“The Believers” vs. The Empiricists

I’ve been meaning to do a post about this for a while now, and given the present ideological schism in the Manosphere (still searching for a better term) I thought reposting this would be relevant to the discussion. This is from an old Purple Pill Debate thread on Reddit. I was made aware of it by Rian Stone about a year ago and I’ve returned to it often enough in commentary and Tweets that I felt it deserved a post and a discussion of its own here.

Now, I understand that the definitions of what constitutes a red pill understanding versus a blue pill outlook are always going to be subjective to the individual guy. The “red pill” and the “blue pill” have become so distorted recently that as terms, as loose brands, they’ve become effectively meaningless. Anyone who reads my work or has heard me opine about these terms already grasps what my own interpretations are. However, far too many disingenuous actors have entered this community of late and all have an interest in shifting those definitions to cater to their pet ideology. In fact, converting the Red Pill to be interpreted as an ideology rather than a praxeology (or a heuristic if you prefer) founded in an objective understanding of intersexual dynamics has been their primary goal.

All this redefining has done is (deliberately) confuse the purpose of understanding gender interrelations by inserting ideology into the mix. Often this is an effort at reprioritizing how interpreting intersexual dynamics ought to discussed. Most often it’s a conflict of the ‘correct’ way of approaching the interpreting of observable facts & data. So moralists believe in one goal for the interpretation while objectivists see another. The result is we talk past one another. Then one disavows the other, goes off to broadcast what he thinks is truth – according to their origination premise – and builds a brand based on that redefinition of “the red pill” according to them.

You’ll get a better understanding here (emphasis my own):

__________________________________________________________

Red Pill and Blue Pill people end up talking past each other because they cannot even agree on what they should be debating about. The sets of values they hold are completely disjointed. They cannot even agree on what a “debate” is, and what the goals of a “debate” are.

Red Pill people generally bring the following assumptions to a debate:

  • They believe that there is exactly one reality, and that truth is what accurately describes that reality. The better a statement describes reality, the more true it is. They are factual absolutists.
  • They believe that whether something is “good” or “bad” is a matter of opinion, and that all systems of morality are things societies invented to get a result, and it is therefore pointless to argue about whether something is “evil” or not, instead of about what effect it has. They are moral relativists.
  • They believe that the goal of a debate is to establish what the facts are, and how this knowledge can be used to control outcomes. They argue about what is true.
  • They believe that debates are a cooperative process between two or more people who have the shared goal of achieving a more accurate picture of absolute reality, and that, while people may stick vehemently to their positions, they can also reverse them on a dime if new information comes to light, because the only real attachment is to the truth. They believe debates occur between theories, not people. Thus questioning someone’s character is off-limits, because it is irrelevant.

Blue Pill people generally bring the following assumptions to a debate:

  • They believe that reality is subjective, and what is “true” is simply a matter of who you ask. What is called “truth” is simply a codification of someone’s perspective, and it is therefore pointless to argue about what is “true“. They are factual relativists.
  • They believe that there is exactly one set of moral laws, which human beings have gradually discovered in a historical climb towards ethical perfection (or degeneration). Certain people are ethically better or worse based not only on what they do, but also on what they believe. They believe that different ethical systems exist, but they can be ranked from ethically worst to ethically best based on a sort of meta-ethics whereby they can be tested for degree of compliance with the one absolute set of ethics that underlies reality. They are moral absolutists.
  • They believe that the goal of debate is to establish what is morally better, and what everyone should do. They argue about what is right.
  • They believe that debates are a competitive process between two people, who each have the goal of establishing their views about right and wrong by attaining a state of moral ascendancy over the other person. They believe that anyone who changes their views is revealing a flaw in their moral character (because their previous views were not morally correct), and must thereafter relinquish the moral high ground and submit their actions to the moral judgement of others (usually the person who won the debate). They believe debates occur between people, not ideas, for the precise purpose of establishing who should be allowed to set standards for the behavior of others (because they are morally superior). Thus, questioning someone’s character is not only relevant, it’s the whole point.

This is why Blue Pill adherents think “those Red Pill guys” are “misogynists” or bad people. Because they cannot imagine an analysis that does not occur for the purposes of judgement, much less one that doesn’t include any idea about what people “should” do.

This is why the Red Pill insists that the Blue Pill are willfully blind. Because, to them, anyone who doesn’t admit the truth must be unable to perceive it. They cannot imagine anyone not caring what the truth is.

This is why Blue Pillers keep thinking that Red Pillers are trying to restore the Dark Ages. They cannot imagine any group with shared views not having one moral agenda that they wish everyone to abide by.

This is why Red Pillers think that Blue Pill adherents must be hopelessly bad at understanding human social structures. They cannot imagine anyone not wanting to do things in the most effective possible way.

Here’s an example of this kind of misunderstanding in action:

Here we see an interaction between RP and BP regarding age of consent laws.

  • RP’s primary objective to propose an algorithm for making legal judgements about consent or lack of it, which he believes will best serve what the majority of people desire to see these laws do. He looks at the issue as an engineering problem, and he proposes a solution.
  • BP’s objective is to establish whether or RP is a bad person. If he can be gotten to agree to a statement which BP thinks of as diagnostic of “evilness”, then the debate can be won, and anything RP says can thereafter be dismissed as originating from an evil person.
  • BP says “All this so you can justify getting laid.”. BP thinks RP is trying to “justify” something according a set of moral rules, because to BP, every act has a moral valance, and anyone who wishes to do anything must at least be ready with a moral excuse.
  • RP has been arguing, meanwhile, about which metaphors best illustrate human social and mating dynamics. RP does not address the issue of right or wrong at all, and seems to believe BP is engaging with him on factual level.

Thus RP and BP cannot even agree on what the argument is about.

RP thinks right and wrong are a matter of opinion, and BP doesn’t care what the facts are.

__________________________________________________________

I imagine the discussion thread for this post is going to get pretty heated. However, I want to point out that a lot of what I’m seeing in the Manosphere at present is rooted in factual relativists attempting to establish what the “Red Pill” ought to mean to people, and thereby redefining it to suit their goals of couching any objective discussion in moralist terms.

What’s happening is that factual relativists want the Red Pill to be about what’s right or wrong according to their ideological bent. So they will bend over backwards to reinterpret what is actually an objectivist exploration of intersexual dynamics to fit their ‘interpretive headspace’ – or they will simply write off the Red Pill wholesale and say “Those Red Pill guys are just bitter, negative, misogynists” without a hint of their own irony.

Example: The realities of Hypergamy aren’t right or wrong, they simply are. In any of my numerous essays outlining Hypergamy, and for all my attempts to dispel the misconceptions about it, I’ve never once stated that Hypergamy was ‘evil‘ or that women’s nature is evil because of it. It’s simply a reproductive strategy that manifests per the realities of women’s nature and needs.

The factual relativists responds to this in two ways: First, is the nihilistic approach (Black Pill if you must) – Hypergamy conflicts with their personal interests and ideological bent. Thus, Hypergamy, or women’s inability (or choice) to police it for their betterment, or humanity’s betterment are evil. Second, is the approbation approach – “You talk about Hypergamy too much (or at all), it must be because you’re fundamentally a bad, damaged, morally compromised person.”

A debate never really occurs between these headspaces because the goals of the debate are never the same. Now, add to all this that factual relativists are appropriating the ‘red pill’ as their own “Brand of Me” and building revenue streams around their ideological interpretation of its original intent. Any counter argument proffered by factual absolutists is not only a challenge to their ego-investments, it’s also interpreted as an attack on their livelihoods.

In 2015 and again in 2018 I made this point:

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

Unfortunately, this is where we are at today in the modern ‘Manosphere‘. The reason I’m attacked with accusations of enforcing some ideological purity tests for the Red Pill is directly attributable to the mindset of the factual relativists; whose livelihoods are now dependent upon the redefinition of whatever the Hell the “Red Pill” means to them or should mean to those they broadcast it to.

So, I become a ‘Cult Leader‘ because their minds can only think in terms of ideology. Again, the factual relativist never leaves the ideological Frame in which they believe the debate takes place.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

260 comments on ““The Believers” vs. The Empiricists

  1. @Palmasailor

    “The outcome of this shit will be Darwinian!”

    The problem being that men are programmed to (at best) not care if women are privileged over them/harass them, and only seek to one-up other men.
    Few things your average men enjoys than seeing a woman privileged unjustly over other men — sometimes over himself.
    They think it helps their reproductive strategy… of course it’s not conscious it’s wired instincts.

    So what is there that could stop the trend? Nothing and nobody.
    And social/cultural trends that have no checks indeed tend to grow out of proportion…

  2. Lesbian World Cup on…

    Disney premiers live action Mulan trailer…

    every other corpocrat propaganda short GRRL themed…

    Zeus… bring fire…

  3. Zeus brings lightning (which can start fires).

    Vulcan brings fire. And lava. And a big ass hammer.

  4. Zeus brings lightning (which can start fires).
    Nah
    as IRL says ‘Another pathology piggybacking to get normalized. Slowly boiling that frog.’

    the Chinese love fried frogs legs and are licking their collective lips for the frog to be done.

  5. YL:

    ““women’s studies” a legitimate science or social activism built around feminist ideology?”

    The primary purpose is to give jobs to incompetent people in universities. WS is also used for social activism.

    “The word “ideology” may have a negative connotation, but it is quite clear that both TRP reddit and Rollo’s The Rational Male are HIGHLY ideological.”

    As soon as Rollo tried to provide support from “science” (evo-psychobabblology), TRP acquired an ideological frame. So, in my view, TRP is both praxology and ideology. TRP relies heavily upon a great deal of anecdotal evidence from people who are heavily invested in learning about human mating. Their focus will be clear and continual and I suspect that they are very accurate observers about human mating. Not rigorous and not academic, but very useful.

    “Here are some cherries from the TRP reddit:

    (A) She’s not yours. It’s just your turn.”

    If a girl is riding the CC, then this seems obvious.

    “(B) All women are like that.”

    In the context of human mating, this is generally true as regards how women’s brains are wired for sex.

    “(C) She’s riding the cock carousel.”

    I don’t see where there’s a problem here. From my own anecdotal evidence, I find lots of young women who have had many different boyfriends and short term mating partners.

    “(D) Don’t be a white knight.”

    This seems trivially obvious. Why should a man risk anything to help a woman in whom he has no investment?

  6. @TT

    “men clearly have never been interested in their partner having a mind”

    Clearly, a mind in a woman isn’t necessary for short term mating, but for LTRs, it’s essential for many men.

    “I don’t think that market transactions require meeting of minds though.”

    Well, a meeting of the minds is one of the main principles of contracts. And if you’re talking about a marketplace, then contracts are part of the game.

  7. Each of the sexes has developed what was mostly in demand from the other sex, men clearly have never been interested in their partner having a mind — just like women have never been interested in “honesty” if honesty is to mean something beyond a deceptive dress of honesty + disposition to take their orders and be of material/economic use to them and their family (“He should love not only me, but also my family” translated for you).

    Careful there. This right here could be a dangerous assumption.

    Men that only want pretty airheads are taking on as much ” risk ” as men who put a lot of stock in requiring super high intelligence in their women. Yin and yang is the order.

    Quick census of commenters please : how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male?

    I’ve seen guys that thought the woman in their lives were basically dumb because they didn’t ” man-logic ” well at all, causing them to miss the larger picture and getting played like PlayStation, while not seeing it coming.

    They’re only dumber if you don’t grasp an understanding and gage them by make standards.

    Example, many women value honesty if you know how they feel about how that honesty is expressed. Most men in various situations can value ” brutal honesty “. It’s when dealing with the average female, it’s best to have a tact they can understand and recognize while leaving the brutality somewhere else – unless you get what they consider the right level of feelz inducing honesty.

    It’s like training cats to follow commands.I

    I think outcome is important. Judge based on outcome using proper technique/understanding of the situational landscape. You wouldn’t go into a job interview and state ” you motherfuckers would be batshit crazy not to hire me… “.

    Unless you’re not interested in being employed in the first place. Lol, the ensuing poverty will be your choice.

  8. @theasdgamer

    In regards to your last post, … it looks like we are in complete agreement — and you worded it better than I would have.

    Just to clarify, there is no dispute over (A)-(D) — I was simply using them as examples of …. perhaps we could call them red pill memes or red pill-isms. You didn’t necessarily need to address them.

  9. “how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male?”

    As long as she can understand my sarcastic sense of humor, and can read what I want without me having to be be explicit (high Emotional/Social Intelligence) (she “just gets it” ™ ) I don’t care if she didn’t graduate from Harvard with Cum laude.

    And its not different than a male’s intelligence lol. There’s IQ and EQ.

    “The IQ measures your intellectual skill level. It measures your ability to think logically, absorb information, transfer knowledge and solve problems“..

    “The EQ measures your emotional skill level. It measures your ability to understand your emotions, to control your emotional reactions, to motivate yourself, to understand social situations and to communicate well with others. They take care of the impression of themselves they exude on other people. This is the hardest skillset because it requires “…a delicate balance between managing and controlling the image you portray to others and being reasonably “authentic” and letting others see the true self.”

    Women place higher demand in their partner’s IQ than men do in women, for the reason I highlighted.

  10. J

    Sup man?😁

    Women can also have high ” IQ” as defined. It’s not widespread because it’s not what most gals believe men will find attractive ( at least the smarter ones ). Unless a chick is a feminist, they will take a more submissive role. Like when you say ” get my humor/jokes “, they will be smart enough to grasp differing forms of humor while not necessarily wanting to compete or outjoke.

    I agree with Palma though, I need intelligence for the longer haul or even just spending significant time with a chick. When guys say that they often get tired of women, I think most of that might come from initially not caring about her intelligence or humor quotient because hawt with great tits. The 30th time you see those tits, you’ll have an epiphany if that’s all there really is.

    But if you only plan on seeing them a couple of times here and there, you’re golden.

  11. Rollo in the OP

    BP’s objective is to establish whether or RP is a bad person. If he can be gotten to agree to a statement which BP thinks of as diagnostic of “evilness”, then the debate can be won, and anything RP says can thereafter be dismissed as originating from an evil person.

    Another label used is “bitter”. Blue pill men will accuse Red Pill realists of being “bitter” towards women for simply stating facts such as “women are hypergamous”. This is generally emotional, not rational. In fact, the vast majority of Blue Pill positions are based on emotion along the lines of “Women are Wonderful”. This is especially strong among churchgoing men, who are very prone to White Knighting.

    The accusation of “bitter” in the emotional context is not as strong or intense as “evil” but the obvious attempt is still one of disqualification. Who cares what some “bitter loser” has to say, after all? Women will sometimes ask in a rhetorical way “Who hurt you?”, again an emotional approach with the implication that Red Pill truth can be trivially dismissed – it’s a personal problem, nothing more.

    Replying to emotional appeals with facts is bad Game. We should keep that in mind.

  12. “It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.”

  13. Another excellent essay, Rollo. I haven’t commented here in quite awhile, but I have still been on here and following every single essay for over six years. TRM remains my go-to RP information resource. Your work helped me change my life and I’ll never forget it. Not easy to find this kind of clear, factual, non-biased information out there anywhere else. If it exists elsewhere in such a comprehensive and scholarly form, I’ve not yet discovered it. Thank you once again for sharing all of this and keeping it going with passion and purpose.

  14. Meanwhile, I took down another new hottie last night. HB9, 19yo. Submissive. Bareback. Loved being dommed hardcore. I have to say, she was perhaps one of my best lovers ever, actually. I have another lined up for later in the week, lol. Gonna be 57 tomorrow, hehe. First tall girl for me in a long time, 5’11”, me barely 5’8″, and she still called me Daddy. I don’t do “field reports” but this is more of my “digital funnel” approach to gaming paying off extraordinarily well.

    Girls qualify and select in to be dommed by me on the dating sites (use only hookup sites and focus on new and active girls), text, skype, sending little vids and pics, facetime, snap etc. All i need do is meet them in public via cold approach, or over some dating app and the rest just flows. I only end up actually meeting the ones who are DTF and be my sub. I screen 100s of girls and very few make it past my screens. Hint – what I’m screening for is actual interest and attraction. Because it’s all digital, i can do this with maybe 5 hours of effort a week, lol. Like you guys who go out “sarging” are so old school. My ‘catchment area’ is a 150 mile radius. Thursday night’s “date”? We aren’t even meeting in public first. She’s just going to come to the hotel I get near where she lives with her parents (same with the one last night, she lives with her single mommy). She’s 20…HB7 from the neck up but an HB9 body. She lives 80 miles from me, I’d never meet her “sarging”. She craves real dominance and that’s actually hard for her to find. As I get better at this, girls like her sense it on me. The HB9 from last night? No discussion is even required, I just go behind where she is sitting, put my one arm around her neck, in a gentle half nelson, the other hand sliding down her shirt, my thumb from the other hand pushing into her mouth – she moans, and it’s on.

    For a woman, submission is the temporary cessation of her hypergamous desires and the always present fear women have due to feeling physically vulnerable. The act of submitting is self-fulfilling in a way, you must be high value if she submitted. She craves release from her searching and fear and when she submits to me, she’s getting that release.

    There is something amazingly Red Pill about being very dominant sexually with a woman. It’s like ‘Masculinity on Max Setting” or something. I summon up my feral desire for her and unleash it. this is what the sub is craving, the unleashing of your intense desire, the hotter she is, the more she wants to see it, fyi as she needs her high smv validated by a high SMV man.

    The entire act is incredibly intense and physical. Sweating profusely, slamming and fucking furiously and everything else. You have to be really “on” and basically have to flip her around all over the place and just use her. It’s so innately masculine at some level. Hint: This is the reason I only pursue very hot women as I cannot work up the same feral desire for an average looking woman.

    The release I get from such an encounter is hard to describe. It’s nothing like “duty sex” from my wife back in the day, fyi. It’s not even like the feeling i would get after girlfriend sex, which is more tame and nice and you and the girl take turns running things and she’s as much in charge as you are. I literally laid in bed and started giggling after I finished. Like I was giddy and spent and all was right with the world. She was so happy, having been thoroughly ravished. “You broke my back – that’s a compliment”. I’m not in great shape, I’m 57 – I make it all up with attitude and who I am. 3 inches shorter and she’s calling me Daddy and loving submitting to me.

    My point? It’s not just about sex. There is something much more profound going on in a dom/sub relationship that is innately masculine and feminine.

    Last. I got here via correctly interpreting the Red Pill. I continuously hector you guys about misusing “alpha’ and “beta” as personality archetypes, but none of you even pay any serious attention. I tell you to get the fuck off the interwebs and to spend less time in the digital manosphere but nope, you guys just continue mentally masturbating on this site and others.

    It’s via internalizing this that I got all my growth as a man. Not by commenting about it. Not by parsing terms like “ideology” or wasting a single fucking second on the douches in the manosphere – which is most of them at this point. Oh yeah – in case you missed it, the manosphere is already over. And you know why? Truly high value men wouldn’t waste their time being such a “little deal” as AJ or these other fatuous cunts. Like get this – the entire 21 Con line up wouldn’t make it through the first 15 minutes of a job interview with me for an entry level sales job. They don’t possess the general intelligence or social intelligence that a good rep needs. They are low value men trying to pretend they are high value, lol.

    You guys keep up all this engagement with ideology and the coffee klatch that is the manosphere. I’ll go out and have an amazing masculine, high value life and continue to bang women you 38yo guys can’t even imagine having. But hey – you know better cuz you write cool comments here and on Reddit and Youtube and Twitter and that Discord server lol, and oyu are focused on parsing the last idiotic comment made here or quipping or whatever. And get this, you young guys – that’s okay for the older guys who’ve already “arrived”. KFG, Blax, Palma, Sentient, SJF – they’re giving back to you youngsters. They aren’t your peers. Many of you would cut off your left nut to have the life they lived. You are lucky they take the time to help you guys, but most seem not to realize it.

  15. @ Blaximus

    “Quick census of commenters please : how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male?”

    For me intelligence in a woman counts… in large amounts. 😊

    To seduce a woman’s mind is often the gateway to seducing her body, and so she actually has to have a mind in the first place.

    Seduce a woman’s mind, the seat of her imagination, and she will come back for more… again and again.

    I have never met a woman for whom IMAGINING what it would be like to fuck me was an essential requirement for actually wanting to fuck me.

    TantumErgo

  16. @Rollo

    Excellent article which spells out the dangers of ideology versus praxeology, and absolutism versus relativism.

    The starting point on my journey into an RP mindset has to begin with this epithet on truth from Marcus Aurelius, stoic philosopher and ‘the last of the five good Emperors’ of the Roman Empire:

    ‘Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact.
    Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.’

    So, on the face of it, truth, as espoused by Marcus Aurelius, appears to be ‘relative’ — but this is too simple a conclusion to reach.

    I believe that truth — and the truth of RP phenomena — are both absolute (ie women are just ‘like that’), and also relative (eg how does RP ‘truth’ inform MY experience of intersexual relations, AND how does my experience of intersexual relations shed light on this RP ‘truth’ that I seek to internalise?)

    Above all, for me, RP is experiential, and experience is the hardest yet best teacher.

    I need to learn and understand the theory and phenomenological concepts of RP to serve as my guide and to ‘arm’ me in the face of womenkind’s sollipstic and often harshly mercenary treatment of menkind (in which I have been at the sharp end more times than I care to be in future).

    But without putting any of this into practice — experience — I cannot actually learn anything, and it will all be meaningless: engagement is everything.

    TantumErgo

  17. Blaximus

    Quick census of commenters please : how many of y’all don’t care at all about a mate/gf at least having average or above average intelligence, understanding that this intelligence is different than that of a male?

    I don’t care to go out with dumb girls. I have to do too much of the work. There has to be “something” going on in there to work with. A girl needs her own “Girl Game” as it were. She needs confidence herself. It takes two to tango and all that.

    We pile on guys for having bad game as the cause of their woman troubles but I think we don’t give nearly enough credence to the idea that women have crap game of their own. There are a lot of oblivious women out there. Some of it is hypergamous and culturally induced blindness but some measure of it is their own lack of confidence.

    Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience. A girl doesn’t need “guy logic” but she need at least understand that there is “guy logic.”

    1. @Rudolpn
      @Blaximus

      “We pile on guys for having bad game as the cause of their woman troubles but I think we don’t give nearly enough credence to the idea that women have crap game of their own. There are a lot of oblivious women out there. Some of it is hypergamous and culturally induced blindness but some measure of it is their own lack of confidence.

      Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience. A girl doesn’t need “guy logic” but she need at least understand that there is “guy logic.””

      You’ve hit the nail on the head! Oblivious, dumb — and above all lazy — girls / women hold no interest for me.

      The challenge is when I come across a woman is intelligent but lacks confidence … that can be especially tricky if she is fundamentally an introvert, because then at the back of my mind is the question as to whether she also has low self-esteem issues …

      TantumErgo

  18. Yes, Tantum

    The discussion goes more into the fact of High Self Esteem vs. Low Self Esteem.

    High Self-Esteem, competent. feminine (which incorporates intelligence in the the other sex–that is, smartness and realism) women do wonders for LTR’s raising children to 22 years old.

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/03/29/hb10/

    If you rate looks (HB) on a 1-10 and self-esteem (SE) on a 1-10 scale, realistically you’ll want different ratios at different times. If you’re sport-fucking and have no desire for a LTR this ratio might be around HB9 to SE3, no lower than this though since a 3 (the way I’d rate it anyway) would indicate the threshhold for self-destructive personality disorders. If you’re looking for a companion for the long haul of monogamy, then you’ll adjust your ratio accordingly. An HB8+ to an SE 5-7 might be ideal. It’s when you perceive imbalances in the ratio that is cause for concern. For instance an HB7 with an SE of 8 (too self-important for her looks). Or extremes like HB2 to an SE of 9 (most rad-feminists, easily avoidable) and an HB9+ to an SE of 1 or 2 (the suicidal death spiral girl).

    It’s all in the balance my sons.

    1. @SJF

      Many thanks for your thoughts and extract and link to @Rollo’s article, which I have now read with interest:

      https://therationalmale.com/2012/03/29/hb10/

      I have definitely been on the wrong end of the looks versus scale dynamic in the past with two LTRs:

      (1) Ex-wife: HB5 versus SE8 — her looks diminished over time because she let herself go to seed, while her strident feminism only got worse. 😔

      (2) Babushka: HB6 versus SE3 — she was completely in the territory of self-sabotage and self-destruction, which I failed to spot to my detriment.

      TantumErgo

  19. Unless a person is at least 2 standard deviations above normal intelligence, which is generally held to be the “genius” threshold, any close, ongoing and cooperative association is difficult and frustrating, for the both of us.

    But I am not a good reference model.

  20. What a lot of you guys mean by “intelligent” is really “feminine”.

    So I popped by 21Con today to scope out a ticket for Poland… And lo and behold could not find any links on the site?

    How can this be? And Bobby Dino has stopped begging for dates in Warsaw.

    Odd coincidence…

    I haven’t read of a cancellation.

  21. “What a lot of you guys mean by “intelligent” is really “feminine”.

    Yes.

    It’s called: Having proper Girl Game.

  22. This reminds me of the time not so long ago when ideologues called feminists invaded the new atheist movement and took it over, effectively destroying it in the process. This is something that happens in mass movements. If your community is starting to be plagued by ideologues, that is a sure sign it is in danger of foundering. Everyone who finds themselves invested in an idea to any degree should read the classic The True Believer, by eric hoffer.

  23. 7817

    For the platonic ideal of “True believer” thinking, see Bnonn and Foster’s twitter exchange:

    Twatter brings out a bad side in many people, those two are just a couple of examples. Foster’s snideness about the term “co-branding is a tell” is itself a tell; isn’t he supposed to lead by example and “meet people where they are”?

    Unfortunately, their attitudes and smug blindness to fact are way too typical in the Anglosphere churches, where pedestalizing women is extremely common. It’s as if entire sections of the Bible are invisible to them – “Yeah, Jezebel was a bad woman, but Not All Women Are Like That”, just for one example.

    It should be interesting to see if Foster follows through on being interviewed by Anthony Johnson or one of the others, and what that sounds like. Maybe Foster will put an image up on his web site of his wife wearing a “Make Women Great Again” ball cap?

    Men such as Bnonn and Foster are an obvious “tell” why the churches are beta factories.

  24. Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience.

    Or maybe they are just good a mimicry, which fools you.

    1. @Yollo Comanche

      “Hindsight is 20/20”.

      Absolutely, but hopefully it contributes to foresight for the next go-round.

      If not, then you cannot learn from your mistakes, and you are doomed to the perpetual repetition of them… and this becomes a habit.

      I know. 😊

      TantumErgo

  25. Greetings, as millennial in my mid 20’s, 1 year into readings rollo’s works.I Just want to contribute here that my experience of months of following twitter’s so called “redpill” gurus accounts got me to a conclusion, that theyre actually purple pills and blue pills in denial according to this essays, Those big accounts with thousands followers tend to mislead a lot of men with their unique own moral compass, and when in debate, trying to bring others down by their “bad” characters and attacking the person instead of the ideas, Feeling pretty disappointed and betrayed. Rollo, roissy is still no1 IMHO

  26. Anonymous Reader:

    Confident girls tend to be intelligent in my experience.

    Or maybe they are just good a mimicry, which fools you.

    Fools me that they’re confident or fools me that they’re intelligent?

    Sentient:

    What a lot of you guys mean by “intelligent” is really “feminine”.

    SJF replies:

    It’s called: Having proper Girl Game.

    By intelligent I mean actually intelligent: more than just not a dumb ass.

    I think “feminine” is a large part of “Girl Game.” No matter how smart she is or how many degrees she has she still needs to have feminine energy. I think though especially these days since we’ve been teaching women to be men it takes an intelligent woman to even know what feminine energy is let alone be confident enough to express it.

    I’d make a distinction between “feminine” and “Lady-like” or “A Lady.” The joke that goes around about chivalry not being dead but having followed along to wherever it is “being Lady-like” has gone. It takes intelligence (both emotional and intellectual) for a woman to be a “Lady” (though I would entertain it being a matter of training and self-control but then a certain level of intellect is required to be taught) while these days “feminine” is a much lower bar.

  27. This True Believer Eric Hoffer stuff is similar to how Vadim Zeland dealt with the same concept in his notion of Pendulums, which were Egregores — “thoughtforms” or “collective group minds”, autonomous psychic entities made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people..

    https://medium.com/@chengeerlee/transurfing-of-reality-in-a-nutshell-a73b162fff85

    2. Pendulums

    In accordance to Transurfing, people who think in the same direction create invisible energy-informational structures that directly affect us in a daily life.

    They are called “pendulums” or “egregores”.

    Essentially pendulum is sort of a “thought condensate” — a soul of a thing, idea, doctrine, organization, ideology or anything that has admirers, supporters, followers, and fanatics.
    There are many different kinds of pendulums.

    Pendulums can be religious, political, familial, national or corporate. A pendulum can reveal itself during some massive public event, a football game for example. Many material things that we value start to have pendulums, for example, new iPhone or money.

    Once they appear pendulums can put people that created them under control. They don’t have a consciousness. Their sole purpose of existence is to draw energy from the followers.
    The bigger the followership that feeds the pendulum with energy the more powerful is the pendulum. If the amount of followers decreases its vibrations die out and it dissipates.
    Most of the pendulums have destructive nature because they drain energy from their followers and oppress them. Pronounced examples of pendulums are the pendulums of war, economic crisis, and criminal gangs.

    A pendulum opposes its followers to other groups (We are good and they are bad). A pendulum aggressively accuses everyone that didn’t decide to become a follower and tries either to attract or to neutralize/destroy him.

    It doesn’t matter whether you love or hate something, it doesn’t matter if you fight for it or against it. In both cases, you are swinging a pendulum and it becomes stronger by feeding on your energy. A pendulum doesn’t care if the energy is negative or positive, both work equally well.

    The main objective of the pendulum is to hook you up. The means are not important, the goal is to keep you busy thinking about it giving away your mental energy. The most common method of getting access to your energy by pendulum is disbalancing you. When you lose your balance you start to “swing” on the frequency of a pendulum allowing it to gain more momentum. A pendulum may control you with fear, inferiority complexes, sense of guilt, and false importance.

    For instance, when a pendulum captures your mental energy, your attention in a loop and you tune into its resonance frequency — you get mad, annoyed, feel anger and resent. By doing this you give away your energy at the same time moving to the variation where there is an excess of the things that you are futilely trying to avoid. You start to have a feeling that things that you afraid of, despise, or hate, chase you everywhere.

    You can’t fight a pendulum. There are only two ways to get out of the influence of a pendulum: cause it to collapse or extinguish it.

    So the second rule of Transerfing is:

    In order to get rid of a pendulum, first, you need to admit that it exists and it has a right to do so. You have to calm down and lose interest towards it i.e. ignore it. By doing so you will deprive it of your mental energy.

    When you are calm and indifferent towards it you can save your energy and use it to transfer to positive variations of life. If you start to get annoyed simply “rent yourself out”, step outside of the situation and become an observer, not an active participant.

    Extinguishing of a pendulum requires certain mastery. Basically, you have to start doing offbeat unpredictable actions that will cause a dissonance and disrupt the scenario of a pendulum.
    Of course, not all pendulums are destructive. There are many harmless pendulums like a pendulum of sport and healthy lifestyle.

    Medium (the blog platform) is a pendulum too. It has its gravity, and many people including me feed it with energy of attention. But energy structures like this are beneficial for followers on an individual level and as a group.

    I don’t believe this Rollo Tomassi Red Pill brand and various red pill co-brands is an egregore. There are healthy and beneficial egregores. Best not be caught up in unhealthy ones.

  28. There was a post on Medium that I came across by “Huntsman” called Truth Demands Action on July 4th that was an attempt to be a take-down piece on Rollo’s brand of Red Pill.

    I don’t see it as accomplishing its goal of criticism of Rollo’s brand.

    And I don’t think Rollo’s brand is limiting. Just like my comment over the weekend (which referenced the Ian Ironood’s essay) about using Rollo’s Red Pill brand as a jumping off point for men to use for their own purpose.

    My tribe of Red Pill brothers offline do agree that Rollo’s Brand of Red Pill might limit other men as described in the following article, but it is not self limiting for us, because we fancy ourselves as limitless. It doesn’t take down anything. Because we are men and have purpose and mission. We aren’t clinical retards.

    https://medium.com/@thehuntsmanonline/truth-demands-action-9c589be2c588

    And have other motivators. Both within and out of ourselves.

    And we are not afraid of, nor strangers, to Action.

  29. Rudolph
    Fools me that they’re confident or fools me that they’re intelligent?

    Either one, or both.

  30. @palma

    “@J I said I needed more than looks, not necessarily IQ. Female energy and a fun persona would do it even if they are totally stupid”.

    agreed. This was @TT’s original point, which started this discussion about “men not being interested if she has a mind” aka above average intelligence.

    @Rudolph: “By intelligent I mean actually intelligent: more than just not a dumb ass”.

    You can train a “dumb ass” to be feminine.
    You can’t train a “dumb ass” to be intelligent.

  31. @Blax

    Rate the girls?

    They are attractive enough to entertain the thought of getting to know them. Or socializing with them, or if single (or not), getting with them.

    They meet some criteria. Form (including face), fit and figure.

    And then? They are just girls, right?

    That is just the starting line.

  32. History repeats itself…as religions tarted a ideas and then became fragmented and denominational, so has it come with the RP sphere. Interesting times.

  33. @Blax

    I doubt Bar actually has a low IQ.

    I bet what’s actually happening is they made that shit up about her to keep the Femcels and xenomorphs from spitting acid at her.

  34. That girl I posted was the cover model of the 2009 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and voted No. 1 on Maxim magazine’s Hot 100 list of 2012.

    Still not my type tho.

    Obviously the Instagram models you posted are hotter (at least to me), but I don’t believe anything I see online anymore. Especially with how easy it is to manipulate photos these days:

    https://i.redd.it/u6kcd3fvae421.jpg

    https://www.instagram.com/beauty.false

    http://blog.aaronsleazy.com/index.php/2019/07/05/photoshop-was-yesterday-the-new-reality-of-female-image-manipulation/,

  35. SJF

    I have always said that HB ratings below 9-10 are going to vary between different men for a variety of reasons. I also say that many men have never seen a ” 10 ” irl ( tv, magazines, internet notwithstanding ).

    For the sake of argument, let’s say that out of 1,000 women I’ve seen upclose with mine own eyeballs in person, maybe I’ve seen 3 ” 10’s “. 9’s were a bit more, but not much. 7-8’s were more plentiful, but the majority were running right around that 5.5-7.5 range. That 7.5 range ain’t nothing to sneeze at though.

    Below the 9 range, things get personal and more subjective. So I’d like to see what other dudes here think.

    The girl I lost my virginity to left an impression on my mind that has to play into how attractive I find a woman. ( even though she turned out to be the Bitch from Hell ). She had the same racial mixture as Daphne Joy ( who I’d only seen a few years back. Bitch gives me flashbacks )

    https://celebmafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/daphne-joy-in-a-red-bikini-in-mykonos-06-21-2018-5.jpg

    So I believe I was imprinted at an early age. Pre internet.

    So I’m always interested in how guys see chicks and rate them. Looking for the variability.

  36. j
    Still not my type tho

    So what?

    Returning to the actual topic of the essay, how many Blue Pill men actually argue from facts, rather than emotion? I suggest it’s close to zero, because the True Believers “ought” overrules everything else in their emotional heads.

    It’s not just Titania McGrath who says “My feelings don’t care about your facts”. It’s every pedestalizing Traditional Conservative and their conservative feminist wife, keeping the family jewels in her purse for safety.

    This is why trying to debate True Believers is very much like debating women. Because they are creatures of emotion. Just like women.

  37. Blaximus
    So I believe I was imprinted at an early age. Pre internet.

    Early experiences with a large emotional association dig deep. Elementary neuroplasticity at work.

  38. ” That girl I posted was the cover model of the 2009 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and voted No. 1 on Maxim magazine’s Hot 100 list of 2012.”

    But what does that even mean though?

  39. AR

    Lol. Well in the end, the emotional experience with her should’ve turned me into a serial killer.

  40. @Blax

    “So I’m always interested in how guys see chicks and rate them.”

    I respect your interest. But this is a fools game.

    And guys like J. will buy into that. Not that there is anything wrong with J. Heh.

    If you back the truck up, a guy that isn’t deceiving himself will know attractiveness when he sees it.

    And then he might get asked what are you going to do about it?

    And then he might get inspired to do his best in quest.

    Remember in the old days here? I humble-bragged that my wife had an SMV higher than me? Shit, one of my buddies from here disabused me of that notion, semi-quick.

    On the other hand, I never had to apologize to myself for not sitting across the table from or fucking someone that wasn’t up to my standards, pretty wise.

  41. SJF,

    Interesting essay you linked, the author was doing good up until he got to the end, then his whole theory fell apart. It’s based on the “save civilization/humans are social animals” premise. I get his hangup though, this to me was the hardest part of the red pill to accept, it took me years to accept the cold hard reality that we are fundamentally alone as men and get rid of the old programming and once I accepted it I was fundamentally a different person. He most likely will be there for some years, hypergamy supremacy as the core value within the culture ,is at its core anti civilization, it’s also anti social. Civilization is a male institution not a female one. It’s the abyss……..

    Once you accept, you realize it’s not all negative and positive results came come from it, but first you got to get rid of the false expectations/underpinnings. Even small unit/small tribe formation is possible currently, western civilization at large is pretty cooked but this is the way of the world.

    He does bring up some interesting points for Rollo, which I myself think are weak points:
    -Do women have agency?
    -Does the population at large of western societies have agency?
    -The Red Pill is negative at first, this should be acknowledged.
    -With the exception of Rollo, there are a lot of “Red Pill” guys putting out plenty of prescriptions(Rich Cooper, ADJ, MLD)

    All in all interesting essay.

    https://medium.com/@thehuntsmanonline/truth-demands-action-9c589be2c588

  42. @Foxguy

    Yes the guy writes very well and is interesting. I’m not sure what his agenda is. But it is half-way decent. And it’s not that Rollo’s Red Pill isn’t higher ordered Moral Law. Or Ideology. Or prescriptive striving. It was never meant to be, but as I mentioned, it can be a spring-board to that.

    And then you go on to state that we are fundamentally alone as men. That’s simply not true. It is a truism if you can’t find a tribe of men to resonate with. But you can and there are plenty of people (men) out there to hang out with. Some of the carving out your tribe takes leadership. But so be it. Burden of Performance.

    And there are abysses. I you create them by surrounding yourself with chaos and non-Order. But there is also clarity without noise. You can look into the abyss. And dismiss the abyss.

    And in your second paragraph you say just that. Good for you.

    He does bring up some interesting points for Rollo, which I myself think are weak points:
    -Do women have agency?

    They have their own brand of agency.
    And we dance with them if they are worthy or valuable to our agency in an equilibrium.

    -Does the population at large of western societies have agency?

    Yes,it does, collectively, but does that agency serve you or drag you along, or leave you in the dust. See my previous comment about Pedulums sucking the life out of you if you subscribe to them.

    -The Red Pill is negative at first, this should be acknowledged.

    So what? Kubler-Ross Stages…The five stages of Unplugging…

    -With the exception of Rollo, there are a lot of “Red Pill” guys putting out plenty of prescriptions(Rich Cooper, Rian Stone, MLD)

    Yes!

    And there is offline tribes too. With prescriptions galore. Ask me how I know that.

  43. “how many Blue Pill men actually argue from facts, rather than emotion?”

    …about the same number as Red Pill men…the only real difference in most cases is whether a man has been mugged by society’s catering to women…frivorce…denial of parental rights…etc.

    …you are a perfect picture of someone who makes decisions based on emotion…

  44. Blaximus
    Well in the end, the emotional experience with her should’ve turned me into a serial killer.

    Always the contrarian.

  45. j
    ” That girl I posted was the cover model of the 2009 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and voted No. 1 on Maxim magazine’s Hot 100 list of 2012.”

    Blaximus
    But what does that even mean though?

    Maybe “thirsty AFC’s are thirsty”.

  46. I have always said that HB ratings below 9-10 are going to vary between different men for a variety of reasons. I also say thamany men have never seen a ” 10 ” irl ( tv, magazines, internet notwithstanding ).

    For the sake of argument, let’s say that out of 1,000 women I’ve seen upclose with mine own eyeballs in person, maybe I’ve seen 3 ” 10’s “. 9’s were a bit more, but not much. 7-8’s were more plentiful, but the majority were running right around that 5.5-7.5 range. That 7.5 range ain’t nothing to sneeze at though.

    Below the 9 range, things get personal and more subjective.

    Yep. We were chatting a bit about this at Dalrock’s the other day — I agree that things are more variable than some guys seem to think, especially below the 9 level.

    In the real world, I think that there are virtually no 10s (like you, I’ve come across maybe 2 or 3 over 50+ years) … there aren’t many to begin with, and the ones there are generally are not in general circulation such that you would ever see them. There are slightly more 9s, but only slightly. You will go a long time before you come across a true 9 IRL generally. As a practical matter, in general public circulation, the top of the visible market is usually an 8. That is, the hottest girl in the room — unless you are in a pretty exclusive space with a LOT of ambient high status/money floating around — is usually an 8. That’s followed by a lot more 7s and even more 6s, as far as the “above average and better” in the looks department go. Most guys would be overjoyed beyond belief to be with a 7, because the relatively few 8s are the top of the “public” market and are not accessible to almost all “normal” (i.e., non elite status/money) guys. Heck, most guys are quite happy with a pretty 6-6.5.

    There is geographic variance — Rollo mentions this in one of his earlier pieces. There are more 8s in Miami and Los Angeles than in Chicago or Boston. DC has a “bulge” of women in the 5.5-7.25 range, because there are quite a few women here who are very fit, even if they are not genetically gifted facially, relative to other cities … but we have very few 7.5+ relative to, say, Manhattan or South Beach. Miami has a lot more 8s, but also has more 4s than we do as well (head inland from the beach, and you get to 4-ville pretty quickly down there heh heh). Also what “counts” for SMV status for men varies greatly depending on locale, so in NY it’s dolla-dolla-bills-y’all, in DC it’s about power and connections (we have a lot of comfortable people here financially but rather few truly rich people), in South Beach it’s about looks and money (more money than NY actually), LA it’s looks and connections to “the industry”, and so on. Every market has its quirks, and every market attracts women looking for different kinds of things, and therefore different kinds of women …, but in general, 8s are flocking to Miami and Los Angeles much more than Boston and Chicago. There are 6s and 7s everywhere, but above that it gets very geographically distorted.

    (As an aside, this raises the issue of whether one rates by the “objective/ideal” standard, or a “locally adjusted” one … that is, do you rate the women in South Beach and Boston according to the same scale, or do you rate them according to local market positioning – such that, say, a Boston 8 is a Miami 6, etc. Again, different guys disagree about that.)

  47. “do you rate the women in South Beach and Boston according to the same scale, or do you rate them according to local market positioning”

    Yes.

  48. SJF
    @Blax

    Rate the girls?

    They are attractive enough to entertain the thought of getting to know them. Or socializing with them, or if single (or not), getting with them.

    They meet some criteria. Form (including face), fit and figure.

    And then? They are just girls, right?

    That is just the starting line.

    @Blax. SJF is pretty much where I’m at on this. They avoid automatic disqualification but they aren’t my type. If J’s point is I’d smash it anyway even though she’s a moron I have to concede. But I’m not sure I’d push much past how far a disinterested attitude would get me. I’m not going to say she isn’t attractive but she isn’t what I’d go for.

    Leo’s women often come up in these sorts of conversations and rating looks discussions and I’m often indifferent to his girls.

    Maybe it is just my age. Stupid is boring even if she’s hot.

  49. Considering about 65% – 70% of all women are overweight, if a girl has a healthy body weight, she has a HB 7 starting point for me, and I add and subtract from that point.

  50. Sorry Sigma… Can’t fudge the scale.

    Once more….

    10s – 9s who hit personal preference (I.e. hair color, eye color, ass shape etc.)
    9s – exist solely on their looks (models, trophy wives, kept women)
    8s – “Hollywood Pretty” – very beautiful but not as much as 9s, generally shorter. Compensate with some other skill/talent I.e. actress, singer, dancer, PR, Pharma detail girl, porn etc.
    7s – the “smoking hawt” girls you see IRL out and about at the places you go to.
    6s – attractive but have something off. I.e. plain face but tight body, beautiful face but bigger hips etc. These are the very bangable girls you see with frequency. Wide range.
    5s – the W or WN bang threshold
    4s and below – there be dragons

    Remember, it’s a logarithmic scale…

  51. Which reminds me that it’s worth noting that during the famine the bulk of the fatalities were old men.

    i.e. they starved themselves to give the children>women>younger men who would bear continuing responsibility for the care of the women and children a better chance at making it through.

  52. “8s – “Hollywood Pretty” – very beautiful but not as much as 9s, generally shorter. Compensate with some other skill/talent I.e. actress, singer, dancer, PR, [[Pharma detail girl]], porn etc.”

    Close to 30 years ago I happened to walk into a meeting of about 300 big pharma drug reps, mostly women. The sheer unbalanced representation of beauty was overwhelming. It is still a vivid memory.

  53. Nova & Sentient

    I’ve always been curious about when pua teachers insist that guys go out to club(s)/Field and only game hb8’s-10’s , 19-24 years old – where the absolute fuck is this place located?

    So what are all of these dudes online reporting when they say they snl’d a hawt hb9 in Random Club, in Kaskogie Michigan?

  54. @ Rudolph

    “@Blax. SJF is pretty much where I’m at on this. They avoid automatic disqualification but they aren’t my type. If J’s point is I’d smash it anyway even though she’s a moron I have to concede. But I’m not sure I’d push much past how far a disinterested attitude would get me. I’m not going to say she isn’t attractive but she isn’t what I’d go for.

    Leo’s women often come up in these sorts of conversations and rating looks discussions and I’m often indifferent to his girls.

    Maybe it is just my age. Stupid is boring even if she’s hot.”

    I’m not sure that it’s just your age at play. I felt the same way in my late 20’s.

  55. Centuries

    Yup. Pfizer was particularly notorious. Who better to get Dr. SJF to reload?

    Was with a small business owner and this rep came in and before she got to say a word he said loudly “whatever it is you’re selling, I’M buying”… Lol

  56. Blax

    Well to them, because they have very limited experience being around beautiful girls, those are 9s…😂

    And they are confused by makeup and clothes… A made up 7 never transmogrifies into a 9… Never.

    But smart money is on they are simply full of shit.

  57. “I’ve always been curious about when pua teachers insist that guys go out to club(s)/Field and only game hb8’s-10’s , 19-24 years old – where the absolute fuck is this place located?”

    the thing that got me with the pua guys was, if your game is so tight, why the fuck don’t you target super hot super connected super wealthy girls on their birthday of age of majority and become a fucking prince of europe or something lol

    yareally preferred sleeping on scumbags piss stained couches i guess lol

    “So what are all of these dudes online reporting when they say they snl’d a hawt hb9 in Random Club, in Kaskogie Michigan?”

    hicks gonna hick

  58. @Blax: I think I mentioned this imprinting idea years ago when I joined the site. I have the same experience, but with my first serious “crush”, when I was around 15 or so.

    I’d be interested to know if others also had women of their favored type “imprinted” (for example, Sentient likes blondes).

  59. @IAS

    Glasses!
    (And that was when glasses were uncool and most everyone was wearing contacts)

  60. Yup. Pfizer was particularly notorious. Who better to get Dr. SJF to reload?

    Was with a small business owner and this rep came in and before she got to say a word he said loudly “whatever it is you’re selling, I’M buying”… Lol

    “Well to them, because they have very limited experience being around beautiful girls, those are 9s…😂

    And they are confused by makeup and clothes… A made up 7 never transmogrifies into a 9… Never.

    But smart money is on they are simply full of shit.”

    Yes. Drug reps do age. And their industry is going downhill. And plenty getting laid off. There are not a lot of hot young chicks in 2019 because of the industry decline.

    Pfizer had it good in the late 1990’s. Sure, they were attractive. And they stayed in the business for 20 years. And then were not so hot. But were mostly HB7’s or dressed up sixties with youth and a good figure. No 9’s really. What goes on that space is the Uniform of dress and the contextual space of thirsty men.

    From the LastPsychiatrist:

    https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/02/are_all_drug_reps_hot.html

    When you hear that all drug reps are hot, you can be confident that the person speaking is a middle aged man and/or someone with… limited sexual power. These people are prone to two errors. A psychological one: fetishization; and a biological one: mistaking for beauty what is merely youth.

    This is supported by the reverse complaint among young male residents, young male reps, and guys who’ve been around the block: where are all the hot reps? This company blows.

    These women aren’t hot, they are polished, hair and nails, new shoes, clothes, time at the gym and plenty of sleep. (Sigh, that was me– never.) What would you expect of a single woman with a lot of disposable income magnified 10x by credit? If you saw them in a bar you might not even notice them, but in a doctor’s office their appearance is jarring, out of place, no one else has such attention to their appearance. No one else is as young. No one else walks with such confidence.

  61. There’s one bartender about whom I asked, “What the hell is she doing tending bar? She could make hundreds of K as a swimsuit model?” Well, she’s too old to do swimsuits, but she’s a stunner, even without much makeup. I’d call her a 9.

  62. @ J

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Mt2lro3xhsE/maxresdefault.jpg

    Kendall Jenner only returned to the runway this year after a short hiatus, but she still managed to become the highest-paid model of 2018. That’s all the more impressive when you consider that her salary was counted prior to this past Fashion Month, with a cutoff of June 2018. During that period of time, Jenner raked in $22 million.

    While that’s only 13 percent of her younger sister Kylie Jenner’s earnings ($166.5 million), calculated by Forbes, it’s almost twice as much as the model in the No. 2 slot: Karlie Kloss. Keep in mind, though, this is all merely by Forbes’s best estimations and not concrete fact.

    Top-Paid Models of 2018 According to Forbes:
    1.Kendall Jenner, $22.5 million
    2.Karlie Kloss, $13 million
    3.(tie) Chrissy Teigen, $11.5 million
    4.(tie) Rosie Huntington-Whitely, $11.5 million
    5.(tie) Gisele Bündchen, $10 million
    6.(tie) Cara Delevingne, $10 million
    7.Gigi Hadid, $9.5 million
    8.(tie) Bella Hadid, $8.5 million
    9.(tie) Joan Smalls, $8.5 million
    10.Doutzen Kroes, $8 million

    A calvalcade of **6-7.5’s with great press.

    ( ** with great makeup and lighting )

    https://pmchollywoodlife.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/chrissy-teigen-itchy-spots-makeup-free-ftr.jpg

    Why does Teigen still make 11.5 million? Shit, the girl at the Dunkin Donuts by my house must be worth 12.

  63. FFS

    Kendall Jenner is a “celebrity”… Not a model. It’s A complete joke…

    And the amount of money any model makes is irrelevant. We are discussing looks and looks alone.

    Put your dog notions of status away.

    For her she’s happy she is long gone from Buttfuckaruss or Duluth… On that face and bod.

  64. It happens because ugly people are at war with pretty people.

    You should see the goblins pairing up with eachother in south florida while they attend college and how they smugly accuse their more attractive cohorts of “immorality”.

  65. @blax

    “where the absolute fuck is this place located?”

    The top clubs in big cities will have a couple of 8s and a few 9s. Second-tier clubs (the ones I mostly go to) have mostly 6s, couple 7s and a few 8s. For example, in the small PUA facebook group I’m in, the members live in places such as Bucharest, Romania, Copenhagen, Denmark, Stockholm Sweden, Oslo, Norway, Montreal, Canada, and NYC. Nobody from Grangeville, Idaho reportly banging scores of 9s unfortunately….

    “Top-Paid Models of 2018 According to Forbess”

    Nah. Wrong person you’re arguing with. You’re gonna have to take that shit over to Mr.”9– exist solely on their looks (models)”

  66. :), Blaximus , all right you got to crack up with the old gal bar picture.

    Ratings are subjective by guys, generally guys rate girls way higher than they really are. In order to get consensus you have to broaden out the ratings I find

    8+ = Here it’s just subjective, your 8 could be my 10, etc.
    5-7 = Middle of the pack most non fat ok face average girls go here
    4-0 = Something obviously wrong like obese/bad face, etc.

    I personally have never liked blonds, have had a few chase me hard especially in high school so I -2 on blond girls. I give +2 on black girls that have a feminine figure that would be more latin like.

    -3 on any airhead/ghetto/feminist chicks, just not worth the hassle. I currently have a South Indian 3 that has been driving a bunch of 20s guys wild for years, she has excellent girl game, I’m sure they would rate her a 5 or 6.

  67. I’ve always been curious about when pua teachers insist that guys go out to club(s)/Field and only game hb8’s-10’s , 19-24 years old – where the absolute fuck is this place located?

    So what are all of these dudes online reporting when they say they snl’d a hawt hb9 in Random Club, in Kaskogie Michigan?

    Well, you have the global scale, on the one hand, and then there’s the local scale, on the other (“that girl is a Kaskogie 9!”). Then there’s also, for some guys, the “hyperlocal scale” — i.e., “in this club, that girl is a 10!” (LOL!)

    Seriously, though, it all depends on how the scale gets defined.

    If you use a global scale, no way Kaskogie has any 10s above 17-18 years old. They leave. But the best looking ones who remain may be “Kaskogie 9s” to the guys who live there. And in a club anywhere, a guy — even without the benefit of beer goggles — may see a girl in the club who is hot as a “9” just because she’s the hottest girl in the club that night or the hottest girl he’s seen that evening/day, or the hottest girl he’s seen in a week, etc. Relatively few men get very scientific about how they categorize girls, anyway — it’s more impressionistic for most guys and so, in effect, for that guy in that situation in terms of the impact on his brain and arousal triggers, she is, in effect, a “9” for him, and she gets reported as such to other guys later on as well.

  68. @TantumErgo

    “she was completely in the territory of self-sabotage and self-destruction, which I failed to spot to my detriment.”

    That’s about the riskiest mistake to make in relationships with women (and men too).

    They’ll angrily frustrate every attempt by you to introduce balance, peace, meaning, and direction toward anything good into the relationship/their life. They’ll hate you for doing that. (And since they need to think they want to better their life and good things, they’ll have to imagine you are doing this or that ill-intentioned/bad thing — which is of course very hard to lo and behold for someone sane.)

    Don’t ask me how I know.

    1. @TT

      “That’s about the riskiest mistake to make in relationships with women (and men too).”

      And don’t I know it (now)! 😁

      “They’ll angrily frustrate every attempt by you to introduce balance, peace, meaning, and direction toward anything good into the relationship/their life. They’ll hate you for doing that. (And since they need to think they want to better their life and good things, they’ll have to imagine you are doing this or that ill-intentioned/bad thing — which is of course very hard to lo and behold for someone sane.)”

      And she did: She played up whenever she could, and she came to resent me, despite some solid attempts to deflect on my part…

      She was incredibly fatalistic and solipsistic; her constant refrain was ‘That’s just how I am, and I can’t change it.’ I have a high tolerance for this, but, as has already been pointed out to me, this was simply me allowing myself to be kicked around by the FI.

      “Don’t ask me how I know.”

      I am asking… 😁

      TantumErgo

  69. “It does however have to control her arms, legs, eyes, persona, poon. Nipples etc.. in a way we find appealing.

    That’s not intelligence per se. But there is something in the brain doing that.”

    SEE?

    Then it’s almost impossible to find women with skills other than that (consider that “persona” means the surface shown to society, in other words, for instance, what we see on their Facebooks is their personas), because that is what men want.

    I am blaming nobody; just the luck of anyone who, in a market, as niche preferences is very tough, because he isn’t going to find supply meeting his demand.

  70. “It does however have to control her arms, legs, eyes, persona, poon. Nipples etc.. in a way we find appealing.”

    Arms and legs maybe,eyes and persona 50% give or take. nipples and poontang no.

    Comparison Chart
    BASIS FOR COMPARISON VOLUNTARY MUSCLES INVOLUNTARY MUSCLES
    Also known as Striped, striated or skeletal muscles. Unstriped, non-striated, plain muscles.
    Shape Long, cylindrical and unbranched. Small and spindle-shaped.
    Type of cell Multinucleate. Uninucleate.
    Presence of nucleus The nucleus is present at the rim (Periphery). The nucleus is centrally placed.
    Sarcolemma It is thick. It is thin.
    Contraction is under the control of Central nervous system. Autonomic nervous system.
    Type of contractions Powerful and rapid. Rhythmic and slow.
    Energy requirement Require high energy. Require low energy.
    Found in The organs, performing voluntary movements like locomotory muscles, tongue, pharynx, diaphragm, middle ear muscles, sheets of muscles of the abdominal wall under the skin. These are attached to the bones. The organs, performing automatic movements like urogenital tracts, alimentary tracts, respiratory tracts, ducts of glands, blood vessels,
    ciliary muscles. They are present in the walls of internal organs.
    Intercalated disc Absent. Absent.
    Muscle fatigue Get fatigued easily. Fatigue slowly.
    Functions They are under the control of our will. They are not under the control of our will.
    They get tired and need rest at regular intervals. They do not get tired and can work continuously.

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