From The Myth of the Quality Woman:
Back when he had a terrestrial radio show Tom Leykis did a topic about this: He had everyday women call in and tell their stories of how they used to be sexually (i.e. slutty) and how they are now. He came up with this after driving past a grade school on his way to the studio and seeing all of the women there waiting for their kids to come out and wondered about what their lives used to be like in their childless 20s. This was a wildly popular topic and the confessions just poured in like all of these women had been waiting for years to come clean anonymously about the sexual past that their husbands would never dream they were capable of. Each of these women sounded proud of themselves, almost nostalgic, as if they were some kind of past accomplishments.
This is why I laugh at the concept of the Quality woman. Don’t misinterpret that as a “women = shit” binary opinion. I mean it in the sense that most guy’s concept of a quality woman is an unrealistic idealization. There’s not a guy in the world who committed to monogamy with a woman who didn’t think she was ‘quality’ when he was with her. Even if she was a clinical neurotic before he hooked up with her, she’s still got “other redeeming qualities” that make her worth the effort. It’s only afterwards when the world he built up around her idealization comes crashing down in flames that she “really wasn’t a Quality Woman.”
An interesting internal schism occurs for women during the latter half of the Security and through the Developmental Phase. The first aspect of this psychological schism is a drive for an unalterable sense of security. As she matures, the priority for an enduring security intensifies with each child she bears and / or each life incident where that degree of security is tested.
For the married woman who consolidated upon her best available provider male, this intensification usually manifests itself as a ceaseless series of shit testing, not only over his capacity to consistently deliver an ever increasing need for that provisioning, but also the Alpha suitability she convinced herself that he would mature into later. The primary conflict for her during these phases is that her provider male’s SMV Alpha potential never quite looks like or compares with the idealized memories of the Alpha men she entertained in her party years.
I’ve written several essays regarding the dynamics of the Alpha Widow, but at no other phase of a woman’s life is she more prone to mourning a prior Alpha lover than when she enters the Developmental stage. This is when the security a woman was so incensed to in her Epiphany Phase becomes a burden, but still a necessity of her life. Unless a man has reinvented himself and capitalized on his SMV potential so significantly as to separate himself from the prior impression of ‘providership acceptability’ a woman initially expected of him, five minutes of Alpha experience will always trump 5-10 years of Beta dedication.
If women can realize the Alpha Fucks aspect of hypergamy during her party years, and then realize the Beta Bucks aspects of hypergamy after the Epiphany Phase, then the internal schism a woman experiences in her Developmental phase becomes the difference between her reconciling those two aspects within the man she’s currently paired with.
The second aspect of this schism is a marked re-interest in the Alpha attributes of either the man she’s currently paired with, or the Alpha attributes of men outside that pairing. This side of the schism is particularly frustrating for both Alpha and Beta men paired to a woman experiencing it.
Deal with It
The more an Alpha man actualizes his SMV potential – through maintained (or improved) looks, career, maturity, affluence, status, etc. – the more a woman’s need for enduring security becomes threatened as her SMV consistently decays in comparison. A woman’s logical response to this new form of competition anxiety usually manifests in two ways.
The first being an intense motivation to domineer and control her relationship by placing herself in a dominant role. She assumes (or attempts to assume) headship of the marriage / relationship by way of convenient conviction or from a self-created sense of her husband’s (really all men’s) untrustworthiness bolstered by social conventions that insist women need to be the head of the house (i.e. “she’s the real boss, heheh”). Her insecurity about her own comparative SMV manifests in her demanding he ‘do the right thing’ and limit his SMV potential for the sake of a more important role as her (and their family’s) dutiful provider.
Of course the problem with this is that a man acquiescing to such dominance not only loses out on his capacity to maximize his SMV peak potential, but also confirms for his wife that his status isn’t as Alpha as he’s confident it is. This Alpha disenfranchisement will play a significant part in a woman’s Redevelopment phase.
The second logical response is apathy and resentment. A disconnect from her SMV peaking mate may seem like a woman’s resigning herself to her non-competitive SMV fate, but it serves the same purpose as a woman’s insistence for relational dominance – an assurance of continued security and provisioning as the result of his limiting his SMV potential. This apathy is, by design, paired with the guilt that her mate is more focused on his own self-development than the importance he should be applying to her and any family. The result becomes one of a man chasing his own tail in order to satisfy this passive insecurity and failing passive shit tests.
In either instance the seeds of a man’s decline are rooted in his ability to identify this schism in relation to how it aligns with his SMV potential at the same time it affects his long term partner. The problem with the schism is that for all the limitations a woman would emplace against a man actualizing his SMV potential, the same limitations will also constitute a significant part of her justification for being dissatisfied with him during her Redevelopment phase.
Redevelopment / Reinsurance
The Redevelopment phase can either be a time of relational turmoil or one of a woman reconciling her hypergamous balance with the man she’s paired with.
The security side of this hypergamous balance has been established for her long term satisfaction and the Alpha reinterest begins to chafe at the ubiquitous certainty of that security. Bear in mind that the source of this certainty need not come from a provider male. There are a lot of eventualities to account for. It may come from a ‘never married’ woman’s capacity to provide it for herself, the financial support levied from a past husband(s) or father(s) of her children, government subsidies, family money, or any combination thereof.
In any event, while security may still be an important concern, the same security becomes stifling for her as she retrospectively contemplates the ‘excitement’ she used to enjoy with former, now contextually Alpha, lovers, or perhaps the “man her husband used to be”.
Dalrock has long covered the topic of women entering the Eat, Pray, Love phase very well, coining the term “She was unhaaaaaappy,..” This is the justification call of for women entering the Redevelopment phase.
Depending on when she consolidated on long term monogamy, her kids are at, or almost at an age of real independence. It may even be at the “20 year itch” empty nest stage I described in the last essay, but there is a fundamental reassessment of the man she’s paired with and how his now realized SMV potential has either proved a good bet, or a disastrous misstep. And as with the various prior phases of maturity, she finds there are convenient social conventions already pre-established for her to help justify the decisions she’ll make as a result of this reassessment.
The binding, cooperative arrangements of childrearing that necessitated her drive for security gradually decrease in importance, giving way to a new urgency – pairing with someone “she really connects with” before her (imagined or otherwise) SMV / looks are entirely spent on the provider male she now loathes the idea of spending a future with. This is the turning point at which most Beta men, hopefully reliant upon the false notions of Relational Equity, find themselves on the sharp end of the feminine hypergamy they cognitively dissociated themselves from for a lifetime.
It’s not all doom and gloom however. Depending upon a woman’s degree of self-awareness and realism about her late-stage SMV, the decision may simply be one of pragmatism – she understands she’s with the man who can now best embody a hypergamic balance for her in the long term – or she genuinely has a long term (feminine defined) love and affinity for the man she’s paired with, who finally Just Gets It. Other considerations factor in as well; it’s entirely possible his SMV peak will endure longer than her reassessment of him will take to determine, religious conviction may play a (albeit sometimes convenient) part in this reassessment, or she may realistically assess her own SMV as decayed to a point where staying with her provider male is her only tenable option.
There’s an interesting trend in the divorcing schedules of Baby Boomers that strongly correlate with this Redevelopment phase reassessment I’ve described here – it’s called Grey Divorce:
Americans over 50 are twice as likely to get divorced as people of that age were 20 years ago.
Jim Campbell, 55, of Boulder, Colo., says he and his wife grew apart after 34 years together. “The No. 1 best thing in common that my ex-wife and I had was raising kids,” Campbell says. When their two sons grew up, he says, “we just didn’t have enough activities, passions, interests that were in common. And when the boys were gone, that just became more and more — to me — obvious.”
As is the wont for a feminized media, the focus is on men who divorce their wives, but statistically it’s women who initiate over 70% of all divorces. It’s important to bear that in mind when considering the psychological impetus for women’s Redevelopment phase. In spite of that oversight, the ‘grey divorce’ stats dovetail with this mid-late life reassessment.
In the interest of fairness, a woman can also find herself forced into this Redevelopment as the result of a man who’d come to realize his SMV peak and became actively aware of how hypergamy had influenced his decisions for him. There is a minority of men who take the red pill or otherwise and exit a marriage they’d been ‘settled’ on for, or they may in fact want to redevelop themselves for the same reasons women make the reassessment and capitalize on what value their SMV has.
Regardless of how she comes to it, nothing is more daunting for a woman than to reenter the sexual market place at such a severe disadvantage. After the Wall, women dread the idea of having to start over in a sexual market place in which they are grossly outmatched, so even the slightest deviation from the ‘security forever’ script becomes a major ego threat. If that security is more or less assured, there are feminine social conventions ready to make that prospect more palatable. ’40 is the new 30′, “you still got it”, and of course the strong independent woman® brand offers a plan for ‘cougardom’.
Depending on a woman’s relative SMV (that is to say amongst her generation’s peers) she may entertain these convention more or less successfully, but this reinvention of a woman’s party years, still suffers from a need to reestablish a semblance of security after a point. While it may be ‘exciting’ to relearn how to maneuver in a new SMP, the underlying desire is still one of security.
Late Phase Security
Finally we come full circle and back to, an albeit new interpretation of, the same security a woman sought after her Epiphany Phase. During this late phase, that may last from a woman’s late 40’s, 50’s or even indefinitely, as a result of an inevitable SMV decay, the security side of a woman’s hypergamy swings into its final, permanent, position. It’s important to make the distinction that this security isn’t necessarily founded on financial provisioning, but rather an emotional, intimate dependence and acceptance for a woman from an acceptably masculine man – often in spite of a past that she would rather be (expects to be) forgiven for by virtue of her age and her perceived experiences.
While she may experience some desire to live vicariously through the experiences her now grown daughters or younger female friends in various phases themselves, her message to them is one of precaution, but tempered with the subconscious awareness of how hypergamy has set the frame for her past. This is the phase during which (hypocritically) women tend to cognitively rewrite their past for what they believe should be the benefit of younger women.
As an aside, I should point out that with the advent of the internet and the permanency of all things digital, this is becoming increasingly more difficult for mid-life women.
This is the phase during which a woman not only desires secure acceptance of who she is from a suitable man, but it’s also the phase she attempts to create a secure social paradigm for herself. To be sure this drive is firmly couched in a woman’s innate solipsism, but her desire for security extends beyond a want for her own personal, assured security, and to woman-kind in whole.
Women in this phase may be concerned for the futures of their daughters – and sons who may come into contact with women following the same hypergamic paradigm she used on their fathers – but the concern is voiced for society and women as a whole. Rarely is this social concern an admission or testament of her own regret, but rather it’s something she must address to reconcile the parts of her past, the undeniable results of her hypergamy, that she can’t escape.
Once menopause ensues that retrospective need becomes more urgent.
I understand that this series probably wont address particular personal issues some readers will want it to, but that’s what comment threads are for. As I stated when I started this series, I could probably write a more comprehensive book about this entire process – I may do just that at some point.
I also understand that while I can provide this outline, it doesn’t really go in depth into how a man might use this knowledge to his best advantage with a particular woman. However, my hope is that it will put certain behaviors and mindsets you find in a woman, and how they align or don’t align with this outline, into something more understandable for your individual experience. This is in no way comprehensive or meant to account for every woman’s circumstance, but rather to help a man with what he can expect in various phases.
It’s preventative medicine, not a cure to any particular disease.
Thanks for sticking with this.
Great series. My ex gf who was 34, tattoo of another guy’s name on her ass, history of unstable relationships, mother issues, unstable income came on like gang-busters. I had tight game but as time went on her push-pull nature made control of the relationship difficult. She finally left in the cruelest possible manner and I was left sitting there wondering wtf just happened. I made a few weak and misguided attempts to reconnect before finally consciously committing to a HARD NEXT. This series helped me understand that pain I felt would be short-lived if I worked on myself: stay… Read more »
Interesting comments of the redevelopment phase. Dammit, Rollo, were you watching my wife and I?
Got me thinking about my parents. They are forty years married, two kids, boys, myself and my older brother.
Fantastic series of essays. Informative and thought provoking.
One important factor, I think, in a woman’s reevaluation and security stages is perceived social status. If her husband is providing her with a social status that she perceives as comparing very favorably with her female family members and women in her various social circles, then she will be more psychologically satisfied with her current status, no matter how beta or alpha her husband is.
Great series. At 27 – I am seeing many things take place in correlation with breakdown of the graph. 1. Epiphany and transition My exes are all trying to settle down with lesser men than I who are the absolute epitome of safe beta providers while I am constantly shamed for being a player who never gave a shit aka I didnt give In to their bad behavior and now they’ve found the poor beta who kisses their feet. Funny thing is they all obey my every command, flirt relentlessly, get together and gossip about what I’m doing, and all… Read more »
Excellent Series. You are a MAESTRO !!!!
Perfection. The Preventive Medicine Ouvre of Tomassi
Don’t get married. Problem solved.
“If that security is more or less assured, there are feminine social conventions ready to make that prospect more palatable.”
I wonder if there is a male uquivalent to this life stage process, I’m finding that once a man crosses a certain age threshold (38?) his need for female validation vanishes, particularly if he has never married.
fyi “a ceaseless series of shit testing” also characateristizes the well-past menopause older woman. It never stops, never.
Slightly off topic. It took me a while but I finally understood the difference between a Quality woman and a hot Slut. When a man walks into a place with other women with a hot Slut on his arm, his sexual cachet with those other women skyrockets: several other women will try to be his woman before the night is out. But when a man walks into a place with other women with a Quality woman on his arm, his sexual cachet with those other women plummets: the other women will fawn all over the Quality woman instead of him.… Read more »
Johnycomelately – “I wonder if there is a male uquivalent to this life stage process, I’m finding that once a man crosses a certain age threshold (38?) his need for female validation vanishes, particularly if he has never married.” This is interesting. Probably related to the assessment that the likely hood of marriage and children is fast evaporating, and therefore the practical utility of women is reassessed as well. The need for female validation is thus re-valued according to its practical effect, which is to say it has none, or very little. If marriage and children aren’t in the offing… Read more »
Wow, honestly, I haven’t run into anyone who writes as well as you do about the way women think and what motivates them. I purchased your book (for a close male relative) and would recommend your writings to anyone who has eyes to see and time to read.
Great work Rollo, as always. It’s said that women hate betas, but I don’t think that’s really true. Women certainly do like having beta men around to do the beta things for them – protect, provide, etc. – while they have alphas around to do the alpha things for them [i.e. fucking the shit out of them]. Ideally, I think most women would like to get both from the same man, if possible — and some of them do. But, since it’s often difficult for them to do this — providers generally aren’t that sexy to them, for one thing… Read more »
@Dave-SS Good comment and one relevant to me today. I just had a text exchange with an ex gf who is a friend of mine who I dumped because of her bad behavior but remained friends with because I do genuinely like her. She is quite loyal to me and does anything for me…but is a pain in the ass…. We were chatting about an acquaintance of hers who was now with this beta provider chump. I was laughing at the absurdity of this pairing when she wrote: “yah but unlike you, he’s caring”… I had this as well from… Read more »
This article explains those elderly couples who are out “having a good time” yet appear to be incredibly miserable being with each other. I have seen many such in my time, and have sadly become one myself.
Younger men need to see such information long before they indenture themselves. I know that if I had, I would have made some different choices and had a better life because of them.
The late 40s/early 50s can be the worst time for women who, in their 20s, made the decision to “settle” for uninspiring male providers. Even if emotionally and sexually underwhelmed for many years previous, the couple still had the common ground of raising children to paper over the relationship cracks. Once the kids are no longer reliant on their parents, the man and woman in the bond are suddenly staring at each other with no empathetic mission. This dynamic can then go one of two ways. If the woman is blessed with kind physical genetics, she will still be glamorous… Read more »
@vinay3543 “If they’d had bided their time, this wouldn’t be the circumstance.” Unintelligible, but wrong anyway.
Great article.Been following your page for some weeks now and it has really cemented what I found out the hard way.I wish some one had opened my eyes during my Beta days (I am 27) but I would question whether I would have payed attention. I guess it takes that first heart break for guys to quest for “the truth” however bitter the pill is. I had taken some liking to a girl who was the same age as me in my late teen years but didn’t realize the world of hurt I was setting myself up for.I would follow… Read more »
@Shingi, RE: religious betas.
You should really join the comment threads at these blogs
Throw the psychology books away. This website is all you need.
Rollo, what’s next for you? A business passive incomr blog, weightlifting. Something for the renaissance man. You are awesome.
I would have been interesting to see how my parents interacted after I was done with college. Sadly, my dad passed away when I was 22, my mom was 49. It’s been 15 years since then and she never remarried or even went on a date. She truly believe they were “soul mates”(an idea I don’t personally believe in) but I sometimes wonder if they would have hit troubles once I was gone. It’s much easier to look back fondly when you miss the person either through death of just a breakup.
Just a quick PSA here: After reading Matt Forney’s latest article, I have permanently removed Sunshinemary’s blog from my blogroll and my RSS feed. I strongly suggest anyone else to do the same.
Due respect, I disagree with the attack on Sunshine Mary. Apparently she exaggerated her personal profile somewhere. That’s it? Given the jealous, slanderous really, backbiting in the Matt Forney link, maybe there is a reason that she takes anonymity to the next level.
I’d rather leave all that to them to sort out. I don’t entirely agree with Matt, I think he is extremely simplistic sometimes, but I’d rather break that association than have RM affiliated with it.
The best Rollo, simply the best.
For the man who is lucky enough to follow along with an open mind, this info will be preventative medicine. Nothing is worse than being caught by surprise by a wife (in particular) and the feeling of total helplessness and confusion as his whole world is crumbling all around him. I wish I had this information earlier in life. It would have saved me all kinds of pain.
This four part series is the masters program on understanding women that I never got the chance to take in college. Outstanding work here and I really hope this is the linchpin of your second book.
Epic blog series here Rollo…MUST be put into a Kindle-ready e-book!
@Ed & All, I’m torn as to whether I should write a more detailed, standalone e-book version of Preventative Medicine or to add it to Rational Male Volume Two.
Commented on this article in my blog: http://caprizchka.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/choosing-the-love-of-a-man-over-all-other-causes-is-rational/
Actually, doxxing is what has killed the Manosphere. There is no trust and therefore no community. You’d be better off cutting *that* tie, Rollo. Sort of the “what they’ll do with you, they’ll do to you” logic. I saw that CPS stuff months ago, but I know SSM is not above apologizing when she is in the wrong. Why don’t we all try exercising some patience this time and wait for the truth to come out instead of executing before there’s even a jury assembled.
Fascinating read as usual, RT. Where part 3 seemed redundant to me (I’m just finishing your book, on ~p.225), this seemed to break new ground. And in speaking to the 40+ crowd, it touched on understandings practically never sought by the PUA readership. There is such variability in women’s ages as they go through these steps. A woman who is subconciously aware of her declining SMV vis-a-vis her husband may employ the passive/active usurpation/’letting herself go’ strategies in demoralizing him – or in disincentivizing his healthy tendencies towards SMV accrual – well before the 40 y/o marker. This is so… Read more »
@Steve, considering the variety of circumstances a woman may find herself in, it’s important to look at this timeline as a sliding scale. I attempted to make concessions for this throughout the series, but I’m beginning to think the level of detail necessary to do the series justice is beyond the scope of what most blog readers have the attention span for. Re: SSM, I’d rather cut ties now than have that association. It’s nothing personal against SSM, or that I’m in any way siding with Matt, it’s just not an association I want for this blog. I realize Matt… Read more »
[…] Preventative Medicine – Part IV (The Rational Male) […]
Any timeline for the release of the 2nd book?
Honestly, my deadline was the same as last year, October 1st. However, this one’s going much smoother since I have a prior template to work from.
Exciting. it’s on the calendar
Sunshine Mary provides a different perspective that can be useful in reaching some types of women who have the potential to improve. Nevertheless, I am not a fan of all of her attitudes, especially the ones toward unbelievers. But is anything that Matt Forney wrote actually true? Or was that just another lame and vile attempt to increase traffic to his site? He tells us: “my first loyalty is to the truth”. Well, so is mine, so I decided to take a closer look. Since I don’t trust Forney, even though he has written a few superb articles, I checked… Read more »
I think you’re right Eon. I had some more time to review the ‘evidence’ since I got home and I think maybe Matt’s gone off the deep end. I’m not sure exactly what she did to piss him off, but between this and all the backpedaling I’m seeing a lot of ‘manosphere-bloggers-who-don’t-want-to-be-manosphere-bloggers-anynore’ do, maybe I was a little hasty.
I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt.
Someone commented earlier: “There are times when I start to second-guess whether “maybe they’re right…???” maybe I am too selfish or self-centered…” When women act selfish and self-centered and you don’t tolerate their b.s., the first thing they will do is accuse you of being selfish and self-centered. Maybe they’ll label you a “jerk” simply because you put your foot down and don’t tolerate any disrespect. The alternative (putting up with their b.s. and jumping through their hoops) is much worse. ****Shingi said : “I’m a religious guy and just want to point out here that I think feminism is… Read more »
Aristuppus – well said. And it extends well beyond the ‘I’m rubber you’re glue’ defense for selfishness alone. You seldom go wrong underestimating the extent to which a woman is purely projecting whenever she lazily descends into petty character insults, or lazily ‘questioning your motives’. What’s really going on here? Simple female translations: ‘I think that’s really shallow for you to think that!’ = “i am shallow and cannot accept this character flaw. but i have covert means of obfuscating how shallow i am, and the manner in which i am in fact shallow. so you cannot prove that i… Read more »
@Rollo: Never answered the “so what” in the conclusion. I get that there are tons of different circumstances and situations in the sex market and for guys out there…you’ve done a superb job analyzing and breaking down the stages of a female’s sexual/hypergamous life–but the conclusion wasn’t really dead on. Don;t get me wrong this series was phenomenal. Period. Great. I learned more than I thought I could about the subject. What would have made it even more powerful (something I would say CH does a good job at) is analyzing what the male should do and how he should… Read more »
How does it feel knowing you are greater than Freud and answered his eternal question.
For those who may doubt, a real world breakdown.
Manosphere is not a place for women. Period.
They can only be spectators.
Of course not to those starved for any type of female attention.
I really like this series, it’s a lot of truth. On the Quality Woman, men really do idealize what they want – but to me it’s also true that mothers no longer teach their daughters how to be good wives (to take care of themselves well… to have charm & purity but also be a sexual vixen – only for your husband). Women used to teach each other this, and they just don’t anymore. My mother had a very old book that is rare to find (if impossible) now, called The Fascinating Girl (and a married one The Fascinating Woman… Read more »
I have the tiniest of yapping little puppy dogs in that fight, having been banned by SSM after about two comments, but I’m saddened and sickened that she was chased off the internet, apparently by a vindictive woman. If we aren’t free to express online, then where are we free?
@Will, the conclusion isn’t a “point”, it’s a “region”. Rollo hasn’t led us up the rough side of the mountainous obstacle of female thinkings just to get to the top point, he’s led us around to the other side.
Great series. I’m 42 and go for women in their 30’s. Dead on … either they press for committment really fast (almost manic sometimes) or they try to get control of the relationship. Also completely accurate is the attempt to undermine a man’s rising SMV by consuming his time, derailing his workouts, undermining time with male friends…. all the while still thinking they’ve ‘got it.’ And when I let them go I get the shaming treatment. I’m just not strong enough to handle a strong, independent, vibrant, [exaggerated adjective here], ad infinitum; completely ignoring all of the complaining, negativity, stuck… Read more »
@johnnycomelately, “Stephen Hawking was asked what he thought about most during the day. In a classic, age-old form, he replied, “Women. They are a complete mystery to me.””
“these women sounded proud of themselves, almost nostalgic” Of course, they enjoyed themselves and miss it. I probably learned a lot earlier than most guys since I got involved with older women, and moved to younger women as I got older, so I was always the “dirty little secret” for these women. More than one would play the Madonna to the guy they were trying to rope into marriage and do everything under the sun with me. Sent more than one off to wedded bliss with a load inside of them (they got off on being f**ked in their wedding… Read more »
Re: nostalgia. If you think women hit the Wall at 30 and get nostalgic of all their proud moments running around when younger now that they’re “through with all that”, boy you ain’t seen nothing yet. Wait until after menopause, when a woman will *literally* be “though with all that” if left to her own druthers.
And now for something more positive…. I’m a fit 60, married 36 years. When my same-aged wife announced some years ago at menopause that she now lacked libido and started to let herself go, I simply told there that this was unacceptable. It wasn’t the deal I signed up for. Immutable decay is OK, it will happen at the same rate to both of us, but if it’s a matter of attitude, then it’s definitely not. But then rather than nag her, I redoubled my efforts to improve my own SMV and watched as a passive yet aggressive dread game… Read more »
@bbb, inspirational, thanks for this.
bbb, congrats on internalizing the key principles so well. The “nice” comment is especially true. For a woman, “nice” means a strong man who treats her with varying degrees of pleasantness…..a weak man can try to roll out the whole enchilada but without accompanying strength, he will never be “nice”.
Great post bbb. It is a unilateral decision by the man as to the direction of the relationship. Another way to put ‘continuously satiating her hypergamy’ or ‘maintaining soft dread’ would be to simplify it further: she must remain in chronic fear of you taking action.
There is no negotiation and no explicit dialogue unless she asks for it (and she is then in the selected position of supplicant, needing more info to ease her troubled mind). You retain the trump card: taking action. Whenever your imperative deems it wise to do so, no questions asked.
@bbb, she still initiates, sometimes? I mean, besides the usual. About the closest my wife ever comes to initiating is *letting* me instead of preventing me. The typical example is, during what I was led to believe was just another scratching of her back, she urges “Now down lower.”
Dijo sin hablo
[Oh, at least give him the Link]
@Rollo – Re @Shingi’s comment “I wish some one had opened my eyes during my Beta days (I am 27) but I would question whether I would have payed attention.” Your Conclusion at the end of today’s post is telling, Rollo. You want to have an answer to your own question, how to bring your insight to the eyes of young men who may be yet unwilling or unable to see, and yet you excuse the question away instead of attacking it. That doesn’t seem your style. In my humble opinion, your blog (and books) are doomed to fall only… Read more »
@Lucas, this is timely. Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader like bbb experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it (in fact I have a post in the can about menopause) but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts. From my earliest posts at SoSuave I’ve had men ask me for some… Read more »
It is apparent to me that dread needs to be dialed in with care. If too much she’d give up. What works for me is to occasionally point out (even if I make it up) how men in public are checking her out. This makes her notice women checking me out and more importantly, my (feigned) obliviousness to this. One of the best things about getting older is that the male sex drive also diminishes. It’s just that the male doesn’t hit the purported wall that menopausal women supposedly do. There is no reason that women can’t continue having sex… Read more »
@bbb, maybe the single most sexually interesting thing about aging women is that they experience orgasm harder. In study after study after study after study (the best ones being longitudinal studies like Rancho Bernardo), the older the woman the MORE satisfaction she reports, per sexual episode. Mixing in some personal experience, the obvious explanation is that the longer and harder it is to build up the more intense the release. Assuming there is (has to be!) a long and hard build up, which is the actual difficulty: due to decreased libido, the vast majority of older women insist on not… Read more »
Re: “One of the best things about getting older is that the male sex drive also diminishes.” Put another way, “men’s sexual problems and belief that sex ability declines with age are positively associated with their emotional satisfaction”.
Hey Rollo, I think Plagnol and Esterlin’s observation about men’s and women’s changing happiness is related to the realities reflected in the SMV charts and timelines, as I commented at j4g.
Anyone else using Firefox initially have this page blocked as untrustworthy? I did. People must be reporting the shit out of this site.
Rollo, Lucas – To me, the best RP writers and thinkers are extremely reluctant to push a narrow agenda. Why do so many demographic subsets strive to repurpose masculinity for their own ends? I suspect it boils down to something as simple as a primary deference to serving the female imperative (even visionaries like Deida fall prey to this). The far more effective, and less reductive, and less lazy route is to meet men where they’re at and help them from that place. Give men the tools, and tell them to get the fuck out there and create their own… Read more »
“Re: nostalgia. If you think women hit the Wall at 30 and get nostalgic of all their proud moments running around when younger now that they’re “through with all that”, boy you ain’t seen nothing yet. Wait until after menopause, when a woman will *literally* be “though with all that” if left to her own druthers.” “It’s just that the male doesn’t hit the purported wall that menopausal women supposedly do. There is no reason that women can’t continue having sex even if they have to pretend to like it.” “bbb, maybe the single most sexually interesting thing about aging… Read more »
@Rollo – Your reply makes me feel like I might have played a small role in helping you clarify your own position, which makes me happy. Keep up the good work, and I will keep reading.
Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.
Rollo you’re now the Prince Henry the Navigator of human sexual relations. Teach us steer by the stars, maintain the charts, and plot our own courses.
No doubt novelty adds to arousal and a purported lower libido at menopause could well be an excuse to avoid banging the old man, but in the absence of novelty and assuming skill parity (and plenty of lube), a husband’s superior relative SMV and his use of soft dread are still useful.
If a wife acts on a need for novelty or skill, then the superior SMV husband, after he recovers from the blow, can next her, hitting the ground running; perhaps leaving post-menopausal women to those who prefer them.
The root cause of all of this angst is simply the fact that men and women live for too long now.
Previously it was just 1) get married or knocked up at 16 or when menarche began 2) pop out couple of children before dying in childbirth at 25. If you lived to the ripe old age of 36, you would still be in your armpits with children and not lurking second time around in the SMP.
Women should be dealt with like stocks. Invest in the high value ones that have lots of upside and quickly sell the ones that are declining or show danger signs.
Listen to any Eminem song and you’ll hear the massive pain in his voice. Family breakdown and being raised by a single mother has very deeply wounded him. I think he is still on the edge even though he is now an adult and a super successful multimillionaire. Marry a western women and you have a 50plus percent chance of this happening to your son. From a 42 yo dad who is in this exact hell. I implore all young men. Marry the most selfless innocent and sweet young woman from a traditional country you can find. . The woman… Read more »
Man murders his wife in Denver: http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2014/04/homicide_du_st_paul_street.php
All the local news sites speculate that “pot edibles” may have been the cause. No discussion (even in the comments) of what we here know was the most likely trigger.
@titanic, to be definite, you mean to imply that the cause of a husband crying and arguing with his gad-about soccer-mom wife, bringing the children into the argument, trying to get her to kill him to end it all, before finally pointing the gun at her, might have something to do with him suspecting her of having an affair?
Rollo, I know this ex stripper who I banged 18 years ago. Found her on FB. She’s still kinda hot now in her late 30’s. She’s divorced, one fucked up kid on meds, managing a strip joint. So I figured a hit it one more time for kicks. She wants commitment before sex, but I think she has a serious STD (Hep B,C who knows or just bad game on my part). Pussy isn’t worth that risk to me, so I finally just told her that I wouldn’t commit to a woman that has been banged by at least a… Read more »
@jf12 … Yep, that’s what I’m implying. 🙂
@Softek Nice reference
Re: Sunshine Mary
Never underestimate a woman’s ability to look good in writing and in public, yet be very nasty off the record and in private. This is how some women manage to cook evidence and present a false picture in divorce and asset theft cases, not that the courts actually care about real evidence.
Even before Matt’s post, I’ve ignored all of Sunshine’s replies in blogs.
Knockout series here. And the motivation is perfect — to diagnose, not to cure. It reminds me of the years I spent watching my mentor work. All that time observing him sunk in even though I wasn’t skilled enough to put it into practice right away. Now I’ll be working on something and I’ll have flashbacks to watching him do a similar job, and it’ll help make sense out of the whole thing. Being aware of the situation is the first step to dealing with it. What happens when you freak out? You don’t think. Rationality is what men like… Read more »
What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads you to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for your better understanding and you create your own success with it?
Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.
Most men already know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they have the keys.
Softek, great to hear your story. It sounds like everything is working in the right direction and it is just a matter of time. Learning to detach oneself from adverse feelings and putting them into perspective is by far the most important skill to navigate. It only gets better from here. Keep the faith and rewards will come.
@ New Yorker Thanks. I appreciate it. Have to remind myself to keep the faith when there are no rewards, and especially when there eventually are so I keep my edge razor sharp. Getting a taste of what I want could lull me into a false sense of security and I’ll be right back at square one if I’m not careful. @ Rollo: For me, the biggest problem is the fear of using the keys. I tend to go into denial that I even have them or that they even exist because that fear gets so overwhelming. I’m afraid to… Read more »
To get what you want you must ask for more than what you want.
Kaiser – a late 30s ex-stripper “wants commitment before sex”? Your answer is “sorry, i’m not getting into anything serious”. Let her huff and puff…and call you back in a week looking to hook up. But now it’s on your terms. If she doesn’t call back? so what, acquiescing would be a choice of certain misery. you put your foot down and whether or not she ever calls back – she respects you deep down, and you’ve acted in alignment with respecting yourself. Softek – you put practical applications of asserting self-respect in a slightly different way than I’ve heard… Read more »
Softek, irrespective of how successful people have been, everyone has to remind themselves every day of what they can do. From what I have found, fitness and exercise can fundamentally change your mindset. Making that an imperative part of your day just like sleep can do wonders. Endorphins are a beautiful thing.
Re: keys. I post this here because, well, because I can. A young woman engineer that works in my building got funny-mad at herself in the parking lot. “Ooh, I can’t believe I was that stupid!” The smartkey clicker for her tiny odd looking Toyota (a Yaris, maybe, I forget) had just quit working. She bought it used a couple years ago, her first car. She was locked out! She wanted to know if I could run her to the Radio Shack at the mall during lunch for a battery, or drop her off at the dealer (a little further).… Read more »
I also have an engineer tale. While still in school, we had a late spring snowstorm during class. One of the engineering students had his fender crushed by someone else leaving the parking spot ahead of him (curbside parking). He’s standing there with a bunch of his chums, and they are all pondering what to do about this, as they had to get to work. i come by, and ask if he’s got a bumper jack (this was back when most cars did), and proceeded to pull out the fender so that he could steer. one of these mental giants… Read more »
jf12: bad for you. She’ll think you’ll tell somebody. When she is your boss she will make your life hell. You should have just run away and let her figure it out herself.
I had the company’s first woman corporate VP visit me in Tokyo. She was wearing a winter coat because she thought the seasons in Japan were the opposite of those in the US. I always wondered why I was laid off a few years later. You can’t make this stuff up.
Yes, men can be stupid also, and probably as vindictive too.
Just spoke to a guy at work who is getting married for the third time at age 35! What does he possibly hope to gain from this?
@Urban, men love idealistically:
Women love opportunistically:
Rollo have you seen this guy, Terrence Popp: http://www.youtube.com/user/redonkulaspopp
He’s excellent. He had an Incredible back story too
The more I think about this series the more I realize that it fundamentally encapsulates every single concept written about women, it is by far the best series of posts written in the sphere. It is a veritable capstone, the completeness of it is difficult to grasp. The only issue is that the chart is overwhelmingly complex (as it has to be), it incorporates so many topics that one can easily miss the detail: Male SMV Female SMV Male attraction attributes by female life stages: Alpha status Beta provisioning Female life stages by age and development Female sexual anxieties attributable… Read more »
I’ll say it again; if the four lessons in this series were expanded to book length, it would be a worthy complement to the first RM book. Give men the results based on peer-reviewed science, observable data and physiology and behaviors shaped by 100,000+ years of human evolution and they can make the tools they need to move their lives forward. Absolutely outstanding work here, and it stands apart from the pickup-artist end of the manosphere spectrum for this very reason. Pencil me in for TRM II. On a completely different topic, has anyone had personal experience with The Mankind… Read more »
@MikePhil, thanks for the props. I’m still on the fence as to whether or not to make this series (and expanding it) an integral part of RM v2, or to dedicate it to a standalone eBook.
Maybe make it a standalone, full book? Still debating. Thoughts anyone?
@bbb, nah, she’s a nice girl, with the occasional ditziness. I don’t hesitate to bring up the possibility of slight delirium induced by air microembolisms pushed into capillaries through microabrasions in vaginal tissue, but I’m not gonna say for certain.
A standalone eBook would be a good idea. There’s a lot of information to absorb in this series, and it would probably help new readers to have it as separate material. I think it’s different enough to justify it being a standalone book. I also would keep an open mind to using the standalone eBook approach for any other topics you cover that could fit the bill. These days, eBooks are selling like wildfire. That approach could help to boost your popularity and help get your message out there to more people, especially if your work gets a decent amount… Read more »
@Softek, I know you’re probably right. Ugh, I wish I could write full-time. RMV2 is the focus of my limited time now.
…because you know, wildfire sells. Who doesn’t want wildfire?
It’s been a long day.
Well, you could continue to put together yearly collections as well as write separate books. So, this series would be part of the Year Three book, but be more fully developed in its own book. Or You could enhance the yearly books by including new information not found in the blog entries. In that case, the Year Three book would have your further elaborations that were never posted. Or You could make this topic the focus of your Year Three book by writing new blog posts on your expansion of it. Those new blog posts would also be included in… Read more »
Rollo – I think there is a *huge* empty void in the marketplace for a full-length book. A book that is the go-to for guys who are thinking about tying the knot. As in a wise older mentor/brother/friend/uncle approaching the lovestruck young buck and saying, in hushed tones: “before you propose/go through with the wedding, read this book ‘Preventative Medicine’ by Rollo Tomassi” with a slight nod and a wry smile. I’m not aware of any book that serves this purpose that isn’t risibly chock full of bullshit. E-books are popular, but they are a dime a dozen. Maybe I’m… Read more »
@Star-Lord – the purpose of my life is not to make a woman happy or to provide her with substance to maintain her fairytale illusion. I have said this type of thing many times to women. I cannot make a woman happy, only she can do this. The best that I can do is enhance her existing inner happiness. This is ironic given that many women proudly proclaim their independence and at the same time are desperately looking for a man who will make her happy. @Rollo – if you would, please make this series a separate e-book. In my… Read more »
@ BlackPoisonSoul From SSM: “I would like to let readers know that I have reached the very difficult decision to stop writing my blog. This is a sad and hard post for me to write, but I feel that an explanation ought to be given here. I have been the victim of a vicious (and needless) smear campaign; this is not a problem per se, but my children have been brought into it and their safety and security has been compromised. As a mother, I cannot continue to write this blog if it endangers my family.” Did you notice what… Read more »
^hm… I know I got into it with SSM over her tactics of attacking whores and prostitutes for being what they are. Her self-righteousness was really disturbing because she is Christian, and Jesus was merciful to fallen women. It’s weird I have compassion for her over this strange scandal… whether she was fooling everyone or not, she is still a person. I think that when you go after people like she did (brutally attacking people when they are down), you kind of get the same treatment eventually. I know I have in my life, and I’ve seen many others have… Read more »
I respect religious people who show their religiiousity through their actions. Those who have to orate their religiousity are posers who only fool themselves with their pompous verbiage.
@ girlwithadragonflytattoo “I think that when you go after people like she did (brutally attacking people when they are down), you kind of get the same treatment eventually.” Could you provide links to some specific examples of this, “brutally attacking people when they are down”? And “scandal” is not the proper word to use here, as applying to everyone involved. There is a difference between her and her opponents, you know, the ones who fabricated and misrepresented. I recall that she was accused of “of attacking whores and prostitutes for being what they are”, when she used Bible verses as… Read more »
@blurkel, yes, partly it is due to missing out on the experiences, but partly it is due to too much serenity in the belief that “someone” will bail them out. I bet in both our examples the person would have figured it out if they were stuck on a deserted highway w/o phone service.
Matrix-wise, we’ve made it easy for women to live their lives this way. I think the only possible way to get women to tend to live a different kind of life is to make living this way as uncomfortable as possible. But since even slut shaming is off the table, I don’t see what tools we have left except apocalyptic.
hmm… Eon she didn’t just use bible verses to condemn people… she loved (enjoyed) and constantly engaged in “slut-shaming,” and encouraged her followers and commenters to do that kind of disturbing harassment/bullying as well (which means she not only did something really disturbing and sinful, she actually led other people to think that slut-shaming is biblical and right… she led people astray… purposefully. It’s actually one of the worst things a leader can do, and leaders are always under pressure, and will always be judged (by God and by people) harsher because of their great influence. When you have that… Read more »
blurkel, Euro engineering experience at its finest would have persuaded the savvy student to get a French-made car.
That fender would simply have dropped off onto the pavement at the slightest nudge. Probleme, officier?
So! I have finally located that last Edsel’s owner!
@ girlwithadragonflytattoo “hmm… Eon she [SSM] didn’t just use bible verses to condemn people… she loved (enjoyed) and constantly engaged in “slut-shaming,” and encouraged her followers and commenters to do that kind of disturbing harassment/bullying as well (which means she not only did something really disturbing and sinful, she actually led other people to think that slut-shaming is biblical and right… she led people astray… purposefully. … but she really messed up, and God doesn’t let his own children get away with things like that. It isn’t good for us to get away with behavior like that, we don’t grow… Read more »
Rollo, Since you asked, here’s what I’d like to see: I purchased your first book and enjoyed it thoroughly. I remarried last year, and its content helps prevent me from losing attraction. There are several men (young & old) I know well who I’m motivated to share the original RM with. But I hesitate because of the references to some of the PUA sites and the quotes from blog commentators identified only by their handles. I think you could reach a larger audience and make this important message accessible to more men with a more (sorry to say) mainstream presentation.… Read more »