“The Believers” vs. The Empiricists

I’ve been meaning to do a post about this for a while now, and given the present ideological schism in the Manosphere (still searching for a better term) I thought reposting this would be relevant to the discussion. This is from an old Purple Pill Debate thread on Reddit. I was made aware of it by Rian Stone about a year ago and I’ve returned to it often enough in commentary and Tweets that I felt it deserved a post and a discussion of its own here.

Now, I understand that the definitions of what constitutes a red pill understanding versus a blue pill outlook are always going to be subjective to the individual guy. The “red pill” and the “blue pill” have become so distorted recently that as terms, as loose brands, they’ve become effectively meaningless. Anyone who reads my work or has heard me opine about these terms already grasps what my own interpretations are. However, far too many disingenuous actors have entered this community of late and all have an interest in shifting those definitions to cater to their pet ideology. In fact, converting the Red Pill to be interpreted as an ideology rather than a praxeology (or a heuristic if you prefer) founded in an objective understanding of intersexual dynamics has been their primary goal.

All this redefining has done is (deliberately) confuse the purpose of understanding gender interrelations by inserting ideology into the mix. Often this is an effort at reprioritizing how interpreting intersexual dynamics ought to discussed. Most often it’s a conflict of the ‘correct’ way of approaching the interpreting of observable facts & data. So moralists believe in one goal for the interpretation while objectivists see another. The result is we talk past one another. Then one disavows the other, goes off to broadcast what he thinks is truth – according to their origination premise – and builds a brand based on that redefinition of “the red pill” according to them.

You’ll get a better understanding here (emphasis my own):

__________________________________________________________

Red Pill and Blue Pill people end up talking past each other because they cannot even agree on what they should be debating about. The sets of values they hold are completely disjointed. They cannot even agree on what a “debate” is, and what the goals of a “debate” are.

Red Pill people generally bring the following assumptions to a debate:

  • They believe that there is exactly one reality, and that truth is what accurately describes that reality. The better a statement describes reality, the more true it is. They are factual absolutists.
  • They believe that whether something is “good” or “bad” is a matter of opinion, and that all systems of morality are things societies invented to get a result, and it is therefore pointless to argue about whether something is “evil” or not, instead of about what effect it has. They are moral relativists.
  • They believe that the goal of a debate is to establish what the facts are, and how this knowledge can be used to control outcomes. They argue about what is true.
  • They believe that debates are a cooperative process between two or more people who have the shared goal of achieving a more accurate picture of absolute reality, and that, while people may stick vehemently to their positions, they can also reverse them on a dime if new information comes to light, because the only real attachment is to the truth. They believe debates occur between theories, not people. Thus questioning someone’s character is off-limits, because it is irrelevant.

Blue Pill people generally bring the following assumptions to a debate:

  • They believe that reality is subjective, and what is “true” is simply a matter of who you ask. What is called “truth” is simply a codification of someone’s perspective, and it is therefore pointless to argue about what is “true“. They are factual relativists.
  • They believe that there is exactly one set of moral laws, which human beings have gradually discovered in a historical climb towards ethical perfection (or degeneration). Certain people are ethically better or worse based not only on what they do, but also on what they believe. They believe that different ethical systems exist, but they can be ranked from ethically worst to ethically best based on a sort of meta-ethics whereby they can be tested for degree of compliance with the one absolute set of ethics that underlies reality. They are moral absolutists.
  • They believe that the goal of debate is to establish what is morally better, and what everyone should do. They argue about what is right.
  • They believe that debates are a competitive process between two people, who each have the goal of establishing their views about right and wrong by attaining a state of moral ascendancy over the other person. They believe that anyone who changes their views is revealing a flaw in their moral character (because their previous views were not morally correct), and must thereafter relinquish the moral high ground and submit their actions to the moral judgement of others (usually the person who won the debate). They believe debates occur between people, not ideas, for the precise purpose of establishing who should be allowed to set standards for the behavior of others (because they are morally superior). Thus, questioning someone’s character is not only relevant, it’s the whole point.

This is why Blue Pill adherents think “those Red Pill guys” are “misogynists” or bad people. Because they cannot imagine an analysis that does not occur for the purposes of judgement, much less one that doesn’t include any idea about what people “should” do.

This is why the Red Pill insists that the Blue Pill are willfully blind. Because, to them, anyone who doesn’t admit the truth must be unable to perceive it. They cannot imagine anyone not caring what the truth is.

This is why Blue Pillers keep thinking that Red Pillers are trying to restore the Dark Ages. They cannot imagine any group with shared views not having one moral agenda that they wish everyone to abide by.

This is why Red Pillers think that Blue Pill adherents must be hopelessly bad at understanding human social structures. They cannot imagine anyone not wanting to do things in the most effective possible way.

Here’s an example of this kind of misunderstanding in action:

Here we see an interaction between RP and BP regarding age of consent laws.

  • RP’s primary objective to propose an algorithm for making legal judgements about consent or lack of it, which he believes will best serve what the majority of people desire to see these laws do. He looks at the issue as an engineering problem, and he proposes a solution.
  • BP’s objective is to establish whether or RP is a bad person. If he can be gotten to agree to a statement which BP thinks of as diagnostic of “evilness”, then the debate can be won, and anything RP says can thereafter be dismissed as originating from an evil person.
  • BP says “All this so you can justify getting laid.”. BP thinks RP is trying to “justify” something according a set of moral rules, because to BP, every act has a moral valance, and anyone who wishes to do anything must at least be ready with a moral excuse.
  • RP has been arguing, meanwhile, about which metaphors best illustrate human social and mating dynamics. RP does not address the issue of right or wrong at all, and seems to believe BP is engaging with him on factual level.

Thus RP and BP cannot even agree on what the argument is about.

RP thinks right and wrong are a matter of opinion, and BP doesn’t care what the facts are.

__________________________________________________________

I imagine the discussion thread for this post is going to get pretty heated. However, I want to point out that a lot of what I’m seeing in the Manosphere at present is rooted in factual relativists attempting to establish what the “Red Pill” ought to mean to people, and thereby redefining it to suit their goals of couching any objective discussion in moralist terms.

What’s happening is that factual relativists want the Red Pill to be about what’s right or wrong according to their ideological bent. So they will bend over backwards to reinterpret what is actually an objectivist exploration of intersexual dynamics to fit their ‘interpretive headspace’ – or they will simply write off the Red Pill wholesale and say “Those Red Pill guys are just bitter, negative, misogynists” without a hint of their own irony.

Example: The realities of Hypergamy aren’t right or wrong, they simply are. In any of my numerous essays outlining Hypergamy, and for all my attempts to dispel the misconceptions about it, I’ve never once stated that Hypergamy was ‘evil‘ or that women’s nature is evil because of it. It’s simply a reproductive strategy that manifests per the realities of women’s nature and needs.

The factual relativists responds to this in two ways: First, is the nihilistic approach (Black Pill if you must) – Hypergamy conflicts with their personal interests and ideological bent. Thus, Hypergamy, or women’s inability (or choice) to police it for their betterment, or humanity’s betterment are evil. Second, is the approbation approach – “You talk about Hypergamy too much (or at all), it must be because you’re fundamentally a bad, damaged, morally compromised person.”

A debate never really occurs between these headspaces because the goals of the debate are never the same. Now, add to all this that factual relativists are appropriating the ‘red pill’ as their own “Brand of Me” and building revenue streams around their ideological interpretation of its original intent. Any counter argument proffered by factual absolutists is not only a challenge to their ego-investments, it’s also interpreted as an attack on their livelihoods.

In 2015 and again in 2018 I made this point:

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

Unfortunately, this is where we are at today in the modern ‘Manosphere‘. The reason I’m attacked with accusations of enforcing some ideological purity tests for the Red Pill is directly attributable to the mindset of the factual relativists; whose livelihoods are now dependent upon the redefinition of whatever the Hell the “Red Pill” means to them or should mean to those they broadcast it to.

So, I become a ‘Cult Leader‘ because their minds can only think in terms of ideology. Again, the factual relativist never leaves the ideological Frame in which they believe the debate takes place.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Yollo Comanche
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@TT

You sure came around fast.

TT
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@Palmasailor

“The outcome of this shit will be Darwinian!”

The problem being that men are programmed to (at best) not care if women are privileged over them/harass them, and only seek to one-up other men.
Few things your average men enjoys than seeing a woman privileged unjustly over other men — sometimes over himself.
They think it helps their reproductive strategy… of course it’s not conscious it’s wired instincts.

So what is there that could stop the trend? Nothing and nobody.
And social/cultural trends that have no checks indeed tend to grow out of proportion…

Sentient
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Lesbian World Cup on…

Disney premiers live action Mulan trailer…

every other corpocrat propaganda short GRRL themed…

Zeus… bring fire…

kfg
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kfg
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Zeus brings lightning (which can start fires).

Vulcan brings fire. And lava. And a big ass hammer.

Culum Struan
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LOL@Sentient’s “Lesbian World Cup” – hahaha.

Centuries
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Zeus brings lightning (which can start fires).
Nah
as IRL says ‘Another pathology piggybacking to get normalized. Slowly boiling that frog.’

the Chinese love fried frogs legs and are licking their collective lips for the frog to be done.

Centuries
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theasdgamer
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YL: ““women’s studies” a legitimate science or social activism built around feminist ideology?” The primary purpose is to give jobs to incompetent people in universities. WS is also used for social activism. “The word “ideology” may have a negative connotation, but it is quite clear that both TRP reddit and Rollo’s The Rational Male are HIGHLY ideological.” As soon as Rollo tried to provide support from “science” (evo-psychobabblology), TRP acquired an ideological frame. So, in my view, TRP is both praxology and ideology. TRP relies heavily upon a great deal of anecdotal evidence from people who are heavily invested in… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@TT

“men clearly have never been interested in their partner having a mind”

Clearly, a mind in a woman isn’t necessary for short term mating, but for LTRs, it’s essential for many men.

“I don’t think that market transactions require meeting of minds though.”

Well, a meeting of the minds is one of the main principles of contracts. And if you’re talking about a marketplace, then contracts are part of the game.

Blaximus
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“ Each of the sexes has developed what was mostly in demand from the other sex, men clearly have never been interested in their partner having a mind — just like women have never been interested in “honesty” if honesty is to mean something beyond a deceptive dress of honesty + disposition to take their orders and be of material/economic use to them and their family (“He should love not only me, but also my family” translated for you).” Careful there. This right here could be a dangerous assumption. Men that only want pretty airheads are taking on as much… Read more »

YoungLegend
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@theasdgamer

In regards to your last post, … it looks like we are in complete agreement — and you worded it better than I would have.

Just to clarify, there is no dispute over (A)-(D) — I was simply using them as examples of …. perhaps we could call them red pill memes or red pill-isms. You didn’t necessarily need to address them.

j
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“how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male?” As long as she can understand my sarcastic sense of humor, and can read what I want without me having to be be explicit (high Emotional/Social Intelligence) (she “just gets it” ™ ) I don’t care if she didn’t graduate from Harvard with Cum laude. And its not different than a male’s intelligence lol. There’s IQ and EQ. “The IQ measures your intellectual skill level. It measures your ability to… Read more »

Blaximus
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J Sup man?😁 Women can also have high ” IQ” as defined. It’s not widespread because it’s not what most gals believe men will find attractive ( at least the smarter ones ). Unless a chick is a feminist, they will take a more submissive role. Like when you say ” get my humor/jokes “, they will be smart enough to grasp differing forms of humor while not necessarily wanting to compete or outjoke. I agree with Palma though, I need intelligence for the longer haul or even just spending significant time with a chick. When guys say that they… Read more »

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Rollo in the OP BP’s objective is to establish whether or RP is a bad person. If he can be gotten to agree to a statement which BP thinks of as diagnostic of “evilness”, then the debate can be won, and anything RP says can thereafter be dismissed as originating from an evil person. Another label used is “bitter”. Blue pill men will accuse Red Pill realists of being “bitter” towards women for simply stating facts such as “women are hypergamous”. This is generally emotional, not rational. In fact, the vast majority of Blue Pill positions are based on emotion… Read more »

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“It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.”

7817
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For the platonic ideal of “True believer” thinking, see Bnonn and Foster’s twitter exchange:

https://mobile.twitter.com/thisisfoster/status/1147469232952807424?p=v

D. Bnonn Tennant@bnonn
Haha, Rollo Tomassi is so comically incompetent at philosophy. A mass of self-contradictory incoherence.

Michael Foster@thisisfoster
They really are elementary mistakes. I’m struck by his use “co-branding.” That’s a tell.

The Diplomat
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Another excellent essay, Rollo. I haven’t commented here in quite awhile, but I have still been on here and following every single essay for over six years. TRM remains my go-to RP information resource. Your work helped me change my life and I’ll never forget it. Not easy to find this kind of clear, factual, non-biased information out there anywhere else. If it exists elsewhere in such a comprehensive and scholarly form, I’ve not yet discovered it. Thank you once again for sharing all of this and keeping it going with passion and purpose.

ScribblerG
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Meanwhile, I took down another new hottie last night. HB9, 19yo. Submissive. Bareback. Loved being dommed hardcore. I have to say, she was perhaps one of my best lovers ever, actually. I have another lined up for later in the week, lol. Gonna be 57 tomorrow, hehe. First tall girl for me in a long time, 5’11”, me barely 5’8″, and she still called me Daddy. I don’t do “field reports” but this is more of my “digital funnel” approach to gaming paying off extraordinarily well. Girls qualify and select in to be dommed by me on the dating sites… Read more »

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@ Blaximus “Quick census of commenters please : how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male?” For me intelligence in a woman counts… in large amounts. 😊 To seduce a woman’s mind is often the gateway to seducing her body, and so she actually has to have a mind in the first place. Seduce a woman’s mind, the seat of her imagination, and she will come back for more… again and again. I have never met a woman… Read more »

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@Rollo Excellent article which spells out the dangers of ideology versus praxeology, and absolutism versus relativism. The starting point on my journey into an RP mindset has to begin with this epithet on truth from Marcus Aurelius, stoic philosopher and ‘the last of the five good Emperors’ of the Roman Empire: ‘Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.’ So, on the face of it, truth, as espoused by Marcus Aurelius, appears to be ‘relative’ — but this is too simple a conclusion to reach. I believe that truth —… Read more »

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Blaximus Quick census of commenters please : how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male? I don’t care to go out with dumb girls. I have to do too much of the work. There has to be “something” going on in there to work with. A girl needs her own “Girl Game” as it were. She needs confidence herself. It takes two to tango and all that. We pile on guys for having bad game as the cause… Read more »

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@Rudolpn @Blaximus “We pile on guys for having bad game as the cause of their woman troubles but I think we don’t give nearly enough credence to the idea that women have crap game of their own. There are a lot of oblivious women out there. Some of it is hypergamous and culturally induced blindness but some measure of it is their own lack of confidence. Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience. A girl doesn’t need “guy logic” but she need at least understand that there is “guy logic.”” You’ve hit the nail on the head! Oblivious,… Read more »

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Yes, Tantum The discussion goes more into the fact of High Self Esteem vs. Low Self Esteem. High Self-Esteem, competent. feminine (which incorporates intelligence in the the other sex–that is, smartness and realism) women do wonders for LTR’s raising children to 22 years old. https://therationalmale.com/2012/03/29/hb10/ If you rate looks (HB) on a 1-10 and self-esteem (SE) on a 1-10 scale, realistically you’ll want different ratios at different times. If you’re sport-fucking and have no desire for a LTR this ratio might be around HB9 to SE3, no lower than this though since a 3 (the way I’d rate it anyway)… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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Intelligence and Character aren’t the same things.

kfg
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Unless a person is at least 2 standard deviations above normal intelligence, which is generally held to be the “genius” threshold, any close, ongoing and cooperative association is difficult and frustrating, for the both of us.

But I am not a good reference model.

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@SJF

Many thanks for your thoughts and extract and link to @Rollo’s article, which I have now read with interest:

https://therationalmale.com/2012/03/29/hb10/

I have definitely been on the wrong end of the looks versus scale dynamic in the past with two LTRs:

(1) Ex-wife: HB5 versus SE8 — her looks diminished over time because she let herself go to seed, while her strident feminism only got worse. 😔

(2) Babushka: HB6 versus SE3 — she was completely in the territory of self-sabotage and self-destruction, which I failed to spot to my detriment.

TantumErgo

Sentient
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What a lot of you guys mean by “intelligent” is really “feminine”.

So I popped by 21Con today to scope out a ticket for Poland… And lo and behold could not find any links on the site?

How can this be? And Bobby Dino has stopped begging for dates in Warsaw.

Odd coincidence…

I haven’t read of a cancellation.

SJF
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“What a lot of you guys mean by “intelligent” is really “feminine”.

Yes.

It’s called: Having proper Girl Game.

Casey Wollberg
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This reminds me of the time not so long ago when ideologues called feminists invaded the new atheist movement and took it over, effectively destroying it in the process. This is something that happens in mass movements. If your community is starting to be plagued by ideologues, that is a sure sign it is in danger of foundering. Everyone who finds themselves invested in an idea to any degree should read the classic The True Believer, by eric hoffer.

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7817 For the platonic ideal of “True believer” thinking, see Bnonn and Foster’s twitter exchange: Twatter brings out a bad side in many people, those two are just a couple of examples. Foster’s snideness about the term “co-branding is a tell” is itself a tell; isn’t he supposed to lead by example and “meet people where they are”? Unfortunately, their attitudes and smug blindness to fact are way too typical in the Anglosphere churches, where pedestalizing women is extremely common. It’s as if entire sections of the Bible are invisible to them – “Yeah, Jezebel was a bad woman, but… Read more »

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Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience.

Or maybe they are just good a mimicry, which fools you.

Yollo Comanche
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Cracker Sanhedrin

Yollo Comanche
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Hindsight is 20/20

TantumErgo
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@Yollo Comanche

“Hindsight is 20/20”.

Absolutely, but hopefully it contributes to foresight for the next go-round.

If not, then you cannot learn from your mistakes, and you are doomed to the perpetual repetition of them… and this becomes a habit.

I know. 😊

TantumErgo

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Greetings, as millennial in my mid 20’s, 1 year into readings rollo’s works.I Just want to contribute here that my experience of months of following twitter’s so called “redpill” gurus accounts got me to a conclusion, that theyre actually purple pills and blue pills in denial according to this essays, Those big accounts with thousands followers tend to mislead a lot of men with their unique own moral compass, and when in debate, trying to bring others down by their “bad” characters and attacking the person instead of the ideas, Feeling pretty disappointed and betrayed. Rollo, roissy is still no1… Read more »

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@Yollo Comanche
Cracker Sanhedrin

Bnonn is in New Zealand. Atheist who converted.

Rudolph
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Anonymous Reader: Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience. Or maybe they are just good a mimicry, which fools you. Fools me that they’re confident or fools me that they’re intelligent? Sentient: What a lot of you guys mean by “intelligent” is really “feminine”. SJF replies: It’s called: Having proper Girl Game. By intelligent I mean actually intelligent: more than just not a dumb ass. I think “feminine” is a large part of “Girl Game.” No matter how smart she is or how many degrees she has she still needs to have feminine energy. I think though especially… Read more »

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This True Believer Eric Hoffer stuff is similar to how Vadim Zeland dealt with the same concept in his notion of Pendulums, which were Egregores — “thoughtforms” or “collective group minds”, autonomous psychic entities made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people.. https://medium.com/@chengeerlee/transurfing-of-reality-in-a-nutshell-a73b162fff85 2. Pendulums In accordance to Transurfing, people who think in the same direction create invisible energy-informational structures that directly affect us in a daily life. They are called “pendulums” or “egregores”. Essentially pendulum is sort of a “thought condensate” — a soul of a thing, idea, doctrine, organization, ideology or anything that has… Read more »

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There was a post on Medium that I came across by “Huntsman” called Truth Demands Action on July 4th that was an attempt to be a take-down piece on Rollo’s brand of Red Pill. I don’t see it as accomplishing its goal of criticism of Rollo’s brand. And I don’t think Rollo’s brand is limiting. Just like my comment over the weekend (which referenced the Ian Ironood’s essay) about using Rollo’s Red Pill brand as a jumping off point for men to use for their own purpose. My tribe of Red Pill brothers offline do agree that Rollo’s Brand of… Read more »

j
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“Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience”.
comment image

If you’re a model (especially a VS angel), in addition to being a television host + actress, ya can’t be shy, don’t ya know

IQ: 70 (Cognitively Impaired aka stupid)

Yet she’s still the longest girlfriend DiCaprio’s (who notoriously gets bored of girls quickly) ever had….

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Rudolph
Fools me that they’re confident or fools me that they’re intelligent?

Either one, or both.

kfg
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“Cognitively Impaired”

In old money: moron

Sentient
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Palma

You’ve seen “The Producers” right?

j
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@palma

“@J I said I needed more than looks, not necessarily IQ. Female energy and a fun persona would do it even if they are totally stupid”.

agreed. This was @TT’s original point, which started this discussion about “men not being interested if she has a mind” aka above average intelligence.

@Rudolph: “By intelligent I mean actually intelligent: more than just not a dumb ass”.

You can train a “dumb ass” to be feminine.
You can’t train a “dumb ass” to be intelligent.

j
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“You could compare that to a high IQ lawyercunt with no smile or persona or warmth”

Trainable:

https://twitter.com/ReignCrusher/status/1147066130424565760

Met a self proclaimed feminist lawyer girl. Few months into our relationship and she claims to no more share the feminism view.

Agreed. Most educated and woke women are feminists until they met a real man

Blaximus
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Great responses guys. This is how I learn.

Gracias.

Now, let’s try something.

Rate this girl posted by my man J –
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SJF
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@Blax

Rate the girls?

They are attractive enough to entertain the thought of getting to know them. Or socializing with them, or if single (or not), getting with them.

They meet some criteria. Form (including face), fit and figure.

And then? They are just girls, right?

That is just the starting line.

Alpha Jedi
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History repeats itself…as religions tarted a ideas and then became fragmented and denominational, so has it come with the RP sphere. Interesting times.

Yollo Comanche
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@Blax

I doubt Bar actually has a low IQ.

I bet what’s actually happening is they made that shit up about her to keep the Femcels and xenomorphs from spitting acid at her.

j
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That girl I posted was the cover model of the 2009 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and voted No. 1 on Maxim magazine’s Hot 100 list of 2012.

Still not my type tho.

Obviously the Instagram models you posted are hotter (at least to me), but I don’t believe anything I see online anymore. Especially with how easy it is to manipulate photos these days:
comment image

https://www.instagram.com/beauty.false

http://blog.aaronsleazy.com/index.php/2019/07/05/photoshop-was-yesterday-the-new-reality-of-female-image-manipulation/,

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SJF I have always said that HB ratings below 9-10 are going to vary between different men for a variety of reasons. I also say that many men have never seen a ” 10 ” irl ( tv, magazines, internet notwithstanding ). For the sake of argument, let’s say that out of 1,000 women I’ve seen upclose with mine own eyeballs in person, maybe I’ve seen 3 ” 10’s “. 9’s were a bit more, but not much. 7-8’s were more plentiful, but the majority were running right around that 5.5-7.5 range. That 7.5 range ain’t nothing to sneeze at… Read more »

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j
Still not my type tho

So what?

Returning to the actual topic of the essay, how many Blue Pill men actually argue from facts, rather than emotion? I suggest it’s close to zero, because the True Believers “ought” overrules everything else in their emotional heads.

It’s not just Titania McGrath who says “My feelings don’t care about your facts”. It’s every pedestalizing Traditional Conservative and their conservative feminist wife, keeping the family jewels in her purse for safety.

This is why trying to debate True Believers is very much like debating women. Because they are creatures of emotion. Just like women.

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Blaximus
So I believe I was imprinted at an early age. Pre internet.

Early experiences with a large emotional association dig deep. Elementary neuroplasticity at work.

Blaximus
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” That girl I posted was the cover model of the 2009 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and voted No. 1 on Maxim magazine’s Hot 100 list of 2012.”

But what does that even mean though?

Blaximus
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AR

Lol. Well in the end, the emotional experience with her should’ve turned me into a serial killer.

SJF
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@Blax “So I’m always interested in how guys see chicks and rate them.” I respect your interest. But this is a fools game. And guys like J. will buy into that. Not that there is anything wrong with J. Heh. If you back the truck up, a guy that isn’t deceiving himself will know attractiveness when he sees it. And then he might get asked what are you going to do about it? And then he might get inspired to do his best in quest. Remember in the old days here? I humble-bragged that my wife had an SMV higher… Read more »

foxguy
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SJF, Interesting essay you linked, the author was doing good up until he got to the end, then his whole theory fell apart. It’s based on the “save civilization/humans are social animals” premise. I get his hangup though, this to me was the hardest part of the red pill to accept, it took me years to accept the cold hard reality that we are fundamentally alone as men and get rid of the old programming and once I accepted it I was fundamentally a different person. He most likely will be there for some years, hypergamy supremacy as the core… Read more »

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@Foxguy Yes the guy writes very well and is interesting. I’m not sure what his agenda is. But it is half-way decent. And it’s not that Rollo’s Red Pill isn’t higher ordered Moral Law. Or Ideology. Or prescriptive striving. It was never meant to be, but as I mentioned, it can be a spring-board to that. And then you go on to state that we are fundamentally alone as men. That’s simply not true. It is a truism if you can’t find a tribe of men to resonate with. But you can and there are plenty of people (men) out… Read more »

theasdgamer
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“how many Blue Pill men actually argue from facts, rather than emotion?”

…about the same number as Red Pill men…the only real difference in most cases is whether a man has been mugged by society’s catering to women…frivorce…denial of parental rights…etc.

…you are a perfect picture of someone who makes decisions based on emotion…

Anonymous Reader
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Blaximus
Well in the end, the emotional experience with her should’ve turned me into a serial killer.

Always the contrarian.

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j
” That girl I posted was the cover model of the 2009 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and voted No. 1 on Maxim magazine’s Hot 100 list of 2012.”

Blaximus
But what does that even mean though?

Maybe “thirsty AFC’s are thirsty”.

Blaximus
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😆

rugby11
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Good Conversation

Novaseeker
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I have always said that HB ratings below 9-10 are going to vary between different men for a variety of reasons. I also say thamany men have never seen a ” 10 ” irl ( tv, magazines, internet notwithstanding ). For the sake of argument, let’s say that out of 1,000 women I’ve seen upclose with mine own eyeballs in person, maybe I’ve seen 3 ” 10’s “. 9’s were a bit more, but not much. 7-8’s were more plentiful, but the majority were running right around that 5.5-7.5 range. That 7.5 range ain’t nothing to sneeze at though. Below… Read more »

kfg
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“do you rate the women in South Beach and Boston according to the same scale, or do you rate them according to local market positioning”

Yes.

Rudolph
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SJF @Blax Rate the girls? They are attractive enough to entertain the thought of getting to know them. Or socializing with them, or if single (or not), getting with them. They meet some criteria. Form (including face), fit and figure. And then? They are just girls, right? That is just the starting line. @Blax. SJF is pretty much where I’m at on this. They avoid automatic disqualification but they aren’t my type. If J’s point is I’d smash it anyway even though she’s a moron I have to concede. But I’m not sure I’d push much past how far a… Read more »

Sigma
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Considering about 65% – 70% of all women are overweight, if a girl has a healthy body weight, she has a HB 7 starting point for me, and I add and subtract from that point.

theasdgamer
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Sentient
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Sorry Sigma… Can’t fudge the scale. Once more…. 10s – 9s who hit personal preference (I.e. hair color, eye color, ass shape etc.) 9s – exist solely on their looks (models, trophy wives, kept women) 8s – “Hollywood Pretty” – very beautiful but not as much as 9s, generally shorter. Compensate with some other skill/talent I.e. actress, singer, dancer, PR, Pharma detail girl, porn etc. 7s – the “smoking hawt” girls you see IRL out and about at the places you go to. 6s – attractive but have something off. I.e. plain face but tight body, beautiful face but bigger… Read more »

kfg
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In 1950 all the children were well above average:

kfg
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Which reminds me that it’s worth noting that during the famine the bulk of the fatalities were old men.

i.e. they starved themselves to give the children>women>younger men who would bear continuing responsibility for the care of the women and children a better chance at making it through.

Centuries
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“8s – “Hollywood Pretty” – very beautiful but not as much as 9s, generally shorter. Compensate with some other skill/talent I.e. actress, singer, dancer, PR, [[Pharma detail girl]], porn etc.”

Close to 30 years ago I happened to walk into a meeting of about 300 big pharma drug reps, mostly women. The sheer unbalanced representation of beauty was overwhelming. It is still a vivid memory.

Blaximus
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Nova & Sentient

I’ve always been curious about when pua teachers insist that guys go out to club(s)/Field and only game hb8’s-10’s , 19-24 years old – where the absolute fuck is this place located?

So what are all of these dudes online reporting when they say they snl’d a hawt hb9 in Random Club, in Kaskogie Michigan?

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@ Rudolph “@Blax. SJF is pretty much where I’m at on this. They avoid automatic disqualification but they aren’t my type. If J’s point is I’d smash it anyway even though she’s a moron I have to concede. But I’m not sure I’d push much past how far a disinterested attitude would get me. I’m not going to say she isn’t attractive but she isn’t what I’d go for. Leo’s women often come up in these sorts of conversations and rating looks discussions and I’m often indifferent to his girls. Maybe it is just my age. Stupid is boring even… Read more »

Sentient
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Centuries

Yup. Pfizer was particularly notorious. Who better to get Dr. SJF to reload?

Was with a small business owner and this rep came in and before she got to say a word he said loudly “whatever it is you’re selling, I’M buying”… Lol

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Blax

Well to them, because they have very limited experience being around beautiful girls, those are 9s…😂

And they are confused by makeup and clothes… A made up 7 never transmogrifies into a 9… Never.

But smart money is on they are simply full of shit.

Blaximus
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“And they are confused by makeup and clothes…

Yes!! Yes!!! Yes!!!

fleezer
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“I’ve always been curious about when pua teachers insist that guys go out to club(s)/Field and only game hb8’s-10’s , 19-24 years old – where the absolute fuck is this place located?” the thing that got me with the pua guys was, if your game is so tight, why the fuck don’t you target super hot super connected super wealthy girls on their birthday of age of majority and become a fucking prince of europe or something lol yareally preferred sleeping on scumbags piss stained couches i guess lol “So what are all of these dudes online reporting when they… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
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You don’t see any 9s because they’re all in the sack with Scribbler

IAS
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@Blax: I think I mentioned this imprinting idea years ago when I joined the site. I have the same experience, but with my first serious “crush”, when I was around 15 or so.

I’d be interested to know if others also had women of their favored type “imprinted” (for example, Sentient likes blondes).

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@IAS

Glasses!
(And that was when glasses were uncool and most everyone was wearing contacts)

SJF
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Yup. Pfizer was particularly notorious. Who better to get Dr. SJF to reload? Was with a small business owner and this rep came in and before she got to say a word he said loudly “whatever it is you’re selling, I’M buying”… Lol “Well to them, because they have very limited experience being around beautiful girls, those are 9s…😂 And they are confused by makeup and clothes… A made up 7 never transmogrifies into a 9… Never. But smart money is on they are simply full of shit.” Yes. Drug reps do age. And their industry is going downhill. And… Read more »

theasdgamer
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There’s one bartender about whom I asked, “What the hell is she doing tending bar? She could make hundreds of K as a swimsuit model?” Well, she’s too old to do swimsuits, but she’s a stunner, even without much makeup. I’d call her a 9.

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@ J “Kendall Jenner only returned to the runway this year after a short hiatus, but she still managed to become the highest-paid model of 2018. That’s all the more impressive when you consider that her salary was counted prior to this past Fashion Month, with a cutoff of June 2018. During that period of time, Jenner raked in $22 million. While that’s only 13 percent of her younger sister Kylie Jenner’s earnings ($166.5 million), calculated by Forbes, it’s almost twice as much as the model in the No. 2 slot: Karlie Kloss. Keep in mind, though, this is all… Read more »

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“There’s one bartender about whom I asked, “What the hell is she doing tending bar? She could make hundreds of K as a swimsuit model?” Well, she’s too old to do swimsuits, but she’s a stunner, even without much makeup. I’d call her a 9.
comment image

Blaximus
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http://cdn6.viralscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Kylie-Jenner.jpg

166.5 million huh?

God Bless Fiat Currency.

Sentient
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FFS

Kendall Jenner is a “celebrity”… Not a model. It’s A complete joke…

And the amount of money any model makes is irrelevant. We are discussing looks and looks alone.

Put your dog notions of status away.

For her she’s happy she is long gone from Buttfuckaruss or Duluth… On that face and bod.

Yollo Comanche
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It happens because ugly people are at war with pretty people.

You should see the goblins pairing up with eachother in south florida while they attend college and how they smugly accuse their more attractive cohorts of “immorality”.

Sentient
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Blax

Lol…. Beer Goggles are in fashion this year…

j
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@blax “where the absolute fuck is this place located?” The top clubs in big cities will have a couple of 8s and a few 9s. Second-tier clubs (the ones I mostly go to) have mostly 6s, couple 7s and a few 8s. For example, in the small PUA facebook group I’m in, the members live in places such as Bucharest, Romania, Copenhagen, Denmark, Stockholm Sweden, Oslo, Norway, Montreal, Canada, and NYC. Nobody from Grangeville, Idaho reportly banging scores of 9s unfortunately…. “Top-Paid Models of 2018 According to Forbess” Nah. Wrong person you’re arguing with. You’re gonna have to take that… Read more »

foxguy
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:), Blaximus , all right you got to crack up with the old gal bar picture. Ratings are subjective by guys, generally guys rate girls way higher than they really are. In order to get consensus you have to broaden out the ratings I find 8+ = Here it’s just subjective, your 8 could be my 10, etc. 5-7 = Middle of the pack most non fat ok face average girls go here 4-0 = Something obviously wrong like obese/bad face, etc. I personally have never liked blonds, have had a few chase me hard especially in high school so… Read more »

theasdgamer
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Lol, Blax. That broad is a stunner, all right. Wicked right cross.

Novaseeker
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I’ve always been curious about when pua teachers insist that guys go out to club(s)/Field and only game hb8’s-10’s , 19-24 years old – where the absolute fuck is this place located? So what are all of these dudes online reporting when they say they snl’d a hawt hb9 in Random Club, in Kaskogie Michigan? Well, you have the global scale, on the one hand, and then there’s the local scale, on the other (“that girl is a Kaskogie 9!”). Then there’s also, for some guys, the “hyperlocal scale” — i.e., “in this club, that girl is a 10!” (LOL!)… Read more »

wahoo Mcdaniels
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I’ve seen some pretty rough “tens” in my day ,hey at least they got some.

kfg
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“no way Kaskogie has any 10s above 17-18 years old.”

Yes, but the Michigan age of consent is 16.

Damon
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…and bingo was his name-o.

TT
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@TantumErgo “she was completely in the territory of self-sabotage and self-destruction, which I failed to spot to my detriment.” That’s about the riskiest mistake to make in relationships with women (and men too). They’ll angrily frustrate every attempt by you to introduce balance, peace, meaning, and direction toward anything good into the relationship/their life. They’ll hate you for doing that. (And since they need to think they want to better their life and good things, they’ll have to imagine you are doing this or that ill-intentioned/bad thing — which is of course very hard to lo and behold for someone… Read more »

TT
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“It does however have to control her arms, legs, eyes, persona, poon. Nipples etc.. in a way we find appealing. That’s not intelligence per se. But there is something in the brain doing that.” SEE? Then it’s almost impossible to find women with skills other than that (consider that “persona” means the surface shown to society, in other words, for instance, what we see on their Facebooks is their personas), because that is what men want. I am blaming nobody; just the luck of anyone who, in a market, as niche preferences is very tough, because he isn’t going to… Read more »

wahoo Mcdaniels
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“It does however have to control her arms, legs, eyes, persona, poon. Nipples etc.. in a way we find appealing.” Arms and legs maybe,eyes and persona 50% give or take. nipples and poontang no. Comparison Chart BASIS FOR COMPARISON VOLUNTARY MUSCLES INVOLUNTARY MUSCLES Also known as Striped, striated or skeletal muscles. Unstriped, non-striated, plain muscles. Shape Long, cylindrical and unbranched. Small and spindle-shaped. Type of cell Multinucleate. Uninucleate. Presence of nucleus The nucleus is present at the rim (Periphery). The nucleus is centrally placed. Sarcolemma It is thick. It is thin. Contraction is under the control of Central nervous system.… Read more »

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