The Severing

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I’m not really sure where to begin with the killings in Santa Barbara.

About 6 years ago my niece attended UCSB and I became peripherally aware of the social landscape there from what she’d relate either to the family or via FaceBook. It wasn’t really anything less than I’d expect from a notorious ‘party school’ populated by the kids of affluent families – beautiful people, beautiful environment and all the displays of conspicuous consumption you’d probably expect. And it would be the perfect hell for a guy like Eliot Rodger.

Until now I’ve tactically avoided throwing my hat in the ring about this incident because I know the dangers inherent in going off half-cocked about a developing story. If you’re looking for details and information about how this kid evolved into what he was I’ll refer you to Heartiste’s, RoK’s and JustFourGuys breakdown of it. That said I’m going to tap out a few of my own personal thoughts about the kid and the social impact of not just how he came to be, but also what you can expect from a feminine-primary media.

PUAHate

As I’m sure most of the primary manosphere sites have, the members of the PUAHate forum found select posts at Rational Male as a particular targets of their vitriol. When I initially became aware of the forum (via link backs) it was due to their being very publicly linked to the Manboobz blog (now We Hunted the Mammoth).

After perusing the forum for a bit I wrote it off as a collection of guys commiserating about their shared social disenfranchisement and, not to be too blunt, but their shared lack of social intelligence. That these guys were angry with the manosphere was pretty much a given. For the most, they fit a particular personality pattern that’s characteristic of boys / men looking for an easy solution to their social ostracization and noted rejection from female intimacy.

I know the personality well since these types of guys are usually the first to email/PM me for advice for the easiest path between where they are now and where they want to be. They initially believe that Game / red pill awareness / PUA techniques are the panacea they’re looking for to cure their largely sexless and lonely existences.

When, due to their functional autism, Asperger’s syndrome or simply a social awkwardness, they find that the only thing that posed to be a ‘plan’ to help them “get their girl” doesn’t work the way they’d hoped, the reaction is a hostile rejection of what they believe ‘promised’ them the results of curing their sexless state.

To compound things the same PUAs they sought help from, become caricatures of the men who are successfully hooking up with the girls they wanted really nothing more than to be a loyal boyfriend to. They resort back to the only thing they knew, Beta Gameidentify and qualify with women – only now they not only reinvest themselves in it they want to become activists against any form of Game that isn’t what they believe women should respond to.

I don’t have any corroboration of it, but my guess is that a guy like Eliot would’ve made the ridicule list for the now defunct Tumblr “Nice Guys of OKCupid“. I’d suggest reading that post as a primer for anyone wanting to get a better grasp of how this personality type thinks and is ridiculed for.

The PUAs they’d hoped would let them in on the ‘secret’ to a woman’s intimacy, are revealed to them as the charlatan Bad Boy, ‘Alpha males’ they’ve always resented, who they believe mock them with every successful lay they manage.

What’s worse, what fuels their PUAHate activism, is that they ever believed their ‘enemy’ would reveal a way to become like they are. I bring up this observation from experience. I’ve had more than a few of these kinds of guys hit me up, not for advice, but a specific plan that will lead them to some kind of relief from their condition.

Descriptions and Prescriptions

In Preventative Medicine IV a commenter (who, for the record is not an InCel by any stretch) asked me why I had no real prescriptive plan for men to follow with regards to ‘preventing’ or avoiding the bad decisions associated with the time line I laid out in that series. This was my response:

Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader like bbb experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it (in fact I have a post in the can about menopause) but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts.

From my earliest posts at SoSuave I’ve had men ask me for some ‘medicine’ for their condition; some personalized plan that will work for them. This sentiment is exactly what makes PUA and manosphere ‘self-help’ speakers sell DVDs and seats at seminars. They claim to have the cure. I say that’s bullshit.

I’m not in the business of cures, I’m in the business of diagnoses. Imagine David D’ Angelo, the “new” Tucker Max or Tyler Durden attempting to force fit their plans to accommodate bbb’s situation. Athol Kay makes attempts to remedy married men’s (non) sex lives, but what’s his real success rate? Is it even measurable? Even Athol recognizes that his MMSL outline is just a map, a diagnosis, that men have to modify for themselves per their individual experience and demographic. You see, your cure, your plan of action isn’t what bbb’s will be, or your future son’s, or anyone else reading my work. I can give you a map, but you still have to make your own trail. I’m not a savior, you are your savior

Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.

What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads a man to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for his better understanding and he creates his own success with it?

Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.

Most men already know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they actually have the keys.

My approach to Game is defined in much broader terms than simply ‘how to get girls’, and I think for the better part of the manosphere the understanding of Game has evolved beyond rote memorization of scripts and plans. It’s gotten to a stage where even the most enthusiastic proponents of PUA techniques acknowledge a need for an individualized approach to relating and interacting with women based on a broader applied understanding of feminine psychology, sociology and the particular conditions that apply to themselves as well as the women they’re interacting with.

It’s been noted before, my approach to Game is descriptive, not prescriptive.

What’s Next?

In the next month or so I expect there will be a lot of armchair psychologists making their best attempt to suss out what Eliot’s killings represent without ever really having experienced in any depth the mental schemas of minds like his. A fem-centric media and society will want its easy, binary answers and I suspect they’ll get no less in passing Eliot’s neurosis off on whatever conveniently fits the narrative that makes for the easiest to swallow and move on.

Right now I expect that’s going to be the manosphere, but Eliot wasn’t our monster, he was the product of his own psychosis and his neurotic belief in the First Set of Books. Eliot was a more violent version of what happens when socially maladaptive men root themselves in a transactional, reciprocal, model of what would solve his loneliness, sexual frustration and desperation.

Eliot and those of his mindset believed that everyone ought to be playing by the set of rules he was conditioned to believe everyone else was playing by and he dutifully subscribed to. They want a prescription, not a painful, ego destroying description.

Under those rules, he embodied his own definition of an Alpha – the guy who played it right and would be gratefully appreciated by any normal person adhering to the way things should be. But he couldn’t come to terms with the fact that everyone else wasn’t playing by that rule set, and he wouldn’t be rewarded for his self-righteous dedication to his conditioning with sex or justice or even basic human interaction. Six people died because he couldn’t come to terms with the fact that much of the opposite of what that conditioning taught him was what he saw was being rewarded.

Would a better grasp of Game have changed Eliot’s mind? I doubt it.

That’s not an indictment of Game or red pill awareness, but rather an understanding of the mindset he developed. I know the obsessiveness of the kind of guy Eliot was. A devoted girlfriend, and her sexual affections wouldn’t have steered his course any differently.

His hate required his destitution, and vice versa. That hate wasn’t about women or misogyny, or Alpha jocks getting after it with the girls he wanted, or even PUAs selling him a new set of rules he couldn’t stomach; his hate was about his inability to reconcile his ego with the ugly realities that a brief exposure to red pill truths revealed to him.

Game saves lives, and not just the lives of the person awakening to a red pill awareness. I know this firsthand from twelve years of private email testimonials and heartbreaking confessions.

Game saves lives, particularly in an era where hypergamy and the new gender paradigm, established since the sexual revolution, ruthlessly selects-out men who might otherwise expect to be considered intimately acceptable by their dedication and adherence to the set of beliefs their feminized conditioning has promised them would be their reward – but the men who need it most have to come to terms with the pain, remorse and resentment of having ever needed to cut themselves away from their prior system belief.

That severance from their conditioned ego-investment is a test that will either prompt them to see the old system for what it was and adapt, or simply put a gun to their head (or the heads of others beforehand).

It is very difficult to make men aware of Game, but the acceptance of it is more difficult when it challenges a man’s sense of self that’s been literally built upon the belief that the system he’s cut himself away from was part of who he really is.

The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill

The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t make truth hurt any less, nor does it make truth any prettier, and it certainly doesn’t absolve you of the responsibilities that truth requires. One of the biggest obstacles guys face in unplugging is accepting the hard truths that Game forces upon them. Among these is bearing the burden of realizing what you’ve been conditioned to believe for so long were comfortable ideals and loving expectations are really liabilities. Call them lies if you want, but there’s a certain hopeless nihilism that accompanies categorizing what really amounts to a system that you are now cut away from. It is not that you’re hopeless, it’s that you lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.

As an end note here I think in the coming weeks there will be a greater scrutiny placed on Game and the manosphere in general. There will undoubtedly be more back and forth about the how’s and why’s of Eliot’s killings, and I sincerely doubt all the effort expended to prove that this kid was an antisocial, psychotic and really needed the unplugging an acceptance of Game would’ve benefitted him with. You simply wont teach those unwilling to learn.

However, as always, my comment thread here will be unmoderated for those who want to offer their take on all this. I would ask though that if you have a personal testimonial about how Game, or The Rational Male (book or blog) or any other manosphere writer, or idea / experience changed the course of your life, please considering leaving it here for the benefit of others. Nothing is TL;DR as far as I’m concerned.

As I mentioned earlier, I have an email ‘save’ box reserved for inspirational emails I receive from readers. Many of these are confessionals about aborted suicide attempts due in part or whole to something I wrote or caused some man to rethink. I wouldn’t dream of breaking any man’s confidence by copy and pasting them into a blog post, but if you have some experience you comfortable with sharing in the comments I’d encourage you to do so during this time.

Thank you.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

206 comments on “The Severing

  1. @ Steve H and eon:

    Thanks for the support and advice. I’ve been having a lot of ups and downs lately although I’m staying the course with working out and taking care of myself by keeping a good diet. I have a lot of other ambitions and hobbies and tons of things to spend my time on — never a dull moment in my day.

    I’ve just lost focus on all of them because of the loneliness. So my priority lately on top of taking physical care of my body has been focusing on taking care of my mind and emotions, and healing myself and changing myself from the inside out.

    Anyway:

    I’ve already seen a couple posts come up on Facebook by girls, most likely inspired by Eliot Rodger’s massacre. One of them was making fun of MRA and plenty of girls and guys chimed in to commiserate about how horrible and stupid and immature and ridiculous it is…and how “beating, hating and oppressing women won’t solve anything” (because obviously, that’s what MRA is about).

    The other was about the “Friendzone.” And God forbid you say one word about men not owing women ‘friendship’ just because they’re a special snowflake any more than women owe men sex just because they’re Really Nice Guys.

    But the ‘special snowflake’ and ‘really nice guy’ are very bitter words. No bitterness is required. The best way to approach it is respecting your needs and not letting people take advantage of you. If you want a sexual relationship with a girl, whether it’s FWB or an LTR, go for it. And if you get the hint that a girl isn’t interested in either of those, let it go and move on. Why waste your time?

    And it isn’t anything personal — it’s your time, and you’re entitled to spend it the way you want to. Is having sexual needs wrong? Is not wanting to spend time with people you don’t really enjoy spending time with, for whatever reason, wrong? Of course not.

    My sister told me some guy stopped talking to her completely when she said she wasn’t interested in him. Didn’t want to be friends with her or anything. I was like….yeah? Okay? What’s so wrong with that? She said it like it was some big thing, like he was such a jerk because he didn’t want to be her friend despite her not being sexually attracted to him. Like he…*GASP*….owed it to her!

    That’s the problem. It’s a double standard, like everything else in feminism. Women are entitled to free handouts, and anyone who challenges their entitlement to those handouts, whether it’s taxpayer money or AFC’s infinite well of emotional support and validation and compliments…for shame!! Shame, shame, shame on you!!!! Shaaaaaame!!

    Give me a break. At this point I’m really feeling like the best response is to just roll your eyes and let it go. Unless you’re actively trying to make an argument in a context that’s actually worth making an argument (i.e., pick your battles)…it isn’t worth any of your energy to get upset over this stuff. It would be better spent on healing yourself, loving yourself, respecting yourself, and thinking of ways to get more of what you want out of life that you would really enjoy.

    I just want to let it go. The bantering masses going back and forth about feminist this, judgment that, casting stones here and there — they don’t really want to understand the real issues. They have no interest in that. It’s just entertainment to them. It’s not very good entertainment to just hate and rag on people and banter back and forth without solving any problems, but some people enjoy that.

    Usually looking at stuff like that would get me so worked up, I’d be thinking, “You fucking morons! Idiots! All of you!!” I could get so worked up and feel so angry I could feel like I was going to have a heart attack.

    Lately I’ve just been stepping back and thinking, “You really like feeling upset and angry and hating people so much, huh? You must really like feeling that way because it’s all you’re talking and thinking about. Personally, I don’t enjoy feeling like that. I like feeling good and having fun. That’s interesting!”

  2. Someone once asked Joseph Smith (founder of the mormon church) how he was able to govern so many people. His response:

    “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

    I see it applying here. If you have to ask someone about every little situation you’re never going to get anywhere. When you learn math you can’t have a tutor show you how to work every individual problem. You have to learn the basic principles, true principles, and then you have to apply it yourself and learn from your own mistakes.

  3. I am 1 year post game awareness/learning. I became aware after a really rough blind side LTR break up. I’m still young though, 23 yrs old.

    I will say that all of this “red pill” online is addicting and I’ve found myself obsessing over it and analyzing too much–almost getting trapped in my head (which clearly happened to Rogers but in an unproductive way I guess).

    “Red Pill” has IN FACT brought to light the areas that I FUCKED up in my LTR. I literally had no idea how to not be “beta”.

    I think “red pill” isn’t as important as some people delve into it to be (such as analyzing every little freaking detail) b/c it can only go so far. BUT every bit helps even a little just with every aspect of life. I will say though the most important thing for LTRS that would’ve “saved” me from being pushed away was: not holding frame and falling off the deep-end with the girl. (such as “omg no I love you so much I can’t go on without you). Retarded people who don’t know what game or red pill is do that (we all know now not to do that ha).

    THE HARDEST THING FOR ME TO FIGURE OUT IN MY STAGE RIGHT NOW:

    Plate Theory.

    If you have spun girls what is the sign that she is safe to fall in love with or be in an LTR with? like ROLLO, how did you know to get married with your wife.

    Do you not get serious with “party age” girls?

    Is it the “plate” that will obviously initiate everything and be out there…?GIRLS WHO HAVE OPTIONS (AKA high smv girls) don’t have an urgency to do this.

    Maybe I’m dating too young of girls? Is it pretty much pointless to expect anything from these young young girls?

    Biggest thing that I have most recently learned is to avoid ONEITIS AT ALL COSTS. Do not cuddle. Do not invest nearly anything high at all. Treat a girl like a salesman or actor auditioning for a part/role. Is this the only role for the man? and the girl will audition and thus build more relationship/emotion?

    Thoughts

  4. “sadly, we’re also likely to see more guys snapping…the kind that gets the ratings”

    “guys need help developing the skill of Not Giving Too Much of a Fuck”

    “the status quo is pushing inherently fallible human beings past their breaking point”

    Sad to see my comments from just over a month ago be so tragically relevant. Also sad to see people in the mainstream and social media doubling down, and using this to further their sanctimonious agendas. If they really wanted to look for answers to the crisis, they’d do more than wave a dismissive hand over the sphere, among the insights and stories, they might find some answers here.

  5. Will –

    “If you have spun girls what is the sign that she is safe to fall in love with or be in an LTR with?”

    Brother, wrong fuckin’ question. At least, for you right now. You could not be asking a more counterproductive question at this stage.

    Get out there, meet a whole bunch of women, hook up with a whole bunch of women, do not under any circumstances see them more than once a week for at least the first month MINIMUM.

    Create abundance in your social life, your dating life, your sex life. You won’t give as much of a fuck if you know there are 50+ women who are acquaintances of yours, who are attracted to you, who you know you could on any given Tuesday afternoon send a brief ‘hey girl, how’s your weekend looking?’ and get an interested response back.

    You have to learn carefreeness and indifference at a far deeper level and the best way to do that is by creating massive abundance so that you have massive sexual options. Don’t even think about another LTR until you’re doing that, and that will take a couple months MINIMUM.

    Now get out there and put in the work! All the best. -S.

  6. A testimonial in support of Rational Male?I
    I am coming up on year 2. When I found this blog I was pissed, angry as a motherfucker, and I saw the shit I saw, but feeling alone and isolated in my views.

    I am not alone. There are many just like me.

    So now I know some shit.

    She is not the prize. I am. And for that I am a Threat. And the threat that this attitude could spread among men, that men see women at their true costs, that men cut through the nonsense of the Feminine Mystique, men that refuse to sublimate their masculinity, that refuse to be ridiculed for being a man, men that refuse to act in manners dictated by the Feminine Imperative is the hugest threat of all to women.

    She is psychologically unable to realize the sacrifice I make to be with her. I am a man with options, even if my option is no option, because the option of being without her relieves me of a major burden, a major liability, and the biggest threat to my well being, my financial position, and my very sanity. Yes, I am in relationship but at the front of the house is very door. And I will use it. I am not afraid to lose her. Yes, my financial situation is quite intertwined with her and their will be pain. But I will not die. I have been in worse straits and lived through it.

    There is no one. There are some “ones” that will do. For now. Some “ones” will do better than others. But there are others. I will not invest my all into a stupid pursuit of the “one”, a stupid investment in the one.

    And the person in a relationship that wants it the most has the least power. I will keep my relationships in a proper mature and adult perspective. Any day my woman wants to push me to test who has the most power, she will find that I do. Because there is no “one”.

    I am no woman’s white knight, no woman’s orbiter. I am the prize. If she doesn’t view what I offer as the prize then, quick as a bunny, my ass is down the road to the next special little snowflake. I don’t wait around. I don’t get played. I don’t get manipulated. I am never a “nice guy”. I am not so foolish as to have a woman as a “friend”. What a joke, friends with a woman, Jeez. Just think of all the stupid nonsense that men could avoid in this life if they all just adopted the rule “Fuck me or fuck off”.

    To me, of all the rules, this is THE Iron Rule of Tomassi. “There is no substitute for genuine desire.” You can negotiate for it; you can not give an ultimatum; she has it or she doesn’t, If she does you will know it. If she looses it, you will also know it. And it will be hell getting it back. “Never go through the trash”. It is better to invest your time in effort in finding and cultivating a new relationship then to worry over this one.

    One of the key quotes, “The beta that placates his wife with housework never satisfies her; meanwhile the alpha hasn’t taken out the trash in five years”. Once Genuine Desire is lost then she is never satisfied. She wants to be lead. She wants a man that “Gets It”.

    There might be a lot of different road maps to cultivating and retaining that genuine desire, and probably as many routes, if not more, to loosing it. But this is the thing I learned from Rational Male that gives me the most peace. I don’t give a fuck if she does. If she says “It’s not you; it’s me” she is right. It is her. She as a woman is psychologically unable to bond to me as unconditionally as I can with her. For her, it is always a calculation of hypergamy, of what she can gain, at what cost to her. So if her cranking and whirring up in that little hypergamy calculator spits out some number that is not longer workable for her, then I don’t give a fuck if it does.

    Never fear losing her. Never fear divorce. Never fear being alone. It might take a long time but you will find your way. You have time that she does not.

    And I learned there is no relational equity. All the sacrifices, all the work, all the stupid martyring in the world will not change a fucking thing.

    Yes, I could probably “bend the bullet” if I had to, but I don’t have to. When I made the proclamations I made earlier I didn’t know what I know now. And now I can go into the den with the lions and come out alive.

    Because after two years on this site, I ain’t what I could be, I ain’t what I should be, but motherfuckers, I ain’t what I was.

    Now I would ask you Rollo Tomassi, how many other men can say the same thing about the positive influence they have had on the lives of men? Yes, I too scanned that manifesto looking to see if their was some reference, something maybe I wrote or said. But what we do is observe, to notice.

    Like a doctor, you need to remember the ones you saved. I personally can count at least one, that you did. Me.

  7. @Steve H:

    I get all of that. But once al of that has been done, how will you know the right one to be with?

    Such as Rollo’s wife.

    I’m assuming she will make it veryyyyy clear. And I just haven’t experienced it to the degree/style yet.

  8. B/C Rollo says (and I agree with him) that LTR should be a byproduct to plate spinning. ….So the girl will make it clear I’m assuming? it’s hard not to analyze everything and for instance take it as a shit test when she brings it up ya know?

    Also if your career path involves a lot of moving (i.e. graduate school, work) then how the fuck do you keep up with all of this.

    Ideally I would love for my top “plate” to follow me but from what I;ve observed that DOES NOT happen. it used to (my mom and dad) but it just doesn’t and I can’t count on that.

    fuck idk.

    Oh and everyone realizes a girl’s best asset or whatever in the sex market is sex. that;s it. That’s a horrible ‘best’ asset. We can get that act easily within a time frame for life.

    I’m talking about getting a girl to attach to you. And to emotionally rape her and get her attached. B/c we all can agree that one of the best feelings is having entire control and manipulation over your girl. How do you get that

    Treating her horribly works. But I’m just wondering about the girls who get worn out or intimidated by this. Does that happen?

    And then also can you ‘let up’ sometimes and take her out to a nice thing just you and her…Or is that a never? idk

  9. Will,

    Don’t force your alpha: don’t try to be an asshole. Get in the best shape you can, gain self-confidence in whatever you’re good at (video games and wacking to porn don’t count), relax, and let it happen naturally. If you achieve a 6, expect to bed 4’s and 5’s. Eventually, you’ll find yourself spending more time with one of these over the course of a year or two. Focus on the other aspects of your life and “love” will find you. Then reread Rollo’s book.

    Never think in terms of rape, emotional or otherwise. If you get your shit together, freely given and continuous consent will follow.

  10. Thanks @rollo I’ll buy the book too. And one more thing I wanted a quick opinion on:

    Is taking a top ‘plate’ to really good seats at a pro hockey game a bad idea?? We got drunk had sex etc. but it’s been a long time of on off hooking up.

    Idk it almost felt like I outta the blue pedestalized her. And now it’s just radio silence like usual but it’s been a while so I’m wondering. did I fuck up? Next time I’m not doing shit and she can do the relationshipy stuff if she wants

    Quick thoughts?

  11. Uncovering the Men’s Rights Movement, and later on MGTOW, I began to develop a better sense of frame without being familiar with the term– though another way to put it is I became more comfortable with being masculine; I didn’t get interested in the red pill PUA side of the men’s movement until later, and even felt acerbic towards them in relation to the few platonic relationships with women I care about enough to protect, and PUA’s shaming males, whether InCel, other PUA’s, or otherwise, without necessarily having a strong moral incentive for doing so, while simultaneously claiming to support their humanization (though MGTOW have done this as well). The reality that I was a slave to a great deal of shame started to sink in, but my gratitude towards the MRM and MGTOW also created a blindness in me, and it took me awhile to fully realize that the greater freedom was being willing to disagree with anyone from my own ethical standpoint.

    I have placed knowledge and hedonism on a pedestal where attractive young women used to be. My life thus far this year has been more intellectually-varied and adventurous than what I could fit into one paragraph– plus, it would just make me look like a braggart, and it seems pointless to roam that territory without a couple tall glasses of beer and a large hat.

  12. The beta game aspect, i.e. doing what would have worked better had Rodger been a woman, i.e. the First Set of Books problem, has not been sufficiently emphasized elsewhere. But then too his entire approach to women was womanly: Sleeping Beauty doesn’t even work well for women to employ with men, much less a man trying to be Sleeping Beauty to get women.

  13. @bbb re: “gain self-confidence in whatever you’re good at”

    Besides your examples actually a LOT of things don’t count towards success with women. Because playing to my strengths, hyperness, intelligence, volubility, nerdiniess, never helped, I can confidently state that only a very small subset of things “you’re good it” count with women. IOW, DON’T be yourself if you were not being successful with women. As much as possible do the exact opposite, which for the majority of betas DOES mean forcing the alpha directly towards jerk, at least until some success with women starts happening.

  14. “A devoted girlfriend, and her sexual affections wouldn’t have steered his course any differently.”

    You think so? I’m still working my way through Rodger’s manifesto; I’m at page 101 now, or age 20. So far, it sounds to me it’s possible that had just 1 girl – and not necessarily one his idealized California blonde dream girls – given him intimate attention of the ‘girlfriend experience’ variety (hug onto his arm, head on his shoulder, light stroking of his face, etc), not necessarily including sex, that 1 data point alone might have instilled enough hope to pull him back from the brink. Not cured his mental problems, obviously, but just enough to curb his march to murder-suicide.

    That said, I’m not a mental health expert who understands Rodger’s psychosis. As much as I can identify and empathize with Rodger to a point, his mind went to places my mind doesn’t.

  15. I don’t see how any girl could have gotten through; she would be banging her head on a wall at best, and would rightly give up.

    Rodger was true narcissist enough to feel truly “entitled” to the hot blonde, who should have come to him and grovelled, per his manifesto. But even that would not have been enough. My bet: she would have had to follow a very specific script in his head, like Jack Nicholson’s “Carnal Knowledge” character who could only get hard if the hooker said her “women are bitches” lines absolutely the same each time. But Rodger was also a pseudo-narcissist (I think that’s the term) in that he could only define his self-awesomeness through his accessories, to wit, the hot blonde everyone would admire him for. (Forget who I’m stealing that from)

  16. And oh yes: I saw the childhood picture CH had on his site. Man that kid had dead eyes. No soul in there. He was gone gone gone before he ever grew pubes. The indifference of his family surely didn’t help, either.

  17. Rollo – recommendation for a RM post with massive traffic potential:

    “I need the MRA movement because…”

  18. Fred,

    I see those parts, but there are also parts where he’s appreciative when someone simply reaches out to him.

    I wonder how much of the blown-up aggrandized narcissism he expressed in his manifesto and videos was actually a defense mechanism for his doubts and insecurity, like a kid who compensates for poor academic ability by acting out in class to establish some kind of control in his life. Given the self-awareness, self-criticism, and gratitude to others that Rodger shows at various points in his manifesto, I’m not fully convinced it was only his Barbie-and-Ken fantasy or bust.

    I’ll accept an unattractive girl showing him love would have offended his sensibilities. But what if a presentably attractive girl (say, an HB6 cute brunette) had given Rodger a taste of the feminine attention he craved, again not necessarily with sex?

    Not a cure, but remember, this guy was bereft of feminine attention. An actual real-life taste that’d be mild for most guys might have been a powerful enough jolt of hope to pull Rodger out of the inner hell drowning him, at least enough not to go on a killing spree.

    Of course, I can’t say how this would have happened if Rodger was as repellent to girls as seems to have been the case.

  19. ive always been poor and thought i was ugly, i thought thats why i never got girls. if i was loaded and kinda good looking like this kid and still not getting any girls, man i wouldve been so confused and angry. the conditioning must of been so strong in this kid, maybe cus of the asbergers, he lapped up all the fembullshit and never questioned anything his whole life, until it was too late. its on the same level as someone finding out their religion is bullshit, look at the lenghts people go to to defend that ego-investment.

  20. “I need the MRA movement because…”

    “…it gives males who want to be professional victims a place to go and stop cluttering up the conversation about self-improvement first.”

  21. @jf12 “DON’T be yourself if you were not being successful with women. As much as possible do the exact opposite, which for the majority of betas DOES mean forcing the alpha directly towards jerk, at least until some success with women starts happening.”

    A similar rendering would be to broaden one’s interests; be good at things you like that others might be interested in too. One isn’t turning a 180, one is becoming more dimensional. If current associates think one is more of a jerk because of a successful MAP, then one should strive to meet new people. And they probably won’t all be hot babes.

    Roger fixated on stereotypical women banged by stereotypical men. We understand the lust he felt for 9’s and 10’s and observe the extreme morbid depths of his frustration with the gap he perceived between what he offered and what he thought the allegedly successful men offered. This disconnect was entirely too horrible for him to cope with in a sane manner.

    We agree that 20% of the men fuck 80% of the women. But the bar for men is so low that with an aggressive MAP just about any man, given enough time, can get into the 20%. So if one is a 5 and with effort becomes a 6, the 4’s and 5’s are in one’s sand box. And the possibility exists that one might meet women one’s fooled into thinking you’re a 7 or 8 who you think are also 7’s or 8’s (they think they are 5’s or 6’s) and, well, problem solved – at least as long as you continue running your MAP.

  22. For me, this website was pivotal. It made me see that criticising feminism did not mean I was scum, and that I had internalised many false beliefs about relationships and gender dynamics. I did a liberal arts degree and was constantly surrounded by radical feminists and people who jumped.on the “PC” bandwagon. I internalised it since during that period I had a housemate who was a very intense radical feminist who would control me with shaming tactics. I was scared of saying anything or doing anything that she wouldn’t like. In retrospect, i see she surrounded herself with betas but would date alpha jerks. No surprises there.

    I was in a five year relationship that turned into an LDR. She fucked me around for two years, promising to come home and be with me. In reality, she was looking around and six months after telling me she loved me and was moving home, got married to some guy. I went into a deep depression because I didn’t understand what happened, I lost all faith in women and humanity more generally. I knew she fucked me around, but I didn’t understand why, how or what I did wrong. This was the first website that actually gave me perspective and made me see how I’d spent the last ten years of my life believing in many feminist myths, not reality. It made me.even more depressed at first, and I still haven’t managed to internalize game after two years (still beta), I at least know what’s going on. I don’t think I can say red pill literally saved my life, because I’m still not healthy yet, but it sure as fuck obliterated a lot of false beliefs I had and gave me the confidence to defend these ideas to others and not give a fuck what they thought

    I think this place is special, I find Roosh too click-baity and arrogant, Roissy is a bit too ‘bitches and whores’ and Dalrock is more Christian than appeals to me. I always send people here when talking about Red Pill, because I know that it will always be rational, considered and not reactionary or controversial for the sake of it.

    I understand Elliot Rodger’s frame of mind and could write an essay explicating it. I think for a lot of men it’s one of those ‘therebut for the grace of Rollo go I’ things. I went through two years of ‘involuntary celibacy’ after the breakup above, partly also because I went bald – women treated me very differently. I was so angry at the world, at women specifically for.. Shit.. Not even for not fucking me, but we all have experienced the contemptuous manner with which women treat beta males, especially bald beta males who are depressed. It’s basically like you don’t exist to them, or worse, that you’re a creep, when all you want is to be treated with a bit of respect. Then it gets worse because it becomes a viscious cycle.

    Anyway… I’m getting better, and whilst I had to take a bit of a break from the manosphere (and social media, and the internet more broadly), I can almost look back a bit now to the rage I had with a mixture of awe, fear and embarrassment. My rage was mostly directed internally though.

    Rollo, he probably wouldn’t have been receptive to game in the last six months, but having read his entire manifesto, I think that there may have been a chance for it to inspire him. It was clear that he had developed a very black and white view of the world, and in effect cornered himself with his thinking. I hope that many more young men will read RM and give them some insight into their own understandings of the world and how they may be wrong, thus potentially preventing them from heating down similarly false avenues of thought.

  23. Jay X, good comment, keep working on it.

    Probably like most of us men, you may lack a bit of confidence in the woman game, but are alphalpha in other areas. Work on those areas to build confidence in your beta areas. But more then anything else, start doing things in your life for yourself. Be selfish. You cannot be happy if you do not first fill yourself with worth. The trick is when you are secure in who you are and are overflowing with confidence and joy, then you will have excess to share with others. But if you do not take care of yourself first, you will be a shallow pool that dries up quickly and has nothing to share or give to others. Become a deep and interesting person.

    As you start to exude a vibe of independence and confidence and joy in living, the women and men will just naturally start to become inquisitive about this bald guy who enjoys life so much.

    I don’t know, but as a commentator said elsewhere, we no longer have ritual in the west to confirm a boy’s journey into manhood. I believe that is a big reason we have so many guys nowadays that are agog over woman and never take care of themselves first.

  24. “You will be a shallow pool that dries up quickly and has nothing to share or give to others.”

    That is so true. This was one of my problems- I was very eager to please and thought I was doing a good thing by putting my girlfriend’s interests above my own. It’s still hard to understand, because I always thought that’s what love was, and now I don’t really know what it is. But what I’ve noticed is that I gave and gave, hoping/expecting that when the time came it would be reciprocated, but it wasn’t.

    It sounds weird, but I’m trying to learn how to be selfish.

    “As you start to exude a vibe of independence and confidence and joy in living, the women and men will just naturally start to become inquisitive about this bald guy who enjoys life so much.”

    I tend to smile a lot when I’m feeling good, but worried that perhaps peoole see it as submissive or too agreeable.

    Thanks for your reply

  25. @bbb, re: “A similar rendering would be to broaden one’s interests; be good at things you like that others might be interested in too.”

    I totally agree. Granted some things aren’t logically compatible, like bar hopping and taking church seriously, but one’s choices define one.

  26. @Jay X, re: “It sounds weird, but I’m trying to learn how to be selfish.”

    Perfectly expressed. It is difficult when it doesn’t come Naturally, and it is a shame our culture had to come to this point.

    “I tend to smile a lot when I’m feeling good, but worried that perhaps peoole see it as submissive or too agreeable.”

    The smirk is the solution. Again, it will feel weird, but practice the jerk smirk until it feels more Natural.

  27. I don’t think game would have saved Rodger. Game can cure celibacy, but not evil and madness. Sure, a knowledge of game probably would have gotten him laid, but what happens when his girlfriend dumps him for another guy? Chances are he would have snapped then anyway, or if not then, at some point down the road.

    Besides, it’s not like a guy’s getting laid necessarily prevents him from committing crime; indeed, some of the most sexually successful men in the modern west are violent criminals.

  28. I was directed to this site about six months ago, and I know that it has spared me from a lifetime of beta servitude. At 27, I no longer worry as I see friends get married wondering will I ever find “the one”. I also am confident the next 10 years will be better than the last 10 as I gain experience and SMV. Now I look to work on spinning plates because getting oneitis has been my biggest problem in the past.

    The recent post about the friend zone helped me with my current FWB. She asked me about meeting for coffee during the day (I work nights) so I suggested we meet at her place vs. Starbucks to make for an easier hookup. The night before I see she is on a date with another guy, so I text her “I can’t wait to ravage you tomorrow”. She responded “oh is that was this is about?”. So I said “yeah I figured we would have lots of energy from the coffee”. The next day she greeted me in a dress and all went to plan.

    Thanks Rollo for showing me how to obtain what I really want from women instead of spinning my wheels doing what’s expected.

  29. @Eric: A little kindness goes a long way, don’t you find? I learned a long time ago that men need a woman who can handle them when they’re angry. Someone who wrote a manifesto that long needed desperately to be heard, don’t you think? Men are only human too, and they need to express themselves and long for understanding.

  30. A little kindness does go a long way. A very long way.

    The vast majority of people can’t even remotely conceive of the level of suffering that goes with prolonged emotional and sexual isolation. An entire existence with the complete absence of touch and connection. It’s easy for them to judge. Anyone who’s had to live through that hell for any significant amount of time would never cast stones.

    It’s an inhuman existence that no one should ever wish on anyone on this planet. Nobody deserves to suffer that much. When you’ve gone years without basic human connection and bonding and you feel like there’s no hope left, every single day is a living nightmare.

    Anything that gives a glimmer of hope can completely change your outlook when you’re used to living like this. But I will say that the craving for sexual intimacy is specific. And it’s very important not to confuse that with regular affection, or acceptance and understanding by anyone.

    That’s where choking on the red pill comes in. I’ve had a serious conflict inside my mind, because I told myself I wanted affection, understanding, etc., for so long — really what that means is sexual intimacy. I didn’t want affection from just anyone. I wanted to be in a relationship, or even digging deeper than that, sex.

    It isn’t trivializing what we call love. It’s just getting more specific. Sex covers everything: all the intimacy, bonding, acceptance, etc., is inherent in having sex. Most people just never think about that because it’s never felt hopelessly impossible for them to get it, and when you don’t have to live without something, you take it for granted.

    The hardest part, for sure, is abandoning the scarcity mentality when you’ve objectively experienced more scarcity than anyone who’s telling you to abandon the scarcity mentality. It makes things feel very hopeless and even more frustrating when the people telling you to buck up and put yourself back together never had to suffer as much as you did.

    I have some theories about that, and how resistance to changing our minds and pursuing a life of abundance can come from wanting to spite people. Eliot had his day of retribution, but in a lot of ways, he was having his day of retribution every single day of his life by attaching to his identity with loneliness and suffering.

    Every day in his mind he was having his day of retribution: spiting the world and everyone in it because that’s how he learned to cope with his intense and unbearable feelings of loneliness, rejection and abandonment. It was not an effective way to cope, but it was the only way he knew. He did the best he could with whatever the subconscious resources were that he had available in his mind, until the dam finally broke.

    Learning Game is the hardest for the people who need it the most.

    To have to take responsibility for your own emotions when they have been shattered and abused by so many people your whole life feels like an injustice above all injustices. That you should have to repair the damage that other people did to you, without anyone else in the world being expected to lift a single finger to help you, or even care about you.

    That feels completely unfair. It’s infuriating. Even though sex and bonding and affection are human needs, you’re not entitled to them. That’s quite a mindfuck. So there are conflicted feelings: self-hatred tied into resentment of other people, feeling entitled to having what you want and hating everyone for having what you don’t, especially since it’s a NEED, but then feeling shame and worthlessness, and feeling like nobody owes you anything because you’re so inferior to everyone around you, and maybe you deserve to be isolated because apparently you’re such a bad, unlovable person, that no one wants to love you.

    Eliot mentioned not wanting to talk to different girls because they’d just think he was a creep. He’d already defeated himself in his mind. He’d already rejected himself, he’d already abandoned himself, and the abandonment and rejection was the movie he was constantly playing in his mind.

    He didn’t know any better and he did the best he could to cope with the pain he was going through. I don’t see him as evil — I see it as a tragedy for everyone involved.

    A simply more empathic society is not the answer. We need to be realistic about this stuff. That’s where game comes in. Having girls be more sympathetic to guys is not going to help when they still don’t want to fuck them — the sexual rejection will trigger the same abandonment and rejection rage and hopelessness that drives people to suicide and murder.

    Teaching men to be responsible for their own lives is a good start. But this has to be done tactfully. Condemning the victim mentality only makes people more defensive of it — they will get their figurative court papers and start making a case to prove to you why they’re so miserable, and all the focus will be taken away from feeling better and getting what they want in life.

  31. “Having girls be more sympathetic to guys is not going to help when they still don’t want to fuck them — the sexual rejection will trigger the same abandonment and rejection rage and hopelessness that drives people to suicide and murder.”

    I wonder if this was part of the purpose of courtly love. Perhaps the knight got emotional fulfillment from the older, married woman as she appreciated his service. He couldn’t feel rejected because she was already married. But he learned enough about women from her to have his needs met in his own later relationship. Maybe not part of the purpose but perhaps a byproduct.

  32. I don’t think one instance of feminine affection would have cured him. But could one contrary data point have given him enough hope to hang on?

    p 119: “If only one pretty girl had shown some form of attraction to me, the Day of Retribution would never happen. I’d never even consider it. The Day of Retribution is mainly my war against women for rejecting me and depriving me of sex and love. If only one girl had given me a chance, tried to get to know me, let me take her out on a date… None of this would have to happen.”

    The kid was crazy, so I don’t just take him at his word, but maybe just one positive memory would have been enough.

  33. Softek ahoots and scores again! “Learning Game is the hardest for the people who need it the most.”

  34. Thought for the week (and it’s early Monday morning): Having girls be more sympathetic to guys WOULD help if women were ACTUALLY sympathetic. The ACTUAL sympathetic response to a thirsty man is giving him drink. The ACTUAL sympathetic response to a sexually deprived man is ensuring he gets sex.

    What happens, instead, is always a complete lack of sympathy for undesired men. Women will always say, of those men, “Sex isn’t a need” etc. for the purpose of disrespecting those men’s sex drives.

  35. @Jeremy – I keep hearing that distinction about MRAs, but I’ve seen little of it. But I haven’t been around these spaces as long as you. However I think there’s enough unity of purpose between them and MGTOWs and ‘masculinists’ to galvanize forces at a time like now, while of course not attempting to stem brisk dissent among men of differing views. Paul Elam and his crew are definitely fighting the good fight for many who post here and have been burned by NFD et al, even if they don’t know it.

  36. The left champion their own version of red-pillery about female’s sexual nature;

    i.e.

    Sex At Dawn
    http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Modern-Relationships/dp/0061707813

    What Do Women Want?: Adventures in the Science of Female Desire
    http://www.amazon.com/What-Do-Women-Want-Adventures/dp/0061906085
    http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/truth-about-female-desire-its-base-animalistic-and-ravenous?paging=off

    Interesting don’t you think, that no one on the left attached Elliot Rodger’s political ideology to these leftwing books about female sexual nature? As such a link can easily be made.

  37. Combine this with the fact that he was decidely anti-PUA, it can easily be argued that his actions were inspired by feminist-kumbaya-matriarchal/matrilinial-promiscuous sexual utopia where women mate with men purely for their genetic quality and their husbands still provide for/paternally invest in them to a high degree regardless of their cuckolding of them.

  38. @Steve

    …Paul Elam and his crew are definitely fighting the good fight for many who post here and have been burned by NFD et al, even if they don’t know it.

    Paul Elam and his MHRA are fighting the good fight with nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. They’re using tools that do not enhance harmony between the sexes, but rather will only increase the antagonism. Their intentions are fine, yet their methods are deliberately wasteland inducing. Their behavior will come back to haunt them and other men in the decades to come. They refuse to see this, and because of this refusal they must paint all other opinions on them as “wrong” somehow, which frankly reeks of FI.

    You do not extinguish a culture of entitlement/victimhood by playing the victim. That’s what they (MHRA) do, that’s how they operate, that’s their entire MO. This world needs more self-declared victims like it needs another major asteroid impact.

  39. Question for the more experienced here: Do women enjoy being friend-zoned themselves? Do women LIKE to pursue a man who is just trying to be friends with her?

  40. @Jeremy – OK, I appreciate that perspective and clarification. Two followup questions I have:

    1) “They’re using tools that do not enhance harmony between the sexes, but rather will only increase the antagonism.” Isn’t that what Susan Walsh accuses Rollo of – that in her words, he’s a ‘dark triad male’ who ‘wants to shut down communication between the sexes’?

    2) Also, I was pleased to see Rollo stridently fighting the good fight all over the ‘Sphere last week, launching reframes and counter-accusations – very much on the attack. I also learned of the AVFM conference death threats from him. The his antagonism was palpable, but justified and much-appreciated at least as I see things. What’s your take on that?

    1. I worry that guys like Elam (and Roosh to a lesser extent) will be the public face of the manosphere as it receives more notoriety. The failed ABC 20/20 piece was ready to make Elam look like the Godfather of misogyny and hate, and I’ll be surprised if they don’t revamp that interview and actually air it this time in the wake of Rodger’s killings.

      The problem, as I wrote over on RoK, is that the MSM wants its easy answers. The manosphere isn’t just PUA and MRAs, there’s a lot of variation even just in those groups, but there’s MGTOWs, RedPill Reddit which is an amalgam of a lot of different branches. There’s christo-red pill, and many others.

      That’s a lot for anyone unfamiliar to really grasp with any depth, especially when their ‘investigations’ need to be easily interpreted by an 8th grade reading level and attention span.

      So it’s just “hate speech” move along, nothing to see here. That’s why the manosphere will never see anything like a fair interpretation in the MSM, they want crazy. So you get guys like Manboobz Futrelle and feminerd Andrew Chu being taken as local ‘experts’ on NPR or any other news outlet.

      Frothing feminists’ takes are a given, but the media needs sympathetic male voices to feign some sort of legitimacy.

  41. I can’t believe I did this, but I spent yesterday reading Elliot’s manifesto, watching his videos, and scanning some of the fallout.

    When children only experience instant gratification, are constantly made to believe that they are superior to others, only have playdates, fail at school, get lost for months within World of Warcraft (or what have you) – all enabled by a successful series of tantrums – the resultant male adolescent will lack the modicum of game necessary to get laid. And it doesn’t matter how good looking he thinks he is or well off he seems to be.

    All can agree that an adult having a tantrum is a very poor strategy for getting what he wants. But that was all Elliot knew. If he were a woman, that strategy, unfortunately for humankind, would often have worked. This is simply because many males will endure virtually anything for sexual access. Women not so much.

    IMHO, we will see many more Elliots snapping and I’m afraid that nothing can be done to stop it. The damage has been done and society will pay the price.

  42. @bbb, re: “If he were a woman, that strategy, unfortunately for humankind, would often have worked.”

    Yes! That is the point I’ve been trying to make: Rodger acted like a *woman*, but the media are portraying this as being typical of men.

  43. @if12 You make an interesting point. Most boys now a days act like women because they are trained to believe that is the correct way to act. The men in their lives are either gone or too impotent to effect positive change in the youngsters. So they either find another male role model and copy them or sty stuck with the brainwashing. I wonder do you guys think it would be possible to spread the knowledge of game to kids/teens in a widespread way like an after school program or a summer camp? That would fix alot of these issues in my opinion

  44. @Steve H

    Isn’t that what Susan Walsh accuses Rollo of – that in her words, he’s a ‘dark triad male’ who ‘wants to shut down communication between the sexes’?

    If Susan Walsh said that, she likely spent as much time as her ego-invesment allowed her to in reviewing the truths contained in Rollo’s blog. Many many women do this, because Rollo’s blog reveals more truths that are uncomfortable to women than men. It’s a true reflection of the motivations of the female, and most women will deny deny deny and accuse those reflecting those truths of anything to shut down discussion. All women, even and especially “Red Pill” women have more problems with Rollo’s blog than the rest of the manosphere. Women who have been red pill their whole lives attack things Rollo says. Why is this? Because only Rollos blog has purified truth about the motivations of the sexes. Modern women are deceived into believing themselves princesses. They have an undeserved elevated sense of their moral standing in this aspect of society. It’s not entirely their fault they have this, they’re just living a lie they were taught, just as blue-pill men were taught lies. Unlike blue-pill men, who generally have a sense that they’re being manipulated/used, blue-pill thinking in women does not go down without a miraculous fight (because it is inherently beneficial to them).

    I also learned of the AVFM conference death threats from him. The his antagonism was palpable, but justified and much-appreciated at least as I see things. What’s your take on that?

    You learned of death threats from who? Rollo? or Elam?

    What does a masculine man do with death threats? I think it should be almost nothing if he’s properly prepared himself to deal with violence (and imo every many should already do this). Threats are meaningless to the prepared man. What do you do with a crazy woman who has lost her shit and started throwing things all over the house? I would think that you do not respond to crazy. You set up a video camera, and leave the house when it gets ridiculous. These indoctrinated feminists need the same treatment, they need their crazy exposed, and they need to be ignored. Ignoring them should start with the manosphere.

    In this respect, I think Elam’s response of exposing them (via publishing the letter he received from the hotel) is appropriate. However, I think the security response should be minimal. I think you either take the bullet and let these violent people become violent (that really worked against them in Toronto, twice), or you move to a new venue where violence in opposition to free speech is not tolerated (red states, *not* Detroit).

  45. @bbb

    I can’t believe I did this, but I spent yesterday reading Elliot’s manifesto…

    I haven’t, I’ve let the blogosphere endure that pain for me. However, what I have read/heard directly quoted from it has altered my perception of the situation some. I still think that game could have saved his life. However, that instruction in game should have come from his father and should have started before he was 12 years old. This kid was raised in the environment of Hollywood, where the men get female attention by default, and his father was basically entirely absent. On top of this, he had a wanna-be-media-elite entitled cunt of a stepmother who (I think) was one of the major reasons he snapped. Her argument with Elliot where she stuck the dagger in about how his (Elliot’s) younger brother would lose his virginity before Elliot did was particularly cruel. I consider that exchange (as documented in the “manifesto”) basically criminal abuse of a minor.

  46. I was reading a thread on TRP reddit about this guy who’d bought my book and his wife or GF had discovered it. He wasn’t too concerned about it, but she started reading it and the rest of the thread was about their discussions of what I go into about the nature of women and inter-gender relations.

    It was very entertaining because, while she became defensive about a lot of the less flattering mechanics women use in their sexual strategies, she couldn’t deny them or the truth they represented. She basically agreed with every element I go into in the book, but she hated that she DID agree with me.

    At one point in their conversation she says, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”

    I think this dynamic is the primary frustration most women have when they read my work. They almost never refute what I write, but they offer up some personal anecdote as to why what I explain is accurate, but doesn’t apply to them specifically. Or else it’s agreement…but men do it too, in a different way. Usually it’s an agreement paired with a deflection or misdirection.

    The problem is (as I wrote in The Threat) that “Men shouldn’t know this stuff!” because it dispels the magic, it defeats the strategy – assuming a man accepts it. It hits too close to home for women like Aunt Sue to have her own machinations explained back to her, especially now when she has too much invested in the security and provisionings side of her hypergamy and cannot afford to have those machination explained overtly to her, or women like her, beta husband.

    Her efforts are to build better betas, but still keep those betas unaware of the ends of women’s sexual strategy. Aunt Sue’s sexual and relationship past are a textbook example of everything I wrote about in the Preventative Medicine series – and she knows this – and my exposing it to men preemptively (hopefully) is a threat to her ego as well as to the secrets she’d rather “men shouldn’t know.”

  47. I have to say, my dad and my mentor have been two very powerful male influences in my life. Some of the most secure and well adjusted men I’ve ever met.

    Both my dad and my mentor are very successful in their own ways, they both live exactly the way they want, and in some ways they’re like kids — free spirited and more or less oblivious to what other people think of them because they’re too concerned with living their own lives.

    I used to play tons of videogames to cope. And go on porn and jerk off all the time. In recent months I’ve completely quit videogames and porn, and I feel much better for doing that. I’ve been using Faster EFT to cope with the cravings, and it works.

    Porn and videogames are the escapes of this generation of boys and men. When you drop the distractions, then you REALLY start facing all the stuff that’s brewing around inside of you: all your worst fears and painful feelings that you were running away from.

    A girl I’ve been friends with for going on 10 years that I’ve been interested in more or less the whole time gave me a hug a month or so ago. It surprised me, and it made my day. Total ONE-itis, completely ignoring the fact that I’ve put myself in the friendzone (needy/desperate state of mind that can’t let go and move on).

    I couldn’t help feeling that way. For all the alpha and beta talk, the plain fact is if you have these feelings and you are needy, you can’t run away from it. Just face it and then deal with things from there.

    The hardest part is when you get a small taste of attention like that. I’ve been so deprived and have never had any sexual experiences with any girls I felt in love with, so just that hug meant the world to me.

    But as justified as I am in having those feelings, it isn’t a matter of being justified. It isn’t a court case. It all comes down to this: what do I want? Holding onto the feelings of abandonment and rejection and playing the movies over and over again in my mind about how neglected I’ve been, and how starved I am for sex and attention…

    …is only hurting me. In a way maybe it’s keeping me in a mentality of avoiding sex, because sex would ruin my abandonment and rejection feelings. All I’ve identified with is loneliness: that’s who I perceive myself to be, even though it’s just a feeling I’ve had, and one that I don’t like.

    If I had sex, if I did have a relationship, if I did pursue women, and was successful: then what? Who would I be? The answer is a happier, healthier person. I would still be me.

    But here’s another side: if you want to be saved, you have to be lonely. You have to be desperate. If you want a girl to ‘save’ you by giving you her love and attention and devotion…you have to be in a position to be saved. So that could be one subconscious reason for holding on so tightly to loneliness and despair and even ONE-itis. If you let go and live your own life, and see all the options that’re out there for you…you have to let go of your personal fantasy of finally having the love of that one special girl giving you the comfort and solace you’ve been waiting for your whole life.

    It’s very clear that Eliot held these things strongly in his mind: his self-perception of loneliness, isolation, abandonment and rejection. But the key is this: he was completely justified in feeling that way, but that justification only makes it harder to let go of it.

    Because now you have every reason in the world to feel the way you do. So you focus on arguing how you feel, and justifying how you feel…but you’re miserable. So you’re proving that you have every right to feel miserable and then you hold onto that misery like it’s a diploma. It’s your achievement; it’s your identity.

    I think we hold onto pain and loneliness because deep down in the subconscious, we believe that there is something we can get out of it. Whether it’s proving other people wrong, or getting love and support, I believe we hold onto these things for a reason. Obviously it doesn’t work out very well.

    That’s why I’ve been using Faster EFT — to go right to the subconscious. Like that girl I have ONE-itis for, for example. I go back to the feeling of her hugging me, and then I feel how sad and lonely and desperate I feel. And then I clear it out. Keep going back until I can think of the memory and it no longer bothers me.

    It does help me to consciously realize as well that what I want is respect as a man. Nothing extraordinary or above anyone else. Just respect. Not being coddled.

    Shaming guys who want to be coddled can make them cling to it more strongly. Again with the justification thing, and the internalized belief that they can get something out of it.

    The loneliness/abandonment/etc. I hold onto, is because I’ve internalized that that’s how I can get love, sex, support, whatever. Consciously realizing that it won’t help me is one part. Subconsciously changing how I think and feel is the bigger part. But it’s a mix of the two.

    And conscious realization can be a big help when you’re trying to pull yourself out of a subconscious descent into loneliness and despair. Once I tap on myself while saying, “I’m really here right now. I’m safe. I am okay. And it’s safe for me to let this feeling go”…

    …I can reinforce the feeling of peace by reminding myself that being at peace is going to make it much easier for me to pursue sex and relationships and generally get what I want out of life.

    The conditioning runs very deep, and all kinds of hopes and dreams and fantasies are woven into that fabric. Realizing that they’re all based not on what you really want, but on fear, desperation, sadness, loneliness, abandonment, rejection, etc…

    …allows you to start the process of letting go of them. It’s a leap of faith to guys who are still 100% plugged in (honestly sometimes I feel like that, even after all the months I’ve spent reading here), but the main message is that the purpose of the red pill is for you to have a better, happier future, with better relationships with women.

    It might not seem better because it conflicts with the fantasies born out of helplessness and loneliness. But we have to trust that it is. Realizing that the fantasies and idealizations are born out of fear, helplessness, rejection, abandonment, etc., is a big part of recovering.

    A big delusion a lot of men like me have is that we have to feel lonely and abandoned in order to get the love we really want (i.e., love to take away our feelings of loneliness and abandonment). When we have more respect and love for our own selves we can approach our own desires for sex more healthfully.

    And trust me, I know as well as any other guy does that this is not an easy process. But again: remind yourself that it’s about letting go of internal feelings that are hurting you, feelings that you don’t want. This is not a nihilistic journey. It’s a process of transformation into a better, happier life by gradually loosening our grip on all the thoughts and feelings we hold inside of us that are tormenting us so much.

    Even without sex, by changing my attitude and releasing negative feelings as they come up instead of holding onto them for dear life (ironically, because they feel like they’re killing me), my quality of life has improved. I remember reading about one study where they said how it was a person’s perception of how lonely they were that affected their health the most, as opposed to any objective measurement of that loneliness (e.g. married or not, single or not, a lot of friends or very few friends or no friends, pets or no pets).

    Not saying it’s case closed, but self-perception and what we choose to hold inside of our minds is at least very important.

  48. …because it dispels the magic, it defeats the strategy – assuming a man accepts it. It hits too close to home for women like Aunt Sue to have her own machinations explained back to her…

    What am I supposed to take from the notion that women cannot stand men knowing their “strategy”, while male “strategy” is as overt as overt gets? How am I not supposed to take that as a sign of immaturity?

  49. I’m MGTOW focused on positive masculinity. I very much appreciate PUA/Game, which teaches a critical, baseline praxeology. I’m neither religious nor a social activist, but I support the Christian red pill and MRM in principle. I learn from them as well.

    There is a cup half-full vs cup half-empty way of viewing the diverse strains and sub-strains of the Manosphere. I prefer to view the cup as half full. To me, the Manosphere is a vibrant bazaar/convention/marketplace of masculine improvement resources to shop in. That we can turn a corner and find unexpected ideas and knowledge, some enlightening, some repulsive, some thoroughly incompatible, some entirely uninteresting, some dumb, some life-changing, is a benefit. I’m for an expansive umbrella. I disagree with personalities who go beyond critical debate and try to corner the market or ‘police’ the community to an iron norm.

  50. @Rollo, re: “At one point in their conversation she says, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”

    I agree with the spate of comments complimenting your writing as especially helpful in understanding the world around us, especially as pertains to women’s sexual motivations. Probably you experience some criticisms of much of what you say as being repetitive, but it’s a true thing that repetition is the key to learning. Also true that a deep diver will *correctly* report a lot of the same stuff semi-repetitively”There’s a lot of water, and it’s getting murkier, but here’s something …” no matter where he dives.

    In honor of your oft-expressed soft-pedaling of your contributions, I nominate for a theme song “Tin Man”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3fI0mLz3ks
    “Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
    That he didn’t, didn’t already have”

    Of course, de-eunuchization wouldn’t have flown well in a children’s story.

  51. “Question for the more experienced here: Do women enjoy being friend-zoned themselves? Do women LIKE to pursue a man who is just trying to be friends with her?”

    If you’re not interested in someone, it might prick a little if they friend-zone you first, but, basically its a wash- no hurt feelings either way. If you’re interested in them and they friend-zone you, then you’ll have some hurt feelings, especially if they gave you very strong signals that they did like you more than in a friendly way. Bottom line though, pursuing someone who says they just want to be friends is a stupid and ridiculous waste of time. Either they really do want to be friends and that won’t change, or they’re playing games, and that’s a tell that the person is not genuine or mature. What women really want is a man they’re interested in demanding exclusivity. Game was always about subverting the expected. Now that its so little practiced, committed monogamy is the new game.

  52. @Kate, re: “What women really want is a man they’re interested in demanding exclusivity.”

    Well said in a kernelized way. The problem for the woman, of course, is that the man she’s interested in could not care less what she really wants, because he has options that she knows of, and others that she does not know.

    The reason I asked is because one of the major themes for over a month has been the genders tending to act like they want the other gender to act: women becoming bossy, for example, and men becoming mollifying. So it stands to reason that if women project other such behaviors, then by friend-zoning men the women may be projecting their own desire to be friend-zoned.

  53. ” by friend-zoning men the women may be projecting their own desire to be friend-zoned.”

    I don’t understand what you’re saying here. What do you mean? That she thinks it’d be a successful strategy to friend-zone men because it makes her go into chase mode when it happens to her?

    I think in some cases women friend-zone men because they don’t want to lead them on. If there isn’t some sort of feeling early on, she wants to nip it in the bud. It could be used as a test though: to gauge his thoughts/feelings, etc. Or even just as a defense mechanism (some sort of race to friend-zone before the other person does it). Is that what you were getting at too?

  54. @Jf12: Yeah, I think everything is pretty much on an instinctual level, but you can become aware of what you’re doing. Something I think would have helped E.R. would have been to realize that probably the vast majority of his rejections weren’t personal at all. A woman has one of three reactions to a man. Rejection = “I don’t want to get pregnant.” And acceptance ranges from “If I got pregnant, I wouldn’t mind” to “I *want* to have your baby.” Maybe that sounds absurdly reductionist, but underneath it all, sometimes the hostility women show towards men is a protective device in general and not some specific critique of him.

  55. Are we to regard all women as somewhat mediocre magicians who will do anything to keep men from looking behind the curtain? Doesn’t it say that if your strategy cannot accept exposure, when your rival’s strategy is open-literature, then your position is weaker than you would let on?

  56. I discovered the red pill mindset completely on accident, at a time when I was dissatisfied with all aspects of my life and not just my lack of a meaningful sex life. This site in particular has been one of my favorites as it breaks things down in a philosophical way. However, it is way too easy to get bogged down in all the terms and acronyms when discussing the dating scene or sexual marketplace or whatever else one chooses to call the more intimate social aspects of life. The fact that I’ve been a reader for almost a year and a half and, though I’m improving my life in many ways, I haven’t progressed sexually as a person at all is enough proof for me that simply soaking up all the information this corner of the web has to offer isn’t enough.

    This tragedy involving Eliot Rodgers has struck a chord with me from the moment I heard excerpts from his final YouTube video on the news. The raw facts from his life can be cut and paste right into my own. I too am 22. I too have never had sex. I too have never even kissed a girl. There are losers who descend into bitterness and anger and there are losers who implode and just give up. I count myself in the second category. As much as I’d like to completely write off the events that happened as the result of a delusional madman, when I look in the mirror it’s easier than I’d like to admit to see how similar a situation Eliot was in that I am. It’s just the response that’s different.

    Adding ‘game’ into my life has not been easy. I haven’t ever been actively discouraged and have enjoyed meaningful relationships with family and a small group of close friends. But I can relate to the earlier comments about how never really building the right social skills can really hamper self improvement in certain areas of life. There are mental hurdles that no amount of vegetable juice or weightlifting can compensate for. And that’s not advocating being defeatist and avoiding improvement on personal health and fitness to become a better man, but a lot of the time it feels like there is a disconnect for those of us working from a more socially maladjusted position when trying to build toward a level where intimate relationships are even possible.

    I would consider myself socially competent in most situations, I can get a job, shoot the shit and generally get through the day. However, some of the most frustrating conversations have been with those who care about me regarding my lack of dating and sexual frustration. It is impossible to say something like “you don’t understand” and not sound like a bratty teenager but I’ve had to express many times in the past that even people with moderately successful sex lives have a near impossible time relating to those who have had no success at all. And in their defense it’s hard to communicate the hopeless feeling that comes from never having made out or never feeling a breast in my life. Divulging facts like that and NOT being judged or given shit for it isn’t useful because it’s just depressing information that doesn’t offer anything to work from. People trying to help don’t really have any way to relate to it and people who are experiencing it first hand get depressed thinking about it.

    I read a quote recently about how a typical ‘blue pill’ mindset that gets guys into trouble is the conditioning that not being with a woman is abnormal to them so they waste no time in diving headfirst into relationships which of course projects all sorts of dependence and neediness to the world (and women) around them. I feel like there is an inverse of that where the unsuccessful get so used to things not going their way that attempting relationships is what feels abnormal and being alone is the norm. In many ways social stamina is like a muscle and it atrophies without use. This is one of the big hurdles I’ve faced as I’ve become quite the shut-in since high school and even being in a crowded grocery store saps my energy quickly. Adding in the bar scene or pick-up just feels out of reach. It’s a frustrating problem that I haven’t really found any real solution for.

    In many ways game and the red pill has changed my life for the better. I’m definitely happier than I was 12-18 months ago. I’ve made some big changes in my life. I’ve moved and changed jobs/career paths. I’ve added in juicing and weightlifting to my life and am taking nutrition and health seriously for the first time. I haven’t even reached mid term personal fitness goals yet and I’m reaping the rewards. But I’m still a sexual dud. As far as that aspect of my life is concerned I feel listless and unmotivated and I have no answers on how move forward in a meaningful way. I try to focus on other things and keep myself busy but I know I’m not doing enough to get out and be around people enough to flex the social muscle and maybe pluck up the courage to get a date once in a while. It’s just not a part of life I really know how to add to my own life. I’ve given up for so long I don’t even know what sort of social training wheels I need to implement.

    I’d say a big part of the problem is a lack of success killing any sort of realistic goals. An active social life sounds exhausting, monogamy sounds awful. I’m not even sure what to strive for. All I have is a feeling of ambivalence and trying to find a balance between “fuck all the bitches” and celibacy. And today’s society has made it all too easy to self medicate loneliness and unhappiness with porn, video games and food. These are tough habits to break and hating myself for succumbing to them in the first place only slows the process down.

    I suppose I still have a long way to go and I’m ok with that. I’ve always had realistic expectations and am happy with what little I’ve done so far. I can definitely relate to commenters like Hobbes and Softek though, even when my life hasn’t been particularly bad. Even now feelings of loneliness creep in regularly and I have to beat back suicidal thoughts and feelings of hopelessness. I have goals that I’m trying to meet but for now my I don’t see my bed post acquiring notches any time soon.

  57. @ Zen

    I’m sure some more red-pill qualified & experienced Men will offer you better advice (as a 22 y/o) than I, however I’m compelled to at least give you my thoughts – as I have only recently unplugged and now navigating a brand new SMP as a single father at 42.

    First though, I’m not sure how much of Rollo you have actually digested, but I think you could re-read a few posts (The 2nd set of books and Anger Management) for starters. Hell, even all Year 1 & 2 just to take it all in again.

    But, I think the problem lies in your Buffers (another great Rollo post).

    But you’re right in some respects that all the manosphere blogs in the world will not get you laid and over your approach anxiety – which is what I think you need to work on. You need to learn some basic PUA tips to help you get your approach numbers up. Mystery Method is a classic and great platform. Read it.

    I’m assuming the goal is to pop your cherry and get laid asap?? In the beginning of your post you mention “lack of meaningful sex” but then you say that you haven’t yet had sex – I’ll assume the latter.

    There is no way to escape the fact that you must approach women. You have to force yourself into situations &/or environments where you can get eye contact from females (you also have to look for it) – and then say “hi – I really wanted to meet you, what’s your name” or one of the thousands of openers available to you. It mostly doesn’t even matter what you say.

    It’s fuckin hard I know and it makes 90% of guys crumble / buffer and not do it – but YOU MUST OPEN SETS.

    Brother, you’re on the right path. Half the battle was unplugging and you have done that. I only had a few notch counts at 22 and you have 40 more years of pu55y to pillage.

  58. @Zen, I’m seconding Stuttie. Advice to move forward: approach. Approach, approach, approach. Your complaint boils down to this, essentially: you feel you don’t want to approach, because it feels difficult and unusual and scary and sad and it hurts, so you want to know some trick to feeling like wanting to approach.

    But sorry, there is no trick. True that the Thirst ought to be enough to drive you to try *something*, but if you are shying away from approaching then you simply have to, have to, approach. As everyone would say, especially to those to whom you say “you don’t understand”, we DO understand that as soon as you start consistently approaching then that problem will be solved. So, do it!

  59. @Rollo “I worry that guys like Elam (and Roosh to a lesser extent) will be the public face of the manosphere as it receives more notoriety. ”

    This is why we need your unique voice. I refuse to link to any other site to represents the manosphere, simply because I have not found a site that approaches these questions with such composure. I have given therationalmale to some intense feminists, and they really have not much to say in response. You do not post click-bait, but anyone can see that Roosh’s stuff is exactly that. It does more harm than good in my opinion. I know you have to be civil to RoK for political reasons, but don’t get caught up in that shit. My only criticism, and I hope you will listen to this, is that you do not base your theories on established psychological or sociological research. This is the only criticism of your work from people I have linked it to that I cannot disagree with. It’s largely conjectural. However, most philosophical treatise do not, so it’s somewhat forgiveable, but there is so much research out there that can support what you say, it’s disadvantageous not to explore it.

    Please keep at it. Help us Rollo, you’re our only hope.

  60. “My only criticism, and I hope you will listen to this, is that you do not base your theories on established psychological or sociological research. This is the only criticism of your work from people I have linked it to that I cannot disagree with. It’s largely conjectural.”

    This is a fine point. Though men with common sense will see the truth in your words, the weaselly academic type will scoff at the lack of corroborative research. It can only help your case, really.

  61. “I feel like there is an inverse of that where the unsuccessful get so used to things not going their way that attempting relationships is what feels abnormal and being alone is the norm. In many ways social stamina is like a muscle and it atrophies without use. This is one of the big hurdles I’ve faced as I’ve become quite the shut-in since high school and even being in a crowded grocery store saps my energy quickly. Adding in the bar scene or pick-up just feels out of reach. It’s a frustrating problem that I haven’t really found any real solution for.”

    This was me not too long ago, and still is in a way. Sexual success won’t really change this aspect of your character, speaking from experience. I still feel lonely in crowds and generally dislike status whoring social circles, even though I can play the socially savvy guy and get laid when the opportunity presents itself.

    It is difficult to break from this shell. I’ve considered volunteering at a nursing home lately, in order to get out of my own head and give something back to the world. Don’t really have the answers, but hang in there. You aren’t alone.

  62. Zen – it is work. It is a more than a job, it’s not enough to just show up. It is being disciplined day in and day out. You have to keep pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Every time you step out of your comfort zone, and experience awkwardness or adversity or get blown off by some girl you tried to engage in conversation – THAT is a step in the right direction. Every time you could go out, but choose to stay in and watch tv/porn/gaming, that’s the only thing that will prevent you from going forward.

    You know that as a man, your upside is limitless as you get a bit older. When I was your age, I had never kissed or fucked a girl either. Now i’m about 10 years older than you are and know that if god forbid my LTR ended tomorrow, I could go out and hook up with a chick that same night. Isn’t that what you want – that freedom and flexibility where you have sexual options, and can act on it or not at will? You know what you don’t want – ok, good – but what DO you want? That’s step 1. Then you have to work tirelessly to achieve your goals. There are all kinds of social scenarios which are advantageous for someone trying to build a great social life – volunteer groups, young professionals groups, meetup happy hour groups, church groups, it’s endless. Also check out the advice I gave to Softek about going out to a local bar where there are a fair number of women, simply sit down at the bar, order a beer, watch the game, and chat with people around you.

    Also commit to inner work. This also is WORK. Write out your affirmations and your story and repeat them morning, noon, and night. Suspend any disbelief in this process i.e. ‘oh this is cheesy bullshit’ etc – no, it is not. It is critical. We all have an inner dialogue at all times and you need to make your inner dialogue work for you. There is no way around this.

    Your story could be “I am worthy of great things. I am committed to achieving all of my goals. I deserve great, rewarding relationships with women and men. Women find me attractive and can see me getting more attractive with age. I am a masculine, sexually attractive man who women are naturally interested in when I’m at my best. I keep working to be my best every day and know that my abundance of opportunities is limitless, and that’s an exciting prospect which I am grateful for.”

    Hope that helps brother.

  63. Re: Rollo’s ‘lack of academic-industrial-complex-endorsed empirical corroboration’ – I see Rollo reaching out to Martie Haselton, who is employed at UCLA. That place is about as ‘Cathedral’ as it gets.

    Some other ideas for Cathedral-endorsed academics whose published works might jive well with Rollo’s philosophical essays and charts etc – Abraham Maslow, early Wayne Dyer (NYU), B.F. Skinner, Ivan Pavlov…I know that mentioning these infamous names is hardly informing Rollo of stuff he doesn’t already know, but maybe we get the ball rolling in that direction and brainstorm further (if it’s a sticking point wrt wider acceptance of his work). It might be easier to form natural linkages from these old-school academic titans to Rollo’s work than we’d think…

    1. I actually cite many sociological and psychological studies in my book and my posts – most notably Hasselton, Gangstad and Pinker.

      The problem is that for every study, experiment or meta-analysis, you’ll always have critics google another ‘study’ that counters whatever one you base a premise on. Either that or they cherry-pick out of context quotes from your own sources to build their own narrative (as Aunt Giggles consistently does).

      The idea of course is to tar pit your debate opponent in such minutiae that they devote themselves to refuting the refutations of still more counter-refutations that they lose sight of the original premise. For example, Susan Walsh hand picks very out of context points in Dr. Martie Hasselton’s meta-analysis of over 20 years of studying the empirically provable phenomenon of female ovulatory shift behaviors. That meta-study is derived from more than 100 experiments and studies performed over the course of the past decade, but unless I have the patience to be an encyclopedic resource of those studies (not to mention my readers must have the same level of dedication to the same attention) all it takes are select out of context bites of popularized ‘truithiness’ to misdirect perception. Particularly when that perception is unpopular or counter to an ego-investment.

      So it becomes an issue of seeing the forest OR getting lost in the trees, especially when your detractors would rather you stay lost in the trees because the forest is too ugly a truth for them to confront.

  64. @ Zen

    As a fellow virgin, I’ll say this: abandoning the mentality of being a virgin is essential.

    I tell myself this: “Even if I *wasn’t* a virgin, I’d still want sex right now.”

    What matters is what you want right now in this moment. What do guys who’ve had a lot of sex have, if they aren’t having sex right now? Options. It’s their mentality.

    It doesn’t matter what needs were or weren’t met in the past, because the past doesn’t exist. It isn’t real. It happened and it’s over. All that exists is what you hold about your past in the present moment. Even guys that have gotten laid dozens of times only have memories — and memories aren’t real. It’s how we hold them that matters.

    A guy that’s gotten laid plenty of times in his life who hasn’t had sex for a while will want to have sex as much as you want to have it. It’s just that he doesn’t have the mental baggage of believing that sex is impossible to get and that he has no way of getting it. He doesn’t freak himself out about it.

    I say that even with scars all over my body from self mutilation, and ‘mental scars’ from almost committing suicide and being committed to mental hospitals.

    And I also say that with some sexual memories. Yes, it all really happened, good and bad. But is it happening right now? No. Every moment is a fresh start.

    Having sexual experiences in the past doesn’t make me feel any better about my sexual frustration right now, because I still feel like I have no options. And even those “good” memories I hold as bad in my mind, because it just feels like a reminder that the sexual experiences I had were flukes and that I’m powerless to ever experience it again.

    And even though I’ve had sexual experiences, I still cling onto the “virgin” label for some reason. It’s a way to justify the pain I’m in. Even though I’ve had sexual experiences, I hold onto the idea that just because my penis has never been inside a vagina, all these hurtful beliefs I hold about myself are true — that I’m inferior to everyone else, that I’m less than other guys, that I’m a misfit, that I’m an outsider, that I’m an outcast, unwanted, unlovable, unattractive, undesirable, helpless and powerless.

    See how we psych ourselves out and do these things to ourselves? Virgin or not, varying levels of sexual experiences. It’s what we hold within ourselves about ourselves that shapes who we are. You can really see that when you consider the idea of letting go of identifying with your painful past, and how much resistance you have to it.

    I’m more comfortable sitting at home by myself contemplating suicide than I am going out somewhere and approaching some girls. And God forbid I succeeded — what would I do after I had sex with them? There are all these fears and anxieties lurking under the surface. And if we don’t deal with them, they’ll keep coming back and haunting us.

    Rational Male is very good for guys that want to learn how to have better relationships with women. But you need to be in a state of mind where you’re ready to apply the knowledge, and that comes from doing the inner work.

    I highly recommend Faster EFT to anyone who’s willing to try it. You can learn it for free by checking out Robert’s videos on the channel “HealingMagic.” It’s a coping skill and a tool for inner work that surpasses anything else I’ve found. This one video (it doesn’t get into the process) seems very appropriate for this discussion:

  65. Heheh,..here’s a funny story. I went over to the NPR link about the Eliot Rodger’s story – which of course is entirely one-sided with regards to the manosphere. So I drop a couple comments on the Disqus thread letting them know I’d be available whenever they want some balanced discussion about it.

    I get a response from a guy who says, “I’m with you man, and I love your blog, but NPR is really for a highbrow audience and I think the manosphere jargon wont resonate with the college educated 25 to 45 demo.”

    This was after David “Manboobz” Futrelle, and Andrew “Nerd-Feminist” Chu had just struggled and sputtered for every word they could muster in the discussion panel.

  66. I still think Rodger’s problem was his taking a *woman*’s approach to life: show up and be pretty. And I think that that particular problem was pushed on him by the influential women in his life, notably his caregivers: his mother, his grandmother, his stepmother, and his babysitter. Probably the world will never know exactly why he wanted to act like a *woman* in his life, but I think once you see that that is how he acted then you have to acknowledge it.

  67. I was surprised Futrelle was so ill-spoken, myself. He sounded unprepared. I do think he could hold a civil discussion with a more moderate representative of the Manosphere though. That might be the meeting ground. Don’t get involved with his commenters though. They are emotionally fragile.

    1. @Kate, I sincerely doubt it. The manosphere gave Manboobz a new sense of direction around 2010, before that he was just another sperg trying to make a name for himself by 5th wheeling Jezebel and HuffPo.

      Now he relies on RoK click-bait and reheats the same “outrage” over and over from the same 4 or 5 bloggers he’s got a hard on for.

  68. “Rodger couldn’t believe that his BMW, his nice clothes, first class jet setting lifestyle, and his money couldn’t get him laid.”

    My dad bought me a convertible my senior year in high school to improve my chances with the opposite sex. It wasn’t until I learned game (from my first girlfriend no less) that I became successful with the ladies. That was back in ’62 when game – as a serious subject of study – was unknown.

    She did dump me for some one else – what else is new? – but not before she had headed me in the right direction. Thank you Joan!

  69. Rollo. Your brilliant work has got me back in the gym. Eating clean. Dressing sharp….

    None of that matters (much). Attitude is 10,000X more important.

  70. Rollo,

    NPR commenter: “I think the manosphere jargon wont resonate with the college educated 25 to 45 demo.”

    Despite claiming to be a fan, the NPR commenter seems to assume the faulty premise that the Manosphere is an outgrowth of frat boys and proles. That’s not right.

    “College educated 25 to 45” plus male plus add 5 years on both ends strikes me as the core demographic of the Manosphere.

    Why? Because we’re the ones who’ve been most indoctrinated in the blue pill and alienated from our essential masculinity, and reacting to the alienation with the critical faculties of the Manosphere. The reason that Manosphere ideas might not resonate with someone in the “college educated 25 to 45 demo” is not because of intellectual refinement, but rather the hold of ‘politically correct’ blue pill indoctrination. Like Neo in the Matrix, disaffection and doubt are prerequisite for the red pill, followed by finding or being found by a Morpheus offering the red pill.

    The NPR commenter implies that male sex/love/mate alienation is something inferior and unimportant to be marginalized as declass rather than a serious social problem that urgently needs to be solved. That view is a problem.

    Also, Rollo, have you seen the animated short, A Relationship Story by Jordan Cutts, that Roissy tweeted? http://youtu.be/eb5NWtv-SIM

    It hits on the major themes you cover from a nice guy POV. I had a similar experience with the same schema, same value judgements, and the same fall-out. Jordan’s experience strikes me as a typical gateway experience for nice guys shocked by the ugly truth. Indeed, he asks typical questions. His cartoon might serve as a good basis for a lessons summary. Anyway, because I’ve had a similar experience, I’d like to see you break it down and analyze Jordan, Alexandra (the girl), and Taylor (the other guy). There’s even an ancillary tie-in with Elliot Rodger as far as the ‘obnoxious jock’ vs ‘supreme gentleman’ value judgement that Jordan makes.

  71. Why? Because we’re the ones who’ve been most indoctrinated in the blue pill and alienated from our essential masculinity, and reacting to the alienation with the critical faculties of the Manosphere.

    The Blue Pill regime is not something new. It was going on in the 50s. Just not so organized. Think “romance movies”. Everything I knew about women I learned from romance movies. – it didn’t work. Then my first girlfriend, Joan, set me straight. In 1962.

  72. @Rollo That’s a lot for anyone unfamiliar to really grasp with any depth, especially when their ‘investigations’ need to be easily interpreted by an 8th grade reading level and attention span
    Make that fifth grade reading level with the unchangeable belief that if a famous or familiar source says it (or allows it on air), It is true.

    The message will fail as long as the messengers choose ignore the fact that ALL content that reaches the majority of people receives unlimited funding (like this): http://bit.ly/1rJqeal It sounds organic, like it’s just another radio listener calling in, but note how many key words discussed at ROK about the E.R. (Elliot Rodger) script are embedded in the monologue of the Psychologist. The script is a million steps ahead with a globally addicted audience. The voice of reason and logic is competing with unlimited sources of funding and with influence that creates the conversation. Yes, it can be changed quickly but few I the ‘sphere are ready to understand how to shift the conversation. It’s easier to complain.

  73. @ Zen

    Rollo makes a topic-relevant point in his post ‘Reality vs The Internet’. “All the tools a guy will have at his disposal to practice don’t amount to much if he doesn’t understand why those tools work in the first place. Similarly all the theory in the world is useless until you develop an application of it by trial and error.”

    Stay with me here. As a cricket player we refer to a batsman getting his first run as “getting off the mark”. As such, the bowling side puts a lot of extra pressure on the batsman to not let him get off the mark – why? because once he does, he’s off the dreaded zero (or “duck” as we call it) and he’s got some momentum. The pressure is off – he’s felt bat on ball, got off the mark and now more optimistic of more runs to follow.

    Now Rollo and others may disagree here and call this another buffer, but, you wouldn’t be the first nor the last virgins to visit a ‘professional’ to “get off the mark”. Call it a cop-out, but I think this may serve a purpose in this case.

    1. You get laid and get the monkey off your back
    2. Hopefully you get an understanding professional that will let you take your time and have a positive ‘first time’ experience.
    3. Once you’ve experienced the real deal, it might give you the extra incentive to go out there and get it yourself for free.
    4. It builds confidence for when you do get a girl to come home with you
    5. You avoid any chance of any girl getting ASD when you do get her home – possibly pushing you over the edge! Or even worse, the girl is a total starfish dud and/or you get performance anxiety.

    If the above is simply out of the question I totally respect that, and I don’t advocate this as any more than a once off thing.

    I stand by my and jf12’s previous advice – approach approach approach and try not to be so outcome dependent.

  74. @ Softek

    You make an interesting point –

    “A guy that’s gotten laid plenty of times in his life who hasn’t had sex for a while will want to have sex as much as you want to have it. It’s just that he doesn’t have the mental baggage of believing that sex is impossible to get and that he has no way of getting it. He doesn’t freak himself out about it.”

    Wow man, this applies to me right now. I was spinning a couple of plates but now find myself with none. It’s been a month and I’ve probably honestly opened 10 women in total (not nearly enough) mainly in bars. I got one back to my place for a SNL but she had massive ASD I couldn’t get around – so for me, this is a long dry spell (other than when I was a 9 years married beta lol).

    My point is, that on one hand, yes I’m going through a bit of a dry spell, but on the other hand, with a reasonably average notch-count of (~50-60) for someone my age (42) with 6 months of Game / Red Pill awareness, law of averages tells me one is juuuust around the corner – so I don’t freak out.

  75. Wow, I wasn’t expecting so many direct responses to my post but I appreciate it all the same.

    Some responses:

    @Stuttie – I would say I’ve read quite a bit of Rollo’s work, although I haven’t gone back and reviewed every archived piece.

    The point you bring up about my use of the word meaningful is interesting and illustrates the cognitive dissonance I’m going through when trying to figure out what I even want. Casual sex… relationships, I don’t have a reference to know how much intimacy I even want in my life.

    I’ve read plenty on PUA tactics. Advice for us virgins is always to get laid ASAP, I guess it’s not a bad goal but I can never really work up any sense of urgency. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t thirsty but mostly I just want to feel like I have the power to get out of the social rut I’m in and move on with my life.

    @jf12 – I hear you, approaching is critical. I’m not looking for a quick fix to my problems. There is work to put in but I have trouble mustering up any level of enthusiasm. It’s hard to break the habit of a solo lifestyle. I wouldn’t even call myself a loner, it’s just that typical day to day life is enough to fulfill me, but I didn’t use my early formative years to add room for sexual fulfillment. As you say, if the thirst ought to be enough. It just hasn’t been.

    @Rollo – That’s cool with me.

    @cryo – It’s nice to hear that point hit home for someone else. I’d say that’s one of the more frustrating things I’ve encountered. I don’t think introversion is an excuse not to try at all or is 100% to blame. But it does make it a bitch to get the ball rolling. I don’t have any delusion that sex will suddenly change my personality but I’m not sure how much of an energy adjustment I need to take the first few baby steps. Nor do I know where that energy adjustment will come from.

    My job involves working with schizophrenics, recovering addicts and the like. It’s a great thing to flex your empathy and work to assist those less fortunate. It’s not going to work miracles though and what you get out of it will vary greatly from day to day and depends partially on the people you’re working with and how responsive they are. Just remember, it’s a two way street, but it’s a good idea and I say go for it.

    @Steve H – I appreciate the foot in the ass. It’s hard for me to find that in my life right now because I’ve recently moved and broken off from what little social circle I had. And when I’m left to my own devices I just put my head down and am perfectly satisfied to be at home all the time when I’m not at work.

    I’ve done a lot of soul searching, and unfortunately I always come full circle to just wanting to be left alone most of the time. I have hobbies that I get a lot out of, learning piano and making music. I’d like to add in pottery to the mix. The problem is I have no context for actually doing things is a way that helps my social life. I’ve spent an excessive amount of time on time waster bullshit sitting at home. But I’m still sitting at home when I’m doing the more satisfying hobbies. I don’t jam with friends, I like to make music on my own.

    Until recently I lived in a rural area that was very restricting but I do need to look at volunteer groups now. And I admit to being cynical about things like affirmations. Every time I try to talk to myself in the mirror I start laughing and making silly faces at myself. But that’s a wry, deflective humor that doesn’t help solve anything.

    @Softek – Stepping away from one’s past is critical. It’s also difficult to do. It’s something I haven’t focused on enough. The anxiety and fear bubbling beneath the surface is something I can relate to. It’s worse if you learn to hide it well because it’s so easy to let things fester. And the fear of success is a killer. Fear of rejection and failure is there but it’s the fear of breaking new ground that fucks up so much potential.

    I agree that there is a misguided notion that the manosphere as a whole is directed at bottom rung people to pull them from the depths. It’s more for guys who have had some success but didn’t know why, or just broke up or want to get laid in less time. Personally I’ve never felt like the target audience. There’s the weird imbalance where I don’t need pointers on how to be funny or have engaging conversations but I’ve thoroughly psyched myself out of sex and relegated myself to a life of loneliness.

  76. @ Zen

    I’m a very good guitarist, have been playing 11 years, and have only played out a handful of times. Every single time the crowd went nuts.

    But stage fright and general anxiety took over and I stopped playing out. Never did it regularly, and even though I’ve always wanted to start a band, I stuck to solo performances. Even now as I’m getting back into playing I can only think of recording an album on my own. It would be great, and I’d love it, but there’s a part of me that really wants to play music with other people and play gigs. I have the hard part down — being very good at playing guitar. But the harder part for me is getting out there and pursuing people to play with. Just like sex.

    You sound a lot like me. And I can definitely relate to feeling out of place in the manosphere.

    For you and me, the hardest part is going to be getting out. I have spent so much time alone, never had a circle of friends in high school, dropped out of college years ago after only attending for a month, and I never went back. I never wired my brain to ‘normal’ experiences with sex and friends and stuff like that.

    I also have only gone out to a bar a couple times and all the girls had guys with them, and although the bartender was pretty cute, I felt intimidated because I’m so used to being alone, and I didn’t want to be awkward. I got really anxious so I just didn’t say anything. It’s like my brain can’t even conceive of the idea of “opening.”

    One other detail, I live with my parents, and I’m extremely self conscious about that. I’m not making enough money right now to support myself independently and so the anxiety of that is tremendous. I feel like I can’t even earn the ‘right’ to pursue sex until I’m out on my own, and the idea of being out on my own feels equally impossible to having sex.

    And there’s the reason I’ve considered committing suicide so many times. Literally feels like I’m trapped and I can’t get out and as the years go by I just feel like I can’t take it anymore.

    But I’m determined to break the cycle. And if I can do it, anyone can. I really want to share this with you, especially after what you said about affirmations:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc0m_bMFKWY

    Excellent video. We both have to realize that we ARE affirming things every single day. And what we’re affirming is social awkwardness, shyness, being isolated, being lonely, and being unhappy.

    I’ve relegated myself to a life of loneliness too. Stop it! This is the affirmation we have to clear out. Positive affirmations will do absolutely nothing when our primary MO is self-imposed isolation and misery.

    When we start clearing out the bad, the good has room to enter. Even now, the thought of going to a bar is less intimidating after I watched that video, and can step back and realize that I’m psyching myself out.

    Having sex and having friends and fun is second nature for most people. For whatever reason guys like us have adapted to a life of isolation and it feels impossible to get out of. TV, bars, schools, restaurants, everywhere you go, you see ‘normal’ people doing ‘normal’ things, and it can be torture.

    But all that pain and loneliness and the feeling that you’re broken, the belief that you’re so different from other people that there’s no hope for you — that is a negative thought pattern. But it’s a thought pattern that we both developed in order to protect ourselves. Maybe from the humiliation, shame, anxiety, of putting ourselves out there and being open to rejection — because being open to rejection goes hand in hand with being open to acceptance.

    Step 1 is realizing these thought patterns for what they are: thought patterns. We’re psyching ourselves out. Still virgins — and the belief is that we always will be. This doesn’t have to be so. In order to have the sex and connections we want to have in our lives, we have to let go of the loneliness and despair in order to make room for them.

    We’re few and far between, but there are guys like me who are struggling just like you are. There’s hope for us — I completely believe that. And it starts not with positive affirmations, but clearing out the negative affirmations. We have to let go of the familiarity and identity with our isolation and suffering in order to grab onto familiarity with abundance, happiness, personal power, and peace of mind.

    Again, I highly recommend Robert’s videos on his channel “HealingMagic.” This is good for everyone, but especially guys like us. If you catch yourself wanting to listen to depressing music, beating yourself up, feeling lonely and miserable…look through his channel and just force yourself to watch something that sounds like it might be useful to you. It will be very hard to do it, but by choosing that instead of reinforcing negative thoughts, you’re already taking a step in the right direction.

    There’s no glory in your pain, and there’s no glory in mine. It’s safe to let it go and to start pursuing things that will make us feel good and happier about our lives.

    And as a personal challenge, we both should force ourselves to get out more. If approaching girls is too anxiety provoking, just go to places where girls exist and get used to going there regularly. Whether it’s a bar or a restaurant or a meetup group or whatever. It is important to actually think of places you could go — I myself tend to avoid doing this.

    Just put ourselves out there, make ourselves visible. That alone would be a huge improvement. And I bet the more we do it the more comfortable we’ll get with the idea of pursuing girls, and we’d get more comfortable with it without having to consciously think about it.

    You deserve to be happy as much as I do. We’re not asking for much! Most people have what we’ve spent our whole lives wanting, without even thinking about it, and their minds are focused on other problems.

    This is an achievable goal. Focus on clearing out the negative self-perceptions, be nice to ourselves, and make an effort to get out into the world. Baby steps. Even going out to eat or going out for a drink instead of eating and drinking at home.

    I’m glad you shared, by the way. You’ve reached out here, I’ve reached out here — now we just have to take this willingness to make ourselves visible online and apply it to face-to-face life. We have the power to improve our lives. It’s very important that we believe that.

  77. Zen: “I agree that there is a misguided notion that the manosphere as a whole is directed at bottom rung people to pull them from the depths.”

    The Manosphere isn’t not for them, either. They are acknowledged. It’s just that men on the “bottom rung” often have a deeper handicap to overcome in addition to the normal range of issues. For them, the Manosphere provides essential parts of the answer, but not the whole necessary solution. As such, the Manosphere isn’t providing them the wrong answer. The answer is right, just short of prerequisite parts.

    As Softek points out, these men may otherwise possess promising qualities. However, the deeper handicap, unseen but manifesting in abnegating behavior and repellent social vibes, is holding back their lives. For them, solving the deeper handicap needs to be added to the standard Manospherean to-do list.

    Elliot Rodger wasn’t wrong that his looks, background, clothing style, world travelling, car, etc, should have been attractive. They at least weren’t negative qualities. At the same time, he repeatedly pointed out his life-consuming social anxiety, especially his inability to approach girls. Rodger was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He was also born with an iron chain on his ankle.

    What Rodger pointedly did not do in his manifesto was place ultimate blame for his problem on his deeper handicap. However, given the amount of text devoted to it, albeit without explicitly adding 2 and 2 together, I strongly suspect he knew his deeper handicap was to blame. Rodger did a lot of self-improvement stuff within his comfort zone, but he never overcame his deeper handicap to the point his self-improvements could make a difference. He trained for a race and desired a prize he was too phobic to compete for.

    Again, the Manosphere, red pill, Game praxeology, and positive masculinity provide the right answer, just not the whole necessary solution for men with a deeper handicap. For them, MGTOW with an eye toward Game may be a necessary baseline stage, a la M3, or if unable to overcome their deeper handicap, their permanent bachelor home.

  78. @ Eric “Elliot Rodger wasn’t wrong that his looks, background, clothing style, world travelling, car, etc, should have been attractive. They at least weren’t negative qualities. At the same time, he repeatedly pointed out his life-consuming social anxiety, especially his inability to approach girls. Rodger was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He was also born with an iron chain on his ankle.”

    Well said.

  79. Watching this dynamic in action on the NBA finals half time show at this very moment.

    The whole thing’s scripted but the woman’s part just ‘feels’ so contrived. FI writ large on mass media, go figure.

    Can’t say I’m surprised to see mass media bitching out….more cheerleaders, less talk.

  80. you missed a very important point Rollo…

    the beta PUA hate kinda guys, fail with game, but at the same time they are to some degree disgusted (as many players are), with the fact that women have become such outright whores….

    the romance is lost in favor of a few shots and a fuck in the rest rooms….

    not all men want that, not all men want ONS and bed hopping and sex on the first date….. in the same way that not all men want to scoff drive through fast food in the passengers seat of their car…..

    i think that many men who come across red pill, subconsciously wrestle with this cognitive dissonance and have trouble rationalizing what it is that bothers them about the whole scenario…

    sure i can learn game and hit the local bar and get laid …. but what if i’d actually like a loyal girl to be in an LTR with….. women have almost entirely dropped the ball on that goal… PLUS… they forever have one foot in the divorce court, egged on by mainstream media, their BFFs, their jealous bitter divorced mothers and etc. etc. etc.

    so there is an under current there….. the old fashioned romantic notion of a chivalrous guy locking down a wife is completely dead and buried… gone….

    to the point that a man needs to learn game, sweep a woman off her feet into a ONS situation, the same night he meets her, fuck her and then decide if he wants to proceed further….

    subconsciously this is a kinda hellish existence of fornication like something from the pits of hell…. (no i’m not religious)….

    whereas real courting, without immediate sex, was the basis on which lovely innocent and decent relationships were built on for thousands of years….

    you can’t reinvent the wheel, there is fornication and there is love making…. the two are not the same thing…. and a relationship built on the former is unlikely to last very long.

  81. @ Softek – get a grip on yourself man… it’s easier said than done sure… but at one point or another you have to accept that fact that no one really gives a fuck about you…. so you have to take the same attitude….

    this might sound strange i know, but essentially – just stop caring…. embrace the dark shadow that’s hanging over you…. find it and absorb it…. get out there and do something with yourself… anything and just get on with it… no one really cares that much …. no one is going to bite you for trying…. no one is out to get you… encouragement will only come once you pass the threshold of being valid in some way…

    listen to this…. i am sure your situation is nothing like as tough as this

  82. @Rollo “I actually cite many sociological and psychological studies in my book and my posts”

    I’ve read pretty much everything you have written on here, including your book, very rarely is there a source. Your book has no reference section or footnotes. I just went through all of Best of Year One and couldn’t find a single link or reference to an established study published in a peer reviewed journal. A couple of established theories were referenced like Social Matching Theory and Stockholm syndrome, and you briefly mentioned Dr Martie Hasselton, but that’s it.

    I think it’s better to have evidence that is a bit contestable than no evidence at all, but in my limited research I consistently come across peer reviewed research that would back up what you say. As I said, it’s the one thing I can’t back you up on, which is a shame because I’d love to have a one stop shop I can link people to that will tightly, logically and scientifically make the points that you do.

  83. This is my first time posting here on RM, I know my comment will be TL:DR for most but I’d really like to get this off my chest. I’ve been catching up slowly on your material Rollo- I was reading through ‘Casualties’ when the news from Isla Vista broke. To be honest with myself, with the wrong brain chemicals when I was younger, I also could’ve ended up in the same dark self-imposed vacuum of hate as Elliot.
    Finding blogs like yours hasn’t ‘saved’ my life necessarily, but it’s brought incredible relief with the clarity you offer. An opportunity to learn how to develop and improve myself mentally as a Man, away from the horseshit my male-hating mom filled my head with from infancy. Having a weak, subdued workaholic father didn’t help.
    I came floundering into the manosphere a few years ago- troubled by the same questions many guys I know are these days- ‘Why are things like this… when I’m respectful and kind to her? And yet she seems to still be mesmerized by the asshole she was with before me who screwed other women under her own roof?’

    For me, Red Pill awareness has built a bridge across the canyon of cognitive dissonance between the way I was raised (‘BE NICE!’), and my life-long observations of the ways humans actually relate to one another.
    It’s also made a lot more sense out of the dynamics I observed in my family growing up – My grandfather died a withered, beat-down, pathetic emasculated shell. An entire life spent under derisively hateful, condescending lamentations for the crime of completely supporting my Grandma, providing her several beautiful children in relative comfort. A woman who never had to work a day in her life once married and- to this day- still pines for the Ace who was crumpled in an aluminum ball somewhere Over There before she married my granddad.

    I was compelled to respond to your post here b/c my wife has recently started glomping onto the feminist drivel that’s been slinging around after Isla Vista, yesterday she was referencing some FB post she saw linking MRA sites to mass casualty events. Nevermind the fact that Elliot appears to have been about the least masculine person you could imagine, and had immersed himself in a community actively despising PUA and players.

    And I was concerned about that linkage happening long before this tragedy- It can be very easy to get lost in the bitterness of mainstream pickup TRP blogs, and IMO the blatant racism & homophobia in some do much more harm than the good that can come from helping men arrive at a clearer understanding of themselves.

    I’m struggling to figure out what I’m going to say to my wife the next time she brings this kind of stuff up. The fact that I could be a fucking poster-boy for a lot of the material you discuss. My ingrained beta behaviours up to this point have lead to a one-sided relationship I’ve allowed to develop with her. A woman who at one point when dating said she ‘loved!’ giving head, not that I’d ever know that now.
    It seems sorrowfully way too late for me now to recognize that I should’ve run screaming the other direction when she’d complimented me for being different than the other guys she ‘used to like’. So for now, I just laugh at her and mentally hit the highway with a backpack these days when she mentions for the thousandth time how ‘hot’ it is when I do the dishes.

    To close, I appreciate you for the work you are doing. I still have a long way to go though in figuring out how to maintain sanity knowing what I’ve always suspected deep down- that I’ll never, ever be rewarded for being a responsible and good person, the way I was promised by those I trusted most as a child.

    The most important thing to me, at this point, is to raise my son differently.

  84. “Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader like bbb experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife.”

    62 year old here. I happened across your blog because I googled something similar to the above sentence. I’ve been married for 35 years and I love my wife but we’re not in love the way we used to be. To be blunt I’m not nearly as sexually attracted to her as I was just 5 years ago even. She’s fit and attractive enough for her age, and I often get compliments on how young and handsome I look for my age. We both eat right and exercise regularly. The thing is, I retire in a few years and as all us oldies are being phased out through retirement, every year one or two new employees are brought on board and many of them are women and a few have openly flirted with me. I’ve flirted back.

    As I’m a man of my word I have not let things get beyond flirting nor would I ever. But I am toying with the idea of suggesting to my wife that we transition from our current monogamous model of marriage to an open one. I would have never considered such a thing even 10 year ago, the thought wouldn’t have even entered my mine, but being post menopausal there is no risk of her becoming pregnant and quite frankly, I couldn’t care less if men find her attractive or if she’s into them anymore. What loss would it be to me if she also had a fling?

    I don’t know. I think monogamy is a tad ridiculous at our age. There’s nothing to be jealous over anymore so why not just have some guilt free fun?

  85. Elliot Rodger didn’t do what he did out of a feeling of entitlement…at least not consciously…he was simply operating on a mentality he was programmed with by liberal egalitarians and feminists growing up which says if you dress nice, act nice (in a wussy wimpy beta male chivalrous sense) and be a productive go getter type women will naturally swoon over you and give themselves to you. Elliot believed their bullshit and it backfired on him and now the feminists and liberals are crying that he was “entitled” when it was they who gave him this mindset of entitlement to begin with. No one ever framed it as “entitlement” to him when he was alive. He simply took it as the world’s natural way of being as told by the liberals and their radfem allies: ie do this, do that and women will be sure to reciprocate just “have faith” and running with that mindset of: “I give you something/provide a certain way of being about myself ie supreme gentlmeman/nicely dressed/well groomed/well mannered” “You give me something in return ie love, companionship, validation of my worth as a man and sex” etc Elliot couldn’t square the peg of the advice not working in reality and proceeded to “go off the reservation” and now unsurprisingly the radfems/liberal egalitarians throw him under the bus not wanting to claim the monster THEY created with their “pretty lies”.

  86. You have your own wave lengths, powerful and disruptive.

    Oh…… the transitory nature of human affairs.

    You are gems, each and every one of you.

  87. “IB is willfully ignorant which is why she’ll never read or acknowledge that post. It’s more comforting to persist in her delusions because it’s a catharsis for her otherwise meaningless existence.”

    Apparently you are incorrect about the fact that IB will never “read and acknowledge this post.” Given that truth, is it possible you could be wrong about a couple of other things,too?

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