The ‘Creep’ – Part 1

What makes a guy “creepy”?

For almost every woman I polled in researching this essay what makes a guy ‘creepy’ is the inability of a guy to ‘take a hint’.

Most seemed to believe that there was some ‘obvious’ (to them) boundary that ‘creepy’ men always crossed that made them into creeps. If that sounds a lot like my principle of ‘Just Get It’ you’re not too far off. Much of this goes back to women’s innate psychological filtering for optimizing Hypergamy and women expect men to ‘just get’ everything about intersexual dynamics, both positive and negative. However, there is a fundamental difference between what men define as creepy (in a general sense) and what women ‘feel’ is creepy with regards to creepy men. I’ll go into both in this essay, but it’s important to make this distinction because for both men and women there is a peripheral awareness about other people’s behavior that sets off psychological triggers which inform us that something isn’t quite right about that person and to beware of danger.

Personally, I believe we have evolved a pretty good instinct about what makes us feel unsafe about other people. For people who have some sort of clinical neurosis sometimes all it takes is to listen to that person’s speech or watch their mannerisms. If you meet someone who is drunk, it’s pretty easy to diagnose that person’s state without having to smell their breath. We instinctively get a feeling that this person is not speaking (slurring) or behaving like a sober person would. Drunkenness is an easy illustration of this instinct, but the same goes for true forms of insanity (schizophrenia, paranoia, bipolar disorder). Unless we’re really naive or just ignoring the indicators we can tell when a person is off.

Dementia and Alzheimers are easy diagnoses too. From there though, by degrees of subtlety, we really have to hone our senses to what’s right or wrong about a person’s behavior. What’s more difficult to wrap our heads around is sussing out people who have a better capacity to hide their disorders. Autism, Asperger’s Syndrome or just acute social awkwardness is sometimes manageable and we either accept it as part of their personality or we understand it as a disorder and we (as “normies”) choose to ignore it. This is where the social conditioning of today does us a disservice to some extent.

In our feminine-primary social order of tolerance and acceptance, this innate, often peripheral or unconscious, sense of understanding that something is off about someone is something we are taught we ought to keep sublimated. We don’t want to appear “judgmental” or we’re shamed for actually heeding the messages our instincts are telling us are red flags about people. Conditions and disorders that we used to consider abnormalities in the past are things we’re expected to progressively have more and more empathy for. That isn’t to say that we ought not be sympathetic to a person’s condition, but it is to say that this expectation of acceptance reduces our capacity to listen to what our instinct is telling us about a person. We get conditioned to tuning out our natural instincts about a person who may want to harm or manipulate us.

I mentioned this hindbrain instinct in Gut Check as being one reason we tend to get jealous or possessive of our mates.

Whenever you feel something isn’t quite right in your gut, what this is is your subconscious awareness alerting you to inconsistencies going on around you. We tend to ignore these signs in the thinking that our rational mind ‘knows better’ and things really aren’t what they seem. It’s not as bad as you’re imagining, and you can even feel shame or guilt with yourself for acknowledging that lack of trust. However, it’s just this internal rationalization that keeps us blind to the obvious that our subconscious is trying to warn us about. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people’s actions. So when that predictable behavior changes even marginally, our instinctual perceptions fire off all kinds of warnings. Some of which can actually effect us physically.

The dynamic of Mate Guarding is also a behavioral adaptation that evolved to ensure our paternity or parental investment with a mate. Our social order today teaches us that men who feel jealousy, suspect infidelity or are prone to mate guard are by definition “insecure”. This redefining is meant to cover for women’s control of Hypergamy, in the hopes that men will self-police these instincts, but in doing so they become sublimated. So we self-convince that it’s wrong for us to heed what our hindbrain is telling us for our own preservation.

However, when it comes to women’s instincts we exaggerate their importance beyond all realistic measure. Since we prioritize women’s hindbrain perception and feeling above all else, we would never downplay their importance without risking a lot of social fallout and shame. Whereas men’s instincts are signs of ‘insecurity’, women’s instincts (feminine intuition) are raised to a metaphysical level. So when a woman says a guy “creeps her out” or is acting “creepy” we tend to misunderstand what exactly it is her hindbrain is telling her and us. There are two aspects of ‘creepy’ to women:

  • The sense of self-preservation and imminent danger that is associated with a man whom her hindbrain is telling her that there’s something not quite right about. The guy is directly communicating or subcommunicating that he may be a potential threat to her wellbeing. Her intuition is something that is exaggerated beyond all reasonable, realistic perception, but her subconscious only knows what it knows and the social conditioning kicks in to be overly cautious. This may or may not be the actual case, but women evolved to err on the side of over-cautiousness – particularly when it comes to men’s behavioral cues and perceptions of anger.
  • The sense of insult to her capacity to optimize Hypergamy with a suboptimal male makes her “creeped out”. In this sense the “creep” offends her hindbrain’s expectation of reproducing with the best genetic partner her ego believes is really her due. As you’ll see in a moment, when a physically arousing man repeats the same behavior as a less-arousing man the feeling of ‘creep’ is diminished. Much of this has a lot to do with that guy’s sense of congruency between his behavior (sub-communications) and her intuition about his authenticity, but largely the initial ‘hotness’ of one man vs. a less hot one can spell the difference between a “creep” and “awkward-but-cute”. Arousal compensates for a lot of behavioral miscues, but the point is that this sense of ‘creepiness’ is fundamentally based in a woman’s ego-sense of losing direct control of Hypergamy and her capacity to optimize it. What ‘creepy’ distills down to is a woman’s Hypergamous-level revulsion of a man believing he may be someone she would eventually have sex with. Creepy is an insult to Hypergamy.

In both these instances it’s important to consider that we’re talking about both an instinctual dynamic and how it’s been modified by our social order. The following are a few of the most common descriptions of ‘creepy’ I was able to collate for this essay:

Getting in my personal space when I don’t know/barely know you. It’s weird and uncomfortable, and if you’re bigger than me then it can feel quite intimidating.

When I worked in a bar one guy told me I was prettier than anyone else there. But he kept going on about how they weren’t attractive and had nothing to offer as far as looks go. Yeah? Some of those are my dearest friends you’re bashing.

When I make it clear I’m not interested and he keeps trying. It makes me feel uncomfortable and it puts me in a bad position cause there are only so many times you can politely turn someone down.

Over Persistence

It’s an unfortunate but totally predictable response to much of our entertainment, where the storyline involves a man “winning” an initially uninterested woman either by wooing her directly or by performing some great feat. We’ve seen this archetypal story for centuries (since the rise of courtly love). Persistence is always rewarded in Disney Blue Pill fantasies Everyone is the hero of their own story. So if you’re raised on stories like that, of course you don’t take an initial “no” as the final answer. It’s all part of the story. You’re the hero and you want her, so you’ll get her in the end.

Persistence is always a sensitive topic in the ‘sphere. Some guys will tell you that even without Indicators of Interest a woman is only a conversation away from being into you if your Game is good enough to convince her. Others will tell you to balance your efforts and play to your strengths; why bother with a dead end if other opportunities are available? In either case a guy can come off as creepy when he takes this persistence to the extreme. It’s one thing to not “take a hint” from a woman, it’s an order of degree worse when a guy persists in not taking that hint because he’s been taught he’ll be rewarded for persistence.

I have had the “attempts-at-polite-rejection” turn scary (thankfully, the worst it ever got was being slammed into a wall) enough times that as soon as someone doesn’t take “no” for an answer once, I start internally freaking out.

Persistence when a woman has rejected a guy is the top complaint of creepiness. Women expect a guy to ‘just get it’. Social retardation (I mean that in a clinical sense) and Blue Pill conditioning teach a guy to never give up, to believe in some kind of predestination or romantic soul-mate date with fate, and all he needs to do is be persistent and a woman will come to the same romantic-but-logical conclusion.

Women make the mistake of believing all guys understand when they are communicating rejection to them – they very often don’t, and for the same reason they’ve been taught to be zealously persistent. The Blue Pill makes them resistant to this. Blue Pill ‘creeps’ usually respond with either anger or self-pity when they finally realize their predestined girl not only rejects him, but she is scared of him or despises him. So the Nice Guy turns mean and vindictive, or he loses faith in his Blue Pill romanticization and gets despondent. Both are potentially volatile for the Beta.

I think a lot of well-meaning Beta “Nice Guys” come off as creepy simply because they follow a Blue Pill old-books script they believe will be reciprocated by women. Much of this creepiness is the result of their inability to do a realistic assessment of their own SMV. This is a tough bit of insight even for Red Pill aware men, but for Blue Pill guys it’s almost impossible because they are struggling against a social conditioning that constantly tells them what they do and who they are is ‘enough’ – or should be enough for any girl who’s of a quality to appreciate their unique-but-commonness.

In a way it’s a lot like today’s women’s egos being overinflated by social media and our present social narrative to the point that they believe their own SMV is, or should be, enough for any man, but especially men who are well above their own SMV. More than enough actually. So too does the ‘creep’ believe his own pathological self-impression. The problem here is that, for men,  we must be the initiators and with that comes the potential to be taken as an aggressor or harasser.

Where’s my hug?

I think one potentially bad outcome for the ‘creep’ is when he comes across something like a PUA program and watches an ‘instructor’ run through a set and then tries his damnedest to repeat the same behaviors and script with a girl he thinks he may have a chance with. When a PUA presumes familiarity with a woman he doesn’t know, and his internal game is congruent with his delivery, it comes off as authentic and it can (potentially) be endearing. But when a Beta ‘creep’, who’s trying his best to solve his creepiness problem, presumes the same behavior will endear him to a girl – and isn’t congruent, or doesn’t “get it” – he gets even more despondent (or frustrated/aggravated) when all it does is reinforce and enhance his perception of creepiness.

A common Game technique is to presume a familiarity with a woman. When PUA with Game and congruency approaches a woman and says “where’s my hug?” the effect is the polar opposite of when an incongruent Beta delivers the same line. Worse still, the guy risks not just overt rejection and creepiness perception, but he also runs the risk of having his approach considered sexual assault by order of degree. I would argue that a lot of what would otherwise be considered witty banter from a skilled PUA is creepy to women when it comes from a struggling Beta who a woman doesn’t find arousing.

This dynamic also extends to over-sexualizing a conversation with women when no context has been established between the creep and the girl.

I get creeped out by guys who immediately start talking about sexual topics in response to everything you say, every single time you are within communicating distance of each other while you two barely know each other to drop a “hint”. I had a guy that found a way (albeit poorly) to turn everything I said sexual. And whenever I called him out on it and told him to knock it off, I was being a “prude”.

Also, asking personal (sexual) questions or sharing stories of the same, especially if you’re not even casual acquaintances. I know a lot of women who want to be polite but are totally creeped out by this.

What’s fascinating about this sex-conversation creep is that, when the reverse is true, there’s no better indicator that a woman is into having sex with a you. In an upcoming essay I’ll outline our social progression towards a unilateral control of every aspect of the intersexual process by women, but for now consider that when a woman immediately presumes a sexual context in conversation it’s a solid confirmation that you’ve passed (or are passing) her Hypergamous filter. And that’s the fundamental nature of this kind of creepy guy; he presumes an acknowledged state of sexual-ness without having passed this Hypergamous determination. I’ve said in the past that women don’t decide in the first five minutes of meeting a guy if she will have sex with him, rather, she knows if she wont have sex with him.

Again, Game sometimes reinforces the idea that a guy needs to establish a sexual context with a woman from the opening, but the creep doesn’t understand the artistry and nuance that goes along with applying this. My friend, Alan Roger Currie, is a big proponent of straight up, “I wanna fuck you, are you down?” style of direct Game. While I have seen this effective with women it does promote the idea that a guy can simply presume a sexual context with any woman from the outset. And really, when a creep tries to drop ‘hints’ about sex or attempts to get personal information in a blunderingly obvious (but he thinks stealthy) way he’s not employing a direct Game – he’s beating around the bush in the hopes that he’ll pass her sex test.

When a less-than-proficient, less-than-arousing Beta adopts this direct-but-not-directness he runs the risk of being perceived as creepy, or worse, as a harasser. For a mature, socially savvy man, the obvious retort is “well, no guy should presume anything, there needs to be some kind of rapport’, but remember, we’re talking about guys who in large part Don’t Get ItThis should make for a good conversation this week. Let me know your thoughts on what you think constitutes ‘creepiness’ in the comments.

As I was researching and writing on this topic It occurred to me how deep this dynamic really is, so I’ve decided to split it into a series. In part two we’ll go into a bit more of what makes for creepiness in a Hypergamous context.  I’ll also delve into how creepiness has been developed into a feminine-operative social convention.

297 comments

  1. I was in the library today sitting next to comely woman today and a old man came up to her and started talking to her like he knew her looking at the material shew as studying/reading and recycling it at her. Then he came at her with questions. She was polite but he was creepy because the woman was like 40-50+ years his junior. I was going to say something to her to ease the tension but I imagine women deal with uncultured men constantly so they can handle it. I work hard to no directly help women anymore…

  2. I was in the library today sitting next to comely woman today and a old man came up to her and started talking to her like he knew her looking at the material she was studying/reading and recycling it back at her. Then he came at her with questions. She was polite but he was creepy because the woman was like 40-50+ years his junior. I was going to say something to her to ease the tension but I imagine women deal with uncultured men constantly so they can handle it. I work hard to not directly help women anymore…

  3. Google ‘feminist blog friend zone’ etc. and the hamster is on full display. The overturning (I prefer whacking) of feminism will be a sight to behold. An enema need but be applied.

  4. Elements of creepiness: lack of calibration. That’s why the Mystery Method is so critical to understanding game and sparking female attraction.

    When a woman is attracted you can get away with a lot more in terms of kino, agreeing and amplifying etc.

  5. A lot of what The Red Pill teaches is a continuation of what Christianity advocates and that is to search for the truth, wherever it leads you. Men from all walks of life look to a set of rules they can apply, like a recipe, follow steps 1-5 and you will end up with a sort of baked chicken that you can sleep and have a family with.

    Unfortunately, many of the same folks who start dabbling with The Red Pill never get past the self-introspection phase and go directly towards approaching women, and getting bogged down for decades with multiple “plates” that are, in reality, slave-masters. I know this was the road I was being lead down to had I not fully de-pedestalized the vagina. Thankfully, after so many lays, and bad experiences, I have come full circle from chasing the holy grail of a woman’s intimacy to avoiding it, to back now seeing it better than ever before for what it is. A tool for men to divest time into with the promise of a chance of reproduction.

    Men do not want to fully invest in their SMV, by and large. They do not want to investigate, on average, their own SMV. They feel entitled to women that are 4-6 SMV scale numbers above them, because they are the product of a gynocentric system that lies to many and says “you’re worth it.”

    With all of this said, a Creep can easily avoid the scenario altogether by understanding his worth, and targeting SMV appropriate potential partners.

  6. ‘Creep’ is a mechanism of sexual zoning: In the ‘Alpha fux’ stage, the creep is the beta in waiting, in the ‘Beta bux’ stage, ‘creep’ is the Alpha she can’t get and must deride to demonstrate (to herself and others), her unwavering desire any man who’ll be a husband. Of course there are socially awkward men – but we must bear in mind that the ‘creep’ convention says as much about the person who uses it as the person to whom it is applied. Is there any such thing as a female creep?

  7. A creep is a Male who treats a female with too much respect. Who assumes her superiority.

    This is repulsive as indicates low status.

  8. It saddens me that what Rollo is saying is going to be labeled as “commin sense” by many guys. This is the price that the creator of a theory has to pay once his theory is established and verified by observationand data. If you talk to your average idiot they will immediately disregard as “morons” the people that used to think that the earth was flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. And yet, before Galileo we thought that the sun revolved around the earth. It was our reality. Now, suddenly, it js “obvious”. Right, forget the countless hours Galileo spent studying mathematics and developing his theory or the countless idiots he had to dispute in the religious community with danger of his life to promote his theory. Unfortunately, the genius is never recognized by the masses because within the blink of an eye what was unimaginable becomes our reality and “commin sense”. However, great men of spirit always recognize the value of each genius even if the masses don’t and even if said genius produced something we now take for granted.

    If what Rollo says seems obvious to you is because he has lifted the curtain and you are now on the other side. It was not always so. Be grateful.

  9. ” . . .forget the countless hours Galileo spent studying mathematics and developing his theory . . .”

    Heliocentrism wasn’t his. He championed it after the fact as obvious. That isn’t to say that your position is without merit, indeed it’s obvious, but you obviously picked a poor example.

  10. She was polite but he was creepy because the woman was like 40-50+ years his junior.

    Thinking that an age disparity makes a guy creepy is very unrealistic. Much younger women (~40 years) approach me frequently.

    ——————————

    When a woman is attracted you can get away with a lot more in terms of kino, agreeing and amplifying etc.

    True. My experience verifies this. And a woman’s words will frequently contradict her actions. For example, I ran kino within 5 min of meeting a woman who was on a date with a friend (he asked me to be there). She told my friend after the date that I should be careful because I might get slapped for doing kino that quickly. She asked me on their next date to a concert and bought a ticket for me. The girl was lit up and was engaging me the next time I saw her in my friend’s apt. The girl also felt comfortable in a bf/gf hold with me on their date. (She had her arm around my waist.) I maintained the hold only briefly to make a point, then dropped it. The girl was saying that I should invite her and my friend along on an overseas trip. All of the girl’s actions contradicted her words about being too forward. The words may have been generated by ASD.

  11. Red pill awaking should naturally reduce the risk of being creepy. While I was never accused of being a creep in the past I definitely realize now why I have never been accused of being a creep. Like people are already posting above, calibration and understanding women is incredibly helpful.

    What is interesting is while I have zero problems approaching(most of the time) i generally go a route of teasing and ZFG attitude and they end up chasing if they are interested. Thus completely negating the chance of creepiness. You learn early on in a conversation who can be teased and who cant.

    I haven’t posted in a while but I read religiously. This shit works.. I started banging a 24 year old a couple weeks ago and I’m in my late 30s. She constantly tells me she is speechless and that I’m “something entirely else shes never seen”. She’s got a great body and I’m sure every guy shes ever dated let her walk all over them. Game works and game isn’t creepy.

    Side question: She wants me to meet up with her and her friends to go bar hoping tomorrow. This will be the first time I meet the friends. I’m sure judgement and group shit tests will ensue. Do I go or just tell her to come over when shes done. I don’t think the shit tests will be anything I can’t handle but I thought I would source the pros here for fun.

  12. Only creepy if you’re not attractive. Get jacked, ripped, flawless skin/teeth, clean haircut, groom yourself, get nice style, maximize your height —> hit on a 2-3 girls during the day + go out 2-3 nights a week—> and now you’re banging AT LEAST 1 new hot girl/week

  13. “Learning game isn’t creepy. You know what’s creepy? NOT learning game. Because you think guys without game will just NOT approach? No, they’ll still approach, but it’ll be in this creepy lame awkward uncultivated weird way.” – Tyler

  14. “The guy is directly communicating or subcommunicating that he may be a potential threat to her wellbeing. Her intuition is something that is exaggerated beyond all reasonable, realistic perception, but her subconscious only knows what it knows and the social conditioning kicks in to be overly cautious. This may or may not be the actual case, but women evolved to err on the side of over-cautiousness – particularly when it comes to men’s behavioral cues and perceptions of anger.”
    Well this is a somewhat dangerous place to be… I’ve been on both side’s of this recently.

    “The problem here is that, for men, we must be the initiators and with that comes the potential to be taken as an aggressor or harasser.”

    “When PUA with Game and congruency approaches a woman and says “where’s my hug?” the effect is the polar opposite of when an incongruent Beta delivers the same line. ‘
    Ahh the memory’s…

    “This dynamic also extends to over-sexualizing a conversation with women when no context has been established between the creep and the girl.”

    Doing this once in any social situation will put you in a place that can get dark rather quick. Especially with women who have been angry on men not “getting it” Stop speaking fast but rather slow with word’s that resonate

    “And that’s the fundamental nature of this kind of creepy guy; he presumes an acknowledged state of sexual-ness without having passed this Hypergamous determination. I’ve said in the past that women don’t decide in the first five minutes of meeting a guy if she will have sex with him, rather, she knows if she wont have sex with him.’

    Wow… The amount of times ive shoot myself in my foot with this…

    “Game sometimes reinforces the idea that a guy needs to establish a sexual context with a woman from the opening, but the creep doesn’t understand the artistry and nuance that goes along with applying this. ”

    Establishing the context is what makes the whole process enjoyable. That is root and salvation of comedy… That provides an example of how the Story of your life and someone else’s connect at any level you want or desire.

    “While I have seen this effective with women it does promote the idea that a guy can simply presume a sexual context with any woman from the outset. And really, when a creep tries to drop ‘hints’ about sex or attempts to get personal information in a blunderingly obvious (but he thinks stealthy) way he’s not employing a direct Game – he’s beating around the bush in the hopes that he’ll pass her sex test.”

  15. What makes a guy “creepy”?

    “In our feminine-primary social order of tolerance and acceptance, this innate, often peripheral or unconscious, sense of understanding that something is off about someone is something we are taught we ought to keep sublimated. We don’t want to appear “judgmental” or we’re shamed for actually heeding the messages our instincts are telling us are red flags about people. Conditions and disorders that we used to consider abnormalities in the past are things we’re expected to progressively have more and more empathy for. That isn’t to say that we ought not be sympathetic to a person’s condition, but it is to say that this expectation of acceptance reduces our capacity to listen to what our instinct is telling us about a person. We get conditioned to tuning out our natural instincts about a person who may want to harm or manipulate us.’

    “What’s fascinating about this sex-conversation creep is that, when the reverse is true, there’s no better indicator that a woman is into having sex with a you. In an upcoming essay I’ll outline our social progression towards a unilateral control of every aspect of the intersexual process by women, but for now consider that when a woman immediately presumes a sexual context in conversation it’s a solid confirmation that you’ve passed (or are passing) her Hypergamous filter. And that’s the fundamental nature of this kind of creepy guy; he presumes an acknowledged state of sexual-ness without having passed this Hypergamous determination. I’ve said in the past that women don’t decide in the first five minutes of meeting a guy if she will have sex with him, rather, she knows if she wont have sex with him.”

    Even though its TV the show bring’s up what can arose and offend women…

  16. This is something I was always watching myself for. I’ll fully admit I was awkward when I was young but changed deastically when I was in high school and learned being cool is about two things: mystery, and perceived status. It paid off in college because a ZFG attitude provided both of those things and I had girls approaching me regularly to ask about whatever thing I was peacocking (usually a huge irish cableknit sweater), but I digress. I feel that a creep doesn’t really have anything different than a game-aware male besides a severe deficit of mystery and perceived status. The creep is hungry, starving even, for validation, and thus lays his cards on the table in an attempt to impress. This has the opposite effect in the female psyche as she’s repulsed that he 1) assumed intimate interest keyword(not attraction)) and 2) approached her with such a gross display of low status. Assuming attraction boosts your perceived SMV (other’s perception) through confidence and the like, but attraction isn’t the whole picture for women. There’s a component of intimate interest that’s, in my opinion, seperate from attraction. Assuming THAT too early on usually gets presented in a general way, so your interlocutor gets offended at the shattering of their perception of their intimacy as something that’s reserved, but the creep presents it as something out in the open.

  17. @Logic, I’m used to it. However, I think that what a lot of guys want to say is ‘common sense’ or is something guys (creeps) should know is not at all common, and no, they don’t know it. I also get that the same guys who want to call it common sense do so in order to affirm their own statuses at the expense of guys who genuinely need to have this spelled out for them.

  18. mystery, and perceived status

    “The creep is hungry, starving even, for validation, and thus lays his cards on the table in an attempt to impress. This has the opposite effect in the female psyche as she’s repulsed that he 1) assumed intimate interest keyword(not attraction)) and 2) approached her with such a gross display of low status. Assuming attraction boosts your perceived SMV (other’s perception) through confidence and the like, but attraction isn’t the whole picture for women. ”

    Loving her for who she is and not who you want her to be…
    https://archive.org/details/pdfy-vXiSrVKID8X2y4pD

    “Assuming THAT too early on usually gets presented in a general way, so your interlocutor gets offended at the shattering of their perception of their intimacy as something that’s reserved, but the creep presents it as something out in the open.”

    the shattering of their perception of their intimacy as something that’s reserved
    (Will not be excused in any social context in 2017)

    This last part is what makes a lot of early trauma hard to hold back on…
    “but the creep presents it as something out in the open”
    One of the interesting thing’s ive been learning about myself is that ive never been around people who weren’t shit testing me… My avoidance to been social is more about learning how to go about life without running anyone over. But the more you avoid running anything over the more you fall back on what work’s for you. Creep is to me not having time to digest the early lesson’s of social discourse. Its the culture that present’s people as a template for learning… Faulty learning and mistakes that are learned sooner than later are what make up the difference in healthy vs none healthy relationship’s… It gives you time to build what resonates with you in attraction and esteem. having a base line of self esteem is essential in learning what not to do.
    (Self respect) prevent’s the (Something out in the open)

    Women demand a mastery of dominance for this reason because dominance provides a statement of emotional control and an understanding of the burden…. knowing that get’s the process of the human connection from expanding for whatever purpose you seek or are into…

  19. Persistence is the crucial issue here — even in normal interpersonal relations — and will continue to grow more so as the current harassment hysteria spreads. Remember how one of the items on Nicole’s List was basically “If she says no just go away.” And yet many initial rejections are just a test or a tease — many of us would not be here if our dads had taken that first no for an answer.

    So “creepy” now pretty much means she wants to tune you out but you won’t go away. She has decided in those five seconds that she won’t do you and maybe fears deep within that somewhere down the road she will have to settle for you or someone similar.

    But I’m thinking that the guys who are really good at this stuff can distinguish the rejection of pure disgust from the Potemkin rejection that actually leaves the door wide open. So show some interest, show you’re not just going to fold like a cheap camping chair at the first no, but then show some zfg and let her pick up the chase.

  20. No, there aren’t female creeps. There are females who don’t understand boundaries in the analogous situations but men do not regard this as burdensome or unsettling. Generosity/magnanimity (in particular of the profound and elevated kind) are much more male traits. You could say there are female creeps, sure, but there’s no analogous male conception of the matter to that of the females. We’re not wired that way.

  21. ” No, there aren’t female creeps. There are females who don’t understand boundaries in the analogous situations but men do not regard this as burdensome or unsettling. Generosity/magnanimity (in particular of the profound and elevated kind) are much more male traits. You could say there are female creeps, sure, but there’s no analogous male conception of the matter to that of the females. We’re not wired that way.”

    100% disagree.

  22. “No, there aren’t female creeps. There are females who don’t understand boundaries in the analogous situations but men do not regard this as burdensome or unsettling. Generosity/magnanimity (in particular of the profound and elevated kind) are much more male traits. You could say there are female creeps, sure, but there’s no analogous male conception of the matter to that of the females. We’re not wired that way.”

    Shure there are,with the advent of open hypergamy, feminine primary social order and a high percentage of blue pill males. If a man is a good looking alpha, he will be socialy isolated by women that will use him to test their mates. And still others that see they have no chance and flip the script making him out to be the creep with no indication of interest on his part.

    This can be very “burdensome and unsettling” destroying his chances even to support his family. Don’t make the assumption that any man will take what he can get, or that any woman is entitled to any man she wants. Is that “analogous”?

  23. It’s not so much about women’s wiring wrt creep female behavior, nor is it about what men ” regard “.

    There’s lots of stuff guys can’t conceive of. Doesn’t mean things aren’t real because a guy can’t conceive of it.

    Thanks.

  24. @ stuff

    This is why I bristle at the very common notion that no man will deny himself a shot at random pussy. That shit’s stupid and insulting.

    Women are very fond of saying these type of things. Many times it comes from a woman that you wouldn’t fuck with a stolen dick.

  25. “No, there aren’t female creeps”

    I was up on a ladder cleaning windows when the bosses lesbian friend walked in and grabbed my cock and balls griped them firmly and said I guess you do have a pair. She held on to long waiting to see what would happen I guess. Fn ugly bitch.

  26. @Blax

    Random pussy was fun till it wasn’t, “Insulting” like as if that bleeding puss rip thats too close to a shithole to be clean without extra effort, but I digress.

  27. The core of creepiness is not your subcommunication as much as it is your inability to read HER subcommunications. This is why a PUA can calibrate and you cannot. Or a Natural.

    This is why you can copy RSDs content and manner and still fail where they succeed. They can read her subcomms in real time and adjust. Adjustment is microGame…

    Game is a verbal amd physical language.

  28. By the way, by “normal interpersonal relations” I mean actions that can occur naturally and organically between two people without being twisted by wider social pressures — many of them generated by the FI’s grip on today’s culture.

  29. You can be considered creepy if she just gets nervous for some reason by you being around her. If for whatever reason you are approaching to where she is, and you have no intent of engaging with her (such as leaving a sweatshirt somewhere, and you’re coming over to get it and she happens to have sat down at the same spot), her ego will make her assume you’re coming over because she’s there. So whether it’s due to being unattractive, different race, if she feels like “I hope none of these guys try and talk to me” you can be considered creepy.
    Guys who self deprecate too much trying to be funny, especially if it’s a first date or a first approach, will be labeled creepy. As well as any nerd or awkward guy who should dare to try and “date out of his league”.
    Even an undesirable who dares to look at a girl as we’ve seen past examples brought up in the news and articles. Picture a college campus during the spring time where girls may want to lay out in the sun or by the pool and some construction workers have to be nearby to put in some new pipes. They suddenly become creepy because they’ve never been there before, regardless of the fact they have to be there, and they might look at non fat females laying about in the sun.

  30. I’m fascinated by the argument Rollo makes in this essay.

    I’ve been thinking about the 80/20 rule applied to SMV a lot in this age of social media; especially the Instagram/Tinder platform. Based on gauging the dating market in the USA closing out 2017, I would argue that if things continue down this path of women ‘gaining unilateral control of every aspect of the intersexual process’, the next phase will be legalized polygamy. If the majority of the women are LITERALLY competing for only 20% of the male population today, one can speculate that with AI automation moving rapidly, this pool of men that passes the ‘Hypergamous Filter” test may have shrunk to 10% in 10-15 years.

    It will be women that sexually disenfranchise the majority of men moving forward and lock them out of any long term ability to procreate within the USA. Ironically, this is a reversion to a more ‘primitive’ time because in the past, only a small population of men have successfully procreated; why else can 1 healthy male re-generate a nation with millions of women?


  31. “By the way, by “normal interpersonal relations” I mean actions that can occur naturally and organically between two people without being twisted by wider social pressures — many of them generated by the FI’s grip on today’s culture.”

    “It will be women that sexually disenfranchise the majority of men moving forward and lock them out of any long term ability to procreate within the USA. Ironically, this is a reversion to a more ‘primitive’ time because in the past, only a small population of men have successfully procreated; why else can 1 healthy male re-generate a nation with millions of women?”

  32. I was in the library today sitting next to comely woman today and a old man came up to her and started talking to her like he knew her looking at the material she was studying/reading and recycling it back at her. Then he came at her with questions.

    Heh, I think he must have read Day Bang.

  33. Is there any such thing as a female creep?

    If you’ve ever had a fatty come on to you, and ignore your displays of indifference, that’s pretty damn creepy.

  34. >> The sense of insult to her capacity to optimize Hypergamy with a suboptimal male makes her “creeped out”. In this sense the “creep” offends her hindbrain’s expectation of reproducing with the best genetic partner her ego believes is really her due.

    This ^ is good definition of creepy… but could also be “pathetic.”

    The best definition I’ve seen is “wanting something and not doing anything about it.” This is the guy that “gets tight” and then “projects” his want about a girl he’s into. That’s the no-agency, needy-creepy. The “lurker” creep. The “tight jawed stare.”

    I get a lot of attention as a dancer… and girls “creep” on me all the time. It’s easily done by them in this context, as my value > theirs as a dancer (so their sex value is diminished) and their role as women means they are less direct… so they end up as “low value” orbiters, putting themselves near me, hoping I’ll bite. It’s horribly creepy. They are “tight” and “needy” and I can feel it. My dancefloor “feel sensors” are very strong, and when I pick this up… I bail on that part of the dancefloor, as that vibe is impossible to miss.

  35. “The best definition I’ve seen is “wanting something and not doing anything about it.” This is the guy that “gets tight” and then “projects” his want about a girl he’s into. That’s the no-agency, needy-creepy. The “lurker” creep. The “tight jawed stare.””

  36. >> My friend, Alan Roger Currie, is a big proponent of straight up, “I wanna fuck you, are you down?” style of direct Game. While I have seen this effective with women it does promote the idea that a guy can simply presume a sexual context with any woman from the outset

    Good reference to Currie. Mooooooode onnne.

    Currie is different as he is direct, bold, full agency. It’s not a hint. That’s a lot of his power. He is “doing something,” not lurking in desire.

    That game mostly doesn’t work well, as it’s too much. Currie is awesome (I have several books of his), but his time in the sun came and went… as his examples are a little too direct (and to fair, he wasn’t always as direct as we paint him to be).

    Krauser makes a great point about “planting your feet” on the sidewalk as you approach in the daygame scenario. So as you stop her, you stick to one spot… if she drifts, you stay put.

    This is great insight into the mechanisms of “creepy,” as it has a bit of Currie’s Mode One to it in that it’s direct and “man to woman” (=sexual) as the London guys would say. But… it demonstrates quickly that you won’t be overly persistent.

    I see this all the time when I do daygame stops. She hears my opening lines, and is in evaluation mode. I plant my feet, and she drifts. I pivot to hold eye contact, but don’t come toward her as she moves away… and when she sees that I’m not going to follow her, that I’m “rooted” to my spot, you can easily see these girls visually relax and open up. They often stop, start to chat… once I know “I’m in,” I can step toward them. I’ve demonstrated my calibration, and I’m “safe” (=non violent) at that point.

    That’s a great way to pass the “creep” test as a daygamer… plant your feet. Do not walk with those girls (less true for advanced guys). If they won’t stick around, let them go, and try the next girl.

    Your willingness to be direct, but not latch onto her… good game.

  37. Creepy, adj. Your stubborn reluctance to remove your bottom-80 percent existence from my otherwise pristine field of vision

    “Creepy” used to be reserved for the hint of truly skeevy behavior like subway frottage or teachers messing with underage students. For women it’s now become more of a thousand-and-one-uses Swiss Army Knife term like “harassment.” And they don’t even have to say it, just think it.

  38. It’s rather surprising that our species manages to reproduce itself. Women are programmed to be coy and elusive at first; but failing to immediately depart when they don’t respond with immediate enthusiasm is creepy?

    That’s an insoluble contradiction. Pretty much the only women who will say “yes” right away are literal hookers.

  39. If you guys want a good celebrity example of what a female creep looks and acts like, check out this woman called Kristen Schaal.

    “Wow you remember everything!” is a great neg btw.

  40. aletheia
    No, there aren’t female creeps.

    Disagree based on personal experience.

    There are females who don’t understand boundaries in the analogous situations but men do not regard this as burdensome or unsettling.

    Cluster B’s are odd, and NPD’s can be very creepy.
    Just picking an example, there are others.

    Generosity/magnanimity (in particular of the profound and elevated kind) are much more male traits.

    Well, ok, so what?

    You could say there are female creeps, sure, but there’s no analogous male conception of the matter to that of the females. We’re not wired that way.

    Yeah, well, ok no. Men don’t get creeped out the way women do, true, but so what?

  41. Back to the OP: lack of calibration, lack of situational awareness, lack of social skills [*], lack of ability to read people all can lead to a man being assesed as “creepy”. Never mind that the term properly applies to the sort of damaged man who tries to cop feels on public transit / at the SRO concert / in a class room. Doesn’t matter, as “creepy” is subjective.

    The problem is that young men are on the one hand beaten over the head with their inherent “badness” due to testosterone poisoning and on the other hand trained to treat girls as a cross between siblings & superiors. So many young men won’t get the kind of normal experiences that would enable them to have some degree of calibration automatically. Get into the work force or even college and they (a) don’t know how to talk to women except as “guys” (b) are afraid of “doing it wrong” which leads to a huge level of approach anxiety.

    [*] Imma point out again that colleges are teaching multi-day courses on “table manners” and “meeting etiquette” and other basic social skills that fathers used to teach sons & daughters.

  42. Alan Roger Currie has offered some great red pill game via the Mode One method. However, I would argue that Mode One for the Beta male could lead to sexual misconduct charges in this day an age. ARC is a baby boomer/Generation X cusper; I believe mode One was written in the mid-90s; the Golden Age of Day and Night game pre-ubiquitous Internet Age (the original PUAs).

    In 2017, it can be fairly dangerous for the non-select man to step to women saying “I want to fuck you” without building rapport and reading a woman’s body language; a skill set that is not natural to the beta, omega, or gammas. Someone mentioned calibration earlier in the thread, and that is the sort of frame I recommend in most encounters with women outside of your social circle. ARC might consider this Mode 2 behavior, but we are dealing with a different social context than pre-Obama. Since 2008, the sexual market has changed drastically. How does Mode One fit into an era of Instagram & Tinder for example? In this age, women select a man mostly off his looks as online dating and dating apps because the primary way millineials and xennials link up with opposite sex members outside of their social circle is via the web.

    https://www.elitedaily.com/social-news/tinder-model-pics-women-shallow/1811592

    https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-trends/market-research-reports/other-services-except-public-administration/personal-laundry/dating-services.html

    If the Hollywood witch hunt is any red flag, its that for the non-select male; even if he has Beta bucks you have to pass the ‘Hypergamous Filter’, as Rollo said, “we are in a Alpha Fucks” moment; but as the women have proven in Hollywood, they may have taken the Beta bucks in the past for money and access, but whatever shame that that exchange created was an IOU vendetta to be paid in full now. Notice that as of yet, not 1 true Hollywood sex icon has been accused of sexual misconduct in this witch hunt; why is that? So Mode One is really most helpful to the Sigma or potential Alpha who operates in Mode 2, because the True Alpha is already in Mode One naturally or from life experiences.

    The true Alpha or even the introverted Sigma/Alpha is pretty much exempt from the creep designation; it is the lower hierarchy of males that are in the tank.

    Ironically, Rollo says that, “50 Shades is a desperate cry for Alpha Fucks dominance from a generation of low SMV women fed up with a generation of feminized Beta men.” Talk about the bi-Polar sex, so women want to be dominated but have spent the last 40 years using the state apparatus and the media to feminize males; but this could be a cake and eat it too scenario where the FI for economic power in a perceived zero sum game fuels feminization of men; but the biological imperative demands dominant males. Confusion…

  43. Women who are creepy…

    …ugly women who come onto you

    …women who stalk/follow you

    …women (even attractive ones) you don’t know who violate your boundaries

    Men who have no boundaries are just too thirsty for sex. Recently, a strange woman did a grabass on me. When I discussed this with bouncers at a another bar, they said that they wouldn’t take action but would high five me. However, they would kick a man out who did this to a woman. This strikes me as thirsty and lacking boundaries.

  44. The difference is the enforcement by white knights for women.
    It’s just too easy to cry wolf and get a nuclear response.
    During the Stalin purges people learned not to speak to each other at all.
    Thanks friend of the cunt court system.
    Making society less civil by the second.
    I sure am.

  45. Communicating in any form to the woman that you are ashamed of your sexuality is creepyness.
    The person doing is this act is creepy.

  46. @Rollo: again the excellent header art: “male chauvinist pigs” with a hint of Animal Farm. A dark image to start a dark subject.

    Regarding:

    I would argue that a lot of what would otherwise be considered witty banter from a skilled PUA is creepy to women when it comes from a struggling Beta who a woman doesn’t find arousing.

    Well put; words and posture are easy via mimicry. What the Beta misses is the flow assessment of IOIs and IODs which guide the PUA’s words and posture. In a word, as another commenter noted, calibration.

  47. “It’s rather surprising that our species manages to reproduce itself.”

    Large apex predators require large territories to support even a small clan. The mating structures and reproductive systems of apex predators are all tuned for producing small numbers of apex offspring.

    We’re not supposed to fuck like rabbits. It’s supposed to be hard and highly competitive to prevent overpopulation from leading to a catastrophic collapse, or offspring being too pathetic to survive.

  48. J.R.
    “So Mode One is really most helpful to the Sigma or potential Alpha who operates in Mode 2, because the True Alpha is already in Mode One naturally or from life experiences.

    The true Alpha or even the introverted Sigma/Alpha is pretty much exempt from the creep designation; it is the lower hierarchy of males that are in the tank.”

    Id see myself here

    freebird
    “The difference is the enforcement by white knights for women.
    It’s just too easy to cry wolf and get a nuclear response.”

  49. “Debbie Wesson Gibson says that she was 17 in the spring of 1981 when Moore spoke to her Etowah High School civics class about serving as the assistant district attorney. She says that when he asked her out, she asked her mother what she would say if she wanted to date a 34-year-old man. Gibson says her mother asked her who the man was, and when Gibson said “Roy Moore,” her mother said, “I’d say you were the luckiest girl in the world.””

  50. kfg

    Lot of red pill gold in that Moore article…

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/woman-says-roy-moore-initiated-sexual-encounter-when-she-was-14-he-was-32/2017/11/09/1f495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html?utm_term=.1e725db62047

    which of course is not behind their paywall…

    Aside from Corfman, three other women interviewed by The Washington Post in recent weeks say Moore pursued them when they were between the ages of 16 and 18 and he was in his early 30s, episodes they say they found flattering at the time, but troubling as they got older.

    And he often walked, usually alone, around the newly opened Gadsden Mall — 6 feet tall and well-dressed in slacks and a button-down shirt, say several women who worked there at the time.

    “He was charming and smiley,” she says.

    “I was kind of giddy, excited, you know? An older guy, you know?” Corfman says, adding that her only sexual experience at that point had been kissing boys her age.

    She remembers that Moore told her she was pretty, put his arm around her and kissed her, and that she began to feel nervous and asked him to take her home, which she says he did.

    Soon after, she says, he called again, and picked her up again at the same spot.

    “This was a new experience, and it was exciting and fun and scary,” Corfman says, explaining why she went back. “It was just like this roller-coaster ride you’ve not been on.

    After talking to her friends, Corfman says, she began to feel that she had done something wrong

    “My mom was really, really strict and my curfew was 10:30 but she would let me stay out later with Roy,” says Deason, who is now 57 and lives in North Carolina. “She just felt like I would be safe with him. . . . She thought he was good husband material.

    Miller, who is now 54 and still lives in Alabama, says she was “flattered by the attention.

    Now that I’ve gotten older,” she says, “the idea that a grown man would want to take out a teenager, that’s disgusting to me.”

    Ex post facto backward rationalization of the crone…

  51. I get creeped out by guys who immediately start talking about sexual topics in response to everything you say, every single time you are within communicating distance of each other while you two barely know each other…

    I had a guy that found a way to turn everything I said sexual.

    Common features of FR’s. “Oh my god!!! You turn everything I say sexual… I’m afraid to open my mouth”… giggle giggle giggle…”

    The other day a woman to two others “you see what I mean!!!! You see what he does!!! giggle giggle giggle”…

    Balazs

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/style/andre-balazs-accused-of-groping-standard-chateau-marmont.html

    Sarah said they stayed at dinner a short time, before Mr. Balazs suggested they leave.

    They went to a mud-wrestling club. There, Sarah said, he grabbed her arm, pinned her against a wall and covered her mouth with his mouth. He put his hand down the front of her pants and pushed his fingers in her vagina.

    Hmmm this reads like a FR I posted last spring… that ended with a heartfelt thank you Sentient.

  52. Being called a “creep” is just a shit test. It’s become a meme because so many men fail them. It’s even harder as you get older cuz some guys internalize thinking they are being creepy. Lol. I just demonstrated flirtiness to a millennial guy who works for me while at a Starbucks. Noticed a group of three girls dressed in hospital looking outfits, made some comment, smiled my smirk, had the right posture and even though I was wrong – they were “aestheticians” in some retail store, they all giggled and smiled. But initially there was a second of that look ‘why is this guy talking to us’? Could have easily been put in “creep” category, but instead got a huge IOI from one of the girls.

    Easy peasy. Just have to be alpha, and emotionally/socially intelligent. You guys can learn that from a YouTube video, no problem…World’s got to have Betas. Game makes them believe they can change their lot, lol. It’s funny to watch them work. Makes it so much easier for me.

    Hope all you guys are out their slaying it in your lives. My life is unrecognizable from 4 years ago. Leadership position at a growing tech company, fitness and style way up, income up, hell, i’m even back to driving a fine piece of German automotive engineering around.

    Damn, it’s good to be a gangster!

  53. There’s a difference imo in a guy who repetitively finds himself as an accused creep (the guy who needs to reassess), and an ambitious approacher who finds himself cast that way at times, and it’s usually in the delivery.

    Just like any rejection, taking it in stride and how you react can at least save face. I can always see it right there in her expression when I’ve botched it.. at that point I usually shift to a brotherly approach, or make a slight self-deprecation with a laugh (a little agree and amplify) and a comment about how I’m gonna go creep this other girl out over here, with a wink, and let her watch me go launch an approach at some other chick, which can actually reverse the effect.. suddenly you’re just a guy who had an awkward moment, and now that she’s left alone again, she raises that other eyebrow, and wonders if she was too quick to judge.

    Every situ is different but the point is, it ain’t no different than any other rejection. don’t internalize it.. embrace it.

  54. Paglia is a trip. Good find on your part, rugby11, as she references the link between male sexuality and hunting. Precisely the connection I made while reading Rollo’s paragraph on persistence. It is easy to let urgency overcome prudence and thus spook (creep out) the field. Persistent patience, reading sign, and blending makes for a good field day.

  55. How not to be a creep…

    1. go out to have fun and entertain yourself and bring the party to others…flirt a lot

    2. calibrate the girl’s reactions and back off as needed, while maintaining your frame

    3. calibrate the reactions of the girls friends

    4. game the girl’s friends

  56. “YES! He’s tried approaching me like four times, twice in Thompson. The first time he approached me, he just came straight up to me, kissed me on my hand (he kind of just yanked my hand up, because he took me by surprise), and tried to stroke my hair. I was like WTF?! Second time he tried to approach me in Thompson like we were supposed to be friends or something and I’m like nope Nope NOPE! I had to literally push past him, as I was leaving the downstairs bathroom and he confronted me in the hallway. I was then “Get the fuck away from me. I don’t know you.” He was still trying to persist and corner me and literally no one, in the crowded library, tried to step in despite me being obviously distressed. Maybe, it’s just me, but if I saw someone in the same position I was in, I would’ve stepped in.
    So, when I’ve seen him try to do similar things to girls on campus and on High Street. I try to step in every time I see it happen because no one had the courtesy to do that for me. I’ve been seriously ruminating about trying to file a complaint against him but I don’t even know his real name or who to go to, at least on campus. So yeah, that’s my story. He’s a creep and I seriously get sick to my stomach every time I see him.”

  57. “Holy shit, I can’t believe what I am reading. I am a freshman at OSU and my encounter with this guy was the first humiliating thing that has happened to me and actually made me fear for my life a little bit.
    I have no experience with being picked up or flirted with. I was walking back to my dorm in the middle of the day the first week of school, when he comes up and asks where BDubs is, says he transferred from UCLA, and that I look like an “LA girl” with my hair. He pulls out his phone and starts typing a number, I didn’t want to give him my number but I’m inexperienced and figured I just wouldn’t text him back.
    He texts me later wanting to bar hop, even though I don’t drink. I say I’m not into dating as I have a bf, he says not to worry it’s just a “casual hangout sesh”. I get friends to go with me but I don’t see him where he told me to meet him so we blow him off. Few days later I feel bad for doing that so I say I’ll meet him there at 11. Big mistake. I thought we’d be walking the streets but he brings me into his dark room and closes the door. I actually ask him if he’s a dangerous person and if he’s going to rape me or something. I think he was kinda taken aback. He gets to talking and asking about me, saying he’s in law school like other people have said, says he’s bi, wants me to drink even though I told him I don’t drink. Then he does this “game” where I name “how many strawberries are in a field”, I say a big number, and he says that’s how many sexual desires I have or something like that. At this point I was like “ho shit I gotta get out of here” and he keeps trying to kiss me and makeout, I’m like no, I’m gonna leave. He just lays back on his bed noticeably disappointed, looking at his phone. I leave.
    Weeks later I see him as I come out of Independence. He says “hey you’re kinda cute, what’s your number”, I look up and say “I already have your number”. I think he realized he’s already tried me so he says nothing and just walks passed me.
    Then I saw him in Gateway one night with some other guy. Didn’t recognize me I hope.
    EDIT: OH YEAH and in one of his blog posts he says he uses a piggyback ride tactic to carry girls to his room. Yup happened to me. Learned my lesson.
    Anyways just thought I’d share my experience. I am glad I wasn’t the only one meeting this dude. I hate this guy.”

    Buyers remorse… w no bang…

  58. As you pointed out, Rollo, women tend to view SMV values of males as lower than they objectively are. Like… a 5 (average male) would be viewed as a 3, and then her sensibilities will be insulted because ‘why is a 3 trying to hit on me?’ It makes her feel insecure because it makes her question her own SMV. ‘Am I not totally out of his league?’ And she’s offended that he doesn’t think so. Calling him a creep is really her lashing out against that.

    Not to mention, when these average to below average males flirt, it’s usually quite awkwardly because they don’ have the confidence of attractive males. That adds to the ‘creep’ vibe that we get from them.

  59. Sentient
    (Roy Moore 1970’s story)

    Ex post facto backward rationalization of the crone…

    Not even sure it is rationalization. Women tend to rewrite their own personal history. If this woman in her 50’s is a mother, what was exciting at age 16 now looks “troubling” because while it was OK when she did it, it’s not OK for her daughter.

    Have seen this in my own family / social circle. Always entertaining when some aging hippie with an N north of 30 decides to lay down the law to a younger female relation.

    Not to mention that the 1970’s were a different world from the 2010’s in many ways.

    Will repeat: “creepy” is subjective, and will add that it is situational.

  60. I am embarking on a mini-crusade to push back where I can on the correct meanings of the overheated and overused words “chauvinism” and “misogyny”. Oddly, all this panty-twisting about endemic Beta creepiness presents a unique opportunity to reclaim the correct definitions of these terms.

    “Chauvinism” – named after a loyal-suckup-toady officer in Napoleon’s army – is blind obedience and super-allegiance to a superior or to a state. Deep-fried patriotism, if you like. Nothing the superior does is wrong, and there is just obedience uber Alles. So-called male chauvinists as that term is used in modern parlance do not fit this definition of partisan loyalists, whereby men are covering for the sins of other men, or promoting other men as a class in opposition to all women. (Seems rather the opposite is in ascendancy, yes?)

    “Misogyny” is dictionary-defined as hatred of women, not mere disrespect. Now Ol’ Harvey’s conduct is so pathological he might meet that nastier standard. But not the butthurt grumblings of a Beta boy who got the LJBF or a PUA student who strikes out. My point is that mostly this word is used as a mega-shaming sobriquet for what is really rudeness or disrespect. Which can be bad indeed, as in making a personal remark when one shouldn’t. It does not connote base hatred towards one half of the species. Its modern misusage obviously is intended to conflate those two things.

    All I’ll say about Roy Moore is the story wouldn’t be so galling if he wasn’t so sanctimoniously galling himself: saying 9/11 happened to us because of all the serious sucking and fucking everyone else was doing, which means we forgot God. But he can do it and it’s OK, whatevs.

    I mean, Anthony Weiner just went to jail for this shit and he wasn’t even in the same room with the underage gal he was soliciting. So did Dennis Hastert (but he was in the locker room with his boys, hey I mistyped that as licker room, oops). British entertainer Rolf Harris, who first broke in the 1950’s and is now in his ninth decade, got dead time in Wormwood Scrubs for doing similar gropings of teens going back to the 1980’s, all of which were recalled and prosecuted decades later. (Wikipedia has the lowdown). Fun fact: HIS public monuments got pulled down in a hurry (as did those of outed limey dead guy Jimmy Saville).

    Anyroad, my magic 8-ball says Moore will win. Alabama politics is still informed by the concept that nothing knocks you out of the box except “being in bed with a dead girl or a live boy”, which this ain’t. Plus his chauvinist (!!) Churchian followers will stick with him.

  61. Calibration to avoid being labelled as “creepy” is only possible after your approach.

    It’s impossible to calibrate your SMV in relation to your target as it’s not possible to be sure of her TYPE.

    I do very badly with women who’s type is the metrosexual pretty boy hipster look, if she’s looking for a ken doll to dress and accessorise to show off to her friends I’m just not going to appeal to her.

    I do very well with women who like big rugged masculine looking men and can date above my Generalised SMV with this group as I’m their type.

    I do ok with women who sit somewhere between these two groups.

    It’s pointless saying to yourself my SMV is X so I will approach only girls of SMV X or lower so as not to be seen as creepy!
    Unless you know her type you cannot know what her subjective appraisal of your SMV will be.

    The only thing you can do is approach the girls that you find attractive ( even if you think their SMV is higher than yours) because if you are her type she will assess your SMV more favourably and see you as satisfying her hypergamy.

    It works both ways too, I have a friend who is very much a pretty boy type who is dating a catwalk model type girl who most men would assess as a hb8-9.

    However to me while I can see she is pretty in the face she has hardly any tits ass or thighs and therefore zero sexual appeal, to me her SMV is low although I know most men would love to date her.

    Be confident and calm and don’t show any kind of butt hurt if your approach isn’t well received, simply say “enjoy your night” and your chances of being labelled as creepy are drastically reduced.

    It is true that creepy has been redefined as a display of sexual interest from any man her ego believes is beneath the minimum acceptable SMV that would satisfy her hypergamy.

    Challenging times for any man not in the top 20% and a bonanza for the top 1-2% of men.
    Women have polarised towards alpha fucks and short of some sort of societal/economic collapse it doesn’t look like changing any time soon.

  62. The subject of creepiness came up when I was getting to know my now-20yo live-in gf. She was 19 at the time. My response? ‘I’m not a creep I’m a pervert!”. Got a big laugh out of that. Once I showed her just how perverted I was then everything was fine.

  63. “All I’ll say about Roy Moore is the story wouldn’t be so galling if he wasn’t so sanctimoniously galling himself . . .”

    I don’t like Roy Moore, and he wouldn’t like me, but I can separate my dislike from the logical situation.

    And the clip I posted was about the mother, not Moore.

    “Is a 34 year old guy hitting on my 17 year old daughter creepy? How the hell should I know? You haven’t told me who he is yet.”

  64. “My response? ‘I’m not a creep I’m a pervert!””

    No sugar britches, you’ve got it all wrong. I’d be a pervert if I didn’t hit on you.

  65. Same campus (OSU) even smaller microcosm… local grocery store (that people go to over and over and over). Very different approach and outcome. No mobs with torches… No upside down glasses… lol

  66. Another day, same store… Basic, normal bro who understands some game. Socially calibrated… looks boring, but works.

  67. Social miscalibration…

    I want to address the stories told to The New York Times by five women named Abby, Rebecca, Dana, Julia who felt able to name themselves and one who did not.

    These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was O.K. because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true. But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn’t a question. It’s a predicament for them. – Louis C.K.

  68. @JR, I have a lot of respect for Alan and I do believe in the pragmatism of a man not wasting his time with endless indirect Game. I wrote NEXT to address this:

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/01/19/next/

    That said, we live in an era where simply approaching a woman to ask her out or get a number is literally becoming a criminal act:

    https://qz.com/1106465/a-new-french-law-will-fine-men-on-the-spot-for-harassing-women-in-public/

    So where does that leave “are you DTF?” Game?

  69. I think women use the term “creepy” way to liberally today. In my experience it’s often the projection of their own insecurities and short comings on to the men they deem as easy targets. That’s not to say that there are no creepsters out there, but I do believe the majority of these accusations are grossly exaggerated. There was a time I had a party where I invited some friends from work along with other friendly acquaintances. There was one over-weight shrewish loudmouth woman who proceeded to badmouth one of my work-friends to the other guest. The guy, she was calling a creep, was decent guy. He was big guy, well read, respectful, hard working and great conversationalist. I asked her quietly away from the party, what did he do? She said that she didn’t like the way he was looking at her. And that was enough for her to mount a grotesque warpath against a decent person. This woman was not decent in any way. Quite frankly, she was a pig. She was actually dating a criminal sociopath. But of course, he wasn’t creepy or violent at all. I’ve seen this type of preemptive behavior from subpar women a lot lately and like false rape claims, their reckless accusations are going to pollute the waters to the point where the term becomes meaningless.

  70. Fred Flange
    I am embarking on a mini-crusade to push back where I can on the correct meanings of the overheated and overused words “chauvinism” and “misogyny”.

    Good luck on that. You’ll need a sidekick named “Sancho” to do this the right way. Might be a good idea to learn some Spanish, too.

    All I’ll say about Roy Moore …

    Followed by multiple paragraphs of stuff. Ok. Let’s call rewrite:

    “Dear Penthouse Forum: I am a conservative Christian Republican woman of 53 years living in North Carolina, but when I was 14 I had a wild side…”

    Yeah, that’s credible. If you’re a pantsuited feminist or a low-T cuck.

    Or try a different way of thinking: Roy Moore was controversial back in the 90’s, and again in the 00’s. Why didn’t these shocking, true-life stories ripped from the headlines come out then? Why didn’t the DNC roll this stuff out in response to Monica Lewinsky’s quality time in the oral office, when it would have been a twofer: defend Bubba Clinton, smear GOP Alabama SC judge?

    Here’s the real question:
    How much money did the WashPost pay for this story that doesn’t even rise to the level of fanfic?

    I mean, Anthony Weiner just went to jail for this shit and he wasn’t even in the same room with the underage gal he was soliciting

    Well, duh.
    Does the term “statute of limitations” mean anything to you? Plus the word “evidence”, as in “actual electronic image sent from Weiner’s phone to underage girl”, vs. “something someone sorta remembers from back when Jimmy Carter was President”, does that mean anything to you?

    Supposedly in Letters to Penthouse a 30-something Roy Moore got into a heavy petting session with a 14 year old back in the 1970’s That’s 40 years ago. So no way he’s going to jail for that.

    What’s interesting is Moore has threatened to file charges. That could put Mrs. Dear Penthouse on the stand under oath, maybe. Or not, if it all blows over.

    C’mon, what’s the real gripe, Don Fred? What’s actually got you all stirred up about some election in Alabama?

  71. Say, maybe this “Sean Larson” at OSU is really a fugitive: Haven Monahan, on the run in disguse. Rolling Stone should send some intrepid girl reporters to OSU right away.

  72. The dude Sean Larson… I don’t think I’d classify him as a ” creep “, but he is strange imo. Oddly uncalibrated and fake. Plus he looks like he needs a nap or something.

    But knowing what I know about younger women, I can definitely see why some of them would be creeped out by his mannerisms. He’s tryng to be cool, relaxed and nonchalant, but he comes off as ” try hard ” while trying not to look that way. Plus, he doesn’t get how kino with girls you don’t know is supposed to work.

    But many women like the attention, so he won’t always get told to fuck off or get called out to his face.

    Plus, on his youtube channel there’s a vid of him making out with a girl on a bed. Lol, fucking kids. I know what he’s trying to show, but c’mon dude, you got a girl to come to wherever you are, isolated, and she voluntarily sits on your bed. Who’s frame was this? Looks like the chick picked him up.

    Pro Tip: Take the giant wad of gum out of your mouth before you start making out. Lol.

    All of that awkwardness and persistence is gonna get him in some real trouble one day. But I’m sure that he thinks everything is just fine because he’s talking to girls and getting some nimbers and getting some hugs and probably getting some trim… in the chicks frame. She’s fucking him. Lol.

    Hopefully he’s smart enough to know when to call it a day. the OSU gig is up.

  73. Daily beach runner here who regularly ignores IOI’s from low-SMV female creeps and hypergamous wives/GF’s shit testing their companions. Of course, I also ignore the RBF majority.

    But I do respond with a ‘good morning’, ‘hi’, or just a wave to the rarer – a couple times a week – solo HMV’s IOI. I never stop to talk, but if I see them again and they indicate they recognize me I ask their name and use it when greeting them in the future. Works for confidence and soft dread.

    Despite being married for 40 years I have zero interest in pursuing these liaisons, but if/when the old lady throws me over, I will hit the ground running. Something to look forward to perhaps.

  74. @Rollo

    I love the fact that Alan Currie is honest about the status of gammas and omega types being stuck in a Mode 4 behavior pattern; which is their right, but until prostitution is legalized in America I don’t see any positive benefits of Mode 4 behavior, but that’s me.

    Still, I disagree about the ‘indirect game’ being a waste of time in general dating, pursuit of LTR exempted. I’ve read the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene; and seduction literally means ‘to lead astray’. I’m of the frame of mind that many women want to be seduced; and enjoy it.

    Likewise, like I said before Alan is from Generation X, in the 1980s & 1990s, that was the Golden age of PUA IMO. In those days a case could be made that it was not sufficient to have great verbal skills/seductive skills but its was necessary, unless you were rich, famous, or 10% in looks. In 2017, it is sufficient and preferable to have stellar verbal and intuitive skills, but not necessary. Anyone who has spent any time on Tinder and Instagram knows that in terms of securing modern day pussy, your best investment is a gym membership, a clean diet and developing a v-taper and keeping the gut off.

    Why? because these women have changed places with men putting the body before the brain, many will disagree with me, but that’s what I’m seeing out here. The ‘Hypergamous Filter” is more real than ever…sure, women will always accept money, gifts and favors, but they don’t need men’s resources as they did prior to 1990s.

    In 2017, as you stated, “simply approaching a woman to ask her out or get a number is literally becoming a criminal act” Where are you going to say DTF in modern America without putting your job or financial security at risk? College campus? Nope. Work? Nope. Club maybe, because you could easily end up in a headlock being escorted out for ‘harassing’ women. Now, I am speaking for non-select dudes, not alpha/sigmas.

    I make the case that women have flipped the script, on Twitter you said, “In an era when women’s PROVISIONING side of Hypergamy is taken care of the only thing left is Alpha Fucks.” Many women before this era, had serious economic incentives to find a willing beta to provide and protect; but the women ushered in no-fault divorce and draconian child support laws. Inan age where women are the primary beneficiaries of workplace affirmative action and are the majority on college campuses; they are in a position to select the males that give them the most arousal.

    If the beta male was a utility before 1995, he has become mostly unnecessary for the majority of women in America, so the male majority is competing for the bottom 40% of women or going MGTOW or becoming anti-socials like these mass shooters.

    Seductive skills are more necessary in this age of political correctness, police state tyranny than ever with female misandry running wild. Intense self improvement for the non-select male and mastery of seduction is a damn good option. You Mode one a woman once you have seduced her, unless you are a true Alpha. And never think it is all book study, you should still continue to talk to women to put in the field work but it is your choice…

  75. “Autism, Asperger’s Syndrome or just acute social awkwardness is sometimes manageable and we either accept it as part of their personality or we understand it as a disorder and we (as “normies”) choose to ignore it. This is where the social conditioning of today does us a disservice to some extent.

    In our feminine-primary social order of tolerance and acceptance, this innate, often peripheral or unconscious, sense of understanding that something is off about someone is something we are taught we ought to keep sublimated. We don’t want to appear “judgmental” or we’re shamed for actually heeding the messages our instincts are telling us are red flags about people. Conditions and disorders that we used to consider abnormalities in the past are things we’re expected to progressively have more and more empathy for. That isn’t to say that we ought not be sympathetic to a person’s condition, but it is to say that this expectation of acceptance reduces our capacity to listen to what our instinct is telling us about a person. We get conditioned to tuning out our natural instincts about a person who may want to harm or manipulate us.”

    Wyoming high school boy with autism and an IQ of 40 is accused and charged with sexual assault (unlawful contact) for hugging a younger female student when his arm andhand touched her buttocks. The response by the school, law enforcement, the parents and the community on social media is instructive:

    http://www.wyomingnews.com/news/local_news/cheyenne-families-respond-to-autistic-teen-being-charged-with-unlawful/article_c07799b2-226b-11e7-ab8b-9b65fcb8fc4d.html

    The legal escalations and the diametrically opposed points of view of the same event from the two mothers is demonstrative of what constitutes “creepy”, what constitutes parental negligence and lack of corrective instruction. On the other side it also shines a light on the impulsive reaction to a female fear of danger, the open and public insult to hypergamy, the protective response from the victim’s mother, the protective counter from the community on social media that “yeah, he’s awkward, but harmless and cute” and “Caleb hugs everybody (and that’s cool)”.

    Parents with autistic children are often elated that their boys/sons might communicate at all, or show interest or genuine affection (hugs) to other people, male or female. Most autistic children are so distracted and in another world. So it’s not without considerable embarrassment and unease whenever the autistic son hugs a teacher, or a neighbor or even a stranger when he says goodbye. It’s can be very awkward (and very creepy) when he hugs a girl that he was playing with and now considers his friend at the public swimming pool.

    Neurotypical men need not have a low IQ, a psychological disorder or accidentally graze a female’s gluteus maximus.

    A dude need only dress funny and make eye contact and it’s creepy as fuck.

    FWIW Caleb Tidwell’s case eventually dismissed:
    http://www.wyomingnews.com/news/local_news/charge-filed-against-cheyenne-teen-with-autism-gets-dismissed/article_744ce43c-69e9-11e7-b5d8-1385ec1e3abc.html

  76. On the manosphere I see a lot of situations where we have to look at one or other negative highlight of some aspect of femaleness.

    But on being creeped out, I think us men carry the trophy home; and solipsistically shamelessly too, for that matter.

    So as creepiness is a function of SMV (the less the SMV, the creepier)…I mean just look at those pigs up there, can you imagine anyone getting sexual with it…in all honesty?, thanks Rollo your images are great!; we as men must admit we are guilty of this just as much as women are. There are hordes of women out there you just dont see, and unless when one brings it to your attention, they are not spoken to, they do not get a “hi” in the corridor, they do not get the “innocent” hug that the petite smiley chick gets from time to time when she bumps into you in the course of the day/week/month. Thing is, I think (maybe) women are better at taking the hint than men, or (maybe) men are better at communicating disinterest. They try once, twice and maybe three times and they get it. They may never know why, may be they stink, have funny teeth, are shapeless, too busty (yes there is such a thing), etc. You never tell. The strange thing is that sometimes people mutually find each other creepy. You arrive and your hands just cross, and her’s too. You want to leave. You pray for a babysitter to emerge from thin air and you hand her over at first opportunity. She is probably relieved too (I hope).

    What I am not getting is the position that creepiness should arise only when in a sexual context. I think creepiness is simply the subconscious state that he/she is a no-go-zone. It is usually never said. It exists. It is experienced on daily basis. We creep and we are creeped. It is not a crime, it is not a surprise, just a natural state of affairs.

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