The Love Experience

experience

Glenn and a few others had a question about last week’s Love Commodity post.:

@Rollo – This seems very inconsistent to me. How can this be true – ” Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. ” While this is true? “In an era of unapologetic feminine primacy and unignorable open Hypergamy, this commodification undeniably rests with the feminine.”

You’ll have to forgive a long explanation, I couldn’t simply drop this into the commentary, a full post was necessary.

The first thing we need to consider is the Male Experience vs. the female experience. I hate to get too existential, but it comes down to our individuated experiences as men and women. I’m going to give two examples here and this will also cover the Hypergamy is everything thread I noticed the commentary too.

There’s an interesting conflict of societal messaging we get from an equalitarian / feminine-primary social order. This is one that simultaneously tells us that “we are not so different” or “we are more alike than we are different” and then, yet implores use to “celebrate our diversity” and “embrace (or tolerate) our differences” as people.

This is easily observable in issues of ethnicity, but it also crosses over into issues of gender. The most popular trope is that ideas of gender are a social construct and that women and men are comparative equals and only their physical plumbing makes them different in form only.

From a Red Pill perspective we see the error in evidence of this egalitarian fantasy. I’ve written countless posts on the evidential and logical fallacies that make up gender equalism, but the important thing to be aware of is the conflict inherent within that belief – equalism expects men and women’s existential experiences to be the same, while also pleading that we embrace the differences it purports we don’t actually have.

It fundamentally denies the separation, from an evolved biological / psychological perspective, that men and women experience life in different ways. The idea is that it’s the nebulous ‘society’ that determines our gender experiences and less, if nothing, of it is truly influenced by a human being’s psychological-biological firmware.

zdr01dz posted this:

I think maybe this is in part because men have no innate desire to marry up. Hypergamy doesn’t compute for us. I know what hunger feels like and I assume women feel it the same way I do. I’m empathetic to poor, hungry children because I know what they’re feeling. However I have no idea what hypergamy feels like. I’ve never felt it’s pull.

My second example comes from Women and Sex in which I explore the fallacy of the social convention that insists “women are just as sexual as men” and that “women want sex, enjoy sex, even more than men.”

This canard is both observably and biologically disprovable, but the presumption is based on the same “we’re all the same, but celebrate the difference” conflicting principle that I mentioned above. If a dynamic is complimentary to the feminine then the biological basis is one we’re expected to ’embrace the diversity’ of, but if the dynamic is unflattering to the feminine it’s the result “of a society that’s fixated on teaching gender roles to ensure the Patriarchy, we’re really more alike than not.”

The idea is patently false because there is no real way any woman can experience the existence and conditions that a man does throughout his life. I mention in that essay about how a female amateur body builder I knew who was dumbstruck by how horny she became after her first cycle of anabolic steroids. “I can’t believe men can live in a state like this” were her exact words. She was just beginning to get a taste of what men experience and control in their own skins 24 hours a day and it was unsettling for her.

Women are used to a cyclic experience of sexuality, whereas men must be ready to perform at the first, best opportunity sexually. These are our individuated experiences and despite all the bleating of the equalists they are qualitatively different. As zdr01dz observes, no man has an idea of what Hypergamy feels like. To my knowledge there is no drug or hormone that can simulate the existential experience of Hypergamy. Even if there were, men and women’s minds are fundamentally wired differently, so the simulated experience could never be replicated for a man.

I understand how Hypergamy works from observing the behavior and understanding the motivating biology for it. I also understand that our species evolved with, and benefitted from it – or at least it makes deductive sense that what we know as Hypergamy today is a derivative of that evolution – but what I don’t have is a firsthand, existential experience of Hypergamy and I never will. Likewise, women will never have a similar existential experience of what it’s like to be a man.

So it should be an easy follow to deduce that how a woman experiences love, as based on her Hypergamic opportunistic impulses, is a fundamentally different experience than that of a man’s. The equalist social order want’s love to be an equal, mutual, agreement on a definition of love that transcends individuated gender experience, but it simply will not accept that an intersexual experience of love is defined by each sex’s individuated experience.

I have no doubt that there are areas of crossover in both men’s idealistic concept of love and women’s opportunistic concept, but this experience of love is still defined by gender-specific individuation. By that I mean that women can and do experience intense feelings of love for a man based on her Hypergamously influenced criteria for love.

I’m actually surprised that more women have yet to call me to the carpet about their personal experiences of love from the commodity post, but if you sift through the comments on Women in Love and other blog/forum comments you’ll come across examples of women describing in great detail how deeply they love their husbands / boyfriends, and are in complete disarray over being told their love stems from Hypergamic opportunism. Again, I have no doubt that their feelings of love are genuine to them based on their individuated concepts of love; indeed they’re ready to fight you tooth and nail to defend their investment in those feelings. What I’m saying is that the criteria a man should need to meet in order to generate those emotions and arrive at a love state are not universally mutual as an equalitarian social order would have the whole of society believe.

So, yes, men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely – from their own individuated experiences. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. The processes they used to come to this love state differs in concept and existential individuation, and what sustains that love state is still dependent upon the criteria of men’s idealistic and women opportunistic concepts of love.

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

The commodification of that love state is presently weighted on the feminine because the Feminine Imperative is socially ascendant. The importance of satisfying the female sexual (and really life-goal) strategy takes primary social precedence today. Thus men’s individuated experience is devalued to an assumption of an “it’s-all-equal” universality while women’s is blown up out of all real valuation with collective expectations of “embracing their unique difference” set apart from that universality. If men’s experience is one-size-fits-all it’s really a small, and socially blameless, step for a woman to withhold the reward criteria men place on their idealistic love in order to satisfy their own sexual strategy.

Women’s social primacy allows them to feel good about themselves for commodifying the idealistic rewards men value to come to their own state of love, as well as maintain it.

It is one further step to embrace the concept that men’s experience of love, the idealism he applies to it and even his own sexual and life imperatives are in fact the same as those of women’s – while still setting women’s apart when it serves them better. Thus the cardinal rule of sexual strategies comes to a feminine-primary consolidation by socially convincing men that women’s experience and imperatives are, or should be considered to be, the same as men’s individuated experiences. Add women’s already innate solipsism to this and you have a formula for a gender-universal presumption of the experience of love based primarily on the individuated female experience of love.

In other words, women expect men to socially and psychologically agree with, reinforce and cooperate with the opportunistic feminine model of love as the equalist, gender-mutual model model of love while still believing that women share their own idealistic model. It’s the correct model that should work for everyone, or so women’s solipsism would have us believe.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sun Wukong
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@bp Drawing from my experience as a rider: it can be whatever you want, so long as it doesn’t look like an old man should ride it. For instance, I drive one of these: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2011models/2011-Triumph-SprintSTb.jpg It has bags that make it look like an old man bike (and make it useful; I’ve taken a month and a half camping with mine), but when you pop those off it just looks like a sport bike. Chicks can’t tell the difference. Not all chicks get hot about bikes though. The confidence once you know how to ride is probably what sells it… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Meh, link broke. This should work.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/triu/triumph_sprint_st%2011.htm

jf12
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from Rollo’s twitter links
“physical attractiveness is a better predictor of women’s than men’s market value”
Wincenciak, J., Fincher, C.L., Fisher, C.I., Hahn, A.C., Jones, B.C. & DeBruine, L.M., Mate choice, mate preference, and biological markets: The relationship between partner choice and health preference is modulated by women’s own attractiveness, Evolution and Human Behavior (2014), doi:10.1016/j.evolhumbehav.2014.12.004

Period.

theasdgamer
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@ jf12

The re-buttal (I don’t remember the first buttal, must have been drunk) will be…wait for it…feelz.

jf12
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Men’s idealistic love involves fetishes when pathological. Women’s opportunistic love involves tokens, instead.

A teen girl ran off with my good hunting jacket, the one that doesn’t get so used, Monday night, after she stole it from another teen girl. I didn’t get it back until last night. My wife was wearing it this morning.

jf12
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Stealth motorcycle.
http://www.popsci.com/undefined/darpas-silenthawk-quiet-motorcycle-moves-ahead

But will it impress the chicks?

jf12
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Everyone who has ever done the experiment admits the pressure on men to be dominant is a lot lot lot harder than the pressure on women to be sexy.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/mar/18/gender.bookextracts

Jeremy
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@jf12 Re: Motorcycles… Your motorcycle link doesn’t work for me. Also, I ride a p.o.s. Yamaha V-Star 250. The rated maximum passenger weight for my bike is less than I weigh. Strangely, I still get girl bikers giving me IOIs occasionally as I get off my bike, even though my motorcycle is absolutely nothing to write home about, in fact, it should signal low-value by all rights. I’ve considered upgrading for a long time, and I would do it, but I’ve just had much bigger financial goals that keep getting in the way. Re: Experiential experiments… The burden of performance,… Read more »

jf12
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Ah, love.

Nicholas spent more than $3M in remodeling the family home in just the past few years. The children and Nicholas still list the marital home as their residence.

Meanwhile last month Cathy Sparks bought a nearby house in her name alone, moving out of the marital home, and she signed a postnup months ago waiving rights to alimony.
http://www.tmz.com/2015/01/07/nicholas-sparks-wife-new-house-divorce-home-photos/

jf12
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re: androgynous moshes

If you give them an inch
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelsie-brynn-jones/when-being-trans-is-not-t_b_6340728.html
pretty soon they’ll just want to cut it off again.

Can I be labeled “the worst one” here too? Please?

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Starting a betting pool here to guess when the revelation of Cathy’s affair will be made. I claim the date of January 16.

Secondarily, guess whom she had an affair with.
1. Another writer who happens to shorter, stupider, and poorer than Nicholas. And he smacks her around.
2. One of the pool boys.
3. Their marriage counselor.

Badpainter
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Re: Sparks pool

February 8

Local HS football team offensive line at homecoming with random flag girls from the band.

Novaseeker
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Secondarily, guess whom she had an affair with.

Her personal fitness trainer, early 30s, shredded, tight game, and regularly has sex with his mostly 40’s-ish, married moms who are bored sexually.

sfcton
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Having a mother, an ex wife and observational skills I have to say most women do not love their kids

Divorce stats, child support stats, women supporting feminism despite having sons etc etc point to women not loving their kids

sfcton
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BP most def doesn’t need to be a Harely but the bike needs to fit you and your style and I would stay away from the BMW/ dual sport bikes. They look akward

Sport bikes look fast, agile and athletic; cruisers look powerful and menacing….. Either works equally well depending on you and your hunting grounds. Urban chicks slightly favor sport bikes; the rest cruisers, but I have meet very few girls who have a strong preference

http://tonsplace.wordpress.com/2014/06/29/motorcycles-are-alpha/

I’m up to 4 bikes now; 3 Harley’s and a Yamaha. I have noticed no difference in IOI’s etc between them

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“I was married for 29 years to a man who got hurt before we got married and couldn’t work again. I stuck by his side, he made the decisions and I worked every day teaching kindergarten. All I asked was that when I got home for him to just smile at me and treat me well. Mostly he started in on something negative as soon as I walked through the door. He was passive aggressive to me and finally after 29 years my love for him took a nose dive and I couldn’t take it any more. Just wondering…. does… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Rollo,

Do you think it’s possible many beta men do not want to escape beta-ism mostly because they would loose their addiction to a fantasy? The fantasy I refer to is a generality and includes the concepts of soul mate, unconditional love, idealized sex, etc. Possibly for many men this fantasy is mostly what they know, mostly what they’ve experienced and it is much like a drug addiction. A dependency is established along with conditioned illusion.

Not Born This Morning
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@
jf12

January 6th, 2015 at 2:46 pm
Love makes a woman think her man is the best one.
Love makes a man think his woman is the only one.

That crap reads like a fortune cookie….you know they write that moronic shit while they’re smoking opium.

AlphaFemale
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1. Equalitarian and “female-primary” social orders are not synonymous nor interchangeable. I assume you know the definition of equalitarian, yet you are using the term interchangeably to mean a female dominant social order. First example of flawed reasoning in this article. 2. “The most popular trope is that ideas of gender are a social construct and that women and men are comparative equals and only their physical plumbing makes them different in form only.” There is evidence that exactly this is true. Examine how being transgender impacts someone’s gender. You believe in a heteronormative gender binary which clouds your judgment… Read more »

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The beta addiction to fantasy seems like a ligit point to me. They eat that shit up, video games, scfi, fiction books etc.etc. The amount of time they invest in various methods of escapism is beyond my ability to comprehend so I reckon it makes sense that remaining blue pill is part of their escapism

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@”Alphafemale” 1. Given that today’s social order is feminine-primary under the guise of “equalism,” I don’t see anything confusing about Rollo’s usage of the words here. 2. Contrary to popular belief in feminism, the sexes are in fact different in more than just genitalia. Male and female brains are wired differently (have a look at http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/269652.php). Men and women are also physiologically different; men tend to be bigger and more muscular than women. Beyond that, women are subject to monthly cycles that have a profound effect on sexuality. These are just scraping the surface – there are very real differences… Read more »

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if12: “More than ever, I’m leaning to the view that the reason for working on fundamentals: working out, grooming, etc., is to produce confidence. If you get your confidence somewhere else, such as in a bottle from the liquor store, you’ll have success too.” There is some truth to that. Confidence is probably the single most important thing and a lot of fundamentals are just rational anchors to get stability in your irrational confidence. But that isn’t all. Working out for example helps your testosterone. Which in my humble theories from analyzing myself helps to counter or fight back the… Read more »

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@alphafemale I, for one welcome your POV, though I disagree with much of what you wrote. I certainly do not believe that men are superior to women, or that women should be beneath men. I hope that most of us here do not believe that, though some here are angry at their own misfortunes. However, this does not change the fact that men and women are different in more ways than their external genitalia. It is true that men have common experiences with women, and different experiences than other men. However, in general, most men have more in common with… Read more »

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Jeremy, First thank you for the polite reply. Definitely unexpected and very appreciated. The tenets of Red Pill philosophy are centered on a Captain/First Mate scenario in which women are always subservient to men in LTR’s and are used as sexual objects any other time. Sure they serve a purpose, but the general philosophy says they have no power. You can choose any variety of different techniques used by men to subjugate women to support this point – from “dread game” to displaying an extreme lack of basic empathy and compassion towards the woman, disregarding her feelings and treating her… Read more »

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@alpha female I’ll begin by saying that I agree with you about one thing – advice about subjugation of women is harmful. There are many things on RP sites that I, for one, disagree with. Some sites I avoid entirely because I find them too offensive. What I think you may not know is that most of the men here are not looking to dominate or subjugate women. In fact, most of us were raised with an extremely equal ist mentality. I know I was. The problem that we found was that in spite of their protestations to the contrary,… Read more »

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@ AlphaFemale “go to the source if you really want to learn.” You mean women? As in, go to women and act like a Beta chump, who’s a good listener, is caring, attentive, supportive, respectful, polite, and wants nothing more than to be with the woman and make her happy? Tells her he loves her, always wants to be with her, is always there for her when she needs him? Is the “ideal man” according to mainstream media and what women *say* they want? And see how quickly everything falls apart with her, whether it’s an LJBF, or her cheating… Read more »

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@ Alphafemale:

You wrote:

“So these facts which I know to be true (and I know you don’t, but I do) are proof positive to me that this theory may be applicable to a small subset of women but is not representative of the whole.”

Did it ever occur to you that YOU are part of a “small subset of women” (that is, women who don’t prefer Alphas) and that other women are as described on this blog?

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@AlphaFemale, re: “it is absolutely normal for [men] to branch swing” + “instead rely on subjective criteria”

Since I disbelieve you “have read countless entries from men”, I’ll wave you away dismissively by saying it is absolutely normal for women to commit the apex fallacy + women instead project about everything all the time. Countlessly.

Yes, I’ll read your response, but oh how I wish you were someone else.

jf12
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Not @AlphaFemale. “it is probably because it is viewed as lowering their status to admit their partner is not an ideal female. Alpha males especially rely on status for validation, and they are particularly prone to this type of behavior” She is a woman for sure. For her information, since she claims a degree of mental curiousity, if not acuity, regarding men’s thinking: Men do not care if their woman is “the best”. Men will not leave a good woman for a better woman. Alphas is particular will take a nice banana from one woman, and the bigger banana from… Read more »

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re: “It seems Red Pill philosophy is a case of men that have been hurt by specific women”

Specifically by women who consider themselves to be Alpha Females. Men don’t get hurt by women who are specifically trying to be submissive. Can any woman here see the irony? Think hard, now.

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@jf12
One place where I disagree with your comment – “men don’t get hurt by women who are specifically trying to be submissive.” Yes they do, especially when the men themselves also try to be submissive (ie. beta). In that case, the man may be exhibiting what he perceives to be “equalism” and his wife perceives to be submission. Many, many men have been hurt by women who prefer to be submissive.

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I’m not like other women. Yes, I dated a LOT of the so-called “alphas”, the so-called “bad boys”, but they were only good for sex and for nothing else. And when I couldn’t get the best one of those alphas for my husband, I chose the best of the nice guys I could get, whom I treat extremely poorly compared with how I treated the alphas. In fact, I treat him similar to how the alphas treated me, which is why I self-describe this way.

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re: “women who prefer to be submissive”

Totally distinct from “women who are specifically trying to be submissive”

jf12
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re: “the attraction you describe for your husband”

? “I love the way he enjoys rubbing my feet.”?

Novaseeker
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There is a (rather small) portion of alpha females who feel comfortable in a de facto female dominant (almost always, this is overtly egalitarian/equalitarian) frame with a husband. They’re not common, but they do exist. It’s not terribly helpful for most men to think about women in that vein, however, because they are so uncommon.

theasdgamer
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@ ton

So much of this seems like mental masterbation then useful intell

tl;dr

theasdgamer
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@ alfalfabrainedfemale

lol

theasdgamer
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Rollo, wasn’t there some study about the differences between two yo boys and girls as regards games that they like to play?

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@Novaseeker I know of several cases of women whom I perceive to have ego-invested in their own masculinity. Most women that I know, even the ones who are highly educated and successful, prefer to date hypergamously and prefer men with equal or higher education and earning potential. They might settle for someone lower if unable to secure commitment from the type of man they want, but their hypergamy is very much intact. To contrast, women who are ego-invested in their own masculinity date like men. They date men they perceive to be attractive, who validate their own ego. In other… Read more »

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@ alfafalfabrainedfemale

You can choose any variety of different techniques used by men to subjugate women

Lol, one person’s subjugation is another person’s leadership. If it results in content submission, it’s leadership; if it results in contentious rebellion, it’s subjugation–even if exactly the same methods are used./I>

theasdgamer
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Ever since I used Nuclear Dread, Mrs. Gamer has been happier, sings more, jokes more, laughs more, flirts with me much more aggressively, makes sammiches for me, etc.

Nuclear Dread (ND) produced a generally happier, more submissive wife. One day per week now she’s bitchy–right before I go out alone dancing. The next day, she’s back to normal. Few 5h1t-tests, some loyalty tests. I can act quite beta without many problems. Not that I do, much, but it doesn’t seem to generate 5h1t-tests. Of course, not sure how long the fallout will remain from ND.

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Ok, so maybe I’m not so special, not so different in actual behavior from the AWALT that you describe. But, I feel like I’m different. And you don’t know for an absolute fact that all women feel like that, do you?

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re: “women who are ego-invested in their own masculinity”

Betty Dodson’s big breakthrough was realizing that women’s experience of sex was vestigially masculine. I’m not talking specifically about her encouraging women to become more lesbian and more butch, which is also true, but that she came to realize that instructing women how to actively enjoy sex was *identical* with instructing women on how to be masculine.

The technique that put her over the top, that made her the go-to person for women trying to orgasm, was having her female students hump each other doggy style.

theasdgamer
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@ jf12

Ok, so maybe I’m not so special, not so different in actual behavior from the AWALT that you describe. But, I feel like I’m different. And you don’t know for an absolute fact that all women feel like that, do you?

I’m sorry, I don’t feel it. But you do make me feel like dancing.

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@”Alpha”Female Read more than one of Rollo’s articles before responding. 1) http://therationalmale.com/category/the-feminine-imperative/ 2) http://therationalmale.com/category/biomechanics/ 3) http://therationalmale.com/category/biomechanics/ 4) http://therationalmale.com/category/hypergamy-2/ 5) http://therationalmale.com/category/biomechanics/ 6) http://therationalmale.com/category/hypergamy-2/ So, in summary, every single “point” you made has been covered, refuted, and dealt with elsewhere on this blog (not to mention throughout the manosphere AND through experience in our own lives). Don’t come in here with your head firmly lodged in your ass and make the same blithe assertions every other fembot makes, expecting us to suddenly say “Oh shit! She’s asserting the same wrong advice every other woman we’ve ever met has given us, but this… Read more »

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re: experience of Love
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexless_marriage
“According to psychotherapist Tina Tessina, “The most common causes of sexless marriages (are that) one partner had their feelings hurt or got turned down too many times”
“Partners then feel resentment because of the perceived rejection”

According to women, the REAL problem is teh menz’ feelz; the men feel hurt; the men feel turned down, the men feel resentment, the men feel rejected. According to women, ever’thing would be fine if men would just shut up and accept the situation.

Jeremy
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@alfafemale The tenets of Red Pill philosophy are centered on a Captain/First Mate scenario in which women are always subservient to men in LTR’s and are used as sexual objects any other time. Sure they serve a purpose, but the general philosophy says they have no power. Let’s define power before we automatically presume that women have none by default, shall we? You are presuming an awful lot of things in that little paragraph fragment, many of which center around male power being the only power that exists. That’s a very limited view that deny’s the tremendous sexual power that… Read more »

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It was a leetle more hurried-upper than previously described. The local newspaper has some more info
http://www.newbernsj.com/news/local/sparks-wife-separate-after-25-years-of-marriage-1.421456

The postnup was signed Sept 23 and the initial offer on her house was just a few weeks later. Clearly she acquiesced in following instructions to get out of the house, without having planned to earlier.

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re: “women that are more intelligent, powerful, and are inherently stronger and better looking”

Oh, how I wish she were someone else.

jf12
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I think, presumptuously, that being here is antibiotic to the FI infection. But does it inoculate? Or does the antibiotic effect require a critical mass/ herd immunity?

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re: teaching Love

Ralph wants to raise her son as a lesbian.
http://thenextfamily.com/2014/10/things-i-want-my-son-to-learn/
She wants him to have feelings, provided they are girlish feelings that she preapproves.

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Shannon’s a great gal, but keeps forgetting that men are so much better than women.
“But Henry didn’t bat an eyelash. Instead he returned from the store with a wide array of lubricant choices”
http://thewomanformerlyknownasbeautiful.com/2015/01/female-lubricant.html

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Love, etc.
(I’m tellin’ ya, great song titles abound ever’where I goes)

Garcia et al. 2014. Variation in orgasm occurrence by sexual orientation in a sample of U.S. singles. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, 11(11), 2645–2652.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/jsm.12669/

Lesbians report having slightly more orgasms per sexual encounter than hetero women.

But.

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But,
“existing research consistently reported low rates of sexual activity for lesbians”
” Research has also consistently shown a quick decline in frequency over the course of lesbian relationships”
“the phenomena of lower sexual frequency is a shared experience regardless of the country”
“in looking at lesbian behavior alone, it would have been plausible to conclude that most lesbians did not value sex, given that two-thirds of lesbians in this sample have sex two times a month or less.”

Hence, having less frequent sex causes more orgasms for women, or more orgasms causes less frequent sex. Right?

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I left off the reference. Michele O’Mara’s 2012 PhD dissertation.
http://omaram.hypermart.net/Dissertation7.31.2012.pdf

jf12
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Men and women are exactly the same in every way! Remember how it used to be said disparagingly of someone utterly clueless that they couldn’t find their fanny with two hands?
http://thoughtcatalog.com/cara-dorris/2012/07/the-weird-sexual-lives-of-young-girls/
“In fourth grade, my friends and I tried to find our vaginas after they gave us the presentation about puberty (only one person found it).”

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On the Love Experience for women, continued. We KNOW this is how women are. 74% of newlywed women, still in some throes of honeymoonish feelings, “indicated some expectation of divorce”.

Campbell et al. 2012. Newlywed Women’s Marital Expectations: Lifelong Monogamy? Journal of Divorce & Remarriage, 53(2), 108-125.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10502556.2012.651966

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@AlphaFemale “The most popular trope is that ideas of gender are a social construct and that women and men are comparative equals and only their physical plumbing makes them different in form only.” There is evidence that exactly this is true. Examine how being transgender impacts someone’s gender. You believe in a heteronormative gender binary which clouds your judgment and makes you incapable of understanding how gender relates to power dynamics in society. Until you can grasp that gender is defined by more than genitals, you will continue to write this complete and utter tripe that disparages women for the… Read more »

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re: ” desire to have a body that you do not have”

I can think of a lot of evo-psych reasons for Freudian envy, if that’s where you want to go.

Novaseeker
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Since, as I have established, trangenderism is a mental illness. One must make the assumption that it is a social ill, brought about by changes to culture that present young impressionable boys with strong feelings of a lack of power to enact their own sexual success from an early age. This means that any and all arguments that “gender is a social construct that limits certain people with transgenderism,” are basically the same thing as a cancer doctor convincing the lifelong smoker that smoking is a disability and they should be in a protected class. Professor of Psychology Mike Bailey… Read more »

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Note: Bailey’s work (the stuff that I have read at least) relates almost exclusively to male-to-female transgendered people, and not female-to-male. I think he says somewhere in his writings that this is his focus because of the numbers involved (many more of them than vice versa).

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re: “The current movement is largely based on testimony from … mentally ill people”

“Go to the source” rotfl.

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@jf12

I can think of a lot of evo-psych reasons for Freudian envy, if that’s where you want to go.

Freudian envy can’t exist in a social or child-rearing vacuum, and it can’t exist purely under the rules of evolution. Note that I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, I’m simply saying that it can’t be classified as evolution-driven and thus must come from socialization (or lack thereof). I am interested to hear what you have to say.

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@Nova…

Both of those types appear to be seeking (intentionally or unintentionally) some aspect of the female sexual power of either attraction or selection. i.e., to my mind, they stem from the same issue, improper socialization of a young male.

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Both of those types appear to be seeking (intentionally or unintentionally) some aspect of the female sexual power of either attraction or selection. i.e., to my mind, they stem from the same issue, improper socialization of a young male. Yes, which is Bailey’s conclusion as well. He is sympathetic towards gays, so his prescription for the first type is basically “be a better-adjusted gay male”, but in both cases he sees the transgenderism as an appropriation of female sexual power of attraction/selection, for different reasons, both of which relate to alienation of their own ability to function successfully in the… Read more »

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re: testosterone in women

A little bit of testosterone makes women act better. The Goldilocks case of 0.5 mg sublingually makes essentially every woman become significantly nicer, as well as significantly hornier, within four hours.

C. Eisenegger, M. Naef, R. Snozzi, M. Heinrichs, E. Fehr. Prejudice and truth about the effect of testosterone on human bargaining behaviour. Nature, 463, 356-359.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7279/full/nature08711.html

van Rooij et al. 2014. Pharmacokinetics of a Prototype Formulation of Sublingual Testosterone and a Buspirone Tablet, Versus an Advanced Combination Tablet of Testosterone and Buspirone in Healthy Premenopausal Women. Drugs R D., 14(2), 125–132.

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He also says (if I am remembering correctly … the book is in a storage shed and I’m not going to retrieve it for this conversation, heh) that there are more male to female than vice versa for the same reason — more males are sexually alienated from being able to succeed sexually (either as straight or gay, depending on the guy) than women are, while the fewer women who are female-to-male are generally obviously physically alienated from being attractive as females — some of those become butch lesbians and some become Chaz Bono, in other words, but it’s a… Read more »

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@Jeremy Were I to hazard a guess, I’d say that transgender (much like every other psychological construct we discuss on here: hypergamy, love, etc) is a complex interaction of evolved AND socialization. In nature vs. nurture I’m not one to routinely rule one or the other out 100%. It’s more a case of degrees (i.e. which one has the greater influence) than a binary “Oh this is evolution and this is socialization”. Much like the specious claim that the existence of gender roles is 100% a social construct, claiming transgender is a 100% social construct is probably missing the nuances… Read more »

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re: ” I am interested to hear what you have to say.”

Maybe. Firstly, and boringly, consider that women’s sex qua sex (release, etc) is too clearly vestigial. Next, tell me why or why not male nipples “can’t exist purely under the rules of evolution”.

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Note I am not denying the existence of a “normative” set of gender characteristics that evolved and are set by genes at birth. I’m simply stating that if the process is complex enough under the hood, then those imperfections will arise as things that are not normative. Homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. They will never be the majority, but they might very well be a natural occurrence with only some regard toward the social structures they’re born in to.

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@jf12, Male nipples do not harm procreation, so there is no pressure to select them out. There isn’t much function to them, but there is no detriment to them. The existence of a trait must impact reproductive success in order to fall under the selection knife, otherwise evolution leaves it alone. This is actually a good thing, because retaining non-procreative-impacting traits increases diversity. Transgenderism, or the forceful non-procreation of an individual by way of desire to be that which you are not, *does* impact procreation. So the two do not compare. I would say the same with women’s sexual release,… Read more »

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re: “If gender is a social construct” then why aren’t there ever ANY femme lesbians going for female-to-male reassignment therapy? Why aren’t there ever ANY (buff, hairy) masculine gay men going for male-to-female reassignment therapy? Yes, I agree it would be completely contradictory for them to do so, but that’s my point.

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@Jeremy
Male nipples do not harm procreation, so there is no pressure to select them out.

Nipples are a part of the breast’s structure. Males get breast cancer while not needing breasts for child rearing purposes. I would see that as a reason to select it out.

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@ jf12

Next, tell me why or why not male nipples “can’t exist purely under the rules of evolution”.

Speaking vestigially and sillily, let me state unequivocally and pontificatingly that male nipples are lactatingly and sexually uninteresting.

This month has been designated by The Powers That Be (TPTB) as “Be Kind to Novel Adverbs” Month.

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@Sun Wukong

Nipples are a part of the breast’s structure. Males get breast cancer while not needing breasts for child rearing purposes. I would see that as a reason to select it out.

Cancer was an extremely rare disease when humans only lived to 30, which has been the case for most of humanity’s existence. So, cancer almost never weeded out DNA. Only in modern times, where women are having babies at 40-45 through the miracles of modern medicine, has Cancer ever had a significant impact on procreation.

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re: “The existence of a trait must impact reproductive success in order to fall under the selection knife”

Or, simply be associated with something else that impacts reproductive success. Moreover, variation per se does NOT fall under the selection knife. Is your juniper a little bit yellower? It doesn’t impact success significantly. Is your woman a little more masculine?

jf12
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Vestigiality alone ‘splains lots, and spandrels much more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)

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FWIW, things like (making up a percentage) “There’s no way that 5% of males could be homosexual since evolution would ensure that the 95% becomes 100%.” is bad reasoning both biologically and mathematically.

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Can spandrels between a sexually dimorphic species exist to a degree that impacts procreation? That does not seem plausible jf.

Keep in mind, very few vestigial traits/organs exist within the human body that serve no function at all. Even the appendix has been found to have survival uses, though it’s potentially lethal problems are obvious. Transgenderism serves no purpose at all, and in nearly 100% of cases it impacts procreation.

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@jf12

“There’s no way that 5% of males could be homosexual since evolution would ensure that the 95% becomes 100%.” is bad reasoning both biologically and mathematically.

Yeah, about that… I’m still not convinced that homosexuality is itself not a result of early childhood conditioning. I would wager the fact that the same percentage of homosexuals that exist now, also existed in civilizations 2000 years ago is actually better proof that human society hasn’t progressed as much as we’d like to think than it is proof that there’s a genetic predisposition towards it’s existence in that number.

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There’s no way that there can be short men. There’s no way there can be cankled women.

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Jeremy – “I would wager the fact that the same percentage of homosexuals that exist now, also existed in civilizations 2000 years ago is actually better proof that human society hasn’t progressed as much as we’d like to think”

Interesting.

I wonder if there were a significant difference in that precentage 1000 years ago, ya know during the dark ages? I can see similar percentages both now and at the height of the Roman Empire if your idea is correct.

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@ Jeremy

when humans only lived to 30, which has been the case for most of humanity’s existence.

Urban legend. Childbirth, working in agriculture and the mines, and childhood diseases were the biggest mortality factors. Other than that, people typically lived to 70-80. Read your Bible to get an idea of average longevity during Moses’ time.

“As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,”

It doesn’t require the assumption of divine inspiration to see that this assertion would have been controversial/ludicrous if not true at the time.

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There’s no way that there can be short men. There’s no way there can be cankled women. Short men and cankles are mostly influenced by environmental factors. China was a “short” country for hundreds of years, but it turns out that was mostly because they were all starving themselves. As a nation they simply did not give their children enough nutrition when growing up for many centuries. That’s changing and it’s now becoming obvious that height differences, while certainly genetic, have a childhood nutrition factor that dominates in the general population. @theasdgamer Urban legend. Childbirth, working in agriculture and the… Read more »

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Jeremy, That is interesting to learn (that a lot of men here don’t want to dominate or subjugate women). I see so many vitriolic posts regarding women, it’s hard to fathom that not everyone believes it. NAMALT? Maybe. I understand that men that subscribe to “Red Pill” philosophy THINK this is what women want. I’m not saying I’m the rule. However, I’ve known a variety of women, and I do know women that are submissive in a relationship and would work well with an alpha. My best friend is like this. She loves hypermasculine men that treat her like garbage.… Read more »

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@theassholegamer A real leader does so with compassion and understanding. An asshole leader gains no long term loyalty from his constituents. You’ve probably had bosses like this and know the difference between a good leader that commands respect because they genuinely care about the organization they are working for and want to make it better and provide realistic expectations for their employees vs. “leaders” (using the term loosely) that lead with an iron fist at the expense of everyone they deem to be beneath them. There’s a way to lead without creating an unwilling subject out of your partner. Mrs.… Read more »

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So much nonsense. Being the leader does not mean you treat the led like garbage. Not in the least, because that is bad leadership. Even a femdom knows better than that (or maybe not?). Women who are natural leaders in their relationships need to find naturally submissive/follower men. There aren’t that many women like that, even among very highly educated women (and I have spent the last 30 years of my life around such women, either as I was being educated, or as I was working, with them, respectively). But for the small percentage of women who are like that,… Read more »

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And, nota bene, signores, that this woman is the dominant in her relationship. She is a femdom (and I don’t mean that in the fetish sense, because no info has been disclosed on that). So she is rare (even in the fetish community, the femdoms are always the smallest number, behind the male doms, female subs and male subs). Take that into account when you parse what she is saying. She is an outlier, by admission, enough said.

AlphaFemale
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Rollo Tomassi, “Your intellectual lethargy surprises even me.” Why would it surprise you? Women don’t have smarts, they just have vagina and men use vagina for matin’ and stuff. Right? Intellectual lethargy would indicate I was intentionally being lazy and had ignored some important point of information to INTENTIONALLY form an uninformed opinion. Do you expect all of your commenters to have read every single article you’ve ever written? Obviously I haven’t read everything you’ve ever written. Also, I can tell you are the one that is intellectually deficient. You cannot read the many points I’ve made without mentioning that… Read more »

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@novaseeker A femdom…have never heard of such a thing. Do you like labels? Does it make you feel like you can dismiss my points because you’ve already black boxed me out of your personal experience? It is anticipated. I am exactly the opposite of what you think women are, so I’m very dismissible. The term femdom doesn’t sound very hot to me. Is it like BDSM or something? Cause no my husband’s not submissive like THAT. He’s just not super dominant. Even though I am the dominant one, I like someone who challenges me because intensity makes relationships better (in… Read more »

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AlphaFemale
January 8th, 2015 at 4:31 am

Despite your handle I’d rate you beta to beta minus.

M Simon
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5. And yet, there are more asexual women than there are asexual men. If anything, trends in asexuality could support the idea that most men’s libidos tend to be higher than most women’s. However, asexuality is still poorly understood, so there’s no concrete evidence to draw from in the first place. Your argument is “non-fact based.”

I did a rough estimate of that once. Men are about half a standard deviation higher. Which means a lot of overlap. Where it matters for men is on the high drive right tail.

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“stop being lazy and address my arguments directly”

***MOST IMPORTANT POINT***

I would rather Rollo invest his time in his next post

btw it would be cool if Rollo could mention in a sort of closing comment that the next post is ready

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“Despite your handle I’d rate you beta to beta minus”

yes, but she would think she was alpha compared her beta pussy whipped SO

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Novaseeker
January 8th, 2015 at 9:46 am

I don’t rate alphaness in females that way.

AFem – will fight another woman for her man
likes beating the competition

BFem – drops her man in the face of competition.
blames the competition

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jf12
January 8th, 2015 at 11:16 am

Interesting. I had to teach the fm mate that. And it was a LOT about her experiencing sex like a man. Active interested participatory. I had never run into a woman significantly like that before her. I even had to teach her to breathe. And when she got a handle on that we worked on movement.

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Jeremy January 8th, 2015 at 3:37 pm Well things get screwed up occasionally. It is thought that hormones in the womb account for part of it. In big families a brother who liked helping raise children could have selection value. So I’m not going with impossible. Just – very unlikely. I think there are probably two strands – dysfunctional raising and innate. I once helped a lesbian go straight. Unfortunately she didn’t do it with me. But I did greatly enjoy her GF and the parts of her she let me access. Which was quite a bit once she got… Read more »

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