When I first published the comparative SMV graph a few years ago one of the first criticisms was that the age comparisons between men and women seemed too concrete and too specific to contemporary times. I tried to make concessions for this then, but when I was writing that post it was at first meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. Still, I try to write with the presupposition that critics will take things either too literally or too figuratively. I knew that the literati then and now would think, “…well, yes it’s a good outline, but you’re looking at the SMV from the perspective of 2012 and society was much different 50, 70, 100, 2,000 years ago so this graph is flawed…”
My SMV graph was never meant to be some canonical tablet handed to me from the almighty. I thought of it then, and still think of it now, as a very good workable outline for how men and women’s comparative SMV relates to the other. This has been borne out in many other statistics from individual studies sent to me by readers or just my coming across them since I created that graph.
That said, and in relation to where I’m going with this Adaptations series, those critics aren’t wrong to suggest that this outline would be subject to the social environments and simple physical realities of earlier times, and likely some times yet to come.
Take what I’m about to delve into here with a bit of salt; I’m not a historian. One of my favorite figures from the civil war ear was Colonel Robert Gould Shaw. If you’ve seen the movie Glory you know who I’m referencing here. This young man was 23 when he enlisted and 25 when he was promoted to Major and then Colonel. In that time Shaw saw some pretty grisly shit, including the battle of Antietam.
I’d seen the movie when it first came out in 1989, but after watching it again for a class assignment I had a new appreciation for the real man who was Robert Shaw. I saw the film using what was just becoming my Red Pill lens. It struck me that the realities of that era forced men to become Men much sooner than men do today. The realities of our times give us a leisure the men of Shaw’s age simple couldn’t imagine. The realities of that time necessitated a quick maturation to bear the burden of heavy responsibilities. Those burdens were much more imperative then, but a 23 year old is still a 23 year old.
I thought about how I’d spent my own years between the ages of 23-25 when I was at the peak of my semi-rock star tail chasing in the late 80’s Hollywood scene. I began to really think about the differences in the social and physical environments of the 1860s and the 1980s-90s. I’ve always joked that men don’t become Men until they’re 30. Even on the SMV graph the point at which I attribute men’s real ascendency to their peak SMV at around age 30, but this wasn’t always the case in the past.
Men (comparatively) live longer lives as a result of health and medical advances, but (at least in westernizing culture) it takes much more time and personal investment, as well as acculturation for men to realize their personal potential. Men’s burden of performance wasn’t much different in prior eras, but the timeframe necessary to reach a man’s peak potential was much more accelerated.
So to address the concerns of the temporal critics of the SMV graph, yes, this graph might look a bit different to the men and women of the 19th century. Considering lifespans of the era and the social conditions then, the ages during which a woman would reach her own peak might be around 17, and a man’s may be 25, however the same curves of the bell wouldn’t change drastically. Men adapted to the conditions their environment dictated to them then in much the same way they did before and after the sexual revolution. And this adaptation came as the result of what was expected of them as their burden of performance, as well as what their social leisures would permit them.
Love American Style
Into the 70’s the new social contract of the Free Love generation began to take a new shape. Bear in mind that this new equalitarian contract was based on the hopeful presumption that both sexes would mutually honor the “what’s on the inside is what counts” normalization of attraction. Under this contract women’s Hypergamous natures could flourish, while men’s unlimited access sexual strategy could ostensibly be realized.
Of course these lofty, higher-consciousness, presumptions were meant to supersede human nature and an evolved sexual arousal function based on human biology. One thing that still thwarts ideological feminism today is that its perceived goal states contradict human beings’ natural states. This contradiction gets narratively blamed on men not wanting to cooperate with feminism, but even the most ardent feminist is still guilty of her own biology and arousal triggers contradicting herself.
Biology trumps conviction. People get fidgety when I apply this in a religious context, but it’s equally applicable to feminism and really any ideology that under-appreciates human nature and the realities of its conditions.
As the new sexual landscape began to solidify, men began to adapt their own sexual strategies to the conditions of this fast and loose environment. Just prior to the Disco Generation hardcore pornography began its path to the ubiquitous porn we know today. The sexual restraint necessitated by the realities of prior generations loosened in light of widespread hormonal birth control and safe(er) legal abortion.
While Hypergamy was effectively unleashed, the women of this era hadn’t fully grasped the scope of it being so or what it would become. Acceptable premarital sex, abortion and unilaterally feminine controlled birth control meant that women had an unprecedented degree of control over their Hypergamous decision making. I doubt many women of the time understood this, but the only real control men had (and still have now) over women’s breeding and birthing outcomes was now grounded in the psychological (Game) or the physical (arousal). Provisioning was still a consideration for women, but the division between short-term and long-term pairing became more stark.
As I mentioned here in the beginning, a slowing of the maturation process was the inevitable result of women’s freedom of Hypergamous choice. Short-term Alpha Fucks no longer posed the same societal and personal risks of a pre-birth control generation, thus long-term pairing choices (Beta bucks) began to be delayed. The ideological cover story was one of women expecting men to “love their insides” despite their age, psychological baggage or physical condition.
Women’s preoccupation with The Wall was ostensibly mitigated by the Free Love social contract that men would honor their end of the higher-consciousness equalitarian dream of a mutually agreed attraction based on intrinsic qualities. The biological realities for both sexes was much different.
Women trusted they could be sexually ‘free’ without social stigmatization, but the reality was that the long-term needs of Hypergamy could be postponed in what would eventually become a Sandbergian sexual strategy. The more Alpha men of the time – ones in touch with the visceral nature of women and themselves – understood the incredibly boon this represented to them.
It’s important to bear in mind that Hypergamy was not the openly embraced dynamic it’s come into today. Thus, the unspoken, secretive nature of Hypergamy was something a man who ‘just got it’ instinctively understood and women were aroused by it.
During the 70s ‘Macho’ men began to adapt to a new paradigm. They adapted to the reality that women were conflicted by the Free Love paradigm. These men embraced both the sexual openness expected of women, but they also understood that in spite of the social contract of love being based on intrinsic qualities, women still wanted to fuck (with abandon) the men with extrinsic arousal triggering qualities. The physical began to take priority above the emotional pretentiousness.
The macho quality could take different forms. Whether is was the good ole boy of the south or the Tony Manero at Studio 54, understanding the mindset is what’s important here.
Macho men in the discos and key parties of the 70s figured out they could ‘Game’ the old paradigm of non-exclusivity paired with birth control by re-embracing (with disco era gusto) a masculinity that had been abandoned just a decade earlier. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality was for men who overtly challenged the Free Love preconditions. They enjoyed the rewards of its expectations of women while rebounding off the self-expectations of the Beta men who were still cooperating with the Free Love social contract.
This era is an interesting parallel to our own. I think much of the Red Pill resentment coming from men still plugged into a Blue Pill mindset is rooted in a similar perception that they’re playing by an acceptable set of rules that “men with Game” are exploiting for their own selfish ends. What they don’t realize is that their Blue Pill interpretations are a designed part of a social paradigm that supports feminine primacy. Game works because, like the macho men of the 70s, it’s primarily based on women’s inborn psychology and the visceral realities of women’s biological impulses.
Beta men in the 70s still believed that the Free Love mindset was equally and mutually beneficial for both sexes since it was supposedly based on a freedom from performance for themselves while freeing women from sexual repression and (covertly) from the reality of the Wall. In reality the Free Love paradigm put men at a disadvantage by giving women almost total control of Hypergamy and the time in which to realize short term mating and long term provisioning.
So these men’s resentment of the Alphas of the era is understandable when you consider that their visceral attractiveness was observably and behaviorally arousing to women who were supposed to idealistically love them for who they were not what they were. These men represented a return to that burden of performance they’d hoped to avoid in the Free Love contract.
These Alpha men understood women’s base impulses then, and that understanding became an integral part of their “just getting it” attraction. However, as we’ll see in the next part of this series, these men would eventually become the butt of their own joke as the Feminine Imperative fluidly transitioned into a new social paradigm of Fem-powerment developing in the 80s and reaching its apex in the 90s.
The arousing ‘macho’ men, the Alphas of the era, would systematically become the most ridiculed parodies and caricatures of masculinity as women came into a better understanding of the power they were only beginning to realize and the Beta men took their perceived revenge. And likewise men adapted to this new paradigm based on the same visceral reality women’s sexuality is fundamentally based on.
[…] Adaptations – Part II […]
4th paragraph, I think you meant to write “era”, not “ear”. Other than that, fascinating article.
Dude, you gotta post part 3! I did not realize you were older and more experienced than I am, I just assumed you were an early thirties guy who learned fast with the aid of the internet era. Now I gotta reread your stuff again….
The US Changed dramatically Jan. 27, 1973
With the end of the draft you had tons of young men who never ever had exposure to male style military discipline.
If you want to know why the 80s were different you can look at that. AND Thriller an album done by some guy named Michael.
Dead on about the times may change, but the song (relative SMV peaks) remains the same. My biggest mistake as a boy was to develop ‘one-itis’ – twice, once in High School, once in College – with girls from the same year (who were 5 & 11 months older than I). I was aware that I was indirectly competing with older guys who had ‘more to offer’, but I though they would appreciate me as a peer, and that going below my age/class was fishing for a ‘less-developed’ girl. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. I should have chasing and pumping as many… Read more »
@Anubis That’s great you don’t give an inch away from yourself. Stay strong “I should have chasing and pumping as many younger gals as I could game. But oh no, the way to be I though was to be ‘above all that’ and find someone who would ‘mutually honor what’s on the inside’ as Rollo so well put it.” You know me as well. I saw many girls in high school get to have fun getting banged by the alpha studs I was destroyed daily for even attemtijg to develope a personal to nail as many girls as possible. What… Read more »
What was the point in time when men had it easiest, so to speak?
I guess the answer involves an analysis of what men want/wanted. So I wonder, secondly, do men also want a more diverse range of sexual experience than they wanted before?
Do I state the bleeding obvious when I observe that prolonged education can only delay maturation – I mean for men. It is however worth remembering that the Romans (being aware of male impetuosity) delayed full male rights until the age of twenty-eight (twenty-one for females).
Part III please.
@bnon: The Alpha’s have always had it easiest, but it’s fair to say that pre-modern birth control, women in general had to be more careful because she couldn’t be sure than any f*ck wouldn’t produce a pregnancy. When I was a young, clueless, stupid boy of 21, I spent a year with an uncle who was a true Alpha and pus*sy hound. He was 6’3″, 60’s movie/TV star good looks/well endowed, played football in college, ex-air force, and was a commercial airline pilot in the 60s thru 80s, and introduced to chasing tail at 12 by his dad. He stopped… Read more »
Rollo – Solid Gold! Thank you.
Born in ’62, came of age in the late 70s, amidst this new sexual ethos. I think Rollo is quite right to focus on Beta revenge, and here’s why. The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that a big part of the what’s pissing off men is that the Beta strategy is less effective than ever. With women delaying settling down, and some remaining single, or childless or having less children and working in real careers, the entire need for Beta bux decreases and delays. You see Blue Pill strategy is a cheat for Beta… Read more »
Rollo, …the only real control men had (and still have now) over women’s breeding and birthing outcomes was now grounded in the psychological (Game) or the physical (arousal).
Not the only control. Men oft influence things by way of religion frowning upon abortion and birth control; some hold an absolute ban. Women are social creatures.
I’m wondering if there’s a nostalgia for an era that didn’t exist. There’s this notion that in the pre-feminist era just as the 60’s were ending that somehow men were tougher. There was no “Blue Pill” or “Mystery Method” there was the “cad” and the “Ruffian”…films started showing more Blue Pill guys, Remember MASH? Alan Alda’s Hawkeye was more Blue Pill despite banging chicks. I look at my own upbringing and it was in the midst of this that I started to look down on cads as losers but was also puzzled why girls seemed to go for these types… Read more »
NB – It may also be true that you don’t want to shoulder the burden of performance. That has been my lot, coming to the Red PIll after a massive loss of status/smv/standing due to illness and financial/career problems, at the age of 50 (now 52). It took me two years of the Red Pill to admit that I had given up. That I had concluded inside that was defeated. Fyi, this is why my daughter turned on me, Alpha Dad was simply gone. I had my reasons and some people even think they are good ones. But the truth… Read more »
And here is where your ’60s free love, equalist guy ended up. Notice how you have a visceral impulse to punch him on sight.
Oops, wrong embed code again, sorry.
One more try. http://i60.tinypic.com/2q99pax.jpg
Great post Scribblerg. I think betabux seems like a way out of the game for betas, but there is no escaping it. Be a winner, not a loser
“Do I state the bleeding obvious when I observe that prolonged education can only delay maturation – I mean for men. It is however worth remembering that the Romans (being aware of male impetuosity) delayed full male rights until the age of twenty-eight” You’re in good company then. My shed-book at the mo. is Montaigne’s Essays and I was about halfway through a couple of days ago. Remembered this bit. “Eudemonidas seeing Xenocrates very old laboriously apply himselfe in his schoole-lectures, said, When will this man know something, since he is yet learning?” … “A man may alwaies continue his… Read more »
@Tam – Well said. Indeed, there is a time for learning and a time for doing. As an aside, my time for “learning” Marxism was about 25 years ago, when I actually did…
Part of what is unnatural about all this is that I’m having to relearn stuff in my early 50s, it’s just backwards.
@bnon “So I wonder, secondly, do men also want a more diverse range of sexual experience than they wanted before?” I would say yes @opus “I mean for men. It is however worth remembering that the Romans (being aware of male impetuosity) delayed full male rights until the age of twenty-eight (twenty-one for females).” That’s interesting and rational are brains develop fully around that time as well. @anubis “He only had his own self-taught experiences to learn from and little teaching. Today we have an unprecedented collective learning and information dissemination going on.” That will help so many people living… Read more »
You wanna talk adaptations and past vs. present, this says it all.
“They are also much more scared and confused and overwhelmed by all this than they let on. Men coming to the Red Pill – Beta or Alpha – need to get this. We’ve been bamboozled about the male place on the food chain.”
It’s amazing what you can get accomplished (and get away with lol) when you realize that 99% of the people you come in contact with everyday are desperate for validation…including most women.
One of the best re-frames I have ever taught myself is, “I wonder if I will like this person?”
“I should have chasing and pumping as many younger gals as I could game. But oh no, the way to be I though was to be ‘above all that’ and find someone who would ‘mutually honor what’s on the inside’ as Rollo so well put it.” Same here. I’m sure I could of been successful with women as a teen and young man, but I chose to reject that way of life. I was raised in a very religious household. Pre-marital sex was bad. You will burn in hell for that. Not only will God not approve, but neither will… Read more »
Rollo, to your point about naturals benefitting from Game. I find that my natural game is more effective when I don’t try to be alpha. My frame uses lots of push with very little pull and it’s more effective than trying to do witty wordplay. Strong subvocals, get the woman to talk about herself, then instigate for some isolation (go for a walk, go to my truck, etc.). That works just fine.
@asdgamer, not to go all Zen on you, but men need to let themselves be Alpha, not try to be Alpha.
There is no try. Trying leads to “tryhard”.
There is training, besides being and realization of one’s masculinity. I could use training in being more playful just because I’d like to get in that mode on occasion. When I’m around fun people, I tend to be more playful. It would be nice to be able to generate that on my own.
One thing that still thwarts ideological feminism today is that its perceived goal states contradict human beings’ natural states. This contradiction gets narratively blamed on men not wanting to cooperate with feminism, but even the most ardent feminist is still guilty of her own biology and arousal triggers contradicting herself.
Biology trumps conviction.
@caveclown “I wonder if I will like this person?” Behavior “So….men are bad, you must respect women, never chase a woman, always ask permission, take your time, go slow, make sure she is comfortable.” Oh that sounds like a dinner conversation. “So alpha = child molester that only wants sex. And sex is BAD. lol In all honesty, I was actually pretty alpha in personality. But, it got emotionally beat out of me. It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.” Me to I’ve had my alpha appear in the most desperate attempts at me… Read more »
rugby11ljh – “…rock stars giving up an the FI and just losing the battle of fighting it but pushing it back none the less…”
Alpha is a mindset…
scribblerg ~ very much enjoying your writing. Your life patterns, experiences actions, reactions, timeline and all seem very similar to my own. With a few minor detail changes you are writing my biography even to the point of currently being demotivated for anything other than basic survival… it’s uncanny how closely your experiences match my own… Born in ’62 and am 53 now, came of age in the 70’s… same same “we were taught that it was on the inside that counts. This was laid on top of a traditional male ideal that included heavy doses of chivalry, romance/courtly love… Read more »
…aaaand in case you thought the Free Love mindset had died out by the 80’s…
Now my internet smells like patchouli.
” . . .men need to let themselves be Alpha, not try to be Alpha.”
The arrow releases itself and finds the target.
And I have just been targeted and blocked by RoK. Hi ho.
@Highwasp “I’m literally parasitizing the parasite like a true Activist. By removing the ‘burden to perform’ from my life, I have inadvertently become an activist.]” Me to that’s a good thing to change now and think about. @Rollo “Many couples start by looking for a single, bisexual woman, a quest known as “hunting the unicorn.” That happens here in DC a lot. @kfg “And I have just been targeted and blocked by RoK. Hi ho.” Makes me think of @Badpainter working man something for nothing https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaDrnxp3L0 It all comes off as a threat which gets most people banned. Well at… Read more »
@kfg, I see Forney is dutifully carrying Roosh’s retromasculinity water to the MGTOWs today.
Funny how comfortable they are in using the same dismissives that the Jezzies have always used against their own.
I expect similar hit pieces are warming up for MRAs and TRP in the next week. Roosh has to plow the fields before his first world tour appearance this weekend.
At least the comments are encouraging. The Manosphere is smarter than Roosh probably expected. They know he and RoK have officially jumped the shark.
“”It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.”
Me to I’ve had my alpha appear in the most desperate attempts at me not taking my own life and moving me in the right direction. Away from home…
Alpha has dreams of burning down home.”
No offense friend, I don’t know what flavor of english you speak, but I speak american…could you translate? I have no idea what this means lol
@Caveclown “It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.” Me to I’ve had my alpha appear in the most desperate attempts at me not taking my own life and moving me in the right direction. Away from home… Alpha has dreams of burning down home.” Say what? Went home to see my dad got angry because he expected something special. I was dreaming of burning down my house with no one it it and rebuilding a new one that could hold better dreams. The Alpha I have repressed for all the wrong reasons is in… Read more »
Rollo, reading the diatribes against MGTOW’s from Forney, Roosh, etc. is giving me flashbacks. Am I reading “retromasculine” men, or am I reading late 90’s early 00’s rainbow-haired feminists? There’s almost no difference.
Anyone can see it, too, it’s all there, and it’s all right out of the Feminist Shaming Language template. “Basement dwelling, porn addicted, can’t get laid”, yatta, yatta, yatta.
What next, Forney and Roosh teaming up to suddenly discover that lifting is good for T? Anything for a buck, I guess.
The Manosphere is smarter than Roosh probably expected.
People have been telling me for a while how intelligent Roosh is, but frankly I’ve never been able to see any evidence. He seems to be slightly above average and that’s it, in my opinion.
Anyone else see the irony in Roosh’s posts about women not bringing value to a man’s life in contrast to Matt’s article?
What’s funny is I suffered through Obsidian’s youtube sermon about how “bruthahs need to come together” after Roosh went retro-masc cult leader and made me sound like I had the problem.
Obs if you’re reading me, it aint me bruthah.
“Funny how comfortable they are in using the same dismissives that the Jezzies have always used against their own.” It would seem the purge is on, the Cone of Echo has been lowered and it has truly become Jezebel for Boys. “At least the comments are encouraging.” When Roosh first floated the Neomasculinity trial balloon at RoK the response wasn’t really very different from what it received at TRP. I figured he’d take the hint, fall back for while, and let the idea fade while he looked for another avenue of approach, but he went with double down instead. “Roosh… Read more »
@kfg “It will be interesting to see any video of him that comes out, speaking before a live audience. If he can’t pull some charisma out of somewhere, it’s going to be a problem for him as the prospective leader of a movement.” http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MnIJxcqSKgY Online personality a don’t stand against a human conception of how you feel and what you do. Roissy put out a good post today on online dating and lack of actual human communication. Peer to peer Rapport and engaging in human dialogue it also goes back to rejection which I am still dealing with in social… Read more »
Well I just posted about the military and desire not being faked in the 60s and I got bounced.
What I said about the military: it makes you grow up fast.
And what I also said was that outlaw MC gangs were early fans of the Grateful Dead.
June 22nd, 2015 at 9:14 am
Old martial arts/Zen saying. “The miracle is not that I got knocked down. The miracle is that I got up. Again.”
@ walawala “Game is really about finding that inner confidence to achieve what you want.” RP nugget of gold right there. Occasionally I go back and read Rollo’s archives going back to 2011 and there you are – learning, and putting it out there. Your Game focus is top-shelf, and now it would seem the plates you are spinning are also top-shelf. Bravo. I’m working on getting to that level of inner Game to spin younger hotter plates. I just can’t seem to crack through the hb6-7 glass ceiling. I “believe” I can spin hb6-7’s, but I’m still yet to… Read more »
Women’s attitude and the FI –> “I AM the prize.”
And that leads to men supplicating… Weakness.
Man’s attitude —> “I AM the prize.”
All is right in the world.
Was just discussing that with the LTR. And she started in with “equalism.” I said, “That doesn’t give you tingles.” She, “You are right.” Me, “Wouldn’t you prefer tingles?” Her, “Yes.”
The shit testing NEVER ends. But I shit test her back. “I went through women looking for one who wanted me no matter what.” Her, “That’s me.”
June 22nd, 2015 at 2:21 pm
Well. If you want to get off yer dead arse and do something I have need of a guy who is deep into securities.
You can contact me through here:
And that is the project I need to raise money for.
June 22nd, 2015 at 2:34 pm
My preference was Sandalwood.
June 22nd, 2015 at 3:22 pm
Lesbians can work out nicely. If they at least like the guy and have a mutual interest. I met a lesbian girl once who was as deep into Aleister Crowley as I was….. Well we used to get naked together. Along with her bi GF. Good times.
Rollo and Gentlemen, Here is a question that I would like your perspective on. Rollo has written about how men are the true romantics who love idealistically. However, women love opportunistically – they love a man for what he can do for them. If they love that way, would they also not expect to receive love that way? Would they not instinctively feel the need to be of maximum use in order to be loved? Dare I say perform? I wonder if they really feel this to be true, and we see such push back to “be loved just the… Read more »
Got banned from RoK three maybe four years ago. I was on point but also mentioned cannabis. That was it.
I had a rotation going on. Now it is just TRM.
8 in the Gate
June 22nd, 2015 at 8:15 pm
It all depends on who is the prize.
@8 at the gate Both nothing is unique i find that it depends. Nothing about is unique when I get feedback here. Women can cope like men and men can cope like women depending on where your coming from. Women who enjoy movies will blue pill the shit out of it. If they want to creat an idealized Disney like fairy tale they will. But when you see them in the real world they resent you or at least me for not “wanted” to perfom. That was my biggest mistake growing up. Refusing to have to ask for emotional validation… Read more »
@M. Simon – Well said, brother. I also want to say publicly here that I appreciated your offer to mentor me a while back, it was not a trivial thing to offer. I reflexively could not make myself go through with it as what’s really so is that I’m a grown man who has lived well and know damn well how to do so.I don’t need to learn anything, I need to actualize what I’ve learned and exert some discipline and form new, constructive habits again. This is a journey I must take alone, I have to face down my… Read more »
Should anyone care I have added a comment to the previous thread:
June 22nd, 2015 at 8:54 pm
It took me 3 years of incredible discipline to give up my anger (a childhood artifact having nothing to do with Blue Pill). The first 6 months was the hardest. Even so there were breaks from time to time. You just repair the damage and reestablish the discipline.
Now a days the anger is on a switch. It is a tool, not my master.
Good to see your’e still out there Softek!
Had me worried man.
@8 in the Gate M Simon points out how much the frame matters. If you’re the prize, she falls into your (fundamentally idealistic) frame. Idealism can set the frame if you want it. If she is the ‘prize,’ then her opportunism sets the frame and the relationship is in rocky waters the instant she perceives (rightly or wrongly) that she has better options. As a default though, when not in a relationship, it seems women use idealistic rationalizations as a socially acceptable front for their opportunism – and believe men are doing the same. So they are surprised and dismayed… Read more »
Lol. I’ve said it before, to women there are three genders.
Glad you still in the sky!!!
“Who better to manage stasis than some one with an interest in preventing change?”
That’s a serious root in my trauma that still hurts to bring up because how fundamentally Bluepill it is.
Confidence at this point in my life is knowin that and moving on.
It’s still hard to admit to myself how wrong I am about the way the world actually works.
Regarding the Atlantic article,
I would love if Rollo or you men help me understand the psychological reasons why a man is okay (or aroused) when he wants another guy to fuck his wife.
And the same for a woman who gets turned on by wanting her husband to fuck another woman.
Is it the humiliation?
Is it masochistic?
Go to past thread.
@Mr T “help me understand the psychological reasons why a man is okay (or aroused) when he wants another guy to fuck his wife. And the same for a woman who gets turned on by wanting her husband to fuck another woman. Is it the humiliation? Is it masochistic?” For me growing up with both parents have external sex outside of marriage I never developed what. A heathy relationship looks like. If you where to look at what Robert glover talks about in No more Mr nice guy he goes over a list of things are beta and based off… Read more »
rugby11ljh June 22nd, 2015 at 11:14 pm Don’t take it so personally. I was a Communist in my youth. It all seemed so idealistic. It seemed like it could work. And then came the mass murders. Again. ========= @ Mr. T Why would a Beta want some one else in his GF? Well maybe she “makes it up to him” after. Other wise he isn’t getting ANY. Maybe he has oneitis and will do anything for her. ========= BTW I get you have fallen for that stuff because you are mining the SJWs. Big hint. They don’t care about your… Read more »
Okay, what about the woman who wants to see her guy fucking another woman
@M Simon Not a cumminsist had a good friend my Age escape the wall in Germany and got hunted by dogs through a mine field. He swam to a boat and became a stowaway. Came to Miami built one of the largest bakery’s and than moved and sold it. @Mr T “Okay, what about the woman who wants to see her guy fucking another woman” I’ve meet them and it happens more often than not and usually only disclosed in certain circles. All women have XX in their chromosomes so their all lips. From top to bottom seening a man… Read more »
Regarding my question.
No adolescents answers.
@ Forge the Sky Thanks, I appreciate it. Little aside here: The magic question is “How do you know?” -Problem -Interrupt with “How do you know (e.g. that you have this problem)?” -Layers to the problem start to be revealed -Address layers one by one Example: -Suicidal -How do you know you’re suicidal? -I can’t have a life I want to live. -How do you know you can’t have a life you want to live? -I fuck up everything. I’m a fuck up -How do you know you’re a fuck up? -Here’s where the ‘proof’ starts coming in, i.e., memories… Read more »
June 22nd, 2015 at 11:54 pm
“When I see you with her it makes me so hot for you.” – The ultimate dread game. Happened to me a little tonight. Girl was giving me some extra friendly hugs.
Me. “Did it make you jealous?”
Me. “Did it make you hot for me?
LTR. “Oh. Yeah.”
@Mr T Not directed at me, but um. What do you mean by an ‘adolescent answer?’ Why is psychology better than such an answer? Seems like a strange metric. I prefer ‘true’ answers myself, whether they be in limerick or peer-reviewed abstract form. Would an adolescent answer be me telling you the hottest sex I had was when my GF thought I was fucking another girl (even when I wasn’t)? Cause that’s true. This is also true. Heterosexual men and women are both very sexually drawn to opposite-gendered persons who demonstrate high mate value. Due to innate differences in drives… Read more »
@Rugby It’s interesting how porn seems to draw a clear expression of pathology from people – even those who are seemingly mentally well. Those who don’t feel worthy or able of giving women a good fuck imagine another man doing it, hence cuckold porn. Those who feel so weak they can’t imagine having sexual power over a grown women pursue pedophilia/cartoon porn. I never had crazy fetishes or anything, but when I was younger I thought I was really attracted to tomboys/boyish girls. Then I tried to fuck one of them and it was a total turnoff. For both of… Read more »
@Forge the sky “Those who don’t feel worthy or able of giving women a good fuck imagine another man doing it, hence cuckold porn.” http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8ymTS17pLc It’s more than that to me it’s the deep fear of development. Man I am 27 and I am so far away from where I can be. Fabian and the FI make use of easy cheap gimmicks with “Free” stuff http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VCQCsWOivGo While personal choice and accountability help put you more in the drivers seat. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vkJwFRAwDNE One last one Mirror neurons and game as an adult male. Coping with positive social skills and not negative maladaptive… Read more »
June 23rd, 2015 at 12:18 am
Addiction as an imprinted belief system. Very good. Here is how I put it:
People in chronic pain chronically take pain relievers. PTSD mostly.
“The arousing ‘macho’ men, the Alphas of the era, would systematically become the most ridiculed parodies and caricatures of masculinity as women came into a better understanding of the power they were only beginning to realize and the Beta men took their perceived revenge.” I’ve got to admit that is a very astute observation of the AFBBs Sandbergian sexual strategy playing out generationally. Looking back to the 80s and 90s there certainly was a glut of family themed TV programming. What makes it even more interesting is that a lot of the shows involved divorcees and mixed families. I guess… Read more »
June 23rd, 2015 at 12:18 am
FWIW and assuming you live where you can take advantage – cannabis use is associated with lower suicide rates.
It’s interesting how porn seems to draw a clear expression of pathology from people – even those who are seemingly mentally well. Those who don’t feel worthy or able of giving women a good fuck imagine another man doing it, hence cuckold porn. I have stumbled into that on occasion. There once was a series on that. I watched a couple of them before I just couldn’t stand it anymore. “Amateur” guys would bring their GF and watch a pro roger her. All the while the BF is cringing and she is raving about how good the pro is. So… Read more »
M Simon ,
Why is it You are too covert with women ?
June 23rd, 2015 at 8:23 am
You are going to have to explain what you mean before I can answer.
The women I dated would freak out at me when I looked at other women.
A woman who is with an alpha would fight other women to keep him for herself, a woman who doesn’t fight to keep her man for herself is a woman who is with a beta.
when you value something, you want to keep it for yourself.
Mr T June 23rd, 2015 at 8:46 am Ah. So you are ignorant of dread game. Pity. And she has been watching other women come on to me spontaneously for 40 years. She likes it. It validates her choice. We went into an eatery once to pick up some food. Some gay girl came on to me so intense it made her stagger. And her partner was daggers. Funny. The LTR was amused. And she does fight to keep me – by perfecting her surrender. All she can do is want me more than any other woman can. And she… Read more »
You are ignorant of covert and overt,pity.
LOL. The guy in that cartoon posted by Roger D has the Nazi Eagle tattooed on his biceps.
Back when the Spearhead was still online, one of the older commenters made an interesting observation about the Free Love era. The male leader figures of the hippie movement, especially commune leaders, normally had soft harems, and hippie chicks normally wanted to join. When their boyfriends objected, the women started complaining of “male possessiveness” and joined the harems anyway. Even back then it should have been obvious to anyone with functioning eyes is that the doctrine of free love is simply female hypergamy unleashed.
Two questions. Apropos Artificial Birth Control: when did Condoms become available? I ask because I have had more than one promiscuous girlfriend refusing to go on the pill (which would have seemed sensible) but insisting on Condoms. If the answer is way pre-60s then would our conception of sexual purity for the unmarried pre-1960 be somewhat mistaken. Again, does anyone have a clue as to how prevalent ‘back-street’ abortion was pre-1970. It clearly existed (see Frederick Raphael’s Oscar-winning Darling from 1965). It was frowned on as unsafe but that just strikes me as turf-war rhetoric from the medical profession hoping… Read more »
@Opus, latex condoms have been available since at least the 1940’s (American soldiers in WWII called them ‘Jiffys’).
See my quote about illegitimate births and abortion during the WWII era from the first post.
Anyone else see the irony in Roosh’s posts about women not bringing value to a man’s life in contrast to Matt’s article? I’m pretty sure they see no irony whatsoever. Their view is that, all in all, the game offers diminishing returns for men, but real men are still supposed to play it. In other words, yes, women are becoming fatter and more irritating everywhere, feminism is spreading around the globe, the global economy will continue to stagnate etc., but none of that is an excuse to opt out. Because you owe it to yourself as a man to march… Read more »
@hollen, that’s an interesting take when you think about it. Really, what’s Roosh been doing for the past decade if not going his own way? He decided that a Blue Pill life of domestic indenturement with a wife and a day job wasn’t for him so he went his own way by learning Game, moving to various countries where his Game was most efficient with the variety of women he wanted to bang. I think the mistake is to think of MGTOWs as all being cut from the same Isolationist cloth and retreating into a life of Basement Dwelling Virgins®.… Read more »
Mr T June 23rd, 2015 at 9:11 am How exactly do I hide that women come on to me (not frequently – I’m no rock star – a few times a year) in public? How do I hide that they get “stupid attracted” in my presence? A few years back at an art show an early 20 something (still in or just out of college) was making passes. Eventually (after a couple of days) her friends had a word with her. I was 67 or 68 at the time. The LTR was watching all this. She was amused. I asked… Read more »
Rollo Tomassi June 23rd, 2015 at 12:37 pm Basement Dwelling Virgins® – BDV – I like it. It kinda opposes DHV. The sad thing is that most of them have NO drive. None. And a man without drive gets no respect. Not only that. They are not saving for their old age. What will happen when they are unaffordable? They are not thinking that far ahead. I wouldn’t be surprised if “let them die” was in our future. It will be an ugly time. Unless we can figure out how to keep them alive and moderately well on the cheap.… Read more »
@Simon, I think that’s the philosophical issue though, can a guy be MGTOW and be motivated and driven towards his own interests?
I’m not sure it’s fair to characterizer MGTOW men as being uniquely ‘unmotivated’. I know that’s the straw man Forney would like to paint them as, but from a MGTOW principle, isn’t going your own way part of the mentality of being prepared to walk on a woman? What about rejecting the Blue Pill paradigm and recreating yourself in a Red Pill paradigm?
” What about rejecting the Blue Pill paradigm and recreating yourself in a Red Pill paradigm?” In a red pill paradigm the very concept of ambition changes. From a blue pill model of ambition some very ambitious men indeed can appear to be without it, but Burt Munro was anything but unambitious. Nobody races motorcycles, base jumps or sails solo around the world without ambition. None of them are shirking danger (or play) while doing so. In fact, one of the reasons they may appear not to save for the future is because they expect the future to kill them… Read more »
@Forge the Sky “Those who feel so weak they can’t imagine having sexual power over a grown women pursue pedophilia/cartoon porn.” Please don’t equate an art form with child abuse. Cartoon erotica existed since the beginning of animation, many normal manly men fapped to Betty Boop and Red Hot Riding Hood, but American censorship killed it that time. If it didn’t, cartoon porn would be as native to America as to Japan, and no one would think it’s for weirdos. People are freaked out by what they aren’t used to. And most female characters on porn art sites like Rule34… Read more »
What is MGTOW anyway? Forney goes to a rather marginal, defunct blog which hasn’t been updated in years and was written by someone who has pretty much passed into oblivion, chooses a post from 2001 which hasn’t even been commented on, links to it, and declares it to be the proper definition of MGTOW everyone should abide by. Am I really supposed to take that seriously? The simple fact is that nobody controls the definition. There was no Congress of the All-Union Men’s Party for GTOW which elected a Political Committee, which then passed a resolution on a proper definition.… Read more »
” . . . many normal manly men fapped to Betty Boop and Red Hot Riding Hood, but American censorship killed it that time. ”
The FI at work. It goes hand in hand with the raising of the age of consent, to put the most desirable women beyond the legal reach of men.
Note that paedophilia is in the process of being redefined as any age difference some woman doesn’t approve of and never mind the fact that this naturally and inevitably brands strong, independent career women as having no more brains or agency than a prepubescent child.
“The majority of saving in a blue pill paradigm isn’t done for your own maintenance, it is done for the maintenance of others.”
Yes and that is why I think altrisum is very more Bluepill than Redpill
Most people who use nature as a connection to the most profound Redpill truths are willingly open to death. It’s a process that only reenforces the importance of self care and self exploration.
I think the “Let Them Die” “solution” to “too many betas/average men” would have taken place 10,000 years ago if it was an easy, obvious answer. I also think it plays into FI/feminine frame too much. Human society is full of countervailing tensions. One force may be in ascendancy or decline at a particular time, but there is always a correction. As a species we are likely more robust because of this. Right now, a number of political forces are pushing us towards one-world natural state. One-world natural state is sub-optimal when contrasted with corrections that men can make. Christianity,… Read more »
Really, what’s Roosh been doing for the past decade if not going his own way?
Not really. He apparently believes it’s a way that is the one proper way. The people he’s complaining about are mostly the West’s equivalent of Japanese herbivores.
Rollo Tomassi June 23rd, 2015 at 1:21 pm Well I’m an engineer. I take on responsibility. It is my nature. So am I Blue Pill for starting a family? Even if I have lived Red Pill? Well it depends. Am I “acting” Blue Pill because that is all I know? Well that is one thing. Am I acting Blue Pill because that is what circumstances dictate? That is another. Is it Blue Pill to pull the ripcord at 500ft? Is it Red Pill to crash into the ground? What do the circumstances dictate? Is it Blue Pill to follow the… Read more »
“Novaseeker put forth that the average, beta man cannot succeed without societal support or subsidy.”
“Whoever does the mating dance the best.” Awareness
“Blue Pill uninformed by Red Pill. And Red Pill disdaining family behavior. It will not end well.”
One thing is learned is that being a child in a blue pill state is far worse than a red pill state because your mindset itself defeating.
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:48 pm
And the rest. I’m going to have to read and think about it. I have some things to do. I’ll be back later. Glad to have been able to open some lines of thought.
It is quite enjoyable to be able to hang with you all.
I am not MGTOW, though some years ago I could have played one on TV. In my lone-wolf youth, no one cared what I did, but instead of it getting me down I learned to like that. Gave me a lot of freedom. And resistant to howls from anyone how it is my duty to “save society” by obeying them, because reasons. To my mind, man-up people like Forney are no different than the man-up-and-do-what-FI-says preacher class Dalrock calls out constantly. I always bristle when I hear “society needs you.” It didn’t need me then, it doesn’t need shit now.… Read more »
@ Rollo Another fantastic and elucidating article! A perfect illustration as to no matter what the social mores are or the lack thereof female hypergamy is a factor that any willing player should be aware of. You truly are a light amongst the darkness. @Sribblerg “The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that a big part of the what’s pissing off men is that the Beta strategy is less effective than ever.” Aint’ that the truth brother! I did okay with women in the mid to late 80’s and early 90’s. Young professional, partied with… Read more »
Blue Pill uninformed by Red Pill. And Red Pill disdaining family behavior.
Red Pill doesn’t disdain family behavior. Mainstream society does.
Hoellenhund: While projecting a facade of demanding it. There must be grist for the mill if it is to keep grinding.
Eh, whatev dude. I’m not gonna denigrate anything just cause it’s a drawing. It obviously runs a wide diversity. But I think it can serve as a buffer in certain cases. That’s the association I was drawing between cartoon porn and pedophilia (which I think can also be a buffer), not saying all drawn porn is pedo or anything.
A man’s understanding that nothing is free, and that includes his participation.
The lifestyle resulting from a very clear ability to distinguish between one’s wants and needs, and the wants and need of others.
The understanding that the wants and needs of either one individual or society do not constitute an uncompensated obligation of any kind on the part of anyone else.
Hollenhund, KFG “Red Pill doesn’t disdain family behavior. Mainstream society does.” “Hoellenhund: While projecting a facade of demanding it. There must be grist for the mill if it is to keep grinding.” Occasional exceptions aside, the family is functionally dead in the modern west. Family takes at least some devotion to a collectivist mindset – an ‘us’ whose interests are greater than the ‘I.’ Family now is usually a way for an individual to leverage an old institution, and certain biological realities, for their own emotional or practical gain, or for status. Any truly collectivist virtue is abominated. If in… Read more »
Alan Watts on MGTOW:
@hoellenhund2 “Red Pill doesn’t disdain family behavior. Mainstream society does.” Yeah that’s the part I never have sink in. @Badpainter “The understanding that the wants and needs of either one individual or society do not constitute an uncompensated obligation of any kind on the part of anyone else.” I am going to think about this carefully on my way to practice. @Forge the sky “Any truly collectivist virtue is abominated. If in any book or movie a person is told they must do something inconvenient to their interests ‘for the sake of the family,’ you can be certain the story… Read more »
While projecting a facade of demanding it. There must be grist for the mill if it is to keep grinding.
On one hand, fathers are declared to be completely optional – their status and role is completely dependent on the mother’s whim. On the other hand, they are thrown a bone by occiasionally getting declared to have an important role in family life. It’s pretty much an inside joke by mainstream society.
Opus:- The magic words post-war would be uttered sotto-voce by one’s barber at the conclusion of the business of blades. “Something for the week-end, sir?”. My sources (oral history lol) tell me that it was a wartime thing that stayed in vogue until Boot’s started flogging the LRC’s balloons again en-masse in the ’60s, thus nobbling the barbers’ under-the-counter (but not particularly discouraged) trade, and vending machines appeared in pub toilets. Boot’s had yielded to pressure from all sorts of moralising wowsers and stopped selling in the ’20s (after a previous wartime exigency forced the saner Authorities to exhort the… Read more »
I can see the POV of both Roosh’s ‘Women have reduced themselves to sexual commodities’ and Matt Forney’s ‘Why MGTOW, is no way for MTG’. @ Rollo / Hoellenhund2 / kfg – from the original MGTOW manifesto…(last paragraph) “You will basically be alone doing this. There is no organization supporting you. You just go your own way and do what you believe is right. You are never obligated beyond your own conscience. True masculinity is also about accepting the rights of other men and not letting them down for any short term personal benefits. The men’s movement does actually cover… Read more »
While I disagree with the Isolationist aspect of MGTOW, and I think the idea that they can in some way leave the Game is in error, I do understand the desire for those aspects. Marriage sells, but who’s buying? Dr. Helen and Dalrock have illustrated the stats on declining marriage rates for years – hell, even Milo Y had a two part article on Brietbart about the “sexodus” – so in those terms there’s already a passive move towards MGTOW rather than an overt marriage strike. So now Roosh wants his unicorn and the MGTOW, TRP, MRM, PUA, are all… Read more »
stuttie, nobody gives a damn about that manifesto. It’s a post from 2001, with an empty comment thread, on a marginal blog that has been dormant for years. The MGTOW
The MGTOW acronym has apparently taken on a life of its own, and nothing can be done about it. Why do people see that as problematic? Are they that invested in their own narrative about masculinity?
“On the other hand, they are thrown a bone by occiasionally getting declared to have an important role in family life. It’s pretty much an inside joke by mainstream society.”
Not to me. To me that’s the part where I walk away from society.
“I think the Basement Dwelling Virgins® may have embraced MGTOW and ultimately clouded the original manifesto’s message. ” Barbarossa, who is anything but a basement dwelling virgin, but is a rather young man, crafted a new MGTOW, which overtly rejects the manifesto as anything but historic. Me, I come from the other side, going my own way long before the manifesto was written and thus tend to think of it as rather new fangled. I cut what some might consider a rather fine distinction; I do not identify as MGTOW, but I am MGHOW. The former is plural, the latter… Read more »
Forge the Sky June 23rd, 2015 at 5:03 pm The Soviet Union already did the experiment. For a while they killed off the family. It did not turn out well. They ended the experiment. You can’t beat biology. RP itself is proof of that. There is a famous equation in sociology. It shows that the degree of altruism expressed is proportional to the degree of genetic relatedness. What else do we know? Tribes with populations above about 150 fission. Tribal economy fails beyond that level of population. We see something similar with socialism. It seems to work better when a… Read more »
“It’s a post from 2001, with an empty comment thread, on a marginal blog that has been dormant for years.”
The early years of MGTOW are characterized by its spaces and records being continuously under attack and its records destroyed.
What you are looking at is the equivalent of a world in the which the US constitution is on display, but the Federalist Papers only exist as mimeographed samizdat.