Changing Your Programming

tilting_at_windmills

Changing Your Programming

I mentioned in the first book that I am not a motivational speaker.

I’m not anyone’s savior and I would rather men be their own self-sustaining solutions to becoming the men they want and need to be – not a Rollo Tomassi success story, but their own success stories.

That said, let me also add that I would not be writing what I do if I thought that biological determinism, circumstance and social conditioning were insurmountable factors in any Man’s life. Men can accomplish great things through acts of will and determination. God willing, they can be masters of those circumstances and most importantly masters of themselves.

With a healthy understanding, respect and awareness of what influences his own condition, a Man can overcome and thrive within the context of them – but he must first be aware of, and accepting of, the conditions in which he operates and maneuvers.

You may not be able to control the actions of others, you may not be able to account for women’s Hypergamy, but you can be prepared for them, you can protect yourself from the consequences of them and you can be ready to make educated decisions of your own based upon that knowledge.

You can unplug.

You can change your programming, and you can live a better life no matter your demographic, age, past regrets or present circumstances.

These are the last words from The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine. I wrote something similar in the first book too, but I’m quoting them here because they are just as important now as they were when I was writing them then. I’m not now nor have I ever been interested in creating a cult of Rollo. I’m not interested in creating better men, I’m interested in those men making themselves better men.

Descriptions and Prescriptions

You’ll have to forgive me, I wrote this part about a year ago, but I think it’s still relevant now. In part 4 of Preventative Medicine a commenter (who, for the record is not an InCel by any stretch) asked me why I had no real prescriptive plan for men to follow with regards to ‘preventing’ or avoiding the bad decisions associated with the time line I laid out in that series. This was my response:

Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it, but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts.

From my earliest posts at SoSuave (in 2004) I’ve had men ask me for some ‘medicine’ for their condition; some personalized plan that will work for them. This sentiment is exactly what makes PUA and manosphere ‘self-help’ speakers sell DVDs and seats at seminars. They claim to have the cure. I say that’s bullshit.

I’m not in the business of cures, I’m in the business of diagnoses. Imagine a PUA guru attempting to force fit their plans to accommodate that 60 year old man’s situation. Athol Kay makes attempts to remedy married men’s (non) sex lives, but what’s his real success rate? Is it even measurable? Even Athol recognizes that his MMSL outline is just a map, a diagnosis, that men have to modify for themselves per their individual experience and demographic. You see, your cure, your plan of action isn’t what another man’s will be, or your future son’s, or anyone else reading my work. I can give you a map, but you still have to make your own trail. I’m not a savior, you are your savior

Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.

What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads a man to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for his better understanding and he creates his own success with it?

Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.

Most men already suspect they know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they actually have the keys.

My approach to Game is defined in much broader terms than simply ‘how to get girls’, and I think for the better part of the manosphere the understanding of Game has evolved beyond rote memorization of scripts and plans. It’s gotten to a stage where even the most enthusiastic proponents of PUA techniques acknowledge a need for an individualized approach to relating and interacting with women based on a broader applied understanding of feminine psychology, sociology and the particular conditions that apply to themselves as well as the women they’re interacting with.

It’s been noted before, my approach to Game / Red Pill awareness is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I’m humbled by the men who email me and let me know how something I’ve written or shined a light on for them has saved them from suicide or some particular hell they would’ve endured longer in. For the most part though I get email and comments from men who tell me that they have built better lives for themselves because a Red Pill awareness made their situations more intelligible. I don’t sell a program or a prescription because each man’s circumstance is different, his acculturation is different, his ethnicity, society, upbringing, body composition and mental faculties are all different.

But we are all men. If the Red Pill is anything it’s a consortium of men who relate their individual experiences about women, about themselves and about their circumstances in what’s now become a feminine-primary social order. As I’ve stated in the past, I’m humbled and flattered to be considered one of the pillars of Red Pill awareness, but most of what I write is the result of piecing together the related experiences of other men.

I didn’t create the Red Pill, I just describe that awareness in terms I think are intelligible. I connect dots, but much of those dots are presented to me by a collective of men who’ve had common experiences. If those dots don’t follow, if those dots would be better connected in another way, I expect the Men who make up Red Pill awareness to offer their new ideas in an open exchange, in a marketplace of ideas.

Sometimes that marketplace gets weighed down with disingenuous critics, trolls and attention seekers, but this is the price, I believe, is necessary to distill and test the strength of those ideas. Only in a crucible of open debate where all are encouraged to participate can those ideas be sussed out.

Men with questions don’t frighten me; men with no questions do.

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

From Nursing Power:

A handful of my male readers often ask why I don’t moderate comments, or that the message of Rational Male would be better served if I banned certain commenters. I’ve mentioned on several posts and threads as to why I won’t ever do that (except for blatant spamming), but in a nutshell it’s my fundamental belief that the validity of any premise or idea should be able to withstand public debate. People who aren’t confident of the strength of their assertions or ideas, or are more concerned with profiting from the branding of those weak assertions than they are in truth, are the first to cry about the harshness of their critics and kill all dissent as well as all discourse about those assertions.

That’s the primary reason I’ve never moderated; if people think I’m full of shit I’m all ears – I’m not so arrogant as to think I’ve thought of every angle about any idea I express here or on any other forum. However, the second reason I don’t censor, ban users or delete comments is that I believe it’s useful to have critics (usually women or fem-men) provide the gallery with examples of exactly the mentality or dynamic I’m describing in an essay. With a fair amount of predictability, a blue pill male or an upset woman will just as often prove my point for me and serve as a model for what I’ve described.

I never intentionally try to make rubes out of the critics I know will chime in about something, but I will sometimes leave out certain considerations I may have already thought about something, knowing it will get picked up on by a critic. I do this on occasion because the I know that the “ah hah! I got him, he forgot about X,Y, Z” moment serves as a better teaching tool and confirms for me that a critic does in fact comprehend what I’m going on about.

Last week Roosh came out against the various tribes of Game such as it is. While I understand his intent I must disagree with his methods. A couple of weeks ago I got into a bit of political discourse with regard to how the Feminine Imperative and how Hypergamy influences social dynamics. That post generated a lot of conversation, but from it I made this statement:

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

As most of my readers know I have a great deal of respect for Roosh and I still do. Nothng is going to change that. I think time will tell what direction his push for Neomasculine philosophy truly goes in. As far as what he’s describing in that “new” doctrine there’s not much I disagree with. I’ll take issue with his anti-evolution, anti-evo psych stance. I’ll take issue with his want for some as yet undefined moralism; and not because I don’t think morality or reverence to a higher power shouldn’t be part of it, but rather because it pollutes and distorts open discourse.

I’m not an atheist, anyone who’s read my commentary on Dalrock’s site knows this. That said I don’t think there is a substitute for critical inquiry, and when that is stifled, that’s when we lean over into dogma.

From Moral to the Manosphere:

Putting angel’s or devil’s wings on observations hinders real understanding.

I say that not because I don’t think morality is important in the human experience, but because our interpretations of morality and justice are substantially influenced by the animalistic sides of our natures, and often more than we’re willing to admit to ourselves. Disassociating one’s self from an emotional reaction is difficult enough, but adding layers of moralism to an issue only convolutes a better grasp of breaking it down into its constituent parts. That said, I also understand that emotion and, by degree, a sense of moralism is also characteristic of the human experience, so there needs to be an accounting of this into interpretations of issues that are as complex as the ones debated in the manosphere.

Although I’m aware that observing a process will change it, it’s my practice  not to draw moralistic conclusions in any analysis I make because it adds bias where none is necessary. The problem is that what I (and others in the manosphere) propose is so raw it offends ego-invested sensibilities in people. Offense is really not my intent, but often enough it’s the expected result of dissecting cherished beliefs that seem to contribute to the well being of an individual.

There was a time I sat in a behavioral psychology class back in college. Behaviorism appealed to me because it was very nuts & bolts, not at all like the touchy-feely humanist schools of psychology. Behavior is the only reliable proof of motive. It was cause and effect, modify variables, and watch for behavior.

At one point I began to see that women are masters of operant conditioning – they had the natural reward 99% of men want, sex. Men’s behavior could be modified just by the prospect of sex, and they could also be influenced by negative reinforcement and punishment. It was one thing to make these observation, but quite another to express them in the classroom. Many of the more intelligent minds I dealt with then would adamantly refuse to recognize the truths that operant conditioning played. After I thought about it I understood that they were likewise motivated to deny what I thought was right in front of their faces.

I had connected some uncomfortable dots; dots that had the potential of making a man less desirable for having connected them. This was really the beginning of many more uncomfortable connections I would make later.

Roosh has tried to make a case that the Red Pill community (subred) has now reached critical mass. He sees it as inbred; a community of complainers – and in some instances I can understand that. Debate can often sound like complaining. However, what I get from Roosh now is a need for answers, it seems to me he’s looking for a plan of action. He wants something prescriptive for himself and other men to follow on with. I get it.

He’s still included Red Pill truths as being an important part of his new doctrine and I’d respect him for that, if not for the wholesale disownment of the consortium that’s been the testbed for those truths for so long. As I stated above, I think Neomasculinity may have some merit, I don’t disagree with about 90% of the manifesto Roosh went to great effort to put together. What I disagree with is how he’s initiated all of this. He does no favors to himself with casual dismissals of principles he knows are deeper than he wants to give credit to – in fact most are principles he influenced personally.

As for my part, I’m going to keep doing what I do and that’s making men aware of the world that’s been pulled over their eyes. I will likely have some strong disagreement with Roosh in the future, but as I’m fond of saying unplugging men from the matrix is dirty work. We’re both in the same family, and sometimes brothers will fight, and that’s OK.

I disagree with him that the Red Pill will cease to go on. It may be called something else, but it’s been around before he or I started writing about it. The “Red Pill”, like many other terms, is an abstraction; a place holder for an idea. Don’t like the Matrix movie references? Fine, but the truth is the truth and freely expressed ideas need words to describe them.

Maybe Neomasculinity is the prescription you need, but from what I can gather so far it’s a movement based on exclusion; not inclusion, not on a free exchange of ideas. Maybe the christianized Red Pill of Donalgraeme or Dalrock is a better prescription for you. Maybe you need the inspiration of a guy like Victor Pride and a better outlook on your physique.

Or maybe all you need is a truth and an awareness to help you lift yourself up. Yes, Red Pill awareness can be very depressing in the beginning, I’ve written several posts and book chapters dedicated to helping men come to terms with that, but ultimately it will be that awareness that becomes the catalyst for changing his life.

The Red Pill isn’t one size fits all, you have to tailor your own life with what it shows you.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Vulpine
Vulpine
6 years ago

Sun, I was going to get all “fine, it’s not a 5.5″ floppy, I’ll just polarize the coating on your computer’s hard-drive through the wall… but you keep it in a faraday cage.” on you. After all, the counter-straw-man-straw-man you quoted was addressing electrons, not ferrous materials, and the point was a continuation of the fallibility point… But, I found your marginalizing far more interesting. Luddite, the way you applied it, is using newspeak. Quite actually, and quite ironically, the inverse is more appropriate, based on what the original Luddites were about. I’d much rather discuss the bastardization of language… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Vulpine

You continue to talk from your ass. Seriously, quit while you’re way behind.

M Simon
6 years ago

rugby11ljh
June 2nd, 2015 at 2:59 pm

Engineers don’t generally discover stuff. Their job is to make use of discoveries. And that is the final proof of the truth of the discovery. You can use it.

M Simon
6 years ago

rugby11ljh
June 2nd, 2015 at 2:59 pm

You know the words but they don’t make coherent sentences. That says you don’t know the language. You sound like “automobile house stoplight bridge hole in the road.” All perfectly good words. Incoherently strung together.

You should take Sun Wukong’s June 2nd, 2015 at 3:53 pm advice.

M Simon
6 years ago

M Simon
June 2nd, 2015 at 4:01 pm

was meant for:

Vulpine
June 2nd, 2015 at 3:51 pm

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

Have you guys noticed when these female commenters engage us the discourse looses all rational and becomes very illogical and highly emotional involving words like “rage”, “hate”, “insecurity”, etc? The entire exchange morphs into highly “soapoperatic” and meaningless nonproductive interactions.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@Charlotte Allen “Mmm, I’m bored, too. And my attention is now riveted by the Caitlyn Jenner story” This comment tells you everything there is to know about CA. This is a prime example. CA, like all females has an insatiable appetite for meaningless frivolous crappy nonsense. Jenner isn’t nearly as “news worthy” as the FI controlled media wants everyone to think. CA and millions of low IQ lemmings like her is what supports and promotes the crap. Who really gives a rats ass about it and who’s lives are really being affected? What is being accomplished? Noting but totally ridiculous… Read more »

Jack LeBear
Jack LeBear
6 years ago

insanitybytes22

June 2nd, 2015 at 8:37 am

“… Just call me girl-pinata. …”

We are still waiting for the goodies to fall out.

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

After reading back through this absurdly long comment thread, it seems clear as a pane of glass to me that the She-Trolls who’ve been circling like starving buzzards are exclusively comprised of bereft post-sexual-market crones, saddled with beta husbands whom they’ve detested for decades, but cannot and will not publicly admit to it (“my husband’s a super-alpha!®”). They come here for the ONLY alpha attention that they can muster in this big, unfair world (even though it’s harshly negative attention lol hmmm…go figure). New Motto: “The Rational Male: proudly giving ‘alpha mercy’ hamster rubs to frustrated grannies since 2011.” And… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ Not Born This Morning

Ah, but CA (target#2) has an important education and credentials, and she’s on the radio talking about Bruce’s problems. She has status! And nothing trumps status! Because she has status! everything she says and feels is therefore important and worthy of consideration if not outright acceptance and agreement. She must be a serious mind and intellect and therefore who better to tell us how small our penises are, how dank the basements we dwell in and how unjustified our emotions.

Seraph
Seraph
6 years ago

Ah, but CA (target#2) has an important education and credentials, and she’s on the radio talking about Bruce’s problems.

Until proven beyond a doubt that the person posting here is really Charlotte Allen, don’t assume it is. Her/his/its behavior in this thread highly suggests he/she/it is a trolling fraud. Abetting in its deception will just give the Troll some cheap thrills.

‘She’ can easily prove it who ‘she’ is.

Let ‘her’ do so.

Vulpine
Vulpine
6 years ago

Yeah, I deleted the bulk of the previous post and tried to paraphrase, for brevity, instead. I figured you guys were probably pissy about referencing IT shop-talk tendencies as “tech-dork”. Now, bitcoin is so magically awesome that electro-magnetism can’t erase hard-drives of bitcoin proponents because that’s just word-salad. And, luddites are just against technology for any reason, regardless of more efficient and wage-slavery-avoiding technologies, independent of whether they have, want, or need a job or not. When it gets to this point, it’s time to make things real again. Good afternoon, gents. No hard feelings, I just don’t care to… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Woe be to you Seraph. Tread lightly comrade, questioning the credentials and status! of your betters is just not nice, among other things. You might be a hater of the small dicked variety. How can you doubt Target#2 is real? She’s on the radio! She’s talking about the most pressing issue of the day: dickless Republicans. I just wish my penis were larger, and hate smaller so I could discourse about MTF trans politics. Oh how I long, often crying myself to sleep, to talk about weighty issues with important people on the radio. I guess we could discuss such… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Vulpine No. Kind of impossible to offend me when I didn’t read the vast majority of your post. I read enough to realize you didn’t understand the part I had contradicted you on and very lightly skimmed the rest; it was just your typical indictment of anyone not roughing it out in the woods as an attempt to set up a straw man I had no desire to even look at, much less deal with. I can’t really be offended when I just don’t give a fuck what you have to say outside of what I felt interested in responding… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@bp

So important and yet a topic that will never gain traction in hive of scum and villainy such as this.

And violence. Don’t forget violence.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“And violence. Don’t forget violence.”

My shame only grows, must be a lack of status! or a degree from a fancy university.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi
Oh and droid, next time you want to run your motherhood schtick try it here first fraud.

You’ve become coke binge, push a stripper out the window enraged because I brought up the motherhood instinct.

Bro, your style is weak.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@bp

must be a lack of status! or a degree from a fancy university.

Don’t I know it. Woe is us. Are us? Shit I have no idea. If only I had a fancy degree to tell me which is right.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“…motherhood trolling is is 3 weeks old…”

They grow up so fast hardly any time to just enjoy them.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Please do, I love to see my writing.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

If I didn’t point out that your AF/BB hypothesis was wrong sooner or later somebody else would have. That’s what you’re missing.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

BTW I might be wrong on this but I’m fairly sure that the Motherhood instinct started in this thread or the last. I’m pretty sure it’s all contained in this thread.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

I don’t think droid’s trolling, honestly. I’m pretty sure he believes what he’s saying, but I’m also pretty much convinced he’s wrong.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong

I don’t think droid’s trolling, honestly. I’m pretty sure he believes what he’s saying, but I’m also pretty much convinced he’s wrong.

That’s the normal, healthy reaction we all expect when there is a disagreement.

@ Rollo
All of my original posts to you were deferential and polite. Post after post of polite.

Jeremy
6 years ago

@zdr01dz

If I didn’t point out that your AF/BB hypothesis was wrong sooner or later somebody else would have. That’s what you’re missing.

LOL

I’m now willing to wait for the next post by Rollo to deal with this.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@badpainter – “Ah, but CA (target#2) has an important education and credentials, and she’s on the radio talking about Bruce’s problems. She has status! And nothing trumps status! Because she has status! everything she says and feels is therefore important and worthy of consideration if not outright acceptance and agreement. She must be a serious mind and intellect and therefore who better to tell us how small our penises are, how dank the basements we dwell in and how unjustified our emotions.” All true but she concerns me no more than the fact that she is exemplary of the typical… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

I have a feeling arguing with droid on a serious level will have to begin with an argument over burden of proof. Unfortunately, I don’t think that part will be entertaining :/

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Jeremy
LOL, I’m now willing to wait for the next post by Rollo to deal with this.

AF/BB was not meant to describe the sum total of female mating behavior. It perfectly describes a very, specific type of woman that rides the CC through her 20s and early 30s, hits the wall and settles for a BB. Maybe a little cheating and divorce rape later on.

That’s who AF/BB describes. And in that regard it hits it out of the park.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

Let droid live in his (her or its) fantasy. It is what he (she or it) prefers.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Let me just say in no uncertain terms I’m a free agent. I ream RM, CH and sometimes Dalrock.

If Susan Walsh wrote that then she read what I wrote on Dalrock.

In fact I think I can prove it! I’ll go check the dates on my Dalrock post.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

That was meant to say READ, not ream.

I read RM, Ch and Dalrock. I never post on CH, maybe a couple ever on Dalrock. I post almost exclusively on RM.

That chick copied me and I’m going to go find the post and the date. It’s my writing.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@zdr01dz AF/BB was not meant to describe the sum total of female mating behavior. It perfectly describes a very, specific type of woman that rides the CC through her 20s and early 30s, hits the wall and settles for a BB. Maybe a little cheating and divorce rape later on. That’s who AF/BB describes. And in that regard it hits it out of the park. No. The married chick I hooked up with was not “that type” at all. Ever. She, like most every “not that type” chick quite honestly never thought herself that type. She never rode the CC.… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

@zdr01dz AF/BB was not meant to describe the sum total of female mating behavior. So now you’re attempting to divine the intent of all red pill writers? That’s an even taller order than proving motherhood is an instinct. Back off the high-level-of-proof-claims man, before it’s too late. It perfectly describes a very, specific type of woman that rides the CC through her 20s and early 30s, hits the wall and settles for a BB. Wrong. It describes competing motivations in any woman’s search for sexual optimum, that’s all. Women need two things, security and genetic potential. Those two things are… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Here is my post on Roosh (one of my very few). It’s from 8 days ago.

Women offer value that is easy to objectively demonstrate

I was posting this stuff in your thread and you told me to post it to Roosh. I did what you told me and then wrote you that I posted it. It’s all in the comments section on RM somewhere. Evidently she read it and took it! Holy shit!

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

Upon re-reading Susan Walsh’s post she definitely twisted what I said and pumped in some feminist thinking.

I’m just saying women want kids. She’s injecting politics.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

The whole motherhood thing strikes me as angles dancing on a pin head type debate. The nature of AF is the root of the motherhood thing as selection for sperm, while the BB is the selection for resources. How in anyway does this idea prove AF/BB wrong? How does it make a bit of difference to any individual man? How is this relevant other than as another proof of support for AF/BB? How does this affect and effect the trans community? What does Target#2 feel about this? When is she going to discuss it on the radio? Can I gain… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

I’m just saying women want kids.

That’s just pure straw-man, easy to knock over and appear to make a point. Of course women want kids. Men want kids too (generally). Anything with DNA will, by definition, have a reproductive instinct. If it didn’t, it wouldn’t exist. Saying that doesn’t prove anything w.r.t. the instincts of an animal.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong

N=1.

Plus I’m not saying women cheat. They certainly do. Most don’t.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

Take this from someone who wasn’t born this morning. All the female posters here can be separated into two categories. I have read this blog regularly and noticed female posters trend into two categories. Most of them vacillate between the two categories at least to a small degree but are primarily entrenched in one category more than the other. Category 1. Repulsive angry hussy hard up usually obese bitter ugly bitch who never has, isn’t and never ever will get alpha fucked and she knows it. These type just out and out hate all men because they cannot attract the… Read more »

Charlotte Allen
6 years ago

@Not Born This Morning

“Repulsive angry hussy hard up usually obese bitter ugly bitch who never has, isn’t and never ever will get alpha fucked and she knows it. These type just out and out hate all men because they cannot attract the men they want and will die bitter and completely unsatisfied.”

All this from observing that you guys are…angry all the time.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@zdr01dz N=1. That. Proves. Nothing. You keep thinking it does but it doesn’t. Let me spell it out for you: that was her N before she met me. That’s what you’re failing to get through your head. She hit mid-30s and decided to try for AF because BB was boring and she felt she’d “missed out” by being married in her 20s. You’re trying to act like there’s nothing in AF/BB to describe what happened, but it describes it perfectly. She’s typical. She’s the average woman with an N of 1. They certainly do. Most don’t. You’re ALMOST there, what… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@zdr01dz

I can assure you of one thing. You are NOT AF.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Badpainter Here is what the man-o-sphere misses and I’ll break it down into it’s simplest form. Men want to shoot sperm into women. I’m a dad and obviously life is more complicated than that but as far as evolution is concerned that’s our basic strategy. Vs. Women have breasts that produce milk. They care for children. That’s their basic biological strategy. Getting sperm is effortless and takes nothing more than a glance in the right direction. A woman’s evolutionary job is to raise children, not have a boyfriend. Men come a distant second to children. Thinking women are focused… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Furthermore motherhood dramatically modifies the AF/BB part of their strategy. No, the trappings of motherhood modify it. External forces modify it. Not her internal drivers. For reasons such as: societal attitudes against cheating discouraging guys from offering her the opportunity, her declining looks as she ages, the fact that she and her husband live in a house in the very unconnected burbs instead of downtown where all the singles live, for the fact that she’s too busy to even run in to guys, for the fact that a baby stroller is the best way to turn a single guy off…… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

“All this from observing that you guys are…angry all the time”

This is what you resort to as you try to make your condition more bearable for yourself.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“A woman’s evolutionary job is to raise children, not have a boyfriend.”

Wrong: A woman’s evolutionary job is to gestate and birth children. They only need to be raised to the age of minimal self sufficiency, about 5 years, and only need to live long enough to reproduce, 13-18 years.

Again this whole argument makes no practical difference in the real world.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong Most women don’t get the chance to swing hypergamously in their 30s when they’re inclined to do so because they don’t have the opportunities for one reason or another. Given a chance described by what hypergamy wants, they will. Regardless of the damage to children they currently have. Here is the deeper story. 100% of women can cheat by simply making eye contact with men. Every single fat, 40 year old mother can cheat if she wants to. There is no limit to the amount of NSA sex she can get every night of the week. And… Read more »

Novaseeker
6 years ago

Getting any old sperm is effortless, yes, getting alpha sperm not completely so. There’s competitiveness among women for access to that sperm — and that’s obvious to anyone with open eyes. Look, AF and BB are what enable motherhood to begin with. A woman can’t get to optimized motherhood without very good genes and resources. And so women look to optimize both of those elements to optimize motherhood. It really isn’t complex. The problem is sourcing both optimally in one man is hard — it’s close to winning the lottery for a woman. So they either compromise or, more commonly,… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“This is what you resort to as you try to make your condition more bearable for yourself.”

Well she was on the radio, and has status! so clearly we’re angry.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

Functional hypotheses for concealed ovulation include the promotion of paternal care (Strassmann 1981) or paternity confusion (Hrdy 1979) and argue that concealment enables women to engage in extrapair copulations with males of high genetic quality while retaining paternal investment of a primary bonded partner, and that this is especially likely to occur if the latter is of relatively low genetic quality

I’m in 100% agreement that strategy exists. But it’s the “let’s go for 2 points instead of the extra point” strategy.

Most women kick it through the uprights for 1 point. Some guy for 2.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

Charlotte –

You are uncomfortable with your condition and my accurate description of you but your condition and my observation of you doesn’t automatically make me angry. You can distort an interpretation of my description of you by attempting to conflate it with anger. Your distortion may make you feel better by self delusion, but you cannot change reality.

Novaseeker
6 years ago

Concealed ovulation is a strong indicator of an adaptation meant to accommodate Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. That simple bio-chemical truth means it’s AF/BB before and after a woman becomes a mother. Exactly, Rollo. Humans are rare in having a concealed estrus. Almost certainly this is a adaptation to favor the sex which features it — the human female. In this case, it permits the dual strategy, by encouraging the woman to be attracted to superior genetic men for sex during estrus, while concealing the fact that she is in estrus from her investment/bond partner who has worse genes, relatively… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

“Well she was on the radio”

She and thousands of other crack pots.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“She gets her AF and her BB, and the BB is none the wiser. It’s actually an elegant adaptation.”

In the abstract yes. For the individual BB not so much.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

I think this is the disconnect.

One person correctly points out that gravity is a force in the universe. And he’s right.

Another guy points out that electromagnetism is also a force in the universe. He doesn’t disagree that gravity also exists.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

Human estrus is more obvious to some males than others….

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@zdr01dz

One person rationally observes and accurately describes behavior.

Another guy clings to mommy fantasies and uses any far flung useless analogy he can to support his personal claim to that fantasy.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

If just about every woman can sleep with a movie star, race car driver, politician etc. why don’t they? Because AF/BB isn’t their focus. No, it’s because they can’t. They’re not hot enough, or live too far away, or they’re too old, or they just never have the opportunity, or a million other reasons it never happens. They all want better. They can’t all have it. You’re really burying your head in the sand here if you think your wife has never once looked at a much hotter, richer guy than you and said “If only…” but then realized thing… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

To put it this way: parenthood might be the overarching meta-goal of intersexual relations to human beings as a species, but hypergamy is the actual motivator for the woman, and children are merely a consequence of it. If a woman had no knowledge of where children came from, she’d still feel hypergamous urges. To the individual woman, hypergamy is the force to drive becoming a mother. Not the other way ’round.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Sun Wukong

@Not Born this Morning “Members of category 2 will likely maintain their condition due to personal fears rather than absolute lack of opportunity.” Huge amount of stress and attack growing up from this. “but you cannot change reality.” Everyday I am reminded of my own faults and slowly changing. Not angry just slowly realizing I “lived” in a world that wanted me dead. A world where I was told I didn’t matter a world I tried to save as a child that wasn’t interested in being saved. I am a weird human being. “Human estrus is more obvious to some… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“If a woman had no knowledge of where children came from . . .”

There are animals that have thousands of children, and never even know it.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

“Motherhood instinct” my ass.
Women have kids because they make more money out of them+to have them look after her.

Let say a woman have kids with ugly/wealthy man then she meets a handsome wealthy guy, she divorces ugly/wealthy, she takes the kids and she marry good looking/wealthy and have more kids.

I met that woman in real live last week.
Loves kids my ass.

stuttie
6 years ago

one of my plates that is absolutely obsessed with me, has a 4 y/o kid.

I give her one night a week with me (at the most).

she overtly expressed her desire to see me 6 nights a week and her kid just 1 night a week.

I think she was only half joking.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Ps
That woman I met briefly through a gay real state who told me her story and I started to explain to him about AF/BB and he was very interested to know about the manosphere.

Why is gay men are more able to recognize the truth about women?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Why is gay men are more able to recognize the truth about women?”

They have no investment in not recognizing it.

stuttie
6 years ago

a glistening pussy can’t blind them from the truth

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

A great great great movie to watch

The Idol 1966. Jennifer Jones.

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

@rugby

Just google the greyhound rescue(s) in your state. My state has six that I know of. I’ve donated to Rollo’s linked GH rescue in FL and I’ve donated to four in my own home state on behalf of TRM.

Seraph
Seraph
6 years ago

@’Charlotte’, “All this from observing that you guys are…angry all the time.” Well, not ALL the time…we do take time out to laugh at you. @Droidz Every single fat, 40 year old mother can cheat if she wants to. There is no limit to the amount of NSA sex she can get every night of the week. And she can get it from men quite high on the food chain. Alphas. Ah… huh… And in your world, do the rivers run with chocolate, and does it rain diamonds and is the Shire still green, Mr. Frodo? There are plenty of… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Seraph

@Mr T
Will look up the idol
“Why is gay men are more able to recognize the truth about women?”
@KFG and stuttie
They are both really spot on.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ilg6JzzB5T4
This comes to mind
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PWTptbb0vB4
Suppose just getting it isn’t a big deal for a gay male. So they don’t need the confusing messages.
@The Diplomat
Will do. One of my goals is getting a german sheperd. Always loved those dogs.

Seraph
Seraph
6 years ago

You know, having read through the 1,300+ posts here… Okay, I’ll admit I skimmed a bit… Anyway, reading through the rainbow of crazy on display from the Troll brigades, I thought I would post what is probably my favorite poems, not only for the way it is written, but what it has to say. Bottom line, it sums up the cycles of history where after years of progress and advancement, really, REALLY stupid ideas begin to take hold, become dominant, and then…well, frankly, shit frankly goes to hell. There is a lot of blood and death and ruin, both the… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ all Let’s boil this down to what the problem is and why it matters. From a male perspective female “companionship” is the goal. You might define that as 3 input sex or sharing mushy, love poetry. But no matter what your definition of companionship is it comes back to time spent with a woman. That’s what we want. So it makes sense in our minds that if women are our focus we must be their focus. This is mostly wrong. The main focus of an AF/BB dominated woman is men, boyfriends & cute guys at the SuperTarget. Children are… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Gay men are the original Redpillers. Almost all the gay men I met in the past (don’t get me wrong) told me how repulsive women’s bodies are and they all complaint about women, I even witnessed an argument between a lesbian and a gay man (both were designers), ,,what a fight it was, he threw at her the worst words in the dictionary (and so did she). The hidden dislike that gay men have towards women is so deep and hidden like the holly Grail. And yet to see them all ganging up against the angry / misogynist men is… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Seraph
If you don’t think homely women have access to unlimited quantities of sex, including Alpha sex you haven’t been paying attention.

http://i.imgur.com/P7j0rMd.jpg

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

I think a point needs clarifying here. Droidz, I’m interpreting you as saying that the ‘motherhood’ or caring instinct is a kinda perpetul background drive/desire/impulse that women have. It stays fairly constant, and takes the reigns or falls back based upon what other impulses or incentives exist. I think a lot of other commentators are interpreting it differently – to mean that, once a woman has a child, a ‘motherhood instinct’ just kicks in and takes over, becoming a force in some cases enough to override AF/BB. Hence all the citing of women acting on AF in spite of having… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi
One would think they could simply spread their legs enough and statistically one of those guys should be a ‘good guy’, right?

The price of sex for women is a glance that lasts a half second longer than normal. We’ll take it from there.

However scoring an LTR lock-down on a good man is quite an effort and an accomplishment.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

you know how to know when a man’s N count is 3or4?

A, It’s when he argues against AF/BB.

B, He was mama’s boy

C,He doesn’t have sisters.

The correct answer is:

All the above.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

@Seraph That was wonderful Check this book out http://www.amazon.com/The-Cleft-Novel-Doris-Lessing/dp/0060834870 @Droid “But no matter what your definition of companionship is it comes back to time spent with a woman. That’s what we want.” Agreed It’s what Rollo said “The problem with that is the good girl you thought would make a great mom at 29, wasthe bad girl slut fucking the hot guy in the foam cannon party on spring break at 18. They’re the same woman. You may want to think moms are the “Quality Women”, but so did this guy: http://therationalmale.com/2013/12/03/saving-the-best/” Ive seen mothers become sexual with me mergers… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

Forge, your over explaining. Zdroid isn’t getting laid because his wife is spending more parental investment into his children rather than fucking him. I’ve been there done that. My wife is scared to have sex with me when the children are in the house which is only occasionally now. Empty nest for two years. Mothers caring for offspring is not primary if the male is alpha enough to get the partner to want to do him. Motherhood instinct is an excuse for the woman who is married to not have sex. It is not subtle. If I was Zdroid I… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Forge the Sky

Droidz, I’m interpreting you as saying that the ‘motherhood’ or caring instinct is a kinda perpetul background drive/desire/impulse that women have. It stays fairly constant, and takes the reigns or falls back based upon what other impulses or incentives exist.

Exactly.
AF = acquire good genes
BB = gather resources
Motherhood = raise child

Those 3 instincts describe the female reproductive process and they are in constant operation. We see these behaviors every day.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Forge

Like how I’d feel an impulse to fuck somewhat more often if I work in an environment full of pretty nubile young women. Which I do, damn me.

Dude I am razor focused at work. I’ve not had the slightest boner there… ever. My employer only employs the brightest female engineers it can find, which means they’re all troll level ugly.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Case 1:
Charlotte Allen’s husband go out on the weekend, meets Scarlet Johanson and she asks him to go home with her, do you think he’d say no!.

Case 2:
Insanity goes out at night, runs into Brad Pitt, now do you think she asks him to fuck her before he asks her?

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ sjfrellc

Mothers caring for offspring is not primary if the male is alpha enough to get the partner to want to do him.

I see the disconnect. You don’t see the infinitesimally, small value of NSA alpha sex.

Try this experiment.
Put together a Tinder profile with some smiling photos of an SMV5 woman. Narrow your interests to high status men. Include the sentence, “looking for fun.”

Let me know how many offers you get. Each minute.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ rugby11ljh
“However scoring an LTR lock-down on a good man is quite an effort and an accomplishment.”
Could that apply to women who aren’t mothers yet as well?

Sperm is the cheapest substance in the known universe. Women almost always want the LTR lock-down. They’ll use sex to get it.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  zdr01dz

@Droid
My sperm is the most expensive thing in the universe.
“women gather resources to ensure the long term security of their investing in being a mother.”
I’ve seen women shame me for not getting them resources. I.E finish my LMT license

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

The prudence of performance will continue into her (beloved) kids and if one of the “beloved” kids fail to perform, ,well you know the rest.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Rollo

Gee, I didn’t see that one coming.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi What you’re attempting to do here is separate the “good girls” BB mothers, from the “bad girls” AF slutty carousel riders. The problem with that is the good girl you thought would make a great mom at 29, was the bad girl slut fucking the hot guy in the foam cannon party on spring break at 18. You are 100% correct. We absolutely see that behavior. But not every girl is a slut at age 18. Probably not even most. I assume you’re a good looking guy and your wife is pretty. Your writing indicates that you… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

http://i.imgur.com/gjLQIyO.jpg

I’ve read that article. It’s one of the all time great CH shivs.

Would you have sex with that chick? Of course not. But a line of guys would. Some would report back that they nailed an SMV8.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

If all women could get Alphas+ unlimited supply to resources($$$$$$) say goodbye to human race.

Jeremy
6 years ago

Jesus, this is a slaughter. I’m glad I’m in the stands for this one.

Droid, you’re down 35-0, and your first string QB just broke his hip.

You’ve got no argument, yet you’re clinging to whatever you can get your hands on. Just stop.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

I really shouldn’t read articles like that. I start seeing her words and shitty attitude across the face of every woman I approach in public. It ain’t pretty. I wind up just having a couple beers and going home. No HB6 is worth that kind of grief, but they sure think they are.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo
And my daughter and wife are equally as influenced by AFBB as every other woman with a heartbeat (both our mothers included)

Every woman has AF and BB, but it’s not the whole story. Probably not even most of it.

If your wife wanted strange AF she could go out tonight and get it. But she doesn’t. It’s not that interesting to her.

Shoes might be a different story.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong
No HB6 is worth that kind of grief, but they sure think they are.

I thought she was more like an HB3, hehe.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@zdr01dz

She is. That’s my point. If a HB6 ain’t worth it, an HB3 like her damn sure ain’t.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Sun Wukong

@Droid
“If there’s a silver lining to this it’s that this post-marriage Epiphany Phase generally happens earlier in a man’s life. If he’s made a lot of his potential up to then, and the divorce wasn’t too devastating, he’s in a far better position as far as life stage is concerned ” From Rollo

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong

Ah….. ok. haha

I’m 45 and if I had to work for sex I just couldn’t make myself do it. I’m not going to amuse a vapid, HB6 all night to score maybe 30 minutes of condom sex. Forget it. I get the MGTOW guys.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

I read all the comments, and I don’t think I’m dumb or RP ignorant, and I guess I’m still not sure I understand how this is more than an argument of degrees and precedence. Women have this impulse to fuss over adorable things that men don’t have to the same degree, yes? Example – my (young) sister respects my father more than she does anyone else. One time she got a perfume – chose it carefully – and he didn’t like it. She couldn’t wear it after that, even when he wasn’t around. It just distressed her too much. Her… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ rugby11ljh
Happily married for 20 years. Not looking for a divorce. Way bigger plans in motion than honeys.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Forge the Sky Back to my sister. If some alpha dude was in the room that she thought she had a chance with, I’m sure her attention would have been very elsewhere. It doesn’t interfere with that impulse at all, and seems to have very little impact on a girl’s overall actions. And it’s kinda irrelevant from a man’s life plan perspective. But I mean. I think it comes down to projection. We’d bang a hot chick so we assume they’d bang a hot guy. But it doesn’t work that way because they aren’t the same. We make babies.… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

You may or may not find this interesting in regards to Susan Walsh.

Several months ago when I first learned about the man-o-sphere somebody mentioned Susan Walsh on RM. I followed a link and went to an article on her site. It was something about problems with M/F relationships. In a friendly tone I wrote that part of the problem was the obesity epidemic. On the spot she booted me. One post and I was out.

So I got the boot and a few months later she became inspired by my thinking. HAHA!

Bitch.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

I finally got a bit of time and put together a quick rough edit of the first hour of recording we did for The Man Table last month. I’ve been so busy I didn’t realize how long it had been. Basically nothing’s been cut out of that since I was having to learn how to use the audio software. Just adjusted levels some, added opening music and intermission music, but haven’t done the second half yet since it’s going to be a monster to fix. (I’m really not sure if I’m even going to do it; still debating if it’s… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Dunno Droidz, human sex impulses seem to rule far more than any proposed natalist instinct. Nurturing seems to operate less as a base instinct than as a proclivity or interest even in women.

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