The Love Experience

experience

Glenn and a few others had a question about last week’s Love Commodity post.:

@Rollo – This seems very inconsistent to me. How can this be true – ” Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. ” While this is true? “In an era of unapologetic feminine primacy and unignorable open Hypergamy, this commodification undeniably rests with the feminine.”

You’ll have to forgive a long explanation, I couldn’t simply drop this into the commentary, a full post was necessary.

The first thing we need to consider is the Male Experience vs. the female experience. I hate to get too existential, but it comes down to our individuated experiences as men and women. I’m going to give two examples here and this will also cover the Hypergamy is everything thread I noticed the commentary too.

There’s an interesting conflict of societal messaging we get from an equalitarian / feminine-primary social order. This is one that simultaneously tells us that “we are not so different” or “we are more alike than we are different” and then, yet implores use to “celebrate our diversity” and “embrace (or tolerate) our differences” as people.

This is easily observable in issues of ethnicity, but it also crosses over into issues of gender. The most popular trope is that ideas of gender are a social construct and that women and men are comparative equals and only their physical plumbing makes them different in form only.

From a Red Pill perspective we see the error in evidence of this egalitarian fantasy. I’ve written countless posts on the evidential and logical fallacies that make up gender equalism, but the important thing to be aware of is the conflict inherent within that belief – equalism expects men and women’s existential experiences to be the same, while also pleading that we embrace the differences it purports we don’t actually have.

It fundamentally denies the separation, from an evolved biological / psychological perspective, that men and women experience life in different ways. The idea is that it’s the nebulous ‘society’ that determines our gender experiences and less, if nothing, of it is truly influenced by a human being’s psychological-biological firmware.

zdr01dz posted this:

I think maybe this is in part because men have no innate desire to marry up. Hypergamy doesn’t compute for us. I know what hunger feels like and I assume women feel it the same way I do. I’m empathetic to poor, hungry children because I know what they’re feeling. However I have no idea what hypergamy feels like. I’ve never felt it’s pull.

My second example comes from Women and Sex in which I explore the fallacy of the social convention that insists “women are just as sexual as men” and that “women want sex, enjoy sex, even more than men.”

This canard is both observably and biologically disprovable, but the presumption is based on the same “we’re all the same, but celebrate the difference” conflicting principle that I mentioned above. If a dynamic is complimentary to the feminine then the biological basis is one we’re expected to ’embrace the diversity’ of, but if the dynamic is unflattering to the feminine it’s the result “of a society that’s fixated on teaching gender roles to ensure the Patriarchy, we’re really more alike than not.”

The idea is patently false because there is no real way any woman can experience the existence and conditions that a man does throughout his life. I mention in that essay about how a female amateur body builder I knew who was dumbstruck by how horny she became after her first cycle of anabolic steroids. “I can’t believe men can live in a state like this” were her exact words. She was just beginning to get a taste of what men experience and control in their own skins 24 hours a day and it was unsettling for her.

Women are used to a cyclic experience of sexuality, whereas men must be ready to perform at the first, best opportunity sexually. These are our individuated experiences and despite all the bleating of the equalists they are qualitatively different. As zdr01dz observes, no man has an idea of what Hypergamy feels like. To my knowledge there is no drug or hormone that can simulate the existential experience of Hypergamy. Even if there were, men and women’s minds are fundamentally wired differently, so the simulated experience could never be replicated for a man.

I understand how Hypergamy works from observing the behavior and understanding the motivating biology for it. I also understand that our species evolved with, and benefitted from it – or at least it makes deductive sense that what we know as Hypergamy today is a derivative of that evolution – but what I don’t have is a firsthand, existential experience of Hypergamy and I never will. Likewise, women will never have a similar existential experience of what it’s like to be a man.

So it should be an easy follow to deduce that how a woman experiences love, as based on her Hypergamic opportunistic impulses, is a fundamentally different experience than that of a man’s. The equalist social order want’s love to be an equal, mutual, agreement on a definition of love that transcends individuated gender experience, but it simply will not accept that an intersexual experience of love is defined by each sex’s individuated experience.

I have no doubt that there are areas of crossover in both men’s idealistic concept of love and women’s opportunistic concept, but this experience of love is still defined by gender-specific individuation. By that I mean that women can and do experience intense feelings of love for a man based on her Hypergamously influenced criteria for love.

I’m actually surprised that more women have yet to call me to the carpet about their personal experiences of love from the commodity post, but if you sift through the comments on Women in Love and other blog/forum comments you’ll come across examples of women describing in great detail how deeply they love their husbands / boyfriends, and are in complete disarray over being told their love stems from Hypergamic opportunism. Again, I have no doubt that their feelings of love are genuine to them based on their individuated concepts of love; indeed they’re ready to fight you tooth and nail to defend their investment in those feelings. What I’m saying is that the criteria a man should need to meet in order to generate those emotions and arrive at a love state are not universally mutual as an equalitarian social order would have the whole of society believe.

So, yes, men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely – from their own individuated experiences. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. The processes they used to come to this love state differs in concept and existential individuation, and what sustains that love state is still dependent upon the criteria of men’s idealistic and women opportunistic concepts of love.

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

The commodification of that love state is presently weighted on the feminine because the Feminine Imperative is socially ascendant. The importance of satisfying the female sexual (and really life-goal) strategy takes primary social precedence today. Thus men’s individuated experience is devalued to an assumption of an “it’s-all-equal” universality while women’s is blown up out of all real valuation with collective expectations of “embracing their unique difference” set apart from that universality. If men’s experience is one-size-fits-all it’s really a small, and socially blameless, step for a woman to withhold the reward criteria men place on their idealistic love in order to satisfy their own sexual strategy.

Women’s social primacy allows them to feel good about themselves for commodifying the idealistic rewards men value to come to their own state of love, as well as maintain it.

It is one further step to embrace the concept that men’s experience of love, the idealism he applies to it and even his own sexual and life imperatives are in fact the same as those of women’s – while still setting women’s apart when it serves them better. Thus the cardinal rule of sexual strategies comes to a feminine-primary consolidation by socially convincing men that women’s experience and imperatives are, or should be considered to be, the same as men’s individuated experiences. Add women’s already innate solipsism to this and you have a formula for a gender-universal presumption of the experience of love based primarily on the individuated female experience of love.

In other words, women expect men to socially and psychologically agree with, reinforce and cooperate with the opportunistic feminine model of love as the equalist, gender-mutual model model of love while still believing that women share their own idealistic model. It’s the correct model that should work for everyone, or so women’s solipsism would have us believe.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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AlphaFemale
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Just as a PSA, I am not an elitist, nor am I even a leftist. I am a libertarian leaning independent, and I do not think I’m “better” than people that do hard work but don’t have my education. I mean, I realize that ad hominem attacks and attempting to position yourself as superior because you respect “smart people” who “don’t have an education” makes you feel justified to totally disregard the way I threw your shitty logic right back at you, but the way you men continue to argue about it is really starting to concern me. Do you… Read more »

jf12
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One time we were visiting my little brother and his wife, and his in laws were over for a cookout. He had an old horseshoe court haphazardly laid out near the back fence, mismatched horseshoes, crooked stakes, rutted yard, dog poop, etc. As was his wont he had already gotten drunk off the first two beers, but wasn’t getting much drunker as he continued steadily. My oldest daughter thought he was cool. The dad styled himself some kind of horseshoe player, in shorts and dress shoes. He complained about the stakes, couldn’t walk his throw right, etc. We mocked his… Read more »

D-Man
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“There are cultures in existence where women are treated like property and are not even allowed to walk down the street without a male relative – where they are stoned to death for being gang raped!”

So stop yelling at us about it, we’re not doing it. Go over there and fix it yourself. You’re as good as any man..

jf12
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re: equal access.

You don’t mean equal access in everything. For example you don’t mean every man gets equal access to sex. Who gets to decide which things are equal? Who gets to decide what equal is? Who gets to decide who gets to decide?

AlphaFemale
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D-man, You certainly have a lot of confidence in me. Appreciate it. However, it’s kinda hard to make strides with leadership when they think you should be stoned to death bc like genitals and stuff.

Jf12, Do you really require a response as to why equal access to education is different than equal access to sex?

Not to mention that you have access to sex. Go get a prostitute if you can’t close the deal.

Sun Wukong
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When I realize in a discussion that there are no minds open to being changed, I stop wasting my time.

You guys have wasted a lot of time today. On both sides.

M Simon
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We are now past 700 and the vomitus continues. How about declaring alfalfa the winner and going home. If it makes you feel better you can declare her the loser and do the same.

Anonymous2
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“Basically, women are in full control of human evolution, and always will be.” This idea may not be correct, at least for the majority of the past human and proto-human history. Is it really accurate to think that women were the selectors of men who they had children with, and not the other way around for most of human history? I believe that most of the mating that took place may in fact be by the more dominant and powerful men selecting the women. Most mating occurred primarily through force (rape or arranged pairing or marriages as human societies became… Read more »

jf12
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re: “Do you really require a response as to why equal access to education is different than equal access to sex?”

Yes.

You have access to education, to jobs, to cute shoes. Ain’t my fault if you can’t close the deal.

jf12
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re: “Is it really accurate to think that women were the selectors of men who they had children with”?

Yes. The rapers and pillagers weren’t selective.

Dr. Nova
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AF, I don’t always think clearly when I am tired and yesterday was a long day, but I think this morning I am understanding better. You are one of these people who equates any good or benefit to women with feminism and any thing that you think hurts women with anti-feminism. Thus, if a woman in any way succeeds (ie, earns a PhD) she is beholden to feminism, and if a woman suffers (physical violence etc) it is the fault of those who are against feminism. I believe that is what you call a logical fallacy. Since you are “actually… Read more »

jf12
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re: “I believe that is what you call a logical fallacy.”

“Some humans are more equal than others.” Actually it’s a lot of types of fallacies all rolled together, and smoldering poorly. The broadest outline of her argument is a deifinitional fallacy and moralistic fallacy combined with a moving goalpost fallacy combined with, of course, begging the question. “If it’s what I say is good for women despite being bad for men, then it’s good for men, because equality.”

“Even if you have to break a few eggs, you’re not really breaking any eggs because you’re making an omelette.”

M Simon
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You are not breaking eggs. You are killing chickens.

redlight
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entertaining like Monty Python’s Black Knight fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw

“How about declaring alfalfa the winner and going home”

King Arthur: “alright we’ll call it a draw”

theasdgamer
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I would first like to preface my reply by saying that my analysis of you is satirical and is meant to showcase the flawed logic used by RP men to justify treating women badly “because they really want it.” Alfalfa fails to understand that women’s amygdalas respond to jerks even though their cortices abhor jerks. Jerks = more masculine mates. Which is why during courtship & sex women’s amygdalas take control from women’s cortices. If the cortisol level in the amydala gets too high, then the amydala relinquishes control back to the cortex. Alfalfa argues that ethics triumphs over or… Read more »

LiveFearless
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The sock puppets aren’t regular readers, but they’re experts on Dread:

Suzy explains that she has recently been administered “dread game” by her “alpha” partner.

LiveFearless
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The sock puppets aren’t regular readers, but they hang out in subreddits:

I actually read a field report from some dude on the subreddit that illustrates

Anonymous2
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“re: “Is it really accurate to think that women were the selectors of men who they had children with”? Yes. The rapers and pillagers weren’t selective.” It’s true I think that the men may not have been selective regarding women, but the men were selective in a way among themselves – the stronger men beating out the weaker men in getting a chance at procreation with the women. Women were just at the mercy and vulnerable to any man in general, it’s just that the stronger/dominant men won. The women had no choice on selection in the matter – so… Read more »

teddj4g
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I think AF is like the Obama of feminism: “you didn’t build that!”. As if the ONLY way a woman could ever succeed at something/anything is through feminism as we know it today. Is it that hard to believe some of us are all for equal rights, but not as implemented today? And frankly, I don’t want to hear shit about equal rights until all family court law is chucked and rebuilt from scratch. I have no problem with equal rights as long as it comes with equal responsibility. What we have is UNequal rights for everyone and responsibility for… Read more »

heyjay
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It’s always the same ol’. I haven’t read all the bs that’s been stated here by some random troll, but it never stopped fascinating me, how it never fails to trigger a lot of male commenters to try to discuss logically with her. Which results in a bazillion comments leading the mostly fruitful discussions astray. I value that Rollo’s comment section is not moderated but these cases are just annoying. How can you discuss scientific results with answers like: “I think that fe/fi theory is wrong, here is my own theory…” It’s the typical female discussion style that can never… Read more »

New Yorker
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I feel bad for Alpha Female’s beta mate. The man does not know the pleasure of seeing a woman in total submission to his will.

With that said, the only way to win real non-calculated submission from an LTR mate is to take her best shots with amused mastery and Fuck her with savage abandon to finish an argument. Until you have done that, you have not won your girl’s submission. None will truly submit willingly (early relationship bloom does not count).

BuenaVista
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AlfaFemale’s pull-string talking points are drearily familiar, as is the dynamic of her strident claims to her social justice warrioring.

I’ve found it useful to laugh and change the subject when someone of this ilk suggests that social progress rests on her sacrificial labors. Why? Well, they still feel entitled to a CEO with a plane and a Porsche, and a functioning prick. It’s a lot of P’s ( junior high alliteration) but they are not going home with PajamaBoy, profound protestations aside.

D-Man
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“Women were just at the mercy and vulnerable to any man in general” This seems to be a popular way of looking at history – perhaps because it serves certain interests – but I don’t think it’s a complete picture, it’s too simplistic. Cave man bashes cave woman over head with club and drags her away by hair. People allow cartoon images like this to direct their thinking, and it’s a mistake. I think Jeremy’s statement, which spurred your response, has significant merit, and the truth is probably somewhere in between. For starters, look at archaeology. The Venus of Willendorf… Read more »

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[…] list below in the comment thread. You can pick up the old thread to see where her rabbit hole goes here, but as you’ll probably expect most of the conversation revolves her own personal experiences […]

AlphaFemale
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@Dr Nova, I’m actually disappointed and I don’t know why. I really thought you were going to try to form a cogent argument in response, but you didn’t. All you did was make some brash general statement about how I think X because I recognize that providing women with access to education was part of the equal rights movement (pick up a damn history book, doc, if you think otherwise), and that I think that cultures that treat women as property and punish them for gang rape are misogynist. Um. The sky is also blue, and the grass is often… Read more »

D-Man
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As a gruesome addition: infanticide, as it occurs in the modern world, is almost exclusively committed by women against their own children. Is this another ancient signal? You’re damn right Jeremy, by and large and through many means, women have always controlled who makes it to the next generation. Another one off the top of my head is that women have always known more intimately the mystery of their own ovulation. It was likely considered magic before modern times. Once again, when you look at it this way, to women who complain about the way things are today: look at… Read more »

AlphaFemale
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@Dr Nova,

Also, the reason I responded that you would be posting ‘psychbabble bullshit’ is because your first response to me NICELY asking your fiancé a question about why you were pursuing a PhD if you believe women to be inferior to men was to call me an “idiot” and a “bitch.” So I typecast you and was exactly right.

*bows*

Glenn
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@Novaseeker – Great cite on Bailey. For those interested in a deeper look into his work on homosexuality and transgenderism, he wrote a great book that is quite accessible for non-academics and published it online, for free. The book is titled The Man Who Would Be Queen here’s the link http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/TMWWBQ.pdf As for the rest of the commentary, I’m still working my way through it. I’m sure others are having to take it on in chunks too. That said, I have to add that I must be really growing because AlphaFemale is a yawner to me. I simply don’t engage… Read more »

Dr. Nova
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AF, I’m not sure why you’re disappointed. I am kinda irritated by all your goalpost moving rhetoric, inability to think outside of the story your “history” books taught you about the glories of feminism and “drops the mic” and “bows” hubris. Perhaps your disappointment is because I am not very skilled at rhetorical arguments. In fact I kind of hate them. I much prefer to deal with reality then rhetoric. For example, I should never have used the example of IQ as a statement of something measurable that allows comparison between individuals. That was really stupid of me and a… Read more »

Softek
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@ Glenn Thanks for sharing. Your comments are still one of my favorite parts of RM by far. As for chicks like AlphaFemale… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GodiSZ8rZk I was talking to one the other day actually. Gorgeous. Energetic. But very masculine. A part of me feels like I could deal with that and she looked like she could be some fun, but the lyrics spell my feelings out clear as day: “I’m not the only soul’s accused of hit and run Tire tracks all across your back, I can see you had your fun But darling, can’t you see my signals turn from… Read more »

Louise
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Louise
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I think Alice Thomas Ellis probably got it right when she wrote: “there is no recipricocity. Men love women. Women love children. Children love hamsters. Hamsters don’t love anyone.”

Jeremy
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@alpha female I enjoy intellectual debate. As long as the goal is learning, refining thoughts, and discovering new insights I’m all for it. I don’t see your comments as attacks, rather simply as a debate between disagreeing individuals. And, believe it or not, if you or anyone else is able to prove a point to me, I’ll gladly adopt it. The caveat is that you have to be willing to do the same Regarding theories of Fe/Fi conflict, I think you’ll find them accurate and demonstrable, both in males and females. It is more applicable in females, though, because more… Read more »

AlphaFemale
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Dr. Nova, I’m disappointed because I thought you might actually attempt to have a dialogue with me that addressed the points I made, which you made clear you weren’t going to do with your straw man ‘but you believe all good things are from feminism and all bad things are from guys’ or some such nonsense. That is a blatant fabrication and a ridiculous assertion. Yeah I was a little inflamed when you called me an “idiot” and a “bitch” for asking a simple question about your motivations for earning a PhD so I get where you’re coming from on… Read more »

Jeremy
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As a final thought to you, AF, after re-reading your last post to me – I think you are attributing thoughts to me that I don’t harbor. To be clear – I do not advocate men treating women badly. At all. Not with violence, not with threats, not with psychological abuse, withholding affection, or any means to exert power or controlling behaviour. I have a wife, 2 daughters, a mother, a sister, and many female friends. I want the best for them and would take extreme exception to any man who treated them so. The problem that I, and most… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Softek – Greatest comment, ever! Jimi rocked out with his cock out. Lots of bands from back then and the ’70s did so. Just listen to Led Zeppelin, it’s very masculine in a way most music today can’t even touch. I’ve discovered rap/hip hop over the past 4-5 years, surprisingly to me. Snoop Dogg did it for me, on to Tupac, Biggie and out from there – they too are/were unafraid to be men and talk about women as they see/saw them. Going through a weird time with women. On the one hand, I get them so much better… Read more »

Anonymous2
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“Women want sex far more than we’ve been allowed to believe. So suggests a new book that shatters many of our most cherished myths about desire, including the widespread assumption that women’s lust is inextricably bound up with emotional connection. Are men ready to cope with the reality of heterosexual women’s horniness? The evidence suggests we aren’t, at least not yet.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/turns-out-women-have-really-really-strong-sex-drives-can-men-handle-it/276598/

Dr. Nova
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AF, Let’s set a few things straight. 1. I came here willingly to respond to things you had either asked about me or said about me, period. I didn’t come here to have a dialogue with you about the entire constructed worldview of feminism. I owe you zero response to your points or arguments. You aren’t open to my responses anyway, as you have very clearly demonstrated (you know, since I can’t *possibly* think x, y or z). I had years of experience talking about feminism with feminists on the Internet and I’ve had enough of that. I like to… Read more »

cocoatsecretindulgence
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I have been following Rollo’s work since the beginning of this blog. Your insight and education has brought very noticeable change in my life. I became more aware of the fem-centric societal norms. I am also more concerned with my own self improvement instead of the validation of women. I want to take this opportunity to thank you for your effort. Following Livefearless’s call, I also want to encourage other readers who have benefitted from this blog to voice your support for Rollo. Please keep up the good work. You have made massive impact on numerous male souls. I wish… Read more »

Chaoticia
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Men and women are like two separate species, in a constant, unconscious evolutionary arms race around sex based on the best reproduction and survival of humanity. I personally can’t reconcile romantic love, and see it as just a cutthroat, unconscious means from natural selection to cause reproduction, and orgasm as a necessary bodily function like eating or defecating. But I won’t be one-sided, which is very easy to do, and make out hypergamy to be more evil than our male wired-in attraction to female youth and beauty. Sexually-avoidant teenagers showing higher IQ’s makes me think it can be replicated in… Read more »

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lyric
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This is fucking stupid.

IDEALISTIC people love idealistically.

OPPORTUNISTIC people love opportunistically.

Idealistic people tend to be privileged, entitled folk who have gotten everything they have wanted from a young page. I’ve known female “princesses” who dream about finding their prince and loving them conditionally. I’ve known naive men who want a perfect girl that they’ve been dreaming out.

Then these folk get taken advantage by someone of the opposite sex who had to WORK for what they have, and they cry about the opposite sex being “opportunistic lovers”.

Lmao. Grow up.

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[…] I wrote The Love Experience I was asked to elaborate on a quote I’d made about men and women both having the capacity to […]

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