Adaptations – Part II

Studio 54

When I first published the comparative SMV graph a few years ago one of the first criticisms was that the age comparisons between men and women seemed too concrete and too specific to contemporary times. I tried to make concessions for this then, but when I was writing that post it was at first meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. Still, I try to write with the presupposition that critics will take things either too literally or too figuratively. I knew that the literati then and now would think, “…well, yes it’s a good outline, but you’re looking at the SMV from the perspective of 2012 and society was much different 50, 70, 100, 2,000 years ago so this graph is flawed…”

My SMV graph was never meant to be some canonical tablet handed to me from the almighty. I thought of it then, and still think of it now, as a very good workable outline for how men and women’s comparative SMV relates to the other. This has been borne out in many other statistics from individual studies sent to me by readers or just my coming across them since I created that graph.

That said, and in relation to where I’m going with this Adaptations series, those critics aren’t wrong to suggest that this outline would be subject to the social environments and simple physical realities of earlier times, and likely some times yet to come.

Take what I’m about to delve into here with a bit of salt; I’m not a historian. One of my favorite figures from the civil war ear was Colonel Robert Gould Shaw. If you’ve seen the movie Glory you know who I’m referencing here. This young man was 23 when he enlisted and 25 when he was promoted to Major and then Colonel. In that time Shaw saw some pretty grisly shit, including the battle of Antietam.

I’d seen the movie when it first came out in 1989, but after watching it again for a class assignment I had a new appreciation for the real man who was Robert Shaw. I saw the film using what was just becoming my Red Pill lens. It struck me that the realities of that era forced men to become Men much sooner than men do today. The realities of our times give us a leisure the men of Shaw’s age simple couldn’t imagine. The realities of that time necessitated a quick maturation to bear the burden of heavy responsibilities. Those burdens were much more imperative then, but a 23 year old is still a 23 year old.

I thought about how I’d spent my own years between the ages of 23-25 when I was at the peak of my semi-rock star tail chasing in the late 80’s Hollywood scene. I began to really think about the differences in the social and physical environments of the 1860s and the 1980s-90s. I’ve always joked that men don’t become Men until they’re 30. Even on the SMV graph the point at which I attribute men’s real ascendency to their peak SMV at around age 30, but this wasn’t always the case in the past.

Men (comparatively) live longer lives as a result of health and medical advances, but (at least in westernizing culture) it takes much more time and personal investment, as well as acculturation for men to realize their personal potential. Men’s burden of performance wasn’t much different in prior eras, but the timeframe necessary to reach a man’s peak potential was much more accelerated.

So to address the concerns of the temporal critics of the SMV graph, yes, this graph might look a bit different to the men and women of the 19th century. Considering lifespans of the era and the social conditions then, the ages during which a woman would reach her own peak might be around 17, and a man’s may be 25, however the same curves of the bell wouldn’t change drastically. Men adapted to the conditions their environment dictated to them then in much the same way they did before and after the sexual revolution. And this adaptation came as the result of what was expected of them as their burden of performance, as well as what their social leisures would permit them.

Love American Style

Into the 70’s the new social contract of the Free Love generation began to take a new shape. Bear in mind that this new equalitarian contract was based on the hopeful presumption that both sexes would mutually honor the “what’s on the inside is what counts” normalization of attraction. Under this contract women’s Hypergamous natures could flourish, while men’s unlimited access sexual strategy could ostensibly be realized.

Of course these lofty, higher-consciousness, presumptions  were meant to supersede human nature and an evolved sexual arousal function based on human biology. One thing that still thwarts ideological feminism today is that its perceived goal states contradict human beings’ natural states. This contradiction gets narratively blamed on men not wanting to cooperate with feminism, but even the most ardent feminist is still guilty of her own biology and arousal triggers contradicting herself.

Biology trumps conviction. People get fidgety when I apply this in a religious context, but it’s equally applicable to feminism and really any ideology that under-appreciates human nature and the realities of its conditions.

As the new sexual landscape began to solidify, men began to adapt their own sexual strategies to the conditions of this fast and loose environment. Just prior to the Disco Generation hardcore pornography began its path to the ubiquitous porn we know today. The sexual restraint necessitated by the realities of prior generations loosened in light of widespread hormonal birth control and safe(er) legal abortion.

While Hypergamy was effectively unleashed, the women of this era hadn’t fully grasped the scope of it being so or what it would become. Acceptable premarital sex, abortion and unilaterally feminine controlled birth control meant that women had an unprecedented degree of control over their Hypergamous decision making. I doubt many women of the time understood this, but the only real control men had (and still have now) over women’s breeding and birthing outcomes was now grounded in the psychological (Game) or the physical (arousal). Provisioning was still a consideration for women, but the division between short-term and long-term pairing became more stark.

As I mentioned here in the beginning, a slowing of the maturation process was the inevitable result of women’s freedom of Hypergamous choice. Short-term Alpha Fucks no longer posed the same societal and personal risks of a pre-birth control generation, thus long-term pairing choices (Beta bucks) began to be delayed. The ideological cover story was one of women expecting men to “love their insides” despite their age, psychological baggage or physical condition.

Women’s preoccupation with The Wall was ostensibly mitigated by the Free Love social contract that men would honor their end of the higher-consciousness equalitarian dream of a mutually agreed attraction based on intrinsic qualities. The biological realities for both sexes was much different.

Women trusted they could be sexually ‘free’ without social stigmatization, but the reality was that the long-term needs of Hypergamy could be postponed in what would eventually become a Sandbergian sexual strategy. The more Alpha men of the time – ones in touch with the visceral nature of women and themselves – understood the incredibly boon this represented to them.

It’s important to bear in mind that Hypergamy was not the openly embraced dynamic it’s come into today. Thus, the unspoken, secretive nature of Hypergamy was something a man who ‘just got it’ instinctively understood and women were aroused by it.

Machismo

During the 70s ‘Macho’ men began to adapt to a new paradigm. They adapted to the reality that women were conflicted by the Free Love paradigm. These men embraced both the sexual openness expected of women, but they also understood that in spite of the social contract of love being based on intrinsic qualities, women still wanted to fuck (with abandon) the men with extrinsic arousal triggering qualities. The physical began to take priority above the emotional pretentiousness.

The macho quality could take different forms. Whether is was the good ole boy of the south or the Tony Manero at Studio 54, understanding the mindset is what’s important here.

Macho men in the discos and key parties of the 70s figured out they could ‘Game’ the old paradigm of non-exclusivity paired with birth control by re-embracing (with disco era gusto) a masculinity that had been abandoned just a decade earlier. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality was for men who overtly challenged the Free Love preconditions. They enjoyed the rewards of its expectations of women while rebounding off the self-expectations of the Beta men who were still cooperating with the Free Love social contract.

This era is an interesting parallel to our own. I think much of the Red Pill resentment coming from men still plugged into a Blue Pill mindset is rooted in a similar perception that they’re playing by an acceptable set of rules that “men with Game” are exploiting for their own selfish ends. What they don’t realize is that their Blue Pill interpretations are a designed part of a social paradigm that supports feminine primacy. Game works because, like the macho men of the 70s, it’s primarily based on women’s inborn psychology and the visceral realities of women’s biological impulses.

Beta men in the 70s still believed that the Free Love mindset was equally and mutually beneficial for both sexes since it was supposedly based on a freedom from performance for themselves while freeing women from sexual repression and (covertly) from the reality of the Wall. In reality the Free Love paradigm put men at a disadvantage by giving women almost total control of Hypergamy and the time in which to realize short term mating and long term provisioning.

So these men’s resentment of the Alphas of the era is understandable when you consider that their visceral attractiveness was observably and behaviorally arousing to women who were supposed to idealistically love them for who they were not what they were. These men represented a return to that burden of performance they’d hoped to avoid in the Free Love contract.

These Alpha men understood women’s base impulses then, and that understanding became an integral part of their “just getting it” attraction. However, as we’ll see in the next part of this series, these men would eventually become the butt of their own joke as the Feminine Imperative fluidly transitioned into a new social paradigm of Fem-powerment developing in the 80s and reaching its apex in the 90s.

The arousing ‘macho’ men, the Alphas of the era, would systematically become the most ridiculed parodies and caricatures of masculinity as women came into a better understanding of the power they were only beginning to realize and the Beta men took their perceived revenge. And likewise men adapted to this new paradigm based on the same visceral reality women’s sexuality is fundamentally based on.

282 comments

  1. 4th paragraph, I think you meant to write “era”, not “ear”. Other than that, fascinating article.

  2. Dude, you gotta post part 3! I did not realize you were older and more experienced than I am, I just assumed you were an early thirties guy who learned fast with the aid of the internet era. Now I gotta reread your stuff again….

  3. The US Changed dramatically Jan. 27, 1973

    With the end of the draft you had tons of young men who never ever had exposure to male style military discipline.

    If you want to know why the 80s were different you can look at that. AND Thriller an album done by some guy named Michael.

  4. Dead on about the times may change, but the song (relative SMV peaks) remains the same.

    My biggest mistake as a boy was to develop ‘one-itis’ – twice, once in High School, once in College – with girls from the same year (who were 5 & 11 months older than I). I was aware that I was indirectly competing with older guys who had ‘more to offer’, but I though they would appreciate me as a peer, and that going below my age/class was fishing for a ‘less-developed’ girl.

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

    I should have chasing and pumping as many younger gals as I could game. But oh no, the way to be I though was to be ‘above all that’ and find someone who would ‘mutually honor what’s on the inside’ as Rollo so well put it.

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

    A frivorce from a ugly sow and a couple lost decades later, I finally got it and grew my ass up.

    Great economic success, personal confidence, and some actual game, and when I finally chose to marry again (I had a 5-year wait time rule), I picked a girl, nearly 15 years younger, for whom I was clearly her ‘5 minutes of Alpha’ – the one that would haunt her if I left her. Very low N ( I was #3, very certain of this ), feminine and submissive in many ways, and physically what I wanted.

    No regrets this time. No kids with her (we’re both fixed). Just us.

    And I’ve kept working it at – relationship and marriage game if you will – non stop. It’s work. It usually doesn’t feel like work, but it still is – an extension of the burden of performance if you will. It will never end if I want to keep enjoying what I have. She know it, and is happy with it. The more Alpha I am with her, even when reminding her out of the blue that I could find another woman with ease, and putting her in her place, the more she respects me. Don’t get me wrong, I value her and treat her quite well, but I won’t give up an inch of who I am.

    I have a small but growing pile of books to give my son when he finally is able to leave his mother’s home. The first two are printed copies of The Ration Male – vol 1 & 2. Like any father, I hope he’ll have a better time of it than I did. Knowledge might make the difference.

  5. @Anubis
    That’s great you don’t give an inch away from yourself. Stay strong
    “I should have chasing and pumping as many younger gals as I could game. But oh no, the way to be I though was to be ‘above all that’ and find someone who would ‘mutually honor what’s on the inside’ as Rollo so well put it.”
    You know me as well. I saw many girls in high school get to have fun getting banged by the alpha studs I was destroyed daily for even attemtijg to develope a personal to nail as many girls as possible.
    What I am thankful for is being here and changing that toxic sick mindser that is beta to the core.
    May the force of the red pill be with you forever.

  6. What was the point in time when men had it easiest, so to speak?

    I guess the answer involves an analysis of what men want/wanted. So I wonder, secondly, do men also want a more diverse range of sexual experience than they wanted before?

  7. Do I state the bleeding obvious when I observe that prolonged education can only delay maturation – I mean for men. It is however worth remembering that the Romans (being aware of male impetuosity) delayed full male rights until the age of twenty-eight (twenty-one for females).

    Part III please.

  8. @bnon: The Alpha’s have always had it easiest, but it’s fair to say that pre-modern birth control, women in general had to be more careful because she couldn’t be sure than any f*ck wouldn’t produce a pregnancy.

    When I was a young, clueless, stupid boy of 21, I spent a year with an uncle who was a true Alpha and pus*sy hound. He was 6’3″, 60’s movie/TV star good looks/well endowed, played football in college, ex-air force, and was a commercial airline pilot in the 60s thru 80s, and introduced to chasing tail at 12 by his dad. He stopped count at 300 – his career & looks gave him great status and opportunity, and really getting some new strange was pretty much an addiction for him.

    He tried educate me as to how to get laid, but he didn’t know the underlying reasons about women’s nature, sexual strategy, response, etc, etc and I didn’t gain much (a few lays here and there, but nothing ongoing). He only had his own self-taught experiences to learn from and little teaching. Today we have an unprecedented collective learning and information dissemination going on.

    One thing eye-opening he did teach me by sharing his past, was how much extra-marital activity was going on in the 40s/50s/early 60s. For the right men, the top Alphas, it was a huge amount. Women married much earlier, and once safely in a union, they could pass off any accidental pregnancy as their husbands. From his stories, women who cheated were as a rule extremely careful and concerned about their public status, but able to give today’s sl*ts a run for their money.

    I guess I’m trying to say that it’s the same song, just a different era, and that women adapt to the times just like men do.

    @rugby11ljh: I don’t want come as some stuck-up super red-pill Alpha. Yes, I’ve come a long, long way since my frivorce, but I’ve had my share of doubts, co*k-ups, false starts, etc. along the way, and there is always so much more I could be doing better.

    What did happen that set me on a better path is that I recognized that I had wasted many of the best years of my life in a sorry situation, believing I wasn’t good enough to deserve any better, and in response (and anger I must admit) I’ve poured a ton of ongoing effort to make sure that I make the best of what time I’ve got left.

    When I was separated from my-ex, I discovered Mr. Leykis before he went off the radio – and that stared my eyes opening. From there I threw myself into learning (red pill stuff) from the web, etc. So many many times I wish I could have access to this knowledge as a teen.

    Re: post-divorce and remarrying. I made a couple hard and fast rules to protect myself post-divorce.

    One: No long-term girlfriends until I had bedded at least 10 ladies: to make up for lost youth, and more importantly to have a basis for comparing anyone I would consider getting exclusive with. Was utterly shocked at how easy this was to do in my early 40s compared to 18.

    Two: I would have to be with someone exclusive for 5 whole years before (re-)marriage was an option. This was to protect myself from rebounding into a marriage (badly), like I saw my younger brother do just a couple years prior. Disclosure of this rule to women I was with often caused one of two reactions: Lady would stop seeing me (next!) or she’d be convinced that I didn’t really mean it, and after working her charms on me for a while would relent. I never did and that almost always resulted in the first reaction.

    As for the woman I eventually did marry – she took me at my word about my rules and didn’t push on them. I didn’t date her exclusively for nearly a year after our first encounter. I went slow, made no bones as to why, and she saw that I had options and the will to pursue them. I knew I was the prize. However, I honestly liked her, and what she brought to the table more than the others, and it worked itself out at my pace. 6 years later, I was still enjoying the relationship greatly and wanted/saw it continuing indefinitely, and felt I learned enough about her, and marriage was on the table. So far, no regrets and tons of sparks to this day.

    Not to get too far off track, let me say that I believe what I’ve learned in the manosphere, especially from sites like this one, have given me the tools, provided I use them relentlessly, to manage my marriage and keep it from becoming something I don’t want.

  9. Born in ’62, came of age in the late 70s, amidst this new sexual ethos. I think Rollo is quite right to focus on Beta revenge, and here’s why.

    The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that a big part of the what’s pissing off men is that the Beta strategy is less effective than ever. With women delaying settling down, and some remaining single, or childless or having less children and working in real careers, the entire need for Beta bux decreases and delays.

    You see Blue Pill strategy is a cheat for Beta men. It allows Betas to fuck women who aren’t really attracted to them so much and wouldn’t do so otherwise. What makes such men so angry about open hypergamy is that women make this alpha preference so much more apparent and prevalent, and have lots more time to express it. It’s not only more difficult for Betas to get laid, the entire vibe is an affront and shaming to them. And yes, in my generation we were taught that it was on the inside that counts. This was laid on top of a traditional male ideal that included heavy doses of chivalry, romance/courtly love and vassalization to women. One can say that the Blue Pill went on steroids with the addition of the “free love” ethos. It was the answer for every frustrated Beta who was standing on the sidelines at the disco while the girls grinded on the gorilla with gold chains and Jordache jeans.

    Fyi, didn’t do a lot of disco, but the best night I ever had at a disco was on two hits of blotter acid with a friend, we danced the night way, gaining the attention of most hot girls in the place. We AMOGGED the place jointly, tripping our asses off and laughing like hyenas while we had a great time. I still remember the effect of big strobe lights while tripping balls, dancing with some random hot chick. It was funny, cuz we were tripping, sex wasn’t that primary to us, it’s hard to fuck or even have sex at all on acid. But we both wanted to dance and we simply just started dancing with women who were already on the floor. I probably never danced with so many different girls in my life as I did that night. I didn’t like the disco scene though, for some of the reasons Rollo laid out. I didn’t like the “Disco boy” image. Truthfully, I’m a bit of a snob and it all seemed a bit down-market to me.

    BetaBux is a way out of the burden of performance. It’s the Blue Pill plan B for a Beta man who keeps losing out it the relentless competition that is a male life. Those of us who while in high school or our 20s find we can’t compete on an Alpha basis pursue Beta strategy and then get resentful about it. While I was a bit of a natural, I still had Blue Pill programming about sex so I expected to be love for “who I was”. I felt betrayed when I wasn’t. I was a quasi Natural who was fucked in the head by Blue Pillness. Fyi, one of the funniest things about the Red Pill is recognizing how much of my success early in life came about because I was very good looking. People want to be around good looking people, they hire them, buy from them, promote them – yet I never understood it.

    I had this weird duality for most of my life, never really understood it but it drove me for sure.. Coming into my prime in my late 20s, I was married and in a Blue PIll informed marriage in which my erstwhile wife despised me by this point. What made me unable to put up with it was the interest I was getting from other women. Two very high quality women, as beautiful as my wife and with more to offer in other areas threw themselves at me. I remember going home at this time and observing he way my wife didn’t smile when she saw me and asked, “Am I fucking crazy? Why would I put up with this?” It ended in Frivorce with her having an affair after noticing a distinct change in me – I gave her a loving ultimatum after shortly after that realization and her next decision was to start fucking some guy who was orbiting. Her second marriage lasted 10 years with another divorce for her (she tortures and disposes of men, she’s like a promise that is never kept).

    My point? Men’s adaptation of BetaBux strategy is a shortcut for men and it’s being curtailed greatly. Women’s strategy of open hypergamy, riding the cock carousel when young, delaying settling down with a Beta – these all disadvantage Betas.

    @Anubis – I’ve observed the same thing. I think Alphas have always gotten a lot of pussy, but women were much more on the down-low about it due to the social costs. I also think that women’s ability to act on these impulses were much less so Betas had more power in the bargaining and SMP in general.

    Today? The bottom line is that the entire Red Pill movement can be seen as a revolt of the Betas. While Alphas benefit from spitting the Blue Pill out and waking up, they will not benefit as much as a Beta will. An unconsious natural will have an easier time with women in general after taking the Red Pill and likely increase his already high N, but it’s only a difference in POV and extent for him.

    But for the Beta? For the angry, “Spock” who has seethed his whole life at the “assholes” all the girls he’s ever wanted to fuck seem to prefer? This is nothing short of revolutionary. And this is why so many of them go MGTOW or MRA etc – they can’t handle the fact that they are in a competitive game in which there will always be winners and losers. That sex itself is a competition and they are losing not because it’s “unfair” – they are losing because they aren’t of high enough value to win.

    As Rollo has said many times, women will find a way to fuck you if they want to. I think if Rollo didn’t have the experience of women crawling in his window to fuck him while in his 20s, feeling their white hot, carnal desire running them, he might not be here. I’m sure it’s the study of pyschology as well, but he’s seen something the average Beta doesn’t get in his gut because he’s never experienced it.

    Beta=Loser. BluePill strategy means pursuing equalism, which will make Betas try even harder at a losing strategy “being a good guy”. What’s weird for me is that I did a bit of both, vacillating back and forth, but with meta view that was pure BluePill.

    I think the confusion for many Betas comes down to this. Betas thought they could “earn it” – which is what the Blue Pill taught them. They come to the Red PIll and still think they can “earn” it – the burden of performance seems to imply this. But what many miss is that women are reacting to demonstrated high value. Real value doesn’t come while supplicating yourself to women. The Red Pill is fundamentally a mental shift to, “Fuck me, look at my life and how I’ve lived as a man – I’m the catch. Not her. She’s lucky to be with me – and if she doesn’t feel that way? Next. And oh yeah, if I use game properly I may yet get her tingly enough to gag on my cock.” The Beta approaching game is constantly looking for whether he’s “good enough” and “is it working” with a woman.

    The FIs biggest victory is convincing men how powerful and complicated and spooky women are. They are much simpler than most men believe, and in fact, are dying for men to make their lives simpler. They are also much more scared and confused and overwhelmed by all this than they let on. Men coming to the Red Pill – Beta or Alpha – need to get this. We’ve been bamboozled about the male place on the food chain.

    A human male is the top of foodchain. We are the apex predators and masters of our dominions. Not women. Yet we grovel. Comprehend your full power as a man, first. They are lucky to have us around, not the reverse. One a Beta, Blue Pill man gets that, well then he’s not longer a Beta…

  10. Rollo, …the only real control men had (and still have now) over women’s breeding and birthing outcomes was now grounded in the psychological (Game) or the physical (arousal).

    Not the only control. Men oft influence things by way of religion frowning upon abortion and birth control; some hold an absolute ban. Women are social creatures.

  11. I’m wondering if there’s a nostalgia for an era that didn’t exist. There’s this notion that in the pre-feminist era just as the 60’s were ending that somehow men were tougher.

    There was no “Blue Pill” or “Mystery Method” there was the “cad” and the “Ruffian”…films started showing more Blue Pill guys, Remember MASH? Alan Alda’s Hawkeye was more Blue Pill despite banging chicks.

    I look at my own upbringing and it was in the midst of this that I started to look down on cads as losers but was also puzzled why girls seemed to go for these types while I was always batting well below my sexual marketplace value. I was good looking, young, sporty, fun, had a very high-profile job which should have nabbed me a harem—but it didn’t.

    Now, after learning game 5 years ago I’m where I could have, should have would have been in my 20’s…

    I recently had a chat with my other 50 year old friends. The one guy was the “alpha” of the group. But his daughters are now the age of the girls i’m banging. He’s settled in to wedded bliss and they’re in awe of what i’m doing.

    Game is really about finding that inner confidence to achieve what you want.

    My Red PIll awareness sometimes leads me into a funk—like somehow I was happier believing that there was a “one” out there for me….and that false sense of hope kept me going.

  12. NB – It may also be true that you don’t want to shoulder the burden of performance. That has been my lot, coming to the Red PIll after a massive loss of status/smv/standing due to illness and financial/career problems, at the age of 50 (now 52).

    It took me two years of the Red Pill to admit that I had given up. That I had concluded inside that was defeated. Fyi, this is why my daughter turned on me, Alpha Dad was simply gone. I had my reasons and some people even think they are good ones. But the truth is that I stopped competing and believing it was worth playing after having so many losses and adversity.

    You know what we call that? Being a loser. It’s that simple. And guess what? My SMV is half of what it could be otherwise. My business is a shambles because I gave up. My life is a mess because I gave up. You see, I think there is a codicil to the Blue Pill for men after you swallow the equalism nonsense that is about learning to stop striving. Men are told to be quiet, stop complaining, stop wanting more, but also to keep pulling. We are not supposed to think we deserve more. And when that is internalized? Well, you are in real trouble.

    I’ll tell you guys straight up. My discovering that I had quit in 2005, not realizing it, when I was hospitalized for passing out from anxiety was not the cure for me. It was just the realization. My hopelessness and cynicism and lassitude has curdled into a lazy, diffused, I don’t give a fuckitis. I’m dealing with it, but I cannot claim to have overcome it yet.

    In case I’m not being clear, essentially what I’m saying is that I played the game for a long time, constantly, but after getting my ass kicked so many times I concluded that trying was simply not worth it at a basic level. The real problem is that I had hidden this from myself behind denial, anger and cynicism.

    But here’s what I know now. I can either suit up and sack up and play the game of my life like it matters to me, or have my life dissapate into nothingness, waiting to die. Yes, it is hard to conjure up new dreams at 52 – so what? Does that make it any better to just live a resigned life?

    But the answer isn’t to be “harder” on myself. The Blue Pill has conjured up a deadly combo of self-loathing and self-pity that has overwhelmed my senses and I’m learning to step out of that negative mindset at times now. It’s funny, when I do so, everything seems to fall into place. I feel naturally motivated and optimistic – but as of now that sense is fleeting.

    I am doing better, but as some guys pointed out here, it may take a while for me to find legitimate motivation beyond basic survival. It seems that way, and I’m at a very strange spot in my life. I’m not quite the engine that won’t turn over when you turn the key anymore, but I’d be lying if I said the motor has roared to life. I’m less angry, less tortured, less miserable from it all and the return of some joy seems to be helpful actually. But without a doubt, I am an early work-in-progress.

  13. And here is where your ’60s free love, equalist guy ended up. Notice how you have a visceral impulse to punch him on sight.
    [IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/2q99pax.jpg[/IMG]

  14. Great post Scribblerg. I think betabux seems like a way out of the game for betas, but there is no escaping it. Be a winner, not a loser

  15. “Do I state the bleeding obvious when I observe that prolonged education can only delay maturation – I mean for men. It is however worth remembering that the Romans (being aware of male impetuosity) delayed full male rights until the age of twenty-eight”
    You’re in good company then. My shed-book at the mo. is Montaigne’s Essays and I was about halfway through a couple of days ago. Remembered this bit.
    “Eudemonidas seeing Xenocrates very old laboriously apply himselfe in his schoole-lectures, said, When will this man know something, since he is yet learning?”

    “A man may alwaies continue his study, but not schooling.
    O fond-foolish for an old man to be ever an Abecedarian”.

    Ouch! Quite put me off reading any more for some hours.

  16. @Tam – Well said. Indeed, there is a time for learning and a time for doing. As an aside, my time for “learning” Marxism was about 25 years ago, when I actually did…

    Part of what is unnatural about all this is that I’m having to relearn stuff in my early 50s, it’s just backwards.

  17. @bnon
    “So I wonder, secondly, do men also want a more diverse range of sexual experience than they wanted before?”
    I would say yes

    @opus
    “I mean for men. It is however worth remembering that the Romans (being aware of male impetuosity) delayed full male rights until the age of twenty-eight (twenty-one for females).”
    That’s interesting and rational are brains develop fully around that time as well.

    @anubis
    “He only had his own self-taught experiences to learn from and little teaching. Today we have an unprecedented collective learning and information dissemination going on.”
    That will help so many people living in a world that doesn’t have their best interest at heart. By the way congrats on the marriage an the Sparks.

    @scribblerg
    “What makes such men so angry about open hypergamy is that women make this alpha preference so much more apparent and prevalent, and have lots more time to express it.”

    “BetaBux is a way out of the burden of performance”
    Redpill gold

    “Beta=Loser. BluePill strategy means pursuing equalism, which will make Betas try even harder at a losing strategy “being a good guy”. What’s weird for me is that I did a bit of both, vacillating back and forth, but with meta view that was pure BluePill.”
    Sums up high school

    “The Beta approaching game is constantly looking for whether he’s “good enough” and “is it working” with a woman.”
    True that is true

    “But the truth is that I stopped competing and believing it was worth playing after having so many losses and adversity.”
    I have lost the battle against given up this morning. But than I did. Keep at it.

    “I played the game for a long time, constantly, but after getting my ass kicked so many times I concluded that trying was simply not worth it at a basic level. The real problem is that I had hidden this from myself behind denial, anger and cynicism.”

    That’s a good example of a relationship I’ve had with myself.

    @walawala
    “Game is really about finding that inner confidence to achieve what you want.”
    I think so as well

    @Badpainter
    Middle rock stars giving up an the FI and just losing the battle of fighting it but pushing it back none the less. Least what I get out of it.

    The sounds are amazing. The original two brothers where e s posthumus which made amazing sounds.

  18. “They are also much more scared and confused and overwhelmed by all this than they let on. Men coming to the Red Pill – Beta or Alpha – need to get this. We’ve been bamboozled about the male place on the food chain.”

    It’s amazing what you can get accomplished (and get away with lol) when you realize that 99% of the people you come in contact with everyday are desperate for validation…including most women.

    One of the best re-frames I have ever taught myself is, “I wonder if I will like this person?”

  19. “I should have chasing and pumping as many younger gals as I could game. But oh no, the way to be I though was to be ‘above all that’ and find someone who would ‘mutually honor what’s on the inside’ as Rollo so well put it.”

    Same here. I’m sure I could of been successful with women as a teen and young man, but I chose to reject that way of life.

    I was raised in a very religious household. Pre-marital sex was bad. You will burn in hell for that. Not only will God not approve, but neither will your parents, and we NEVER forget.

    My mother is a rape victim. (not this fake rape “mattress girl” horseshit, but actual rape, with a side of attempted murder)

    So….men are bad, you must respect women, never chase a woman, always ask permission, take your time, go slow, make sure she is comfortable.

    Oh yeah, I also wish you were a girl so that the world would not have another man in it.

    Encouraged feminine traits and punished masculine traits. Barbies and My little pony anyone?

    I was taken out of school in 3rd grade because I ended up with a male teacher. Can’t have a man around my boy!

    Left our Christian home school group because the guy running it was far too out-going. “Out-going men like that only want one thing…sex. And he’s running a home-school program? He’s the type to molest your sisters, it’s our job to protect them from men like him”

    So alpha = child molester that only wants sex. And sex is BAD. lol

    In all honesty, I was actually pretty alpha in personality. But, it got emotionally beat out of me.

    It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.

  20. Rollo, to your point about naturals benefitting from Game. I find that my natural game is more effective when I don’t try to be alpha. My frame uses lots of push with very little pull and it’s more effective than trying to do witty wordplay. Strong subvocals, get the woman to talk about herself, then instigate for some isolation (go for a walk, go to my truck, etc.). That works just fine.

  21. One thing that still thwarts ideological feminism today is that its perceived goal states contradict human beings’ natural states. This contradiction gets narratively blamed on men not wanting to cooperate with feminism, but even the most ardent feminist is still guilty of her own biology and arousal triggers contradicting herself.

    Biology trumps conviction.

  22. @caveclown
    “I wonder if I will like this person?”
    Behavior
    “So….men are bad, you must respect women, never chase a woman, always ask permission, take your time, go slow, make sure she is comfortable.”
    Oh that sounds like a dinner conversation.
    “So alpha = child molester that only wants sex. And sex is BAD. lol
    In all honesty, I was actually pretty alpha in personality. But, it got emotionally beat out of me.

    It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.”

    Me to I’ve had my alpha appear in the most desperate attempts at me not taking my own life and moving me in the right direction. Away from home…

    Alpha has dreams of burning down home.

    @theasdgamer

    “Strong subvocals, get the woman to talk about herself, then instigate for some isolation (go for a walk, go to my truck, etc.). That works just fine.”

    I take walks or go on bike.

    https://vimeo.com/100150742

    All american solitude the dessert.

    @Roger G

    Biology trumps conviction.

    Alpha is a mindset

  23. There is training, besides being and realization of one’s masculinity. I could use training in being more playful just because I’d like to get in that mode on occasion. When I’m around fun people, I tend to be more playful. It would be nice to be able to generate that on my own.

  24. scribblerg ~ very much enjoying your writing. Your life patterns, experiences actions, reactions, timeline and all seem very similar to my own. With a few minor detail changes you are writing my biography even to the point of currently being demotivated for anything other than basic survival… it’s uncanny how closely your experiences match my own…

    Born in ’62 and am 53 now, came of age in the 70’s… same same

    “we were taught that it was on the inside that counts. This was laid on top of a traditional male ideal that included heavy doses of chivalry, romance/courtly love and vassalization to women.”

    [ya… what a crock that turned out to be]

    “I had this weird duality for most of my life, never really understood it but it drove me for sure.. Coming into my prime in my late 20s, I was married and in a Blue Pill informed marriage in which my erstwhile wife despised me by this point. What made me unable to put up with it was the interest I was getting from other women.

    [in my case it was a heroic single mother suing me for child support – her choice – my debt – pay or go to jail was my first long term introduction to the bitter taste of the Red Pill – I was 23]

    “This is nothing short of revolutionary. And this is why so many of them go MGTOW or MRA etc – they can’t handle the fact that they are in a competitive game in which there will always be winners and losers.

    [I have been both winner and loser and am here now with apathy for either. But if I were to label myself I’d say MGTOW because I have literally ‘checked out’ unless the effort and participation are on my terms. But at the same time I’m being supported by my GF who works for the State Gov’t… therefore I’m literally parasitizing the parasite like a true Activist. By removing the ‘burden to perform’ from my life, I have inadvertently become an activist.]

    “That sex itself is a competition and they are losing not because it’s “unfair” – they are losing because they aren’t of high enough value to win.

    [achieving success to make ourselves high value is the whole game/set/match for men. Anything else is unacceptable, threatening and/or illegal. Living up to the ideals of the FI then makes us attractive to women/culture/society – however being high value also makes a man a host for all the pretty-parasites – that’s your reward for being high value – you get to pay the bills… But with Red Pill knowledge a man might use his high value to pump n dump, spin plates, etc – and while having multiple relationships with women can be fun it can also be a nightmare ~ which is why I am despondent. Damned if I do – damned if I don’t… ]

    “The FIs biggest victory is convincing men how powerful and complicated and spooky women are. They are much simpler than most men believe, and in fact, are dying for men to make their lives simpler.

    [well said]

    “…don’t want to shoulder the burden of performance. That has been my lot, coming to the Red PIll after a massive loss of status/smv/standing due to illness and financial/career problems, at the age of 50 (now 52).

    [I, like Rollo, spent many years on stage as a drummer/vocalist touring throughout the western states back in the 80’s – 90’s then performed locally for many years after that as I took up residence in the N. CA foothills ~ I have also performed as CEO of a telecommunications hardware brokerage company where I owned and operated the business for over a decade ~ as a sub-contractor cartographer working within the Forestry Industry drawing maps with skills obtained through a BA in Graphic design – performed as a truck driver, construction worker, land-scaping… the burden of performance and provision is something I know only too well and have concluded that I am burnt out on “Throwing pearls before swine”; basing my value on my latest performance, my latest pay check, working for approval/acceptance into a parasitic, entitled, misogynistic culture…]

    “It took me two years of the Red Pill to admit that I had given up. That I had concluded inside that was defeated. Fyi, this is why my daughter turned on me, Alpha Dad was simply gone.

    [yep I’m dealing with these very same things as well…]

    “I had my reasons and some people even think they are good ones. But the truth is that I stopped competing and believing it was worth playing after having so many losses and adversity.

    [me too… one can only suffer so many disappointments, losses and adversity before ‘the fight’ simply loses meaning.]

    “You know what we call that? Being a loser. It’s that simple.

    [and through being a loser I find a strange satisfaction every time the bills come due for other people’s choices and decisions – I don’t pay – I’m broke. Don’t even look at me for money – I’m a loser. The world is now having to value me for all the other things I am and do or get rid of me because providing money isn’t an option. It becomes obvious who values what very quickly when ‘the man’ isn’t providing cash any more.]

    “I’ll tell you guys straight up. My discovering that I had quit in 2005, not realizing it, when I was hospitalized for passing out from anxiety was not the cure for me. It was just the realization. My hopelessness and cynicism and lassitude has curdled into a lazy, diffused, I don’t give a fuckitis.

    [2009/2010 after the initial effects of the mortgage scam / bank bail outs tanked the US and European markets is when my brokerage business dissipated and other various attempts to make a living fell through… many other factors piled up as well [divorce, DV, CS, legal threats and procedures – no jail time for me but heart/soul crippled and destroyed without prosthetic] and after 30 years of working with nothing to show ~ even the equity on my house of 15 years was gone. I quit sometime around 2011. And I am no stranger to panic/anxiety attacks. However I have not seen the inside of a hospital due to that. I had to deal with anxiety dysfunctions the decade prior {throughout 2000-2010} and seem to have those panic-demons converted into ‘red-flags’ or spiritual-guides.]

    “In case I’m not being clear, essentially what I’m saying is that I played the game for a long time, constantly, but after getting my ass kicked so many times I concluded that trying was simply not worth it at a basic level.

    [yep – me too]

    “Yes, it is hard to conjure up new dreams at 52 – so what?

    [I’m thinking I’ll go back to being a rock star again – back to the 20 something dream but instead of moving, setting up, tearing down and playing a huge drum set in a rock band, I’ll take my compact, futuristic and better sounding digital percussion gear {ZenDrum, Roland, JBL…] and join DJ/Dance performances adding live percussion to their show – !]

    “But the answer isn’t to be “harder” on myself. The Blue Pill has conjured up a deadly combo of self-loathing and self-pity that has overwhelmed my senses and I’m learning to step out of that negative mindset at times now. It’s funny, when I do so, everything seems to fall into place. I feel naturally motivated and optimistic – but as of now that sense is fleeting.

    [The feelings of optimism, happiness and joy are far and few in between … “a good day aint got no pain – and a bad day is when I lie in bed and think of rings that might have been”. Slip Slidin’ Away – Paul Simon. Once the male ceases to work for excess provision and the benefit of others then he’s “a failure” and no other alternative is afforded him. So he makes his own alternative and ignores the shame… one option is to cease participation in a system designed to exploit and abandon. An option which starves the hateful system while giving the man a much needed break.]

  25. ” . . .men need to let themselves be Alpha, not try to be Alpha.”

    The arrow releases itself and finds the target.

    And I have just been targeted and blocked by RoK. Hi ho.

  26. “”It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.”
    Me to I’ve had my alpha appear in the most desperate attempts at me not taking my own life and moving me in the right direction. Away from home…
    Alpha has dreams of burning down home.”

    Say what?

    No offense friend, I don’t know what flavor of english you speak, but I speak american…could you translate? I have no idea what this means lol

  27. @Highwasp
    “I’m literally parasitizing the parasite like a true Activist. By removing the ‘burden to perform’ from my life, I have inadvertently become an activist.]”
    Me to that’s a good thing to change now and think about.

    @Rollo
    “Many couples start by looking for a single, bisexual woman, a quest known as “hunting the unicorn.”

    That happens here in DC a lot.

    @kfg
    “And I have just been targeted and blocked by RoK. Hi ho.”
    Makes me think of @Badpainter working man something for nothing

    It all comes off as a threat which gets most people banned. Well at least most Alphas who tolerate open free speech and are not in conflict allow that I do think I read somewhere that Vikings in conflict wouldn’t allow to challenge them in times of war. You would have to wait till after the conflict before you could attempt to do this.
    https://www.law.stanford.edu/organizations/programs-and-centers/transatlantic-technology-law-forum/regulating-freedom-of-speech-on-social-media-comparing-the

  28. @Caveclown
    “It’s taken awhile to retrain myself to be alpha and to embrace it.”
    Me to I’ve had my alpha appear in the most desperate attempts at me not taking my own life and moving me in the right direction. Away from home…
    Alpha has dreams of burning down home.”

    Say what?

    Went home to see my dad got angry because he expected something special. I was dreaming of burning down my house with no one it it and rebuilding a new one that could hold better dreams. The Alpha I have repressed for all the wrong reasons is in me and he’s pissed because he never had time to breath and thrive. I speak manly French which is why my flavor of English is more weird that not. Avoid my direct kin is the bed redpill gilft I can give myself.

  29. @kfg, I see Forney is dutifully carrying Roosh’s retromasculinity water to the MGTOWs today.

    Funny how comfortable they are in using the same dismissives that the Jezzies have always used against their own.

    I expect similar hit pieces are warming up for MRAs and TRP in the next week. Roosh has to plow the fields before his first world tour appearance this weekend.

    At least the comments are encouraging. The Manosphere is smarter than Roosh probably expected. They know he and RoK have officially jumped the shark.

  30. Rollo, reading the diatribes against MGTOW’s from Forney, Roosh, etc. is giving me flashbacks. Am I reading “retromasculine” men, or am I reading late 90’s early 00’s rainbow-haired feminists? There’s almost no difference.

    Anyone can see it, too, it’s all there, and it’s all right out of the Feminist Shaming Language template. “Basement dwelling, porn addicted, can’t get laid”, yatta, yatta, yatta.

    What next, Forney and Roosh teaming up to suddenly discover that lifting is good for T? Anything for a buck, I guess.

  31. The Manosphere is smarter than Roosh probably expected.

    People have been telling me for a while how intelligent Roosh is, but frankly I’ve never been able to see any evidence. He seems to be slightly above average and that’s it, in my opinion.

  32. Anyone else see the irony in Roosh’s posts about women not bringing value to a man’s life in contrast to Matt’s article?

    rooshv.com/do-women-improve-the-lives-of-men

    rooshv.com/women-have-reduced-themselves-to-sexual-commodities

    What’s funny is I suffered through Obsidian’s youtube sermon about how “bruthahs need to come together” after Roosh went retro-masc cult leader and made me sound like I had the problem.

    Obs if you’re reading me, it aint me bruthah.

  33. “Funny how comfortable they are in using the same dismissives that the Jezzies have always used against their own.”

    It would seem the purge is on, the Cone of Echo has been lowered and it has truly become Jezebel for Boys.

    “At least the comments are encouraging.”

    When Roosh first floated the Neomasculinity trial balloon at RoK the response wasn’t really very different from what it received at TRP. I figured he’d take the hint, fall back for while, and let the idea fade while he looked for another avenue of approach, but he went with double down instead.

    “Roosh has to plow the fields before his first world tour appearance this weekend.”

    I have no idea what the man is like in the flesh, but I’ve felt that he was born to write, because on video he has the affect of a chalkboard and even his living spaces show no sign of actually being occupied by a personality.

    It will be interesting to see any video of him that comes out, speaking before a live audience. If he can’t pull some charisma out of somewhere, it’s going to be a problem for him as the prospective leader of a movement.

  34. @kfg
    “It will be interesting to see any video of him that comes out, speaking before a live audience. If he can’t pull some charisma out of somewhere, it’s going to be a problem for him as the prospective leader of a movement.”
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MnIJxcqSKgY
    Online personality a don’t stand against a human conception of how you feel and what you do. Roissy put out a good post today on online dating and lack of actual human communication. Peer to peer Rapport and engaging in human dialogue it also goes back to rejection which I am still dealing with in social situations. When you meet people you love from an online presence it changes the magic of the Internet which in the long run is better for your mental development. Social media has made everyone a snow flake. Women seem to benefit more from it than men. Men got WordPress women got Twitter Facebook tinder tumbler etc….

  35. What I said about the military: it makes you grow up fast.

    And what I also said was that outlaw MC gangs were early fans of the Grateful Dead.

  36. scribblerg
    June 22nd, 2015 at 9:14 am

    Old martial arts/Zen saying. “The miracle is not that I got knocked down. The miracle is that I got up. Again.”

  37. @ walawala “Game is really about finding that inner confidence to achieve what you want.”

    RP nugget of gold right there.

    Occasionally I go back and read Rollo’s archives going back to 2011 and there you are – learning, and putting it out there. Your Game focus is top-shelf, and now it would seem the plates you are spinning are also top-shelf. Bravo.

    I’m working on getting to that level of inner Game to spin younger hotter plates. I just can’t seem to crack through the hb6-7 glass ceiling. I “believe” I can spin hb6-7’s, but I’m still yet to believe I can spin hb8-9’s. Admittedly, I haven’t exactly give myself opportunities to approach many in the latter category – but I have a new exciting Game strategy I’m going to employ over the next few months.

    ” My Red PIll awareness sometimes leads me into a funk—like somehow I was happier believing that there was a “one” out there for me….and that false sense of hope kept me going.”

    Deep down, I always knew there was something wrong with “the one” fallacy. Even having married a very attractive women and having massive oneitis for many years, I still on occasion didn’t hesitate to bang other women opportunistically.
    Once I read my first Rollo’s post ‘There is No One’ it was almost a vindication or the light bulb moment that I knew I was right all along…

  38. Women’s attitude and the FI –> “I AM the prize.”

    And that leads to men supplicating… Weakness.

    Man’s attitude —> “I AM the prize.”

    All is right in the world.

    Was just discussing that with the LTR. And she started in with “equalism.” I said, “That doesn’t give you tingles.” She, “You are right.” Me, “Wouldn’t you prefer tingles?” Her, “Yes.”

    The shit testing NEVER ends. But I shit test her back. “I went through women looking for one who wanted me no matter what.” Her, “That’s me.”

  39. rugby11ljh
    June 22nd, 2015 at 3:22 pm

    Lesbians can work out nicely. If they at least like the guy and have a mutual interest. I met a lesbian girl once who was as deep into Aleister Crowley as I was….. Well we used to get naked together. Along with her bi GF. Good times.

  40. Rollo and Gentlemen,

    Here is a question that I would like your perspective on. Rollo has written about how men are the true romantics who love idealistically. However, women love opportunistically – they love a man for what he can do for them. If they love that way, would they also not expect to receive love that way? Would they not instinctively feel the need to be of maximum use in order to be loved? Dare I say perform? I wonder if they really feel this to be true, and we see such push back to “be loved just the way I am” because intuitively on the whole women know they are falling short to what the typical man brings to the table and wish for the proverbial cat not to be let out of the bag; or is it more that most women being raised their whole life being told how wonderful they are believe that they are bringing more to the relationship than a man can possibly appreciate. Or maybe perhaps they love opportunistically but receive love idealistically (although this would not make sense to me).

    As always, your insights gentlemen are a good sounding board.

    Thanks.

  41. Got banned from RoK three maybe four years ago. I was on point but also mentioned cannabis. That was it.

    I had a rotation going on. Now it is just TRM.

  42. @M. Simon – Well said, brother. I also want to say publicly here that I appreciated your offer to mentor me a while back, it was not a trivial thing to offer. I reflexively could not make myself go through with it as what’s really so is that I’m a grown man who has lived well and know damn well how to do so.I don’t need to learn anything, I need to actualize what I’ve learned and exert some discipline and form new, constructive habits again. This is a journey I must take alone, I have to face down my demons in single combat. But thanks very much, it was nice for you to reach out your hand like that.

    But I’m stronger than fucking dirt. My whole issue is getting over my anger and frustration with myself, and my shame at who I’ve allowed myself to become. As this all eases, things are shifting for me nicely. But i’m probably at 20% of what I know I’m capable of. The biggest chink in the armor now is consistency, but it’s a big step up from utter torpor. I’d developed the volition of a snail, it was truly terrifying. So now I’m a bit all over the place, up and down a bit, sure, but nowhere near as fucked up as I was. Which is nice, I have that going for me…

    @Highwasp – Glad to have you here, great stuff. Encourage you to reconsider MGTOW and financial self-immolation though…

  43. @8 at the gate
    Both nothing is unique i find that it depends. Nothing about is unique when I get feedback here.
    Women can cope like men and men can cope like women depending on where your coming from. Women who enjoy movies will blue pill the shit out of it. If they want to creat an idealized Disney like fairy tale they will. But when you see them in the real world they resent you or at least me for not “wanted” to perfom.
    That was my biggest mistake growing up. Refusing to have to ask for emotional validation yet not understanding myself well enought to respect my desires and needs.
    Women will attack your outlets of escape if you do not perform. Women have a very sensitive perception of oppurtunism love. The only mistake I’ve made with a one nigth stand is not understanding what I was getting into. The women like just like mother and I couldn’t resist sleepin next to her warm soothing body. But I was beta blue pill hardcore that tore me to shreds. She is I 330 never use the word I women use I but men are more than I men are X and Y women are xx the men choose the gender at the end whether it be female or male for child birth. I think nature is beautiful when you understand yourself and place in it.

  44. scribblerg
    June 22nd, 2015 at 8:54 pm

    It took me 3 years of incredible discipline to give up my anger (a childhood artifact having nothing to do with Blue Pill). The first 6 months was the hardest. Even so there were breaks from time to time. You just repair the damage and reestablish the discipline.

    Now a days the anger is on a switch. It is a tool, not my master.

  45. @8 in the Gate

    M Simon points out how much the frame matters. If you’re the prize, she falls into your (fundamentally idealistic) frame. Idealism can set the frame if you want it. If she is the ‘prize,’ then her opportunism sets the frame and the relationship is in rocky waters the instant she perceives (rightly or wrongly) that she has better options.

    As a default though, when not in a relationship, it seems women use idealistic rationalizations as a socially acceptable front for their opportunism – and believe men are doing the same. So they are surprised and dismayed if they see evidence that a man actually believed all the talk, took it literally.

    I’ve been the chump that confronted a former flame with the ‘why did you leave, I though we were forever‘ talk. Her response was basically to list a variety of practical reasons it didn’t work out, with an exasperated ‘you do know relationships sometimes just don’t work out, right? It’s better this way.’ She buried her head in her hands in frustration and dismay; why couldn’t she get it through to me? What wasn’t I understanding? Why was I still in so much pain?

    She just couldn’t get it.

    Now, most of the time, neither would I. Why hold relationships to an ideal? Experience them. Hold yourself to an ideal.

  46. Regarding the Atlantic article,
    I would love if Rollo or you men help me understand the psychological reasons why a man is okay (or aroused) when he wants another guy to fuck his wife.
    And the same for a woman who gets turned on by wanting her husband to fuck another woman.

    Is it the humiliation?
    Is it masochistic?

  47. @Forge
    Glad you still in the sky!!!

    @M Simon
    “Who better to manage stasis than some one with an interest in preventing change?”
    That’s a serious root in my trauma that still hurts to bring up because how fundamentally Bluepill it is.
    Confidence at this point in my life is knowin that and moving on.
    https://vimeo.com/108308539/
    It’s still hard to admit to myself how wrong I am about the way the world actually works.

  48. rugby11ljh
    June 22nd, 2015 at 11:14 pm

    Don’t take it so personally. I was a Communist in my youth. It all seemed so idealistic. It seemed like it could work. And then came the mass murders. Again.

    =========

    @ Mr. T

    Why would a Beta want some one else in his GF? Well maybe she “makes it up to him” after. Other wise he isn’t getting ANY.

    Maybe he has oneitis and will do anything for her.

    =========

    BTW I get you have fallen for that stuff because you are mining the SJWs. Big hint. They don’t care about your politics as long as you give them the tingles.

  49. @Mr T
    “help me understand the psychological reasons why a man is okay (or aroused) when he wants another guy to fuck his wife.
    And the same for a woman who gets turned on by wanting her husband to fuck another woman.

    Is it the humiliation?
    Is it masochistic?”

    For me growing up with both parents have external sex outside of marriage I never developed what. A heathy relationship looks like. If you where to look at what Robert glover talks about in No more Mr nice guy he goes over a list of things are beta and based off assumptions. I’ve meet lots of people in the DC area who don’t see marriage the same way you would in the areas of Utah and Arizona for example. But no one person gets the same emotional response in the same sexual way. As males we have testosterone. As females they have attention for currency. Here’s a link to a Robert Glover interview http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OrTYLwj_Tk

    Here a good doc by Jamie Morgan about people speaking about what they see and feel about that.

    https://www.fandor.com/films/the_workshop

    For me if you looked at the porn that turned me on growing up it was all to get away from the burden of performance. Easy access no work and drama. I think it also made me feel protected from being rejected so much. But divorce porn seems to have gotten bigger since the Internet.

  50. @M Simon
    Not a cumminsist had a good friend my Age escape the wall in Germany and got hunted by dogs through a mine field. He swam to a boat and became a stowaway. Came to
    Miami built one of the largest bakery’s and than moved and sold it.
    @Mr T
    “Okay, what about the woman who wants to see her guy fucking another woman”
    I’ve meet them and it happens more often than not and usually only disclosed in certain circles. All women have XX in their chromosomes so their all lips. From top to bottom seening a man with another women makes me think about what Rollo said when he put it this way “Women fuck men other women want to fuck.” That’s a prime example. In my colloge blue pill days a friends mom and roommate seduced me and again missed opportunity to play. But now in the red pill I would hold engage.

  51. @ Forge the Sky

    Thanks, I appreciate it.

    Little aside here:

    The magic question is “How do you know?”

    -Problem
    -Interrupt with “How do you know (e.g. that you have this problem)?”
    -Layers to the problem start to be revealed
    -Address layers one by one

    Example:

    -Suicidal
    -How do you know you’re suicidal?
    -I can’t have a life I want to live.
    -How do you know you can’t have a life you want to live?
    -I fuck up everything. I’m a fuck up
    -How do you know you’re a fuck up?
    -Here’s where the ‘proof’ starts coming in, i.e., memories that support the belief system.

    Asking “How do you know?” gets the layers to start showing up. Once the layers start showing up is when you start doing the work of clearing everything out and letting go, and re-installing a new belief system after the emotional charge that supports the old belief system is released (it’s the emotional charge that keeps the belief systems active).

    (e.g. if you think you’re a fuck-up, you need to have memories that support this belief. Memories of perceiving yourself as a fuck-up, someone else calling you a fuck-up, or anything that supports that belief. When you release the emotional charge associated with the memories that support the belief, the belief starts to crumble. When you pull the emotions out of it completely, then you can start installing a new belief system.

    e.g., the idea of future pacing — imagine yourself as being very successful instead of a fuck up. The polar opposite. Like for me it would be banging lots of hot girls, having a great time with women, and doing something I love to do to support myself instead of feeling like I’m at the complete mercy of everyone around me. Imagine, notice any resistance that comes up, release it and let it go — I prefer to use EFT style tapping for this, except using the simple phrase “let it go” as I tap on each point, and generic phrases like “it’s safe to let it go,” “I’m okay as I let this go,” “I’ll still be me if I let this go, I’ll just have more personal power and control”, etc. This is the tool, like a wrench or a screwdriver, for doing the work and making real progress)

    The layers are the structure to the problem.

    So I’ve still been feeling suicidal, but I’ve been using this method to deal with it.

    Emotionally charged memories support belief systems, for better or for worse.

    So similarly to how I see addiction, I’m not really recovering from being suicidal: it’s recovering from the belief systems I have that would make me even entertain suicide so readily as an option.

    The suicidal impulse is just a metaphor, even if it manifests in reality. The emotionally charged memories and belief systems that would lead up to suicide are the lion’s share of the actual problem.

    Adopting this attitude and integrating it into my life has been a major part of my recovery, or as I’d rather call it, transformation.

  52. Mr T
    June 22nd, 2015 at 11:54 pm

    “When I see you with her it makes me so hot for you.” – The ultimate dread game. Happened to me a little tonight. Girl was giving me some extra friendly hugs.

    Me. “Did it make you jealous?”
    LTR. “Yeah”
    Me. “Did it make you hot for me?
    LTR. “Oh. Yeah.”

  53. @Mr T

    Not directed at me, but um.

    What do you mean by an ‘adolescent answer?’ Why is psychology better than such an answer? Seems like a strange metric.

    I prefer ‘true’ answers myself, whether they be in limerick or peer-reviewed abstract form.

    Would an adolescent answer be me telling you the hottest sex I had was when my GF thought I was fucking another girl (even when I wasn’t)? Cause that’s true.

    This is also true. Heterosexual men and women are both very sexually drawn to opposite-gendered persons who demonstrate high mate value. Due to innate differences in drives and measures of value, it is a very high demonstration of value for a man to fuck diverse women. It is not much of a DHV for women to fuck diverse men.

    So men who are aroused by their women fucking other men have some sort of esteem or transference issue, or they get something else pathological out of it that I don’t understand. Women who are aroused by their men fucking other women are normal – though of course the visceral instinct is channeled and controlled by various sociological factors in usual circumstances.

  54. @Rugby

    It’s interesting how porn seems to draw a clear expression of pathology from people – even those who are seemingly mentally well. Those who don’t feel worthy or able of giving women a good fuck imagine another man doing it, hence cuckold porn. Those who feel so weak they can’t imagine having sexual power over a grown women pursue pedophilia/cartoon porn.

    I never had crazy fetishes or anything, but when I was younger I thought I was really attracted to tomboys/boyish girls. Then I tried to fuck one of them and it was a total turnoff. For both of us.

    I found my balls once or twice and did more or less what I pleased with her – ignoring her brief ‘don’t, it’s weird’ canards – and was astonished at how well we were together.

    And then she started going on about what ‘chemistry’ we had lol.

    It was all an attempt at reasoned, identification-based attraction. As in, ‘Maybe if I can find a girl more ‘like me’ we’ll have a good relationship.’

    As though cleavage in a yellow summer dress didn’t turn me on more than biceps under overalls lol.

  55. @Forge the sky
    “Those who don’t feel worthy or able of giving women a good fuck imagine another man doing it, hence cuckold porn.”

    It’s more than that to me it’s the deep fear of development. Man I am 27 and I am so far away from where I can be.
    Fabian and the FI make use of easy cheap gimmicks with “Free” stuff

    While personal choice and accountability help put you more in the drivers seat.

    One last one
    Mirror neurons and game as an adult male. Coping with positive social skills and not negative maladaptive ones.
    Goodnigth Brother Forge

  56. Softek
    June 23rd, 2015 at 12:18 am

    Addiction as an imprinted belief system. Very good. Here is how I put it:

    People in chronic pain chronically take pain relievers. PTSD mostly.

  57. “The arousing ‘macho’ men, the Alphas of the era, would systematically become the most ridiculed parodies and caricatures of masculinity as women came into a better understanding of the power they were only beginning to realize and the Beta men took their perceived revenge.”

    I’ve got to admit that is a very astute observation of the AFBBs Sandbergian sexual strategy playing out generationally.

    Looking back to the 80s and 90s there certainly was a glut of family themed TV programming. What makes it even more interesting is that a lot of the shows involved divorcees and mixed families.

    I guess the ‘Dad’ Bod (BB) theme is Gen X and Gen Y females advertising their readiness to settle after playing the field.

    I’m out of the TV loop nowadays but How I Met Your Mother, Big Bang Theory and heck even Two Dads ended up playing out the BB theme.

    FI subterfuge…?

  58. Softek
    June 23rd, 2015 at 12:18 am

    FWIW and assuming you live where you can take advantage – cannabis use is associated with lower suicide rates.

  59. It’s interesting how porn seems to draw a clear expression of pathology from people – even those who are seemingly mentally well. Those who don’t feel worthy or able of giving women a good fuck imagine another man doing it, hence cuckold porn.

    I have stumbled into that on occasion. There once was a series on that. I watched a couple of them before I just couldn’t stand it anymore. “Amateur” guys would bring their GF and watch a pro roger her. All the while the BF is cringing and she is raving about how good the pro is. So much better than the worm. That stuff is just disgusting. There is a woman I saw in one of those. A body type I’m normally attracted to. I can’t stand to look at her. She was verbally abusing the BF to the max.

    I don’t get the attraction to that. I wouldn’t want to be either of those guys.

  60. M Simon
    The women I dated would freak out at me when I looked at other women.
    A woman who is with an alpha would fight other women to keep him for herself, a woman who doesn’t fight to keep her man for herself is a woman who is with a beta.
    when you value something, you want to keep it for yourself.

  61. Mr T
    June 23rd, 2015 at 8:46 am

    Ah. So you are ignorant of dread game. Pity.

    And she has been watching other women come on to me spontaneously for 40 years. She likes it. It validates her choice. We went into an eatery once to pick up some food. Some gay girl came on to me so intense it made her stagger. And her partner was daggers. Funny. The LTR was amused.

    And she does fight to keep me – by perfecting her surrender. All she can do is want me more than any other woman can. And she does. One of her favorite games is giving another woman a shot and then winning me back. Completely. Quite enjoyable I must say.

    Bernard Shaw said this. And this blog is all about what old Bernie said :

    the maternal instinct leads a woman to prefer a tenth share in a first rate man to the exclusive possession of a third rate one

    Hypergamy in a nutshell.

  62. Back when the Spearhead was still online, one of the older commenters made an interesting observation about the Free Love era. The male leader figures of the hippie movement, especially commune leaders, normally had soft harems, and hippie chicks normally wanted to join. When their boyfriends objected, the women started complaining of “male possessiveness” and joined the harems anyway. Even back then it should have been obvious to anyone with functioning eyes is that the doctrine of free love is simply female hypergamy unleashed.

  63. Two questions.

    Apropos Artificial Birth Control: when did Condoms become available? I ask because I have had more than one promiscuous girlfriend refusing to go on the pill (which would have seemed sensible) but insisting on Condoms. If the answer is way pre-60s then would our conception of sexual purity for the unmarried pre-1960 be somewhat mistaken.

    Again, does anyone have a clue as to how prevalent ‘back-street’ abortion was pre-1970. It clearly existed (see Frederick Raphael’s Oscar-winning Darling from 1965). It was frowned on as unsafe but that just strikes me as turf-war rhetoric from the medical profession hoping to clean up on a monopoly of medical procedures. Given that one in five foetus’s (foetii) are aborted this must have been a potentially lucrative trade worth taking.

  64. Anyone else see the irony in Roosh’s posts about women not bringing value to a man’s life in contrast to Matt’s article?

    I’m pretty sure they see no irony whatsoever. Their view is that, all in all, the game offers diminishing returns for men, but real men are still supposed to play it. In other words, yes, women are becoming fatter and more irritating everywhere, feminism is spreading around the globe, the global economy will continue to stagnate etc., but none of that is an excuse to opt out. Because you owe it to yourself as a man to march on and continue the struggle.

    The probably reason for this narrative isn’t that they are genuinely concerned about the future of masculinity, or about the well-being of the men they are imploring to follow their creed. It’s that they are afraid of the future, because they know it won’t validate their ideals. The same applies to tradcons and even some feminists, which explains why they are increasingly pushing a very similar narrative about the societal crisis of masculinity and the need for the masses of men to finally man up.

    That’s why they assert that MGTOW is nothing but a passing fad, as Forney says, even though every conceivable piece of evidence is suggesting the opposite. It’s wishful thinking, plain and simple.

    At the end of the day, people normally have ideals, a point of view they are invested in, and they want to see that validated. They want the future to prove them right. And it’s not pleasant when the opposite happens.

    Let’s suppose you’re running a gym, and you’re a huge fan of working out. How would you feel if you were constantly bombarded with news of more and more people giving up working out, gyms going bankrupt and so on?

    The following is a comment from Retrenched posted on Novaseeker’s blog back in 2013. It probably sums up the situation perfectly:

    Another reason why MGTOWs get less respect is that, while PUAs are looking for ways to work around or beat the messed-up system, MGTOWs are just walking away from it. And we, as human beings, have very little respect for men who avoid danger or who back away from challenges and trials. We understand why women might want to step away from bad, dangerous or difficult situations, but we have no respect or patience for men who do the same. People may acknowledge how unfair and rigged the game is against men, but they still expect men to play it to the best of their ability.

    And while women and tradcon men may find the PUA’s lifestyle choices to be morally repugnant, they do respect him on some level (even though they may not admit it) for trying to make the best of a bad situation instead of just walking away from it like the MGTOW does.

  65. @Opus, latex condoms have been available since at least the 1940’s (American soldiers in WWII called them ‘Jiffys’).

    See my quote about illegitimate births and abortion during the WWII era from the first post.

  66. Mr T
    June 23rd, 2015 at 9:11 am

    How exactly do I hide that women come on to me (not frequently – I’m no rock star – a few times a year) in public? How do I hide that they get “stupid attracted” in my presence?

    A few years back at an art show an early 20 something (still in or just out of college) was making passes. Eventually (after a couple of days) her friends had a word with her. I was 67 or 68 at the time. The LTR was watching all this. She was amused. I asked her later why. “You have the same effect on me. But I was/am determined to keep you.”

    hoellenhund2
    June 23rd, 2015 at 11:09 am

    Back in that era I lived in an “Alpha house” for a while. There was “top alpha” who was going through two or three women a week and the rest of us – my brother was one – who got his leftovers and rejects. Of course not knowing any better we thought it was “Free Love”. I tended to keep them a little longer. Two weeks to a month. And of course I was getting some on my own from time to time. Pussy gone wild.

    Funny thing – unlike a lot of guys I maintained good relations with the ladies after we broke up. A lot of my exes maintained good relations with my current. And the LTR got to meet a bunch of my exes. She was good friends with one for several years until we moved away from the area.

  67. @hollen, that’s an interesting take when you think about it. Really, what’s Roosh been doing for the past decade if not going his own way? He decided that a Blue Pill life of domestic indenturement with a wife and a day job wasn’t for him so he went his own way by learning Game, moving to various countries where his Game was most efficient with the variety of women he wanted to bang.

    I think the mistake is to think of MGTOWs as all being cut from the same Isolationist cloth and retreating into a life of Basement Dwelling Virgins®. If anything, becoming Red Pill aware leaves a man no other choice than to recreate himself in a new way that prioritizes his best interests above that of women. What he does with that new individualist identity after that is what’s in question, but lets face it, if you’re Red Pill aware you will go your own way at some point – even if that’s simply unplugging from a Blue Pill conditioned paradigm and doing what’s best for yourself.

  68. Rollo Tomassi
    June 23rd, 2015 at 12:37 pm

    Basement Dwelling Virgins® – BDV – I like it. It kinda opposes DHV.

    The sad thing is that most of them have NO drive. None. And a man without drive gets no respect. Not only that. They are not saving for their old age. What will happen when they are unaffordable? They are not thinking that far ahead. I wouldn’t be surprised if “let them die” was in our future. It will be an ugly time. Unless we can figure out how to keep them alive and moderately well on the cheap.

    How much dead weight can a civilization carry?

    ====

    You bring up a good point. I get asked from time to time here (not directly) “if you are so good at getting women why do you stay with the LTR – it is obvious that from time to time she is a pain – why do you put up with it?”

    The answer is simple – children from broken homes don’t do as well as those from intact homes. I decided to start a family. It is my responsibility to keep it intact.

  69. @Simon, I think that’s the philosophical issue though, can a guy be MGTOW and be motivated and driven towards his own interests?

    I’m not sure it’s fair to characterizer MGTOW men as being uniquely ‘unmotivated’. I know that’s the straw man Forney would like to paint them as, but from a MGTOW principle, isn’t going your own way part of the mentality of being prepared to walk on a woman? What about rejecting the Blue Pill paradigm and recreating yourself in a Red Pill paradigm?

  70. ” What about rejecting the Blue Pill paradigm and recreating yourself in a Red Pill paradigm?”

    In a red pill paradigm the very concept of ambition changes. From a blue pill model of ambition some very ambitious men indeed can appear to be without it, but Burt Munro was anything but unambitious.

    Nobody races motorcycles, base jumps or sails solo around the world without ambition. None of them are shirking danger (or play) while doing so. In fact, one of the reasons they may appear not to save for the future is because they expect the future to kill them and to die alone.

    The majority of saving in a blue pill paradigm isn’t done for your own maintenance, it is done for the maintenance of others.

  71. @Forge the Sky
    “Those who feel so weak they can’t imagine having sexual power over a grown women pursue pedophilia/cartoon porn.”
    Please don’t equate an art form with child abuse. Cartoon erotica existed since the beginning of animation, many normal manly men fapped to Betty Boop and Red Hot Riding Hood, but American censorship killed it that time. If it didn’t, cartoon porn would be as native to America as to Japan, and no one would think it’s for weirdos. People are freaked out by what they aren’t used to. And most female characters on porn art sites like Rule34 have grown bodies with big boobs anyway, definitely not for paedos.

  72. What is MGTOW anyway?

    Forney goes to a rather marginal, defunct blog which hasn’t been updated in years and was written by someone who has pretty much passed into oblivion, chooses a post from 2001 which hasn’t even been commented on, links to it, and declares it to be the proper definition of MGTOW everyone should abide by. Am I really supposed to take that seriously?

    The simple fact is that nobody controls the definition. There was no Congress of the All-Union Men’s Party for GTOW which elected a Political Committee, which then passed a resolution on a proper definition. Nobody owns that label. Anybody can claim it or disown it at will, and it makes no difference. “MGTOW” has largely become a faceless, comical bogeyman that various people such as Roosh and others can conveniently blame social problems on.

    What we do know, based on ample evidence and commented on widely by various media figures, is that a growing number of single men are abandoning social roles that are traditionally considered masculine. That includes pursuing women, buying a house, dedicating yourself to a demanding career, owning a car, getting into bar fights etc. It’s also well-known that average testosterone levels and sperm counts are dropping.

    Those that are aware of this trend don’t agree on its causes, but they do agree that men should man up and do something about it, and if they don’t, they’re shitbags. Since this trend shows no signs of abating, such complaints are growing more shrill. The apparent social consensus is that men should be shamed and coerced into manning up, even if returns are diminishing.

    “MGTOW” as we know it is nothing but a manifestation of this trend in the eyes of the mainstream. It’s a scapegoat, pure and simple, and complaints about it are yet another expression of society’s underlying anxiety about its own future.

  73. ” . . . many normal manly men fapped to Betty Boop and Red Hot Riding Hood, but American censorship killed it that time. ”

    The FI at work. It goes hand in hand with the raising of the age of consent, to put the most desirable women beyond the legal reach of men.

    Note that paedophilia is in the process of being redefined as any age difference some woman doesn’t approve of and never mind the fact that this naturally and inevitably brands strong, independent career women as having no more brains or agency than a prepubescent child.

  74. I think the “Let Them Die” “solution” to “too many betas/average men” would have taken place 10,000 years ago if it was an easy, obvious answer. I also think it plays into FI/feminine frame too much.

    Human society is full of countervailing tensions. One force may be in ascendancy or decline at a particular time, but there is always a correction. As a species we are likely more robust because of this.

    Right now, a number of political forces are pushing us towards one-world natural state. One-world natural state is sub-optimal when contrasted with corrections that men can make. Christianity, for example, explicitly rejects one-world natural state.

    On the Dalrock board, I think Novaseeker put forth that the average, beta man cannot succeed without societal support or subsidy. So when that support is removed, society evolves or devolves to the “cherished for” female hypergamy and alpha dominance. This is assuming that the betas sit quietly by and don’t gang up on the alphas to obtain some access to women.

    But if society discourages beta tactics, you get one of two things. You can get a cad dominant society. In this case most of the cads are going to be proles with no resources who are running low level game. Yes, enough women will be stupid enough to fall for this sort of game. So you’ve got most all of the men in the know, but society is unproductive because everyone’s running cons.

    The other way is for a large number of men to drop out and stop trying. I don’t think enough men can master high level game. I don’t think it will scale. Offering high level game as a solution to the sexual dynamic is something of a pyramid scheme. High level game still plays into FI, and the women would probably just up the ante anyway. So most men would be shut out anyway.

    Now I suppose when betas are dominant, the assortative pair bonding can be ascendant and a staid, unmoving society results. Which has happened. Like I said, countervailing tensions.

    So while I would agree that hypergamy and alpha are “natural state”, I think they are suboptimal for humans. Too much unused male capacity. Eventually someone comes up with a way to use the excess male capacity, and hypergamy and alpha gets tamped down again.

    (PS – Usually on these boards I think “alpha” is social alpha. Whoever does the mating dance the best. Not masculine alpha, a leader of men, or violent alpha, a strong brute. Social alpha is ascendant right now, but that won’t last either.)

  75. Really, what’s Roosh been doing for the past decade if not going his own way?

    Not really. He apparently believes it’s a way that is the one proper way. The people he’s complaining about are mostly the West’s equivalent of Japanese herbivores.

  76. @kfg
    “The majority of saving in a blue pill paradigm isn’t done for your own maintenance, it is done for the maintenance of others.”
    Yes and that is why I think altrisum is very more Bluepill than Redpill
    http://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001ANUQPA/ref=mp_s_a_1_sc_2?qid=1435084706&sr=8-2-spell&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=explores+of+tge+infinite
    Most people who use nature as a connection to the most profound Redpill truths are willingly open to death. It’s a process that only reenforces the importance of self care and self exploration.

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