I thought this was an interesting comment from CaveClown from a few posts ago. Needless to say the commentariat has increased in the last 6 months and I wanted to air this out rather than have it buried five pages deep:
Rollo, question if you have time.
After unsuccessfully searching the archives, and having read your new book, i wonder if you have a post that further explains:1. Why a “good girl” would skip the party years.
2. Why that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider.I understand that the “good girl” persona is just an attempt at seduction through differentiating herself from the “sluts”
I also understand that the “promise” of dropping the good girl act ‘for him’ is what snags the beta. The promise of her “sexual best” and all. (which is why women that do ride the carousel go “born again” later, no?)
At first glance, it seems like a solid strategy for hypergamy. If she can sell herself as virtuous, pure, and virginal, then she should have higher SMV.
Then why settle for a beta?
I’m trying to reconcile the “good girl” persona, and the manosphere trope about marrying a virgin. Seems a lot of men think that “if I could just find a virgin” things would be ok for them. (which is just a variation of blue pill/soul mate stuff)
I detailed a bit of the first question in Making Up For Missing Out and Good Girls Do. It’s important to make the distinction between a ‘good girl’ in that she’s nominally following the old-set-of-books traditional social contract, and the Good Girl strategy I went into in the latter post.
Bear in mind, no woman actually “skips” the Party Years. She may participate to greater or lesser degree in the opportunities those years open up to her, but she’s still keenly aware of those opportunities and realizes the window for them closes as her beauty and fertility fade. She sees her girlfriends, maybe sisters, indulge those opportunities, or she may live them vicariously through media that panders to them, but regardless, she’s feeling the pull of knowing she could potentially realize them.
One of my best friends married his first wife very early – him 21, and her 19. The guy was very Alpha (military), but had the White Knight script firmly coded into him courtesy of his Blue Pill conditioning. He did everything by the old set of books and knew he wanted to marry her after they’d been together for about eight months. He wasn’t her first lay, but she didn’t have more than 1 previous boyfriend, so while not a virgin she hadn’t been on the proverbial carousel for long at all.
They had three kids, early and out of the gate right after they married. She ‘played house’ well enough all through her 20’s while her sisters and girlfriends had their Party Years and urged her to come along for their GNOs. Once their youngest was old enough to be self-sufficient she started joining them. By the time she was 33 the marriage was over because she’d decided to follow the making up for missing out dynamic. She ended up cheating on him and then doing her version of the Wild Oats Project.
Virgin Brides Alpha Widows
There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature.
By all measure this guy’s wife was as close to that ideal as was practical. He’s also one of more than a dozen men I’ve known who’s “good Christian wives” detonated their marriages in a similar fashion. Generally all went along with the divorce-porn fantasies after their dutiful husbands had become boring Betas in their esteem.
2. Why [would] that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider.
Religious conviction, LSE (low self esteem), definitely cultural or economic motivations, a fear of men in general leading to security issues. You also have to consider the likelihood that the guy she settles on early is possibly the most Alpha guy she’s ever experienced.
Of the 40+ women I’ve had in my sexual past, two were virgins. Both of these women sought me out on Face Book 15-20 years after we’d went our separate ways. They are definitely not the same girls I knew back then, but I think this is an interesting illustration of a larger dynamic. Then and now, both of these girls surprised me with their attachment to me – I think that’s part of a bond you make with a woman when you’re her first.
It’s the “never forget your first” dynamic. There’s a presumption that any guy a “good girl” grants access to her pussy must be a top tier man to qualify for it. This is an ingrained psychological schema for women with the self perception of being a “good girl”.
So she consolidates on what she perceives was Alpha for her at 18. That perception is markedly different from what she’ll perceive as Alpha at 29, right as she enters her Epiphany Phase. If you read back through the Preventive Medicine series (or the book), I specifically outline a phase on women maturation timeline called the Break Phase. This is generally around the late teens (17-19) and I noted it in particular because it’s a moment in a young man’s life when his Blue Pill idealism is most commonly first tested.
The flip side of the Break Phase for women is the “never forget your first” dynamic conflicting with the opportunities her rapidly approaching peak SMV phase present to her. There may be an emotional investment on her part with a man she up to that point esteemed as the most Alpha man she was likely to ever pair with.
The Jig is Up
The danger inherent in these arrangements is that both young men and women make life-altering decisions based on their adolescent social skill set – not what will be their (hopefully) matured adult social skill set based on their experiences and acculturation. Thus you have the common situation my now-divorced friend experienced. I say common because one of the most frequent situations I get asked advice about from divorced men in their mid 30’s to early 40’s is how to initiate Game and wisely use their new Red Pill awareness after having been married since 23 or so.
For the most part they’re still confused how the woman who’d found them so Alpha at that age could toss off all of the relational equity he’d thought he’d earned with her and leave him for the ‘douchebags’ she’d always claimed to hate. What they don’t (or didn’t) realize is the root level resentment they’re experiencing with a woman they may have been married to for 15 years. That resentment stems from coming to terms with their Hypergamous filtering having been ‘fooled’ all those years ago; and the crush loss of not having been able to capitalize on the opportunities of those years.
It’s not that she’d settled for what she thought was a Beta in her early twenties, it’s that he was what she thought was Alpha then, but learned later that he wasn’t. This is the risk inherent to Hypergamy – that a woman might miss out on more optimal sexual selection choices while still in her peak SMV phase and able to choose from the broadest pool.
It’s almost a reversal of women who follow the Sandberg plan of Hypergamy and make disclaimers of how different they are now from how they used to be in college. The sentiment is still the same, but the roles are reversed – she’s different now from how she used to be because she (thinks) she has a better grasp of what is Alpha now and he ain’t it.
If there’s a silver lining to this it’s that this post-marriage Epiphany Phase generally happens earlier in a man’s life. If he’s made a lot of his potential up to then, and the divorce wasn’t too devastating, he’s in a far better position as far as life stage is concerned than the Beta guy a woman settles for at 29 after her Party Years. That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.
And insanity honestly please shut up.
My first gf almost fucked my life over in terms of future opportunities (medical school) so having some analysis on intergender relations (which is what most of the sphere does) will help me move forward and prosper and understand.
You’re not understanding any of this I can tell
“You’re not understanding any of this I can tell”
I understand far more then you think. Please use your head? Listen to the words these men are speaking to you, listen to how many times they have demanded you respect them, listen to how they have expressed their doubt in your ability to do it. They’re playing you and you don’t even see it. They got a game all of their own going on.
Now listen Will, I’m going to go away and leave you in peace. Just please think about what I’ve said, okay?
Sorry, but I think my several last posts with links to The Myth the Man blog sent my comments into moderation, so the flow of my advice might not be too timely or smooth in regard to Will. Niceness is not your forte Will. Being good at being a man is where you want to aim. Strength, Courage, Mastery and Honor. (not frat boy congratulations for having a decent N count and just passing the easiest time of your life.) Have red pill awareness (whereas you are still plugged into the bluepill comfort) and be better at game. Game is… Read more »
Insanity – “Will sweetie, these men know absolutely nothing about what it means to be a man.” Tell us then woman what it means to be a man. “No love, you know right where you are. You are awesome. It is they that are confused. Please use your head and walk away from this crap.There are better places to learn what you need to know.” Translation: Just be yourself. Know your place, and never seek to rise above it. “Because I actually care about men…” Translation: because I care about what men can do for me and I don’t want… Read more »
Ok @yareally and @sjfrellc this thread just got a little outta hand lol. But @yareally I thought you would probably agree with me regarding Julian’s cheesiness (sometimes) and his examples of passing a shit test are kinda bad. But I guess its cause these “sessions” are geared towards guys who are uber bad with girls and justt learning how to interact w/ girls/game. Still I guess he does a good job of pointing things out.
I’m out for a bit. Peace out
@Will, read this:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/04/26/fear-and-freedom/
@Will
Ignore insanity. She will never have anything useful to say here. You could call her Rollo & YaReally’s polar opposite.
Will, there is no point in arguing with women, and there is no point in having their input into Men’s Issues.Having a woman “help” with Men’s Issues is like having a five year old “help” you put up wallpaper.
I’m still indifferent. Indifference got me laid once among the three times this week. I’m still shooting for four. It’s ovulation week. Thanks Rollo for getting me off the IV drip sex routine. No negotiation of desire. Only the real stuff. I’m done with the anxiety and the soft dread of last week. Life is Beautiful. It’s grad party season in the community and the socialization for my introverted self is quite well and good. Had conversations that were quite engaging and intriguing that are segues from comments section here. I dreaded socialization two years ago, now I game and… Read more »
“I’m not patronizing you, Will. You already have far more worth and value then these men here do and you have your whole life ahead of you. I want to see you live and love and thrive.” I can’t fucking stand it. Will she’s saying please be a pussy and bow to the feminine imperative. I, SJF, am living loving and thriving and absolutely nothing that you have been advised by men advocating for men has been contrary to you having a LTR and living loving and thriving. This is a blog that is dedicated to men living loving and… Read more »
@sjfrellc
Hahah, stop reading her posts at all man. Scroll past always. Address her existence (never her directly) only to assure others that ignoring her is fine.
“Ok @sjfrellc this thread just got a little outta hand ” No. Nothing is out of hand here. This is small potatoes. The shit hits the fan in 5, 10, 20 years down the road. You haven’t seen nothing yet. Wake up Will. You just finished the easiest part of your life. Listen to the old experienced fuckers. They look back and see you need a better FRAME. Wake up to the red pill. Stop trying to get laid and having a high N count if your natural goal which you have stated is to have a LTR with a… Read more »
Insanity
I would never ever ever ever listen to someone he/she chose the name Insanity56.
Insanity,
What do you think about anal sex? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZF5m-vmDzM
“Hahah, stop reading her posts at all man. Scroll past always. Address her existence (never her directly) only to assure others that ignoring her is fine.” Sun, buddy, you know I did my best, all along here i have held my indifference, but I just had to ejaculate ( online after just ejaculating into my wife) after I couldn’t hold off any more on the intercourse of how much BS that was to force Will to be nice rather than be a masculine male and be good at being a masculine male. Rather, she would implore him to be the… Read more »
I feel sorry for both Insanity&her poor husband.
I can’t imagine a man being with her and I feel sympathetic towards her.
I doubt she had been with a real man and she feels safer in her bubble.
Keep on protecting your reality because if you don’t, ,,,
@Badpainter
“Translation: You were a huge a beta just the way we wanted you to be.”
27 yrs…
Growing up
@Will
Try this get both Rollos books star with the first one and make notes about your life. Also join on and speak to forge on Sun Wukongs pobcast.
@Insanity
Would love to speak with you in person sometime. As for here you don’t even have to posture with your words.
This thread with Will and Insanity just makes me shake my head. No wonder it’s tough for dudes to unplug from being a blue pill chump. You can just see this in real life right? Will – The poor guy who got dumped by his supposed lifemate. A former lifemate who now is happily going on as if Will never happened. Insanity – the oh so helpful female ‘friend’ who tells him he’s “sweet” and “great guy” and “some girl will see that in the future”… blah blah Male posters on Comments – Will’s buddys trying to tell him what… Read more »
@Ang Aamer Was thinking about that tonight when I was jogging. Quite honestly it seems to me that every time a woman gives a man all the shit BP Beta advice, she’s telling him to be the man she wishes she could be aroused by. She’s telling herself “I wish I could get the tingles for this kind of guy, so that’s the kind of guy I’ll tell him he should be.” To some degree I suspect it truly is about keeping the world stocked with enough BB to cover demand, but the majority is about her wish that she… Read more »
Perhaps I’m more cynical, but I think it’s also because she wants both types of guys available to her and other women. I don’t think she wishes she was attracted to Will, I think she’s terrified that she’s attracted to brutish Alpha men and this hectoring seeks to assuage that shameful desire. Listen to her earlier comments, it was all about how dangerous and violent men are, she really is scared of alpha men. But she also prefers to fuck them, as she’s said herself here, she married an alpha male (according to her). That alone is funny cuz any… Read more »
insanitybytes22
June 5th, 2015 at 10:54 pm
I was hoping you could help me fix a broken world instead.
Being broken and not working the way you expect are different things. You problem is probably the latter. To confuse it with the former is to ask for hurt in copious quantities.
Shiva H. P.
June 6th, 2015 at 1:38 pm
In terms of TRM, you have lost when you use a wingman.
I was wondering about that. I came to the same conclusion. I couldn’t figure out why in hell you would need one. What purpose does it serve? What kind of game do you play? “You annoy her and I’ll rescue her” Eh?
Or you split her between you? Or???
My preference was always for two at a time. I mostly settled for one. But still…..
scribblerg June 7th, 2015 at 6:57 am That alone is funny cuz any bitch running as wild as she is here has clearly not been properly dominated. A woman who has submitted is not as full of angst as Insanity is. “Proper domination” is temporary. When the hormones are up she swoons. “Oooooooooh a MAN!!” When they are down she rebels. “How could you treat me like that? Don’t you want just me? Aren’t I enough for you?” (To myself “Well honey you really aren’t enough.”) AWALT. Now you might find one full of hormones all the time. But I… Read more »
@All – Some of you may recognize me…It’s Glenn. I prefer the WordPress identity going forward for a number of reasons, so you won’t see anymore posts from me as Glenn. Update: Miraculous uptick in my demeanor. Getting through this last bout of hopelessness and overwhelm has been huge for me. I’m lucky in that I built very good habits when I was younger in terms of “map and compass” stuff like Vulpine shared. As an aside, I think men should view being men like an athlete views a sport – always work on fundamentals. If something is wrong in… Read more »
Badpainter
June 7th, 2015 at 12:20 am
In summary…don’t leave the plantation.
@Ace:
Cotton don’t pick itself and mama needs a new Sunday go to Meetin’ dress.
@ Ace Exactly correct. However, the element that turns my stomach is the subtext of pleading involved in Insanity’s manipulation. Her whole men are scary bit is very much about men who have left the plantation. Men who no longer stand in trace to pull the FI’s load. So along comes Will, who is on the edge, and confused, and the men here give him advice on how to proceed. But that advice is to abandon the FI and focus on what really works for Will no matter how much it discomfits Insanity and the rest of the herd. Will’s… Read more »
Maybe the Insane One should offer Will a free go of her no doubt extraordinary and irresistible “charms”?
Should tilt the balance. Showing him what he’s missing out on by not truckling to the F.I.’s definition of women.
Because they’ve got so much more to offer a young man than crude sex. Haven’t they? Well, haven’t they?
After rereading that post it seems appropriate for Roosh at this time too
lol at the drama holy shit @Will Ya when Julien and Tyler do those speeches they’re just riffing off the top of their heads so the examples they spit out usually aren’t amazing cause they’re trying to think “what will a room full of spergs be able to understand” Like Julien in-field will call girls “dog” because it’s self-amusing to him (most Naturals humor is self-amusement, they try to make THEMSELVES laugh instead of trying to make other people laugh) and he makes it work and they love him for it. But then he’s like “so you could say like… Read more »
Woah…after catching up on these last 2-3 posts “EPIC” is the only word that comes to mind. Malicious attention-whoring troll behavior is shitty because some people actually read blogs for helpful advice and intellectual discussions, whereas those trolls are pretty much disingenuous frauds. And at some point you have to wonder, who in their right mind would troll a blog? In fact, I recall some major trolling elsewhere by duo who would take turns commenting from different locations using the same user name, all in the name of documenting their mental state?? Maybe some people just get excited and high… Read more »
@Ya, wow, am floored by the thorough analysis. Interesting stuff on confidence. I’ve seen general ideas similar to this apply in the business world, and public speaking. @Scribblerg, interesting point on being where you are vs relocating as the solution to problems. Sometimes relocating can be the solution, but often not. Some of that stuff takes introspection, recovery, and rebuilding for which there’s no on-size-fits-all solution. I’ve seen people uproot and relocate to fix problems, only to experience the same challenges at the new location. (Oh, and the second article was tweeted by Sam B., not something I found on… Read more »
@Will I saw parts of your story and I was concerned about your crisis so I shared it w some friends at dinner. One physician said that your story is not of someone who was admitted to medical school; too much inconsistency and contradiction. Then I joked that you might be MYG still posing as a man lol. Kidding aside, a yr or so back I read a tear-jerker on another blog about a recent college grad who is exactly your age that kept bragging enrolling in medical school to attention-whore the blogger she was obsessed with. Bragged about ivy… Read more »
@Sun Wukong, Ang Angmar “Was thinking about that tonight when I was jogging. Quite honestly it seems to me that every time a woman gives a man all the shit BP Beta advice, she’s telling him to be the man she wishes she could be aroused by. She’s telling herself “I wish I could get the tingles for this kind of guy, so that’s the kind of guy I’ll tell him he should be.” To some degree I suspect it truly is about keeping the world stocked with enough BB to cover demand, but the majority is about her wish… Read more »
Oh, and Adam’s curse is basically the burden of performance, I just realize.
YaReally – Best advice ever for guys about physically picking up the girl or getting her away from an AMOG in the area watching her. From a girl point of view (validating your point)… we love (and kinda hate) being picked up. It’s so surprising and terrifying and sexy all at the same time. It makes us cling tight, wrap our legs around tight, and it’s the best teasing you can do to a woman once you have her trusting you. My husband has always done that just randomly and I love/hate it… even during sex which is just insane.… Read more »
@Dragonfly
Insane? I call it “standard operating procedure”. If a man wants to be dominant in the bedroom, there’s no better start than lifting her and placing her where you want to fuck her. I can’t think of a woman I haven’t done this to, even in my bluest of Blue Pill days.
@Forge the sky Adam = Burden of performance That’s such a good way to explain the red pill and religion in a social context. Mike Figgis wrote about that in this film. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4SYjfPvh4 The End Scene is having to not just be aware but entirely exposed to both. The burden and the curse of disposability. Want out and cold approach this women at a cafe yesterday. I got her number and showed her around DC. I really am getting better at being human and flawed and more and more willing to get rejected. It’s a relief because I have never… Read more »
@rugby
When’s your next group audio chat? Going to help some buddy’s out now.
The next Man Table date is TBD. I’m currently focused on tasks for getting ready to move two weeks from now (today I’ve got a friend knowledgeable in carpentry teaching me how to fix small bits of damage incurred during my time here), so after that I’ll be looking to be more regular with the show and flesh out the web site for it.
Rest assured there will be more. Oh yes, there will be.
http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/6556-yes.gif
@GWADT – Yowsa. That sounds just about right, yup. I”m adopting a new live and let live policy here, so no longer will I hector women for being here. In fact, talking more about sex would be great… Fyi, this is Glenn. I clearly cannot do a thing about who comes here so I might as well just chill – being adaptive and all that shit. I had a productive, interesting, dreamy day. Really. Can’t wait to be up at dawn tomorrow to get after it again. @Sun – I liked the show and don’t have much criticism. Maybe some… Read more »
Will, I think IB has her heart in the right place and believes what she’s saying, and may even been somewhat right… but in the end she’s not a man, and can’t give you advice unless she can step out of her own shoes – which I see no evidence of. Just shallow and ultimately useless sympathy. Only YaReally has been correct here: try something, and after you have done so, decide for yourself. You either have actual, actionable advice, or fake advice: “oh, no don’t do that” which leaves out specifically what TO do. Actionable advice. Decide which fits,… Read more »
I’m gonna bounce off of OTC here. I have been consistently surprised at what I actually liked and didn’t like. Empirical experience has consistently shown my (both conditioned and anticipated) expectations about how I should conduct my life, and how I should conduct my relationships, to be wrong. This is why we have so many men lamenting the course of their lives. This is why we have so many people unhappy in their relationships. When I was in high school, I thought I was attracted to tomboys. Nope, they were just less different (and therefore less threatening) to me; I… Read more »
@OTC Everything you said is spot on. Getting better at just doing and less talking. @Forge the sky “unless you’ve also destroyed your ego investments and emotional supressions. I had to have a whole bunch of sex before I even realize I was suppressing an urge to just fucking pin a girl down and nail her.” I had this happen last evening and it was a huge wake up call. Alpha is a mindset moving on moving forward… One thing I learned today about myself is that I am getting in my own way of Pinning down a girl and… Read more »
I had to have a whole bunch of sex before I even realize I was suppressing an urge to just fucking pin a girl down and nail her. Instead of gently ‘making love.’ The suppressions can run deep.
What surprised me even more was how much they wanted me to do it. Hell the first time I choked a girl and she thanked me because other guys were too pussy to do it, my mind was blown. So many preconceptions just blasted away.
Since discovering the Red Pill I have often wondered why females go ape shit about discussing it’s implications. Once I thought it was because they wanted Betas for later Plan Bs. But now I really think that it’s a knee jerk reaction to the implication that Women are irrational in mate selection. Sure any woman can see girls they know hooking up with Bad Boys and Sociopaths. But they want _everyone_ to know those girls DON’T represent most women (ultimate NAWALT). I really am starting to see that women don’t like the implication of Red Pill BECAUSE it ultimately implies… Read more »
I can’t fucking stand it. Will she’s saying please be a pussy and bow to the feminine imperative. I, SJF, am living loving and thriving and absolutely nothing that you have been advised by men advocating for men has been contrary to you having a LTR and living loving and thriving. This is a blog that is dedicated to men living loving and thriving. You don’t think that that is the motto of the author of this blog? Sorry the bitch broke my indifference. I care for the men inquiring here. I hear you. At one time I kind of… Read more »
@Rugby Right on, man! Always keep exploring. @Sun Wukong Fuck man, it’s a trip. I’ve only been with two girls, really, and one of them was really suppressed. And with her, it was always a dramatic issue if i did anything not ‘approved of’ – or anything she didn’t pre-approve, really. So guess what happened when one time I got really turned on and just took her clothes off of her – and covered over her objections with passionate shit like “i want to see all of you.” Holy. Shit. To a man, it can really seem like a girl… Read more »
@Forge the Sky June 8th, 2015 at 3:47 am Interesting, your anecdotes takes you back to Rollo’s fundamentals and the Iron Rules of Tomassi. If you accede to her unspoken “hold my bag” (coffee, box) then you are abdicating frame. And frame is everything, but it is not power. All the sudden you are paddling upstream after you fumbled the coffee holding. Of course this is not literal, but figurative. Its OK to be nice and hold things for a woman, but she is just obviously keeping good frame cause she can here. You told her she has frame. All… Read more »
sjfrellc,
You might want to take a look at this:
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-partner-divorce-risk.html
The “science” for that CH article came from Anthony Paik, an Associate Professor of Sociology and Gender, Women’s and Sexuality Studies and Director of the Social Science Research Program at the Public Policy Center, lol. ppc.uiowa[]edu/people/anthony-paik
Scribblerg,
The “smile trick” is the toughest one to master. It seems you are “all over it” with regards to what you needed to troubleshoot.
I see you re-creating, and good on you, man.
It’s like the “switch flip” end scene in Fight Club: “The gun’s not in YOUR hand, it’s in MINE.”
Gentlemen, I think we just witnessed Glenn opening his eyes and saying: “I know Kung-Fu.”
Bon Voyage, scribblerg!
@ Eon
I give up. What’s my interest in that link? Has to be one of the most narrow focused sociology studies early on when Anthony Paik needed to pad his resume.
Great comments all, and a lot of diverse issue to mull over as I get into my 2nd cup of coffee this mronign… @Ang Aamer Could NOT have said that as clear as you did. The term “gaslighting” will probably not make sense to anyone under 40-45, but it needs to be grasped to understand what’s really going on here. With his brief analysis, Ang has revealed how a sexual strategy works, in this case Insanity’s wooing and cooing of Will to stay the course and be the “good guy” and ignore the advice of other, older men who have… Read more »
“If you accede to her unspoken “hold my bag” (coffee, box)” I don’t think I could resist the temptation to swig the coffee with a big grin (and say thanks of course, I do have Standards). Or let her catch me rummaging through the bag as she sashayed back to her territorially spray-marked man. Women do keep the most [ahem] inappropriate crap in them. Worth showing to the World, piece by piece. I have just walked off to the heads myself, leaving coats and her Bag as she’d gone to the powder-room for an eternity. I realized I was being… Read more »
@Forge the Sky Your situation is like you know what needs to be done but you are just not in the right frame of mind to do it. As basic thumb rule, Whenever a girl asks you to do something ask yourself, “Would she ever tell Clooney/Pitt/Hemsworth to do that.?”. If not then don’t do it. You are have onenitis not logically(maybe) but emotionally. I donot know your age, but remember that Your SMV and MMV can increase anytime before 60. Women after 23 have nowhere but down to go.(minor caveats apply) You need to practise DHVing and consider yourself… Read more »
@Forge the sky Well Here it goes Back in 2011 in my blue pill day I got approached by a HB10 in a yoga studio whos name escapes me now. She was going to the bathroom and drew me in and again blue pill days. I didn’t catch on. I didn’t realized she wanted to play. I grew up in a very religious environment the school I was going to was in southern Utah. I was trying to get away from all the bombardment and emotional toxicity of my family yet they kept asking me to remain a Bluepill of… Read more »
One last thing, regarding the original subject matter of this article, Having met and dated an Alpha Widow (before understanding the term and discovering TRM ), I can say with absolute certainly that it’s like her first Alpha gave her an invisible prison tattoo, forever marking her as his property. And for all her talk about feminism, women’s energy, equal relationships and vulnerability (straight from the pages of Oprah magazine), she would drop that stuff in the mud in a split-second for the man that could effortlessly master her with a look. Her 2nd husband didn’t have it, I didn’t… Read more »
I’m in Forge the Sky’s corner (SunWugongshow buddy). I only comment to point out a connect the dots Rational Male way. Basic stuff. Forge is 27 and in a culture and mindset for future LTR. That is why going into a LTR the man has to have already be in charge of the reigns of Frame. And with the stark realization that Frame is not power, its a mindset. I’m not unopposed to LTR and marriage rather than a CH rogue life. My noting these features is because my knowledge of Forge’s mindset and his self admitted one-itis. If she… Read more »
@MilePhil “Women will only ever respect a man that they can’t break, that will not concede.” That’s so potent to witness. @sjfllc Women posturing their husbands in church has always made me wonder who really is running the church? Out in Utah its something to think about when the first thing a women does is mention WHO she is married to. I once almost got a date with a girl who was a daughter of a family who runs one of the largest hotels in the world. She later had a 7 million dollar wedding which is pocket change to… Read more »
@Vulpine – Yeah baby, very yeah. The Glenn is Dead – LONG LIVE SCRIBBLERG!!!
“Women posturing their husbands in church has always made me wonder who really is running the church? … But in church stasis and posturing can be ruthlessly done by females more than males. Females can do some pretty scary stuff Lady Macbeth comes to mind.” Actually Sandman had added more to this. He had mentioned how his mother dragged his father and him to Sunday church in their best clothes and appearances. She wouldn’t care what they looked like the rest of the week. Women compete each other in church to show off their “accessories”. To show how their’s is… Read more »
@Shiva H.P.
“Family fashion parades for Sunday church is among the most vulgar displays of female narcism since renaissance.”
Amplify that two 2 hrs each morning for semenary.
Plus church activities on wensday social church dances an Saturday than back to church from 8am to 1pm Sunday and you get a pretty good ideal of 8yrs of my existence. From puberty to “adulthood”
It was bluepill pushed down your throat my convictions are stronger than yours 24/7
It was stressing to say the least.
rugby11ljh – “…the first thing a women does is mention WHO she is married to…”
Announces proxy identity so all players know will recognize the avatar in use.
“Females can do some pretty scary stuff Lady Macbeth comes to mind.”
Shakespear is filled with Redpill nuggets. Consider the character of Olphelia in Hamlet. Bitch is whack right? However, she’s the only character not involved in some sort of murderous intrigue. Which I read as unicorns are so rare as to be abnormal, and dysfunctional, and men are often too foolish to recognize them when they actually exist.
@Badpainter “Announces proxy identity so all players know will recognize the avatar in use.” Could you please expend on that? I find that for me I know it when I see it. But it’s hard me to put myself willingly in situations such as those again. Would you presume women admit who their husbands are as a sign of negating or creating competition anxiety among thenselfs? I am so use to hearing emotional debasement from women behind closed doors that none of it comes without serious bias. All What I think I know is women are able to sabatoge each… Read more »
@Rugby
Your story gave me a hard on.
How all was she?
Where does she lives!
Did you watch movie Idol 1966?
What about the Graduate?
There is nothing rewarding in the world than fucking a WILLING married woman.
Go for it .
from now on teach the beta provider a lesson,,he knew from day one there was something wrong with the equation. (so did she)
Advice to those interested in a LTR. Get your “n” up before you commit. The experience can be very handy. And if nothing else it strengthens your frame.
rugby11ljh – “Could you please expend on that? I find that for me I know it when I see it. But it’s hard me to put myself willingly in situations such as those again.” You’re in those situations everyday, church is just more obvious than most. Let’s look at a hypothetical couple, Bob and Sheila Henderson. Everything you need to know about Bob is summed up in his haircut, handshake, and job title. Bob’s a shop foreman at Whitfield Tool and Die. You can picture him immediately. He’s about 40, middle class, married, 3 kids, blue collar. When you get… Read more »
There is the reality of extroversion and introversion. The ‘good girl’ is frequently an introvert, with the prospects of being a party girl being too painful. That does not however change the alpha beta dynamic, although in this regard the non party girl will draw out the alpha in a beta male. This is because as an introvert there is never the need to get out in social circles. It is a very interesting dynamic and dance.
@M Simon
I disagree with your advice.
This is 2015, DO NOT ever commit.
In fact get your “n” as high as you can and IF you feel like committing, go for even higher “n”.
Committing to a useless endless burden of performance for her majesty ,why?
What are the returns in 2015 or in 2025?.
@ sjfrellc “I give up. What’s my interest in that link? Has to be one of the most narrow focused sociology studies early on when Anthony Paik needed to pad his resume.” You posted a link to a CH article that starts with: “We here at the Chateau have in the past written that it is just as easy — in fact, may even be easier — to fall in love and begin a healthy long term relationship with a woman after having sex with her on the first date as it is with a woman who has made you… Read more »
@M Simon ” Get your “n” up before you commit. The experience can be very handy. And if nothing else it strengthens your frame.” If I have in regrets it’s not doing this even as a bluepill self obsessed human. @Mr T “Glad to be you porn…” Not yet couldn’t find a copy online will look at my local library. Check out Luis Buñuel All of his films are red pill hardcore he doesn’t play around with the ruthless reality of social norms he’s films are brutal to view because he uses bluepill men as examples. He was alfred Hitchcock’s… Read more »
As boys and girls grow up entitled to their parents money ,keep spending the money irresponsibility without giving a shitt how hard the parents worked for it. The time comes when boys/girls leave home ,the young man start to work and begin to value the money being earned and he remembers the time when he didn’t value his parents’s money. It’s not the same with the girl, that entitlement continues (sexy hawt boys excluded)and she becomes a leach while working and keeping her earnings for herself and her new found beta/ doctrine : What is yours is OURS and what… Read more »
@Forge
She’s really pretty, and she has no idea how to use that.
She makes you hold her food box or her coffee, keeps you hanging on giving her attention, and you still hold views like that of her after it all.
Sounds to me like she knows exactly how to use it.
Thanks for all the responses guys. Yeah, this girl I had oneitis for (and still get pangs from time to time) is in my social circle. It made things pretty difficult for a while after the breakup, but seriously, it’s worked wonders on frame and game development. Sjfrellc pointed this out in a way. Yeah, it’s very difficult to re-set a lost frame, and it’s difficult to game a girl who is putting you in a ‘past relationship, just friends now’ beta box. So when I see her, it’s just really easy to fall back on the old beta frame… Read more »
@Sun Wukong
Yep, in that sense she does, haha. I mostly mean, she has no idea how to capitalize on a BB hubby like she says she wants. She chooses really poorly, makes a dramatic mess of relationships before it’s locked down, basically betaizes the guy too quickly then drives him off.
It’s bad girl game.
But christ can she betaize. I’m exhibit A, really, and she can still get it out of me, fairly often, even though I don’t brook that shit with other girls anymore. I think it’s cause she plays the waif so well.
Not like that’s why I was doing it but I recognize when my game is decent and it was then so I’m just kinda, what sort of standards does she have? Doesn’t matter. Cut her off completely when you’re not around her, maintain 100% aloofness when you are. Don’t let her use you as an attention plate, or as Patrice called it “Her Time Ho“. You can’t give attention to get sex. But you need to require her to give you sex (or at least appreciable, genuine progress towards it) to get further attention. It probably won’t happen, but that’s… Read more »
@Forge Ahhh, now we’re getting to the crux of things here: She chooses really poorly She’s choosing (her perception of) AF over BB right? makes a dramatic mess of relationships before it’s locked down, basically betaizes the guy too quickly then drives him off. Sounds also like you pedestalized her before and still hold on to the bit of that, but she’s a gigantic mess inside despite her outward angelic appearance. Personality incongruent with appearance. But what she’s actually doing I’d bet from what you’re saying is shit testing guys mercilessly. She’s totally aware of her attractiveness on at least… Read more »
Of course I say all that assuming you have no way to avoid running in to her socially on occasion. If you can deprive her completely of your presence, that’s even better for you in every way.
rugby11ljh – “Maybe that’s why women are better adapters to environments than men?”
Yes, but it’s the social environments that matter here. What you need to keep in mind is the woman you are seeing at church is not the same one you saw at the club on Saturday night. Same physical body, not the same identity. Different avatars. This is why they are so loathe to be embarrassed or acknowledge certain people in one social situation who they are friendly with in another.
“It made things pretty difficult for a while after the breakup, but seriously, it’s worked wonders on frame and game development.” I’m just in the early phase of book “Antifragilile: things that benefit from disorder by Nasiim Taleb. Facinating. You can be fragile and be a pussy and become a MGTOW or incel. You can be resilient, but let it eat away with the same ego invesment. But just like hate is not the opposite of love (indifference is), the opposite of fragile is anti-fragile where you take that difficult and double down on red pill awareness and game. You… Read more »
@Sun I have no way to avoid running into her on a nearly-daily basis. We work in the same building. Different times now thankfully, but there’s still a half-hour overlap. Don’t shit where you sleep gents. “You can’t give attention to get sex. But you need to require her to give you sex (or at least appreciable, genuine progress towards it) to get further attention. It probably won’t happen, but that’s just part of the game.” Ya I’m right their maybe 93% of the time, but sometimes the old neediness pops up like a whack-a-mole. Perhaps I need a larger… Read more »
Glenn: Many of us have been there. I had similar aspects to my post-divorce life. In the early 2000s I was highly active in the Father’s Rights movement and online community. DadsDivorce.com was a great site, but full of “do whatever it takes if you care about your kid” stuff (semi-blue pill/old books). I did that for a while, but fortunately woke up and realized I was still getting gamed. While there were some “shock collar” red pill types within the divorced father community, most were White Knights that would have betrayed every angry word they ever wrote, and ever… Read more »
Thanks SJF. Good perspective for me to hear. Ya, I increasingly see how important frame is – both for STR’s and LTR’s. Rollo has always been very emphatic about this, I begin to see why.
I like the idea about being anti fragile instead of just resilient. Even an oak tree can be cut down, but you can’t cut down the wind.
@Forge I’m having difficulty reconciling all you’ve just written with the man I heard talking on Sun’s Man Table last week. You should eject any romantic notions you have of this girl, but not before you walk away with the prize of a lurid, pump and dump ONS with her. Check out everything you can from YaReally and PUA in general. Bed her best friend and get addicted to your cock if need be. Just be within the bounds of integrity and honesty and leave both of them better than you found them. Which means something very different than the… Read more »
Haha. type correction: “Get her addicted…”
My brothers, Game works. Here’s a quick story from today. Just so ya know I’m not spending all my time mooning lol. A shout-out to @YaReally here; thanks for linking those videos of Julien talking about ‘frying a girl’s circuits’ and creating emotional spikes. I tried that shit today on a cute girl at work (there are lots, so sue me. Don’t worry I’m not going after her, one time was all it took for that lesson). I tend to have a platonic vibe with her, with a slight slant towards a little sister dynamic. She has a chronic health… Read more »
” I did that for a while, but fortunately woke up and realized I was still getting gamed. ”
Nobody gets gamed harder than a divorced man with children. There is only one way to at least partially avoid it – agree to nothing, harden your heart as best you can and abandon your children.
“Don’t GET MARRIED ! Don’t HAVE KIDS!”
This way is a lot easier on everyone, especially the men.
@Forge the sky “I’m no-one’s plan B.” Best comment you have ever made that I got to read. “Rollo said once that good relationships are effortless. I suppose I see what he means.” Still working on this part… Played with a golden retriever today in front of a barber shop… Made me think of my friends dog Jackson… I’ve only ever had that with dogs. It’s my background that makes all the emotional garbage play horrid part in the story of mutual compatible complementary relationships. “Don’t shit where you sleep gents.” I have and the consequence is banishment. “or my… Read more »
@The Diplomat I’m having difficulty reconciling all you’ve just written with the man I heard talking on Sun’s Man Table last week. You should eject any romantic notions you have of this girl, but not before you walk away with the prize of a lurid, pump and dump ONS with her. Check out everything you can from YaReally and PUA in general. Bed her best friend and get her addicted to your cock if need be. Just be within the bounds of integrity and honesty and leave both of them better than you found them. Which means something very different… Read more »
@Forge
Sounds like you’re already well on the road to leaving them better than you found them. From what you’ve explained, they’re both direly in need of your RP ‘ministry.’ 😉
And backsliding into BP…that’s what we’re all here to help each other circumvent and/or ameliorate. Wait until it’s my turn…and I would lay 80% odds that at some point it will be.
P.S. Forge:
I would strongly count on the fact that both of these “nice” girls have been that hypergamous chick in Rollo’s proverbial Spring Break foam cannon at some point already. Just go do your thing with them for you and you alone–with no other reasons than that.
@Forge
she has no idea how to capitalize on a BB hubby like she says she wants.
Almost forgot to mention: did you notice what was probably the source of your backslide here? You listened to what she said instead of paying attention to her actions.
AF/BB is insidious like that. What she says is right there in the moment in your face, but what she does is hidden, taking place over a long period of time or out of your sight.
@scribblerg/Glenn
(Very off topic) Saw a something neat the old strummers like you might enjoy playing with:
Oh I’m under no illusions Diplomat. I think it’s cool if my tender ministrations can help a girl out, but I don’t need them to. Takes two to tango.
And yeah, re: foam cannon party, with my old one-itis it’s a virtual certainty. With the religious chick I’m actually unsure. Goes to no parties, lives with big traditional family, etc. She may have actually not had the opportunity before.
But I wouldn’t be surprised to find I’m wrong.
@Sun I’ll have to look back and consider. My first thought is, I’ve kinda learned well to not listen too much to what a girl says. Where I still fall might be another, more subtle thing – I still listen to what a girl feels. So like, I listen to a girl and if she’s expressing an emotion I (mostly) ignore her words and pay attention to what she’s feeling. And I think I’m using that as a gauge of her ‘real feelings’ about things. But they’re not; a woman’s emotions, however strongly felt, are transient and have little bearing… Read more »
@Forge the Sky: “She may have actually not had the opportunity before.”
Are there any males in that big family? In her extended family? Have you read The Scarlet Letter or Elmer Gantry?
“And heck, women dig a guy like that anyways.”
Ya know what kind of guy they like even more? A guy who can listen to her feelings and then guide them where he wants them to go.
@Forge the sky
“not in that you pretend that they aren’t there, but in that they don’t at all shake your thoughts or purposes.”
That is the Rational male
Goodnight Forge
Male idealistic female opportunistic
@kfg
“A guy who can listen to her feelings and then guide them where he wants them to go.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccmava-4KnY
Goodnight kfg
Sun Wukong 3:53:
In Papua Niugini Highlands, all the locals look like that, including (more often than not) when they’re friendly.
@Sun – That midi controller is cool. I’m hugely into electronic music and have been wanting to incorporate a guitar synth that goes beyond my modeler. But I also love acoustic, and also, if I was going to go electronic, I should probably just move to keyboard. But I hate playing keyboards (and suck at it). This looks like such a great way to go. Will look into it for sure, thanks.
@Forge – Stop feeling bad about dominating the forum. You are sharing infield, real life shit that you are dealing with. It’s relevant, interesting and I’m learning from it. I think one of the main reasons TRM is crushing it is because we have actual substantive dialog in this comments section. As a content marketing guy, I have to give you some data. The most popular pieces of content on the web are about 2000 words and some of the most popular are as much as 4000. People think shorter is better, but that’s just not true. Engagement is better… Read more »
@All – I do have a question. So if a woman who fucks more than one guy is 50% prone to divorce, what are we to do? I mean, I’ve adapted to the new reality and the only thing that makes sense to get what I want is to intercept young hotties who are on the cock carousel. I’m out to be the “aging rock star” ride on that carousel, in fact. And since the threshold is so low, it makes me wonder if monogamy is really the problem for all of us? I haven’t seen data on number of… Read more »
No insight from me here, but damn that’s some good writing by Rollo. Great article.
“The virgins and other inexperienced women I’ve been with were all awful lays and also become clingers and emotional. You guys can have all of them, I’ll take the sluts…” I’ve made a lot of those sluts, unfortunately. All those “awful lays”? After I teach them how to have a proper orgasm, and properly suck a cock and whatnot, they start getting ’empowered’ about it (entitled and bitchy), and, out the door they go. “If I can do this with HIM, I can do this with something better. Huumphh!” Notice, again, “something better”, not “someone better”. It’s easy for me… Read more »
Hey, is that THE westcoaster, of “Small Town Sarging” fame?
My bad, WestCoaster, that wasn’t your thread at all. I just remembered your similar situation and involvement. “Hey, dude.” all the same.
Insanity – “Please use your head and walk away from this crap.There are better places to learn what you need to know.” Then you justify your participation here with… “Because I actually care about men, Will. These men do not. Much like alcoholics, they seek men who will join them in their misery. Misery loves company. The last thing they want is to see you healthy, happy, and thriving. Don’t be deceived, I’ve been watching them for along time.” I’m confused… Do you care about us or are you condemning us? Either way, you have appointed yourself to a position… Read more »
FWIW Insanity is spends most of her time pandering to Roosh Inc. on his comment threads hoping that someone there will pay attention to her.
I’m beginning to think you guys are right; she’s got a special ‘need’ to mingle with the men in the manosphere. All she does is parrot the same simplistic dismissives Roosh does about TRP and then waits for her rush.
the trend is towards less ownership, like having a music subscription instead of buying. Getting a plate subscription makes more sense then buying one woman for the rest of your life.
If you are not a troll write as much as you would like here. If you disagree with Rollo you need to provide an extensive rebuttal to be taken seriously. Cherry picking a few images and links doesn’t cut it here, or saying “it’s not true”. I don’t write lots here because I don’t disagree with him, but who knows, he can’t keep batting 100%, can he?
@scribblerg June 9th, 2015 at 8:50 am How bout we don’t pick the outcome of our adventures and as young men develop ourselves into our best selves and then go out there and engage the best we can? Have a good mentor, preferably a good father, learn how to be good at being a good man. Have strength, courage, mastery and honor. become red pill aware and have game mastered. Mother nature never gave a shit about you as an individual. You are expendable to the species and species can go extinct ( species are expendable to mother nature). Mother… Read more »
Sorry if I come off as too general or flippant in my last comment. It’s just that we need to be masculine men and not be pussies. Go into battle that is life and do the best we can. We will get injured in these battles, but still need to engage and adapt. And to the best of our abilities each one of us has to “Not F*ck Up” along the way.
I presume Insanitybytes22 didn’t think her current avatar name was solipsistic enough for the RooshV comments section so she changed it to something more fitting.
Based on insanities comments and responses, I think she is looking for what she is mostly receiving here. There is consistency in what she responds to and what she doesn’t respond to. She tends to responds to only those comments that mirror her comments. It is as if she is caught in and endless loop of her own design perpetuated by the responses she prefers to address. She dose not seem to consider the responses that once considered could break her out of her loop. She prefers apparently to chase her tail….possible hoping someone here will also “chase her tail”.… Read more »
@sjfrellc “Mother nature screws one individual man in one species? He better damn well learn to adapt. Because he is as expendable to the hierarchy.” Kfg said it the trick is not to mind that it hurts. The best ways to adapt are to reject conventions that really do not work in nature. “What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.” – Crowfoot, Blackfoot warrior and orator @Vulpine We… Read more »
“You are expendable to the species and species can go extinct . . .”
Bearing in mind the oft overlooked fact that species often go extinct through success. The great . . . great grandchildren of extinct proto-lemurs are today’s lemurs – as well as the readers and writers of the manosphere.
Extinction through success is what evolution means.
Mother nature doesn’t care if a species goes extinct, other more fit species take over and make her stronger and more successful (more antifragile). A species doesn’t care if a species member (say a masculine male of the human species) dies in a fight. As long as he passed his genes along in a bid for diversity, if he dies the species is potentially more successful (antifragile). Point is, complex systems (evolution, mother nature, species, organisms) don’t care about you. So make the best out of your individual situation. The Feminine Imperative doesn’t care if you are effective in your… Read more »
I’m really, really reaching here as biology, organizational behavior and evo-psych are not my field at all (hell, I’m a painter), but based on sjfrellc’s comment above, I’d like to build on it. If the FI is simply another complex system devoted to ensuring the best genes are selected for species survival, then your long term, personal development goals matter not a whit to its overall aims. So if you are just genetic cannon fodder in the end (and I definitely have that Saving Private Ryan clip in the front of my mind),then isn’t it your highest moral imperative to… Read more »
@MikePhil, I’d agree with most of that, but I think it’s important not to think you can excuse yourself entirely from the ‘lottery’.
It’s far better to play the Game well when you know what your own cards are as well as a realistic understanding of what your opponent(s) are holding themselves.