Back in February I had an interesting exchange with commenter TuffLove. The conversation focused on his recent singleness due to his wife of 20-some years feeling the call of the Alpha and decided cheat on him, later divorce him and then take up with an even more Beta fellow not long after her ‘fling’ (his story). You can read the whole exchange here if you like, but what TuffLove describes is a textbook example of the Alpha re-interest impulse that defines the Development and Redevelopment/Reinsurance phases I outlined in the Preventative Medicine Series.
Not to rub salt in the wound, but you and your ex’s story is a cliché now. It’s the “making up for missing out” story. Woman marries early, cashes her chips in before she knows better, lives vicariously through her single girlfriends until such time that the “Alpha” she knew at 20 is the hapless Beta she’s saddled with at 39.
Divorce porn media convinces her to bail out and get with the Alpha she’s always missed for all that time. She did everything in reverse – Beta comfort and dependability through her party years, to be traded for Alpha excitement before it’s too late.
I was inspired to sift back through my comments for this conversation, because I was also made aware of a new example of both this phase’s dynamic and the divorce-porn industry that will inevitably find some very fertile soil to plant itself in.
This example comes to us courtesy of Robin Rinaldi, author of The Wild Oats Project. This book and the “experiment in cuckoldry” such as it was, centers on, you guessed it, a 40-something woman who abandons her marriage for one year to bang the random men she was prevented from fucking by being married to her dependable, unexciting Beta husband. Granted, the husband didn’t want children and this contention resulted in him getting a vasectomy – his only act of Alpha with her as far as I know. Her childlessness is of course her go-to victimization card she hopes will endear feminine sympathy for her taking matters into her own hands for a year.
The de rigueur rationalizations and appeals to womanly “self-discovery” are handed out like the M&Ms any Red Pill man will come to expect, but I’m drawing attention to this book because it has the potential to be the next step in the 50 Shades of Grey evolution of Open Hypergamy:
Get ready for “The Wild Oats Project.” And not just the book. Get ready for “The Wild Oats Project” phenomenon — the debates, the think pieces, the imitators and probably the movie. Get ready for orgasmic meditation and the Three Rules. Get ready for “My Clitoris Deals Solely in Truth” T-shirts.
On a social scale it seem like the next deductive next step – blend a justifiable Eat Pray Love narrative with the more visceral (yet unignorable) sexuality of 50 Shades and women will readily consume it. I expect there will be the same hamster spinnings of NAWALT and most women respect their marriage vows, but it still wont wash with the overwhelming ‘guilty pleasure’ popularity that 50 Shades exposed on a large scale.
Writers like Rinaldi and E.L. James have tapped into the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks anxiety rooted in women’s primal insecurity inherent in doubting their optimization of Hypergamy. If appealing to visceral sex sells products to men, appealing to the inherent ‘you-only-live-once’ insecurity of feminine Hypergamy sells to women – and women being the primary consumers in western society, sell it does.
Commenter jf12 related something Ballista posted on his blog recently:
Ballista asks, on his site, “why is divornography (divorce pornography) marketed exclusively to women? Why are there articles in women’s magazines and romance novels for women like Eat Pray Love that glamorize divorce, but nothing of the sort exists or is marketed to men? Why is there no male divorce porn, no stories of men divorcing their obese, aging harpy wives, liberating themselves from their marriage vows, and ending up living happily ever after banging large-breasted 21 year-old lingerie models?”
Can you imagine the uproar? Can you feel the Love yet?
Since the start of the sexual revolution there’s been a social undercurrent of excusable, justifiable comeuppance for any gender related imbalance women have been taught to believe that men are enjoying or benefitting from. Whatever male-specific indignation that would reflect negatively on men becomes a form of empowerment for women – particularly if that indignation facilitates men’s sexual strategy at the expense of women’s. Thus a woman taking a yearlong break from her marriage to bed as many men as she cares to indulge (fully expecting to come back to her dutiful Beta husband afterwards) is cast as an iconoclastic hero for casting off “patriarchal sexual repression.”
Furthermore, it’s only a small step to wipe the accountability of her actions off on the horrible man who wont cooperate by doing his duty to fulfill her sexual strategy. There is no more permanent a devotion to the male sexual strategy than to get a vasectomy and thus deny a woman the ultimate culmination of her own. If you ever want to experience just how close to livestock the Feminine Imperative considers men to be, just try getting a vasectomy before you’re married or without a wife’s explicit and written consent. Legally it’s easier to geld horses or neuter dogs.
It’s important to consider how the doubt over past hypergamous choices effects a mature woman. When a woman has passed through her Epiphany Phase and become a never-married woman into her late 30s the mindset becomes one of self-justification. This is similar to the Kate Bolick effect whereby a woman has very little choice but to live with her past intimate decisions and convert necessities into virtues. She embraces a ready-made empowerment narrative wherein she convinces herself that her choices were the bold, unconventional ones she needed in order to grow.
Next and most commonly is the woman who consolidated on a man’s commitment once she’d become less sexually competitive just prior to 30. I can’t be sure, but it’s likely that Rinaldi falls into this demo, the schedule more or less plays the same.
From Preventative Medicine IV:
Redevelopment / Reinsurance
The Redevelopment phase can either be a time of relational turmoil or one of a woman reconciling her hypergamous balance with the man she’s paired with.
The security side of this hypergamous balance has been established for her long term satisfaction and the Alpha reinterest begins to chafe at the ubiquitous certainty of that security. Bear in mind that the source of this certainty need not come from a provider male. There are a lot of eventualities to account for. It may come from a ‘never married’ woman’s capacity to provide it for herself, the financial support levied from a past husband(s) or father(s) of her children, government subsidies, family money, or any combination thereof.
In any event, while security may still be an important concern, the same security becomes stifling for her as she retrospectively contemplates the ‘excitement’ she used to enjoy with former, now contextually Alpha, lovers, or perhaps the “man her husband used to be”
The Soul-Mate Mistake
Vox had an astute observation about this phenomenon not too long ago:
Alpha Widowhood is a description of an observed behavior, not a cruel invention of the Game theoreticians meant to plague BETA husbands and give them sleepless nights:
“Steve has been with me for the past 50 years and Ron for 47. Neither is the man I am married to, nor have I seen or spoken to either since our love affairs ended in my 20s. All the same, there is no denying they have both messed with my marriage to Olly, the man who has been by my side for the past 40 years.
I found myself thinking about them both as I read recent research that suggested women who played the field before marriage are unhappier with their lot than those who entered matrimony virginal.
Angela Neustatter has often questioned what life would have been like had she married another manAngela Neustatter has often questioned what life would have been like had she married another man.”
I think it’s important to remember that an Alpha Widow doesn’t even necessarily need to have slept with a man she considered ‘Alpha’ from her past to feel the Alpha Widow effect:
Five minutes of alpha — even worse, five minutes of alpha rejection — can fuck with the heads of even the most desirable women. And continue fucking with them years later. In comparison — if the reports are to be believed — women who divorce beta schlubs after years of marriage pretty much forget them before the ink is dry on the papers.
Sometimes being an Alpha Widow means hypergamic ‘rumination’ over a better Alpha option a woman missed or was rejected by in her past in comparison to the guy she “settled on” for marriage. This is particularly significant if that guy was a woman’s Plan B husband. It’s not just the actual Alphas she banged back in the day, you’re competing with an imagined ideal and the more women are empowered and encouraged to feel secure in exploring their hypergamous options (i.e. correct their ‘soul mate’ mistake) the more you’ll read stories like this.
However, for all intents and purposes my instincts tell me Rinaldi falls into the “making up for missing out” demographic. On whole this demo of women can eventually become the worst self-inflicted Alpha Widows in their latter years. I let Rinaldi explain…
“I refuse to go to my grave with no children and only four lovers,” she declares. “If I can’t have one, I must have the other.”
If you’re wondering why that is the relevant trade-off, stop overthinking this. “The Wild Oats Project” is the year-long tale of how a self-described “good girl” in her early 40s moves out, posts a personal ad “seeking single men age 35-50 to help me explore my sexuality,” sleeps with roughly a dozen friends and strangers, and joins a sex commune, all from Monday to Friday, only to rejoin Scott on weekends so they can, you know, work on their marriage.
[…] One of her oldest friends calls her out. “How is sleeping with a lot of guys going to make you feel better about not having kids?” she asks. Rinaldi’s answer: “Sleeping with a lot of guys is going to make me feel better on my deathbed. I’m going to feel like I lived, like I didn’t spend my life in a box. If I had kids and grandkids around my deathbed, I wouldn’t need that. Kids are proof that you’ve lived.” It’s a bleak and disheartening rationale, as though women’s lives can achieve meaning only through motherhood or sex.
As I illustrated in Preventive Medicine, there’s a root insecurity inherent in women’s Hypergamy. From an immediate perspective this can manifest itself as a battery of women’s psychological and sociological filtering mechanisms for Hypergamous optimization with a man she’d just met, to the husband she’s been married to for 20 years. However, it’s vitally important for men, particularly married and LTR men, to understand that the confines of a committed relationship is never any insurance against Hypergamy in the long-term, and the rationalizations of that Hypergamy evolve as women mature.
Of course the first, best advice is the simplest “just never get married”, but even if you are a single man entering your 50s you will encounter women who’ve experienced (or never experienced) a crisis of Hypergamy and the incessant drive for Alpha optimization of it. If you are a younger man dealing with an older woman (why, I don’t know) you will likely encounter women like Rinaldi and women with similar mindsets as Robin Korth. It’s important to know what you are, or will be, dealing with.
March 17th, 2015 at 7:51 pm
Everything was fine with me until you came up with….
“Men’s idealistic concept of love is a buffer against women’s opportunistic concept of love. When that idealism is expressed from a Beta mindset women’s opportunism dominates him and it’s debilitating. When it’s expressed from an Alpha mindset it supersedes her opportunism to the relationship’s benefit.”
This to me is conceding beta thinking and I don’t buy it even if it is conceded in an “alpha” frame. It contradicts everything you seemed to be communicating previously and what I have experienced. Almost everything you wrote made sense to me and I respected until you made this statement, at which point, everything takes on the same old feminized conditioning as those before you.
March 17th, 2015 at 7:59 pm
What is the definition or essence of men’s idealistic love?
If he is in an alpha frame, what is idealistic about it?
It seems to me that idealism about love is a BP beta trait.
RP is reality based, alpha is about getting results in the real world; where is the idealism there?
March 17th, 2015 at 8:03 pm
Take with a grain of salt all truisms including this one.
Duplicity, paradox, absurdity are as close as we have come so far in all attempts to reduce any phenomenon to a first cause whether it be in physics, morality or pleasure. We cannot reform the whole without reforming all parts, thus leaving nothing to approve or denigrate.
We all speak with forked tongues…..always. And words cannot relate the full depth of experience. Therefore we cannot comprehensively tell ourselves or anyone else what we have sensed. Even if we could think rationally or sense intuitively a single truth behind paradoxes, we have no language with which assuredly to communicate such “facts.”
Perhaps this exchange can be attributed to those facts about words rather than a real difference.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:05 pm
That’s because you believe idealism = Beta, but I can give you countless examples of male idealism put to constructive and destructive Alpha purpose.
As I illustrated in the Blue Valentine example, men’s idealistic concept of love can be the worst debilitation in a man’s life when that idealistic nature is expressed from a supplicating Beta mentality. It will crush him when that idealism is all about a bill of goods he idealistically hopes a woman shares and will reciprocate with.
From an Alpha perspective that idealism is a necessary buffer against that same feminine opportunistic concept of love that would otherwise tear a Beta apart.
Look, I get it man, I understand your frustration. I know about your cancer and the Eligard injections 3 times a day and the low testosterone for you. I’m sure grasping this is difficult for you emotionally, I can’t fault you for it and I wont run you up the flagpole for it either.
Just understand, you’re not hopeless.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:14 pm
Look at TuffLove’s situation. Yes his idealistic concept of love has burned him, and yes he’s clinging to it still because he’s still coming to terms with women’s opportunistic concept. His predicament comes from his Beta conditioning having placed him into that subdominant hierarchy model and exploiting his idealism.
If he were in the conventional model, based in an Alpha mindset that idealistic concept becomes a net positive for him, in his frame, on his terms and with him as his mental point of origin.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:17 pm
I think if the only view and experience you have of idealistic love is from the perspective of being a Beta, you will assume it is a Beta trait or that it is always toxic. Without having been truly Alpha, there’s no way to understand how it could work out any other way.
I admit I have my doubts here, but I can see a few hazy ways it could work. I know I just won’t understand until I’m there myself, and I’m not there yet so I have to defer to the knowledge and experience of others.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:22 pm
Rollo,
I’m going to assume that you’re talking to NBTM because your fem attempt at small dick shaming is inappropriate, unbecoming of you and totally off base. Myself, I’m on testosterone replacement, my T is at the high end of normal for young men, and my muscularity and BF% is in the 99th percentile for men my age.
Unlike NBTM, I’m not attacking you, I’m trying to get clear on the concept. as Asshole said “Perhaps this exchange can be attributed to those facts about words rather than a real difference.”
IOW, I suspect the lack of understanding has to do with definitions of words, so I’m trying to get to the basics of what exactly are we talking about here.
I asked specifically about men’s idealism about love, not men’s idealism in general. You failed to address that.
Do you mean that an RP alpha is idealistic in love in that he has a vision of the greater purpose of raising a family and bringing up functional children for the next generation?
March 17th, 2015 at 8:25 pm
Sun, you didn’t answer the question either.
Your response looks like beta shaming.
Some of your posts have been wise and insightful. You can do better than this. Answer the fucking question.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:27 pm
I’ve also wondered about the possible moment of Rollo getting on a news/talk show. Been thinking about asking him if he’s considered what he’d do for his “kill the messenger” or at least “discredit the messenger” moment. I pictured some host or panel of two or three trying to force focus the discussion on the lack of some degree in some field. Or attacking what he does for a living as some indication of an inability to have any insight. But I know for sure the The Graph would come up.
But I’ve always been a little more concerned about somebody sampling, repackaging, and hijacking all that he’s talk about into another man-up hamster crack hit. Or if enough men take hold of this, that it’ll try to be claimed as this is what women have been trying to get men to do all along.
I’m sure Rollo has thought about it and he’s been thanked and congratulated not nearly enough. But it really is hard to describe the good he’s done because we can’t see the changes to potentially come. We can see some progress and changes in individuals due to their testimonies, but everybody can feel what could be the good done to a much larger number of people. I’ll say people instead of men because the affects do go beyond just men.
I can’t remember how I found his blog; it wasn’t even that long ago, But I didn’t start paying attention due to a specific problem like some may have but because it was one of the few places that I’ve come across where I could say “yeah, I was seeing the same thing too!”
And to think that the blog and books are in a way coming out of nowhere, and so on point. That it’s a product of somebody just making a decision to put all his thoughts out there. He’s a good example of how cool a thing the internet can be.
But anyway. To Deti’s comment about women wanting kids as a badge of achievement. Good point. And it’s fed by the media barrage of motherhood: the hardest job ever. Or any variation of mother’s as foundation of, backbone of, glue of….You may have seen somebody in a discussion on tv make a point of argument prefaced with the phrase “as a mother…” Thereby attempting to make any counterpoint or disagreement with the mothers point, a setup for implied condemnation of the sanctity of motherhood. How dare you.
So yes, women can seek that achievement into that heroic group just by having a child.
Even saw a docu on PBS last night about photographer Dorothea Lange and one of the commenters was talking the photos of the women took during the dust bowl. The photos were of mother’s at their run down houses. And she said that what the photos really mean or indicated was that it was the mothers that were the strength and glue that was keeping all the families in dire straights during the drought together.
So I thought that the photo of the mother at home meant that was keeping the family together, and not that it was a photo of a mother at home because the father was away from home trying to scratch out all he could in such dire times, keeping the family together?
March 17th, 2015 at 8:29 pm
“Look, I get it man, I understand your frustration. I know about your cancer and the Eligard injections 3 times a day and the low testosterone for you. I’m sure grasping this is difficult for you emotionally, I can’t fault you for it and I wont run you up the flagpole for it either.”
That was not me that is my uncle.
My problem is idealism…any idealism.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:34 pm
People believe what they want to believe…including me…and my uncle.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:35 pm
@Jack
I answered the fucking question with an admission of Socratic Ignorance. I know what I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s like to truly be and experience the world as Alpha nor do most of the guys here, otherwise we wouldn’t be here.
Beta shaming? I admit openly that I am a recovering Beta. Do not think that because I point something out as Beta that I am attempting to shame it. I am stating facts: you can’t know something you’ve not experienced.
I do know one thing though. I’m certain that women do need men’s idealistic love. It was not conjured out of the blue by the FI. It was shaped from what was already there in men. Women are unhappy these days despite being “empowered” and getting men to #LeanIn and choreplay. Why? Maybe it’s because they’re not getting the Alpha version of idealized love anymore. Maybe the Beta version just isn’t satisfying.
Until I’ve experienced it from an Alpha perspective, I just couldn’t tell you if that’s true. It’s certainly plausible though. To say an Alpha can’t be idealistic is wrong though; if you think you can have the kind of passion to be the Alpha that takes over the world (Alexander, Genghis Khan, etc) and not have some idealism in there, I think you’re sorely mistaken. You don’t do shit like try to take over the known world because you’re a realist. You do it because you’re an idealist. Taking over the known world to the extent those men did is not a realistic idea.
So I know idealism of some kinds can be Alpha as fuck.
Can idealistic love be one of those things? I couldn’t tell you that part. It’s not something I’ll rule out though.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:37 pm
Rinaldi is just the garden variety narcissist. Par for the course among women of her generation, really.
The screwing around, with men and women alike (she sowed her “bi” oats), is really just an expression of her fundamental immaturity. No reasonable person sees what she did as being a trade-off for not having kids. The totally blue pill drenched Washington Post even called her out on that. She basically threw a sexual tantrum in her mid-40s because she wasn’t having kids, even though she decided she wanted them very late. She acted out like a teenager having a tantrum, and the Post and it seems even her own friends called her out on it. So fair dinkum, really.
Her ex-husband (yes, she got divorced) remarried a younger, hotter model, and seems to have upgraded. Good for him. Lesson to us all: got a bitch like this on your hands? … work to upgrade. \
She herself remarried as well, to one of her lovers during that year — a man who was 5-7 years younger than she was (God only knows what his deal is … I mean she’s not THAT good looking, mate, and if you have your act together at 38 you should not be with a 44 year old), and is now 49. The events of the book happened 5 years ago. The current pics are of her at 49. I wonder what she looked like before all the cock happened, when she was 44. But there are some wedding pics floating around the internet from when she was 26, and she was nice looking then, in 1992.
The whole thing is just ratcheting up on the narcissism. The take away for men is the obvious caution — be aware, don’t be in a situation like this and if you are, land on your feet with an upgrade like her ex husband did.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:44 pm
The reason it is called ideal is because it does not exist. It will never exist.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:45 pm
@The Diplomat
You need to see Kiss The Sky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_the_Sky_(film)
It’s like your first plot but with two friends who fall for the same woman in a three-way. Very redpill truths about women.
March 17th, 2015 at 9:06 pm
Living in a college town with an above average population of young women, say 18 – 25, is not representative of America – outside of these college towns, you’re not going to see these concentrated hordes of younger, more attractive women milling about where I think these red pill “theorists” live and derive their theories on female behavior.
Ah, tony. Always the denialist.
Remember this: two of the leading red pill/Game bloggers in the manosphere — Roosh and Roissy/Heartiste — are guys in the DC area. Not a college town. DC. They are talking about girls in their 20s and early 30s, not girls who are 19. You could, of course, FUCKING READ THAT in what they write, but, no, you have to come along and peddle your nonsense, which doesn’t event match the facts of where these bloggers ARE.
Heck, even Rollo isn’t in a college town.
Grow up. Open your eyes. There is a lot of stuff you are not seeing.
March 17th, 2015 at 9:57 pm
“Rinaldi is just the garden variety narcissist. Par for the course among women of her generation, really.”
Spot on evaluation that’s consistent with post wall / muttons dressed as lambs all competing for ‘you go girl’ online attention.
From the article: “Rinaldi was 44 years old when she experimented with an open marriage. She placed the ad above on nerve.com looking for new lovers.”
Yet she drops in the line “Pulling on his pants after our intimate encounter in my Las Vegas hotel room, the cute 23-year-old I’d just picked up”
hmm, I really don’t think that would have happened. I bet she didn’t ‘pick up’ a cute 23 y/o. She would have just meet up with him from her ad.
Wow, how spontaneous and seductive is that…Yet she can’t help saying she ‘picked up’. That I take as a power thing for her. Hey look at me picking up 23 cuties – what a crock.
I think this is why it didn’t really have the life-changing CC adventure outcome she’d hoped for. Dating site hook ups doesn’t equate to real world feeling of being desired seduced and submitting to alpha cock. She simply fucked a bunch of betas that got a free lunch.
Rinaldi is just a true slut that fucked for kicks but is now going to cash in with this “book” of the back of 50 shades/EPL phenomenon.
(slow hand claps)
So in the end – nothing to see here; just another attention-whoring whore.
March 17th, 2015 at 10:06 pm
Asshole – “The reason it is called ideal is because it does not exist. It will never exist.”
I guessing you’re the asshole that scoffed at the invention of the wheel.
In 1900 the following did not exist:
Airplanes
Satelites
Anti-biotics
internet
Punk Rock
Abstract Expressionism
The four minute mile
None of those would exist today without the inspiration and aspiration motivated by idealism. Idealism is the realization that reality sucks coupled with the arrogance to believe it can be made better absent any evidence.
Idealism is what drives men to create. Properly tempered it allows for ultimate maximization within known constraints while holding out the possiblity of getting around those constraints.
March 17th, 2015 at 10:17 pm
@Asshole
“The reason it is called ideal is because it does not exist. It will never exist.“
It’s called idealism because it’s an ideal to aspire to and possibly achieve. The term you’re thinking of is “impossible”, and I see no evidence of that in Rollo’s statement.
@badpainter
“Idealism is the realization that reality sucks coupled with the arrogance to believe it can be made better absent any evidence.”
And if there’s one thing alphas are known for, it’s arrogance and audacity. The two ingredients required for idealism.
March 17th, 2015 at 10:39 pm
I would like to communicate my current thoughts concerning the concept of frame to help illustrate the concept of idealism and how that concept influences us. First it is excellent that “frame” was introduced here. Before, I had not thought in terms of frame, and I honestly appreciate its introduction. I find it very helpful because it facilitates the ability to consider things more objectively; realistically. “Reality” can be a painful bitch, but the rewards of knowing and applying the knowledge sensibly far exceed obscuring reality with idealism.
Webster’s defines idealism as:
1. belief in and pursuit of perfection as an attainable goal
2. aspiring to or living in accordance with high standards or principles
3. the philosophical belief that material things do not exist independently but only as constructions in the mind
I prefer Webster’s definitions and I’m stating so not to insult anyone, but to provide a clear understanding of what I’m communicating. We all tend to be in a hurry, especially when emotions are involved. Assumptions about the meanings of words tend to cause great misunderstandings and unnecessary bickering.
Any form of idealism (in my opinion) is based on unrealistic expectation.
Thinking in terms of his frame, her frame, my frame, your frame, their frame, our frame, etc. separates us from our condition. It also separates each person’s frame from himself. This separation is the most important to consider. You create your frame from your own experiences, awareness and concepts from others (which can and does include conditioning).
Regardless of what you build it with, when put together, your frame constitutes your expectations and perceptions.
By considering “frame” you are able to separate yourself from your own set of expectations and perceptions. You are thereby able to better rationally determine if your perceptions and expectations are real and or beneficial to you. And you are able to manipulate or edit your frame for your benefit. Your ability to accept that you are the designer of your frame and how closely it agrees with reality determines how your frame improves or denigrates your life. The more your frame agrees with reality, the more control you have and the better able you are to make positive changes. Improvement is a never ending challenge. Life is not stagnant. Lack of improvement is retrogression. The default is denigration.
Concerning man’s relationships with women, business endeavors; etc. frame is better rooted in reality. If he constructs his frame based on reality, he is far more successful at benefiting himself, and not at the exclusion of benefiting others.
March 17th, 2015 at 10:49 pm
Bad painter –
None of those would exist today without the inspiration and aspiration motivated by idealism. Idealism is the realization that reality sucks coupled with the arrogance to believe it can be made better absent any evidence.
Idealism is what drives men to create. Properly tempered it allows for ultimate maximization within known constraints while holding out the possiblity of getting around those constraints”
Was it your concept of idealism or the realistic considerations and reconsiderations after multiple failures that brought about those inventions?
Desires and goals are not the same as idealism.
March 17th, 2015 at 10:51 pm
Asshole – “Any form of idealism (in my opinion) is based on unrealistic expectation.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
But let’s go with that, and your attitude (which sucks and I arrogantly believe can better despite a lack of evidence)
You’re saying the French Resistance was a waste of time by that standard. As well the first 999 attempts at incandescent light bulbs. Operation on that basis would leave us with WD12, punch card computers, leeches as medicine.
I guess in addition to giving up on women I should give up on painting. Or are you saying I should be happy with fuggos and paint by numbers?
March 17th, 2015 at 10:53 pm
Lets look at this from another perspective. There was a time when men’s idealistic concept of love was respected above the opportunistic (Hypergamy based) concept of love.
Under the old set of books, when men’s attractiveness (if not arousal) was based on his primary provisioning role his love-idealism defined the intergender relationship. Thus, we still have notions of chivalry, traditional romance, conventional models of a love hierarchy, etc. These are old books ideals, and the main reason I’ve always asserted that men are the True Romantics is due exactly to this love-idealism.
There was a time when men’s idealistic love concept pushed him to achievements that had social merit and were appreciated. Ovid, Shakespeare and the Beatles would not be the human icons they are if that idealism weren’t a driving force.
Likewise, women’s opportunistic, hypergamy-based concept of love, while cruel in its extreme, has nonetheless been a driving motivation for men’s idealistic love as well as a filter for sexual selection.
Under the new set of books, in a feminine-centric social order, the strengths of that male idealism, love honor and integrity are made to serve the purpose of the Feminine Imperative.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:01 pm
Men’s idealistic love becomes a liability when he’s conditioned to believe that women share that same idealism, rather than hold to an opportunistic standard.
Yes, Frame is what you make of it, but either she enters your reality or you enter hers. A man’s idealism becomes his liability when he enters her opportunistic frame still believing they share a mutual concept of love.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:11 pm
@Just Saying
“Doesn’t matter what she has, or has experienced – she will ALWAYS come up with something she doesn’t have and wants.”
That’s because in today’s day and age, she’d too comfortable. Her own job, her own money.. society is built around her.
Idle hands… bad.
Idle thoughts… worse.
Back in the day, when survival was at the top of your list of ‘needs’ rather than iPhone jewel cases, women were more than happy with just having it a bit better than the most destitute and poorest of women. Just being with ANY man, was better than being with no man at all, and THAT was the experience by which she judged.
In a world where everyone is missing out on have and want, it took very little to satiate a woman’s haves and wants.
That day is long gone. So too is the minimal needs required to placate a woman’s hypergamy. The state provides almost everything else needed for a comfy life.. she has too much time now to think about what she doesn’t have and way too much time to act upon what she wants.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:24 pm
i heard about this story on the news this morning. If they were males they would be expelled as bullies; but since they are girls they only get an suspension. Typical in the feminist controlled unniversity system.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/03/16/5-umbc-lacrosse-team-members-suspended/
It was about 19-21 year old girls jealous about more talented 18 year old girls and making death threats. There is nothing more vicious when they form into packs.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:54 pm
I think RT’s identification of idealism as an important masculine trait is one of his greatest insights. I think the best author to read on this is Plato, especially works like the Phaedrus. But the same insights travel through much of, e.g., religious mysticism. The important thing is, men get into trouble when they confuse a particular, living, breathing woman with the ideal, the thing they want to reach through sublime experience. Even in great relationships, I have had to recognize that when I tried to treat the flawed, fallen creature before me as something greater than what she was, things always went awry—no matter how deep-seated that desire was.
Cynicism is, at best, a degenerate form of manhood. Men who are capable of planning and achieving great things are not cynical. They believe steadfastly in great possibilities.
March 18th, 2015 at 12:50 am
We’re making some progress.
We defined idealism.
We saw examples of idealistic love from a BP mindset and why it is problematic (it doesn’t work):
“The important thing is, men get into trouble when they confuse a particular, living, breathing woman with the ideal, the thing they want to reach through sublime experience.”
The ideal is that through egalitarian equalism, a man can get a woman to love him the way he wants to be loved which is the way he loves.
“Under the new set of books, in a feminine-centric social order, the strengths of that male idealism, love honor and integrity are made to serve the purpose of the Feminine Imperative.”
As to the question of how idealism applies to RP alpha love we have:
“There was a time when men’s idealistic love concept pushed him to achievements that had social merit and were appreciated. Ovid, Shakespeare and the Beatles would not be the human icons they are if that idealism weren’t a driving force.”
And my suggestion:
“RP alpha is idealistic in love in that he has a vision of the greater purpose of raising a family and bringing up functional children for the next generation”
It seems to me that a way of summarizing it is that men’s love idealism from a BP beta mindset is focused on the woman directly, while the love idealism from an RP alpha mindset is focused on the world other than the woman and perhaps on the sanctity of the relationship as something separate from and greater than the individuals involved. That is love in that the woman benefits from her man’s idealistic focus on the world at large and he is doing what actually works to keep her attraction, i.e. keeping the relationship working and stable.
Any other ideas?
March 18th, 2015 at 1:05 am
An unmoderated comment section can have its troubles.
http://therationalmale.com/2015/03/16/making-up-for-missing-out/#comment-92644
The comment included insults directed at all RM readers by its writer.
Further, the commenter seems to believe that the “only logical benefit… is financial gain”
At this moment, “The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” price is less than $10 on amazon.com.
At that price for a paperback, there is no significant profit. Though he could charge the high rates I know he deserves for these books, he’s kept the price low.
This is not how he earns his living though he’s the most intelligent & insightful person on earth when it comes to connecting a whole world of dots.
It takes a Man like Rollo Tomassi to keep such comments of the envious online.
Because the envious are so desperate to discredit truth, I’m buying more copies of the new paperback to give away.
Would you consider doing the same?
Let’s take “The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” by Rollo Tomassi to #1 and keep it there.
March 18th, 2015 at 1:12 am
The wolf makes the deer swifter, evasive and alert. The deer makes the wolf stronger, enduring and cunning.
Individually life is a messy and cruel affair, but together they make the other a better version of itself.
March 18th, 2015 at 1:13 am
Is the re-edit of the first book available in paper?
March 18th, 2015 at 5:48 am
This one really hit home for me. My story with my ex. It’s hard to imagine anyone meeting someone at 17 and being able to follow through on a monogamous promise for life, don’t you think?
March 18th, 2015 at 6:53 am
Most people can understand how the wolf is dependent on the deer. Only a handful ever seem to grasp how the deer is dependent on the wolf.
March 18th, 2015 at 7:49 am
Sounds like what happened to me.I was motivated to do better for the long term goals of the family and the betterment of the future as well as the present.My wife(ex now)was locked into a short sighted day to day existence.I was on fire and it scared the hell out of her,mentally she couldn’t keep up.
March 18th, 2015 at 8:07 am
@ rollo – yeah, but in any wildlife doco, the viewer never wants the wolf to succeed. Nor does the deer ever realize that unless it is caught and devoured, the wolves pups die.
March 18th, 2015 at 8:08 am
To further embellish your statement,creativity is only fed by dreams.If you can’t imagine or enlarge on ideas you stagnate.Oh yea,you forgot expressways and air conditioned cars.
March 18th, 2015 at 8:55 am
I’m not sure where I fit in between A & B but I tried very hard to fit into the concept of marriage in the 70’s and bow to the man has equal responsibilities in a marriage(concept).Cleaning,cooking,laundry.Sold my muscle car and threw out my car magazine collection.I really tried to fit the mold.I just couldn’t get that far away from being a Alpha.I wanted to be faithful and be a parent.No matter what,the girls at work always looked good to me and when things weren’t going good in the marriage I got back in the game.I went back a forth with this most of my life.As being old now,I prefer hookers.So,am I a Beta or an Alpha?I don’t think there’s a correct blanket answer.I believe we vacillate.For me mostly Alpha,I love an adventure.
March 18th, 2015 at 10:33 am
@ NBTM-Asshole ” Any form of idealism (in my opinion) is based on unrealistic expectation.”
I don’t believe that for a moment. It depends on the mastery and skills of the person (operator). If the operator is able to achieve a goal in a satisfactory way, then it certainly wasn’t unrealistic from the beginning.
Your ruminations remind my of the apparently paradoxical personality traits that are the INTJ type (quoted from 16personalities.com).
“A paradox to most observers, INTJs are able to live by glaring contradictions that nonetheless make perfect sense – at least from a purely rational perspective. For example, INTJs are simultaneously the most starry-eyed idealists and the bitterest of cynics, a seemingly impossible conflict. But this is because INTJ types tend to believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible, while at the same time they believe that people are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve those fantastic results. Yet that cynical view of reality is unlikely to stop an interested INTJ from achieving a result they believe to be relevant.”
I see no paradox in Rollo’s assertion that idealistic love from an Alpha frame can succeed if the man has mastery, skill and idealism. Sure in a lesser man’s hand idealism seems foolish.
March 18th, 2015 at 10:46 am
“Look at TuffLove’s situation. Yes his idealistic concept of love has burned him, and yes he’s clinging to it still because he’s still coming to terms with women’s opportunistic concept”
Yes and yes..
So, I was really conditioned as a patriarch by my father and mother (who was submissive).. as I stated before, I started out a strong natural RP guy. This actually bit me because some of those harsh, tough-love things I did early on, she never forgot, and when she went full tilt, she used them to justify what an “asshole” I am. Example, my proposal to her included the phrase ” but you need to accept, sweetheart, that I call the shots”.. OMG what a dipshit right? Still it illustrated that I was quite aware of the dangers of not controlling your woman. I just wasn’t very suave, and stupid enough to openly express that, instead of simply being patient and applying frame..
Anyway back on point.. I think the conditioning rollo refers to is that coming from the woman, and society, and yes.. he’s absolutely right. Over time, I was henpecked into a BP mindset. Also, I’m really a pretty emotional and deep-loving person underneath, so it wasn’t hard for ‘them’ to exploit my weaknesses.
But.. and here’s what I really want to say.. Make no mistake, my downfall was exactly what rollo is talking about. My love for her was something like.. “she may be a bitch and crazy fucked up in the head and hard to deal with, but I love her.. she gave me these children and she puts up with my bullshit, and she’s hot, and puts out.. and..” on and on.. an idealistic, optimistic view of my wife that kept me from falling out of love with her, and kept me committed.
THE PROBLEM, was that I assumed she saw it the same way.. “he’s a jerk, and has lost a step, but I love him, and he’s been a great provider, and he comes home every night, and he’s faithful and a great father…”, etc.. and so I will look past the fact that we don’t communicate very well, and he hides out in his garage drinking beer instead of watching reality TV with me, and plus we have these kids.. etc.. I THOUGHT that’s how she saw it. SHE ACTED like that’s how she saw it.
I know now that is not the case. Once I failed her opportunistic love, and stopped performing based on an assumption of her idealistic love, I was done for, doomed.
March 18th, 2015 at 10:55 am
.. to add one more thing..
I really believe that had my wife been fat/ugly.. less capable of capitalizing on hypergamy.. had she had a lower SMV, then she would have stayed where she was, and continued that idealistic frame, despite our disconnect.
So there you have it. Hypergamy. Opportunism. My life = solid proof.
March 18th, 2015 at 11:26 am
Own book 2. Its great. You must be proud of it.
Well done.
March 18th, 2015 at 11:36 am
I’ve seen pics of sjfrellc and his wife (girlfriend?) together. If that’s idealism NBTM could learn something from him.
March 18th, 2015 at 11:36 am
Suggestion for the next post.
How mens idealistic love (sacrificial john 15:13 type) complements womens opportunistic love (me me me type)
SOme way the parasite benefits the host, wolf/deer etc.
March 18th, 2015 at 11:47 am
@Nathan, thanks. It’s a lot more directed I think.
March 18th, 2015 at 12:16 pm
From Three Strikes:
March 18th, 2015 at 1:10 pm
@kfg – Well said!
March 18th, 2015 at 1:16 pm
[OT]: Something to write about?
A Psychological Evaluation of Dennis Hof, America’s Most Famous Brothel Owner http://www.vice.com/read/a-psychological-evaluation-of-dennis-hof-americas-most-famous-brothel-owner-678?utm_source=vicetwitterus
It’s fascinating how women suddenly are so (pseudo-)empathic and caring for the hamster-spun weaknesses if you are only enough of an asshole.
And I wonder if “looking for the special one all my life” – game (of course no girl should ever qualify) would work being a less famous and preselected asshole.
March 18th, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Thank you for the info on pragmatism.
” In light of understanding women’s sexual strategy, it’s important for Men to adopt a mental schema of pragmatism – … you’re really another commodity in hypergamy’s estimation.”
I understand.
March 18th, 2015 at 1:53 pm
Will the 2nd edition of The Rational Male be available in hardcopy in the near future?
I want to buy several copies of both books and I would prefer the improved version of book 1 if possible.
March 18th, 2015 at 2:07 pm
Looking into it. I’m talking with Createspace directly since there’s not an option to go hard copy online.
March 18th, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Thanks Rollo.
My son graduates high school this spring and then is off to college.
I want to give him both books.
I’m also thinking of having a talk with him saying that the reason I’m guiding him to RP is because lack of that knowledge on my part led to the demise of my marriage to his mother.
March 18th, 2015 at 2:43 pm
“So entrapped are we in our self-expectation and self-imposed limitations that we fail to see that we have always had the keys to our own prisons – we’re just scared shitless to use them.”
― Rollo Tomassi, The Rational Male
quote found at Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/26430071-the-rational-male
Are you willing to use your own ‘social networking’ accounts to post quotes from “The Rational Male” (Volume 1) and (Volume 2) with a link to the paperback versions of these revolutionary books you’ve been waiting your whole lifetime for?
March 18th, 2015 at 2:44 pm
Idealism, at its absolute worst, can become a self-defeating negative feedback loop. It’s particularly noticeable when this idealism is cast on an external agent one has no way of accurately gauging and therefore is has no way of living up to those expectations. This is probably what most Beta guys (myself included) experience as the motivation to discover Red Pill truths. Our idealism turns to cynicism which is further reinforced by learning of the opportunistic nature of female behaviors in love. While minor amounts of cynicism can serve as a healthy dose of rationality and reality, too much can (much like idealism) become self-defeating.
In killing the Beta and cultivating the Alpha, a man’s mission in life comes out of a new sense of idealism. Whereas the previous Beta idealism was outwardly focused on a woman or the world (a failed endeavour since neither will ever live up to it), Alpha idealism is inwardly focused on man’s ideal image of himself and his mission. This idealism is more in the realm of possibility for two reasons:
1) It is focused on the one thing that he has control of on this planet which is of course himself. In striving for this ideal version of himself he gains control of himself and therefore acquires Power, further enabling progress towards his mission.
2) Whereas the ideation of a woman or the external world can never quite be measured anywhere near accurately, he can through introspection have an idea of how close he is to his to his own ideals or how close his mission is to them.
I think NBTM’s vehement rejection of Rollo’s assertions might be born out of perfectly understandable (given all the factors of his own life and experiences) but nevertheless self-defeating levels of cynicism.
March 18th, 2015 at 3:02 pm
It seemed surreal now.
When I announced the release of Rollo’s new book at a meeting of a group of friends (some have the power to make or break my future in the industry) that I’ve served for years, I was a bit concerned about the consequences.
I admit it, my heart was beating rapidly.
So here’s what happened:
Afterward, there was a long line of people that had come over to where I was standing.
Each of them TOOK A PHOTO of the cover art of the new book with their ‘smart’ device (and most of them confirmed their purchase the same day).
Now, they’re spreading Amazon links to the books around.
And why wouldn’t they?
Most of them have done the impossible… creating ideas, concepts, innovations, inventions and companies that have changed the world.
Deci-Millionaires, Centi-millionaires and Billionaires respect the works of Tomassi: The definition of A MAN.
Do you?
March 18th, 2015 at 3:54 pm
Rollo has a gift for insightful observation of the real world that resonates with the engineer in me.
It’s an observable fact that the design and behaviors of men and women from a mating POV are complementary.
It’s also obvious from observation that there tends to be conflict in men and women’s mating strategies.
It seems to me that complementary design and function, and conflict in strategies are separate issues.
Even if there seems to be a paradox, the observable reality trumps mental gyrations about it.
Nevertheless, I spent some time picking the topic apart.
A complication is that both men and women have dualistic mating strategies within themselves that are in conflict.
For women, there is AF and BB which are in conflict in that they are typically unrealizable at the same time with one man. I’ll call it fAF (female Alpha Fux) and fBB.
In men the contradictory strategies are to impregnate as many females as possible – mAF (male Alpha Fux) – and the strategy of bonding with and provisioning a woman to nurture his genetic investment to reproductive age – mBB, which manifests consciously as ONEitis.
Both men and women flip back and forth with these strategies, even in LTRs with the same person. An example being changing preferences during the menstrual cycle.
Possible combos are:
mAF, fAF – harmonious
mAF, fBB – dissonant
mBB, fAF – dissonant
mBB, fBB – harmonious
March 18th, 2015 at 4:22 pm
@Jack LeBear I was absorbing more and more red pill manosphere ideas when my son was heading to college 20 months ago. I had only vague ideas to instill in him regarding entering a Feminine realm and being masculine with the motivation to make himself great in the future rather than rely on others including his parents to give him fortitude. One thing that helped me inspire him was “The Way of Men” book by J. Donovan.
It’s themes of Strength, Courage, Mastery and Honor being traits that define a man good at being a man in a feminine conditioned world were invaluable.
My son got into some legal trouble before he started college and was on double secret probation. I gave a few father to son pep talks driving him back and forth from college to court dates. So far he has a 4.0 GPA average after three semesters.
Whereas here at the Rational Male, you can see the evolutionary behavioral psychology of the female mind, Donovan’s book describes the same for the man’s hind-brain and how it operates in today’s conditioned society. And the manosphere blogs prove the way of men is a way of a gang. Online intellectual debate is the modern surrogate for primitive gang fighting.
@ROLLO
” I’ve seen pics of sjfrellc and his wife (girlfriend?) together. If that’s idealism NBTM could learn something from him.”
Translating that: She’s quite a bit higher in SMV than Sjfrellc.
That was a picture of my first, only and current wife. She’s turning 50 and we’ve been married for 25 years. I had good MMV and at 29 years old with a lot of idealism I locked her down when she was 25 years old.
You are absolutely right about idealism. I’m proud I never settled for something less in a female. And marrying someone +3 to your SMV is a lot of work but it is worth it.
My INTJ personality (very much like the Walter White fictional character from Breaking Bad) leads to me to honestly believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible.
With red pill awareness, my wife is the top candidate I would choose if I could choose a LTR going forward. I don’t have a one-itis frame because intellectually I know one-itis’ pathology.
March 18th, 2015 at 4:54 pm
@Jack
Yeah, I can see that working as a general rule. Matches up well with the majority of cases I’ve observed.
March 18th, 2015 at 4:58 pm
@sjfrellc
Thanks for the tip.
I’m an INTP. Do you have any insights as to how that might interact with or affect RP frame relationships?
March 18th, 2015 at 6:09 pm
Born Yesterday,
You object to:
““Men’s idealistic concept of love…”
I dunno. I’ve been training the fm for years and I get from her “idealistic” about half the time these day. It is quite pleasant. I get that it is unnatural. Think of training a dog to walk two legged. The wonder is not that they don’t do it continuously. The wonder is that they do it at all. I got my RP in ’62 at age 18. So I don’t have too man illusions. And those are mostly chosen. And like a garment can be changed for reasons or whim.
A life time of engineering has also been useful. Matching idealism to reality.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit
March 18th, 2015 at 6:12 pm
Jack LeBear
March 18th, 2015 at 3:54 pm
Just read that. Now compare to my March 18th, 2015 at 6:09 pm
Good on ya, mate.
March 18th, 2015 at 7:09 pm
Jack LeBear,
http://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality (in this link click on the links to the right to explore this type)
Here is the long premium profile.
http://www.true.co.za/downloads/mbti/intp.pdf
The real purpose of these profiles is to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Also another benefit is to type your partner and avoid harping on their weaknesses and “give” to your partner her strengths. Go with them as in Roissy’s 9th Commandment of Poon.
“IX. Connect with her emotions
Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendevous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.”
I will give an example of this 9th Commandment. I’m introverted (social interactions have a tendency to sap my energy). My wife is extroverted and she derives great energy from socializing at a party. So I figured out that in my always be performing mode and as captain of the ship to my wife’s first mate it is best for me to drive my truck to the college tailgate parties and be designated driver. (Maybe bring a propane patio heater and a wood fire-pit). And let my wife drink at the tailgate located a one hour drive. I let her roam and suck up all the delightful energy at the party. Instead of shirking the socializing, I embrace my role and greenlight the partying, then drive us home from the football game and watch the second half of the game at home on TV while I decompress with with a few bourbons. And if my wife is ovulating it can be a delightful adventure. Three years ago in my blue pill fog I might have slipped away to be by myself and go deer hunting and skip the adventure for a solitary pursuit. And my wife would sense my “weakness” in doing this. And I would lose my social proof. See how that works.
March 18th, 2015 at 7:15 pm
M Simon,
Did you mean adjusting my strategy or at least behavior to match my woman’s current strategy, or did you mean to try to change her strategy to match what I want to do at the time?
Being into applying knowledge to get good real world results, I’m very interested in knowing how to train my woman.
Do you have a collection of writings on that, or can you point me to sources of that knowledge?
If you don’t have your own essays on that would you be willing to write some?
I forgot what your non-EE site is. Can I find stuff there?
March 18th, 2015 at 7:43 pm
Idealism is an interesting topic, from the psychological perspective it is a Machiavellian tool used to ensnare a person into subservience.
It’s effectively an appeal to the idealization of a behaviour that benefits the other, it foments a power dynamic and becomes a tool of psychological control whereby the other’s wants and needs are imbued upon the subject of the idealisation.
It can become so encompassing that the subject’s very own psychological state becomes subordinate to the whims of the other. It is effectively a means of psychological control.
The methods of coercion are usually shaming, ostracism, threats or casting the person refusing the idealisation as dangerous, man-up, you can’t get a woman, your afraid of responsibility, misogynist, rapist etc.
This is where Rollo’s ‘outcome independence’ and ‘frame control’ become so powerful, it’s a way for a person to remove themselves from the control of idealism, it is neither coercive nor controlling. It is simply pursuing ones own ideals, needs and wants, anyone can enter or leave your frame voluntarily.
Killing the beta isn’t killing yourself, it is killing the others control of yourself through the beta idealism.
The FI’s real power is it’s control of the idealism schema, the power of Rollo’s message is that it recognises and describes the schema for what it is and provides the tools to extricate oneself from the FI’s idealism schema.
March 18th, 2015 at 8:04 pm
“It takes a Man like Rollo Tomassi to keep such comments of the envious online.
Because the envious are so desperate to discredit truth, I’m buying more copies of the new paperback to give away.
Would you consider doing the same?
Let’s take “The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” by Rollo Tomassi to #1 and keep it there.”
I second that… loving reading the book.
March 19th, 2015 at 12:51 am
I have to say,I thought that this would be a sight where men helped each other to actually reinforce being a man and to defeat some of the social injustices that we face.Instead I find that you sound more like a whinny little bunch of over consumed literary premadonas.I’m the fuck outta this group.Quite being so self righteous
March 19th, 2015 at 1:05 am
“If you are a younger man dealing with an older woman (why, I don’t know) you will likely encounter women like Rinaldi and women with similar mindsets as Robin Korth. It’s important to know what you are, or will be, dealing with.”
Just fucking great. I thought cougars were done with the carousel riding, but they’re still riding it lol. Ill still have competition, though less brutal right? The reason why I don’t approach girls my age is because its harder, and I’m a little awkward and need to work on my social skills. I thought it was going to be 100xs easier for me to lose my virginity. The way you frame the post, there won’t be much of a difference . This makes me think, and will sharpen my game and approaches.
March 19th, 2015 at 1:16 am
Sounds like you mis-conceived wildcard21. It’s like bad TV, you don’t have to watch. You could just read a Rollo Tomassi essay and skip the comments section. You do realize that 80% of people suck at online intellectual debate as a surrogate for primitive tribal warfare in a now modern society. If you feel like you did in high school as a nerdy fag who wasn’t skilled at a competitive level, you are certainly welcome to take your ball (figurative baseball, football or soccerball) and go home.
Heheh:
Cypher: “I know what you’re thinking, ’cause right now I’m thinking the same thing. Actually, I’ve been thinking it ever since I got here: Why oh why didn’t I take the BLUE pill? ”
Cypher: “You know, I know this steak doesn’t exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? ”
[Takes a bite of steak]
Cypher: ” Ignorance is bliss. “
March 19th, 2015 at 1:26 am
@wildcard21
March 19th, 2015 at 1:47 am
I am hoping these commos will stop but I feel compelled to respond.I am way more simple than most of the upper level intellect I see here “Peacocking”.This sight is more about pussy and look how big my dick is than really trying to help men after the onslaught of feminism.So I guess what a “Real” man would say is FO&D.
March 19th, 2015 at 1:55 am
@ wildcard21
Do you know any sites that try to help men after the onslaught of feminism?
March 19th, 2015 at 2:08 am
@wildcard21
Ask yourself: “How can I be better?”
This is the one site I’ve ever found where actual intelligent, informative, helpful, and focused evo-psych/sociological discussion really happens on a consistent basis. Maybe there are others, but I’ve not found them,.
March 19th, 2015 at 2:18 am
P.S. wildcard21
There are a multitude of “rage chambers” out there for you to vent and hear your calcified sentiments echoed back at you by paralyzed and clueless kindred souls.
Go to them. See if you evolve for the better. Then, once (or, “if”) you’ve see the light, come back and kiss this hallowed ground for the astounding fucking singular oasis that it is.
March 19th, 2015 at 3:01 am
@wildcard21
You came to a site where folks routinely have somewhat cerebral discussions, then bitched and insulted everybody when we didn’t express ourselves through monosyllabic grunts and guttural street talk a la Idiocracy. Here, let me solve your problem for you: read the discussion, stay out of the comments, and go take a remedial English class.
To act like men can’t be masculine and intellectual is to ignore which sex spent most of written history basically inventing the entire fucking concept. Cretin.
March 19th, 2015 at 3:20 am
March 19th, 2015 at 5:45 am
@ Sun
Off topic but that Top Gear meme… Another ‘male space’ being disbanded? They were looking for an excuse to shut it down…Im sure Clarkson’s ‘punch’ was blown out of proportion by the media…
March 19th, 2015 at 6:45 am
Clarkson and his chums are/were the prettiest whores in the BBC’s brothel.
Worth squillions to them. More like he and his
co-conspiratorproducer have augured the forthcoming death of the BBC over the outrageous Licence Fee banditry and their proposed substitute, a massive flat tax on everyone, everywhere, forever (really, that’s how they think).And/or Murdoch has waved an unfeasibly large wad of tax-free under their noses.
…and (click).. you’re back in the room.
March 19th, 2015 at 7:04 am
@ Tam
Haha that’s one way of looking at it!
March 19th, 2015 at 8:06 am
Top gear is a terrible show, aside from showcasing the latest cars, I cant stand those three pretentious hosts bragging about useless crap.
March 19th, 2015 at 11:02 am
hey wildcard21 , go back and do what you do best
March 19th, 2015 at 12:03 pm
@Amit
If Clarkson is playing this straight, he’s just a casualty of his own over-inflated ego. The BBC are fucking themselves taking him off the air. Angry SJWs were the ones to blow this event out of proportion to get what they want though; they’ve wanted Clarkson’s head on a platter for a while, and he handed it to them with an event that’s unquestionably illegal in any court of law. This isn’t about SJW-ism per se (seriously, I’d expect anybody assaulting their boss to be fired), it’s just that they’re the ones who’ve wanted something like this to take him down because their reasons for wanting to take him down are stupid to anyone with half a brain and a sense of humor. At least that’s my straight up take on the situation.
Putting my suspicious hat on: this could be a very calculated move on Clarkson’s part to leave the BBC and head out to greener pastures. It’s big publicity and controversy, which to be honest is simply how he keeps himself out there. He’s always pissing somebody off. This could just be another instance of it where he sees an opportunity to move on to a lot more money.
At any rate that’s about all the thought I was willing to give it. Then I saw a shiny thing and moved on.
March 19th, 2015 at 12:19 pm
i think wildcard2 was looking for AVfM and took the left at Albuquerque and ended up here.
This place is less about fighting feminism as it is about understanding human behavior and our evolved biological roots. It’s less about right and wrong or moral absolutes and simply understanding the amoral nature of… nature.
We understand how feminism has short circuited nature.. we aren’t here to combat it like a bunch of feminists or by trying to produce a ‘light’ version of the feminine imperative. We’re here to understand who we really are and why we are the way we are so we can navigate ‘the real world’ with eyes open.
Do we want equality under the law? Yes. Do we wish feminism dies? Yes. Are we going to talk about biological inequality needing to be ‘equalitzed’ feminist style till we’re blue in the face? No. Are we going to promote silly egalitarian ideas of what a ‘real man’ does or looks like in order to be successful with women? No. We will discuss what women actually respond to and reward, and the reasons why.
We’re not here to push back and be ‘masculists’ or ‘meninists’ or whatever label. We’ve made a choice to come here and learn about the human condition and why ‘equality’ is a lie that can’t exist in nature (I believe Yohami taught me that one). We aren’t here to set wrongs right or fight for mens rights. We’re here to understand how to navigate the world with blinders off and a crystal clear understanding of cause and effect. To end the lie of the ‘old books’ and know how the game is actually played with the ‘new playbook’.
We didn’t come here to make the choice, we’ve already made it. We’re here to try to understand *why* we made it. And as far as im concerned, no place on the internet has done a better job at ‘rationally’ connecting the dots of why the world of human mating behaviors and SMV work the way they do than here at tRM.
We’re not here to fight, protest or become activists. We’re here to expand our minds and personal growth.
PS – Top Gear, bloody excellent show. I will miss it. My belief is Clarkson got tired of doing the show and just kept ramping up the outrageous behavior knowing full well it would lead to the end. He just wanted to see how far he could take it.
March 19th, 2015 at 12:27 pm
You coulda titled the post Making Out, for Missing Up. Would have been just as effective, maybe more.
March 19th, 2015 at 12:37 pm
“I have to say,I thought that this would be a sight where men helped each other to actually reinforce being a man”
This is a site (not sight) that is red pill aware and game focused on inter-sexual relationships based on behavioral psychology and evolutionary psychology.
Game principles still apply among an consortium of males who are like-minded. You would be better to understand “Game principles apply to men among men, work and family interactions”. Game applies to all your interpersonal and social interactions. Not just males gaming females. In Neil Strauss’ “The Game” guys got together to learn tactics, share ideas and improve their interactions with women. And guess what the result was: Neil Strauss was better at being a man at the end of the story.
You might want to realized the comments made toward you after your last comment are fitness (shit) tests designed to see what you are made of.
Tuffluv was shit tested in the ” The Invisibles” go back and see how he originally responded to being tested and then came back around to a red-pill line of thought. That was intentional on Rollo’s part to get him from point A (not ready to swallow the red pill) to point B (maybe gonna swallow the red pill after gives up some of his ego investment). Guys are going to test guys to see if they are worthy to hold up their role in the consortium (gang of like minded individuals).
That is not to say dissenting opinions are unwelcome. How do you think Rollo operates? He thrives on dissenting opinions. Rollo couldn’t make these connections if he thought knew it all –he is highly receptive to alternate theories, so long as they’re supported by logic and facts. In more subjective matters like social norms and traditions, Rollo is usually fairly liberal, with a “none of my business” sort of attitude – peoples’ ideas are what matter.
Rollos’ analysis, creativity and open-mindedness aren’t the tools of some quest for ideology or emotional validation. Rather, it’s as though people with Rollo’s personality type are a conduit for the truths around them, so far as they can be expressed, and they are proud of this role as theoretical mediator.
So I suggest you are highly welcome to participate in a forum of like minded individuals. But bring some DHV (dick swinging if you will) and social proof to the group. You can be different, just don’t think you are entitled to blurt out your feelings in a red pill forum.
“….and to defeat some of the social injustices that we face.” The problem with that mis-perception is there a problem with that wish of yours being too equalist, MRA-like and blue pill. Make yourself a better man. The tools are there in the 400 essays Rollo has on this site. Make yourself the prize. Be better yourself in order to overcome the social injustice barriers. “Defeating social injustices” is just like the whiny (not whinny) football, soccer or wrestling team that loses a match and then complains that ” we only lost because the referee screwed us”.
To know one thing and say another would be terribly disingenuous Rollo (and his proxy’s–the commenters) don’t often go around intentionally hurting feelings, but they believe that the truth is the most important factor, and they expect that to be appreciated and reciprocated.
March 19th, 2015 at 12:50 pm
It would be awesome if the ex husband reversed his vasectomy and had a child with his younger, hotter partner.
March 19th, 2015 at 1:45 pm
Ideals are like “blueprints”. When a man builds a house, he first envisions the final product. Then, based on that “ideal” final version, sets out to plan the construction; to “plot a course based on the ideal (destination)”.
Myself, I used my ideals to plot a course to my current lifestyle situation. I was able to use real factors to affect my physical location, and provide myself with a closer-to-ideal situation.
The problem with men being idealistic in love is that men, in true Man form, take into account TANGIBLES to make their plans. The folly stems from men attempting to measure or gauge in real terms a “thing” that cannot be quantified or measured: love.
Whereas blueprints for a house, or “house ideal”, is based on real factors like 2×4’s and finite measurements, blueprints for love can’t be followed. The first reason for this being that emotion can’t be finitely measured. The second being that, instead of “love” being a “thing”, “love” is a state of being: 2×4’s are made of cotton candy and rainbows in that dimension.
You can create a thing, but, you can’t build a persons state of being.
[I know, “seduction” involves trying, but…]
What further wreaks havoc on a man achieving the ideal of love is the erosion and undermining by constant marketing and media agendas firing at the brains of women in attempts to get them to consume.
So, while men are holding up their blueprints for love consisting of respect, happiness, trust, and so on, women are simply feeling whatever they are led to feel, all environmental factors beyond your control have a say in their “democratic logic”. [Thoughts, feelings, parents, friends, the weather, the magic 8-ball, the internet… they all have an equal vote in a woman’s “logic”: if what a woman personally thinks/feels doesn’t align with the rest of the votes, she’s out-voted and defaults to “wisdom” of the democracy). Women don’t try to build anything using ideals or foresight, they are only looking to be provided for and feel good. It all boils down to:
Men: love architects
Women: love feelers
What the Red Pill promotes is not for men to aspire to “love” by some ideals or blueprints, but to instead strive to forego “love” and exchange that confounding notion for “happiness”. Instead of thinking about “love”, don’t think about it at all, let women worry about that. If a man feels happy, that’s the best indication of good/bad and right/wrong. Women simply feel “happiness” and call it “love” if they are with someone at the time. If nobody happens to be with them, “love” is only the singular form: happiness.
What’s stopping you from embracing hedonism like women do?
“We have the technology.”
Once you view “being in love” less like “x + b – d = y”, and more like “Is this good: Yes No”, the sooner love ideals fall by the wayside.
Bottom line: don’t have ideals for love, consider happiness the ONLY ideal. With happiness as the ideal, over-complication of quite simple ideas is avoided, and your life is simplified and less stressful.
…not to mention that your will and your frame become like the flakturm of Nazi germany: “bulletproof” to say the least.
March 19th, 2015 at 1:57 pm
M3 – “We’re not here to push back and be ‘masculists’ or ‘meninists’ or whatever label. ”
Profound.
This an important and subtle point. To become a “meninist” movement would be to follow the same flawed path as feminism does by attempting to define the feminine within a social/political context that is driven not by nature but by a constructed agenda.
March 19th, 2015 at 2:20 pm
lol@Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Abominable Snowman gif
“Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. My very own Easter Bunny! I’m going to hug ’em and squeeze ’em and love ’em and pet ’em…”
March 19th, 2015 at 2:25 pm
@RM:”The wolf makes the deer swifter, evasive and alert. The deer makes the wolf stronger, enduring and cunning.”
This comparision is flawed *today* in a central way: Without natural or social genetic elimination, the selected-for-criteria becomes NOT “good hunter” or “strong wolf”, but “good pussy hunter”.
A good pussy hunter is not a strong and certainly no good man. The ages-old popularity of total losers, anit-social men and useless men with the ladys shows that clearly enough.
A small, but very important difference.
Case in point: Me. :-)
Me using game to become a relativly good “pussy hunter” has NOT
– increased my productivity (rather it has decreased, because I don’t need it to compete)
– increased my amount of innovation produced (why should I care?)
– increased my social cohesion with the society around me (quite the opposite actually, after looking behind the curtain)
Did my genetic potential suddenly change after using game? No, of course not as that is impossible.
Ergo:
Becoming a better pussy hunter achieves nothing and makes nothing better at all (neither me nor the social structures around me).
The fact that females are given protected AND free mate choice at the same time is the core problem, that game alleviates on a purely individual level.
____________
@ natural impulses versus “menist movements”:
“To become a “meninist” movement would be to follow the same flawed path as feminism does by attempting to define the feminine within a social/political context that is driven not by nature but by a constructed agenda.”
Is patriarchal Islam a “menist” movement?
Was patriarchal Christian culture a “menist” movement?
Defining the feminine within a social and political agenda is a path to power to states or state-like collectives that do that.
This is evident from the incredible difficulties that western societies have defeating their declared enemies, who are massively behind them in technology, wealth and any other measure- if “only” the psychological strength (not pussy hunting-capability) was there – a few tanks’n’planes would do the trick in a matter of weeks.
Natural impulses…well…my natural impulse (completly unfiltered) is to rape and torture feminists to death for their violation of a natural order and their corrupting influence.
Or kill men from the outside for accessing women in my sphere – which they have no “right” to, because they are foreign.
Of course I do nothign like that and these impulses are just that: Impulses, not any higher law.
So let’s be careful about those impulses and about glorifying them.
March 19th, 2015 at 2:47 pm
447 – “Defining the feminine within a social and political agenda is a path to power to states or state-like collectives that do that.”
Agree.
It’s the intentionality of the attempts to define nature and reality in an exclusively social/political context which leads to the problem.
Which is why the MRM will fail by itself because it it is force fitting nature into a artificial construct just like feminism. It’s poor attempt to improve nature by reverse engineering.
The attempt here to explain what is, whether correct or not, is just a survey of the environment in which all other constructs are built.
Religious constructs are built on an understanding of reality. Islam, and Christianity default to patriarchy based on that. Patriarchy was not the goal but the operating environment in which those faiths developed. I’d argue that base understanding was mostly correct simply by the complete absence of durable matriarchal societies in historical record.
March 19th, 2015 at 3:46 pm
sorry, totally off topic but i just ran into this while at work and i had to post it somewhere just for the topkeklels this produced in me
https://ca.screen.yahoo.com/tv-in-no-time-videos/married-first-sight-bride-disappointed-074640156.html
March 19th, 2015 at 4:15 pm
“Billy Jacques on March 19, 2015 at 12:50 pm
It would be awesome if the ex husband reversed his vasectomy and had a child with his younger, hotter partner.”
Or better yet, it turns out he never got a vasectomy in the first place; he just told her that he did! Alas, I doubt it because that would be too alpha for someone who is clearly Beta as they come.
March 19th, 2015 at 4:33 pm
@M3
Christ how many of these awful “reality” shows featuring clearly broken people are they going to pump out before the public collectively hurls all over the floor having gorged itself on too much intellectual junk food?
March 19th, 2015 at 4:39 pm
Answer to Sun Wukong: none, because a narcissistic cukter never tires at looking at their reflection.
March 19th, 2015 at 4:41 pm
Sun Wukong, an idiocracy is a stupidity consumption engine. The less intellect, the easier to consume. It’s been a race to the bottom for serving up shit.
I don’t even want to know what ‘society’ will be watching 10 years from now since most people are getting there ‘infotainment’ from retard stations like buzzfeed and mashable with leading headlines like ‘this guy put his finger up the lions bum, you won’t believe how the lion responded!’.
The internet was supposed to make us smarter. Instead it gave a majority the freedom to be stupid and freely consume feelings rather than knowledge.
I wrote about it a long time ago.. i nailed it down pretty much to when The Learning Channel removed knowledge based shows and became TLC.. the channel where women got to enjoy feels of What not to wear, say yes to the dress, Toddlers in Tiara’s and a whole host of other ‘dramas’.
I weep for the future. And then i realize that i don’t care. I’ll be dead long before the bill comes due.
March 19th, 2015 at 4:44 pm
@ Sun Wukong
Reality TV is just kindler/gentler version of old school blood sport. Since bear baiting, dog fighting, cock fighting, and gladiatorial combat are passé, and illegal, the only thing left is to pit idiots against each other in a fight to the tears.
March 19th, 2015 at 5:22 pm
I always likened reality television to the days when people would pay an admission fee to go to the madhouse and ridicule the inmates for entertainment purposes. Difference is the inmates now consent to the treatment and get paid for the mocking and teasing…but their reactions are the same.
March 19th, 2015 at 5:23 pm
@girlwithadragonflytattoo
“Because the envious are so desperate to discredit truth, I’m buying more copies of the new paperback to give away.
Would you consider doing the same?
Let’s take “The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” by Rollo Tomassi to #1 and keep it there.”
I second that… loving reading the book
I’m loving ordering the Kindle and paperback for friends via Amazon Prime. This one is going to a buddy I’ve known for 20 years. You know his voice. Of course he can afford to purchase it, but there’s this ‘magic’ that happens when you buy both the Kindle and the paperback for friends like him.
He’s at the top of the narrow career niche he’s been in all of these years, people look up to him. A whole industry listens to what he says, they watch what he does… and they try to apply what they learn from him.
Similar to Rollo Tomassi, this friend’s wife still has genuine desire for him. He’s in a position to only accept the highest paying jobs, so he’s got time to spend with his children, too.
He ‘gets’ a lot of this material. But we’ve all been searching for this material. It did not exist until Rollo Tomassi.
March 19th, 2015 at 5:30 pm
To accurately represent a womans lifecycle, it should be written:
Alpha fucks/Beta Bucks*/ Alpha Fucks
*
March 19th, 2015 at 5:31 pm
* 5 year window Beta Bucks + divorce and alimony provisioning
March 19th, 2015 at 6:43 pm
Hey Rollo, you need to watch the Movie “Mud” with Matthew McConaughey, I think everything you write about is pretty much summed up in that movie. Very good film and good lessons in it for young boys. You need to write an article on it.