let’s face it, when we break Tyler’s first two rules of innovation and distract ourselves with foolish productivity, it’s often because we’re afraid (which also violates Tyler’s first two rules). We’re afraid of failure, ridicule, risk, mediocrity, and perhaps even success itself.

    If you’re going to evolve and grow as a creative person, you’re going to make mistakes. In fact, you should start making twice as many mistakes as soon as possible if you want to have an innovative breakthrough.

    Make mistakes and let the chips fall where they may. You might like the landing.

    Tyler’s Fourth Rule of Innovation:

    “It’s only after we’ve lost everything that we’re free to do anything.”
    Oh, yeah… don’t be afraid to make big mistakes. More importantly, don’t worry about everything going according to plan. In fact, if everything’s going according to plan, there’s a good chance nothing remarkable is getting done.

    They say life is what happens while you’re making other plans. Innovation is what happens when you recognize when to change the plan and perhaps the entire game. Maybe your initial plan falls apart, or maybe you simply need to throw the current plan away.

    Don’t let the plan restrict the freedom to have a game-changing idea, and act on it, at any time. Losing everything may be the best thing that ever happens to you.

    Tyler’s Fifth Rule of Innovation:

    “You’re not your job. You’re not how much money you have in the bank. You’re not the car you drive. You’re not the contents of your wallet. You’re not your fu*king khakis.”

    When we talk about fear, risk, mistakes, and losing it all, what are we really afraid of? Are we defined by the stuff we own, or would we prefer to be defined by what we accomplish and create for the world?

    I’m not saying give all your stuff away or take foolish risks that harm your family or yourself. I’m saying don’t let the stuff you own start to own you to the point that you can’t live the life you want to live and do the things you want to do.

    Tyler’s Sixth Rule of Innovation:

    “People do it everyday, they talk to themselves… they see themselves as they’d like to be, they don’t have the courage you have, to just run with it.”

    I bet you’ve got a great idea right now, bouncing around in your head. What are you going to do with it?

    Be what you’d like to be, and do what you’d like to do… it really is that simple. Having the courage to just run with it is the difference between a fulfilling life and a life full of regret.

    Tyler’s Seventh Rule of Innovation:

    “Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.”
    On the other hand, wearing black hipster clothing and hanging in cafes smoking Gaulloises cigarettes does not make you creative. Buying a MacBook Pro and an iPhone doesn’t get it done either.

    Creativity and innovation are mainly about hard work. It’s about constantly coming up with ideas and thinking through problems instead of vegging out. And it’s about taking action, plain and simple.

    Tyler’s Eighth Rule of Innovation:

    “This is your life, and it’s ending one minute at a time.”

    First, you have to know, not fear, know that someday you are going to die. Until you know that, you have no sense of urgency. You think you have all the time in the world to do amazing things, but you may not live to see that particular someday.

    So quit reading articles for a bit and go do what really needs to be done today.

  40. This girl in the video generates the money and traffic she does because she’s feeding red meat to a demographic that craves indignation vicariously through her, and her audience can intimately relate with. She gets the numbers she does because there are millions of women in her cohort who are experiencing or have experienced exactly her self-inflicted predicament. And, like her, they are all at a phase of maturity where it’s more satisfying to lay the blame at the feet of men than ever allow an afterthought of insight enter her head.

    She is a textbook example of the Epiphany Phase I outline in Preventive Medicine. If you want to see what this woman’s next rationale will be in 3-5 years read Validation Hunting and The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:


    This is the trap women find themselves in, but like everything else in a feminine-primary social order, there’s another set of social conventions ready to help her cope with the consequences of the decisions she’s made for herself. So rather than develop any self-critical insight about her decisions, the F.I. tells her it’s men’s fault and laugh it off.

  41. OK, guys here don’t want to confer re Long Game. As SJF says, quoting Alan Watts: “No valid plans for the future can be made by those who have no capacity for living now.” Focus on you and focus on “Now”! Good advice to a point, but you might want to look up how that worked out long-term for Watts. (He died at 58 of alcoholism.)

    @ Rollo: Say it, Rollo, “We don’t want to talk/write about long-game implications now.” OK, but don’t you think so many guys currently posting would find such a topic necessary and interesting?
    Your forthcoming book is on child-rearing, as I understand it. Looking forward to it, as I’m grandchild-rearing now.
    Maybe your fourth book will be on empty-nest issues, when you get to that stage.

    One life-cycle dealt with at a time — I understand that. Not dealing with life-cycle issues you haven’t experienced yet. I understand that. Stating it that way, your policy is probably best. Now that I write this, I vaguely remember your stating that this was your policy, and why.

    @SJF Wonder if Marko would dismiss the differences in women in today’s society when trying to find a unicorn for a LTR and the need to adapt to the conditions at hand.

    Re the question that things are much harder now to find QWs, with the good traits, willing and able (those last two are different traits!) to commit. I agree that it is harder.
    Thus, “Don’t wish it were easier, make yourself better.”

    QW exist, unicorns don’t. What percent, compared to 50 (!) years ago? Dunno. But there are millions and millions of prospects out there — abundance! — so find them. Foreknowledge — which TRM and other manosphere sites give entree to — of hypergamy, non-oneitis, non-pedestalizing, betaization, the permanent need for game, etc., are essential, to vet accurately in today’s situation. These insights are gold.

    @Sentient: Marko
    YOU be THAT guy that gets one to commit, and then do good continuous training to keep her that way and get better and better.
    Of course being this kind of guy obviates most of your ‘QW” list

    Actually, non-obviate. My wife and I explicitly put in the wedding vows we wrote ourselves that we would help each other become our best selves. Being willing to make such a commitment is one of the tells for QW (and QM).

    But it does bring to mind the story: “There was a man who was determined to marry only the perfect woman. So he searched all the world, for years and years, and he finally found her! But, alas, she was looking for the perfect man, and rejected him.”
    QW/QM is not about “perfect” or “unicorn.” But it is about “quality.”

    @Rollo Were you implying that the guy in your example really didn’t learn anything after his first divorce, marrying in an illusion of “Quality” for a second time? Or that he learned something, and did a much better vetting job second time around? IRL, both things happen, of course.

    @Rollo. What are your thoughts on “commitment” both Male and Female, in LTR and marriage? I don’t think one can deal with the depths of marriage or LTR without exploring the complexities of commitment.

  42. ” . . . guys here don’t want to confer re Long Game.”

    See the last year’s worth of comments and note that although game has relevance to the topic of this site, it isn’t a game site.


    See the man who has been, over the past year or so, the most ardent supporter of LTR in a “to the victor go the spoils Darwinian” mode on TRM.

    “My wife and I explicitly put in the wedding vows . . .”

    See Briffault’s Law.

    “Rollo. What are your thoughts on “commitment” . . .”

    See The Rational Male. I mean really, do you even TRM, Bro? Maybe you should lurk moar.

    “Nothing sadder then a beauty watching the last few grains of sand slip out of the glass and having nothing at all to show for it but regret.”

    See Pam Anderson.

  43. Quality is not very easy to pin down. Robert Pirsig investigated it philosophically at one point in his life. The price he paid was to be labeled clinically paranoid schizophrenic and clinically depressed. When he psychologically healed from that (and he snapped out of it pretty damn well with the help of ECT, and his brain wasn’t so scrambled later on) he wrote about the Metaphysics of Quality in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance. Quality comes before everything in this dualistic life, not after the fact.

    It is not a problem in searching for quality, it is a problem that variables get in the way of keeping quality in inter-sexual relationships.



    “Dynamic Quality cannot be defined. It can only be understood intellectually through the use of analogy.”
    Dan Glover, Lila’s Child: An Inquiry Into Quality

    “Quality,” or “value,” as described by Pirsig, cannot be defined because it empirically precedes any intellectual construction of it, namely due to the fact that quality (as Pirsig explicitly defines it) exists always as a perceptual experience before it is ever thought of descriptively or academically. Quality is the “knife-edge” of experience, found only in the present, known or at least potentially accessible to all of “us”. (Plato’s Phaedrus, 258d). Equating it with the Tao, Pirsig postulates that Quality is the fundamental force in the universe stimulating everything from atoms to animals to evolve and incorporate ever greater levels of Quality. According to the MOQ, everything (including ideas, and matter) is a product and a result of Quality.

    Static quality patterns and dynamic quality

    The MOQ maintains that quality itself is undefinable (Tao), but to better understand it, Pirsig breaks quality down into two (“knife-edge”) forms: static quality patterns (patterned) and dynamic quality (unpatterned). The four patterns of static value as well as dynamic quality account exhaustively for all of (“knife-edged”) reality. As the initial (cutting edge) dynamic quality becomes habituated, it turns into static patterns (viz. data, expectations). It is important to note that Pirsig is not proposing a duality: quality is one, “every last bit of it”, yet manifests itself differently. Rather than dualism, this manifestation of quality in terms of dynamic and static aspects represents a dialectical monism.

    Dynamic quality

    Dynamic quality cannot be defined. It can only be understood intellectually through the use of analogy. It can be described as the force of change in the universe; when an aspect of quality becomes habitual or customary, it becomes static. Pirsig calls dynamic quality “the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality” because it can be recognized before it can be conceptualized. This is why the dynamic beauty of a piece of music can be recognized before a static analysis explaining why the music is beautiful can be constructed.

    Static quality patterns

    Pirsig defines static quality as everything which can be defined. Everything found in a dictionary, for instance, is static quality. These static forms, if they have enough high or low quality, are given names and are interchanged with other “people”, building the base of knowledge for a culture. So some cultures divide between things other cultures perceive as equal (Pirsig gave as example the sounds of the Indian syllables “dha” and “da,” which are absolutely equal to western ears), and some cultures haven’t any words for a specific meaning at all (the exact meaning of the German word “verklemmt” cannot be translated into English). Pirsig divides static quality into inorganic, biological, social, and intellectual patterns, in ascending order of morality.

    Inorganic patterns: non-living things

    Biological patterns: living things

    Social patterns: behaviors, habits, rituals, institutions.

    Intellectual patterns: ideas

    Pirsig describes evolution as the moral progression of these patterns of value. For example, a biological pattern overcoming an inorganic pattern (e.g. bird flight which overcomes gravity) is a moral thing because a biological pattern is a higher form of evolution. Likewise, an intellectual pattern of value overcoming a social one (e.g. Civil Rights) is a moral development because intellect is a higher form of evolution than society. Therefore, decisions about one’s conduct during any given day can be made using the Metaphysics of Quality. It is important to note that Pirsig is not proposing criticism or responsibility, but acceptance, and pure absorption:

    “When he wrote it he felt momentary fright and was about to strike out the words “All of it. Every last bit of it.” Madness there. I think he saw it. But he couldn’t see any logical reason to strike these words out and it was too late now for faintheartedness. He ignored his warning and let the words stand.”-ZMM, Ch.20

    “Good is a noun. That was it. That was what Phaedrus had been looking for. That was the homer, over the fence, that ended the ball game. Good as a noun rather than as an adjective is all the Metaphysics of Quality is about. Of course, the ultimate Quality isn’t a noun or an adjective or anything else definable, but if you had to reduce the whole Metaphysics of Quality to a single sentence, that would be it.”-Lila, The End

    “The language we’ve inherited confuses this. We say “my” body and “your” body and “his” body and “her” body, but it isn’t that way. … This Cartesian “Me,” this autonomous little homunculus who sits behind our eyeballs looking out through them in order to pass judgment on the affairs of the world, is just completely ridiculous. This self-appointed little editor of reality is just an impossible fiction that collapses the moment one examines it.”-ZMM, Ch.15

    “Another immoral way of killing the static patterns is to pass the patterns to someone else, in what Phaedrus called a ‘karma dump.’ … If you take all this karmic garbage and make yourself feel better by passing it on to others that’s normal. That’s the way the world works. But if you manage to absorb it and not pass[editor’s emboldening] it on, that’s the highest moral conduct of all.”-Lila, Ch.32

  44. @kfg, heheh, I think I mention in the Mark Baxter show how I was getting challenged on some forums by guys who quoted my own work, not knowing who it was they were responding to.

    I’m like “damn, who is this Rollo guy, I need to look him up now.”

  45. RE: Emily Hart Video

    Who cares what this woman, or the angry mgtow has to say, really? I mean, c’mon….who gives a fuck and why?

    Fellas, FOCUS. Remember, billions of people on the planet. Don’t get sidetracked by nonsensical gobbledygook. Nothing about this video is important to a man’s self improvement. Learn to ignore.

    The problem is, society traps men in the FI soundstage. This is a huge part of men’s problem. Recognize it and break yourself free. Idgaf how much money she makes fucking about, Don’t count other folks money. Personally, most highly paid people are not worth their salaries, lol.

    I skipped through some of the video, but I could not find it anywhere in my heart to give a single fuck about anything this broad has to say, or the angry dude commenting about the video. He might as well have been talking about the latest Kardashian escapade ( which I don’t give a fuck about either ).

    This trend where average motherfuckers with a youtube channel become somehow important is amazingly laughable and part and parcel of why society is much like a rudderless boat.

    Keep perspective. This bitch didn’t matter last week, and she won’t matter going forward, unless one chooses to rent her space inside your head.

  46. There is a V Day for men: March 14, Steak-and-Blowjob day. All we need now is for the consumer media to officially recognize its equalist mindset.

  47. I find it interesting how “St. Valentine’s Day” became “Valentine’s Day”. I’ll bet if you were to ask a young person on the street who “Valentine” was you would probably get a confused look in return. It kind of reminds me of how the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. became Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I shouldn’t be too surprised. I’ve met more than a few secular families who “celebrate Christmas”, yet their kids have pretty much no idea of who Jesus of Nazareth is; nor what his connection is with Christmas.

    Interesting world we live in. Or as the Professor asks in the Narnia Chronicles, just what do they teach children at school?

  48. Married for 26 years. I haven’t bought a Valentine’s anything in probably 20 years. My wife ‘gets’ it. “Why are you supposed to love me more one day out of the year?”. We don’t play the game and don’t celebrate a silly Hallmark holiday.

  49. We’ve had this poll on my blog on choices to buy your girlfriend this very day. (in a mall town somewhere, perhaps in Spain or elsewhere, V-Day is called Vaca’s Day aka Cow’s Day.)

    Here were the forefront choices:

    A bag of sunflower deeds.
    A nicely wrapped (in specialized gift paper) condom.
    A frisbee.
    A picture of younger you, in tights or naked, in a frame or professional canvas (could be B&Ws)

    Happy V-Day !

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