The Severing

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I’m not really sure where to begin with the killings in Santa Barbara.

About 6 years ago my niece attended UCSB and I became peripherally aware of the social landscape there from what she’d relate either to the family or via FaceBook. It wasn’t really anything less than I’d expect from a notorious ‘party school’ populated by the kids of affluent families – beautiful people, beautiful environment and all the displays of conspicuous consumption you’d probably expect. And it would be the perfect hell for a guy like Eliot Rodger.

Until now I’ve tactically avoided throwing my hat in the ring about this incident because I know the dangers inherent in going off half-cocked about a developing story. If you’re looking for details and information about how this kid evolved into what he was I’ll refer you to Heartiste’s, RoK’s and JustFourGuys breakdown of it. That said I’m going to tap out a few of my own personal thoughts about the kid and the social impact of not just how he came to be, but also what you can expect from a feminine-primary media.

PUAHate

As I’m sure most of the primary manosphere sites have, the members of the PUAHate forum found select posts at Rational Male as a particular targets of their vitriol. When I initially became aware of the forum (via link backs) it was due to their being very publicly linked to the Manboobz blog (now We Hunted the Mammoth).

After perusing the forum for a bit I wrote it off as a collection of guys commiserating about their shared social disenfranchisement and, not to be too blunt, but their shared lack of social intelligence. That these guys were angry with the manosphere was pretty much a given. For the most, they fit a particular personality pattern that’s characteristic of boys / men looking for an easy solution to their social ostracization and noted rejection from female intimacy.

I know the personality well since these types of guys are usually the first to email/PM me for advice for the easiest path between where they are now and where they want to be. They initially believe that Game / red pill awareness / PUA techniques are the panacea they’re looking for to cure their largely sexless and lonely existences.

When, due to their functional autism, Asperger’s syndrome or simply a social awkwardness, they find that the only thing that posed to be a ‘plan’ to help them “get their girl” doesn’t work the way they’d hoped, the reaction is a hostile rejection of what they believe ‘promised’ them the results of curing their sexless state.

To compound things the same PUAs they sought help from, become caricatures of the men who are successfully hooking up with the girls they wanted really nothing more than to be a loyal boyfriend to. They resort back to the only thing they knew, Beta Gameidentify and qualify with women – only now they not only reinvest themselves in it they want to become activists against any form of Game that isn’t what they believe women should respond to.

I don’t have any corroboration of it, but my guess is that a guy like Eliot would’ve made the ridicule list for the now defunct Tumblr “Nice Guys of OKCupid“. I’d suggest reading that post as a primer for anyone wanting to get a better grasp of how this personality type thinks and is ridiculed for.

The PUAs they’d hoped would let them in on the ‘secret’ to a woman’s intimacy, are revealed to them as the charlatan Bad Boy, ‘Alpha males’ they’ve always resented, who they believe mock them with every successful lay they manage.

What’s worse, what fuels their PUAHate activism, is that they ever believed their ‘enemy’ would reveal a way to become like they are. I bring up this observation from experience. I’ve had more than a few of these kinds of guys hit me up, not for advice, but a specific plan that will lead them to some kind of relief from their condition.

Descriptions and Prescriptions

In Preventative Medicine IV a commenter (who, for the record is not an InCel by any stretch) asked me why I had no real prescriptive plan for men to follow with regards to ‘preventing’ or avoiding the bad decisions associated with the time line I laid out in that series. This was my response:

Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader like bbb experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it (in fact I have a post in the can about menopause) but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts.

From my earliest posts at SoSuave I’ve had men ask me for some ‘medicine’ for their condition; some personalized plan that will work for them. This sentiment is exactly what makes PUA and manosphere ‘self-help’ speakers sell DVDs and seats at seminars. They claim to have the cure. I say that’s bullshit.

I’m not in the business of cures, I’m in the business of diagnoses. Imagine David D’ Angelo, the “new” Tucker Max or Tyler Durden attempting to force fit their plans to accommodate bbb’s situation. Athol Kay makes attempts to remedy married men’s (non) sex lives, but what’s his real success rate? Is it even measurable? Even Athol recognizes that his MMSL outline is just a map, a diagnosis, that men have to modify for themselves per their individual experience and demographic. You see, your cure, your plan of action isn’t what bbb’s will be, or your future son’s, or anyone else reading my work. I can give you a map, but you still have to make your own trail. I’m not a savior, you are your savior

Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.

What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads a man to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for his better understanding and he creates his own success with it?

Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.

Most men already know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they actually have the keys.

My approach to Game is defined in much broader terms than simply ‘how to get girls’, and I think for the better part of the manosphere the understanding of Game has evolved beyond rote memorization of scripts and plans. It’s gotten to a stage where even the most enthusiastic proponents of PUA techniques acknowledge a need for an individualized approach to relating and interacting with women based on a broader applied understanding of feminine psychology, sociology and the particular conditions that apply to themselves as well as the women they’re interacting with.

It’s been noted before, my approach to Game is descriptive, not prescriptive.

What’s Next?

In the next month or so I expect there will be a lot of armchair psychologists making their best attempt to suss out what Eliot’s killings represent without ever really having experienced in any depth the mental schemas of minds like his. A fem-centric media and society will want its easy, binary answers and I suspect they’ll get no less in passing Eliot’s neurosis off on whatever conveniently fits the narrative that makes for the easiest to swallow and move on.

Right now I expect that’s going to be the manosphere, but Eliot wasn’t our monster, he was the product of his own psychosis and his neurotic belief in the First Set of Books. Eliot was a more violent version of what happens when socially maladaptive men root themselves in a transactional, reciprocal, model of what would solve his loneliness, sexual frustration and desperation.

Eliot and those of his mindset believed that everyone ought to be playing by the set of rules he was conditioned to believe everyone else was playing by and he dutifully subscribed to. They want a prescription, not a painful, ego destroying description.

Under those rules, he embodied his own definition of an Alpha – the guy who played it right and would be gratefully appreciated by any normal person adhering to the way things should be. But he couldn’t come to terms with the fact that everyone else wasn’t playing by that rule set, and he wouldn’t be rewarded for his self-righteous dedication to his conditioning with sex or justice or even basic human interaction. Six people died because he couldn’t come to terms with the fact that much of the opposite of what that conditioning taught him was what he saw was being rewarded.

Would a better grasp of Game have changed Eliot’s mind? I doubt it.

That’s not an indictment of Game or red pill awareness, but rather an understanding of the mindset he developed. I know the obsessiveness of the kind of guy Eliot was. A devoted girlfriend, and her sexual affections wouldn’t have steered his course any differently.

His hate required his destitution, and vice versa. That hate wasn’t about women or misogyny, or Alpha jocks getting after it with the girls he wanted, or even PUAs selling him a new set of rules he couldn’t stomach; his hate was about his inability to reconcile his ego with the ugly realities that a brief exposure to red pill truths revealed to him.

Game saves lives, and not just the lives of the person awakening to a red pill awareness. I know this firsthand from twelve years of private email testimonials and heartbreaking confessions.

Game saves lives, particularly in an era where hypergamy and the new gender paradigm, established since the sexual revolution, ruthlessly selects-out men who might otherwise expect to be considered intimately acceptable by their dedication and adherence to the set of beliefs their feminized conditioning has promised them would be their reward – but the men who need it most have to come to terms with the pain, remorse and resentment of having ever needed to cut themselves away from their prior system belief.

That severance from their conditioned ego-investment is a test that will either prompt them to see the old system for what it was and adapt, or simply put a gun to their head (or the heads of others beforehand).

It is very difficult to make men aware of Game, but the acceptance of it is more difficult when it challenges a man’s sense of self that’s been literally built upon the belief that the system he’s cut himself away from was part of who he really is.

The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill

The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t make truth hurt any less, nor does it make truth any prettier, and it certainly doesn’t absolve you of the responsibilities that truth requires. One of the biggest obstacles guys face in unplugging is accepting the hard truths that Game forces upon them. Among these is bearing the burden of realizing what you’ve been conditioned to believe for so long were comfortable ideals and loving expectations are really liabilities. Call them lies if you want, but there’s a certain hopeless nihilism that accompanies categorizing what really amounts to a system that you are now cut away from. It is not that you’re hopeless, it’s that you lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.

As an end note here I think in the coming weeks there will be a greater scrutiny placed on Game and the manosphere in general. There will undoubtedly be more back and forth about the how’s and why’s of Eliot’s killings, and I sincerely doubt all the effort expended to prove that this kid was an antisocial, psychotic and really needed the unplugging an acceptance of Game would’ve benefitted him with. You simply wont teach those unwilling to learn.

However, as always, my comment thread here will be unmoderated for those who want to offer their take on all this. I would ask though that if you have a personal testimonial about how Game, or The Rational Male (book or blog) or any other manosphere writer, or idea / experience changed the course of your life, please considering leaving it here for the benefit of others. Nothing is TL;DR as far as I’m concerned.

As I mentioned earlier, I have an email ‘save’ box reserved for inspirational emails I receive from readers. Many of these are confessionals about aborted suicide attempts due in part or whole to something I wrote or caused some man to rethink. I wouldn’t dream of breaking any man’s confidence by copy and pasting them into a blog post, but if you have some experience you comfortable with sharing in the comments I’d encourage you to do so during this time.

Thank you.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@ Steve H and eon: Thanks for the support and advice. I’ve been having a lot of ups and downs lately although I’m staying the course with working out and taking care of myself by keeping a good diet. I have a lot of other ambitions and hobbies and tons of things to spend my time on — never a dull moment in my day. I’ve just lost focus on all of them because of the loneliness. So my priority lately on top of taking physical care of my body has been focusing on taking care of my mind and… Read more »

MattW
7 years ago

Someone once asked Joseph Smith (founder of the mormon church) how he was able to govern so many people. His response:

“I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

I see it applying here. If you have to ask someone about every little situation you’re never going to get anywhere. When you learn math you can’t have a tutor show you how to work every individual problem. You have to learn the basic principles, true principles, and then you have to apply it yourself and learn from your own mistakes.

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[…] the numerous manospherian blogs about this incident (the highlights are discovered here, here and here). Being a barely-legal 22-year-old virgin who longed for that special girl to pop his cherry, his […]

Will
7 years ago

I am 1 year post game awareness/learning. I became aware after a really rough blind side LTR break up. I’m still young though, 23 yrs old. I will say that all of this “red pill” online is addicting and I’ve found myself obsessing over it and analyzing too much–almost getting trapped in my head (which clearly happened to Rogers but in an unproductive way I guess). “Red Pill” has IN FACT brought to light the areas that I FUCKED up in my LTR. I literally had no idea how to not be “beta”. I think “red pill” isn’t as important… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
7 years ago

“sadly, we’re also likely to see more guys snapping…the kind that gets the ratings” “guys need help developing the skill of Not Giving Too Much of a Fuck” “the status quo is pushing inherently fallible human beings past their breaking point” Sad to see my comments from just over a month ago be so tragically relevant. Also sad to see people in the mainstream and social media doubling down, and using this to further their sanctimonious agendas. If they really wanted to look for answers to the crisis, they’d do more than wave a dismissive hand over the sphere, among… Read more »

Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

Will – “If you have spun girls what is the sign that she is safe to fall in love with or be in an LTR with?” Brother, wrong fuckin’ question. At least, for you right now. You could not be asking a more counterproductive question at this stage. Get out there, meet a whole bunch of women, hook up with a whole bunch of women, do not under any circumstances see them more than once a week for at least the first month MINIMUM. Create abundance in your social life, your dating life, your sex life. You won’t give as… Read more »

Mark Minter
7 years ago

A testimonial in support of Rational Male?I I am coming up on year 2. When I found this blog I was pissed, angry as a motherfucker, and I saw the shit I saw, but feeling alone and isolated in my views. I am not alone. There are many just like me. So now I know some shit. She is not the prize. I am. And for that I am a Threat. And the threat that this attitude could spread among men, that men see women at their true costs, that men cut through the nonsense of the Feminine Mystique, men… Read more »

Will
7 years ago

@Steve H:

I get all of that. But once al of that has been done, how will you know the right one to be with?

Such as Rollo’s wife.

I’m assuming she will make it veryyyyy clear. And I just haven’t experienced it to the degree/style yet.

Will
7 years ago

B/C Rollo says (and I agree with him) that LTR should be a byproduct to plate spinning. ….So the girl will make it clear I’m assuming? it’s hard not to analyze everything and for instance take it as a shit test when she brings it up ya know? Also if your career path involves a lot of moving (i.e. graduate school, work) then how the fuck do you keep up with all of this. Ideally I would love for my top “plate” to follow me but from what I;ve observed that DOES NOT happen. it used to (my mom and… Read more »

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

Will, Don’t force your alpha: don’t try to be an asshole. Get in the best shape you can, gain self-confidence in whatever you’re good at (video games and wacking to porn don’t count), relax, and let it happen naturally. If you achieve a 6, expect to bed 4’s and 5’s. Eventually, you’ll find yourself spending more time with one of these over the course of a year or two. Focus on the other aspects of your life and “love” will find you. Then reread Rollo’s book. Never think in terms of rape, emotional or otherwise. If you get your shit… Read more »

Will
Will
7 years ago

Thanks @rollo I’ll buy the book too. And one more thing I wanted a quick opinion on: Is taking a top ‘plate’ to really good seats at a pro hockey game a bad idea?? We got drunk had sex etc. but it’s been a long time of on off hooking up. Idk it almost felt like I outta the blue pedestalized her. And now it’s just radio silence like usual but it’s been a while so I’m wondering. did I fuck up? Next time I’m not doing shit and she can do the relationshipy stuff if she wants Quick thoughts?… Read more »

Class-Punk
7 years ago

Uncovering the Men’s Rights Movement, and later on MGTOW, I began to develop a better sense of frame without being familiar with the term– though another way to put it is I became more comfortable with being masculine; I didn’t get interested in the red pill PUA side of the men’s movement until later, and even felt acerbic towards them in relation to the few platonic relationships with women I care about enough to protect, and PUA’s shaming males, whether InCel, other PUA’s, or otherwise, without necessarily having a strong moral incentive for doing so, while simultaneously claiming to support… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

The beta game aspect, i.e. doing what would have worked better had Rodger been a woman, i.e. the First Set of Books problem, has not been sufficiently emphasized elsewhere. But then too his entire approach to women was womanly: Sleeping Beauty doesn’t even work well for women to employ with men, much less a man trying to be Sleeping Beauty to get women.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@bbb re: “gain self-confidence in whatever you’re good at”

Besides your examples actually a LOT of things don’t count towards success with women. Because playing to my strengths, hyperness, intelligence, volubility, nerdiniess, never helped, I can confidently state that only a very small subset of things “you’re good it” count with women. IOW, DON’T be yourself if you were not being successful with women. As much as possible do the exact opposite, which for the majority of betas DOES mean forcing the alpha directly towards jerk, at least until some success with women starts happening.

Eric
Eric
7 years ago

“A devoted girlfriend, and her sexual affections wouldn’t have steered his course any differently.” You think so? I’m still working my way through Rodger’s manifesto; I’m at page 101 now, or age 20. So far, it sounds to me it’s possible that had just 1 girl – and not necessarily one his idealized California blonde dream girls – given him intimate attention of the ‘girlfriend experience’ variety (hug onto his arm, head on his shoulder, light stroking of his face, etc), not necessarily including sex, that 1 data point alone might have instilled enough hope to pull him back from… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
Fred Flange, S.J.
7 years ago

I don’t see how any girl could have gotten through; she would be banging her head on a wall at best, and would rightly give up. Rodger was true narcissist enough to feel truly “entitled” to the hot blonde, who should have come to him and grovelled, per his manifesto. But even that would not have been enough. My bet: she would have had to follow a very specific script in his head, like Jack Nicholson’s “Carnal Knowledge” character who could only get hard if the hooker said her “women are bitches” lines absolutely the same each time. But Rodger… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
Fred Flange, S.J.
7 years ago

And oh yes: I saw the childhood picture CH had on his site. Man that kid had dead eyes. No soul in there. He was gone gone gone before he ever grew pubes. The indifference of his family surely didn’t help, either.

Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

Rollo – recommendation for a RM post with massive traffic potential:

“I need the MRA movement because…”

Eric
Eric
7 years ago

Fred, I see those parts, but there are also parts where he’s appreciative when someone simply reaches out to him. I wonder how much of the blown-up aggrandized narcissism he expressed in his manifesto and videos was actually a defense mechanism for his doubts and insecurity, like a kid who compensates for poor academic ability by acting out in class to establish some kind of control in his life. Given the self-awareness, self-criticism, and gratitude to others that Rodger shows at various points in his manifesto, I’m not fully convinced it was only his Barbie-and-Ken fantasy or bust. I’ll accept… Read more »

trevorphillips
trevorphillips
7 years ago

ive always been poor and thought i was ugly, i thought thats why i never got girls. if i was loaded and kinda good looking like this kid and still not getting any girls, man i wouldve been so confused and angry. the conditioning must of been so strong in this kid, maybe cus of the asbergers, he lapped up all the fembullshit and never questioned anything his whole life, until it was too late. its on the same level as someone finding out their religion is bullshit, look at the lenghts people go to to defend that ego-investment.

Gurney Halleck
Gurney Halleck
7 years ago

More NPR male bashing. This time giving platform to Arthur Chu.

http://www.npr.org/2014/05/30/317361633/jeopardy-champ-arthur-chu-on-nerds-entitlement-and-elliot-rodger

Jeremy
7 years ago

“I need the MRA movement because…”

“…it gives males who want to be professional victims a place to go and stop cluttering up the conversation about self-improvement first.”

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

@jf12 “DON’T be yourself if you were not being successful with women. As much as possible do the exact opposite, which for the majority of betas DOES mean forcing the alpha directly towards jerk, at least until some success with women starts happening.” A similar rendering would be to broaden one’s interests; be good at things you like that others might be interested in too. One isn’t turning a 180, one is becoming more dimensional. If current associates think one is more of a jerk because of a successful MAP, then one should strive to meet new people. And they… Read more »

Jay X
Jay X
7 years ago

For me, this website was pivotal. It made me see that criticising feminism did not mean I was scum, and that I had internalised many false beliefs about relationships and gender dynamics. I did a liberal arts degree and was constantly surrounded by radical feminists and people who jumped.on the “PC” bandwagon. I internalised it since during that period I had a housemate who was a very intense radical feminist who would control me with shaming tactics. I was scared of saying anything or doing anything that she wouldn’t like. In retrospect, i see she surrounded herself with betas but… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

Jay X, good comment, keep working on it. Probably like most of us men, you may lack a bit of confidence in the woman game, but are alphalpha in other areas. Work on those areas to build confidence in your beta areas. But more then anything else, start doing things in your life for yourself. Be selfish. You cannot be happy if you do not first fill yourself with worth. The trick is when you are secure in who you are and are overflowing with confidence and joy, then you will have excess to share with others. But if you… Read more »

Jay X
Jay X
7 years ago

“You will be a shallow pool that dries up quickly and has nothing to share or give to others.” That is so true. This was one of my problems- I was very eager to please and thought I was doing a good thing by putting my girlfriend’s interests above my own. It’s still hard to understand, because I always thought that’s what love was, and now I don’t really know what it is. But what I’ve noticed is that I gave and gave, hoping/expecting that when the time came it would be reciprocated, but it wasn’t. It sounds weird, but… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@bbb, re: “A similar rendering would be to broaden one’s interests; be good at things you like that others might be interested in too.”

I totally agree. Granted some things aren’t logically compatible, like bar hopping and taking church seriously, but one’s choices define one.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Jay X, re: “It sounds weird, but I’m trying to learn how to be selfish.”

Perfectly expressed. It is difficult when it doesn’t come Naturally, and it is a shame our culture had to come to this point.

“I tend to smile a lot when I’m feeling good, but worried that perhaps peoole see it as submissive or too agreeable.”

The smirk is the solution. Again, it will feel weird, but practice the jerk smirk until it feels more Natural.

Retrenched
Retrenched
7 years ago

I don’t think game would have saved Rodger. Game can cure celibacy, but not evil and madness. Sure, a knowledge of game probably would have gotten him laid, but what happens when his girlfriend dumps him for another guy? Chances are he would have snapped then anyway, or if not then, at some point down the road.

Besides, it’s not like a guy’s getting laid necessarily prevents him from committing crime; indeed, some of the most sexually successful men in the modern west are violent criminals.

Urban Meyer
Urban Meyer
7 years ago

I was directed to this site about six months ago, and I know that it has spared me from a lifetime of beta servitude. At 27, I no longer worry as I see friends get married wondering will I ever find “the one”. I also am confident the next 10 years will be better than the last 10 as I gain experience and SMV. Now I look to work on spinning plates because getting oneitis has been my biggest problem in the past. The recent post about the friend zone helped me with my current FWB. She asked me about… Read more »

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

@Eric: A little kindness goes a long way, don’t you find? I learned a long time ago that men need a woman who can handle them when they’re angry. Someone who wrote a manifesto that long needed desperately to be heard, don’t you think? Men are only human too, and they need to express themselves and long for understanding.

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

A little kindness does go a long way. A very long way. The vast majority of people can’t even remotely conceive of the level of suffering that goes with prolonged emotional and sexual isolation. An entire existence with the complete absence of touch and connection. It’s easy for them to judge. Anyone who’s had to live through that hell for any significant amount of time would never cast stones. It’s an inhuman existence that no one should ever wish on anyone on this planet. Nobody deserves to suffer that much. When you’ve gone years without basic human connection and bonding… Read more »

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

“Having girls be more sympathetic to guys is not going to help when they still don’t want to fuck them — the sexual rejection will trigger the same abandonment and rejection rage and hopelessness that drives people to suicide and murder.” I wonder if this was part of the purpose of courtly love. Perhaps the knight got emotional fulfillment from the older, married woman as she appreciated his service. He couldn’t feel rejected because she was already married. But he learned enough about women from her to have his needs met in his own later relationship. Maybe not part of… Read more »

Eric
Eric
7 years ago

I don’t think one instance of feminine affection would have cured him. But could one contrary data point have given him enough hope to hang on? p 119: “If only one pretty girl had shown some form of attraction to me, the Day of Retribution would never happen. I’d never even consider it. The Day of Retribution is mainly my war against women for rejecting me and depriving me of sex and love. If only one girl had given me a chance, tried to get to know me, let me take her out on a date… None of this would… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Softek ahoots and scores again! “Learning Game is the hardest for the people who need it the most.”

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Thought for the week (and it’s early Monday morning): Having girls be more sympathetic to guys WOULD help if women were ACTUALLY sympathetic. The ACTUAL sympathetic response to a thirsty man is giving him drink. The ACTUAL sympathetic response to a sexually deprived man is ensuring he gets sex.

What happens, instead, is always a complete lack of sympathy for undesired men. Women will always say, of those men, “Sex isn’t a need” etc. for the purpose of disrespecting those men’s sex drives.

Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

@Jeremy – I keep hearing that distinction about MRAs, but I’ve seen little of it. But I haven’t been around these spaces as long as you. However I think there’s enough unity of purpose between them and MGTOWs and ‘masculinists’ to galvanize forces at a time like now, while of course not attempting to stem brisk dissent among men of differing views. Paul Elam and his crew are definitely fighting the good fight for many who post here and have been burned by NFD et al, even if they don’t know it.

chris
chris
7 years ago

The left champion their own version of red-pillery about female’s sexual nature;

i.e.

Sex At Dawn
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Modern-Relationships/dp/0061707813

What Do Women Want?: Adventures in the Science of Female Desire
http://www.amazon.com/What-Do-Women-Want-Adventures/dp/0061906085
http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/truth-about-female-desire-its-base-animalistic-and-ravenous?paging=off

Interesting don’t you think, that no one on the left attached Elliot Rodger’s political ideology to these leftwing books about female sexual nature? As such a link can easily be made.

chris
chris
7 years ago

Combine this with the fact that he was decidely anti-PUA, it can easily be argued that his actions were inspired by feminist-kumbaya-matriarchal/matrilinial-promiscuous sexual utopia where women mate with men purely for their genetic quality and their husbands still provide for/paternally invest in them to a high degree regardless of their cuckolding of them.

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Steve …Paul Elam and his crew are definitely fighting the good fight for many who post here and have been burned by NFD et al, even if they don’t know it. Paul Elam and his MHRA are fighting the good fight with nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. They’re using tools that do not enhance harmony between the sexes, but rather will only increase the antagonism. Their intentions are fine, yet their methods are deliberately wasteland inducing. Their behavior will come back to haunt them and other men in the decades to come. They refuse to see this, and because of… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Question for the more experienced here: Do women enjoy being friend-zoned themselves? Do women LIKE to pursue a man who is just trying to be friends with her?

Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

@Jeremy – OK, I appreciate that perspective and clarification. Two followup questions I have: 1) “They’re using tools that do not enhance harmony between the sexes, but rather will only increase the antagonism.” Isn’t that what Susan Walsh accuses Rollo of – that in her words, he’s a ‘dark triad male’ who ‘wants to shut down communication between the sexes’? 2) Also, I was pleased to see Rollo stridently fighting the good fight all over the ‘Sphere last week, launching reframes and counter-accusations – very much on the attack. I also learned of the AVFM conference death threats from him.… Read more »

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

I can’t believe I did this, but I spent yesterday reading Elliot’s manifesto, watching his videos, and scanning some of the fallout. When children only experience instant gratification, are constantly made to believe that they are superior to others, only have playdates, fail at school, get lost for months within World of Warcraft (or what have you) – all enabled by a successful series of tantrums – the resultant male adolescent will lack the modicum of game necessary to get laid. And it doesn’t matter how good looking he thinks he is or well off he seems to be. All… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@bbb, re: “If he were a woman, that strategy, unfortunately for humankind, would often have worked.”

Yes! That is the point I’ve been trying to make: Rodger acted like a *woman*, but the media are portraying this as being typical of men.

Mansa Sundiata
Mansa Sundiata
7 years ago

@if12 You make an interesting point. Most boys now a days act like women because they are trained to believe that is the correct way to act. The men in their lives are either gone or too impotent to effect positive change in the youngsters. So they either find another male role model and copy them or sty stuck with the brainwashing. I wonder do you guys think it would be possible to spread the knowledge of game to kids/teens in a widespread way like an after school program or a summer camp? That would fix alot of these issues… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Steve H Isn’t that what Susan Walsh accuses Rollo of – that in her words, he’s a ‘dark triad male’ who ‘wants to shut down communication between the sexes’? If Susan Walsh said that, she likely spent as much time as her ego-invesment allowed her to in reviewing the truths contained in Rollo’s blog. Many many women do this, because Rollo’s blog reveals more truths that are uncomfortable to women than men. It’s a true reflection of the motivations of the female, and most women will deny deny deny and accuse those reflecting those truths of anything to shut down… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

@bbb I can’t believe I did this, but I spent yesterday reading Elliot’s manifesto… I haven’t, I’ve let the blogosphere endure that pain for me. However, what I have read/heard directly quoted from it has altered my perception of the situation some. I still think that game could have saved his life. However, that instruction in game should have come from his father and should have started before he was 12 years old. This kid was raised in the environment of Hollywood, where the men get female attention by default, and his father was basically entirely absent. On top of… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

I have to say, my dad and my mentor have been two very powerful male influences in my life. Some of the most secure and well adjusted men I’ve ever met. Both my dad and my mentor are very successful in their own ways, they both live exactly the way they want, and in some ways they’re like kids — free spirited and more or less oblivious to what other people think of them because they’re too concerned with living their own lives. I used to play tons of videogames to cope. And go on porn and jerk off all… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

…because it dispels the magic, it defeats the strategy – assuming a man accepts it. It hits too close to home for women like Aunt Sue to have her own machinations explained back to her…

What am I supposed to take from the notion that women cannot stand men knowing their “strategy”, while male “strategy” is as overt as overt gets? How am I not supposed to take that as a sign of immaturity?

Eric
Eric
7 years ago

I’m MGTOW focused on positive masculinity. I very much appreciate PUA/Game, which teaches a critical, baseline praxeology. I’m neither religious nor a social activist, but I support the Christian red pill and MRM in principle. I learn from them as well. There is a cup half-full vs cup half-empty way of viewing the diverse strains and sub-strains of the Manosphere. I prefer to view the cup as half full. To me, the Manosphere is a vibrant bazaar/convention/marketplace of masculine improvement resources to shop in. That we can turn a corner and find unexpected ideas and knowledge, some enlightening, some repulsive,… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Rollo, re: “At one point in their conversation she says, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!” I agree with the spate of comments complimenting your writing as especially helpful in understanding the world around us, especially as pertains to women’s sexual motivations. Probably you experience some criticisms of much of what you say as being repetitive, but it’s a true thing that repetition is the key to learning. Also true that a deep diver will *correctly* report a lot of the same stuff semi-repetitively”There’s a lot of water, and it’s getting murkier, but here’s something …” no matter where he… Read more »

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

“Question for the more experienced here: Do women enjoy being friend-zoned themselves? Do women LIKE to pursue a man who is just trying to be friends with her?” If you’re not interested in someone, it might prick a little if they friend-zone you first, but, basically its a wash- no hurt feelings either way. If you’re interested in them and they friend-zone you, then you’ll have some hurt feelings, especially if they gave you very strong signals that they did like you more than in a friendly way. Bottom line though, pursuing someone who says they just want to be… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Kate, re: “What women really want is a man they’re interested in demanding exclusivity.” Well said in a kernelized way. The problem for the woman, of course, is that the man she’s interested in could not care less what she really wants, because he has options that she knows of, and others that she does not know. The reason I asked is because one of the major themes for over a month has been the genders tending to act like they want the other gender to act: women becoming bossy, for example, and men becoming mollifying. So it stands to… Read more »

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

” by friend-zoning men the women may be projecting their own desire to be friend-zoned.” I don’t understand what you’re saying here. What do you mean? That she thinks it’d be a successful strategy to friend-zone men because it makes her go into chase mode when it happens to her? I think in some cases women friend-zone men because they don’t want to lead them on. If there isn’t some sort of feeling early on, she wants to nip it in the bud. It could be used as a test though: to gauge his thoughts/feelings, etc. Or even just as… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Kate, I don’t think women think about this stuff at all, it’s just automatic.

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

@Jf12: Yeah, I think everything is pretty much on an instinctual level, but you can become aware of what you’re doing. Something I think would have helped E.R. would have been to realize that probably the vast majority of his rejections weren’t personal at all. A woman has one of three reactions to a man. Rejection = “I don’t want to get pregnant.” And acceptance ranges from “If I got pregnant, I wouldn’t mind” to “I *want* to have your baby.” Maybe that sounds absurdly reductionist, but underneath it all, sometimes the hostility women show towards men is a protective… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

Are we to regard all women as somewhat mediocre magicians who will do anything to keep men from looking behind the curtain? Doesn’t it say that if your strategy cannot accept exposure, when your rival’s strategy is open-literature, then your position is weaker than you would let on?

Zen
Zen
7 years ago

I discovered the red pill mindset completely on accident, at a time when I was dissatisfied with all aspects of my life and not just my lack of a meaningful sex life. This site in particular has been one of my favorites as it breaks things down in a philosophical way. However, it is way too easy to get bogged down in all the terms and acronyms when discussing the dating scene or sexual marketplace or whatever else one chooses to call the more intimate social aspects of life. The fact that I’ve been a reader for almost a year… Read more »

Stuttie
7 years ago

@ Zen I’m sure some more red-pill qualified & experienced Men will offer you better advice (as a 22 y/o) than I, however I’m compelled to at least give you my thoughts – as I have only recently unplugged and now navigating a brand new SMP as a single father at 42. First though, I’m not sure how much of Rollo you have actually digested, but I think you could re-read a few posts (The 2nd set of books and Anger Management) for starters. Hell, even all Year 1 & 2 just to take it all in again. But, I… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Zen, I’m seconding Stuttie. Advice to move forward: approach. Approach, approach, approach. Your complaint boils down to this, essentially: you feel you don’t want to approach, because it feels difficult and unusual and scary and sad and it hurts, so you want to know some trick to feeling like wanting to approach. But sorry, there is no trick. True that the Thirst ought to be enough to drive you to try *something*, but if you are shying away from approaching then you simply have to, have to, approach. As everyone would say, especially to those to whom you say “you… Read more »

Jay X
Jay X
7 years ago

@Rollo “I worry that guys like Elam (and Roosh to a lesser extent) will be the public face of the manosphere as it receives more notoriety. ” This is why we need your unique voice. I refuse to link to any other site to represents the manosphere, simply because I have not found a site that approaches these questions with such composure. I have given therationalmale to some intense feminists, and they really have not much to say in response. You do not post click-bait, but anyone can see that Roosh’s stuff is exactly that. It does more harm than… Read more »

cryo
7 years ago

“My only criticism, and I hope you will listen to this, is that you do not base your theories on established psychological or sociological research. This is the only criticism of your work from people I have linked it to that I cannot disagree with. It’s largely conjectural.”

This is a fine point. Though men with common sense will see the truth in your words, the weaselly academic type will scoff at the lack of corroborative research. It can only help your case, really.

cryo
7 years ago

“I feel like there is an inverse of that where the unsuccessful get so used to things not going their way that attempting relationships is what feels abnormal and being alone is the norm. In many ways social stamina is like a muscle and it atrophies without use. This is one of the big hurdles I’ve faced as I’ve become quite the shut-in since high school and even being in a crowded grocery store saps my energy quickly. Adding in the bar scene or pick-up just feels out of reach. It’s a frustrating problem that I haven’t really found any… Read more »

Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

Zen – it is work. It is a more than a job, it’s not enough to just show up. It is being disciplined day in and day out. You have to keep pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Every time you step out of your comfort zone, and experience awkwardness or adversity or get blown off by some girl you tried to engage in conversation – THAT is a step in the right direction. Every time you could go out, but choose to stay in and watch tv/porn/gaming, that’s the only thing that will prevent you from going forward.… Read more »

Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

Re: Rollo’s ‘lack of academic-industrial-complex-endorsed empirical corroboration’ – I see Rollo reaching out to Martie Haselton, who is employed at UCLA. That place is about as ‘Cathedral’ as it gets. Some other ideas for Cathedral-endorsed academics whose published works might jive well with Rollo’s philosophical essays and charts etc – Abraham Maslow, early Wayne Dyer (NYU), B.F. Skinner, Ivan Pavlov…I know that mentioning these infamous names is hardly informing Rollo of stuff he doesn’t already know, but maybe we get the ball rolling in that direction and brainstorm further (if it’s a sticking point wrt wider acceptance of his work).… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@ Zen As a fellow virgin, I’ll say this: abandoning the mentality of being a virgin is essential. I tell myself this: “Even if I *wasn’t* a virgin, I’d still want sex right now.” What matters is what you want right now in this moment. What do guys who’ve had a lot of sex have, if they aren’t having sex right now? Options. It’s their mentality. It doesn’t matter what needs were or weren’t met in the past, because the past doesn’t exist. It isn’t real. It happened and it’s over. All that exists is what you hold about your… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

I still think Rodger’s problem was his taking a *woman*’s approach to life: show up and be pretty. And I think that that particular problem was pushed on him by the influential women in his life, notably his caregivers: his mother, his grandmother, his stepmother, and his babysitter. Probably the world will never know exactly why he wanted to act like a *woman* in his life, but I think once you see that that is how he acted then you have to acknowledge it.

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

I was surprised Futrelle was so ill-spoken, myself. He sounded unprepared. I do think he could hold a civil discussion with a more moderate representative of the Manosphere though. That might be the meeting ground. Don’t get involved with his commenters though. They are emotionally fragile.

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

Well, call me an optimist 🙂

M Simon
7 years ago

I always recommend three years in an outlaw MC gang to betas wanting to become alphas.

M Simon
7 years ago

And I ought to add that if you are not at least an incipient alpha you are not going to get in.

M Simon
7 years ago

“Rodger couldn’t believe that his BMW, his nice clothes, first class jet setting lifestyle, and his money couldn’t get him laid.” My dad bought me a convertible my senior year in high school to improve my chances with the opposite sex. It wasn’t until I learned game (from my first girlfriend no less) that I became successful with the ladies. That was back in ’62 when game – as a serious subject of study – was unknown. She did dump me for some one else – what else is new? – but not before she had headed me in the… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

I read “redpill rules” and at first saw “reptile rules”. That may not be so far off.

M Simon
7 years ago

Rollo. Your brilliant work has got me back in the gym. Eating clean. Dressing sharp….

None of that matters (much). Attitude is 10,000X more important.

Eric
Eric
7 years ago

Rollo, NPR commenter: “I think the manosphere jargon wont resonate with the college educated 25 to 45 demo.” Despite claiming to be a fan, the NPR commenter seems to assume the faulty premise that the Manosphere is an outgrowth of frat boys and proles. That’s not right. “College educated 25 to 45” plus male plus add 5 years on both ends strikes me as the core demographic of the Manosphere. Why? Because we’re the ones who’ve been most indoctrinated in the blue pill and alienated from our essential masculinity, and reacting to the alienation with the critical faculties of the… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Why? Because we’re the ones who’ve been most indoctrinated in the blue pill and alienated from our essential masculinity, and reacting to the alienation with the critical faculties of the Manosphere.

The Blue Pill regime is not something new. It was going on in the 50s. Just not so organized. Think “romance movies”. Everything I knew about women I learned from romance movies. – it didn’t work. Then my first girlfriend, Joan, set me straight. In 1962.

LiveFearless
7 years ago

@Rollo That’s a lot for anyone unfamiliar to really grasp with any depth, especially when their ‘investigations’ need to be easily interpreted by an 8th grade reading level and attention span Make that fifth grade reading level with the unchangeable belief that if a famous or familiar source says it (or allows it on air), It is true. The message will fail as long as the messengers choose ignore the fact that ALL content that reaches the majority of people receives unlimited funding (like this): http://bit.ly/1rJqeal It sounds organic, like it’s just another radio listener calling in, but note how… Read more »

Stuttie
7 years ago

@ Zen Rollo makes a topic-relevant point in his post ‘Reality vs The Internet’. “All the tools a guy will have at his disposal to practice don’t amount to much if he doesn’t understand why those tools work in the first place. Similarly all the theory in the world is useless until you develop an application of it by trial and error.” Stay with me here. As a cricket player we refer to a batsman getting his first run as “getting off the mark”. As such, the bowling side puts a lot of extra pressure on the batsman to not… Read more »

Stuttie
7 years ago

@ Softek You make an interesting point – “A guy that’s gotten laid plenty of times in his life who hasn’t had sex for a while will want to have sex as much as you want to have it. It’s just that he doesn’t have the mental baggage of believing that sex is impossible to get and that he has no way of getting it. He doesn’t freak himself out about it.” Wow man, this applies to me right now. I was spinning a couple of plates but now find myself with none. It’s been a month and I’ve probably… Read more »

Zen
Zen
7 years ago

Wow, I wasn’t expecting so many direct responses to my post but I appreciate it all the same. Some responses: @Stuttie – I would say I’ve read quite a bit of Rollo’s work, although I haven’t gone back and reviewed every archived piece. The point you bring up about my use of the word meaningful is interesting and illustrates the cognitive dissonance I’m going through when trying to figure out what I even want. Casual sex… relationships, I don’t have a reference to know how much intimacy I even want in my life. I’ve read plenty on PUA tactics. Advice… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@ Zen I’m a very good guitarist, have been playing 11 years, and have only played out a handful of times. Every single time the crowd went nuts. But stage fright and general anxiety took over and I stopped playing out. Never did it regularly, and even though I’ve always wanted to start a band, I stuck to solo performances. Even now as I’m getting back into playing I can only think of recording an album on my own. It would be great, and I’d love it, but there’s a part of me that really wants to play music with… Read more »

Eric
Eric
7 years ago

Zen: “I agree that there is a misguided notion that the manosphere as a whole is directed at bottom rung people to pull them from the depths.” The Manosphere isn’t not for them, either. They are acknowledged. It’s just that men on the “bottom rung” often have a deeper handicap to overcome in addition to the normal range of issues. For them, the Manosphere provides essential parts of the answer, but not the whole necessary solution. As such, the Manosphere isn’t providing them the wrong answer. The answer is right, just short of prerequisite parts. As Softek points out, these… Read more »

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

@ Eric “Elliot Rodger wasn’t wrong that his looks, background, clothing style, world travelling, car, etc, should have been attractive. They at least weren’t negative qualities. At the same time, he repeatedly pointed out his life-consuming social anxiety, especially his inability to approach girls. Rodger was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He was also born with an iron chain on his ankle.”

Well said.

diabolicalsouthpaw
7 years ago

Watching this dynamic in action on the NBA finals half time show at this very moment.

The whole thing’s scripted but the woman’s part just ‘feels’ so contrived. FI writ large on mass media, go figure.

Can’t say I’m surprised to see mass media bitching out….more cheerleaders, less talk.

Richard
Richard
7 years ago

you missed a very important point Rollo… the beta PUA hate kinda guys, fail with game, but at the same time they are to some degree disgusted (as many players are), with the fact that women have become such outright whores…. the romance is lost in favor of a few shots and a fuck in the rest rooms…. not all men want that, not all men want ONS and bed hopping and sex on the first date….. in the same way that not all men want to scoff drive through fast food in the passengers seat of their car….. i… Read more »

Richard
Richard
7 years ago

@ Softek – get a grip on yourself man… it’s easier said than done sure… but at one point or another you have to accept that fact that no one really gives a fuck about you…. so you have to take the same attitude…. this might sound strange i know, but essentially – just stop caring…. embrace the dark shadow that’s hanging over you…. find it and absorb it…. get out there and do something with yourself… anything and just get on with it… no one really cares that much …. no one is going to bite you for trying….… Read more »

Jay X
Jay X
7 years ago

@Rollo “I actually cite many sociological and psychological studies in my book and my posts” I’ve read pretty much everything you have written on here, including your book, very rarely is there a source. Your book has no reference section or footnotes. I just went through all of Best of Year One and couldn’t find a single link or reference to an established study published in a peer reviewed journal. A couple of established theories were referenced like Social Matching Theory and Stockholm syndrome, and you briefly mentioned Dr Martie Hasselton, but that’s it. I think it’s better to have… Read more »

Emerald Curtain
Emerald Curtain
7 years ago

This is my first time posting here on RM, I know my comment will be TL:DR for most but I’d really like to get this off my chest. I’ve been catching up slowly on your material Rollo- I was reading through ‘Casualties’ when the news from Isla Vista broke. To be honest with myself, with the wrong brain chemicals when I was younger, I also could’ve ended up in the same dark self-imposed vacuum of hate as Elliot. Finding blogs like yours hasn’t ‘saved’ my life necessarily, but it’s brought incredible relief with the clarity you offer. An opportunity to… Read more »

Pre-Retiree
Pre-Retiree
7 years ago

“Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader like bbb experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife.” 62 year old here. I happened across your blog because I googled something similar to the above sentence. I’ve been married for 35 years and I love my wife but we’re not in love the way we used to be. To be blunt I’m not nearly as sexually attracted to her as I was just 5 years ago even. She’s fit and attractive enough for her age, and I… Read more »

JenkPac Shakur
JenkPac Shakur
7 years ago

Elliot Rodger didn’t do what he did out of a feeling of entitlement…at least not consciously…he was simply operating on a mentality he was programmed with by liberal egalitarians and feminists growing up which says if you dress nice, act nice (in a wussy wimpy beta male chivalrous sense) and be a productive go getter type women will naturally swoon over you and give themselves to you. Elliot believed their bullshit and it backfired on him and now the feminists and liberals are crying that he was “entitled” when it was they who gave him this mindset of entitlement to… Read more »

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[…] Rationale Male, married and himself a sometime-critic of  PickUp Artist seminar and DVD pimps,  recently discussed where his approach differs against the backdrop of the Rodger […]

alcheringa
alcheringa
7 years ago

You have your own wave lengths, powerful and disruptive.

Oh…… the transitory nature of human affairs.

You are gems, each and every one of you.

insanitybytes22
4 years ago

“IB is willfully ignorant which is why she’ll never read or acknowledge that post. It’s more comforting to persist in her delusions because it’s a catharsis for her otherwise meaningless existence.”

Apparently you are incorrect about the fact that IB will never “read and acknowledge this post.” Given that truth, is it possible you could be wrong about a couple of other things,too?

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[…] in the summer of 2014 I wrote two essays outlining the minds of Incels. The first was The Severing and the second was Owed Sex. I wrote these essays in the wake of the Eliot Rodger shooting and the […]

trackback
3 years ago

[…] in the summer of 2014 I wrote two essays outlining the minds of Incels. The first was The Severing and the second was Owed Sex. I wrote these essays in the wake of the Eliot Rodger shooting and the […]

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