Navigating the SMV continues to be one of my most prolific posts. I can remember originally writing that post and plotting the graph as a one-off response to a comment (by Deti I think) made requesting a graphic representation of how both men and women’s SMV waxes and wanes as they progress through life. At the time I had no idea how influential and accurate the graph would be, but it seems that not every three or so months someone links or emails me an outside study with a graph that is so similar to my initial perception of sexual market valuation and devaluation that it kind of creeps me out a little bit.
This most recent graph comes to us courtesy of the Red Pill subreddit, linked to the Cougar and Cub Dating Study on Whatsyourprice.com.
From the chart above, we see that the perceived value of an attractive woman peaks when she reaches 25 years old, and gradually diminishes as she ages. The perceived value of an attractive man however, starts at a much lower price when he is young, peaking only when he reaches the age of 34. It appears from the value curve above that at least some stereotypes we often hear do hold some truth. For example, that female models earn the most before they turn 30. Or that men become more attractive as they age.
But no matter what some of you may read from the value curves above, it has proved a useful tool for predicting when Cougar-Cub couples get together, and when they are likely to break up. The value curves also provide clues of what types of Cougar-Cub relationships stand the best chance of surviving in the long run.
Granted, my own parameters were slightly broader in scope (female SMV peaked at 22-23, men’s 36-38) but the base premise is astonishingly similar. As you might expect the comments are rife with “well-not-in-my-case”, “people are individuals” personal anecdotes, but the grouping of the graph plot is too similar not to recognize a consistency of form with my original SMV graph:
There are other studies and graphs that reflect this basic model. Some are more forgiving and project the feminine SMV decay a bit less or starting later – rarely is men’s SMV any less rigorous – and each study has differing objectives, but the form of the curves are so alike that it’s impossible not to notice the general similarities. I’ve done several followup posts in order to address the most common (deliberate) misunderstandings, as well as the most pressing questions about my SMV graph, so while we move on to the next section of the SMV timeline this week please be sure you reference the side bar category I have set up that exclusively covers the topic if you have questions. I’m prefacing this week’s continuation of Preventative Medicine with this graph because it will be an integral element to understanding the progression through the Epiphany and Transitionary phases.
The Late Party Years
Although not a subsection itself, the latter third of a woman’s Party Years deserves some mention in that the end of this phase is often a prelude for the rationales women develop leading into the Epiphany Phase. As I mentioned here, some third party SMV studies will place a woman’s peak SMV as late as 25-26 years old. I’d argue that this is far too late in a woman’s life progression.
Statistically, most women express a desire to settle down, be married and start a family at or around the age of 27 to 30, and most marriages do happen between 26 and 30 for western women. The popularized, feminized ideal of a woman enjoying her prime – often excused as fulfilling her nebulous professional potential – is a primary contributor to this marriage postponement, but it’s important to point out to men dating women in this phase that the last two years of the party phase will be the stage at which a woman will begin to feel an urgency for long term commitment.
I summed this phase up in Cashing Out, however, it’s here that women, with the foresight to see it, will make their best attempts to consolidate on marriage with the man who best embodies, or has the potential to embody, the Alpha sexual-genetics with the providership parental investment that an optimized hypergamy seeks to balance in the same man. At no other time will a woman feel more urgency in capitalizing on her still prime attractiveness and sexual agency with a man she believes will fulfill the dual dictates of her sexual strategy.
“Where is this going?”
This is the most common phase in which a man will hear the words “where is this going?” from a woman, or is delivered ultimatums of withdrawal of intimacy (no more sex, or threats of break up) if no proposal is forthcoming in the foreseeable future.
Although women’s preferred method of communication rests in the covert, as she matures towards a condition of a lessened capacity to intra-sexually compete with her younger peers (competition anxiety) most men discover that women in this demographic, by necessity, lean more on overt communication. The coquetry, indirectness and blasé indifference that she used to hold and enjoy male attentions during her SMV peak years is progressively traded for more direct certainties of promised, committed assurances of future security.
Side note: Bear in mind that security for women isn’t always manifested as financial provisioning, but can be emotional investment, parental investment, physical security and most importantly fulfilling a masculine role of stability and dominance in her life.
Of primary importance is the consideration that women seek the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks (AFBB) balance of their hypergamous interests in the same man at this stage. That’s not to say this isn’t always the operative for feminine hypergamy, but it’s during the late party years phase that a woman (on some level of consciousness) begins to realize this time is her best opportunity to use her quick-burn SMV to consolidate on an optimized hypergamy. This isn’t due to premonitions of the Wall per se, but it is the first recognition of her diminishing capacity to sexually compete for male attention with young women experiencing their own SMV peak years.
During this period women will often make their first earnest attempts to find ways – sometimes by coercion – to ‘fix’ an Alpha into satisfying the Beta Bucks side of her hypergamy equation, or, to seriously evaluate an already committed Beta’s potential to ‘man up’ and be more Alpha, more ambitious and assesses (what she believes will be) his future SMV potential.
Lastly, bear in mind that women in this phase experience this urgency in direct proportion to what their looks, sexuality and command of male attention will afford them. It’s simple reasoning to figure that women who maintain their physical attractiveness / sexual agency and are consistently rewarded for it with male attention will prolong that state as long as possible. Thus, some attractive women may perpetuate their party years until such time as that attention abruptly ends.
The Epiphany and Transitory Phase
I’ve written extensively on these phases so please have a read of my prior posts The Epiphany Phase, Time’s Up and Cashing Out for a more in-depth understanding of what to expect from women during this stage of life.
Between the ages of 28 to about 30 (sometimes later for attractive women perpetuating their party years) women often enter into a more cognitive awareness of their personal conditions with regard to their declining SMV. This phase I call The Epiphany Phase; it is the point at which the subconscious awareness a woman has of her sexual market value in relation to her eventual date with the Wall can no longer be subconsciously repressed and ignored.
It is of primary importance to men to fully understand the significance this phase has for women. The epiphany isn’t about women hitting their SMV Wall during this phase (though it’s possible) it’s about a woman conscientiously coming to terms with a markedly lessened capacity to sexually compete with her SMV-peak peers for the same male attention she enjoyed during her party years.
The abstract exaggeration is to think a woman necessarily hits the Wall at 30, her physical attractiveness shrivels and she magically transforms into a spinster cat lady overnight. Women absolutely (with effort) can and often do retain their looks and sexual agency past this phase; some into their late 30’s and 40’s. However, what defines this phase is the conscious realization that their looks are no longer what they were in their prime. Combined with this is the awareness that they can no longer sexually compete at the same level as young women in their SMV peak for the attentions of men they now hope to consolidate their hypergamy on in long term commitment and provisioning security.
The Epiphany phase isn’t about women hitting the Wall so much as it is about an urgency to consolidate upon a man’s commitment of long term security with the competition anxiety that comes from realizing it’s now she who must to put forth the effort to secure it rather than having it offered to her as it was by the men in her SMV-peak years.
From The Epiphany Phase:
This is a precarious time for women where she makes attempts to reassess the last decade of her life. Women’s psychological rationalization engine (a.k.a. the Hamster) begins a furious effort to account for, and explain her reasonings for not having successfully secured a long term monogamous commitment from as Alpha a man as her attractiveness could attain for her. Even women married prior to this phase will go through some variation of self-doubt, or self-pity in dealing with the hypergamic uncertainty of her choice (“Is he really the best I could do?”).
A woman’s late party years are often the stage during which she entertains the hope that she can ‘civilize’ the Alpha Bad Boys who satisfy the visceral side of her hypergamy into assuming the providership role the other side of her hypergamy demands and is increasingly becoming more urgent for her – most Alpha Widows are made during this period. However, it’s during the Epiphany phase women (conveniently) make the rationalizations necessary for justifying this ‘fixing’ effort.
During the Epiphany Phase a woman’s inner and outer dialog is self-excusing, virtuously self-educational and self-congratulatory.
“I used to be so different in college, but I’ve grown personally” or “I’ve learned my lesson about pursuing the ‘wrong kind’ of men, I’m done with Bad Boys now” and “What happened to all the Nice Men?” are the standard clichés women will tell themselves and vocally (overtly) broadcast, directly or indirectly, to all the men with a providership potential in the hopes of signaling to them that she will now entertain their feminine-preconditioned offers of love, loyalty and dependability she had no interest in during her party years.
It’s during this stage that women will make radical shifts in their prioritization of what prerequisite traits qualify as ‘attractive’ in a man and attempt to turn over a new leaf by changing up their behaviors to align with this new persona they create for themselves. Since the physicality, sexual prowess and Alpha dominance that made up her former arousal cues in a Man aren’t as forthcoming from men as when she was in her sexual prime, she reprioritizes them with (presumed) preferences for more intrinsic male attributes that stress dependability, provisioning capacity, humor, intellect, and esoteric definitions of compatibility and intimacy.
For the spiritually inclined woman (which is to say most women) this may manifest in a convenient return to religious convictions she’d disregarded since her adolescence. For other’s it may be some kind of forced celibacy; a refusal to have sex under the hypergamic auspices of her ‘party years’ in the hopes that a well provisioning male (the ones not realizing their own potential SMV as yet) will appreciate her for her prudence – so unlike herself and all of the other girls who rejected him over the last decade.
The self-affirming psychological schema is one where she’s “finally doing the right thing”, when in fact she’s simply making the necessity of her long term provisioning and security a virtue she hopes men will appreciate. And if they don’t, then there’s always shaming them to think they’re ‘less-than-men’ for not living up to her eating her cake once she’s had it
While looks and masculine physical triggers in men are still an important attraction factor, her desire for a personal association with a man’s status and affluence begin to sublimate her physical priorities for attraction as she increasingly realizes the necessity of these attributes for her (and any offspring’s) long term provisioning. It should be noted that the appeal of a man’s potential for provisioning is proportional to her actual (or perceived) need for that provisioning.
As a woman moves into the Transitory phase (29-31) this re-prioritization also coincides with the adjusted self-perception of her own SMV. As a woman becomes more cognizant of her lessened ability to sexually compete for men who (she believes) would meet her best hypergamic balance, she’s forced to reassess her self-image. There are many feminine social conventions already pre-established to help her deny or buffer this reassessment. However, her hindbrain still acknowledges the competition anxiety that (unless, by effort or genetics, she’s a notable physical exception) she simply cannot command the kind of male attention women in their SMV-peak years do.
Note that the reality of this assessment, or realistic expectations of it, aren’t the source of this anxiety, but rather it’s what she believes them to be. An exceptionally attractive 30 year old woman may still be able to sexually select men above what most women her age can expect, but it’s what she believes about herself, her internalized expectations for her age and party years experience has taught her. And as you may guess this self-assessment is also subject to the influences of social media and social conventions that pander to this same Transition period anxiety.
The Transition
I believe it was Roosh who stated that the only women who complain about men needing to Man Up or how men have somehow shirked the masculine responsibilities the Feminine Imperative society expects of them are always 30 years of age or older. Younger women simply have no motive to complain about what they believe they are entitled to in a man beyond his being ‘hawt’.
What I term as the Transition phase is the culmination of the Epiphany phase’s influence on a woman who’s thus far been unable to consolidate on monogamy with a male who fulfills the role of provider (Beta provider most often) that her hypergamy now holds in much higher priority order. When women in this phase complain of men’s “adequacy issues” what they’re really bemoaning is their chronic inability to find (or merit) a man who can balance the dual influences of her hypergamy.
The urgency for this consolidation is further compounded by the misconceptions most women hold about the Myth of the Biological clock, but in biological terms she’s well past the years of her prime fertility window and conceiving and bearing children becomes progressively more difficult for women with each passing year.
In the Transition phase the competition anxiety that prompted the Epiphany phase is exchanged for an anxiety that results from confronting the possibility a woman may never consolidate on a long term security. However, as always, feminine social conventions are already in place to absolve her of any real personal accountability for this incapacity.
Thus, begins the ‘Men are threatened by powerful women’, ‘Men have fragile egos’, ‘Men are shallow and only want young chippys they can manipulate instead of vibrant, women who are their intellectual equals’ and various other canards intended to simultaneously shame men into compliance with their hypergamous imperative and relieve women of any personal accountability for the anxiety the Transition phase forces them to experience.
In closing todays post, I think it’s important to consider other outcomes of personal decisions women often do make during these periods. As I mentioned in Part I, it’s not uncommon for women to already have consolidated on monogamy (LTR or marriage) well before either of these phase take place. While the experiences may differ, the underlying influences that prompt these phases remain more or less the same. I’ll elaborate more on this in Part III as it primarily relates to the later phases of women’s maturation process.
Someone said: “which men ever GET to demand anything, much less demand better?” Any man if he chooses. I’m a firm believer that it’s every man’s birthright to have sexual choice. That Nature dictates that every man can have options. That “there’s someone out there for everybody”. I don’t mean that in the sappy sense like what you see on a Hallmark card. My belief is that everyone has multiple matches. Most men just don’t believe it. If there are women that are 5’s, there are also men that are 5’s. There are women and men who are 8’s. And… Read more »
@jf12: Makes sense from a sexual perspective, but from a social perspective you can have sexual Alphas who can’t hold relationships because they’re “socially unapproved men” (genuinely, long hair won’t stop you getting laid, but it can make-or-break a relationship with many women), or who actively reject social control, even though they could seize it if they wanted to. Personally, I’d say an Alpha has the full Alpha package, which would exclude men who refuse leadership roles or who actively alter themselves to become less desirable. Men are as they do, which is not always as nature designed them. Or,… Read more »
Softek’s comment encapsulates the whole difference. Everything comes down to the control that one has over his life. Money and status are just symptoms of that control but in and of themselves are not sufficient. There are plenty of millionaire betas (the rich guy whose wife is banging the firefighter is the definition of beta bucks).
The only problem with this theory it’s that sometimes it’s very difficult to predict the future.
Beauty always fade away, but money it’s not always going to come when you are old. You can have bad luck and go broke, or have good luck and become very rich. Sometimes your family is rich, and women know that you are going to get that money sooner or later, so you can be at the top of your SMV in your twenties…
Money will make you more marriageable but wont increase your SMV in and of itself. Marriage to a woman is not the prize because it is essentially a one-way commitment from a man to a woman. Your attitude and physical appearance are what drives SMV.
” The point is, there’s enough women out there and sexual choice for every man (hopefully he still makes good decisions and doesn’t become too reckless).” A documentary on PBS titled “After Happily Ever After”, the film maker goes through a divorce from her husband, who’s helping her make the film, during the filming of it. When she talks about why her marriage fell apart and why she always started to feel claustrophobic in her past failed relationships, she wonders why and what she can do to stop “choosing the wrong men”. Never considers anything about herself, other that she… Read more »
@superslaviswife, allow me to point you to the previous comment and “It’s only a woman’s sexual attraction to you that matters.” and ideas therein. It’s All That Matters. A woman’s opinion on how well I can serve her relationship needs is less than matterful to me; that has *negative* to do with how well SHe is going to treat ME.
“Relationship Alpha” is a woman’s fantasy. No, not even a fantasy. A totally imaginary fairy world that NOONE wants to visit, neither men nor women.
A sexual alpha with a strong frame will have the woman bending over backwards to make the “relationship work”. There are sexual alphas with weak frames and that is why a woman may lose attraction. However, assuming a strong frame, the decision to continue the relationship will always be up to the man. The only way to achieve that mindset is to live life on your terms with endless determination each and every day.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/12/frame/
Iron Rule of Tomassi #1
Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of who’s frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are.
BTW, Rollo, great job as always. This blog should be required reading for any breathing male. Is there an email at which I can reach you?
it’s on the About page, but:
rollotomassi@charter.net
@jf12: By “social Alpha” I was referring to other people in general and his role in society. A man can be incredibly sexually attractive to women, but not be an Alpha in other aspects of his life. The most obvious one to consider is his relationship with other women and the men around him, as Alphas in tribal environments tend to be primarily characterized by sexual dominance and group leadership. Relationships are just one of many examples where a sexually Alpha male can show signs of Beta-ness. He wants a relationship, but women like having sex with him and hate… Read more »
@superslaviswife, yes that’s what I’m saying: other people’s confusion does not matter because “It’s only a woman’s sexual attraction to you that matters.” That’s the ONLY thing that matters to his alphaness to her. My prime example is Bill Gates. On the eve of his first billion, in his imperious moods he would a half dozen alpha males wetting their pants, literally, in fear of his displeasure. But he couldn’t keep a female secretary because of women’s disrespect. The alphaness of a man towards other men DOES NOT MATTER, in our society, in determining whether a woman will provide bananas… Read more »
@Rolllo:
Cogent and compelling reasoning and a very persuasive argument.
I have been struck by the *frying pan of reality-checks* — especially the penultimate paragraph.
“alpha vs beta. I have an easy qualitative distinction: women are easy for alphas, women are difficult for betas.”
Finally have time to read this. Can’t wait
Outstanding set of articles Rollo, you’re on quite a roll as of late. “It’s interesting that the point where men are peaking in value (mid to late thirties, early forties) is often labeled by women as the ‘mid life crisis’ which I tend to see as a preemptive attack, hoping to demoralize men in this period and lower their self perception of value so as to either keep them (in the case of the married woman) or lock them up in a relationship (if you’re a lower SMV woman than he might get).” There was no such thing as “mid… Read more »
@Josey Wales “The temptation for any RP-aware “mid-life crisis” male to take one last go round with nubile young women at the apex of their own SMP is an almost irresistible temptation. Post-wall women instinctively know this and it must frighten the hell out of them.” Aye sir. I want to share a story, but it will make me come off as a conceited nit. Understand however that this is not my intention, I’m simply relating personal experience on your observation. I’m mid 40’s. Over the last couple of years I’ve been told, by complete strangers (women, all, under 35… Read more »
@Ghost, that’s what’s known as Soft Dread:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/13/soft-dread/
@Rollo That sounds right after reading the article. It was not done with malice or intent, before I told her I actually found it humorous and was passing along what I considered the joke. It was that stopped in headlights look right after I told her, like she was seeing me as somebody new in her life, then the rush directly to the internet (all without saying a word to me), that was bizarre to me at that moment. Very little of what I read about on the internet happens exactly as described on the internet, but this was one… Read more »
He wants a relationship, but women like having sex with him and hate dating him. That sounds like a good looking beta, not a sexual alpha in one area but beta in another. Which I doubt you’ll find that way. The women will date him because he’s nice looking, and he’s paying so everything’s free. But the sex won’t be happening. I say what you’ll find is social alpha/sexual beta. Like the super rich who’s never had to deal with women other than having a lot of money to hook them. (Miranda Kerr and billionaire boyfriend?) Anybody else see that… Read more »
It really is interesting how she’s acted since then as well. Another story for another day.
You know how when a team is on a winning streak or is ranked #1 and they loose one game or maybe loose a close one in the championship, and there’s people who just can’t wait to say “Y’all suck! Over raaateed!”?
She may be waiting for that moment.
@Water Cannon Boy. Pretend I read this sentence aloud, with the word “projected” said snidely: “‘He wants a relationship,’ projected the woman.” I’ll go on record as man knowing, long pre-redpill, that many players often dangle the relationship card on a rubber band. “I really do want a relationship, sometime, and here’s some Skittles to prove it. I’ll be back next month for more sex, but I’ve got to go now unless you want to prove your relationship worth to me by making me a sandwich, scratching my back, and of course that thing you do with your mouth.” is… Read more »
That I already knew. I don’t think you’ll find that a guy who wants a relationship, and is considered an alpha in some way, will have a women wanting sex, but not wanting to date.
@WCB, yes I agree. Women would love to lock him down, or even date him “How come we don’t ever go out to Wendy’s like normal couples? Ain’t I your best girl no more? I’ll pay. Please?”
Elspeth:
“…she, even with all her strengths is overestimating what kind of man will marry her.
Women tend to do that. A lot.”
Massively.
The definition of an alpha is a man with options. He may or may not have money. He may or may not have great looks. However, when put together, he has a life on his own terms and women want to be with him. The woman will justify away any of his objective shortcomings to love….when all she really loves is the safety of living in his frame.
@Reese I’d bet a significant amount of money that when girls say that to you, it’s mere hamster speak for them picking up on the signs of game. looks do play a part, but body language, attitude, etc. are also critical. girls just say “cute” cause it’s the only rationale their minds could come up with.
@jf12: Ah, I see what you mean now. Used to be the case (and still is, beyond the West and in some subgroups) that a man’s social status among men had massive influence on his sexual Alphaness; however, today, in the West, his sexual Alphaness is king, ja?
“a man’s social status among men had massive influence on his sexual Alphaness; however, today, in the West, his sexual Alphaness is king, ja?” When the women are equal to men in the economy, what’s left to distinguish? Feminized work places dilute the normal alpha status of the leaders of men. In the past there was status in being the shop foreman, general manager, or owner of a small business or farm. When women gain similar titles and authority those men, the small group leaders, are no longer special, or exceptional. In fact they lose status in a way since… Read more »
@superslaviswife, yes, I guess so. I’ve never had any experience in which any man’s social status among men mattered in any way to that man’s status among women. At all. Ever. Anywhere, beyond the West and subgroups included. However, I do know ridiculous number of men, moreso than women, who harbor that delusion, that a man’s status among men OUGHT to (in some handwaving manner) force women to their knees or something.
So, does any of this (all of this) help “John”? “The 25-year-old shyly reveals that he’s never had sex, never been on a date, never even kissed a woman.”
http://www.rollingstone.com/feature/millennial-sexual-revolution-relationships-marriage
What possible hope can we give him, other than “Don’t give up hope, because in another thirteen years, maybe you can get some woman who is tired of all those men.”
@Badpainter: You make a good point. Women with experience “dominating” men in the workforce (be it as a manager or just by being the HR woman who gets to fire agency crew) are far more likely to look down on other males, especially those who share traits with their “underlings” and “inferiors”. The funny thing is, often these women are doing shitty jobs, employed in a non-job, 200% more stressed than a man would be in the same situation and even trying to skew the workload (against company policy, usually) so they do less and earn more. I believe the… Read more »
re: “a man’s status among men is an indicator of his physical prowess, mental capacity and a fair measure of his current and future access to resources and power, all of which matter to a female’s need to reproduce.” Matter in the sense of correlative, not causative.
Re: status. The winningest Call Of Duty guys are heavily admired by other Call Of Duty guys. The guy with the best bbq wings is heavily admired by other guys on his block, especially during March Madness. The pimply boy with the hardest core porn stash (I know, going back a few years) was heavily admired by other pimply boys. None of this translates into status among women, hence by explicit counterexample the thesis is disproved. Status among men matter not at all to status among women UNLESS there are a lot of other factors, and it is those factors… Read more »
@jf12: Yet when women are more inhibited, as is natural in a society where men wield resources, the man’s social group, who they are and how they view him affects whether or not he’ll get a woman to settle long enough for sex. I agree there’s a major back-and-forth between the camps of male and female respect and correlation and causation are hard to define, but it seems to only be in Western society where the amount of respect a man gets from anyone (man or woman) doesn’t affect his mating prospects. A woman who needs resources and investment on… Read more »
“Normal is the new In” say a lot of women through the years. And yet players insist peacocking is the way to go, especialy for a normal-looking man. These disconnects are, I think, all the same disconnect: 1. Between what women say and what men say 2. Between what women say and what women do 3. Between what women say and reality 4. Between what blue-pillers want to believe and red-pillers I think I can understand your persepective, most conveniently for me, as simply being the usual advice from women “Don’t be that guy.” Don’t be that guy that scores… Read more »
@jf12: That’s the thing, what most women claim to consider normal is actually “most recent guy I saw”/”pulled out of my ass”. However, there are clear trends in how men dress and behave and the closer a guy behaves to what is “socially acceptable”, the better his chances at scoring. When it comes to something longer-term, a myriad of factors come in and, having pondered it, I do think you’re right that the things that get men respected ARE often what females seek, independently of male respect. Seems to be very culturally dependent, through. Still looking into different societies and… Read more »
superslaviswife: yes, that’s what i’ve seen. the faith and strong family ties (also mother+father still together in good marriage) acted as a buffer to hypergamy. that’s how i view it in retrospect. you could also have a secular family but with a very alpha yet sacrificial father figure who works in the trades, et al, and who commands respect from his daughters. those daughters would also be candidates to make that choice early on…but in most cases, the ‘strong religious family’ is the most common catalyst.
Discussion is good. I think we’re circling the apex again. I think by “normal” a woman tends to mean “epitome”. The guy who is 10 is the “normal”, the 9 is already sub-normal.
read the twitter link to the anonymous mom. Then read the link at the bottom about some woman detailing why it’s not good to marry your soul mate. On a site called Your Tango.
Fits right in with Alpha fuks/beta buks and alpha widow. Even has some metaphysical spice thrown in for that special seasoning for the holidays.
http://www.mommyish.com/2012/10/18/step-parents-single-mom-468/
Wrong link.
http://www.yourtango.com/2014210669/love-stories-did-not-marry-love-of-my-life
@jf12 –
Difference between Alpha and Beta:
• Alpha looks at what women actually do, learns from it, and adjusts to reality
• Beta listens to what women say, ignores what women actually do, and doesn’t adjust to reality
IMO that is the major disconnect between alpha/beta behavior. Once you start paying attention to the actions of women and realise that you might as well completely ignore what they say, the rest should begin to slip into place. By “the rest” I mean confidence, frame control, etc.
@Steve H: Outliers aside (obviously), I think you’re spot on with religious ties and situations where culture and law take on a religious form. Interesting to consider that the right family structure may overwhelm the predominant culture. Although culture does often win out, even when all the factors are in place. It’s a bit like psychopathic killers: there are many psychopaths who go through hell growing up and never kill anybody. Really, we don’t know why some do, as they are the vast minority with no clear pattern. Likewise, there are many Alpha fathers (secular or religious) who raise their… Read more »
Re: a taken woman. I agree we can safely discount her vision. I think we’re still talking about the open sexual marketplace and how we can operationally define alphas as those men for whom women make themselves easy, especially sexually easy.
10/10 men are rare but they each get a LOT of women, in contrast the 10/10 women get few men.
@ BlackPoisonSoul – “Difference between Alpha and Beta: • Alpha looks at what women actually do, learns from it, and adjusts to reality • Beta listens to what women say, ignores what women actually do, and doesn’t adjust to reality” I’d add to this that the Beta internalizes feminine imperatives, values and perspectives. Even if he is choking on them and outraged by them, he still internalize them. I certainly did and found myself in a bind within myself when it came to women. I have some natural alpha traits and have had fairly high SMV at times in my… Read more »
this is our feminized wasteland encapsulated. James Franco met a 17 y/o chick, of legal age in the state of NY. He invited her to hookup. didn’t pressure her whatsoever. she committed 2 distinct acts of deceit within this brief text thread. 1) she signaled a willingness to betray her boyfriend back home. 2) she lied to james, saying she wouldn’t divulge their conversation. Well, a glance over the comments and feedback is illuminating. A few honest, no-bs guys stick up for James. The vitriol from white knights, manginas, feminists, and jealous/bitter/poorly-aging women is overwhelming (evidenced by the amount of… Read more »
Thanks, Rollo, again for this series. I’m referring a comment a made at deti’s article FYI: which are the options?
This may have been talked about before (More Men post), one of two thoughts came to me. When a woman goes thru the later anxiety phases, she seems to be able to set up date after date, trying to find that good man amongst the “where are all the good men”. Like the woman with the blog that wrote how great her husband was and then divorced him 8 months later. A change in behavior, like a light switch, similar to when they are setting up someone for a favor they want done. Thereby tallying a count just like they… Read more »
@Steve H
Is there a post that doesn’t use the word “creepy”? “Creepy” is the new scarlet letter.
If Franko were a cougar on the prowl, it would be depicted as “empowering.”
Behind the word “creepy” and behind the condemnation of Franko lies the unspoken feeling that male sexuality is dirty and ugly, that sex is something dirty a man does to a woman. Even men in the manosphere (especially the Christian variety) unknowingly adopt this position.
It’s feminine relativity. If Franco is 35 and she’s 17, he’s a “creepy older guy” no matter what his accomplishments or social proof might say. If Franco were 39 and this girl was 21 (same 18 year difference) no one thinks it’s news. If Franco is 45 and she’s 27 (Epiphany Phase), then they’re starting a family, and he’s an attractive, seasoned, intelligent (PhD) poet, actor who any girl would consider a prime Alpha catch. If Franco is 55 and she’s 37, he’s a hot older guy (a la Johnny Depp who just got engaged to his 2nd wife) with… Read more »
I am curious how a mans sexual market value as he ages is influenced by how old he looks vs how old he is. I am 35 not and so at the peak and a bit scared about the downward slide. However, I have consistently been getting the feedback that I look like I am under 30. about 29 is the usual guess. What happens to my sexual market value when a woman goes from knowing what I look like and what I do and make etc. to also knowing my actual age? Anything at all? A significant drop?
Rollo: Look at Woody Allen. Even after Soon Yi came forward to say their sexual relationship didn’t begin until she was 20, women still despise him. You’re right, Rollo: Woody (aware of his SMV) represents older male SMV power which women (women older than Soon Yi) find unthinkable (“creepy”?). It’s the ultimate insult to female sexual power – a 57 year old man dumping his 47 year old wife for a 20 year old woman. Lets tweak your third example. Franko is 45, she’s 27 but Franko is a short, bald, over weight, uneducated, unemployed factory worker. Would the Princess… Read more »
@JR, I’ll be addressing this in the next post, but I’ll c&p part of it now for your benefit. Remember that women’s priorities for attraction (not necessarily arousal) are dependent upon the necessities dictated by which phase of life she’s currently in. One reason I tag men’s peak SMV at or around 36-38 is partially due to their relative capacity for having attained the characteristics and accomplishments that women find the most desirable for long term commitment at about the same time women are the most necessitous of those qualities. As women approach the Epiphany Phase (later the Wall) and… Read more »
I just wanted to highlight the blatant examples of hypergamy in our comment thread.
From Elspeth, we have “my husband is really not that alpha” for coming from a line of men who are renown for having their choice of women, who had been banging a 19 year old, and who used to party with drug dealers.
From supserslaviswife, we have the definition of “middle ground” being a guy who has had more sex in less than a decade than most men have in their entire lives.
@Pellaeon, hypergamy abounds. In fact, if you think about it, it is imperative for women to be unable to see it, for hypergamy to persist. “It’s not that I think 80% of men are actually below average; that would be stupid. I just think 80% are obviously not worth it to the average woman; that’s different.”
Only people who never had to struggle can afford the luxury of being dipshits and ignoring the reality of SMV. They never had to look at the truth because their lives have never been uncomfortable enough to force them to look at it. That, and guys who don’t realize how frustrated they are because they smother their frustration with the hope that by sympathizing with the feminine imperative, they’ll get laid. I’m pissed as fuck about my situation, and as time goes on I just get even angrier. But at least at this point in my life, I’ve dropped the… Read more »
@Softek, good breakdown of SMV deniers. In the past 12+ years of my writing, commenting and expressing really anything red pill, I’ve developed a refined sense of the type of person who rejects these truths out of hand.
Usually it’s quick dismissive retorts that preserve any need for explanation and insulate that person from having to be exposed to anything that would disturb their comfortable dependency on a blue pill reality.
I want to say it’s intellectual lethargy, but that would mean they actually possess the attention span for intellectual curiosity. Point and sputter is all they’re capable of.
Thank you Rollo + Bachelor for your astute analyses.
My LTR’s 21 y/o sister, a mid-Atlantic college student, was overjoyed about a month ago when James reached out to her on Instagram. True story.
Softek – I’ll try to hit a number of points briefly. 1) traditional couch/talking therapy doesn’t work, except to keep your issues chronic yet manageable. Unless you’re suicidal, I wouldn’t go. Did that for 5+ years myself with 3 different therapists. Not sure it was even worth it. Adam + Dr. Drew recommended it at the time, I believed them. 2) Yes you are expected to shut up and refrain from judgement, but tackling those Cathedral-mandated imperatives makes you stronger. Ultimately I found it was usually best to shut up anyway (Rollo’s ‘Suck It Up’ speaks to that). In my… Read more »
@Softek “It is biologically impossible for women to experience the same level of sexual frustration that men do.” Right, and when the rare woman (such as Esther Perel) expresses adequate sympathy for (unwanted) men’s plight, it invariably turns out she has a high sex drive for a woman.
@ Steve H I’ve been hospitalized a couple of times because I was suicidal. My experiences during inpatient and outpatient actually made me even more reluctant to seek help the more serious my problems got. It does make you stronger. I’ve had days where my throat hurt from almost hanging myself and my body would have cuts all over it from mutilating myself; I’d just get up and go to work like nothing happened. Any time I was ‘treated’ years before for those behaviors, nothing helped. I’ve actually coped better alone because there’s no drama. Now, to bring this back… Read more »
Softek – I think you hit on the game-changer. Inner game is huge, I prefer to call it Inner work. It is so overlooked in the ‘sphere. I’m relatively new to the ‘sphere, and therefore I’m nobody special, but I come from the Brent Smith school and also 12 years of studying ACIM. Brent has major personal issues, his life is a disaster. But he taught me something that the Manosphere is reticent to acknowledge, even ‘Game’ purveyors like heartiste. ‘Extreme self talk’, affirmations, your story – this is a HUGE part of game and dudes can laugh it off… Read more »
@Softek: I am sorry to hear of your struggles. It does sound like you’ve made a major breakthrough though. I don’t know how old you are, but there does come a point in life, likely highly accelerated by this kind of knowledge, when you realize you are more perceptive than other people. More insightful than the average person: that’s not so startling. You’ve likely always been a truth seeker. But, when its the “professionals,” maybe even your parents, it can start to be a bit unsettling. That transition gives you all the responsibility yet simultaneously makes you free. The two… Read more »
@ Steve H Thank you so much for sharing that. I woke up panicking and reading your comment brought me down. It reminds me of the term “safe person” that Glover uses in the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. I remember “You Can Heal Your Life” by Louise Hay was a huge help to me. To my therapist’s credit, he recommended that to me. I also am getting back into doing EFT exercises, which I got into through a friend’s recommendation. I do find that they help a lot. Abandonment and rejection issues and other personal issues won’t go… Read more »
Rollo, I have a question with respect to the AFBB formula. I wholly agree with it. Women get off from a masculine body, a masculine attitude, a masculine face, and symmetrical features. But . . . how do we explain skinny, effeminate men like Mick Jagger and Prince? These men make the pussy throb and melt. Both are skinny, little, and effeminate. Mick can even be said to be ugly. Now we can say it’s because they’re rock stars. But that’s a cop out. If it’s fame, then we should expect to see women go nuts over Newt Gingrich. It’s… Read more »
@Bachelorocles, have a read:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/06/tickle-me-emo/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/11/case-study-creative-intelligence/
Bachelorocles,
Look for pictures of Mick from 1965, and consider he’s 70 today. Compare with the average Brit for 1965. Call it 50 years of reputation.
Have you seen Newt’s latest wife? True she’s hit the wall, but they met when she was 27. Maybe Newt’s BB situation, but this is his third wife. I’d bet he could upgrade to a younger model tomorrow if he wanted to.
Both Newt and Mick have money, status, and power/influence in their respective fields. Me thinks power/influence makes a bigger impact than looks since it’s much more scarce.
@BP :-
“the average Brit for 1965”
Sir, I was that soldier.
And what der jongheer von Jaeger had over the pie-faced natives was a certain labile and indescribable esculent .. volition, as opposed to An Actual Realiseable Sexual Threat inna SaturdayNightAndSunday Morning stylee.
Which goes a very, very long way to explaining our erstwhile premier “Tony the Liar” Linton’s obsession with the rubber-lipped Ancient One’s stage persona.
I ‘ad that ‘Ugh ‘Opper in the back of the cab once … complete gentleman.
@Tam, I’m certain that the reason girls found him so sexy and exciting back then was the credible threat of infection. Given the band’s bad boy reputation preceeding already in 1965, having made the jump from typical derivative losers to riot-inducing Dangers To Society, Jagger was the good-looking one, hard as it is to believe. Sullen, sneery; mad, bad; a girl just didn’t Know where those lips had been, but she liked to imagine. So he had the whole osculatory je ne sais qui thing going for him.
Softek- Right knowledge and attitude is one part of the equation. Normal or average conversation skills is the next part. Nothing special is needed. Then the last little part is looking for signals when women are interested. The book “Undercover Sex Signals” is good for that. Some of the attitudes in the book suck but the signals are spot on. There are some signs women give that aren’t mentioned in the book but knowing the ones mentioned are really all you’d ever need to be able to notice a woman who’s interested.
I read the articles. I did my best to poke holes in your arguments. I failed.
You nailed it! It’s the good genes evidenced in the creative intelligence of the rock star — eg, grace and swagger in movement on stage, overwhelming confidence, position of power, pre-selection, self absorption, and charisma.
Thank you. I’ve been trying to figure it out for years.
Social proof also plays a big part in our current environment.
I agree. But what is your take on this. When I’m getting a lot of sex, women find me more attractive — even without the social proof of women knowing I’m currently sleeping with other women. If I hit a dry spell, I have approx two weeks into the dry spell in which capitalize on the this . . . . can’t describe it . . . . a certain magic the sex gives me. When I’m getting it regularly, I notice a lot more attention, IOIs, positive feedback, smiles, looks, etc. It’s as if women can smell it on… Read more »
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/17/the-pheromonal-beta/
@Rollo: I am relatively new to this blog but have read a bit of your stuff and like your work. My only question regarding all of these “phases” women go through is this: It seems that the most secure and healthiest relationships are the ones where the girl is ‘chasing’ the man or showing traits of more investment towards the man etc etc. If this is the case then isn’t it not very wise to get into an LTR with a girl in her ‘prime’ and partying years? I would say yes. And this makes sense when you look at… Read more »
@Will, I’ll address this in part IV of this series when I sum up the chart.
More sex, greater pheromonal attraction, higher testosterone levels, the more sexual I act toward women, the more I view women as sex objects thus manifesting a more alpha attitude. More dopamine, greater confidence. This is why the magic cannot be faked. Nice work, bro. As for your discussion on sublimation: “Construction is a sublime male poetry. When I see a giant crane passing on a flatbed truck, I pause in awe and reverence, as one would for a church procession. What power of conception, what grandiosity: these cranes tie us to Ancient Egypt, where monumental architecture was first imagined and… Read more »
@jf12: I only mentioned her as an example of the process in action. An unhappily taken woman operates like a single one, a happily taken woman has a filter, a woman who gets a lot of attention also has a filter, a woman who gets little attention notices men more, etc. Selective vision. And I have finally concluded that this plays the major part in female mate-selection as well as how women tend to perceive the dating market and the men within it. A woman obsessed with celebrities is less likely to date or sleep with even an Alpha if… Read more »
@superslav,
http://therationalmale.com/2013/02/21/genetic-celebrity/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/13/have-a-look/
great post rollo the graphs really help visualise the passing changes throughout the years. ordered your book and left a comment on a older thread about GNO’s.Your helping me get some clarification in this difficult time
@saintNick< I read your comment on the GNO post: http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/27/girls-night-out/comment-page-2/#comment-35658 My advice? Eject now! At 26 y.o. you shouldn't even consider monogamy, and certainly not with an overweight woman predisposed to GNOs in spite of her physical condition. There is no reason you should continue with this girl. Get my book and/or read all of the post in Best of RM Year One and then Year Two. They're linked at the top of the blog. You need to kill your inner Beta. This is why you're having such difficulty in doing what you know you need to do – NEXT.… Read more »
@superslaviswife, I agree with much of your recent comment. I especially like your mentioning of the automatic filtering being so automatic that women don’t even notice what they themselves like! But re: an alpha that doesn’t look “right”, “like her current favourite celebrity”. Honestly, bluntly, women don’t operate that way. I’m certain this is what you mean’t by “normal” earlier, i.e. looking “right”, i.e. as an epitome as I said. No woman despises a man for looking like Javier Bardem when he could have been looking like Ryan Gosling her current favorite. Women don’t operate that way, in part because… Read more »
@jf12: Masturbatory fantasies of women don’t tend to reflect on what we’d actually want to do as individuals. The things that feature in fantasies serve two purposes for a woman, as our bodies function differently than those of men. [Text-wall alert. Skip down if you don’t care to know the two sides to women’s arousal response.] A woman’s body has two different mechanisms for arousal. One is the protective measures: lubrication, swelling of the vaginal walls, angling of the hips, etc. These can be triggered by ovulation, imagery that implies sex is about to happen (even violent rape or primates… Read more »
It seems significant to me that Luke Bryan is having his moment in the sun at age 37.
http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/luke-bryan-chugs-beer-takes-tequila-shot-on-the-ellen-degeneres-show-with-employee—-see-who-wins-201434
Re: relative alphas. Yes, there is such as thing as relative ease. But there is also absolute ease.
In addition to facial surgery becoming much more popular for men, I foresee a return to masque events among the bored and jaded classes. Women seem to be much more willing to be aroused by a masked man, presumably imagining he’s better looking than he is, than by an almost-good-looking man.
@jf12: Yes. It seems we agree there are a small group that enjoy absolute ease and a slightly larger group that enjoy relative ease, we just don’t agree on the terminology. “Language disguises the thought; so that from the external form of the clothes one cannot infer the form of the thought they clothe, because the external form of the clothes is constructed with quite another object than to let the form of the body be recognized.” Etc. [Wittgenstein. I won’t be presumptuous/snobbish enough to assume everybody has read his works or that it means anything anymore.] Masks I can’t… Read more »
@Rollo: Thank you. I’ll read them now, as I cook.
I won’t immediately launch into one of my detailed stories, but earlier this year I engaged a number of high school girls in a debate about the meaning of Sara Bareilles’ Brave song. The girls were unanimously convinced that Sara was desperately wanting some beta male, that she liked, to speak up and let her know how much he liked her. As if that ever works for a beta, and as if women “like” betas anyway. Naturally, I was correct, that she was encouraging some guy she DIDN’T like to go ahead and try for someone else. In this case… Read more »
@jf12 another singer who’s songs belie the SMV progression is Katy Perry, now 29, done with marriage #1 (such as it was) and entering the transitory phase.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/04/five-minutes-of-alpha/
Re: “the external form of the clothes is constructed with quite another object than to let the form of the body be recognized.” Believe it or not, this statement in almost exactly this language is part of our Pentecostal doctrine on holiness standards. Clothing is intended to coverup and disguise.
Part III? Come on, man!
posting tonight, had a rough last week.
From Elspeth, we have “my husband is really not that alpha” for coming from a line of men who are renown for having their choice of women, who had been banging a 19 year old, and who used to party with drug dealers.
I thought this conversation was long ended, but alas it hasn’t. My only point with what I said was that alpha is relative. What made my knees weak might not have the same effect on another woman.
@Roloo, yes Katy Perry is a good example. Raised right singing gospel, she felt strictured and was itching for alphas and so she ran away to LA right out of highschool. For the next several years she tried to play it straight, and as late as age 21 was still recording Christian songs. That all changed with her first taste of bad boys. She has said, in self-admiration of the time, that she sold her soul to the devil. By age 23 she was partying hard, and “I Kissed A Girl” eventuated. Evidently by 2010, “Teenage Dream”, she was already… Read more »
I thought Brave was her encouragement of a gay friend to come out.
@Kate, yes but a girl (you know girls!) likes to imagine herself as if she were a secretly handsome nerd boy (secretly, as in, you couldn’t tell by looking at him that he was handsome) and that She Would Do Things Differently, differently from all the too-many not-handsome-at-all nerds. And another thing a girl likes to imagine is that she is secretly a very pretty gay boy. And that she knows how to do That better too.
Never mind, Katy will always be assured of older alpha attention. Here’s a classic, about the only amusing moment from this summer’s grotesque Ashes debacle. Geoff Boycott had been chuntering on to Blowers for days about his admiration for young Katy on Test Match Special, as England were relentlessly ground into the dirt by the Aussies’ demon bowler (also because, as Boycott roared in fury at one point “they can’t bloody bat!”), and eventually she acquiesced to his gruff 73-year-old wiles. Hurrah! Mind you, he has been had up before the beak for knocking girlfriends about, allegedly for demanding marriage,… Read more »
Well-intended but erroneous to compare Katy Perry w Sara Bareilles. Do they both serve as tools of a corporate hierarchy? Sure. But Bareilles is a songwriter. Perry is a pop singer. Bareilles has written some excellent songs on her own. All of Bareilles’ singles cater to 18-45 y/o white women raised in a feminist academic-industrial complex, meaning they retain a sneering default posture towards men generally. Her confessional ballads, which were never singles, relate a startling vulnerability by contrast. But in ‘Brave’ – the refrain might as well be ‘I wanna see you be gay’. Because that’s all it is.… Read more »
Re: gay base. Let’s not forget “I Kissed A Girl”.
“Roar” and “Brave” are rhythmically very complementary. There’s even a mash-up of the two you could search for. I think Perry is a fan of Bareilles. Her support of “Brave” helped it become a hit after “Roar” even though “Brave” was released first.
“The truth about men’s mid-life crises isn’t about recapturing youth, it’s about finally understanding the trappings they’ve been sold into through their 20′s and 30′s and coming to terms with that often horrible truth. Some men do in fact buy the sports car, get the new hottie wife or act in some fashion that appears reckless and irresponsible. This isn’t due to infantilism, but rather new understanding of their own position as men. They’ve “lived responsibly” for so long and for so little appreciation that when that true realization is made they feel the need to move.” This is where… Read more »
Reese Belfort, on the issue of looks…..women are attracted to Masculine men, sexually and otherwise. Masculine does not necessarily equate with good looks in the conventional sense of facial symmetry and proportions. Russell Crowe during his pre-flab years was very masculine (think Gladiator) and attractive, though not technically attractive in the face. Same with Gerard Butler. Then there are men who are technically attractive in the face, but not really that masculine. Pretty boys (eg. Orlando Bloom) and some members of boy-bands come to mind. The thing is, maculininty in looks can be developed and enhanced – so men are… Read more »
Top stuff as always. I think however it’s important to look at the Cougar phenomenon not based on these exceptional celebrity cases but based on what I believe are the most common couplings. The cougar couples I know have all been former 8s or 9s with a guy who will never be better than a 7 at his best. So when they eventually hook up, the best he will ever be is 2 points over her. There are going to be no eventual 8s or 9s giving him a second look. and men are generally OK with being 1 or… Read more »
There are touchstones embedded in the SMV timeline. These aren’t anchored to age per se, but life events. For example the party years begin after escaping parental influence. For someone like Lindsay Lohan, the partying started at age 13, not 20, highly affecting timing of subsequent milestones. At 13 she tingled for the alphaest boy she could get, the richest boy she knew personally, and felt emancipated enough to go for it. At age 19 she was already laughed at by her peers as a used-up slut. If we take peak SMV as 2-3 years into alpha-seeking party phase that… Read more »
@saintNick: Adding to what Rollo said, here’s some advice that I believe is from Forney: withdraw sex for a month before dumping her, to get rid of the chance of her sleeping around and/or declaring pregnancy to get you back or try and wrangle child-support. I haven’t seen your other comment, but from what Rollo said I’ll assume she’s an entitled female trying to lock you down as a back-up-plan.
“For the spiritually inclined woman (which is to say most women) this may manifest in a convenient return to religious convictions she’d disregarded since her adolescence.”
And the “Born Again Virgin” (near the top of completely retarded female inventions) is born!
So I’m a bit confused here… It makes sense that women’s SMV peaks at the age of ~23. Men of all ages would agree with this, but men are consistent… the qualities they desire don’t change much. Men’s SMV peaks at 38, but does this apply to women of all ages? Or does this only apply to women who are also around that age? Rollo’s articles also assert that women are more aesthetically-focused until their mid/late 20’s, but then begin the transition into wanting a provider. Does the 38 year old man attract mainly the women who want providers? Or… Read more »
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A female primate’s sexual value decreases dramatically after her early twenties. This is a fact, it is accepted by all serious pick-up artists including James “The King” Weidmann
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