Cashing Out

Photo on 2011-06-24 at 10.51

Well I didn’t think I had one more of these in me, but after having read Morpheus’ most recent debunking of Aunt Giggles’ third plea for manosphere site traffic help with her failed rebrand,..SMV analysis, I thought I’d propose a few other dynamics I’ve observed in all of Susan’s schoolyard rock throwing.

The main reason the Tomassi SMV Graph is in any way contentious with the zealots of the feminine imperative is that it points out the ugly truth that the age range women attempt to cash in their SMV chips (27-30) in marriage is conveniently the time at which most women begin to acknowledge their lessened capacity to compete with the next wave of women entering their SMV peak. They dislike this reminder for a couple of reasons.

The first, is simply the audacity of having a Man be aware of how the dynamic works and explain it to women in stark, unflattering terms that they have a real tough time accepting. Of course, they are aware of this on some level of consciousness, but to have any Man read this awareness back to them in no uncertain terms is a threat to women’s sexual strategy. One theme the manosphere has always pointed out, and the mainstream media is reluctantly beginning to address, is the predisposition of women to enjoy their ‘party years’ (18-26) and then, as Dalrock has noted so well, exit the cock-carousel at or around 30 years of age and ‘settle down’ with the “he’ll have to do” Beta provider who’s been patiently waiting his turn (after the Alpha cads are done with her) to get with her.

As I’ve stated in previous posts, even Susan Walsh concurs that women popularly express a desire to be married between the ages of 28 and 32. In essence, Aunt Sue is agreeing with my cashing out observation, but can’t seem to wrap her head around why this age bracket would predominantly be the time women would want to pair off in the long term security of marriage.

Actually she does know why, but her rebrand audience demands a fantasy she (and every other plugged-in HuffPo gender pundit) is required to deliver. According to her most recent posts, women’s prime sexual market value can, and mostly does, extend well into women’s 50’s (hell, why stop there, when apparently it can go into a gal’s 80’s). She simply picks up the girl-world / equalitarian narrative’s fantasy for female SMV and the Myth of Sexual Peak and feeds it back to the 7 or 8 commenters she approves to post comments on her blog. See Sue? You’ve just rebranded around reheating what other bloggers have already beat you to years ago.

I wouldn’t so much care about this repackaging, but Aunt Giggles further compounds the lie with this assertion:

2. Fertility declines very gradually between the ages of 27 and 35.

In a study of 782 couples:

They found that women between the ages of 19 and 26 with partners of similar age had approximately a 50 percent chance of becoming pregnant during any one menstrual cycle if they had intercourse two days prior to ovulation. For women aged 27 to 34, the chance was 40 percent.

3. Fertility declines more dramatically after 35.

Even then, female fertility hardly goes to zero:

For women over the age of 35, the probability dropped to 30 percent.

Notice how the male sexual value begins its precipitous drop at around 36, after declining gradually for five years. Not much difference.

She knows this is flagrant, potentially damaging, bullshit, but posts it because it makes good copy for her rebrand and her ignorant girl-world readers will eat it up. I say it’s flagrant bullshit because she knows better and has posted about it in the past:

III. Tick Tock Biological Clock

Despite progressive sex ed curricula in most areas of the country, adult women today are seriously misinformed about the state of their ovaries.

During a recent story that aired on NPR one infertile woman in her early 40s couldn’t understand it. She insisted that she works out regularly, does yoga, even has a personal trainer. She eats well and is healthy. She never knew that her ovaries were becoming less productive in spite of those measures.

A recent survey found that women dramatically underestimate how much fertility declines with age. They estimated that a 30 year-old had an 80% chance of getting pregnant in one try. The real likelihood is 30%. They also thought a 40 year-old woman would have a 40% success rate, while those odds are less than 10%.

Women are surprised to learn this information and they’re angry about it.

And that was around the same time I wrote the Myth of the Biological Clock. So whom do you trust HUS readers? The 2011 Susan Walsh, warning against cashing out of the SMP too late (or more difficult) to conceive, or the 2013 rebranded, marketeer Susan Walsh who’s telling you your SMV never drops below that of men’s and you can settle down and easily have it all into your 50’s and 60’s?

The Warning

The Second reason the Tomassi SMV graph is so inflammatory is that it poses a direct threat to the feminine imperative (and all its adherents, male and female) in that it serves as a warning for young men to be well aware of this cashing out dynamic, while encouraging them to invest in themselves and become Game-aware so as to capitalize on it when their time comes. I wrote about this preparation in The Epiphany Phase:

For red pill, Game-aware Men, this is a supremely important stage in women’s maturation to consider. A woman in the Epiphany Phase is looking for a “fresh start” for a much more visceral reason than some newly inspired sense of self. This motivation prompts all kinds of behavioral and social conventions to facilitate a man’s commitment to forgiving her past indiscretions. As Roosh has pointed out more than once, it’s women in this phase of life (or the mothers of women in this phase) who most vocally complain about men’s lack of interest in committing to them. As Hephzibah is painfully aware of, women in their peak SMV years don’t complain about a dearth of marriageable men– “Man Up” is the anthem of women in the Epiphany Phase.

The Epiphany Phase, and all the accompanying psychological, social and conveniently religious self-rationalizing for it, is the signaling of a woman ready to cash out of the SMP casino. Women’s pluralistic sexual strategy hinges upon men’s ignorance of it up to, or far enough past it, to consolidate and optimize Hypergamy. Although I wrote Final Exam – Navigating the SMP as a bit tongue in cheek, the intent was to seriously address a common complaint and request:

“Rollo, I just wanted to say that your stuff has been truly groundbreaking for me. This material should be a graduation requirement for all high school seniors.”

Where the hell was all this info and wisdom when I was single? I so wish I’d discovered the manosphere / red pill before I proposed / had kids / got divorced / got burned by listening to what my girlfriend said / was younger,..etc. etc.”

The primary reason I compiled the Rational Male into a book form (and made it affordable) was to serve exactly this purpose; to educate and warn the upcoming generations of young men of the complexities of women’s sexual strategies being played on them, while also, and regrettably, educating those men with the predisposition to accept the realities they’ve probably fallen prey to. Really this is the mission of the manosphere on whole, but as I stated in The Threat, for the feminine imperative to sustain itself, the FI can’t afford this awareness to become too widespread, otherwise the feminine loses its social primacy.

This maintaining of feminine social primacy is at the heart every social convention perpetuated by the feminine imperative. Every Jezebel gender pundit, every Aunt Giggles, every PZ Meyers or Hugo Schwyzer (until he comes clean) is only interested in perpetuating a feminine social control via a constant repetition and fluid repurposing of feminine social convention. I’ve posted before that on the surface this might seem conspiratorial, but the real truth of the matter is the underlying desire for this control is less about effecting social power and more about maintaining as indefinitely as possible women’s capacity to optimize hypergamy.

Perpetuating the myth that women’s SMV remains a viable constant (and exceeding that of men’s) over the course of a lifetime may seem like arrogance, but the latent purpose of that myth is to extend a woman’s prospects of optimizing hypergamy well past a realistic believability. As women advance socially, economically, educationally and professionally the necessity to extend SMP viability long past a women’s realistic peak SMV becomes increasingly more necessary as the difficulty and effort-investment of measurable success becomes more prolonged. The tl:dr takeaway is, the longer it takes for women to ‘have it all’ the longer it takes for a woman to optimize an acceptable hypergamy, the longer she needs to believe her SMV is still viable.

Thus for a woman to literally ‘have it all’ she, and every man invested in the feminine imperative, must be conditioned to believe that a woman’s SMV can remain competitively intact well into her 50’s. Susan Walsh is only one such profiteer cashing in on convincing women that they shouldn’t feel what they all instinctively feel – that they should be cashing out at or around 30.

For this extension to be realized it becomes increasingly important that men be kept ignorant of the feminine imperative and women’s long term sexual strategy. The outrage isn’t about 38 year old men thinking they can get with 22 year old women (which was never proposed) but rather the real outrage stems from enlightening young men that they will eventually possess more SMV potential than women after 30, to prepare for it, and not submit their lives to women’s imperatives for men. In other words, the Tomassi SMV Graph warns men that it will be within their power not to let women have their hypergamous cake and eat it too.

85 comments

  1. My own personal prediction:

    Between this awareness becoming more common…and the current trend of women waiting even longer to marry…if the median age for men to marry ever hits 30, the marriage rate will plummet quickly.

  2. Prediction… Married Men that learn (learning) this for the first time will skyrocket – once they learn how they’ve been duped by their conditioning, and that they are the power (because most Men after about 7 or 8 years of marriage, forget they have any power at all), there will be a bunch of “shape up or ship out” wife-fights going on.

    I will say this again…IF I had know this 10 years ago, one of two things would have happened….(1) I would have one of the best marriages imaginable and a great relationship with my wife OR (2) I would divorced much sooner, fought to be the custodial parent to my 3 kids, and not have passed through the great-beta-husband world.

    This information is important for my sons, that are entering their worlds (18 & 14) and has great value for them. But the group of Men that could benefit the most, are those that are married, unhappy and really can’t figure out why their world just doesn’t work. Taking that bitter sweet Red Pill and seeing how the world really works – and who really has the power – is something that has to happen, to save all generations of Men – current and future.

    I really believe it’s that important.

  3. All men have to do is stand firm and say “No, thanks.”

    Married Men that learn (learning) this for the first time will skyrocket – once they learn how they’ve been duped by their conditioning, and that they are the power (because most Men after about 7 or 8 years of marriage, forget they have any power at all), there will be a bunch of “shape up or ship out” wife-fights going on.

    And if there is no shaping up, well, divorce can be expensive because it’s worth it, and it can be a lot less expensive if you prepare for it.

  4. In Ms. Walsh’s defense, as a postmodern feminist who partakes in equalist ideology, she can’t help but see her own femininity from a male perspective. For feminism is merely masculinity envy. Male fertility remains a potent force through a man’s 60s. Thus, obviously, so to should women’s fertility. QED

  5. as Game serves to swell the ranks of high value males ever so steadily, these beezy’s just gotta know it’s all over.

    without all that free poosy, they got nothing. feminism isn’t giving them anything, no strong men, no money, and no status. no value to these no value girls. perhaps we can start male-only clubs and sports once again.

  6. This all would not be such a big deal if it were not for how men get screwed so badly in divorce court. Who gives a shit how many dicks my wife has had before she married me, if there are no consequences to divorce. Just get divorced and call it a day. But there are huge consequences. Ongoing alimony, outrageous divorce settlements, etc etc. Now that courts take 1/2 my money, I have to care how many dicks my wife has had before me.

    Marriage is so old fashioned now. It is simply not suitable to today’s legal climate. Too damn risky for men.

  7. SMV hamsterbation is like debt financing.

    The more the hamster runs, the more speed the wheel builds up, and the faster the hamster has to run to maintain the divorce (heh) from reality, because any slowdown on the hamster’s part quickly ends with it getting chucked unceremoniously out of the wheel and landing flat on its back.

    This is why women tend to double down when called on something, because when faced with a potentially illusion-destroying reality check, the solution is obviously to spin the wheel faster. The problem is that, like debt financing, they know subconsciously that sooner or later the speed (debt) becomes unsustainable and it is Game Over.

    Giggles’ grasping at straws is just attempts apply for new credit cards to try to keep the game going as long as possible.

  8. The one problem I always had with the graph is that the y-axis says “SMV”, while it’s actually supposed to be a measure of how much of the peak potential SMV is reached. It leads to misunderstandings. If it was a real pure raw SMV chart, women’s would always be much higher than men’s, women being gatekeepers of sex and all.

    Having said that, Susan is disappointing lately, with her “pedo” comments about men who are honest about the SMV of 16 year old girls. A prime example of a woman getting old and attacking men’s sexuality because she’s no longer hot. Or appealing to women who are getting old and want to hear men who are attracted to 16 year olds are just pedophiles. If it’s the latter, I hope she feels selling her soul was worth it.

  9. “until Hugo Schwyzer comes clean” keep up Rollo! https://twitter.com/hugoschwyzer/status/365915537357803520

  10. How do you account for the later carousel riders at ages say 35-45? I have seen many more of these lately. They look like like they have been ridden hard and put away wet, but quite a few seem to still get attention. The guys seem more like more beta orbiters they pluck down as needed though.I have seen a couple of lower alphas pump and dump them or walk as soon as their true colors are seen, and the women seem to take it all in stride. Pretty messed up.

    I had a 45 y/o want to marry me up after like 4 months of knowing her. She was very experienced in bed, but I was just fresh from my divorce and was quite content to tend my garden and play with my race cars than pay full price for some very well used equipment. I think she tried every tactic in the book. She even offered me a $300K house on some land to sweeten the deal, and told me she wanted to have my child, WTF! I thought about it for a few days, but…

    Finally I had to tell her I would never live with or marry her, and she was way to old Back to the young ones. Trainable and a hell of alot less mileage.

  11. @thelastgood14u
    Long-standing habits are hard to break for any human being; that’s why it’s dangerous to get on and stay on the Carousel for too long.

    Another is the fact that some women cannot fathom this:

    SMV != MMV

    Just because I guy will sleep with you, doesn’t mean he wants anything to do with marrying you.

    This is something else that Susan is ignoring: SMV vs MMV.

  12. The unfortunate thread of hope many women appear to grasp onto when justifying their SMV goes beyond 25 is because they look at isolated exceptions of friends or acquaintances who score younger men. It’s as if these random moments of living magic make up for the other 99% of true happenings.

    The problem with this claim, and I do accept their are men with older and uglier women, is 3 fold:
    1) Some of these men are simply using these women to clear the pipes on a probable dry spell, or just treating her as a sloppy fresh lay.
    2) Most of these men are the typical lowest calibre guys in the market – low levels of physical attractiveness, charisma, resources, status, potential, etc. They will take any women they can get just to have something to go back to. The easiest bite on a fisherman’s rod is older and, hence, less glamorous women
    3) If it just so happens to be a decent looking guy who grades down with an older and less striking women (even against his own relativity), a man of this kind has such low confidence in himself that he has reached a stage where he doesn’t have the inner belief to score a better looking woman. This clouds the restricted value a woman with him actually has.

    I believe 3) is the point that gives women the most hope. Ladies, how many top quality men above the age of 25 do you know with women who still look great in physical terms?

  13. I’m lucky to have stumbled upon this and being pretty young (23). I’ve been applying game theory since I was a teen but this is most definitely an eye opener for me as the stakes start to get bigger. The more I learn about the red pill the more I can sift through the bullshit. Everytime any blue-pill moments of weakness seep I’ve managed to snap out of it just in time. It’s sad that it is seen so often on social media. Here’s the latest “popular” article being posted on facebook:

    http://sethadamsmith.com/2013/11/02/marriage-isnt-for-you/

    A sad state of affairs to be honest.

  14. Fertility, fertility, fertility. All anyone talks about is fertility, but there is more to being able to bear a healthy child than just fertility.

    1) Fertility rate: the ability to get pregnant
    2) Miscarriage rate: the ability to carry a pregnancy to term
    3) Birth defect rate: the ability to giver birth to a healthy child

    it’s a 3-legged stool. Without 3 solid legs the stool will fall over.

    A woman in her 20’s has a 1/10 chance of miscarrying.
    At 30 it’s 1/5.
    At 35 it’s 1/4.
    AT 40 it’s 1/3.
    AT 45 it’s 1/2.

    A woman in her 20’s has a 1/1200 chance of delivering a baby with a genetic anomaly (such as downs).
    At 35 it’s 1/350.
    At 40 it’s 1/38.
    At 45 it’s 1/12.

    Even if a woman in her 30’s manages to get pregnant, the odds are high that she won’t deliver a healthy child. The odds that she will be able to conceive AND deliver two healthy children in 30’s are stacked against her (not impossible, but not probable).

    These numbers were pulled from here: http://www.socalfertility.com/age-and-fertility/

    There is also an outstanding video at the site by one of the doctors discussing pregnancy and age. Unlike the standard “don’t worry, be happy, we can fix it” line you hear from most fertility specialist, he is forthright about the difficulties of pregnancy and age.

    I’m glad to know there are a few doctors willing to tell it like it is. If both men and women had better access to this type of info,their decisions about marriage and childbirth would be very different.

  15. @Emma

    I think the only way that a woman’s SMV could always be higher than a man’s is if you were talking about things like a woman’s ability to make a living in mass media without ability to actually do or be good at something. And with the current way the entertainment world is now with the plethora of fake reality and Miley types, it’s probably the easiest time ever for a female to make money in entertainment.
    I wouldn’t even call them the gate keepers of sex. Now how the usual dynamics play out leading to sex of how the man is usually the one who verbalizes it, the man ask the woman out, etc.. but that’s more because women don’t like doing the asking, they don’t want to be turned down. Because a woman who flirts to get a guy to react to it, is still the initiator. So if a guy doesn’t want to do anything, she can tell herself that she didn’t get rejected because she didn’t actually say out loud that she wants to go out.
    I know the typical thinking is that men always pursue and initiate, and women make the approval, but it’s more common than people give credit to happen the other way.

    Regarding the photo, yep, it’s a good one. However, the photo to “The Script”, worth right clicking and saving.

  16. @Mr.A

    I understand that a woman’s SMV != MMV, but I thought that a man’s SMV was at least in-part tied to his MMV.

    Were you just saying that women, by and large, don’t differentiate between their SMV and their MMV?

  17. Read the other link about too many men saying there will be about 30mill more men than women soon.
    Yet there’s a shortage of men to date.
    Then there’s the line that said men tend to marry down and “left over women” (made me laugh reading that) having standards too high.
    Then I look over to the right column and see a story talking about jilted mistresses coming forward to expose graft.
    Funny.

  18. “So, the Susan-approved SMV graph has female SMV drop 50% by 31 and the Rollo graph by 30. One year really makes all that much difference? lol”

    It must be like the Price is Right.

  19. @Elan
    Yes. While Rollo’s graph may consider aspects of MMV (are a man’s resources part of the SMV or MMV curves or both?) within his thumbnail sketch of how SMV changes with age, many women seem to think that SMV = MMV for all ages of their lives. Worse, some even seem to think that time on the Carousel can make MMV > SMV for a potential mate.

    This may be some of what thelastgood14u was highlighting with his story about the 45-year old who was offering her own dowry for marriage to him. If she was good enough for him to bed, then she must be good enough to marry.

    Susan’s analysis doesn’t seem to consider that even if a woman manages to keep a higher-than-average SMV in later life, her time on the Carousel, grrl power indoctrination, or multiple failed relationships may greatly deperciate her MMV ranking for men. Say, SMV = 7 and MMV = 4 will get attention and sex, but fewer offers of a ring.

    This is probably very true if she is quite open about being a Carousel rider. She is displaying short-time preferences for men to see. As has been poited out here and elsewhere, men do take note–perhaps not as often as they should, but they do note it.

  20. At the end of the day, the main thing is, a woman’s SMV/MMV isn’t what she or her friends think it is, it’s what we say it is. We’re the purchasers of the product being marketed.

    The reverse is also true.

    If out in the mix looking to buy and sell, it’s good to maximize your offering, and also very good to be aware of what you’re getting in trade. Truth in advertising and all that.

  21. @8to12 — Yes, you’re right. It is bitter, has little tiny barbs and goes down very, very hard. It hurts like hell – but the pain is worth it.

  22. And let’s get real here. Women can have sex at anytime – 60 year olds can have sex. 45 year olds can have sex. I read something the other day, that if played right, they can probably find a man, that once he has sex with her, he might want to keep her around – and if he’s blue pill enough, he will marry her. It happens all the time – and places like Match.com and eHarmony are filled with these men.

    Now, here’s what I’ve been thinking about…in these marriages, where they marry, but they are too old have additional children – is there really a “tie” or “bond”? Is there really any reason to stay together if it gets too tough or difficult – either one can jump out (although once again, the Man will still bear the cost of it). At least, if you marry and have children – there is something to fight for. Bit of a ramble, but never underestimate how far a woman will go to secure her life or how far a beta male will go to secure easy pussy.

  23. Fertility and good children are only a factor when you actually want kidlets. When you don’t want them, there is no point to marriage.

    This is why the fe bots invented “de-facto relationships” in New Zealand. Basically if you keep a girl around for sex for 2+ years, you are considered de-facto married. Then you can be divorced and she gets half-plus of everything, even if you lived separately (ie she was renting a place and you have your own home).

    Coming to a state near you, so don’t bloody slip up.

  24. “Is Kanye West the Black Mark Minter”

    So now I can claim my name and Kayne West’s name are often used in the same sentence.

    I have this saying that a people receive the government they deserve. It has been measured that while Asians score higher in intellect than North Americans, they score far lower in conscientiousness. And thus where self control is part of the North American character and the desire from North Americans is for “freedom” from their government, Asians have more or less, outsourced control from the self to the culture and their institutions and religions reflect that.

    Good citizenship, active participation, and an aggresive desire for truth and knowledge will lend itself to good government. Anything less from the citizenry leads to lesser government. Self control on the part of the citizens lead to less control on the part of government. Respecting the civil rights and property rights of others on the parts of citizens permits governnment that does have enforce those rights and ownerships.

    You could also say the same thing that people receive the media they deserve.

    If you are a regular reader of Rational Male then you “deserve” what you receive from participating in this blog.

    If a female reader follows Susan Walsh and whatever her current thing is called, then she deserves what she gets from that.

    We can indict Ms. Walsh for her journalistic stance and for pandering to her readers but the fact of the matter is:

    That is what her readers wish to hear.

    And they deserve to hear it.

    I can speak from experience that I wrote some stuff a year ago and then moved on from that as I read, researched, learned, and grew as a person who benefitted from the teachings in our little “renegade corner of the internet”. My writing reflected that and move in a more data driven, more research driven, more scientific form.

    And one can judge response to offerings merely by looking at response rates. And inevitably the newer, more rational writings of mine, were dwarfed by responses to older, more emotional rantings. I probably posted far more things about the effect of testonerone on social and sexual success than prior anti-marriage things. But you would never know it by asking for a description of me.

    But the stuff that went viral was the stuff that men wanted to hear. And if the smart writer wants to be read, wants to remain viable, to cut through the clutter and clamor of so much cultural noise, then he is most aware of his cache and never forgets that cache, and when necessary, go to the well to draw upon it when necessary to maintain their competitiveness and position.

    Matt Forney wrote that he would spend hours and hours writing something that he felt would truly help men and get 200 hits. But when he put up a post making fun of a bearded feminists that took 5 minutes he would get 10,000.

    And in the end, people get what they deserve.

    It is a ridiculous thing that my name and Kanye West occur in the same sentence in a major manosphere publication. The reality of his situation and mine are obviously entirely different. And further the stuff written over the past months is so incredibly wrong and so far from the reality of what is going on that it causes me to question the credibility of other subjects on which these people write.

    But the truth is, and it is a hard truth, people are a resource to be mined for opportunity and exploited for fame and profit.

    And those that protest this reality need to grow up and understand the way of the world. Wolves need not be concerned about what sheep want.

    So if it helps Return of Kings to grow in internet rankings from number 19,203 to number 19,202 by equating me to Kanye West and offset the recent slide in their ranking from 13,000 something to the current level then they owe it to themselves to do so and they owe me nothing. I stepped into the fray to become a public personality and this sort of thing is what might come with that.

    It doesn’t take a fool to see that Kanye West has grown in public awareness off of two major things, the Taylor Swift thing, and his relationship with Kim Kardashian. She only has competition, literally, from the mother of the future King of England and actually that other Kate literally is playing second fiddle to KK in the competition for attention and empathy of the women of the whole fucking world. Kanye has a bigger dick than the future King of England.

    And he marries a woman in her 30s, and the only reason she is in that position for him to consider her is she puts a lot on the table. If she was 30something year old KK from Krispy Kreme working the morning shift, would she ever be considered for this position even looking as she looks? Her odds of that would be far higher if she were 21 year old KK from KK.

    And given all we know about hypergamy, it speaks volumes about him that she accepted him in that role. We all can jump up and down over the 33 year old woman with an accounting degree demanding “her equal” who is the guy in the corner office, yet rejecting anyone close to her peer group. So imagine a woman that cannot even go to 7-11 without cameras blazing away, capturing her every move, who is reportedly worth 30 million dollars, yet has intanglible value for which you cannot measure in monetary terms, imagine what she would presume to be “her equal”? And I guess that man is Kanye.

    I can say something similar. Go into any gathering of women, and collect together all of the 35 year olds into group and if there were 100 of them, Kate is more attractive than 99. She has a masters degree, owns a custom home on the shore of a lake that few of you will ever own something equivalent. She is sufficiently independent financially. And she puts a lot on the table. Yet, to find her man, one she would accept and would also accept her and be willing to commit to her, she had to accept a 58 year old in man in my rather famous financial situation.

    The New Century Man ‏@NewCenturyMen 15h
    Kanye is a beta masquerading as an alpha. http://www.returnofkings.com/20772/is-kanye-west-the-black-mark-minter … via @[twitter]

    So this claim is a bit disengenious given that the fundamental definition of alpha, aside from any interpretation of any behavior or demeanor is:

    Alpha is the man that women want to sleep with.

    And right now, I can claim membership in that club and I am pretty Kanye West is a gold member. And despite all the furor, all the mud slinging, the egg throwing, she is right here at my side.

    And frankly, I own this bitch and I defy her to come into this forum and say that I don’t.

    But it panders to the readership of Return of Kings who truly wish to read what they wish to read.

    And on the flip side …

    There is ample data showing the logjam of unmarried women that is growing. Dalrock has posted much info about this, as have other mainstream sources. The data is readily available from the Census Department. And it is intuitively obvious to women and while Ms Walsh can site OKCupid data for her assertions, one only need to read the tone of women’s profiles to see that they understand the SMV curve, as those profiles go from assertive and demanding at 32 to accepting and humble at 38. They know it is not so much that the number of inquiries drop as it is that the quality of those men inquiring drops.

    The Tomassi SMV curve explains a possible reason why. We tend to accept it (1) because it responds to our own observations and (2) We want to accept it because of the “just desserts” we wish upon women and (3) It does provide men with a narrative that allows them to choose a life path alternative to what we were told to accept before that can allow them both maximize potential and avoid some of traps that befell the prior generation of men.

    If Susan Walsh can gain the fame she wishes and earn the money she needs by pandering to women, then it is her good luck and astute awareness to have found this niche and this opportunity. We have ample writers doing much the same thing in our community.

    And all the hand wringing in the world on our part does nothing more than feed that opportunity by bringing necessary attention to her and her postings.

    Because in the end, her readers get what they deserve. As do those in the manosphere.

  25. @Latim

    As a “red pill aware” man you see the bullshit and beta fantasies in your linked article right away:

    >We were friends for ten years until…until we decided no longer wanted to be just friends.

    Translated: I was an orbiter for 10 years until -she- decided I was good enough.

    >I strongly recommend that best friends fall in love.

    Yeah right, as if that was some logical decision…

  26. @Tin Man said:

    ‘…is there really a “tie” or “bond”? …either one can jump out (although once again, the Man will still bear the cost of it).’

    At that age, there’s your bond: fear.

    For her, a fear of being alone.

    For him, if he’s blue-pill, there’s a fear of being alone. Along, of course, with the ever-present fear of her divorcing him for cash and prizes.

  27. “And frankly, I own this bitch and I defy her to come into this forum and say that I don’t.” HAHAHAHA And how innocently you replied “fine” to me asking how your night was this morning 😉 This sounds like a challenge if there ever was one, but I don’t plan to defy you. I seem to recall the last time I accepted such a challenge, I ended up engaged…:) Yeah, you own me, but its not such a bad thing to be so owned.

  28. @Elan: Thomas Ball and Mark Minter had a lot more in common than you seem to realize. One is dead; the other is still living. There is a way through, but, the point is, the readership isn’t ready to hear it. Until they are, the content of blogs will remain unchanged.

  29. “keep a girl around for sex for 2+ years, you are considered de-facto married”

    So, keep more than 1 around for sex. I have 3 in rotation, they know about each other, and others that I call upon as needed – with several in the pipeline ready to set up as one gets retired. Since I don’t live with any of them, any one of them would be hard-pressed to argue that it was anything more than what it is – a f-buddy set up.

    Women are becoming more and more open to this type of set up as they get more and more desperate – just keep some bait dangling and toss them when they start showing their age, or get clingy… A friend just got divorced from a “fugly” harpy of a woman, and he now has two sweet young things he’s seeing and building up a “harem”.

    Hey – it’s worked for hundreds of years – don’t argue with something that works. Having more than one woman robs all of them of any real power – so either they do what you want, or they are tossed while you bring on a replacement. And women like to compete against other women – you are almost superfluous since they are competing against each other – you get to enjoy the winner each night. That is the natural state of things…

  30. (MM) Mark Minter
    (KK) Kate Kavanaugh (Anastasia Steele’s bff & roommate in “Fifty Shades of Grey”) from the trilogy that sold 70 million units between April and December of 2012. Fiction.
    (KW) Kanye West
    (KK) Kim Kardashian
    (MM) Mark Minter
    (KM) Kate Minter (soon)

    How much of KW/KK story is scripted?

    Alliteration works when building a global brand of influence.

    (DD) David Deangelo
    Robert Redford
    Danny DeVito
    Boris Becker
    Malcolm McDowell
    Jesse James
    Kevin Kline
    Lorenzo Lamas
    Sylvester Stallone
    Ryan Reynolds
    Billy Blanks
    Aziz Ansari
    Billy Burke
    Mandy Moore
    Lindsay Lohan
    Amy Adams
    Marisa Miller
    Kelly Clarkson
    Kristin Kreuk
    Lucy Lui
    Amy Acker
    Leona Lewis
    Sarah Silverman
    Helen Hunt
    Holly Hunter
    Courtney Cox

  31. I think that Walsh’s points are closer to the truth than the ‘Sphereans.

    First, SW advocates that women begin searching *in earnest* for a husband right after college. She argues that the studies indicate that 27-30 is the ideal age for long term marriages that are successful. She also argues that college education correlates highly with lower divorce, lower infidelity and longer marriages. She is telling women to avoid cads, find the betas that will make a good living and make a good man and marry him early. Why on earth is the Manosphere giving her shit for that? Her message is essentially a secular version of the Trad message; ie Dalrock and company.

    Regarding age and SMV, I think the Manosphere *does* overstate the extent of a man’s value as he ages. Yes, a game aware man can sleep with younger women. But so can any decent looking woman in her 30s and 40s. A 38 year old PUA can approach hundreds of young girls and run his game and get laid. A good looking 38 year old woman can put on a mini skirt and high heels and walk in any bar and “pull” a younger man on basically any night she wants.

    You’ll counter “but she can’t get commitment from him”. Yeah your right. But can the 38 old dude get a martial commitment from the young girl if he wanted? The stats say that the odds are against him. It is only less than 8% of men that marry a woman more than 8 years younger than him. And Walsh has shown that the majority of those marriages are to less attractive, less educated women. Michael Douglas, Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis and Hugh Hefner are statistical outliers. Guys like Krauser can bang cute 21 year olds that probably find it adventurous to have sex with a man 17 years older than her. But does that meant that they want to marry him; ie his “marriage market value”?

    But you’ll argue that game aware men don’t want to get married. OK Peter Pan. Most men get married. As Walsh has said countless times. Long term relationships are a human imperative. The majority of men that don’t get married are losers in life not George Clooney. They’re omegas not apex alphas.

    Yes, Game is a viable skill that men would do well to learn. But the Manosphere goes waaaaaay too far with its dogma. The ‘Sphere is basically the flip side of feminism. You’re both not grounded. Which is a point Walsh keeps making if you actually read her. I say Walsh’s point that men have a 5 year advantage tops in the SMV is legit. If women would do wise in locking down a husband by 27, men would do wise in locking down a better woman by 32.

  32. “Jack”,

    That is a fairly reasonable comment.

    First, SW advocates that women begin searching *in earnest* for a husband right after college. She argues that the studies indicate that 27-30 is the ideal age for long term marriages that are successful. She also argues that college education correlates highly with lower divorce, lower infidelity and longer marriages. She is telling women to avoid cads, find the betas that will make a good living and make a good man and marry him early. Why on earth is the Manosphere giving her shit for that? Her message is essentially a secular version of the Trad message; ie Dalrock and company.

    I don’t find anything here to disagree with this, but there is a lot more that she says that I disagree vehemently with. You’ve captured a small percentage of the things she says and advocates for.

    Regarding age and SMV, I think the Manosphere *does* overstate the extent of a man’s value as he ages. Yes, a game aware man can sleep with younger women.

    It’s not just Game, but other factors as well

    But so can any decent looking woman in her 30s and 40s. A 38 year old PUA can approach hundreds of young girls and run his game and get laid. A good looking 38 year old woman can put on a mini skirt and high heels and walk in any bar and “pull” a younger man on basically any night she wants.

    Now this part is silly because it ignores the different priorities of the sexes. “Getting laid” is not equal levels of difficulty for a 38-year old man versus 38-year old woman.

    Long term relationships are a human imperative.

    I actually agree with this. The question is on the path to get there. The optimal path for many guys might be different.

  33. And let me add this “Jack”, perhaps one of my biggest beefs is that Walsh demonizes all sorts of thoughts, drives, that are basically part of any normal guy, at least the guys I grew up, hung out with. She basically says that “good” guys think X, Y, Z. In her world, the only good guys are some sort of neutered pet.

  34. @Morpheus

    To Susan Walsh’s concept of “good guys” — there are not real good guys, at our base selves, we are the horn-dogs we are made out to be. Now, that’s if you only take SEX as the factor to judge Men against. There are few Men, that if presented with “no harm, no foul” sex from someone that they are attractive to, who would turn it down. Even those devoted, bible banging Christian types would “sin in their hearts” if not in real life. (and btw, don’t get too butt hurt, everyone is tested).

    That being said, another aspect of being true to your masculine is living “On Purpose” or “on Mission” – which has nothing to do with this sex.

    So, all this crap about SMP/SMV is irrelevant if the Man is not living his Mission – pussy (in my opinion) is a distraction, a recreation, some down time – a Man’s real life is something else.

    But then again, have to admit, I made it my mission to drink tonight – so, my thinking may be a bit unfocused…….Live, Learn Lead.

  35. Minter, you’re nothing compared to Osho, for having a different view. He did it from day to day. One day Christ was King, the next just a stunted Jew that lacked any kind of rational thought.

    I think it is called living life.

  36. @Jack
    I also generally agree with what you’re saying, and what Susan has said on those topics. In fact, I’ve always been on the record as saying I essentially agree with the core aspects of what she’s pushing.

    The big difference here is that you’re being relatively reasonable and diplomatic, while she’s been relying on ad hominem and straw man attacks as of late… i.e. saying Han excuses & advocates sexual assault, saying that guys around here believe 38 year old guys should be pairing up with 18-21 year old girls when nobody has said anything of the sort, etc. Truly the stuff of political attack ads with no merit.

    My rule of thumb has always been: girls reach their peak at 18-25, and guys reach their peak at 28-35. Nothing scientific, but safely in the ballpark.

    And while you’re not likely to see upper 30s guys getting with early 20s girls that often, mid 30s guys with mid to upper 20s girls isn’t unreasonable at all.

  37. @Morpheus
    Throw in the fact that in Susan’s world, not only are men over 30 icky old guys… guys under 25 are all immature idiots.

    Comedy pyramid.

  38. My rule of thumb has always been: girls reach their peak at 18-25, and guys reach their peak at 28-35. Nothing scientific, but safely in the ballpark.

    And while you’re not likely to see upper 30s guys getting with early 20s girls that often, mid 30s guys with mid to upper 20s girls isn’t unreasonable at all.

    Jimmy,

    THIS. EXACTLY!

    I read this from you and thought of this quote:

    “Common sense is not so common.” * Voltaire

    Really, this is common sense to anyone who observes the world.

    While I am quoting Voltaire, here is another one that I think is appropriate given what we talk about

    “There are truths which are not for all men, nor for all times.”

  39. Jimmy,

    One thing I noticed, and I’m curious if your take is the same is there is a world of difference between a 21-22 year old and a 24-25 year old. For lack of a better description I think many girls turn into women and get a different perspective. I don’t think may 35-38 year old guys are going to pull 21-22 year olds unless he is flashing a ton of cash and they are party girl types, but I have no doubt 35-38 year old guys can pull 25 year olds, especially in urban settings. I think age difference is less relevant in big time urban settings like Chicago and NYC

  40. @Morpheus
    Yeah, I definitely see a change in attitude from a lot of girls a year or two out of school. While the 35/25 pairings might be pushing the outer region of realistic (while still possible), I do see 32/25 type pairings all the time.

    I’ve never lived in cities that big, so I really can’t comment on that specific environment. My guess is wider age gaps are probably even more common there.

    But for a specific example, here’s an episode I witnessed recently:

    A 31 year old buddy of mine with a few gray hairs pulled a short makeout and phone number from a college aged girl (I’d guess 21-22). As far as I know they’re going on a date sometime next week.

    She seemed fairly well adjusted and down to earth (about a 7, feminine, no apparent slut tells). He’s probably above average in looks, but nothing special. Probably wouldn’t stand out in a crowd.

    But he didn’t have to flash money or use any PUA type tricks, just used his natural game (which is very good, he’s just a an affable, decently dressed, young at heart kind of guy).

  41. One year ago on this election night in 2012, I posted a long comment into this blog that went viral.

    And I have another.

    Tonight I come to you with a different theme and a different vision.

    The Way Home.

    In 10 days, I go “home” and I have not been a home in well over 10 years.

    And it has been a tumultous 10 years.

    But I have finally found my way “home”.

    And I throw the gauntlet to the major writers of the manosphere to create an alternative to the present path that we are now on as men.

    The current path that we have laid out and detailed for men is that we create a belligerent and a bellicose sexual apartheid.

    And yes, this path is possibly the safest way for men to pass through their life and at some point down the road, it might lead to a forced understanding and new cooperation on the part of men and women.

    But we also risk carrying society off into a gender separation that may never end, that men and women continually remain at war for generations to come.

    For some men, this path will lead to a new and more freer definition of what the life of the postmodern man will entail. For others, this path will be involuntary and forced upon them. And for many, it will not be a productive and meaningful way for men to have spent their life, our own version of nihilistic “YOLO”.

    And I propose that the solution, the alternative is that we as men no longer react to women, react to the cultural voice that creates a society that despises us, that is misandric to us,

    that we lead as men,

    and that we show women ….

    The Way Home.

    We cannot go back to life as it was before the Feminist Revolution. And I assure you in the two years you will stand at the culmination of that Revolution and tell you right now that as thing stand today, that Hillary Clinton will be elected President of the United States and she has women and men position in key positions all over this country to strike quickly and totally to push that agenda forward by 20 years. And when that happens we may never have the opportunity to find any alternative for men other than the strident, belligerent, and bellicose Apartheid.

    So we must go forward.

    And so this moment, we should choose not a false sense of independence, not our capacity to survive and endure.

    But we, as men, need to lead the way to find Common Ground.

    And the basis of that common ground is the knowledge contained here on this site,

    Rational Male.

    And I speak directly to Rollo Tomassi to throw down a challenge to him.

    He is a Buddha and right now he is acting as a “Bud”. It is time for him grab the mantle of leadership in the movement and take it in a different, higher direction

    There are punitive and strident voices in our community that not only call for Sexual Apartheid, but punish any voice that acts or speaks about any other way of dealing with women other than Sexual Apartheid. The slur of “beta” is hurled, and those that violate this sin of “beta” are ostracized, banned, punished in some form of Stalinist purge.

    And I call on Rollo to resist those voices and to lead this effort to find this Common Ground, to assume the mantle of intellectual leadership.

    And to create a new idea

    Rational Female.

    I have found My Way Home because I am now what I was not before, a Rational Male, and I am able to find My Way Home because waiting for me at the front door of my new home is a

    Rational Female.

    And she is a Rational Female because of the experiential path that brought her to this blog.

    And that experience prepared to accept what she found her as epiphany, as explanation, and as body of knowledge to know her “her” and to understand her “her” and to know and understand those things that women truly want, those things truly will make a woman happy.

    What Rational Male did for us was two major things:

    1) It gave me a target to build attraction and it gave her a metric by which measure that which would attract her.

    2) It gave me a metric of those characteristics and behaviors in women to avoid and it gave her a target by which to understand the negativity of those characteristic and to avoid them.

    And I say that it is now your task, Rollo Tomassi, to reach out to women and help them to have what I have learned to call

    Intersubjectivity

    Let me introduce a concept.

    Radical Constructivism – ‘What is radical constructivism?

    “It is an unconventional approach to the problem of knowledge and knowing. It starts from the assumption that knowledge, no matter how it is defined, is in the heads of persons, and that the thinking subject has no alternative but to construct what he or she knows on the basis of his or her own experience.

    What we make of experience constitutes the only world we consciously live in. It can be sorted into many kinds, such as things, self, others, and so on. But all kinds of experience are essentially subjective, and though I may find reasons to believe that my experience may not be unlike yours, I have no way of knowing that it is the same. The experience and interpretation of language are no exception.”

    p.1 – ‘Growing Up Constructivist’, in, ‘Radical Constructivism – A Way of Knowing and Learning’.

    What this says is our consciousness and thought is a function of our experience and we see and understand things as a basis of our experience.

    My supposition is that is the very core of the issue between men and women. The experience of both is so radically different, coupled with a different mode of brain wiring, that the conscious experience of men is entirely different than that of women. And this has been written about on this blog.

    The recent example was that of Solipsim and the SMV curve. It is our experience as men that we find women to be self centered and so we buy into the idea of Solipsim. One of the key examples is how she turns the conversation into herself. You say XYZ and she says “I …”.

    Likewise they react to the SMV curve in an manner that is entirely different than men. And her reaction is that, to her, at least to the women reacting, her experience is entirely different.

    And Radical Constructivism states her consciousness, even her understanding of words, is a function of her interpretation of phenomenon, of experiences, via her conscious ability to understand them as a function of her experience with them.

    In order to have compatibility then you must have what Ernst von Glasersfeld calls

    Intersubjectivity.

    Now I have been slammed as hypocritical and “beta” for taking the path I have taken and I say to you that I am neither.

    At the time that I wrote the things that I have written calling for Separatist Gender Apartheid, I saw no way forward given the experiences I have had and what I viewed to the be state of modern women. But I have had a different experience. And now I can see a different possibility.

    But I cannot underestimate the possibilities and the importance of

    The Rational Woman

    in finding that intersubjectivity to provides that intuitive understanding to both parties involved in a relationship.

    And quite frankly it all caught me by surprise. But it has happened and it is almost quantifiable as to why it happened and I can trace it all back to what I learned on Rational Male, as well as what she learned.

    And as for being beta, I am not. At least not in the principles laid out on Rational Male.

    Let me give you analogy.

    When Andrew Luck was a senior at Stanford, on Oct 23, 2011 he was one of the leaders in the competition for the Heisman Trophy. He played a game against Washington, and Stanford won the game 65-21.

    But Andrew Luck had passing stats of 165 yards, 16-21. This performance stalled his Heisman campaign. Robert Griffin, who was not even mentioned as a potential candidate began to move into the forefront in consciousness, and ended up winning the Heisman. To the outside observer, Luck did not have a good game on the basis of the stats. But if you read the play by play and the final stats, you could see that the running backs went for 365 yards, often 50 yard at a pop, multiple times. And you could see that Stanford was most efficent, scoring 65 points with only 26 first downs and a 10 yard per carry average for the running game.

    Stanford coach David Shaw pulled Luck from the game because the lead compelled him to protect his star quarterback from injury. And later he apologized to Luck for the game plan and for pulling him out and reducing his stats.

    Luck said, “I have no idea what you are talking about. I just played my best game ever. I was able to read the defensive alignment before the snap and check off into a play, then able to read the run checks and get the ball to the backs.”

    If you were a trained professional scout and you watched the game, someone who could see the defensive alignments, and knew what would work best against them, and you saw the game Luck played, the choices he made, the poise he showed, the execution, you would have graded him high. And he was. For Indianapolis, who had the first draft pick in the upcoming NFL draft, there was never any other choice and they literally gave away one of the best quarterbacks ever to play the game to clear the room to draft Andrew Luck.

    And I am saying to you that I am literally playing my best game ever. That with the knowledge I have gained from Rational Male, and also with info from Chauteau Heartiste, from literally the “first snap” that my exexution has been near flawless. That I “read defenses” and checked off into the best play, and my “run checks” have been excellent to both build attraction and to maintain it.

    And I repeat that on the flip side, she had a metric by which to judge me, and she also had a target of the behavior by which I was judging her. And she got this metric from Rational Male.

    Now, the key for women is that it has a compensation.

    As Kate spoke of her path to this awareness, it took her through disappointments and disillusionments in realtionships. And a study path that went through classically female things, “How to breakup”, to a group with the guy that wrote “Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars”, to a dating coach that teaches women not to be so picky, that she should “judge your relationship, not your partner”, various female relationship forums, and finally to the Attraction Forums. This lead to some mention of Heartiste.

    And her experiential preparation, of listening to those women complain about their beta men, cry about their alphas, of intuitively understanding the idea of “alpha mining”, of intuively understanding “hypergamy”, of her own exposure to betas, her own treatment at the hands of alphas, lead her to be prepared for the brutal assault of Heartiste, and to react not with defensiveness and rejection, but as epiphany.

    And this lead her to Rational Male and to receive the information disseminated on this site not as attack, but as opportunity, not as insult, but as coaching.

    And her most profound statement is “You might think is as Hamster, but had I not suffered the disappointments and heartache from possibly chasing that which was impractical or impossible, I would not have gone down this process, and I would not be here today. And possibly doomed to the same mistakes of the past leading to subsequent unhappiness. I know understand what constitutes the possiblity of happiness.”

    And that is the compensation for women.

    We recognize that feminism benefits 7-10% of the women while throwing the other 90% under the bus. The top 10% of attractive women benefit and the top 10% of women that wish a career first before any other life mission also benefit.

    Yet there are those that learn too late that the culture sells them down the river.

    But a bellicose and belligerent opposition that does not offer what should seen as an viable alternative in life, at home, at work, sexually, socially to woman will always be met with strong opposition.

    The manosphere is a journey. To those of you that view this essay as pussy, as beta, as a renouncement of current ideology, that condemn the possibility of a compromise, of a new cooperation, well, you lack the experiences to view it differently.

    I tell you that there is an alternative to the path that we are one.

    And that is intersubjectivity by creating …

    The Rational Woman.

    Rollo, you know I am right. You look at your own life, what should matter to men, and you can see the long term results of the path that we are on.

    You can do this. You can be bigger. Your contribution so far has been huge.

    It is time to lead.

    I am going Home. I am going to put up Christmas lights. We are going to have a fabulous Thanksgiving.

    And I wish all of you Christmas lights in your future.

    And that you all find

    The Way Home.

  42. I can only speak from experience….I was 34 when I got married, my wife was 27…of course, the problem is that the enlightened 26 year old becomes a disillusioned 44/45 year old (especially if they are a SAHM) that starts seeing their “mommy” world change as the kids start pulling away and growing up.

    Around here, there is not as much talk about that cycle for woman, Men and the changing dynamics in their marriage/relationship. There are a bunch of Men swimming in a sea of confusion in their late 40’s and early 50’s – wondering how they now have something called an ex-wife in their lives and supporting a family they no longer have daily contact with.

    My point is this…we can talk about the SMP/SMV all day long – but to some out in the interwebs, it’s just theory that has limited value in their day to day lives UNTIL they start to become aware of the “way the world really works” and why their lives didn’t quite play out like they had envisioned.

    Live, Learn, Lead.

  43. A little off-topic, but how you do guys see the phenomenon of Japan’s herbivore men: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men. Don’t you think that all feminist countries are in for the same phenomenon, taking into account the influence of pornography (a byproduct of feminine intrassexual competition and freedom), the very high feminine standards, male shaming, the demise of males and female supremacy, roles inversion, etc.?

  44. @Jack, oh I have no doubt that Aunt Giggles will eventually come around to accepting my SMV Graph as an honest observation of SMP dynamism and after a few months create a more or less identical graph of her own and tell her readers she conceived and endorsed it all along – just as she’s done with my concepts of hypergamy and feminine solipsism.

    She railed against those ideas after I wrote about them, waited about 6 months and then wrote posts on how she not only accepted them, but originated them.

    If you look at the OK Cupid graph she sites, it’s awfully close to the graph I created. What does that tell you? My observations must not be too far off. Not that the OK Cupid (or any dating site) stats are the benchmark for anything, but if you compare my graph to the stats provided at iconicmen.com the distribution, again, follows my graph.

    What’s in contention isn’t the distribution of points or SMV evaluation, it’s the message I’m sending by making men aware of it. If I show men that their SMV will put them in a better position to vet women (for monogamy, STRs, LTRs or anything else) when they reach 35 this reduces women’s capacity to keep the men they hope will be dutifully waiting for them at 29 in the dark about how their sexual strategy works.

    The simple fact of the matter is that the 27-30 y.o. woman looking to dubiously cash out of the SMP isn’t looking to a 22 y.o. sandwich artist as a marriage prospect – she’s looking for the 34-38 y.o. Man with enough affluence, maturity and status to be considered “her equal” (which is yet another feminine social convention intended to make men believe that a 30 y.o. woman is the SMV ‘equal’ of a man in his SMV peak potential years) and provider her with long term security.

    As I wrote in The Mature Man:

    It’s not a man’s physical age so much as what the age represents (or is perceived to) – maturity, accomplishment, better provisioning capacity, status, etc. Do ALL men actually realize these to their satisfaction by this time? Of course not, but it’s the perception that they SHOULD have actualized this that is the attractant in comparison to younger guys who haven’t, nor would really be expected to. Mature Men represent this perception of assumed accomplishment and security – exactly what women are looking for in a phase of life where their sexual marketability declines and their need for long term provisioning becomes more urgent.

    If I tell the Nice 22 y.o. sandwich artist he needs to be aware of this when he gets to be 30+ and to plan accordingly it defeats the feminine pluralistic sexual strategy and makes him an educated buyer. THAT’S what’s pissing off Aunt Giggles, I’m enlightening the Beta chumps to all this and it puts her in a tizzy. My spelling this out makes men the sexual selectors (or at least more knowledgable ones) and it’s Men’s frames and Men’s conditions that provisioning-necessitous 27-30 y.o. women must qualify themselves for.

  45. I think the core here is a Feminist legal system that punishes the fuck out of men if their wife gets bored one day. Finding happiness as a man is harder than ever: women don’t want to get married when men do, and when they do want to get married it comes with an absurd list of requirements — or the woman is used up. Fight the corporate ladder? Buy a house — in this economy? For what? The chance to be ripped apart by the legal system?

    Rollo et al have shown us how these systems came to be and how to dance around them, but we’re still just dancing around misandrist obstacles.

    I can see a lot of ways in which society could change; where couples could rotate more often, where changing partners several times through one’s life is considered normal. But that’s because I’m human and have a great imagination. Back in the real world, culture is waiting for me to slip up so that it can rush in and strip-mine my assets.

  46. Interesting discussion between Morpheus, Jimmy and “Jack”.

    I similarly have been on record as supporting Susan’s core arguments: Stop slutting around; there are good reasons for finding a good man early; find a good beta man and settle down early.

    Where she’s gone off the rails lately is in suggesting that a woman retains most of her value well into her 30s and will still be able to marry as well in her 30s as she could have in her 20s. The reasons why that’s just not true at all have been explained ad nauseam ad infinitum here and everywhere. It’s almost axiomatic. Will she marry? Probably. Could she have done as well, and as happily, at 35 as she could at 25? Probably not. Can a woman retain most of her value into her 40s and even her 50s? A few do; most don’t. I think most women shouldn’t take that chance.

    I also disagree with the notion Susan seems to have that dating “ethics” and “morals” apply, and should apply, only to men. Susan seems to believe that only men have an obligation to be honest and above-board in dating and sexual relationships. As Morpheus pointed out, Susan seems to advocate a school of thought that a man pursuing his interests, on his timetable, on his terms, is somehow “unethical” and “immoral”. That’s unworkable, because men and women are always at cross-purposes, with men seeking sex with as little investment as possible; and women seeking as much commitment as possible as fast as possible from the highest status man she can get.

    There’s a dance involved. If there’s to be an enforceable “moral” code, it has to apply to both parties; not just the man. We can’t have a system in which women can deploy any means necessary to get their imperatives met while men are bound and hamstrung by unilateral “ethics” and “morals”; which of course means his interests must be subordinated to hers.

  47. Two of my favorites “ethics” lessons from over there:

    In order for men to remain “ethical” they have to clearly state their intentions up front… otherwise they’re evil dark triad cads.

    Men are also required to divulge any information about prior marriages, children, etc. up front.

    But women are in no way obligated to share any information on their sexual history, and men who wish to know about it are creepy losers.

    Another one:

    Women who are virgins are treated unfairly in today’s world, and don’t get the respect they deserve.

    But men who value a woman’s virginity are creepy losers.

  48. Jimmy:

    I thought another interesting ethical position was Susan’s exemplar description of, while single and before she met her husband, pity-fucking a guy whom she knew to be engaged to another woman. Susan explained that she had no ethical responsibility to abstain from sex with the engaged man because he, not she, was attached and/or engaged. If there were any ethical breach, it was on the man, not on her. This was because he, not she, was engaged.

    I can’t agree with that. I can’t agree with Susan’s stated position that an unattached woman had no ethical or moral duty under those particular circumstances to refrain from intermeddling into a committed relationship. This is because I believe an ethical code applies to both men and women in such situations – the man is bound not to have sex with a woman other than his betrothed; the woman is bound not to have sex with a man betrothed to another. But if the woman is free from ethical constraints, who are we to say that a man should not also be free from those constraints? And when we go down that path, that’s where we get ourselves into relationship trouble.

    If we are going to observe ethics, they apply to everyone, not just men.

  49. Much of the advice at HUS for young women is actually pretty good, as far as it goes. But it’s surrounded by a dogmatic and totalitarian hostility to anything deviating from the alpha mare’s dictates (at that moment, though, as we see, that is subject to change whenever circumstance “demands” or she simply wants to).

    And there is far too much focus on cad shaming and not enough on woman-ing up and taking responsibility. Not enough focus on restraining hypergamy and entitlement and that the main reason for pump and dumps isn’t low female self esteem but, rather, grasping too far–writing a check with her SMV that her MMV can’t cash.

    She tells women to start looking out of college–good.

    Avoid players and cads–good, though see my point above about shifting too much responsibility to such men when it’s actually women that are creating the demand for them.

    Not enough focus on how to lose weight and look one’s best–bad but there are other resources out there for that.

    Some “girl game” focus on women being more assertive and flirty–good.

    Where it gets really bad is how she treated men. Calling desiderius a pedophile and shaming other men who simply stated that they felt involuntary attraction for teens (though they didn’t act on it and clamped it down quickly).

    The ethical double standards Jimmy mentioned–bad.

    Reasonable analysis that disagree with her positions were usually met with hostility–very bad.

    Once the reboot happened and most men, especially of the redder persuasion, stopped commenting, continuing to rage against the sphere and take cheap shots and outright lie about former commenters–very bad, and not conducive to the supposed tone and mission.

    Perhaps, over time, she and they will tone it down a bit and they can focus on girl game and make some progress; or maybe she really is a drama queen and will keep sniping.

  50. deti, I agree it is absurd to say she has no moral or ethical responsibility to not mercy fuck an engaged man. Now, I’d put 95% or 97% of that on him but if she had said no, the mercy fuck wouldn’t have happened and he would have remained merely a “sinner” of intention rather than commission.

  51. “But men who value a woman’s virginity are creepy losers.”
    Real men prefer who women who enjoy relationships of varying lengths, including women who have had several one night stands, but have learned their lessons.

    It’s maddening. One of their commenters suggested that men change around the age of 26. Yes. I know this because I am 26 and have many male friends that are 26.
    Back in college they really weren’t interested in virgins and were a little put-off because they didn’t want a “clinger” and were afraid of blood.
    Basically, they wanted to “burn through” a few women before settling on a wife (another phrase used in that thread).

    now that they are older?
    VIRGIN
    VIRGIN
    VIRGIN

    They are also far more invested in the idea of marriage/family/house/etc, and less interested in the clubbing scene.

    At least among my now-interested-in-marrying group, female virgins are highly respected. That wasn’t the case 3 or 4 years ago, because they weren’t interested in marriage.

    This goes back into the discussion about College LTRs. THEY ARE NOT REAL RELATIONSHIPS. LTR in general is a term that means absolutely fucking nothing.
    That’s why he would prefer that you not be a virgin when he’s younger, BECAUSE HE DOES NOT WANT TO COMMIT TO YOU. He wants to retain an exit option. He doesn’t see you as a marriage prospect. He is going to take what he wants out of the relationship and then “burn” you before going off to marry his REAL wife.

  52. >> How do you account for the later carousel riders at ages say 35-45? I have seen many more of these lately.

    Simple. They are smart enough to notice that they’re not gonna get a ring. So they can play with cats, or they can play with dicks.

  53. Rollo,

    You’ve touched upon something I’ve felt for awhile but
    couldn’t describe–you gave it a name.

    My own personal dread is how to have a successful
    relationship with a woman or women in lieu of agendas, Hypergamy, family
    court, divorce rates, etc. Enter, competition anxiety.

    As a man, as long as I: stay healthy and fit, minimize bad behaviors
    such as laziness and losing my shit over petty things, set and
    accomplish personal goals, command a decent income or better, I can
    have it all.

    Here are my options: 1) girls in their 20’s who think most guys
    their age lack direction and substance 2) women in their 30’s
    eager to land an established man 4) women in their 40’s to 50’s on
    their eat, pray, love sojourns to “find themselves” and 5) all the
    women in between in unhappy relationships or bored and longing for
    adventure or an exit. Not all of these are ideal but they are
    options.

    Increasing my own SMV puts me steps above the average Joe who is
    most likely not Game-aware and forging his own path in life.

    In the 50’s there was an interesting dynamic between men & women.
    Women aspired to be good, submissive housewives in order to land a
    successful man. If Sally acted (or was) slutty or un-feminine she would be ostracized and no man would want her. She was a loser. Timmy aspired to have a high income and respectable job. He could only pair-bond with Sally who would give up the goods, be loyal, kind and a good mother for him if he had good income and character. So, slutty woman = no financial security/house/kids etc. Loser man = no sex, respect, family, etc. It worked. Controls for each partner reinforced by societal expectations and shaming. Religion accomplished similar control by group membership under an ideology and used shaming for enforcement. Obviously not everything was perfect in the 50’s.

    So if a woman gets too comfortable and the “chase” ends, she becomes
    complacent and either settles into a good role and finds balance or
    becomes miserable and causes relationship disharmony. Keeping her
    competing by not focusing your life around her, being true to your life
    ambitions and occasionally provoke interest from other women. She
    stays competitive for you since you are competitive for great things.
    Hypergamy with a saddle.

    I’ve known very attractive men who would freeze when faced with
    talking to women. Furthermore I knew women who left successful men
    who couldn’t hold their interest. Keeping my knowledge of female psych, behavioral psych and Game tactics polished.

    Nothing is without sacrifice.

    Change is nature. When the shitstorm that is ‘today’ concludes and the dust settles, the social, political and sexual landscape will look different. Whether it works or not…”Time will tell” as Bob Marley says.

  54. @Strauman: Your answer is to not commit to one woman. Always have a backup. If you don’t have a backup, just flirt a lot with other women. I’m a married man so I can’t have other women. What I do is flirt with other women, talk with them a while, get them interested in me and then introduce them to my wife. Trust me, after getting introduced to some of my new female friends, my wife knows that I can pull other women. Hypergamy doesn’t bother me a bit.

  55. What’s wrong with being 38 and having a 22 year old girlfriend? I’m 23 and date girls my age. My buddy is 38 and his girlfriend is 23. Their a sweet couple. I want to settle down when I’m 35-40 with a 18-23 year old. I live in central europe, so, it is more common. But I think this is natural.

  56. Minter is such a dork.

    He’s all I’m married now haha.

    Rational Woman, well now that is funny.

    Judgement proof with nowhere else to go so of course you did whuppty friggin doo.

    Too much free time so he rewrote John Galt’s farewell speech from Atlas Shrugged.

  57. >> if the median age for men to marry ever hits 30, the marriage rate will plummet quickly.

    which, by itself, doesn’t really help our position. The only thing that will help us, is turning around the tax-men-to-support-single-moms fiesta.

    Realistically speaking, the only way for THAT to take place is invisibly. IE,
    hyper-inflation, with the men dropping out of the “official” economy.

    3/4 of the Cathedral is devoted to anesthetizing MEN into keep slaving away in the coal mines, and NOT “Go Galt”.

    Miley Cyrus was only ==partially== created to train women how to behave. The rest of the invention was to convince young men that she’s “hot”, and worth desiring. Am I really the only one who thinks that her actual looks are average, at best?

    That is the next battle. Convincing western men to become herbivores.

  58. Minter is a Welfare Mom. He got married to get himself out of debt and out of his sister’s spare bedroom. His new father-in-law threw a lot of money at him.

    More power to him.

    He’s still dull-witted enough to mentally-masturbate on the internet, as opposed to start building a harem.

  59. Getting divorced is not as hard or expensive as you might think. You just have to prepare for it.

    In a nutshell, this is what I did: I bought a second house together with my ex-wife. I convinced her we should buy it as an investment. I said I’d put in the down payment, but that I was tapped out on my paycheck, so it would help us plan financially if we just had the mortgage deducted from her paycheck. It was a struggle to get her to agree to that, but it was something I had to have to make my plan work, so I stuck to it until she agreed.

    I pretended to want to live in the new house for a while so I could do some remodeling on the “old” house. (I should point out that one thing that helped me with this is that I bought the “old” house before we got married, so it was in my name – not that this matters all that much in divorce). I did actually start a project on the old house. Nothing too expensive but something that looked like it would take some time. Over a period of about 2 weeks, I started going there every night to “work” on the “remodeling project.” I’d do a little bit of work, but then hang out and watch TV. Then I’d go to the new house to sleep. I kept asking my ex-wife for advice on what she wanted, what colors, etc. in the “old” house remodel.

    Then, after about a month of that, I started spending some nights in the old house on the weekends. After that, over a period of about 2 months, I got down first to 4 nights with my ex-wife in the new house, then 2 nights, then 1 night, then 0 nights. Then I changed the locks on the old house and I was gone.

    She freaked, of course. But I got that mean bitch out of my life. I got her established in a house (not as nice as my “old” house) as if it was her choice. She moved out on me! Note that I made sure to NEVER, EVER, EVER discuss the situation over e-mail. She sent me e-mails on the topic on occasion, but I would call her, not e-mail her back.

    The divorce was not easy, because I had a lot of assets in my name from investments I made before we got married. But, in the end, all I gave up was the money I put into the down payment for the “new” house, plus about 10% of my 401k.

    This may sound horrible, but it was something I had to do. I took that red pill (without knowing about the red pill at the time). I got sick of her abusiveness. I got sick of her threatening to call the police when she was angry. I got sick of her anger generally. I just had enough. But I knew that I was facing the divorce industry and potentially family courts in a blue state. So, it was either get it done in a somewhat slippery way, and avoid wasting perhaps over $200k in legal fees. Or, do it the even harder way, waste a large part of my life, and make attorneys more wealthy. Plus, I wanted to make sure I could keep living in my “old” house. I bought that house before I got married and I liked living there.

    Point is: If you make a plan and stick to it, you can take the red pill, get the hell out, and end up much happier. You can do it, with some planning and work, without loosing your shirt. I know, because I did it.

    My ex-wife and I did not have kids. But suspect you can come up with some sort of variation of this, or your own plan entirely, even with kids. The most important aspect of getting this done is to make it look like the woman made all the choices.

  60. I love this post a lot, as it really shades light as to why so many women of my age (I am 34 now) suddenly act so nice to me and want my company (after having given away all their chastity to unscrupulous asholes), while in my twenties, the same women wouldn’t see me in their mental radar.

    I used to be a typical beta for most of my young ages, and passed many golden opportunities that I could have capitalized. But after swallowing my red pill about a few months ago, my eyes are now wide open. My betatude is a thing of the past now, and I can clearly see the codes of the feminine matrix. Information such as this one is very empowering to men in general, as it gives us the leverage and the mean to trade our commitment to women in a most profitable way. Easy who laugh last!

  61. I don’t like that graph. I feel like there are a few ‘knee’ events that are not adequately captured by just superimposing two bell curves around different points on one another. It does not have a ‘knee’ for the wall, or the mini-wall at 30. I think a woman’s SMV is probably pretty stable in between ‘knee’ events, with peaking happening in the 18-23 range, followed by a slight decline, then a knee, then stability, then another knee at 42ish.

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  64. I’m a 29 year old woman, very pretty and well educated, and I definitely feel a tiny bit of stress regarding building a family. It must not take many more years for me to find someone, with whom I can have kids and companionship. Kids are more of a bonus and the reason why it should not take too long, but the most important thing is the mental and emotional closeness that comes with a good and healthy relationship. I was never consciously a “party girl”, but for sure I rejected boys down whom I now feel that maybe should I have given a second chance. I also tried being together with guys, but it didn’t work out because I constantly felt uneasy and wondering if they were right for me. And whenever I fell in love, feelings were not mutual. But your decisions, deemed right or wrong by you at some later point, are always based on your current knowledge about yourself, life and others at the time you made them. Thus there is no room for, or point, in regret.

    With time, I slowly and not painlessly learnt a lot of new lessons about myself and communication. I think this goes for both men and women, and a lot of things happen with people between the age of 25 and 35, mostly on the inside. You develop more self confidence, a clearer direction in life, a better ability to listen, take in, take care of and see other people. Most importantly, I learnt that a good, loving relationship doesn’t just happen, or come to you automatically. It more often than not, requires a lot of work regardless of whether you are 22 or 52. The surface bothers me less. Men are turning their heads and looking at me, in a way that I didn’t even notice at 22, and I do realize that it’s something that will eventually end (sadly ;-)). However, there are no signs of such a thing happening yet, rather the opposite. But the important thing for me is finding my mate, with whom I can live happily, and I think my chances of doing that has increased with my life experience and understanding of myself and other people. Gradually I have learnt what to look for, from my mistakes and previous relationships, to communicate instead of running away, and to recognize what qualities are truly important in a partner. Since I got myself an education and a wellpaid job (those things take time!), I’ll also be able live on equal financial terms with my future husband, in case I get married. If he temporarily loses his job I’ll be able to provide for the whole family, and vice versa (which means great financial security), and in the sad case of a divorce I would at least be able to provide for myself and our kids.

  65. I read those articles and they are definitely interesting, in that the physically most attractive periods do differ for men and women, at least for me the most attractive men are generally in their 30’s, approaching 40. Women are ultimately limited by their ability to bear children, and all of us women know this. So, in case we are sure that we want kids, we better start thinking about it before time is up, otherwise not. 🙂

    However, these graphs seem exaggerated in a way that kind of bothers me. Maybe it’s the fact that they do not show exactly what is specified – an absolute measure of a woman’s physical attractiveness (as if a number of guys had looked at pictures of women of different ages and measured each one of them on a scale from let’s say 0 to 100), but rather a measure of how many men would (in their imagination) rather date a 23-yearold rather than a 35 yearold. The difference is subtle, but it does exist.

    For example, there may be other reasons for dating a 20-year old than a 30-year old. The former are generally perceived as easier targets for quick satisfaction (in popular culture) and make their elder lovers (alphas?) feel young, which may in itself be a sexual trigger rather than their actual physical appearance. So the reason for their high SMV may be that they are regarded girlfriend material by their peers, and easy punani by the elder guys (who have absolutely no intention of marrying them, instead they avoid any risk of a relationship by picking someone on the same level as themselves). Whereas women in their 30’s may not be so interesting to the so called alphas who run for young cuties, but still interesting those of their peers who genuinely wish to settle for a family themselves. In my experience, young men are seldom ready to do that before approaching 30, themselves.

    In fact, from my experience of guys – I seriously can’t imagine that any of my male peers would be deeply physically attracted to a 25 yearold and not to her 35-yearold correspondence. Rather on the contrary since elder girls are generally more experienced and interested in sex (when I was 22, I was really interested in this guy of 28 and hit on him, until this other girl snatched him in front of my eyes. She was 32, and frankly not even as goodlooking as I was. I’m not bitter at all. ;-)) It works the same way for me as a woman – if I wanted sex with a 38 yearold, I probably would have wanted sex with him when he was 28 too.

  66. To me personally, the stress of building a family rather arises from 2 things:

    1. The gradually developed insight that my emotional and relationship strategy needs a change, since it has not generated the type of committed and close relationship I want so far (7+ years). My physical appearance is rather secondary, as long as I take good care of my body. I know that there will always be men who are physically attractive *enough* for me, also of equal “status” as myself, who would want a good night in bed and maybe spend the rest of their lives with me. But obviously that won’t happen unless I let it happen. Another important thing I learnt over the years is that attraction is not only plain physical and mental attraction, but also sexual compatibility which sometimes pops up where you didn’t expect it to. 😉

    2. If I want kids, I’d better start thinking about it soon. 🙂

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