The Medium is the Message

I hate the term ‘Mixed Signals’ or ‘Mixed Messages’. “I dunno man, she sending me mixed messages” is a common refrain among many a Blue Pill man.

More often than not there’s nothing ‘Mixed’ being communicated, rather it’s a failure (willful or not) to read what a woman is communicating to a man. The average guy tends to ‘get’ exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own interpretation.

When a woman goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message — she’s got buyers remorse, you’re not her first priority, she’s deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better Hypergamous prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. — the message isn’t the ‘what ifs’, the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? Flaking? strong interest to weak interest? This IS the message.

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

What most guys think are ‘mixed messages’ or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (or refusal) to make an accurate interpretation of why she’s behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl that he’d rather make concessions for her behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it’s far easier to call it ‘mixed messages’ or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it’s simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will test a man’s fitness (i.e. shit test), and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable when you consider the context in which they’re delivered.

More often than not women tell the complete truth with their mannerisms and behaviors, they just communicate it in a fashion that men can’t or wont understand. As a behaviorist, I’m a firm believer in the psychological principal that the only way to determine genuine motivation and/or intent is to observe the behavior of an individual. All one need do is compare behavior and the results of it to correlate intent.

A woman will communicate vast wealths of information and truths to a man if he’s only willing to accept her behavior, not exclusively her words, as the benchmark. He must also understand that the truth she betrays in her behavior is often not what he wants to accept.

We get frustrated because women communicate differently than we do. Women communicate covertly, men communicate overtly. Men convey information, women convey feeling. Men prioritize content and information, women prioritize context and feeling when they communicate. One of the great obfuscations fostered by feminization in the last quarter-century is this expectation that women are every bit as rational and inclined to analytical problem solving as men. It’s the result of an equalist mentality that misguides men into believing that women communicate no differently than men. That’s not to discount women learning to be problem solvers in their own right, but it flies in the face how women set about a specifically feminine form of communication. Scientific study after study illustrating the natural capacity women have for exceptionally complex forms of communication (to the point of proving their neural pathways are wired differently) are proudly waved in by a feminized media as proof of women’s innate merits. Yet as men, we’re expected to accept that she “means what she says, and she says what she means.”

More than a few women like to wear this as a badge of some kind of superiority, however it doesn’t necessarily mean that what they communicate is more important, or how they communicate it is more efficient, just that they have a greater capacity to understand nuances of communication better than do men. One of the easiest illustrations of this generational gender switch is to observe the communication methods of the “strong” women the media portray in popular fiction today. How do we know she’s a strong woman? The first cue is she communicates in an overt, information centered, masculine manner.

You don’t need to be psychic to understand women’s covert communication, you need to be observant. This often requires a patience that most men simply don’t have, so they write women off as duplicitous, fickle or conniving if the name fits. Even to the Men that are observant enough, and take the needed mental notes to really see it going on around them, it seems very inefficient and irrational. And why wouldn’t it? We’re Men. Our communications are (generally) information based, deductive and rational, that’s Men’s overt communication. Blunt, to the point, solve the problem and move on to the next. Feminine communication seems insane, it is a highly dysfunctional form of communication….,to be more specific, it’s a childish form of communication. This is what children do! They say one thing and do another. they throw temper tantrums. They react emotionally to everything. Yes, they do. And more often than not, they get what they’re really after — attention. Women are crazy, but it’s a calculated crazy.

Covert communication frustrates us every bit as much as overt communication frustrates women. Our language has no art to it for them, that’s why we seem dumb or simple at best to women. We filter for information to work from, not the subtle details that make communication enjoyable for women. This is the same reason we think of feminine communication as being obfuscating, confusing, even random. The difference is that our confusion and frustration is put to their ultimate use. So long as women remain unknowable, random, irrational creatures that men can’t hope to understand (but can always excuse), they can operate unhindered towards their goals. “Silly boy, you’ll never understand women, just give up” is exactly the M.O. Once you accept this, she’s earned a lifetime of get-out-of-jail-free cards. The myth of the ‘Feminine Mystique’ and a woman’s prerogative (to change her mind) is entirely dependent upon this covert communication.

Now as Men we’ll say, “Evil, immoral, manipulative woman! Shape up and do the right thing, saying one thing then doing another makes you a hypocrite!” and of course this is our rational nature overtly making itself heard and exposing a woman’s covert communication. An appeal to morality, that’ll get her, but,..it doesn’t.

This is because women instinctively know that their sexuality is their first, best agency, and covert communication is the best method to utilize it. Appeals to morality only work in her favor, because all she need do is agree with a Man’s overt assessment of her and suddenly he thinks he’s ‘getting through to her’. As Men, we have become so conditioned by the Feminine Mystique to expect a woman to be duplicitous with us that when she suddenly leans into masculine communication forms and resorts to our own, overt communication method and agrees with us, it seems she’s had an epiphany, or a moment of clarity. “Wow, this one’s really special, ‘high quality’, and seems to get it.” That is, so long as it suits her conditions to do so. When it doesn’t, the Feminine Mystique is there to explain it all away.

Have you ever been in a social setting, maybe a party or something, with a girlfriend or even a woman you may be dating and seemingly out of the blue she says to you privately, “ooh, did you see the dirty look that bitch just gave me?!” You were right there in her physical presence, saw the girl she was talking about, yet didn’t register a thing. Women’s natural preference for covert communication is recognizable by as early as five years old. They prefer to fight in the psychological, whereas boys fight in the physical.

Within their own peer group, little girls fight for dominance with the threat of ostracization from the group. “I wont be your friend anymore if,..” is just as much a threat to a girl as “I’m gonna punch you in the face if,..” is to a boy. This dynamic becomes much more complex as girls enter puberty, adolescence and adulthood, yet they still use the same psychological mode of combat as adults. Their covert way of communicating this using innuendo, body language, appearance, sub-communications, gestures, etc. conveys far more information than our overt, all on the table, way of communicating does. It may seem more efficient to us as Men, but our method doesn’t satisfy the same purpose.

Women enjoy the communication more than the information being transferred. It’s not a problem to be solved, it’s the communication that’s primary. When a chump supplies her with everything all at once we think, yeah, the mystery is gone, he’s not a challenge anymore, why would she be interested? This is true, but the reason that intrigue is gone is because there’s no more potential for stimulating that need for communication or her imagination. Too many men buy into the lie that ‘open communication’ is the key to a good relationship and do an ‘information dump’ believing their wives or girlfriends will appreciate it. In doing so a man denies his woman the satisfaction of communicating in teasing out the information.

Nothing is more self-satisfying for a woman than for her to believe she’s figured a man out by using her mythical ‘feminine intuition’. This intuition is really just a name given to her preferred form of communication.

Lastly, I should add that women are not above using overt communication when it serves their purposes. When a woman comes out and says something in such a fashion so as to leave no margin for misinterpretation, you can bet she’s been pushed to that point out of either fear or sheer exasperation when her covert methods wont work.

“Can’t we just be friends?” is a covert rejection, “Get away from me you creep!!” is an overt rejection. When a woman opts for the overt, rest assured, she’s out of covert ideas and knows she must use men’s form of communication. This is an easy example of this, but when a woman cries on you, screams at you, or issues an ultimatum to you she is self-acknowledging that she is powerless to the point of having to come over to your way of communicating.

Likewise, men can and do master the art of covert communications as well. Great politicians, military generals, businessmen, salesmen to be sure, and of course master pickup artists all use covert communications to achieve their goals. It’s incorrect to think of covert communication as inherently dishonest or amoral, or even in a moral context. It’s a means to an end, just as overt communication is a means to an end, and that end whether decided by men or women is what’s ethical or unethical. The medium is the message.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

331 comments on “The Medium is the Message

  1. “Make sense? Good.”

    No. Not at all. It’s all just your subjective feelings.

    I’ve found Married Red Pill Game invaluable. Game is good. Game is fun. Game gives agency.

    I find it fine to have my Frame. I’m OK with my wife having her own Frame. We’re not equal. She’s feminine and I’m masculine. We females and males are very different. And that is the good thing. I’d hat to have a masculine woman to be with. I’d hate to be feminine.

    I’m a big, big fan of using MBTI to facilitate relationships. My wife and I are complementary and different on three of the components, but the same on N. I’m INTJ and she’s ENFP. I’ve rubbed my hands and felt glee regarding that. It’s fun.

  2. @Stoic

    You sure use alot of words, the trouble with overthinking is when we get negative it goes to deep.
    This stuff is real simple, she has been taught to have frame,her biology forces her to look for a man with stronger frame she can fall into and relax. We are looking for complemenarity,not to change women. They are not changeable,men however are and they need to stop listening to women,trying to fit their frame… Rather pay attention to other men like Rollo and many of the commenters on this blog in order to get the real skinny.

  3. The mindset of current PUA’s and ‘alpha’s badboys’ or whatever is that you WONT GET A SECOND CHANCE, that you HAVE to fuck her immediatly so she knows your serious and so you lock her down at least on an emotional level. While there’s some definite truth there in a roundabout sort of way, the intent should still be to NOT go out looking to fuck a bitch unless you INTEND to lock her down also. The reason guys need so desperately to learn game is every motherfucker isn’t bothering with locking that bitch down, they just fuck her and move onto the next one, how fucking stupid is this shit? Men have no fucking gameplan? We jsut gunna let all the sluts slut and all the ‘alpha’s fuck with no intent of lockdown??? Fuck that shit man. Any motherfucker who thinks he’s just going to go around fucking to fuck and has no intent to lockdown isn’t ‘alpha’ – he’s a little fuckin boy who is scared of making a family and passing on his genes. Any actual man will tell you creating a family is the most alpha shit you can do. If your a little bitch going around fucking all the women just to get your little dick wet than you got fuckin issues and I won’t mind telling you your a little boy. The only reason game is acceptable to THAT level is because men need it to fight against the fem-centric disorder of society. But guess what, if men DID lock down these bitches, THATS how you eliminate the femcentric society. It’s really that fuckin simple. You lock her ass down and marry that bitch you fucked who is emotionally yours now and you restore order to the chaos. To a guy fuckin 100 bitches might not have an emotional toll on him, but any girl who fucks 100 guys is fucked up beyond repair. It doesn’t mean men SHOULD go out and fuck every girl they can fuck, what it means is if you go out with an INTENT to fuck, you better also have an INTENT to lock her down as well. Motherfuckin faggots at RSD want to tell guys to just go out and get laid and get their little dicks wet. I realize most men NEED the hard truths of the dating scene and reality and NEED to see first hand how slutty girls really are, but why the fuck are we as men encouraging this fuckin shit? You feed the monster of feminism and cultural Marxism when you tell guys HOW to get laid, and yet don’;t force the slut to NOT SLUT. Men are OK with sluts because it gets their little dicks wet. guys nowadays are such little faggots with no moral virtue in the slightest. Bunch of fake alphas running around that are too scared to tell a bitch she’s a slut and you won’t fuck her. Cultural Marxism DOES NOT want families, DOES NOT want men in relationships, it wants one massive fuckin group orgy.

  4. @boulderhead

    Are you kidding me? I want to change women, I have no problem wanting to change them, bunch of sluts running around all over the place – first change is just to tell her to get the fuck off her phone and social media. There’s one quick fix. Fuck ya I want to change women, they are super fucked up these days men. Lose weight, grow your hair out, don’t get anymore fucked up tattoos, stop dying your hair, stop swearing – there’s all kinds of shit women need to change.

    @SJF

    ya, game is ‘alright’ ok, I’m not doggin on the seduction process, my ‘ranting’ (explanation) is in regards to how using game is essentially submission – men of the past didn’t give two fucks about game – the woman DID what she was told and to her THAT was erotic to submit – sure men have always loved women and women love men and they like to tease and seduce each other in different ways based on certain subjective cultural influences – for example viking women would literally fight their man – if he couldn’t pin that bitch down you think she was going to stay with him, no…but here’s the thing, men of the past didn’t give a fuck nearly as much men do now, and why do men do now, because they are getting raped by society – society has a big influence over any ‘game’ a man thinks he’s ‘good’ at.

    INTJ huh, you should know ALL ABOUT that selfish Fi I’m referring too then. INTJ is obsessed with everything making perfect sense to their own structure, so not surprised you don’t understand my ranting. But I’m sure your Ni is finding my patterns amusing.

    the ultimate poit to all of this is simply your fooling yourself if you think your frame (as a man) is really influencing her. She lives in her own frame 24/7 – fish in water – she doesn’t question water. Just because you roll in thinking all of a sudden you ‘have frame’ dosn’t change the fact that to her she’s oblivious to it. The only ‘frame’ you think you have is any ‘appearance’ your giving off (or lack there of) – I’m talking more from a layered perspective here ok man, thats why it doesn’t make any sesne to you, youde have to see a drawing of what I’m saying for it to make sense probably. 1 layer is the OUTER layer which you and here both acknowledge – this is like your overt teasing together with her etc, on the surface THIS may LOOK or appear like a ‘frame’ you can go in and out of – it’s not – it’s just overt teasing. The 2nd layer is the covert game I started this whole rant on and what the article is about “the medium is the message” – this layer is exclusively HER frame, you are participating IN her reality when you go into covert frame with her. For you MBTI nerds out there, her Fi is dictating EVERYTHING to her in this mindset, your presence will only enhance or disrupt whatever she’s FEELING in THAT moment. You can sort of ‘game’ her using covert, but it’s long term destructive – like trying to be emotional with a child and doing EVERYTHING with the little kid, at some point the little kid’s feelings will backfire and YOU having played along will be on the recieving end – they will resent you even more than if you were JUST open and direct and honoest.

    Yes, yes, I love that women are women and men men, duh, obviously – but the fact remains that WOMEN NEED to be more objective, need to be more direct and forward – THEY AR WAY to fuckin childish – especially today, what man in the past could call himself a man and put up with the constant bitchiness of todays girls, he’de end up fuckin killing her cuse 75% of them are fuckin retarded children.

  5. Stoic101
    Point is simply whenever you try to game her your entering her frame

    No. This is false. You cannot build any logic on an obvious false statement like this.

    You’re emotion is all over your words, like a drunk telling a long, meandering story that has no point. Stop emoting. Start thinking.

  6. Stoic 101

    Are you a sockpuppet for The Artful Man or for Pat Stedman? or one of their acolytes?

    You obviously demonstrate that you haven’t read any Rollo, or you would realize your rants are baseless in regards to his body of work.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/28/humanism-behaviorism-and-the-amorality-of-game/

    “Any motherfucker who thinks he’s just going to go around fucking to fuck and has no intent to lockdown isn’t ‘alpha’ – he’s a little fuckin boy who is scared of making a family and passing on his genes. Any actual man will tell you creating a family is the most alpha shit you can do. If your a little bitch going around fucking all the women just to get your little dick wet than you got fuckin issues and I won’t mind telling you your a little boy.”

    That’s for each man to decide on his own.

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/05/24/two-guitars/comment-page-3/#comment-157964

    “But I’m sure your Ni is finding my patterns amusing.”

    No, actually I find them kind of sad and humorless.

    “the fact remains that WOMEN NEED to be more objective, need to be more direct and forward – THEY AR WAY to fuckin childish – especially today, what man in the past could call himself a man and put up with the constant bitchiness of todays girls, he’de end up fuckin killing her cuse 75% of them are fuckin retarded children.”

    Don’t see it as what it ought to be, take it for what it is.

    Women don’t need to be more objective, more direct and forward. In fact that is what The Feminine Imperative and SJW’s are currently doing. And it surely ain’t working. They need to be more feminine and less masculine.

    Stop trolling, use some paragraph structure, shut up, and read some Rollo.

    1. I get the same feeling. Artful is a lifetime troll who creates sockpuppet accounts on Twitter and other forums (Reddit) because it’s all he has in life.

      Stoic has been systematically going through all of my posts to ramble in pretty much the same way about every one of them.

      You’re not gonna change the mind of a Secret King.

  7. Stoic 101:

    Understanding the strategies of your opponents and using that knowledge to your own tactical advantage is not falling into their trap.

  8. Never heard of The Artful Man or Pat Stedman before, but they must be legit if they preaching what I’m saying. I’m not trolling, I’m educating, there’s a difference. You think you have it all figured out, clearly. And yeah, I get that Rollo’s ‘body of worked’ is based on one thing, just because I’m suggesting something else doesn’t mean I disagree with his work, the stuff on this website is legit, I have no problem with most of it. I’m simply giving my own pov on the matter. Are YOU sure that YOUR not the troll or acolyte? I’m providing my pov, if you don’t like it give me some reaosns for why I’m wrong. The whole point of a discussion board is to have discussion. Why the fuck would I want to be a talking head simply nodding in approval with every comment? Like I already said, Rollo’s site is legit, there’s some great info on here, but I’m simply extracting my own pov and elaborating, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to read it. Clearly you dio like it ro you wouldn’t bother replying. Same thing girls do bytheway, when there’s ‘darama’ a girl might say she hates you but she’s still replying. Pretty classic example actually. So either provide to the conversation and my questions at hand or go your own merry way, no one’s making you read my shit. I have’n’t read EVERYTHING on this site so I don’t know EVERYTHING Rollo thinks or doesn’t think, he can feel free to add his own opinion or re-link me to his other articles like you have done or if he feel’s so compelled he can give me better reason to believe him if he thinks I disagree. I don’t think I’ve said anything which is entirely inaccurate either.

    And no, sorry dude, it’s NOT for every man to decide whether he wants to randomly go aorund fucking girls. You wanna know why its not every mans own personal decision? Because any bitch he fucks and gives an std too I’m gunna have also if I end up with that bitch. His slutting around DOES effect me and everyone else, you’de be an idiot and totally oblivious to shit like HIV and STD’s if you think otherwise. Not to mention the social implications of fucking a girl and making her a whore.

  9. Women being more objective DOES make them more feminine – again I don’t have 2 hours to sit here and explain everything to you. Being objective DOES mean acknowledging your gender, but when you have women who are so insanely subjective than yes, they need to be more honest with WHO THEY ARE – I’m not saying for women to be like men, I’m saying for them to have an objective honest assessment of self – by doing so makes her more womanly and caring and nurturing and all the other traits men love in women – just because women are inherently subjective doesn’t mean they should ALWAYS be subjective in EVERYTHING that they do – who the fuck wants that shit? Feminist are ENTIRELY subjective – they do not have direct and honest communication with fuckin anything – its all based on their own pov – you have it backwards my friend. When a girl is direct and open in communication it makes her more AWARE of her reality OUTSIDE of herself – it makes her more womanly because she begins to acknowledge her environment and her impact and learns self respect for herself and others by soing so. If we allow women to ALWAYS be 100% subjective ALL of the time THATS when you end up with feminism. The feminine imperative WANTS YOU to think they are being direct and open, but if they were they would be acknowledging their own female role and they would be submitting to it. You’r sort of misrepresenting what I mean by direct, I suppose I have partially myself to blame for not being clearer. The point is simply that direct and open and honest communication makes a girl more womanly because it takes her out of her head, puts her in the environment, and makes her realize her position and place and actual worth. Most girls act like fucking retarded insecure children and I blame men for raising them this way.

  10. @kfg

    “Understanding the strategies of your opponents and using that knowledge to your own tactical advantage is not falling into their trap.”

    Her frame is locked in place, all you can do is try to persuade her one way or another, but ultimately she’s the one deciding whether she’s going to fuck you, you aren’t really the chooser, it’s unfortunate but girl’s don’t see past their solipsism, and so she’s going to ALWAYS 100% think it was her idea, and if she ever thinks its not, that’s when she cries ‘rape’ and ‘harassment’ on you. Game is a means to make it seem like it’s her idea, it’s all an act essentially.

  11. I’m not young, and I’m not angry, your writing simply lacks any sort of actual caring in it, that’s why you think I’m coming off aggressive, cuse you read stuff in your own Ti echo chamber and don’t want to acknowledge maybe you could be wrong. I don’t give a fuck if how angry I come across, most guys are such little fuckin bitches they need to be more angry. I’m as calmn and cool as a motherfucker, I simply write aggressive because I actually am passionate, not a robot like you my INTJ friend.

    “I am robot. I submit to Rollo. Only Rollo knows truth. Rollo will never change mind. Rollo’s body of work does not allow him to change mind. I use only proper grammar and dispise those who do not know how to write. I am robot. I have no passion. I have no dick. I like game. Game is good. Game is life. I am robot. Hear me roar. I let my seduce me. I think I have frame control. I am robot.” – -lawl

  12. “I have’n’t read EVERYTHING on this site so I don’t know EVERYTHING Rollo thinks or doesn’t think…

    ….. I don’t think I’ve said anything which is entirely inaccurate either.”

    At least you might want to re-read the original essay you are posting comments under. What don’t you understand about the language (including subcommunication) that women speak actually is direct. You just can’t interpret it properly and that makes you say that if only it was direct, it would be easier for you. I wish the German language was in English.

    Your subjective feelings about the matter don’t make you or your words accurate.

    The way I interpret your angry young man ramblings that you wrote is that you don’t understand the nature of women. And want to change their nature. Good luck with that.

    “Most girls act like fucking retarded insecure children and I blame men for raising them this way.”

    That’s odd. I don’t find it that way in my environment. Either I use Law #10 of the 48 Laws of Power to my advantage, or our environments don’t resemble each other’s. Which also makes your un-indented paragraphs inaccurate–see how that works?)

  13. @stoic101 yes I know exactly what your talking about. A lot on men in the red pill and MGTOW have a “live in the decline mindset. Theve believe they already lost and society is already destroyed so there’s no point in changing anything. But they will keep complaining how women are this that and the third and won’t change and thing, I see it all on YouTube. It becomes annoying actually. YouTube’s talk about the same things all of the time but won’t come up with a solution to stop it. It’s no different than what females do they bitch and complain but won’t actually solve the problem and they you get shamed for wanting to change things. I thought I was the only one who thought this way.

  14. @SFJ

    What’s your point? There nature does change, all of the time, they be like water, they change to their environment constantly. I’m on like a whole different wavelength than you are man. It’s like talking to a brickwall, your only hearing what you wanna hear, do you not have any way to think abstractly at all? ZZZ….Girls change based on their environment all of the time – what’s difficult to understand about that? Girls nature is based on their environment, change the environment, change the girl. Your ad hominem’s are fucking pointless man, you simply don’t understand the shit I’m saying and you can’t think abstractly enough to comprehend it and so you gotta resort to personal attacks.

  15. “I’m not young,…”

    You know I was going to add a statement in parentheses: “But if your not young you might really be Fucked in the head.”

    …and I’m not angry, your writing simply lacks any sort of actual caring in it”

    Want to guess what my Big Five Agreeableness score is?

    Question for you: Do you spend any time in all male spaces on a regular basis over the decades? One where there is not more than one female in a group? And said female is a hostess at that?

    And are you going to now lecture me on how my INTJ works against my Agency and Purpose. How is Sperg-Like, despite the fact that it got me to where I am.

    You know like I don’t have any Real Power: the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we control the directions of our lives.

    “I have no dick”

    How’d you slip that one in there? Guess how many women/plates I got in rotation right now? (Trick Question).

  16. @j

    Again, another ad hominem, you know nothing about myy personal life or me. You simply think I’m some angry guy that can’t get laid. Ad hominems are fucking pointless. For the record, I’ve already said this, I’ve had “wild success” with girls. asked out hundreds of girls, literally. Been gaming for a really long fuckin time. And Tyler has some okay things to say, but the dude is ultimately just a weasel faggot, listen to him talk about masturbating, he’s like a fuckin monkey, has no moral proclivities in the slightest, everyman nowadays a fuckin materialist loser with no fuckin morality or virtues, fuck anything that pases them by. “Let us eat and drink,. for tomorrow we die.” – like swine, sent to the slaughter….RSD excels at promoting half truths, they want it to seem like your AFC if you can’t get laid and that getting laid is all that matters. Whats his name, fuckin RSD Mdison, the black dude, heard him talkin for years now about trying to keep a girlfriend, if he could actually get married, don’t you think he would’ve by now? The goal of gaming isn’t just to get tail, jesus christ, bunch of fuckin children, think it’s all about getting pussy.

  17. “I’m on like a whole different wavelength than you are man.”

    Heard that one before. In the Pat Stedman podcast with TheArtfulMan.

    “There nature does change, all of the time, they be like water, they change to their environment constantly”

    Frame is not power. You are arguing for molding women’s frame with the metaphor of them being like water. They are like water. A big old ocean of water in a storm. They are never directly linear in the logic of their thinking. Not even those STEM girls.

    “It’s like talking to a brickwall, your only hearing what you wanna hear, do you not have any way to think abstractly at all?”

    90% of the comments I’ve written here over the last three years are abstract comments the other half of them are literal>

  18. @SFJ

    You do realize it’s easier to berate somehow who actually is putting forth ideas and generating a discussion right. You haven’t put anything on the table which even constitutes being a part of the discussion. Your simply a talking head nodding in approval to Rollo. If you got a brain maybe use it and add to the discussion. Instead you just want to sit there and ad hominem me left and right. Here’s an ad hominnem for you: your right, you don’t have a dick and your a fuckin passionless INTJ robot. Never took the Big 5 and don’t care about your score. Either add to the discussion or stfu. All your doing is ad hominems, quit while your ahead.

  19. @Stoic 101: “ultimately she’s the one deciding whether she’s going to fuck you”

    You were expecting that maybe the central committee was going to assign her to you?

  20. I’ve contributed to the discussion by pointing out to you as a neophyte that your misperceptions of The Red Pill and Game are just that. You just don’t see it as that though because you are ignorant of most of what that is and what it represents.

    And don’t be ignorant so as to think Rollo’s brand of Red Pill is the same as Game. Or that all Game is PUA game.

    Consider this:

    https://therationalmale.com/2017/08/17/misperceptions-of-the-red-pill/

  21. @kfg

    I wish man. That’s ideal society probably. I’m all for arranged marriages. Dating is bullshit and doesn’t work typically, especially nowadays. Cut threw all the bullshit and just arrange a marriage, lot easier. What makes picking and choosing great though is the power structure involved. You know how much she actually gives a shit, in an arranged marriage it becomes formality and the seduction process dies.

  22. @Stoic101

    “I’ve had “wild success” with girls. asked out hundreds of girls, literally.”

    So you didn’t fuck them? Ah I see. So the problem is in actually getting them to text you back huh? Well my friend texting is a whole different animal in 2017. I can share some links on how to go about getting them to meet you and fucking them. Feel free to share your progress on The Field Reports section and we’ll do our best to break it down for you 😉

    good luck

  23. “If frames not power why bother using it?”

    Now that is a real interesting question. Because it explains the premise on which you have been Rambling ON! about.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/12/frame/

    ….understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it. The forces that influence that lack or boost of will is irrelevant – just know that the conditions of an operative framework will shift because of them.

    Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.

    I’m done with trollwork for now. I’m going to go out to the cigar lounge and talk red pill with my larger than life buddy.

    My wife’s out at GNO.

  24. @SFJ

    And your proving YOUR not a neophyte by agreeing with Rollo? Lawl.

    I am robot. I submit to Rollo. I use my brain not. zzz.

    Dude, you clearly are obsessed with whoever has ‘authority’ of a topic. Rollo, Art of man, Pat whoever the fuck, me…do YOU have any of you OWN ideas? Just because YOU PERCEIVE me as a neophyte because you don’t think I’m correct, fine with me, think what you want about me, doesn’t change what I actually know. The problem is YOU have none of your own ideas and it’s pretty obvious your one of these guys who constantly appeals to authority.

    Keep linking me Rollo pages man, cuse you clearly have none of your own ideas on anything I’m bringing up. The discussion was on FRAME and the ‘medium is the message’ – focus robot, focus.

  25. @j

    Oh my bad, shoulda said I fucked literally 100’s of girls. Again, another guy who ONLY appeals to authority’s on a topic and doesn’t think for himself on anything. Would it really matter if I fucked 1, 10, 100, 1000, or 10,000 girls? Why is number even relevant? Oh, it’s becase your NOT A MAN if you havent fucked a 100 girls right? Zzzz….You guys are obsessed with appeals to authority. If I could actually show and prove to you I fucked 300 girls would you give a fuck? Would it even matter? Does that make me an authority on fucking girls? In some ways it does, but in other ways it doesn’t. You guys are letting ego get in the way. I’m trying to actually figure some shit out here, provide to the discussion or stfu.

  26. [Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.]

    She never truly enters a man’s frame though. That’s the problem. She’s entirely solipsistic. And if you enter her frame your setting yourself up for defeat.

  27. “She never truly enters a man’s frame though. That’s the problem.”

    Where is the problem with this?

    If you want her in your frame start your own quilting bee.

  28. Checkmate? What are you a fuckin girl? Again, with teh ad hominem’s. So what do you want? You want an actual number of girls I’ve slept with? I have had ‘wild success’ – you posted that stupid RSD video trying make the shit seem like I’m some AFC or something, “if you HAVENT had WILD SUCCESS with girls you MUST not know what your talking about” – again another appeal to authority. I mean go right on thinking what you want man, I don’t give a shit, the point here is to actually figure some shit out. Your concerned about ‘checkmating’ me, what are you some faggot? Gtfo here if you not gunna add to the discussion. What hypocrisy you referring to? The fact that number IS irrelevant, because it mostly fucking is, and it also kind of isn’t. I could be a pornstar and fucked all kinds of sluts but my game might be total shit, the number is irrelevant. But you posted that faggot shit about being AFC if you have’nt had ‘wild success’ or whatever the fuck. I have had success and have done more than I wish I have, but that shit’s besides the point. This shit I’m talking about is about frame and frame techniques and understanding covert game and applying it. Focus on the topic at hand, not on ‘checkmating’ and ad hominem’s.

  29. @boulderhead

    The problem is your her play thing if you don’t force her out of her head and make her directly acknowledge herself and objective reality.

  30. “The problem is your her play thing if you don’t force her out of her head and make her directly acknowledge herself and objective reality.”

    What I learned to do was force her out of my head, this way I can get more done, the things I need to do and like. She may never directly acknowledge anything, oh wucking fell.

    She lives in my home eats my food and shares my bed, she has her life and I have mine. I used to think on an egalitarian base, she must be stoned or something, in reality all women are like this. The frame is she needs me to be strong and let her be strong about her stuff,don’t let her be strong about mine. If we go out it is my choice,if I let her choose it becomes a shit test.

  31. @boulderhead

    Me: “She never truly enters a man’s frame though. That’s the problem.”

    boulder: “Where is the problem with this?”

    You DON’T want to be in her frame if ever – the only time I would ever advocate being in her frame is to fuck her and then to later neg her frame altogether after she’s emotionally invested. Your not doing yourself any favors by playing around in her frame. Men are meant to PULL women OUT of her head and into objective reality. That’s what were made to do and what she expects us to do. She ‘likes’ when a man enters her frame because it gives her power over you that she normally would never have.

    By frame I’m NOT referring to a FLIRTING seduction FRAME where both people are openly seducing each other – I’m referring to the frame ‘under’ that – where her emotional state is and which she never shows to men. Rollo pointed out something that was basically when the girl goes direct is a rare thing she shows men. I couldn’t find the article he said this in. Basically he was referring to how girls go direct because the girl has no other means to explain herself to the man and he just doesn’t ‘get it’ or whatever. The man hasn’t sub-communicated with her correctly or to her preferred standards and so has no other choice but to go direct.

    The point I’m trying to elucidate here is by gaming her your entering her frame. You haven’t really accomplished the primary goal of game, that being to get what you want from the girl. Gaming a girl is just being her play thing, it’s not an end result for men to aspire to.

    1. Girls go direct when they absolutely need their message to be heard because their communication style is covert and a guy isn’t getting it.

      What you’re upset with is that you expect women to communicate like men do. You’re looking for a rationality that doesn’t exist in women. A lot of hard ass Betas who just learn about Game or become Red Pill aware expect this. You’re not the first guy to think that women should just say what they mean and mean what they say, and they’re gonna have such a solid self-frame that women will immediately see that as attractive and go “oh, what was I thinking, of course you’re right! All of this makes such practical sense that I should be hot for you that now I feel tingles because of it.”

      Game works for a reason, it creates feelings and associations with those feelings. It can be good feelings or bad, they just need those feelings to excite them. You know how many guys I’ve had come to my blog and think that only pussies run Game? And yet PUAs have been running Game and getting laid with predictable regularity since 2000, why? I’ve had countless guys say what you are now. They think running Game is beneath them and women should just instinctively feel good feels for them because their authenticity and take-no-shit attitude is what sets them apart.

      No one’s saying to take women’s shit and play along with their head games. I’m saying be aware that they communicate differently.

      You should read Dancing Monkeys:
      https://therationalmale.com/2015/04/17/dancing-monkeys/

      Even Roissy was dealing with your mindset 10 years ago.

  32. I’m not trolling man, I’m extrapolating my opinion. I like your posts. If you don’t like other pov’s don’t have a discussion thread. At least you’ve lasted longer than Roosh. I post on his website couple times and he deletes everything I post. Lawl. you either want insightful discussion or you want an echo chamber man.

  33. You being the Secret King of course. you do know everything right? Or are you willing to change your opinion on certain things? I’m just a student of life, you either want to learn or you can sit on your high horse all day long.

  34. “She ‘likes’ when a man enters her frame because it gives her power over you that she normally would never have.”

    What you are describing here is a sick relationship, She has power in my kitchen, she uses my buying power at the store, she doesn’t want me to enter her frame and be her bitch she wants a real man, and I give her that.

    The primary goal of game is highly variable depending on a mans position at the time, taking into consideration all the possible variables it becomes a lifelong study. It really isn’t that women invented game it is that they know no other way to function, if you try to force her to function without it you will break her.

  35. I get it man, just like I told you Roosh. You guys have a website and books and making money off of this. No one wants there website spammed by someone preaching a different pov. But you can’t have it both ways man. You either want discussion which will open you up to people who disagree or you don’t. Don’t think you can have comment section and not get guys saying they disagree. If thats a problem for you then just shut down the comment section altogether. I’m not spamming or trolling. I enjoy the discussion cuse its intellectual. Until it gets off course and everyone wants to ad hominem instead of explaining themselves. I like intellectual discussion ok, Rollo you got all of your pov for the me to rea dup on, thats awesome, as far as these other guys go all I’m getting are them pinging back to you with their ideas. Anyways, I guess having a comment board is too much for you. I suggest you take it down or dleete my posts seeing as they may disrupt your books sales. Believe it or not but I actually agree with most everything you got on here, just a few things which are confusing to me is all. Oh btw MBTi is legit, I suggest you read more into it. Or are you too much of a hard materialist? Anyways I’m done, enjoy your echo chamber.

  36. Women are already broken. You can’t break her anymore than she already is. Your fixing her. Sure, you can give her a bit of frame control every once and a while, maybe early on, but that’s not what men are meant to be supplying to women. She doesn’t want frame control but she’s at the mercy of her existential crisis. it sounds like my ideas aren’t of value here so I guess I’ll go elsewhere. Have fun in your echo chamber boys.

  37. Oh my god man, its not about NOT running game. Running game is ‘good’ as a seduction tool. The WHOLE point your missing is that any game you run is submission to her reality frame.

  38. When I say direct I don’t men ‘direct’ like men; i.e. like DIRECT forward speek and saying EXACTLY what is happening. Imean direct and open and honest openness with OBJECTIVE nature and reality dude. When I say she needs to be direct I mean she needs to be hoest with herself. Unlike say the opposite; like a feminist who isn’t honest with women and how a girl can still be 300lbs and be ‘beautiful’. I’m not frustrated at womens communication style dude. it has nothing to do with being frustrated at how women emotae feelings, it has everything to do with the fact that anytime you attempt sub-communication with her your entering her frame and she see’s you as her play thing. Anyways I’m done, forget it.

    1. First off, you’re misconstruing Frame if you think using subcommunications is surrendering Frame. Frame is much larger than that. So you’re really talking about your belief that subcoms makes for weak men. Am I right?

      Everyone uses subcoms subconsciously to some degree. You cannot help it and women evolved to be very adept at reading them. If a man displays subcoms that indicate he’s confident and competent is that surrendering Frame? When a man displays Amused Mastery with a woman, is that weak? Any time you’ve ever interacted with a woman you use subcoms even if you’re not aware of it. Most guys aren’t.

      So, I don’t buy the subcoms argument. But if I did what do you suggest would be a more practical way of Gaming a woman? You’ve obviously given this a lot of thought. How would a guy go about getting with a woman without using subcoms if that were even possible?

      Regarding Frame: Frame is your reality. If you’ve read Mental Point of Origin you’ll understand that Frame is a meta extension of a man who’s his own first interest. That reality isn’t some Game technique to be used on women to convince them to fuck you, it’s the operative psychological environment in which you deal with other people. For instance, my wife and daughter acknowledge the authority of my Frame, but when I’m working with a client for my business I’m generally in their Frame because that’s what business necessitates some time.

      What exactly does “direct and open and honest openness with OBJECTIVE nature and reality” mean? Can you give an example?

  39. Stoic101
    Game = entering her frame – which means game is an illusion of control

    False. Repeating falsehood doesn’t make it true.

  40. Stoic101
    Roosh. I post on his website couple times and he deletes everything I post

    Gee, I wonder why? Troll for flames much?

  41. Stoic101
    The WHOLE point your missing is that any game you run is submission to her reality frame.

    Wrong. Again.

  42. As far as dancing monkeys go, I have no problem with someone switching gears and gaming girls, it works right, chicks dig it right? ZZZ…. That’s not a problem here man, the problem is creating a society of clowns believing that its acceptable. Her reality frame will never change.

    You have some post on here about the Alpha dbag kid who threw the party and the kid is a total clown etc etc. Yes, thats alpha, I totally agree with you. Now why is it alpha? Do you think that guy gives two fucks about trying to seduce a girl? No, he just naturally doesnt care. Think about if ALL men were as solipsistic as ALL women are. Think about it man, they’d ALL be like that alpha kid, none of them would give a shit trying to impress girls and trying to game them. No alpha gives a fuck about game dude. Because game is naturally submitting to her reality frame. Any real alpha is more concerned with his own shit, she’s gunna have to be the dancing monkey for him, not the other way around. Gaming isn’t alpha behavior, it’s like teaching men how to play with children. If all men were themselves solipsistic and only worried about themself and thelseves alone girls would revert to type and become the dancing monkeys instead of men.

  43. How am I wrong? you fuckin guys provide no arguments except Rollo. Simply dismissing something as wrong doesnt make it wrong. Provide something of substance, jesus. Shes solipsistic man, EVERYTHING you do with her – ANY interaction – is a submission to her reality frame – she does not give two fucks about what YOU think – EVERY girl is essentially just like that dbag alpha in Rollo’s post:

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/

    They don’t give two shits, any ‘game’ your doing is simply being that dancing monkey. Her entire reality frame revolves around herself 24/7, she lives it, breathes it, etc. Game is an illusion of frame and thinking your having success.

  44. Stoic101
    I enjoy the discussion cuse its intellectual.

    You’re babbling. Not discussing anything.

    boulderhead
    So what you are saying is we could all think like you if we tried trolled harder?

    FIFY>

  45. You want to use Corey as a subcoms example? Just watch the guy. Every motion he makes, every attitude shift, his physique / appearance, his DGAF impudence, all of that and more are subcoms that the hot little anchor woman was getting off on. Is he using them consciously? Likely not. They emanate from him naturally which stem from his self-perception. But those subcoms are there.

    Men are not natural solipsists, we’re idealists. We look at the outward world and focus on what could be. Women are natural solipsist because their focus is always inward and this stems from their evolved need for security and survival – it necessarily has to be all about them. So yeah, Corey’s DGAF sensibility makes him attractive, primarily because he’s always been his own Mental Point of Origin. That’s why he’s a rare outlier in all of this. He has unique qualities that women naturally respond to, but he’s not a solipsist, he’s simply self-detached. He lacks any kind of self-consciousness, but if he were a 300lb slob with his shirt off and copped the same attitudes he would come off entirely different.

  46. Gaming isn’t alpha behavior, it’s like teaching men how to play with children.

    13. Fallacy of the Natural Hate

    Hater: Naturals get women because they aren’t trying to get them.

    After many years of practice, I’m sure it looked like Beethoven wasn’t trying when he played piano.
    Or: A natural is simply a man whose game is internalized, but the tactics remain the same.

  47. Blaximus
    All I know is that lemonade is a cool, refreshing drink.

    Not hot enough for that out here in nowhere, but a cup of coffee and glass of water hits the spot.

  48. @ Rollo

    Sub-communication ultimately (as an end game) makes for weak men, yes. It’s because if your gaming her (with subcom) you’ve entered a reality which is meant to change based on her emotional state; i.e. your reacting to her. Yes, I agree as I’ve already said, using game and frame as a seduction tool works, its obvious it works, but at the end of the day the girl EXPECTS you to continue entering her sub-communication reality frame. If you covert game all of the time with the girl she begins to expect it all of the time. What ends up happening is you create the possibility for her to not subcom with you. Maybe that sounds stupid upon first reading, as if you should care, but once sub communication shuts down so does the relationship and also open communication. The point is its better to not sub-communicate at all, or very very briefly, if ever. If your constantly sub communicating you end up establishing a frame together with the girl which is one which is privy to her emotional state, the point is it will backfire if she’s in a bad mood. Regaining a relationship based on sub communication is the most submissive thing a guy could ever do. The point isn’t about men having ‘power’ or even perceived power, the point is girls DONT want to do everything, they already live in their own reality frame, your just a guest in her world.

    You’re posts and articles are basically implying that Frame is a tool, a means of self-projection, and you can use it (like game) to seduce the girl because you are making a ‘better’ projection of you. There’s nothing wrong with that, thats fine and a good way to use frame, the problem is ALL game boils down to how she feels about you. It’s never the reverse. The only time its the reverse is with natural alphas like Corey, or if men are raised in a society which doesn’t promote game and psychological warfare with girls.

    It’s not that sub-communication makes for ‘weak men’ – it makes for a relationship which is entirely based on sub-communication. Game is in essence basing a relationship entirely on sub-communication. Why is that a problem you might think? It’s because like I said, the relationship will be built around the framework of her emotional state, it’s bound to explode or fall apart at some point. Like you said, everyone constantly sub-communicates, all of the time people do different stuff which influences other people, etc etc. That’s not the point, the point is that GAME in and of itself is literally basing a relationship on that sub-communication. That being said I believe GAME is simply subcommunicaiton to the girl and accepting her frame.

    You ‘game’ her by bringing her ‘out’ of her reality. If there is such a thing as ‘true natural’ alpha game your example of Corey is pretty close to it. It would basically be caveman game. I’m not advocating men beat the girls over the head and drag um back to the cave, what I’m saying is like with the ‘alpha guru Corey’ – you simply don’t give a shit. There is no actual gaming involved. If NO MAN GAMED EVER, what ends up happening? Every man would be like Corey and the girls would become the dancing monkeys. You know why there is no actual ‘gaming’ involved…it’s because of the girls solipsism, as I’ve already said I think in all my rant spam. She’s already got her mind made up about you. Yes, you can put your best foot forward and ‘game’ her and basically trick her into thinking your a ‘real alpha’ – but at the end of the day she’s still the one sitting back, chillen (like Corey mind you) not doin shit, and being entertained by a bunch of guys. Ideally you never want a society like the one were in. Ya sure if a guy wants to get laid he can do it with game, thats obvious. That’s besides the point. Point being that your submission to her frame is a submission to an inaccurate reality and world view. It’s similar to having a child, and going along with everything your child does. Most men don’t think about it in those exact terms, they wouldn’t claim they are submitting entirely to her worldview – but they don’t get to choose what she’s literally thinking about you, they can only hope their ‘alpha’ act actually seduces her. Yes, you can enter frame and play along and tease the girl and seduce and do all the nice feel good alpha’ game stuff you have listed on your site. But at the end of the day men are still entering a subjective reality which they can only hope she’s in agreement with.

    “What exactly does “direct and open and honest openness with OBJECTIVE nature and reality” mean? Can you give an example?”

    -It means she’s acknowledging objective truths around her and being honest in herself, not seeing herself for what she wants to be (which is emotionally based) shes seeing herself for what she literally is in objective reality and accepting it. Sub-communication is not an honest approach to reality, it’s built on the emotional state of a person, not on the literal environment in front of you.

  49. Stoic you are reacting to subcommunication’s now. Just like she does when she reads me, I am not even trying to sucommunicate,it is something she picks up on and reacts to.

  50. Stoic just the other day,I turned down the advances of seven different women in bathing suits,not directly but with subcommunication. I had to be somewhere at five. The air of confidence that I carried the next day was picked up on by my spouse and she banged me like there was no tomorrow. That is how it’s supposed to work.

  51. “Sub-communication is not an honest approach to reality, it’s built on the emotional state of a person, not on the literal environment in front of you.”

    You are exchanging fundamental particles and cells with the environment, right now. Should that cease, so will your life. I know of no way to define a boundary between you and the environment (some of which is actually inside of you, while you recursively form its environment). Every person, exactly as they are, including their emotional states, is part of your literal environment. Inferring that they are being dishonest for being as they are and must be, is being dishonest about your environment.

  52. @ Rollo

    I suppose the burden of proofs on me – when I say gaming isn’t alpha – just think about your own post about the alpha Corey – the natural doesn’t game – so how could gaming = alpha? Gaming can give the girl the impression of alpha but it’s ultimately an inaccurate impression. I mean were probably going to have to agree to disagree on this, but to me what is alpha is taking a girl out of her solipsistic reality, even if she doesn’t like you for doing so. Most girls , just like most children don’t like being disciplined. How do you know your being alpha? Easy, when your in line with objective reality and natural order. Being alpha isn’t just about getting a girl wet, it’s about NGAF like you stated with Corey.

    A real alpha just doesn’t give a shit about gaming a girl, but HE DOES give a shit about bringing her out of her imaginary little world and discipline her. Does anyone like and enjoy being disciplined? No, unless your a stoic you fuckin hate being told your wrong, being told what to do, etc etc. Girls all the more. You see PUA’s getting cozy and comfy with a girl, they are masters of sub-communication, but what are they doing, they aren’t helping the girl; they re simply giving her what she wants. That’s like me praying to God and him giving me everything I want just to get on my good side. You don’t help girls by gaming them, you help them by standing up for natural order telling her when she’s wrong in her behavior. That’s the cloest thing to real natural game that I can think of. There’s nothing wrong with being friendly and knowing game and getting on a girls good side and playing the seduction game, the fallacy to all of this is thinking game is a cure all. If your not telling her she’s doing something wrong (because we all know she isn’t right 1005 of the time) than you don’t know what you should be doing either. Men have no standards, it’s no wonder they can’t keep a relationship. Rollo you mention about how you have a wife and daughter right, awesome, I know from that simple fact that you stand up for yourself and are able to communicate proactively with your family. You’d think that would be normal, but 50% of marriages in divorce. Anyways I think I’ve exhausted this thread and most peoples patience.

  53. “I suggest you read more into it. Or are you too much of a hard materialist? Anyways I’m done, enjoy your echo chamber.”

    “it sounds like my ideas aren’t of value here so I guess I’ll go elsewhere. Have fun in your echo chamber boys.”

    ” Anyways I’m done, forget it.”

    “Anyways I think I’ve exhausted this thread and most peoples patience.”

    Such a long goodbye.

  54. @ kfg

    Pretty much.

    Sub-communication is entirely based on the subjective, entering into it with a girl is to simply accept her subjective emotional state. It’s still not an honest approach though, especially not to a relationship. Why is it not your thinking. It’s because its like role-playing and living a fake roleplay reality, its not objective and natural, it s a’stage’ which has been fabricated between you and the girl, and you two are both on the stage. Men’s goal is to get women off of the stage and to be in touch with the natural truths of reality, not the subjective fantasies and stages we build.

    Sub-Communication is like actors on a stage, she thinks your thinking one thing, but you’ll never completely know what she’s thinking. It’s essentially basing a relationship on subjective fantasy’s.

  55. Stoic101
    Sub-communication is entirely based on the subjective, entering into it with a girl is to simply accept her subjective emotional state.

    LOL, no! Not even close. Got more black pills with you?

    Have you ever heard of MGTOW? I’m thinking you have…

  56. “Try it sometime with girls, keeps um coming back.”

    Under the assumption you are referring to the long goodbye. You could always move that suggestion to the ‘Creep’ thread.

  57. Sub-communication isn’t just body language, it’s innuendo, its words, stories, it’s basically anything saying something indirectly. Which makes you wonder what is being direct then right?

    If you say to a girl “I want to have sex with you” – thats obviously direct, no disagreements there right?

    When you put your arm around a girl and make out and then pull off her pants is that direct or indirect? To me that’s pretty direct, but I could see an argument made for indirect.

    So what’s indirect then? Indirect is innuendo, it can even be words (which don’t explicitly say whats happening) – Sub-communication is talking about something which is there ( in this case lets say sexual attraction) and naming it something else.

    So what is sub-communication then? It’s relative, it’s subjective, its entirely a conjured made up fucking fantasy land because it deals entirely with the subjects interpretation of whatever the is being subcom emoted.

    When your with a girl and you both are thinking about sex and then you start doing everything to allude to sex and then you start doing all kinds of SUB-communication with her which IMPLIES sex, THAT is sub-communication. You haven’t explicitly and directly stated the sexual attraction, it’s been communicated (consciously or subconsciously) by a different means.

    So, what is sub-communication – if its not directly and explicitly stating the sexual attraction and saying “Hey I want to fuck you right now” – than what is it? It’s communication which indirectly states a potential objective truth. Its relative and its subjective. Girls use plausible deniability all the fuckin time via sub-communication and indirect game – sub-communication GIVES her plausible deniability – and it ALSO gives you plausible deniability right? Wrong – because again, she’s solipsistic, so even if you imply or state plausible deniability she could care less.

    The point is sub-communication is relative as fuck, it appears grounded in objective reality – because it usually is, but at the same time the girl will interpret it however she fucking wants.

    What is the problem with this your wondering Why won’t this guy just stfu already right? The fucking problem is GAME, PUA, Framing, is all based on subcom, it’s all based on sub-emoting, its basing a relationship on the subjective value of two individuals, and not directly acknowledging the value.

    Simply put you need a girl to say she wants to fuck you. It has to be explicitly stated, otherwise you gunna end up with plausible deniability. The best relationships are based on her accepting the objective reality of the relationship. When she says’ “Oh I LOVE YOU” – “Fuck me harder” – “Lets have a baby” etc etc. Shit sounds stupid, but the point is worth noting, which is you need her to be constantly explicitly acknowledging what is ACTUALLY happening in the relationship between oyu two, if oyu don’t than your just living in her subjective framework.

  58. The pc libs and feminists and girls all cry foul over ‘rape’ – why? Well, I think it’s partially got to do with them subconsciously wanting men to explicitly make them (the girls) state these DIRECT objective truths.

    Feminists cry out “No means NO!” – or whatever the fuck. When your about to fuck a girl and she say’s NO, to a feminists NO MEANS NO! It’s fuckin retarded. But what feminists are subconsciously trying to get men to do is to get women to acknowledge objective reality.

    What women really want is to speak direct, but they feel censored and threatened and so they all indirect. Direct women are normally fucking cunts and everything they say is basically doublespeak. What I’m advocating is that women actually want to be direct with their man, they want to say “yeah, I really like you” – “Yeah I want to fuck oyu” – etc etc. Women need men to pull them out of their solipsistic state and make them acknowledge what they both objectively agree upon. The problem for girls arises because they ‘feel’ like they don’t understand their emotions – and so then the confusion arises about whether or not they should fuck the guy or whatever.

    What I’m advocating most men don’t want to hear I don’t think because they’ve given up on the idea of ‘controlling’ girls. When I say ‘control’ I’m implying leading her out of her solipsistic dream world and making her acknowledge objective truths in a relationship. THTA is control. Most men don’t want to hear that because it’s not a glamorous way of getting a girl in bed with oyu, its not ‘frame control’ or seduction, or a pua game technique, it’s simply a theory for guys to understand that when she acknowledges the relationship, thats half the battle. Just fucking her doesn’t mean all that much nowadays, she’ll emotionally rationalize it most likely, and come up with plausible deniability.

    Anyways I feel like I am getting a bit spammy, and I appreciate Rollo replying and given me his words of wisdom. I will read more first before giving my pov next time.

  59. @kfg

    How am I dishonest? Whatever man, bring something to the table instead of just attacking all the time. Child.

  60. Everyone you know has Game. Everyone you know, if you asked them, would gladly tell you what it is they believe is the best, most appropriate, most efficient, most sensible or most morally proper way to arrive at intimacy with a woman.

    Everyone has Game; how efficient and practical that Game is will always be the question. If you fancied a girl and simply talked to her over coffee you’re applying what you believe will work in getting her to be attracted to you, to be intimate with you and to fuck you sooner or later. That Game can be in an Alpha or Beta context, but the act of Gaming a girl is neither itself Alpha or Beta.

    A natural Alpha still applies what he’s deductively learned, but he’s still applying Game. He may not call it Game – to him it may just be him being him – but he is following a set of behaviors that has been productive for him in the past in the SMP. If you read Origins of Alpha like I said you’ll get a better picture of this:

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/06/29/the-origin-of-alpha/

    If I were forced to agree on what a natural is, it would be a man who’s a prodigy of sex—someone who gets laid way above other men with no formal instruction in game. This means he was not exposed to any 12 DVD “Cocky Humor” sets or seminars in a hotel room with three dozen other guys. You look at him and think, “Wow, he gets laid automatically. He was born to get laid!”

    But he wasn’t. Just because he didn’t read a book doesn’t mean he didn’t learn through trial and error like you did, practicing his game on a large number of women. It doesn’t mean that he wasn’t conscious and deliberate with his behavior, incrementally improving his moves and tactics over a long period of time. He has experimented like you have experimented, and he has also connected his attempts with results to figure out what works and what doesn’t.

    He may not be obsessive about it enough to log his data into a spreadsheet, but he’s mindful and aware of what he’s doing. He understands the mechanism behind charm and can often turn it on or off depending on what he wants. He has learned the type of humor and story-telling that gets a positive response in women. The last thing you can say about him was that he was born into the world with the “automatic” ability to fuck a lot of girls.

    And this is a quote from our friend Roosh.

  61. “How am I dishonest?”

    Boulderhead counted the ways. Every time you have bid us farewell we started counting 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . . aaaaaaaaand there’s his next comment – because we knew your overt declaration was false.

  62. “What is the problem with this your wondering Why won’t this guy just stfu already right? The fucking problem is GAME, PUA, Framing, is all based on subcom, it’s all based on sub-emoting, its basing a relationship on the subjective value of two individuals, and not directly acknowledging the value.”

    You may be right,I don’t think so. Every guy has to start somewhere. We are all not born intuitively knowing how to act around the opposite sex. females mature at a younger age and by nature start studying boys at least two years before the boys are interested. This gives them a head start in the “game”. I presume you are the kind of guy that will never admit when something is correct until it comes back to you as an “original” idea.

    You are mixing party game with relationship game, however even in a LTR she cannot afford to openly praise his value, nor he hers. Rather the simple courtesy’s of life and compliments of accomplishments are far more rewarding.

    This always thanking and singing personal praises, to acknowledge value is obvious game to a woman, she is thinking, why is he playing me. So don’t expect it from her,if she does it you are getting played, if you like it she has you marked.

  63. @ Rollo

    Agree for the most part and noted.

    I would simply say the girl still must be first open to that man’s said game – which means the man still has to enter her framework. I don’t necessarily even care about Alpha or Beta, cuse like you said, it’s all dependent on context normally. For the record all I’m saying game is = to seduction, but to seduce is to enter her world. I’d much rather drag her out into mine.

    I like Roosh, learned a lot from him, too bad he didn’t want to have conversation. Oh well.

  64. @kfg

    You keep asking questions man. So I keep replying. Simple.

    @boulderhead

    Not sure what you mean by the original idea thing, I already acknowledge most of the stuff on this website is correct. I simply have my own lens I’m looking through and basing it off of. I do think there is an absolute way to approach girls which is the correct way. We aren’t robots ok man, but the whole point of the gaming community originally was to establish a consensus as to what works and what doesnt work with girls. And so I’m bringing my idea to the table. You either agree or don’t that simple.

  65. Stoic101
    I would simply say the girl still must be first open to that man’s said game

    In some sense. Maybe.

    – which means the man still has to enter her framework.

    LOL! No! Not even!

    Do you know what MGTOW is? I think you do….

  66. Stoic101
    the whole point of the gaming community originally was to establish a consensus as to what works and what doesnt work with girls. And so I’m bringing my idea to the table.

    Give us a Field Report.

  67. “I do think there is an absolute way to approach girls which is the correct way.”

    “What is the problem with this your wondering
    and not directly acknowledging the value.”

    This approach is lazy, you want the world to conform to your values, perhaps they worked for you at some stage of the “game”. The trouble is reality is fluid and we have to work hard to keep up with it.

  68. Stoic101
    “I do think there is an absolute way to approach girls which is the correct way.”

    You’re wrong. Again.
    Ignorant and unwilling to learn is no way to go through life.

  69. @Anonymous Reader

    She’s solipsistic man, your going to always enter her framework no matter what you do regardless of game or otherwise.

    This has been entertaining and all, but I’m sort of exhausted. Laters.

  70. You are exchanging fundamental particles and cells with the environment, right now. Should that cease, so will your life. I know of no way to define a boundary between you and the environment (some of which is actually inside of you, while you recursively form its environment). Every person, exactly as they are, including their emotional states, is part of your literal environment. Inferring that they are being dishonest for being as they are and must be, is being dishonest about your environment.

    Perfect.

  71. @Stoic101

    “This has been entertaining and all, but I’m sort of exhausted. Laters.”

    I think what it really is, You are to lazy to figure out how to scroll down and switch to newer comments. Just like your “game” lazy.

  72. Stoic101
    She’s solipsistic man,

    Yes. Women are solipsistic.

    your going to always enter her framework no matter what you do regardless of game or otherwise.

    LOL! No. You don’t even know what “frame” means, obviously.

  73. Seems like Stoic is implying that frame is the same thing as sub communication, which I guess you would sort of be entering her frame constantly if that’s what he means. If she is always solipsistic than it would make sense what Stoic is suggesting is accurate. Not sure what the hullabaloo is all about, I think the guys making some good points.

  74. @Max

    “Seems like Stoic is implying that frame is the same thing as sub communication, which I guess you would sort of be entering her frame constantly if that’s what he means. If she is always solipsistic than it would make sense what Stoic is suggesting is accurate. Not sure what the hullabaloo is all about, I think the guys making some good points.”

    Frame can be sub-communicated,this doesn’t make it the same thing as sub-communication. Entering her frame is a disaster waiting to happen, her frame is akin to a kaleidoscope of ever shifting emotions and feelings. What Stoic is suggesting is to take that from her and force her to operate through the same lens as he is using, this is part of the lie of equality.

    The big hullabaloo is that the guy is ready to snap, forcing all women to comply to his view. This can’t and won’t ever happen, what needs to happen is remove the blinders from Stoic’s eyes to allow some periphery.

    There are alot of angry men in the sphere, some guys get mad for a moment when you wake them up, then they get over it and carry on with the day.

  75. “What Stoic is suggesting is to take that from her and force her to operate through the same lens as he is using, this is part of the lie of equality.”

    A couple years ago, I used to frame battle in my Reconstruction. A buddy of mine who is a quick learner and we’ve traded field reports with each other over the last year did the same. As we got better at Mastery of our own Frames, the battles were no longer battles. In other words, we found ourselves not leaning into her Frame. I had had that repeated experience of not leaning into her Frame and keeping my Frame. And it worked.

    But she still had her frame and we still kept our frame. Men are not women, and women are not men. At that point the relationship was healthy and had masculine/feminine polarity and excess energy with sparks able to fly between the poles with sexual tension. And it was fun. No denial, anger, bargaining or depression involved.

    Stoic is Cypher. But his steak doesn’t taste good.

    Stoic keeps saying: “You guys are in an echo-chamber hug box here on TRM” because he thinks we are adhering to ideology, when in actuality we are using praxeology–“what works”–and why the heck would we give up what’s working in real life? What’s the alternative to that? To do what isn’t working for us?

  76. “Frame can be sub-communicated,this doesn’t make it the same thing as sub-communication.”

    Nor is indirect communication the same thing as sub-cummunication.

  77. Somebody needs “coming late to the dinner party” advice/instruction. He showed up with low free energy. And he’ll likely leave with lower energy unless he picks up and pays attention to what some of the attendees have as wisdom.

  78. “But she still had her frame and we still kept our frame. Men are not women, and women are not men. At that point the relationship was healthy and had masculine/feminine polarity and excess energy with sparks able to fly between the poles with sexual tension. And it was fun. No denial, anger, bargaining or depression involved.”

    ^ Model red pill relationship.

    “Nor is indirect communication the same thing as sub-cummunication.”

    See passive aggressive.

  79. “MBTI is astrology.”

    The one thing it’s good for is Entertainment.

    When used for categorizing other people in work organizations to predict performance or direct personnel into categorized job positions it is invalid and near useless. Because the four factors used in the figuring are often not on a polar distribution in one person. And the factors are fluid along a bell curve in different contexts.

    When it is used to Know Thyself and one’s strength and weaknesses, it is fun entertainment. Guess what helps in developing Talent? The same thing that Mentors provide in learning Mastery in a field: Fun.

    It’s been a big value added thing for me in following The 16 Commandments of Poon. ‘Cause its Fun.

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