16 Years On

On July 20th my wife and I celebrate our 16th wedding anniversary. It’s no secret to my readers that I have a very good marriage and I’m constantly asked what my ‘secret’ is for keeping things positive, or the Oprah classic, “what do you do to ‘Keep It Fresh™‘?’. The manosphere is littered with stories of guys and their divorces contrasted against the stories of single guy’s decaying LTRs or dealing with recovering from them. I try not to make a habit of personalizing things that gloss myself, but when I do just understand it’s more from a sense of being a wild card. Guys with successful marriages (a dubious term at best) don’t really have the motivation to come to forums like the manosphere and share their insights. Why bother if that area of one’s life is more or less taken care of? So in light of this, I’ll share a few things I’ve learned in the last 16 years that make for a good marriage from my perspective.

Let me begin by giving you all some background; Mrs. Tomassi is my first marriage and Bebé Tomassi is my one and only daughter. As I’ve said before, by society’s current standards I’m a freak. I’m a freak in that I met my wife and we dated for 8 months (non-exclusively for 4) before I proposed to her. I was 28 when we married. After 2 years being married we decided to have one child – by design. My wife expected me to be a Man and I in turn expected her to be a Woman. I did not knock her up and then marry her. She was not a single mother, nor did she have excess baggage from previous relationships.

This is important to know, because when I relate stuff like this I often get the “well, you did everything right” response, when in fact every bit of what I enjoy with my wife today is due to me doing much more wrong. I had to unlearn what 26 or so years of feminized and emasculated teachings had taught me up to that point. Admittedly unaware, I had come across a unique situation – a woman who actually wanted a Man to be a Man, and in all honesty I was completely unprepared for it. I was an AFC (really a recovering AFC by that point due to a psychotic  relationship prior to all this) and there was no community back then to inform me otherwise. I had read some of Dr. Warren Farrell’s books, but that was the extent of my own self-understanding with regard to my own gender conditioning.

Being the Driver

Now I had come across a woman who on our first date insisted that I drive HER car. My truck was a piece of shit of course , but after years of this gender equalism brainwashing, a woman, upfront, wanted me to take control. Since then I’ve always been the driver (with the exception of her driving us home after I had my wisdom teeth pulled). This was symbolic of how the next 16 years would play out.

Mrs. Tomassi is no push-over and she most certainly gives me shit tests even to this day. In fact I’ve described marriage as one life long shit test and I still hold to that, but from the begining she expected me to be positively masculine – to be the decider, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them. Even in my worst failures, the fact that I attempted honestly was more important than the outcome. This may not have been the case in the short term, but in the long term is where you can see the appreciation in the behavior. We compliment each other in our understanding of our gender roles.

When we met my wife was dating two very rich men (we were non-exclusive, remember?), I had 2 nickels and a beat up pickup truck to my name. Mrs. Tomassi is a medical professional and the men she’d dated prior were E.R. doctors and specialists; guys making well over $300K annually. They had boats, cars, large homes, status, dispoasable wealth, and yet despite all of that I’m the one she pursued and locked in with (her Mom thought she was insane to marry me at the time). They had it made, but for all that wealth they were still clueless when it came to being Men – they were uncomfortable in their own masculinity. A lot of guys mistakenly believe that having a large bank account is the key to getting women, and while that might help in the short term, in the long term it’s to your own detriment (she’ll end up with half after the divorce) if you don’t ultimately kill the inner AFC and fearlessly embrace the postiveness of your own masculinity.

The Ingredients

There are so many aspects I can detail about what makes for a good marriage, but all of these really boil down to two things, genuine desire and mutual respect. Too many couples become complacent and comfortable in their marriages and this leads to a decline in both of these areas. A certain degree of subtle anxiety and constructive discontent is necessary for a good marriage. That comes off as negative to the plug-ins of the Matrix, but it’s really what makes each partner want to be better for themselves and each other. Taken too far it becomes abusive, but none at all and the marriage becomes stagnant which is equally dangerous. In the right proportion, this anxiety makes for a marriage that retains it’s mutual desire (which is really analogous to Interest Level) and mutual respect.

So how does this anxiety manifest itself? An easy example is staying in shape together. I can honestly say my wife is still hot (if not more so since the boob job). I want to bang my wife as often as humanly possible; how many men married for 10 years can make that statement? My wife is a piece of ass and I see guys eye her all the time. Likewise I’m a bodybuilder and keep myself in peak condition. I get women in their 20’s flirting with me often enough, and this confirms for her and myself that we are both desirable people – this is one example of this anxiety, and we both recognize it and respect each other for it.

There are other ways this anxiety can be applied, for instance C&F (cocky & funny) goes a long way in marriage. Mrs. Tomassi loves just enough C&F attitude from me to reaffirm her perception of my confidence. As I said earlier, marriage is a life long set of shit tests and carefully used C&F is a tool that can be used to diffuse a lot of these before they even happen. Confidence is still the thing that makes a woman want a man, even in marriage. Generally a shit test IS a test of confidence. Prior to marriage, it’s latent purpose is to help a woman determine whether a guy can provide for her long term security. After marriage, a shit test is used to reassure a woman that she married the right guy.

I’ve come to find that Game is even more necessary in marriage than when you’re single – there’s far more at stake when the commitment is intended to be for a lifetime.

I have a lot of rules I pop off with about LTRs & marriage. I emphasize that a man not even become monogamous until he’s 30 and that he shouldn’t consider marriage until his mid 30s. Again, I state this not because I did so myself, but from my side of the fence I can see the huge advantages to doing so now. Marriage should be a last resort, something to be forestalled until a Man, by virtue of years of experience, has the ability to recognize with measurable accuracy, a woman who deserves what he provides her. The PRIZE mentality is essential. A man must be a Prince first, before he can be a King when he marries.

After 16 years of marriage I can honestly say there are no appreciable advantages (outside of raising children) that a man cannot enjoy single that he can married. That’s not meant to be pessimistic, but rather a caution to emphasize how important it is to disabuse yourselves of this AFC, romanticized, marriage-as-goal mentality. It’s also not to say marriage is never worth it – just that marriage is complete advantage for women with negligible, if any, benefit for men. Marriage will either make a man’s life or destroy his life; enter into thinking about it like this and you’ll make a better decision. Is this person deserving of what I provide? Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a man has to make in order to fulfill his commitment of marriage. Entering into a life-long binding commitment of fidelity that offers a man very little appreciable advantage, and knowing the totality of the risk he’s assuming in accepting that sacrifice will never be fully understood or appreciated by the woman he marries. This is why you have put your head into thinking whether she’s deserving of your provisioning, security, confidence, attention, etc. even when it goes against what you think is your kind and good-hearted nature. If you’ve come to a point where in spite of the acknowledged risks you still want to make that commitment, you must be as self-concerned about marriage as you would be in saving your own life.

178 comments

  1. Thank you so much for sharing this. What a great thing to read today. I love the car story. I like the fact that you had a short courtship. Not to say it should happen overnight, but I don’t understand dragging it all out. When you meet someone worthwhile, its like, well, let’s get on with it. Strike while the iron is hot and then keep striking. There is such a thing as relationship momentum, I believe.

    Its a bit of a sad commentary that not being married previously and having a child after marriage and by design makes you a manicorn. This used to just be considered normal. One of my favorite courtship stories comes from the man I adopted as my dad. He was on spring break during collge, he looked around the beach, saw a girl with the skimpiest bikini of all the girls and he said to himself, “That’s the one for me.” LOL They’ve been together ever since. However, in his day, it was probably much easier to pick someone and make it work than now when everyone has such a complicated history and people in general seem so damaged.

    I’m glad you incuded what you did about not being financially endowed when you met. Men sometimes feel they need to establish, or in some cases re-establish, their empire, in order to even feel like they deserve a woman when all women want is to be with them: spend time together. What would be more fulfilling to a woman: snagging a rich husband, or being part of his success? If a man consistently chooses making money over spending time with someone who loves them, it is a red flag. Afterall, how many millions does one need? There is some deeper issue there.

    I also like that you talked about staying in shape. So much is written about the woman staying in shape,utits also important for the men. How much effort does it really take, afterall? Although this is potentially more of a challenge as often the man is older than the woman.

  2. “I’ve come to find that Game is even more necessary in marriage than when you’re single – there’s far more at stake when the commitment is intended to be for a lifetime.”

    Yes — read all the game stuff, then delete the parts about “Next…”, “Approach, Approach, Approach”, and close percentages (where 10-20% is good), and what are you left with? You really have to stay on the beam.

  3. I coined the term “Driving Mr. Daisy” almost 12 years ago when a good friend told me about another friend of ours being driven around by his wife. If a man wants to make himself look like a pussy, the best place to start is to allow your girl/wife/etc to tote your lame ass around riding bitch.Do guys realize how pathetic & weak they look when sitting shotgun with a chick at the wheel. As my buddy stated so long ago about our passenger seat “Princess” of a friend “Be a man, and take the wheel”.

  4. backtrack to the point where you were up against the other two guys your fiancee (at the time) was dating… how did you DHV consistently in that situation? Was there an inflection point in your game or did it come off more naturally through your experiences up to that point.

  5. Since your wife was dating high status men before you, do you think there is a possibility these men had other options? Maybe she knew these men could always get younger, hotter, tighter in the near distant future? Hence a woman’s insecurity will take a safe bet? What happens when you stop gaming her.. a divorce?

    Either way, I hope the best for you.

  6. “she expected me to be positively masculine – to be the decider, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them.”

    Gold.

  7. “Marriage should be a last resort, something to be forestalled until a Man, by virtue of years of experience, has the ability to recognize with measurable accuracy, a woman who deserves what he provides her. The PRIZE mentality is essential. A man must be a Prince first, before he can be a King when he marries.”

    Gold 2

  8. I understand all the ‘what ifs’, it’s exactly why I write what I do. I fully understand the variables that may or may not have influenced that decision to commit and I know my experiences are no road map to marital “success” for everyone.

    Game (for lack of a better term) is part of who I am now. I think too many guys think of Game as a constant effort; like something or someone they have to continually float to maintain their frame. In the beginning I’m sure this is true, but there comes a point where you either internalize the mindset or you get to a point of exhaustion in maintaining what you think of as an act.

    A lot of Game-aware guys think that being in an LTR consists of this constant pushback on his frame by his woman, but after she’s accepted your frame the context shifts to his personality being the dominant. If I were to “act” beta with Mrs. Tomassi at this point I would be “acting” out of character. Game is my default perspective now and it would take an act of effort for me to deliberately screw up my Game. So it’s really not a situation or keeping your Game Chi flowing for fear of divorce, but rather recognizing what aspects of your relationship require active Game.

  9. one of the best posts about marriage written by married guy. Realistic to the core. Your recipe – be masculine as hell, lead, be your A plus – active, good job, good physique and your wife MAY be satisfied. You, sir understand this business very well. Anyway, after some nasty years in this marriage industry I feel the duty to tell young guys one thing:

    Do not think that the woman you see before marriage is the same woman you will be seing a couple of months after ceremony. Till mariage, woman is in acquisitive mode. Her imperative is to persuade and “catch” her male. In this mode she is able to become whatever the script calls for hooking the man. She will share your interest, your religion, adopt your viewpoints, likes and dislikes. It is subconscious – she honestly feels that way. She would pass the detector. This protean ability, this chameleon syndrome is very lethal weapon. Dude suddently feels he has found her best friend and soulmate. So he signs those papers.

    After marriage, there is a big shift in powers and in female psyche as well. She now HAS the man. She will never respect him the way, she did before. Now he is HER man and another layers of her psyche activate. The survival and resplication program. Your role changed. You are now expected to WORK, PROVIDE, PROTECT and OBEY. You role is to ensure her survival and survival of her kids – and if necessary – die for her. You have a serious role now and you better fulfil it. Young fellas, be warned. If you are not prepared for this hard and tough role, DO NOT MARY. I witnessed many divorced men with amputated souls, cos they were not up to the task.

    If she will not succeed in catching you, her psyche changes and she may leave you. She may express that she now “hates” you but you will have her utmost respect for the life time. You have not surrended, you were the man, you were her hero. There is a special portion of her dreams where you will be immortal. Every romantic book ends when woman catches the man. There is a reason for it. Case/man closed.

  10. Congratulations to both of you. And thank you for a great post.

    It takes both man and woman ingesting the red pill realization to make a marriage or LTR successful. My husband and I were married long before we got it. So for us, getting red pilled meant looking at what we have and what we could make it. I cannot work on him, and I cannot work on our relationship; working on me and what I bring to the table is the best I can do. I work on my femininity and use it to compliment his masculinity. I believe this is girl game. For me it mainly means being respectful, responsible and fun to be with. Recognizing and accepting my own limitations means I will not compete with him; recognizing his limitations means that I know he’s not always going to get everything right and accepting that is part of who he is being human. I feel like I appreciate my husband, at least I try to show him that I do. This is what I’ve gotten since the red pill so far.

  11. >>marriage will either make a man’s life or destroy his life; enter into thinking about it like this and you’ll make a better decision

    Really good post. Personally I’m against the concept in practice given my experiences and all the statistical and anecdotal evidence (and in theory too given it seems to pander to the feminine imperative rather than registering a protest by failing to comply against a corrupt system) except where kids are planned/involved, as you’re always at a disadvantage and the risks/costs being so high but maximum respect to anyone who makes it work. I think your guide to leveraging the situation is very good.

  12. (Gregg, I’ve said it before and a few others have said so too but you need to blog or perhaps do a guest blog for Rollo or someone else.)

  13. You don’t make a robust enough connection between game for pick-up and game for marriage, and Athol Kay’s self-help Oprahism, while welcome insofar as he addresses a need, is not sufficient to gentle the bullish nihilism/hedonism of pick-up game.

    Your students not only need to understand how to transition from pick-up to LTR, [Plate Theory – Transitioning]they need to be made aware that the transition exists and is possible without trading in one’s man card.

    With your background — half of your adult life in the game, half of your life in LTR — you are perfectly positioned to lead pick-up veterans out of their inevitable ennui and into the well-balanced manliness you have discovered in marriage. But that requires putting pick-up in its proper perspective, rather than (unintentionally? or, at least by implication) counseling impressionable betas that it is a goal for life sufficient in itself.

    Or point to another PUA who successfully navigated the transition. The only ones I am aware of even trying are not worthy of emulation, from the risible new-age commitment ceremony of David DeAngelo to the tears-on-the-shrink’s-couch of Tucker Max.

    Matt

  14. @Greg. Very well put:

    After marriage, there is a big shift in powers and in female psyche as well. She now HAS the man. She will never respect him the way, she did before. Now he is HER man and another layers of her psyche activate. The survival and resplication program.

    The key to success here is never allowing her to completely, 100% “catch you.” That way, the romantic storybook never ends for her. Or, as Rollo puts it, there’s “a certain degree of subtle anxiety and constructive discontent [that’s] necessary for a good marriage.”

    I’ve been married for 23 (mostly happy) years this month. The most troubling periods have been when I’ve permitted this very sort of complacency to set in; when I’ve allowed that “other layer of her psyche to activate.” This is like allowing her to close that romantic storybook.

    As a man, one keeps the storybook open and keeps the pursuit alive through a combination of both frame and keeping one’s self attractive–both physically and psychologically (e.g., Rollo’s reference to cocky funny).

    I’d say that right now the biggest source of friction in my marriage occurs when my wife observes that other women are attracted to me. Yet I know deep down it would be a far, far worse condition if they weren’t!

  15. Hi Rollo, my first time commenting on your blog.

    Guys with successful marriages (a dubious term at best) don’t really have the motivation to come to forums like the manosphere and share their insights.

    That quote inspired me to out of the lurker’s hood. I’ve been following your blog for a while, but am more familiar with the forum you frequent. I guess I’m posting to kind of say, “You’re not alone bro.”

    A brief overview: I started working on overcoming being an Omega / AFC at around 16. Likewise at the time there wasn’t a community for me to tap into so I stumbled and bumbled along for three hard years to recreate myself. I wouldn’t call myself ‘alpha’ but I’d say I have a lot of alpha characteristics. Been happily married coming on 14 years in November. I got married at the same age (28) as you and you’re 2 years older than me.

    Maybe you’ve covered this before on your blog, maybe not. Every wife I know has an ingrained discontent with the status quo. They always want something more – a bigger house, new sofa suite, new bedroom etc. IMHO one of the most essential skills a successfully married man has to have is the ability to say, “No.” He shouldn’t capitulate to every demand his wife makes, even if he has the means to do it. He should then evaluate the request at his leisure and determine if it is a wanted luxury or a necessity. Most times these requests are a woman’s shit test to see if you will stand up to her. If you can’t stand up to her then you won’t be able to stand up for her. Her “safety and security” hamster is spinning at full speed at that moment and she’s looking for assurance from him that can protect and take care of her.

    Women are going to try and bend you to their will. It’s in their nature. It’s up to you as a man to draw a line as to how far you’re willing to bend; and as a man to know if the thing you’re bending on is not going to compromise her respect for you. My advice to anyone married is to be very clear on your personal boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behavior from your wife. Expect those boundaries to be challenged – relentlessly. Enforce those boundaries and apply consequences to them. E.g. One of my personal boundaries is: “I don’t do dishes.” I’ve been very clear on that from before we were married. In the fifteen or so years that we’ve been together I estimate that I’ve probably washed dishes once a year — and those are times when she has been ill. And believe you me, that boundary gets challenged constantly. Through various indirect twists and turns and attempts at shaming. However I hold strong… and guess what… recently, she admitted to me that even though she hates it, she respects me for that.

    Another important factor in my marriage that my wife has admitted is this: I have always delivered on the promises I’ve made. She knows that she can rely on me. For her to extract a promise from me is difficult, but WHEN she does get one, my word is my bond. I cannot emphasize enough how important your credibility with your wife is. Without that credibility she will lose respect for you and then starts losing respect. One that path taken it’s a downhill trend that is extremely difficult to reverse.

  16. Gnosis – excellent first post. As a man who struggles with the incentives to get married (as in, there are none…ha), I always appreciate a post from a happily married guy and how he makes it work. Please keep offering your views.

  17. King A:

    Juggler has married for the second time.

    “Game Chi flowing”

    Are you into qigong Rollo?

  18. @John Galt,

    My advice to my nephews and single men I encounter is not to get married — even though I am happily married. Yes, it’s a contradiction. Call me a hypocrite if you like. As for reasons, there are many. The most valid ones that have been propagated throughout the manosphere already.

    Personally, my primary reason is this: It’s a Herculean task to find a decent woman in this day and age. The entitlement levels, condescending attitude and lack of agency I’ve seen in them is totally off-putting and dangerous. Marriage is risky enough without these three elements included. The odds are stacked heavily against the men. Finding a good woman, who wasn’t full of shit and who had not ridden the cock carousel to “death” wasn’t a walk in the park even fourteen years ago.

    On the flip side, if you can find a woman who will stand beside you through thick and thin, who know and understand what the word commitment means then it may be worth the risk. However, you better test her to the extreme before you propose. That’s another problem with guys getting married nowadays: They’re so eager to tie down the girl that they forget to qualify her marriageability. Where women “shit test” men should “commitment qualify” (I think I’ve just added a new term for the manosphere) Hell, before I got married I tested my wife extensively, I pushed her limits and challenged her to step up. Yeah, I was a bit of a bastard but the rewards are there.

    I haven’t heard this question asked around so often so I’ll post it here: “Do you regret getting married?” If you look at it from purely the sex angle, then and honest answer is “Yes.” You see all these hot, young, lithe bodies swarming around you and you’ll think back to the days you were single. However, man cannot live on sex alone. My overall answer to that question has consistently been “no.” And this is coming from a guy who had a respectable notch count in his youth. There are more things to life than chasing pussy. You also get to a point where you move one from the desire for variety and start wanting stability and to leave a legacy.

  19. Corrections
    para 2 – who knows and understands what the word commitment means
    para 3.1 – then an honest answer is “yes”
    para 3.2 – get to a point where you move on
    Sorry about that.

  20. While its tempting for “happily married” guys to think that they are the ones who made it so, it may just be that they got increadibly lucky. [Agreed]

    Marriage in anglosphere is like russian roulette. Don’t do it no matter how different she seems.

    Does not matter how alpha you think you are, when time comes, all she has to do is call her pimp (911).

  21. Rollo,

    Congrats on your 16 years of happy marriage. You said you made the decision to marry before you discovered the red pill/game. So I am assuming that you still had the goal of finding “the one” for you when made the proposal to your wife?

    I am glad it all worked out but do you think you would have still gotten married had you gotten rid of your AFC mindset by then? Also, 16 years is a while back and the environment has only gotten worse; so if you were a young man today would you even consider getting married?

    [Rather than write you a lengthy response read Fidelity]

  22. Gnosis – well put. Couple of my clients were weak men. It seems as we – men, have forgotten how hard and tough the world is and what is our duty, our mission. Maybe the reason is that western men are sheltered by bid daddy state. They no longer have to defend their home against wild animals and wild neighbours, they no longer need to be strong, positive, decisive and sharp as the razor to make it through. So they think that it is niceness, romance and good maneers that makes a man and women should appreciate them just for that. While these traits do not hurt – it is courage, not collapsing under pressure, giving your gifts even with broken heart, persistence, etc. what makes and always made, the man.

    There was an old proverb that woman makes a man. While I do not agree with this – man is standing alone, either married or not, there is a bit of truth to it. Woman pushes your hard core to emerge. In presence of it, she submits. She feels safe. Her mission – to find strong genes, is fulfilled. If you say NO, if you believe in yourself and feel comfortable in what you are doing, if you are prepared to be without her if necessary…than you are showering with your masculine. She may leave even after all of this, but ultimately – does it matter? Man stands alone. For himself. And for those he chooses. While the latter might change he is still there.

    Marriage is no easy business in these days. I salute to every man that has knowledge about women and signs those papers. And I feel for every weak or uninformed brother of ours that submits to this business thinking that it would be a nice, romantic adventure with his wife as his soumate and replacement for his mum.

  23. In a previous post I alluded to ways in which I gamed my wife. Given Rollo’s post, I figure now is a good time for my second post – ever. Heck, maybe I’ll become a contributor to the blog instead of a lurker 🙂

    My wife shit-tested me consistently, long before I understood what a shit-test was. As I mentioned in my previous post, I had long understood that women were manipulative, and given my own personality quirks, I would blow my stack if pushed too far. Once I started to try to “be a nice guy”, I terminated these occasional eruptions and thus began my descent into hell.

    The first step to coming out of that hell was to answer her shit tests. I had read that if you’ve been failing them for a long time, they will get worse before they get better. This was indeed the case. Once I understood what a shit-test was, it was easy to recognize, and I parried them left and right. There was one bit shit-test that didn’t seem to be going away. She had the particular habit of snapping at me with a “what!” when I would politely call her name to ask a question. This happened for the last time (or at least the last time without being followed by an immediate apology) when, after she snapped at me while she was sitting at the table with my two sons, I flipped her the bird and told her to f-off. This started a fight which culminated in my telling her, in summary, to call her f-ing lawyer and server me the papers, but don’t bother threatening me again – all at the top of my lungs with many f-bombs. A few minutes later I passed by her while she was taking a shower, crying. She asked if I would talk. She asked me to never talk to her that way again. My response was that I wouldn’t, as long as she didn’t treat me the way she did, and that I reserved the right to blow up if she couldn’t control herself.

    The next day I had a new wife. Really. Five years of bitchiness was over. I couldn’t believe it. While she will still get snippy, she usually apologizes very soon afterwards. I usually handle a bad attitude by calling attention to it and then letting it go. At the same time, when she pushes too far, I don’t yell at her, but I give her a look that lets her know that I don’t approve. That’s usually enough. This isn’t to say that I haven’t been pushed to the point of yelling, but it’s rare.

    That wasn’t the end of the game, however. My next goal was to improve our sex life, which had fallen from 3-5 times per week to 1/week, with a roll of eyes and a “sure, lets get it over with”. I started dressing up for work, knowing that her reaction would be to think I was having an affair. After two days of dressing up, I received the “are you having an affair?” question, to which my response was: “yes, she’s a 22 yo hottie at the office. Don’t worry, its purely sexual, I still love you”. I walked away without a word.

    This was met with bewilderment. The next day, the same question, with roughly the same answer. I walked away, and she said nothing. The third day, it was: “You need to stop giving me a wise-ass answer when I ask you if you having an affair.” To this I responded: “If you are going to insult me by accusing me of having an affair, then you don’t deserve a respectful answer.”

    This was a turning point. I followed this with pushing for more frequent sex, and being insistent. She was clearly confused by how I was acting, and I would occasionally have to deal with the conversation: “you’re different. You’re not the same person now. I don’t know if I like this.” I usually responded with something along the lines of: “This is who I was in my twenties, before I crashed and burned, you’re just going to have to get used to it.” (There’s another story in there, but that’s not for this blog). Truth is, I knew she liked it. It made her feel insecure, which she didn’t like, but I was back to my old self wrt the use of C&F and being dominant, only I now understood what I was doing, so I was consistent with my behaviors, whereas in the past (20-something), I would have probably shown more beta-traits.

    In the middle of all of this, women started to hit on my in front of my wife. I was always in good shape. I had been putting on about 2-3lbs of muscle a year, over the course of the previous 5 years, and I was pretty lean, but I decided that i was going to take some of the good money I was earning and spend it on myself. I began training at a well known sports performance training facility near me, and intentionally allowed myself to gain weight, as part of the goal of putting on some muscle. I went from 5″10″ 186 to 202 in about 4 months. Admittedly, more than half of this was fat, most of which I have subsequent lost, but I gained a good amount of muscle in the process. At my heaviest, I didn’t look fat since I started out overly lean. The extra size made a big difference in terms of how attractive I was to women. My attitude change was also a big help.

    One woman hit on me at a party, and when I rebuffed her, she told my wife I was hitting on her, thus causing a huge fight. Throughout the fight, which resulted in me staying in a separate hotel room for the night (I was locked out, long story), I refused to buckle and admit to doing anything wrong. She finally backed down and the next day made the statement: “You know, I think this woman may have done us a favor, in that it has brought us closer together”. And thus the hamster spins…

    There have been a number of instances unsolicited attention from women, which bothers my wife. It became especially bothersome this summer, as the age of the women dropped into the 20s (both of us are in our early 40s), and she realized that the women coming after me were especially attractive. In response, she has finally stared to make a serious effort at getting into really good shape. It’s not that she’s in bad shape, and quite frankly, for her age, she’s in good shape. She now realizes that given her age and given how I look, she needs to be in great shape in order for us to not look like a mismatch as a couple. I encouraged this concept of a mismatch when we were discussing another couple we know, one in which the wife thinks she’s more attractive than she is. When I stated that she’s not that attractive and that they are a bit of a mismatch, my wife responded with “really! what do you think people say about us?”.

    I have to work now…any typos and poor wording in the above – well, no time to proofread.

    G

  24. I was married for 18 years… a marriage I thought was successful until the end. The fact that it ended the way it did, with me completely caught off guard, made me realize something.

    I had become brainwashed by feminism. I was brought up to believe that marriage was supposed to be a partnership of equals and I treated my wife like my equal in every way. This was my problem.

    Women might tell you they want to be treated as equals, but they don’t mean it in the same sense that most men understand this. Men who try to treat their wives as equals will usually end up treating them like their male friends. This is not what women want. Most women want to be led; most women want their man to do and say things to make them feel special; most women want to feel protected; most women want to keep a little bit of tension in their relationship. These are not things you do in a relationship of equals, like men have with their buddies. It’s so different that it doesn’t feel at all like a relationship of equals.

    I grew up learning how to treat people like equals in relationships – I have a lot of male friends. It was too bad for me and my kids that I actually believed everything I had been taught about women and I believed what my wife said she wanted in a relationship. I had never learned how to have a successful relationship with a woman, because the relationship I had (my marriage) appeared to be successful for so long.

    Thank you, feminism, for doing such a great service to men and women. You have successfully turned cooperation, sharing, and symbiosis into conflict, greed, and jealousy.

    [For further reading: Equalism vs. Positive Masculinity]

  25. @ Dillon – “Marriage in anglosphere is like russian roulette.” Not exactly. In Russian Roulette you typically only load one round. To get the metaphor to work you would have to load three!

    In general, what should a guy do where marriage IS the end game for religious reasons? “Save us O Lord, from the wrath of the womynz!”

  26. “.Do guys realize how pathetic & weak they look when sitting shotgun with a chick at the wheel.”
    It’s a common sight round these parts, rather than an exception.

    [reason A] the guy is blind dribbling drunk, and she’s been summoned to the pub, having delivered him there earlier in the day
    (rural area, but being the UK, seething with surveillance devices, snitches and cops (that last at chucking-out time only))

    [reason B] failing to do the above, and has had drivers’ licence pulled for some while
    (although those guys eventually get given the heave-ho by ‘Er Indoors, as that means they lose their job too)

    [Reason C] some sort of breakage, due to their inexplicable obsession with playing rugby football
    (also see Reason A)

  27. Gnosis:

    Cosign your posts 100%. Agree that one of the most essential things a husband must be able to do is tell his wife “No” and stick to it.

    Other necessary skills:

    1. A single man’s default position on marriage must be not to get married. He must not marry any woman who does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she is worthy of the enormous investment in time, money and resources he will have to make. The single man must walk away from any woman who presents him with the “I wanna get married or we’re breaking up” ultimatum. His response to that statement is “well, it was fun knowing you.”

    2. The husband must be the man with the plan. You set the frame. You need to have an overall vision for your life, your career, your marriage and your kids. You must then determine and carry out the life plan and path, and invite her to go with you.

    3. The husband must control his emotions. Even a wife with a husband for many years cannot be, and does not want to be, her husband’s sole or even primary source of emotional support. This is despite women saying they want men to be “in touch with their feelings” and to “talk about what’s wrong”. She only wants to know about your good feelings, not your negative ones.

    You may be in excruciating emotional pain. You might be massively frustrated with something. Trust me — your wife does not want to hear it. She might want to help you, but she cannot. She’s incapable of helping you. You will have to get help elsewhere.

    Sorry men — your wife is not your therapist. If you need to feel anger, rage, fear, frustration or any other negative emotions, you will have to do it somewhere else. Today’s woman is simply not capable of giving a man emotional support.

    4. The husband must accept that his wife is not his world, and that things could happen which could destroy his marriage. He must hope for the best and prepare for the worst. He must be prepared for, and have a plan in place for, a “worst case scenario” in which his wife decides to leave him. He must get to an emotional state in which he can become self-sufficient. He must show (not say, SHOW) that if his wife decides to blow it all to hell, it will not kill him, his life will not be over, and he will survive it. He must come to believe this, make it part of his life and his personality.

  28. 5. The husband must understand that his wife is not a man. She does not understand what it’s like to pop a boner in school. She doesn’t understand what sexual dry spells are like. She doesn’t understand the excruciating frustration of wanting, NEEDING sex and not being able to get it. She doesn’t understand that to a man, sex equates to love. She doesn’t understand how exquisitely painful sexual rejection is. She does not understand how deeply men love. She does not understand these things and she will never understand them. No amount of talking, discussion or marriage counseling will ever make her understand them.

  29. I have observed that there can never be perfect equality in a marriage. Either the man takes the dominant position or the woman does. There is never a balance.

    Women claim that they want a man who treats them as complete equals. They claim they want men to express their feelings and to rely on them sometimes, get in touch with their feminine side etc. But the reality is as soon as a man becomes relaxed and allows woman to take control she loses respect for him and begins to take him for granted. She also loses attraction towards him. The problem with women is that they can only respect and be attracted to a man they can look up to.

    Personally, After much introspection and reasoning I’ve realized that marriage isnt for me.

  30. Today, men bear a dual burden. Not only they have to fulfill the expectations due from a traditional provider and protector, but they also have to be desirable. They have to have looks, physique and know how to seduce women. The Men expect women to be desirable but they dont need to look up to them. We men have this instinct to facilitate women and still respect and be attracted to women even if they are helpless. Women dont have that instinct for men.

  31. “Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a man has to make in order to fulfill his commitment of marriage. Entering into a life-long binding commitment of fidelity that offers a man very little appreciable advantage, and knowing the totality of the risk he’s assuming in accepting that sacrifice will never be fully understood or appreciated by the woman he marries.”

    This is one of the Red Pill truths I managed to get through to a married man in my family. He was complaining that his wife doesn’t fully appreciate him and his sacrifices for the marriage. Told him if he needs to talk about it to get it off his chest, he should talk to one of us men, not his wife – who even with the best intention would never fully understand his sacrifices.

  32. I’m not sure what’s better… the article or the comment section. I feel 10x smarter after reading the entire page. Thank you Rollo and everybody else.

  33. Despite you being a total stranger I want to thank you for writing what you have, and continue to write.

    The BPD post’s & comments have really helped me understand my situation in a way that I – without this blog in particular – would’ve disregarded and misunderstood; as, relating with another human in realtime is far more validating and revealing than portions of acceptance in times when it’s been necessary.

    That makes little sense, yet is valid concerning my circumstance. I would hope you’d one day write more about your experience with a BPD woman, and in particular about what you did when naturally without “game” or anything like that as you moved on and found your current wife. What went through your mind, your very being, as you accepted, realized, and grew to go from where you were in that relationship to where you came out successfully in the end? Who you describe yourself as at certain ages rings heavily, mirror-like true to me.

    Knowing things are how they are don’t make it any easier to experience them; however, knowing things are the way they are and what one may do next make the process more productive, has been quite effective in that I see how I change when knowing the change is going on; in what I do, how I say things, how I act. I furthermore feel, however, that I was more effective before I learned much of what I have, as it happened naturally, as opposed to occurring in relation to things I then was made to think about – as I’ve no doubt chosen to involve myself in the very thought’s which promote and produce the very same results as mentioned in this and many other phenomenally witnessed writer’s examinations of reality.

    This is an interesting article because, like with most of your posts, it doesn’t reveal much, however it explicates a lot.

    I currently don’t understand my own feelings regarding being with this last girl – and having fucked her after we’ve left each other hasn’t helped; nor has, I’ve found, being a better man; I know she need be removed from my life, but it’s difficult in that unlike other scenarios she’s not just there & gone; she’s always there and always gone – as am I.

  34. A consideration a man should take in waiting until his 30’s for monogamy and marriage is the very real possibility of losing interest in it entirely by that age.

    Venting a woman to be your wife and mother your children is the most critical and tedious part of a man’s life and it’s hard not to ignore the fact that alot of women in todays society are not desirable in the wife category. A man should vent his potential wife for 3 years minimum. Even then, he still risks her waking up one morning suddenly feeling “unhappy”, and then you’re done…

    You reach a certain age where you realize that hand wasn’t in your deck of cards and forcing it with a poor choice in a woman would be the most regretting decision in your life.

  35. A MAN’S CONTINENT WAY

    1. Contain your SEED in your LOINS until you find a WOMAN who truly deserves to receive it.

    2. Contain your PLANS in your MIND until you can ACT on them.

    3. Contain your FEELINGS in your HEART until you are CALM.

    4. Contain your STRENGTH in your LIMBS until you are called to a worthy CHALLENGE.

    5. Contain your FEARS in your SOUL until your COURAGE overcomes them.

    6. Contain your MONEY in your PURSE until you can buy something truly VALUABLE.

    7. Contain your HUNGER to your STOMACH until you have cooked a manly FEAST.

    8. Contain your WORDS in your MOUTH until everyone else has SPOKEN.

    9. Contain your ANGER in your BELLY until you find your true ENEMY.

    10. Contain your PLEASURE in your BODY until you are ALONE.

    CONTAIN EVERYTHING UNTIL IT IS RIPE FOR HARVEST!!

  36. Well written. I’ve read these accounts in various forms on Sosuave but it’s always good to re-read.

    This is a small, small example of masculine and feminine framing, and I’ve repeated it ad nauseum, but here it is anyway:

    Whenever we are out, and my wife has cash and I don’t, when the bill/check arrives, she surreptitiously slips the cash to me. She expects me to pay even when I’m technically not. No other woman has ever done that, and I find it charming. Paying a bill isn’t even considered a “gender role” anymore; men and women have disposable cash and there’s no faux pas if a woman pays. Not even a sense of shame. Yet I always pay and I happily assume that role. That’s just a grain of an example of our dynamic and it works for us.

  37. A few months ago I was supposed to attend a motorcycle rally with a chick I was seeing at the time. My 34 year old bike is a bit temperamental and didn’t feel like running at that time so she offered to let me ride bitch on her parent’s trike that she was planning on borrowing.

    Ride up and in front of my biker friends on the back of a big rig Harley piloted by a 100lb girl? Where do I sign up!

  38. Mr. Tomassi,
    I used to think that I was part of a couple like that (in a open relationship style)… but recently, my alpha male has been reading your posts… And he is getting it wrong.
    He is taking advises that were made for beta men and is overdoing it. I used to feel satisfied with his cool and somewhat cold attitude before, but… Now he is just a annoying man that thinks I want to control him in every single moment. We argue a lot and I always feel miserable after every single fight… He just keeps pulling me down.
    I also feel rejected… I feel that I’m dating a jerk that constantly put me in “me or your career” situations and shorts the already short time we have together.
    I love him, I really do. And all these happy years together are making me stay a little longer.
    But I know I can’t take this stranger for too long,
    I want an alpha, not a jerk.

    I love yours posts (really), I always felt confused about relationships, nothing was making sense… until I found this site.

    How can I explain to him that being alpha is not making your woman miserable?

    P.S.: Sorry for the english, I’m still learning it.

  39. In my view, the whole point of a relationship is for both parties to sacrifice a part of their sexual imperative in the interest of building something better which is more than the sum of its parts.

    For the man, this involves sacrificing his options for sexual variety, investing through his superior ability to gain status, resources, taking on risk, providing, and protecting. He should be prepared to shoulder burdens like these because he is better at it.

    For the woman, she must sacrifice her desire for the seed of the highest quality men (because, let’s face it, no matter how awesome you are, there’s someone out there that’s better looking, taller, etc) and make her man the center of her sexual world. She should support him, not only when times are good, but when times are bad, as long as he’s proven himself worthy of said support. And she should respect the sacrifices he’s made for her.

    This is why I don’t mind a little fitness testing from a woman. Trying to rail against this.. you might as well yell at the sky for being blue.

    But if your relationship (or marriage) is filled with nonstop testing and needling, even as you continue to pass test after test, with your SO not showing that she’s willing to help you up should you fall.. well, she’s not really fulfilling her end of the bargain, is she? All constant testing shows is that she doesn’t respect you, isn’t satisfied, and honestly, unless she’s proven herself in the past, probably won’t be there for you when you need her the most.. there comes a point where after which she still isn’t satisfied, she probably will never be, so anything past that is wasted labor (and, in my case, just cause for ending the relationship.)

  40. Also consider that the moral compass should belong with he who has the harshest upbringing.. men’s often being a hell of a whole lot harsher than women’s.

  41. Rollo, you mention that men make a sacrifice of their desire for sexual variety and their sex life in general, when he marries.

    But you are forgetting that for many men, marriage *is* the only or most feasible way to have a regular sex life. one-night-stands, flings, FWB’s, casual relationships – these are not for every guy. Most men dont get the opportunity to be promiscuous. Most men are simply not built for the going out in the jungle and hunting…physically or mentally.

    I dont want marriage. I dont even want a committed relationship at this stage But I feel compelled to consider commitment and marriage because of my sexual / intimate needs. I am sure many mediocre young men are in the same boat as me. But you havent considered them here. You’re talking from the perspective of a man who is atleast relatively attractive and can sexually attract women with reasonable ease.

  42. How many men, particularly in the southern USA, can say that their wives/gf’s in their 40’s are hot enough to get a second look from other men?

    Practically none.

    Therefore, almost all men should not get married unless they can get turned on enough by a woman who cannot get second looks by men.

  43. NMH

    How many men in USA, in their 40’s, can go to a bar and pick up average looking women on a reasonable frequent basis ?

    I can bet women in their 40’s would fare a lot better in that respect.

  44. Dan:

    I can’t imagine either gender has it easy in their 40s, but look at it this way: A woman in their 40s has next to nothing to offer eligible bachelors besides a few years of extremely dubious fertility. A man in his 40s can offer a woman a good thirty years of more of resources they’ve hopefully spent the last twenty years accumulating.

    Even the best women can hardly expect to snag the best of both worlds – looks and resources – and only the most delusional average women think they have a reasonable shot at it.

  45. Bully :

    I wouldnt want to be a man who is wanted by a woman for his resources. I have more self respect than that. I dont know about you.

  46. “to be the decider, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them.”

    So does a real woman not have ideas that she can execute confidently? Does she not also decide or initiate at times? I come from an evangelical background and this stuff killed us. We were not allowed as wives to decide on anything big or small unless given permission of course. Husbands make all decisions and we are forced to submit like we are just kids whether we agree with what they choose or not. This is how conservative Christians divide gender, with women being just tagalongs and assistants for the men. They think that the feminine only follows and should never lead even if we have a great idea or are better in an area. It was the worst years of my life, animals should not even be caged and controlled like that. So in a secular setting like this, I am confused why the feminine is considered the opposite of a decider even though women can be great at it. Does it honestly kill attraction if a woman makes some of the decisions for the family, or if the couple decides on things together and come to mutual agreements on things?

  47. Ancadudar, that’s because half of your leadership will be used to fuck things up and ‘put the man to test’ for your entertainment, create drama for your entertainment and so on.

    Or, compare groups that are led by a female vs groups that are led by a male

    Or relationships that are run by the female vs relationships that are run by the male

    ————–

    That’s not so say all male – run relationships are perfect, or even good. Men have their own issues, then most men are basically bad at it.

    But when you have a woman in charge you’re destined for failure.

    Because at your core your main desire is to have things happen magically and automatically and to have your basic needs provided without you having to ask them, and to be always on the good side of things and not to be blamed by your mistakes and most of your decisions happen on an emotional gut level, and tribalism is how you determine whos good and who’s bad.

    Which is a recipe for disaster for anyone in power.

  48. “Does it honestly kill attraction if a woman makes some of the decisions for the family,”

    It kills YOUR OWN attraction for the man.

    When you take the decisions, YOUR attraction and YOUR respect for the man goes down.

    So the thing you’re demanding destroys YOUR fulfilment.

    Yes you’re fucked up like that.

  49. “YOHAMI

    Ancadudar, that’s because half of your leadership will be used to fuck things up and ‘put the man to test’ for your entertainment, create drama for your entertainment and so on.

    Or, compare groups that are led by a female vs groups that are led by a male

    Or relationships that are run by the female vs relationships that are run by the male

    Evangelical women run everything in the house as far as having to shoulder all of the work with no say in affairs, the men just come around to bark orders and “supervise”. Basically, if the husband does not like the way something is arranged say for example where things are placed, then he tells the wife to change it and she must submit. If she were to do the same thing, the man gets offended and reminds her who the head is. It’s a form of slavery.

    ————–

    That’s not so say all male – run relationships are perfect, or even good. Men have their own issues, then most men are basically bad at it.

    But when you have a woman in charge you’re destined for failure.

    Because at your core your main desire is to have things happen magically and automatically and to have your basic needs provided without you having to ask them, and to be always on the good side of things and not to be blamed by your mistakes and most of your decisions happen on an emotional gut level, and tribalism is how you determine whos good and who’s bad.

    Which is a recipe for disaster for anyone in power.”

    This was not my experience. When my partner refused to listen to me, he fucked things up big time. Women and men have different perspectives to offer, and sometimes a woman’s “gut feeling” has laser-like precision in its prediction, almost like a sixth sense. Having someone control and micromanage you is demoralizing. I was decaying and becoming confused and depressed under that arrangement. It’s getting tyrannical in the evangelical circle.

    I love to lead, and I draw strength from it. I also have a vision for my family, i’m more than just the maid. I also like to choose restaurants and book vacations. I’m also good with money and found it humiliating to have to ask permission for 20 dollars of the money I earned myself but had to hand over.

    Black and white binaries are not good, there is no flexibility there. It might be really different for non Christians. Something about having to obey every order someone gives you is so humiliating. Perhaps if it was not forced out of religious obligation, a woman would be thrilled to do it out of admiration for the man as long as he is not controlling everything.

  50. YOHAMI

    “Does it honestly kill attraction if a woman makes some of the decisions for the family,”

    It kills YOUR OWN attraction for the man.

    When you take the decisions, YOUR attraction and YOUR respect for the man goes down.

    So the thing you’re demanding destroys YOUR fulfilment.

    Yes you’re fucked up like that.”

    I’m not sure if you are married or not, but if your wife had a good idea and wanted to implement it, what would you do, would you allow her to do it? How do you guys make decisions in this arrangement, do you as a man just decide something on your own and then tell her about it? What if she does not agree with what you want, do you look for a middle ground you both agree with?

  51. Andaducar,

    “tyrannical”

    Yes – tyranny is bad regardless of which gender is performing it. If you’re being oppressed, by all means get out of that relationship and social circle.

    “controlling everything”

    Controlling / micromanaging falls in the feminine spectrum, and you sound more on the masculine spectrum. Which is probably how you fell in love with that guy to begin with.

    But in principle – do you want a relationship where you lead most of the time?

    “I’m not sure if you are married or not, but if your wife had a good idea and wanted to implement it, what would you do, would you allow her to do it?”

    Im married and we do her ideas a lot of the time – we negotiate things. Im not a tyrant. She attempts to be a tyrant from time to time, that’s the ‘half your leadership will screw things up’ Im referring to.

    As a woman half your initiative is figuring out who’s the one in charge, and half your curiosity is about if the man you’re with is still deserving it. So – left to your own devices you’ll lead the relationship into disaster. This is you and every woman. Not holding it against you, just look:

    Here you are on a male forum complaining about the man you choose to be paired with, and either plotting a rebellion or making yourself feel good after having already broke that commitment you entered voluntarily.

    Get into a relationship where you have the upperhand by default, and you’ll blow that one up x10 faster.

    That’s on you.

  52. @ancadudar

    “I was decaying and becoming confused and depressed”

    That’s because the masculinity wasn’t positive.

    That and the sex was crap.

    If he’d been making you climb the walls the dynamic would have been different.

    And I admit, that was his fault.

  53. “That’s because the masculinity wasn’t positive.”

    Agree. Controlling, micromanaging, tyrannical – that’s not leadership.

    But she chose him right?

  54. YOHAMI,

    “tyrannical”

    Yes – tyranny is bad regardless of which gender is performing it. If you’re being oppressed, by all means get out of that relationship and social circle.”

    Yes, I think I need to leave Christianity, and fast! I love the concept of God, but the rest of the stuff in the Bible is dangerous for a woman. I am planning on leaving the relationship.

    ““controlling everything”

    Controlling / micromanaging falls in the feminine spectrum, and you sound more on the masculine spectrum. Which is probably how you fell in love with that guy to begin with.

    But in principle – do you want a relationship where you lead most of the time?”

    I am more on the masculine side in many things, I love to lead and people of both genders usually follow men and ask me for advice. No, I definitely would not like to lead in the relationship all of the time. I want a man who is an anchor for me, who can give me advice and male perspective, and protection, but for me, male protection is not by him leading me in a conventional sense like giving me orders, I feel safe just by strong male presence and physical touch or a man leading when walking somewhere. I value a male opinion more than a female one.

    “I’m not sure if you are married or not, but if your wife had a good idea and wanted to implement it, what would you do, would you allow her to do it?”

    Im married and we do her ideas a lot of the time – we negotiate things. Im not a tyrant. She attempts to be a tyrant from time to time, that’s the ‘half your leadership will screw things up’ Im referring to.”

    This is nice to hear that you value her ideas too, I wish my relationship was like this! I don’t want to be a tyrant over a man, but how could I not test his performance? I want to give a man a challenge and see what he does, it’s seriously fun.

    Here you are on a male forum complaining about the man you choose to be paired with, and either plotting a rebellion or making yourself feel good after having already broke that commitment you entered voluntarily.

    Ok, but give me a break, because I was taught that a Christian man has to lead as part of our religion, I never imagined it would be so tyrannical and suffocating. Please understand that Christian men are told by pastors to control and decide everything, so “female” micro-managing is what most of them are doing now.

    Actually, I did not come to this site to make myself feel better. I was investigating for the past year how this male headship and female submission stuff got into the Bible, and all roads led to Rome. I realized that they are just codified Roman-Greco gender values given Christian symbols. So then I started to study the ancient Roman culture the Bible was pinned against. What I discovered is that evangelical Christian men are trying to lead and control their wives without having any of the masculine qualities and concepts of male leadership that the Romans had. There is no more natural polarity where a woman literally depends on her husband to keep her safe, alive and provided for. They were also really fit men and ready to go to war at any moment. So now among Christians, they think that they should micro-manage and control everything because women are told to submit in everything, this is life draining instead of empowering for a woman. The earliest Chruch Father’s advised husbands not to control everything just the important stuff, to preside over, not to abuse that power through excess. So I ended up on this website because of a google search on masculinity. This is my first time here.

  55. Ancadudar,

    Cool – before you leave the guy, try having this conversation with him. Make sure he ‘gets it’.

    Check the videos by Jordan Peterson if you haven’t, he has hours of good material on this stuff.

    And it doesn’t surprise me that christian men don’t know how to me men – we’re all actively being pushed away from masculinity.

  56. palmasailor,

    “Probably the best hypergamous option she had. AWALT.”

    Hmm, I almost get the feeling that you guys use “hypergamous” as a nicer word for parisite.

  57. “Hmm, I almost get the feeling that you guys use “hypergamous” as a nicer word for parisite.”

    It’s worse than calling women a parasite because it comes from hurt feelings.

    Do you remember the nicer, less tyranical, less controlling guys you passed over in order to snag your current partner? these are the guys who are hurt, can pointing at your hypergamy

    Hypergamy: your desire to find that ‘better man’, and trade up your existing relationship for an hypotetical one

    Which is also what makes it ‘so much fun’ for you to throw a challenge to the guy and see how he performs. It’s all fun and games until the time he doesn’t perform to your expectations, then it’s his time to be discarded and replaced.

    So it’s a dirty word but it’s the truth.

  58. “Which is also what makes it ‘so much fun’ for you to throw a challenge to the guy and see how he performs. It’s all fun and games until the time he doesn’t perform to your expectations, then it’s his time to be discarded and replaced.”

    That is “the burden of performance”.

    Great comments YOHAMI

  59. @ancadudar
    a woman would be thrilled to do it out of admiration for the man

    I am planning on leaving the relationship.

    There you go.

    @YOHAMI
    Controlling, micromanaging, tyrannical – that’s not leadership.

    Alphas have different reference experiences than betas.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zi9Pw7UsF4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfOIQ0yTYRY

    Cool – before you leave the guy, try having this conversation with him. Make sure he ‘gets it’.

    Nope, he doesn’t and a conversation with a female won’t fix it. Send him over here.

    Unfortunately, ‘sending over’ is usually done by ‘checking out’… which is ‘in progress’ in this case…

  60. YOHAMI,

    “It’s worse than calling women a parasite because it comes from hurt feelings.

    Do you remember the nicer, less tyranical, less controlling guys you passed over in order to snag your current partner? these are the guys who are hurt, can pointing at your hypergamy”

    I only dated one other person at 19 for a few months. Years later, this is my second relationship and first serious one. It’s breaking down because of the religious conflict over gender roles. There’s nothing else I can do, I either comply with the Bible or I’m a heretic. I tried already, i’m seen as pitting him against God. I should have been more careful before entering the relationship to make sure he was a more liberal and not so literal interpretation of the Bible kind of guy, I take the full blame for this.

    “Hypergamy: your desire to find that ‘better man’, and trade up your existing relationship for an hypotetical one”

    I had no idea this is what it really meant, it’s my first time on the site and I only read a few articles. I thought it meant the way women view men as the “other gender” because we view you as protectors, as the stronger ones. So I thought it was saying we don’t appreciate the man for who he is, only what he represents. Which i’m not so sure about.

    “Which is also what makes it ‘so much fun’ for you to throw a challenge to the guy and see how he performs. It’s all fun and games until the time he doesn’t perform to your expectations, then it’s his time to be discarded and replaced.”
    So it’s a dirty word but it’s the truth.”

    Wow, I had no idea it was like this. I’m really sorry to come off as insensitive. I’ve tested my guy friends before, but I never discarded them. I thought it was just playing around. Are you sure women just discard men over this? The divorce crisis did not exist 70 years ago.

  61. IRL,

    “Nope, he doesn’t and a conversation with a female won’t fix it.”

    Yeah, but it’s the difference between doing it in the open or behind his back. The former allows him to make his move, maybe even wake the fuck up.

    “Send him over here.”

    That too.

  62. “Hypergamy: your desire to find that ‘better man’, and trade up your existing relationship for an hypotetical one”

    I had no idea this is what it really meant, it’s my first time on the site and I only read a few articles.”

    And it was at this moment she knew she fucked up.

  63. @IRL

    “a woman would be thrilled to do it out of admiration for the man

    I am planning on leaving the relationship.”

    A woman doing something a man asks her out of love and respect for him is different than being told because women were created to just be the “helpers” of men, we must serve them on command. A none Christian man who loves and protects his wife asks if she will iron his shirt, and a good woman will be glad to do it and take pride in it, when a conservative Christian man says it, it’s not a request, it’s an order. The dynamics change, and they are taught that those are our female roles, so they command really often. It’s exasperating and humiliating. So yes, I’m leaving the relationship and religion.

    The first video about the couple on Dr. Phil is relational, the guy is not controlling her.

  64. @YOHAMI: “Cool – before you leave the guy, try having this conversation with him. Make sure he ‘gets it’.”

    She won’t do it, YOHAMI.

    Women desire a Man who “Just gets it” without her having to “explain it to him”. That is why we have this “I want to give a man a challenge and see what he does, it’s seriously fun” mind set in females. The purpose of the “Shits tests” is to see if the Man “Just Gets It”.

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

  65. @Incubus_Rising

    “She won’t do it, YOHAMI.”

    Your right I won’t do it, a year later of intense fights, being called rebellious, having the pastor call me a Jezebel, and I won’t do it. My whole faith is down the drain. It’s not just the relationship I’m losing here. My whole understanding of male leadership is messed up now. This conflict now between a craving for male dominance on an instinctual level, mixed with disgust of being indoctrinated by the Church for years that women need to be led in all areas of their lives by men and must submit. I sympathize with feminism as far as human rights go, yet can’t quite accept all this equal stuff. It’s all just a shit storm for me now.

    Anyways, thanks everyone for the advice. This is a good site. I will keep reading the info.

  66. YOHAMI

    That was a concise and impressive examination of the facts. I appreciated it.

    I can’t reconcile what I’ve seen with what I’m seeing. Evangelical Christian men, of which I know a great many, are the last men that harrumph around trying to maximize control over their wives. Quite the opposite.

    By their training they mostly tend towards the emotional and non-confrontational. They are instructed to lead their wives by “servant leadership”, which means in practice to defer to her extensively, if not exclusively in all things, do a lot of choreplay, etc.; and that her happiness is the barometer used to measure his spiritual success or failure.

    Dalrock writes about this often. I really wish her husband would come over here and tell his version. I’ve never heard but one half of a divorce story, and somehow it’s almost always the woman’s half.

  67. “Evangelical women run everything in the house as far as having to shoulder all of the work with no say in affairs, the men just come around to bark orders and “supervise”

    Total bullshit. I let her choose what we’re eating and how my underwear is folded.

    “our female roles, so they command really often. It’s exasperating and humiliating. So yes, I’m leaving the relationship and religion.”

    So long honey. You’ve been living a figment of choice when all this time you’ve committed yourself to divorce. You haven’t thought this through. You’ve been on a scavenger hunt for justification.

    No one will respect you…especially the liberated ladies you’ll be herded with socially. They don’t respect themselves.

    Don’t feel bad if you wash, rinse, repeat as the only options left at your age are more social tards and professional betas. It happens.

  68. I love to lead, and I draw strength from it. I also have a vision for my family

    Paul encourages women to lead in the home–they should be able to manage household affairs without the man having to get involved…household servants, grocery budgets, etc.

    When it comes to partnership issues, the man ought to lead, although it’s fine for the woman to offer suggestions and alternatives. If the man screws that up, well, she has made her bed and she has to lie on it. But men learn and improve over time, typically, so it may just be a matter of time before life improves.

    Leadership is mostly a male thing. If a woman wants to lead, she is essentially trying to be a man. Since our culture encourages women to act like men, they feel deprived if they can’t do male activities.

    However, women who try to be men are 3rd rate men and 2nd rate women.

  69. “You know why you act up? You are sending a signal. You are looking for somone… who will… Take.you.in.hand”

  70. What I discovered is that evangelical Christian men are trying to lead and control their wives without having any of the masculine qualities and concepts of male leadership that the Romans had.

    Dalrock discusses evangelical screw-ups on his site, especially as regards feminism invading the Church. Feminism and Christianity don’t mix well. Tbh, feminism and biology don’t mix well either. Feminism labored for No Fault Divorce laws, and now we’re shocked (!) that divorce has mushroomed.

    Feminism weakens men and shames masculinity. There was no crisis of masculinity 70 years ago when divorce was rare. Men had higher status 70 years ago. There was no problem of western culture and the Bible 70 years ago. These things all fit together. Now it’s a clusterfuck.

    So now men don’t know what to do when their wives test them and end up being domineering instead of dominant. Dominant is attractive, but domineering is unattractive. So, marriages weaken over time as men and women are confused and thrash about in quicksand. Women try to act like men and men try to act like women.

  71. Interesting back and forth banter. She reads like a fiction writer , makes me want to look for the bible belt of old.

    A nice break from the void caused beta male games of the main thread.

  72. mixed with disgust of being indoctrinated by the Church for years that women need to be led in all areas of their lives by men

    Funny, most “Christian” teaching now seems to be aimed at getting men to accept female leadership. I haven’t seen this thing that you’re talking about for a long time.

    As far as women acting like women goes…I like girlie girls…long hair…skirts or dresses…a wiggle in a walk and a giggle in a talk…melodious voices…I don’t like short hair on a woman…I don’t like pants on a woman…men wear pants…they don’t wear skirts or dresses…a woman wearing pants is trying to act like a man…she’s less attractive

  73. My whole faith is down the drain. It’s not just the relationship I’m losing here.

    So, your broken relationship means that Christ didn’t rise from the dead? I have to wonder about your idea of Christianity and the Bible. It seems strange.

  74. @ancadudar

    You wouldn’t care about all that if his value in your eyes was through the roof. If his choices, decisions and life were proving this in the long term. You’re stressed/frustrated because you’ve realized you may be with someone who doesn’t display these traits.

    It’s not about you leading, being right or treated gently. Him being ‘nice’ and ‘equal’ would bring relief only temporarily… if at all. Because deep down you’d know he’s failing as a Man.

    So you’re hoping to find one who can solve your problems and take care of you the way you think you need it.

    Leaving? Don’t be surprised when you wake up asking yourself “where have all the good men gone?”… having gained some wrinkles and pounds. See @EhIntellect’s comment…

    What you want is him becoming dynamic, passionate and authentic. Successful as a man. Keeping you on your toes. Making you wet.

    He can get there. He needs Red Pill and Game. He can start here.

    But… why would you be worth keeping around by a man you desire?

  75. @Lost Patrol

    It’s not what you think. It’s getting fanatical, really really fanatical. Try to listen to some videos from John Piper, Mark Discroll, Bruce Ware, they teach to control everything. There are men now who are leaving these groups because they see the damage it has done to their wives. The message goes like this, since Christ leads the Chruch, then women can never lead in the home because the Chruch never leads Christ. Women must submit in everything because the Church submits in everything. Husbands must control everything because Christ controls everything. Everything except for sin of course. They then think the Bible says this because men and women must be created this way since they think everything the Bible says is inspired. The bottom line is that I do not need to be lead in everything. It made me really confused and disoriented. My partner put me on a schedule and controlled even my half of the finances. He makes all decisions and I am only on standby for direction. The exhaustion that comes with not being able to say no to a request. It’s also humiliating. This whole paradigm is an illusion, people cannot live their lives trying to fit a metaphor. Servant leadership is just code for asking for permission for everything, a man can say no to every request and the woman still has to comply. A woman is at the mercy of her husband’s judgment and kindness.

    @theasdgamer

    Leadership is mostly a male thing. If a woman wants to lead, she is essentially trying to be a man. Since our culture encourages women to act like men, they feel deprived if they can’t do male activities.

    However, women who try to be men are 3rd rate men and 2nd rate women.

    I disagree, my brain is capable of leading. I’m not trying to be a man, I’m trying to be myself. This is like telling someone not to use a basic human function that comes naturally to them. How in the world is this only a male thing? This is like faking weakness so someone else can do it for me. I don’t have the need to be the primary leader in the relationship, but thought, plan, capacity, and action does originate from me too.

  76. Ancadudar,

    “I disagree, my brain is capable of leading”

    You’re not a typical girl. We’re talking about generalities. Then there are feminine men and masculine women.

    In your case you seem to have a feminine drive and core (want me a real man!, won’t tell him how to fix this) with a masculine surface and tools. Here you are, talking arguments, using logic, looking for middle grounds etc.

    So likely your guy fits you in the opposite spectrum – maybe he has a masculine core and a feminine (controlling) surface.

    If you learn to say “No” while staying on the relationship maybe he’d find a way.

    If you just destroy that relationship you’re guaranteed to repeat this cycle because the stuff is out of your hands. Or, you’ll find another man who has a feminine surface that allows your leadership but then he’ll also be failing the test and you’ll be also unable to communicate what you actually want because deep down you just want that things happen magically and without you having to verbalizing them.

    Someone has to be smarter there.

    Send him here. Let him be red-pilled.

  77. @theasdgamer

    I think the secular form of male leadership that is being promoted here sounds healthier than the Christian one. The Christian one is trying to live a metaphor where everything is black and white based off of an illusion. Do you know how stupid it is to say the man must decide everything but then tell them to defer to wives because of servant leadership? All that says is that a woman cannot make a choice for herself and needs permission. It’s better to just have a basic understanding that the man will take a stronger lead and allow open communication and the option for the woman to say no if something he wants to do is really not ok for her.

  78. @ancadudar

    I’m not sure what you get out of this site. You are not really the intended audience. It is not meant to be a place to teach women how to “fix” their husbands to make themselves happy. Athol Kay’s site might be a bit more to your liking.

    It is more meant for people like your husband on how to make themselves their own mental point of origin. You could send him here, but I suspect it won’t do any good, because then he is learning tricks, and doesn’t “just get it.”

  79. Do you know how stupid it is to say the man must decide everything but then tell them to defer to wives because of servant leadership? All that says is that a woman cannot make a choice for herself and needs permission.

    And, conversely, men are never allowed to make decisions. It’s retarded and that’s what you get when you try to mix feminism with Christianity.

  80. “All I want is what I’ve not got … and what I need is all around me.” ~ Dave Matthews – and every woman I’ve ever come in contact with, like ancadudar.

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