Novaseeker had an excellent breakdown of how Hypergamy has developed and is radically altering a long established social order in favor of one centered on the female sexual strategy. This was timely for a post I was working on, so rather than allow it to be buried in the last thread I thought I’d riff on it a bit here:
So in my head, I tried to think of what the best response to hidden estrus would be from a male perspective, and the only thing I could think of was essentially hiding male horniness, I used the word stoicism. The only way to balance the effects of hidden estrus is for all men to simply appear to not want what a women are offering, to appear uninvested, uninterested, etc.., because this again gives the perception of a lack of abundance to the women and re-balances things. Eventually such behavior would become selected for to some degree, and male emotions would become less prominent.
I agree with what you are saying, although I think it’s important to bear in mind that the expression of female sexuality historically was quite restricted, once we were at a level of more complex social organization beyond the rather small. Things did vary by community and culture somewhat, but once things reached that level of social advance, in most places a woman’s family/kin had a huge control over the expression of her sexuality, with the parents (largely the father) and to a lesser extent her male brothers exerting substantial restrictive pressure on the expression of her sexuality.
I should note here that while there is a definite social structure built around various strategies of mate guarding, these social mores and familial repression of women’s Hypergamous impulses does, in fact, stem from evolved, behavioral adaptations.
Kin Affiliation Across the Ovulatory Cycle : Females Avoid Fathers When Fertile Consider that girls will make subconscious efforts to avoid their fathers during the proliferative phase of their ovulatory cycle. Also, consider girls enter puberty at an earlier age when their fathers are not present in the family. Both of these are examples of phenomena that have a physical manifestation and a latent evolutionary purpose, but socially we build moral/social frameworks around buffering for (or sometimes accommodating) them.
Likewise, there are social controls that span all cultures that have the same purpose of buffering against the predations and mechanics of women’s Hypergamous natures. The most stringent of these might be repressing of women’s sexuality, but the latent purpose is still the same; controlling for paternity assurances.
There was, of course, cheating of the system that took place in terms of women bucking the system covertly, but most women were not sexual free agents in most places most of the time historically, and so were not acting on their estrus, concealed or otherwise at these later points in history. It does seem like something which likely occurred prior to the time we developed significant social organization (which is unclear when it precisely happened, but likely happened gradually quite some time before the development of large-scale agriculture), and is inherited from that earlier time, while the later social structures mostly, or at least in many cases, served to rather severely hem in the expression of female sexuality and free sexual choice to a large degree.
The Feminine Imperative that exists today still uses these historically extreme controls as a baseline for provoking an emotional response among women (and feminized men) today. In spite of the realities of Open Hypergamy and Open Cuckoldry, and paired with the fact that we live in the most sexually permissive society the world has largely known to this point, there is still a necessity to sell a narrative of sexual repression in order to perpetuate a social condition of ‘victimization’ among women and thus perpetuate a status of concern and primary importance.
So I guess my perspective is not that what you are suggesting is incorrect, in terms of the deeper evolutionary inheritance, but that the response of men to this eventually evolved, socially, into the use of social/legal/moral structures that acted as a counterweight to the inter-sexual issues raised by concealed estrus, and that, being social animals, this was itself also a powerfully selected thing (tribes that did not adopt similar restrictive measures did not generally survive except in relatively isolated areas where they were not exposed to the same degree of competition with patriarchal tribes and their sexually restrictive cultures). I suspect it dawned on the males in some tribal groups that the gains to be had from a kind of system of “one girl for (almost) every guy (who isn’t killed in war, or banished or enslaved)” when it came to women, in terms of reducing sex-related conflict among men, became more important when the scale/size of social organization grew beyond the small and moved to a larger, more complex scale, where different structures were needed to ensure cooperation and alleviate conflict which could undermine that cooperation and the scale made possible by it. So in other words, the strategy that men adopted had to do with the needs of the social order and the need for greater cooperation and less conflict once the scale grew to the point where close kinship among the males could no longer feasibly serve as a conflict-reducer effectively.
This was done, of course, at the direct expense of the female sexual strategy, and females have been scratching and clawing against that result in various ways ever since that time, but really have only recently had the success of overturning pretty much all aspects of that restrictive system (while retaining selective elements of it in form, mostly, as it serves their own interests) with the collaboration of most men, by the way, in the process (for various reasons, many of which Rollo has detailed in various posts on this blog). The resulting system is therefore new, and requires men to adapt, which is what we are about doing here, of course. The idea is to have a system which is of a large scale and complexity, socially, and which requires high levels of cooperation in order to function, while at the same time removing the last vestiges of of the “one girl for (almost) every guy” sexual system and replacing it with the freest, most open and adversarial system of sexual competition among males that our species has likely seen since long before the time we evolved into socially-based human groups.
I’ve covered most of the male adaptiveness that Nova mentions here in the Adaptation series of posts. For the short version, however, it’s important to note that even the sexual restrictiveness of women in prior eras were themselves adaptations meant to buffer against women’s conflicting sexual strategy. As I stated in the Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies, for one sex’s strategy to succeed the other must either be compromised or abandoned. Prior sexual restrictiveness was a repression meant to force women to abandon and later (in monogamy) compromise their own Hypergamy (Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks).
It remains to be seen how feasible this is, longer term, because it is still so new. And the adaptation required by men is substantial, because the change is gargantuan from anything we have experienced in thousands upon thousands of years, in terms of sexual system and related mores. I think relatively few will adapt, and the majority of men will fail at the system, in terms of actually getting what they want. I don’t mean most guys will be incel all their lives, but that their relationships with women will be extremely skewed to the women’s terms, through a combination of outright duping, indoctrination into wishful thinking, and a steady move towards ever more libertine sexual morality for women as a part of the further expression of the Feminine Imperative.
And that comes back to the concealed estrus issue, because the social solution that men in certain groups came up with a long, long time ago (substantial restrictions on female sexual expression) is now pretty much completely removed in this culture, meaning that it is playing a bigger role in human inter-sexual relations than it has been permitted to play in a long time. In fact, the development of reproductive technologies and the related legal regime supporting their free use has augmented the ability of women to utilize this aspect of themselves to tilt the field in their favor, well beyond what nature provided them, in terms of controlling who among the men gets to breed. Again, most men will not be able to adapt quickly enough and will be in lopsided relationships as a result. Other men, like us, are able to adapt and thrive under the new system as individuals, knowing full well we can’t really overthrow something like the sea change in sexual system that we have seen occur, even if we thought that was wise, which it may very well not be. Every man, once he comes to this realization, therefore has a choice to make, really, and a fairly stark one. Most guys have no chance, however, because they are totally subsumed by the feminine primary and never come to a realization of things as they are, and just what the heck happened in the culture, sexually, over the last 100 years or so.
Although my last post may have been on the melodramatic side, the exaggeration is still founded on the same dynamic Nova is getting at here. Since the time of the sexual revolution there has been a complete social abdication on the part of men to have any say in exercising, much less advocating for, prioritizing their own interests in the sexual strategies equation.
It’s gotten to the point that even men’s initiating an approach at the most marginal form of intimacy runs the risk of not just rejection, but legal and social punishments for even taking it upon himself. The onus of sexual selection, as per every legal mandate, is unilaterally placed upon the part of women. The latent purpose of this is to prioritize women’s sexuality and women’s sexual strategy (Hypergamy) above men’s – all while clinging to the pretense of the sexual repressions that they believe still characterize the condition of women.
If you ever wonder at the declining marriage rates, the delaying of marriage until well past women’s prime fertility years, male suicide rates being four times that of women or the rise of men who’ve contented themselves in being single for their lives look no further than this reprioritization of women’s Hypergamy as the socially predominant sexual strategy.
[…]
I would say that attempts at overt male control of covert female sexuality oftentimes amount to window dressing that only serve to help convince the men of their paternity, even when they’ve no reason to be assured of it. Only in cultures like those established by strict Islamic doctrine/Sharia Law can paternity be (mostly) assured by social forces. Outside of that, women can oftentimes have free reign at getting away with good old-fashioned cuckoldry.
In a social order founded on Hypergamy, that dynamic demands that men’s utterly abdicate their sexual and biological imperatives to women. This means any paternity assurances, or even the idea that they should matter to a man, must be surrendered to the point that they are literally conditioned and bred out of the consciousnesses of men.
I’m hitting upon this in the hopes of prompting some discussion about the aspects of Hypergamy Novaseeker mentions here, but also because I will be discussing much of this with Alan Roger Currie this coming Thursday night on his podcast.
We’ll be talking at 10pm EST/7pm PST and this will be a live call-in format, so if you’d like to participate I’d encourage you to do so. While my appearance is not necessarily an endorsement of Mode One or anything else Currie is selling, I respect him as a thoughtful interviewer and he’s been asking me to appear for some time now.
Beware the beast man
For he is Yahweh’s pawn
Alone among the Goddess’ primates
He kills for lust…or greed…or sport
Yea he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land
Shun him…drive him back into his jungle lair
For he is the harbinger of Death
Let him not breed in large numbers
Lest he make a desert of his home…and yours
@ Sun Wukong
A douche bag in a jacket is just an unmemorable douche bag.
People are remembering you because of your demeanor,you now stand out in a crowd as a higher value male.
Get used to it.
@karen “Because it symbolizes that not yet realized…but forever burning in the hearts of…dream of free people everywhere…the Execution of Yahweh…that murderous, manipulative being” https://youtu.be/NjgoxLv3OeI Deus In Absentia” In this your time of need You’re turning to the light You had just begun to explore the dark In the urban night The world is on fire And you are here to stay and burn with me Our funeral pyre And we are here to revel forevermore You’re so God damn frail Failing for a change You just had to know all about the world But you will never know ‘Cause… Read more »
@cheupez
” She might. Still fucking boring the next day”
This. First ltr 9 years… 2nd 6 years… Haven’t had one last more than 8 weeks since and most are less than 24 hours.
But this highlights one of my problems…I’m not qualifying them. I take no numbers. As long as she’s dtf that night and passes the boner test she makes the cut.
Time to change strategy
The trolls are winning – the overall endgame seems to be making the comment section irrelevant and unreadable. When I started RP I read Rollo’s archive in sequence from the beginning – comments and all. I viewed the comments and the commenters as just important as the articles. I learned so much from both. Unfortunately current articles have comments in the 600 count range and are mostly polluted by female trolls and their responses. I don’t mind skipping over the troll’s posting but what I find so unfortunate is some of the smart people here that would otherwise contribute to… Read more »
Some thoughts concerning Donald Trump’s agreement (cowardly retracted as it was) that women should be punished for illegal “abortions”… The human female is the only animal with a significant history of intentionally executing and disposing of her embryo when she considers her embryo to be an inconvenience to her. Many do not want to admit this fact but it is so blatant, elementary and self-evident, that those who are uncomfortable with it (for whatever reason) often seek to malign anyone who expresses this truth rather than debate the truth itself. Therefore, before discussing this fact further and presenting additional facts,… Read more »
Some haunting depression era pictures. Most of us forget what real suffering looks like.. She literally has worry etched into her face in that last pic.
@All – Everyone gets a chance. When @Karen went at RoyHobbes and reduced his POV as analogous to her manichean understanding of “racism” , she revealed what a silly worldview she actually has. In her case, it’s really too bad as she clearly is no dummy. She uses language well but to no good effect here. And then the cheap shot @Sun’s FR (nice progress Sun, I’m fucking proud of your growth), which she even acknowledges in a later comment was just shit-flinging make it’s clear she has no interest in making any contribution here. @Rollo – You are correct,… Read more »
Sun
Female to male interest… From a week ago… Massive IOI. Drive a truck through those open windows. Compliance test, dominant kino and bounce. Even just for practice.
@Sentient Yeah, I realized it was a big IOI. I think I was just surprised enough that I wasn’t really ready to do anything with it. The fact that I managed to acknowledge it and tease her a little bit at all was doing well with how surprised I was. @scrib And then the cheap shot @Sun’s FR She took a cheap shot? I didn’t even know until you mentioned it; she has long been a reason to use my scroll wheel. I guess people who aren’t doing jackshit to improve themselves just don’t matter to people that are actually… Read more »
OT: Something occurred to me by watching one of Todd’s videos. He was discussing the fear of showing intent and how the general western male population generally fears showing any real intent. It dawned on me that the age at which most young boys first experience showing intent to do anything with a girl other than throw mud at her, they are most often surrounded by female authority figures (teachers/single mothers). I also tend to believe that fear of showing intent (because biology does a good job of pushing men in that direction) is probably the big first step down… Read more »
@scribblerg
Yep.
Habd, Blax Interesting that most of the older posters had similar backgrounds re fights… same here, grew up in a working class neighborhood where fighting was just part of the fabric of the place. And those fights could be with your best friend one day – the spontaneous shit just kicks off over nothing (or the nuclear Your Mom joke!), and you are friends again later, or the sudden predations of a different group of kids (different neighborhood or race) entering the area to the old “meet me at the flag pole at 3PM call outs, where half the school… Read more »
There are social controls that span all cultures that have the same purpose of buffering against the predations and mechanics of attention whoring. The most stringent of these might be the repressing of women posting, but the latent purpose is still the same; controlling for quality.
In a social order founded on attention whoring, that dynamic demands that men abdicate their intellectual imperatives to women. This means any thinking, or even the idea that it should matter to a man, must be surrendered to the point that it is literally conditioned out of the consciousnesses of men.
Re: Tesla and Elon Musk. Being a denizen of Silicon Valley of a sorts, I’m always suspect of guys who won lotto out from a company there and then go on to preen about their later projects as though they are geniuses. It’s legion at the level just below the Musks of the world, but I have to disagree with @Jeremy in his characterizations of Musk while I also find the hagiography offered up about him is incomplete. I offer the following as a great precis and insight into Musk and what he’s doing. I think he’s without question a… Read more »
Sun Wukong Yeah, I realized it was a big IOI. I think I was just surprised enough that I wasn’t really ready to do anything with it. The fact that I managed to acknowledge it and tease her a little bit at all was doing well with how surprised I was. Possibly because you were no longer “in state”. You weren’t expecting an IOI in that physical location, and thus were surprised. Good job returning a verbal reply. You may still have some lingering scarcity mentality as well, that leads to the “me? You talking to ME?” mental moment. Abundance… Read more »
@scribb I’m sure your ability to read the personalities of such people is better than mine. I still, however, stand by my assessment of his “genius”. He’s another Steve Jobs, not a genius. He’s solving the wrong problems, burning cash like crazy. And at the risk of being a prognosticator, I expect he will flame out, and all his endeavors will be bought up by other companies and used as name brands. Full disclosure: The groups I directly work with are involved in qualifying SpaceX for AF contracts, so I do hear a lot about how that company works. Also,… Read more »
Jeremy
He’s another Steve Jobs, not a genius. He’s solving the wrong problems, burning cash like crazy.
Huh?
Next you’ll be telling us the Hyperloop isn’t practical…
@Jeremy – I didn’t say he was a genius. I’ve read many criticisms of Musk and SpaceX but perhaps you didn’t watch the vid? It’s the launch of the Tesla 3, and he’s already got 115,000 orders. I live in the world where people are placing those orders (the tech world) and I can tell you, that’s a mere start. SpaceX may crash and burn, but Tesla? Do the math. Avg sale price of 40,000 with options. Direct to Tesla, fyi. Multiply by 115,000. That’s a 4.6 billion usd order backlog. And the car won’t be out for another year.… Read more »
Geez…….red pill masters……NOT.
Unbelievable you guys, smart, focused and aware………and getting trolled by a girlie.
WTF…….tooled by someone with ovaries, on a site where all the wisdom of the world is laid out for you.
Sigh……
Scribbler I conceded the personality argument. The rest is mostly OT anyway.
Btw…..getting trolled by girls here is a SHIT TEST.
Responding in earnest is you FAILING said test…..
@Jeremy – But of course I said nothing about personality. Haters gonna hate, got it. Fyi, getting an undergrad in physics at U. Penn is not exactly the accomplishment of a moron and he was accepted at Stanford’s Phd program for applied physics, so perhaps he bullshitted all those academics about his intellect, while only you see through it, lol. Sure, he left the PhD program after a few days, but that’s because he’s an entrepreneur at heart, and a successful one. I’m not a fanboi of his but don’t hate him. You seem particularly exercised by the mere mention… Read more »
@Doubter
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/128/559/aaayr7.jpg
@ Sentient Lol about the ” chucks “. There were tons of guys in the parks on Saturday morning with their homemade ” broomstick ” chucks, practicing. Most got pretty good with them until Enter The Dragon came out and Bruce used 2 of them. Back to the drawing board everyone. Before they were outlawed, I used to go to Chinatown in NYC and buy them. They also sold practice chucks wrapped in urethane. That was a godsend. I admit, I do a really bad job of explaining my point about ” fighting ” and the need to stamp out… Read more »
@ scrib I’m onboard with Musk. It would appear that he is not ” alpha ” at his core, at least not fully, but that doesn’t matter to me at all. And I do not care if he hired 1,000 engineers to actualize his ideas. If anyone deserved tax breaks and subsidies or whatever, I believe the guys actually doing some shit should get these things. I get @ Jeremy’s points, but I counter that most of the people that actually advance a sector of society aren’t geniuses. Personally, I don’t expect one man to solve what I deem important… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SncapPrTusA
Little lesson in mastery…
“Lots of people are trying to come up with alternatives to combustion engines…”
The electric motor is the answer.
The problem is that the motor isn’t the question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN3FYAvK2zY
An even littler lesson in mastery…
@ Sentient
…. be careful, some guys will show up laughing saying ” you posted a movie?? lol lol lol..)
But I can’t resist ( @ Sun, you’ll understand this better than anyone here )
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWj-zU8koes?feature=player_detailpage&w=640&h=360%5D
All competent fighters/boxers of most disciplines will work tirelessly on feints.
Oh, correction dept: 2 nunchaka scene was in return of the dragon.
44 years is a long time to remember something…. lol.
@Sentient – The Bruce Lee ping-pong video is a well known hoax/fake. Not that it isn’t cool, nor that Bruce Lee isn’t an amazing example of mastery and manhood, hell, his smirk alone could teach us all something. But it’s not real. It was CGIed 35 years after his death for a Nokia commercial in 2008. Here’s an article on it http://factsfromfiction.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-bruce-lee-ping-pong-video-cool-but.html Okay, last night was a bust. I was so wiped from the week that i just passed. Have to learn to pace myself, and not be disappointed. I’m working long ass hours. Slept in till 9 today (a… Read more »
nymphomaniac is a fun, over the top but pretty (insanely maybe beyond) TRP movie (complete with -graphic- sexual representations of Af/Bb)…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySKkdfzvBfY
@Blax Heh, you know while Bruce Lee was a great fighter according to guys he trained with, he’s actually usually a pretty awful example of wing chun form. He rarely has a solid root on a lot of his punches, resulting in a lot of speed and agility but greatly reduced power. In fact their little example of a block break you can watch him hop completely off the back foot. Very, very bad form in wing chun, and a good way to have an instructor put you on your ass. (I know, as I’ve had it happen to me… Read more »
Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship blog comments section you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.
Karen is pulling a long train here. Troll whoring for fun n profit.
Need advice. Have talked with @HABD about this broad in the past. The penny dropped for me today. Not only does she have a huge crush on me, but I think she feels defrauded/scorned since she got no makeout when isolating with me three times. We crossed signals, I think. The first two isolations were my idea–to work on a dance pattern, but the last one was hers. This broad keeps attention-whoring whenever we are at the same venue. Talking with people in the center of my field of vision when I am doing a line dance. Doing a line… Read more »
@ Sun ” Heh, you know while Bruce Lee was a great fighter according to guys he trained with, he’s actually usually a pretty awful example of wing chun form. ” Lol, yeah. I gathered as much. In his movies though, you still caught those flashes from time to time. Because I am ego invested in loving Bruce ( lol ) I will chalk the bad form thing up to movie making…he he he, and the early stages of Jeet Kune Do making it’s appearance. A real mashup of styles, and I agree that you see some fencing style moves.… Read more »
Our main school does, but the one I generally attend doesn’t currently. It’s not really a huge loss though. The dummy is primarily for use when you don’t have a partner available, and our class time is basically 100% partner work when you’re not just working on forms in the mirror. The dummy is pretty iconic for wing chun, but partners are able to supply energy that the dummy can’t in their reactions.
@asd
have you considered being honest with her?
@Blaximus
I’d be the first to admit this. Most scientists are very smart, run-of-the-mill materials scientists. Without that army of smart people trying to do new things with new materials, you can erase the last 80 years of electronics advancement, probably a lot more as well.
@platinum, Six months out of a long term relationship with a bpd will have you feeling lost, fully empathize dude, give it time. Enjoy the present for what it is. I find mindfulness and mindful mediation helps me quiet the endless mental distractions and what ifs. The thing about dealing with a Bpd is the seeds of doubt that they plant in your mind. It’s so disorienting that you essentially start to lose your mind. There is also the matter of your codependent personality and your coming to terms with that. It takes two to tango lol. Find out how… Read more »
Entering a LTR one month after your marriage ended was a mistake, glad to see you’ve learned your lesson lol.
Scribble.. Man made climate change is a fact, agree with you on Musk/Tesla getting mad respect though. Wish I bought Tesla shares way back when.
Lots of opines on climate change. Hurricane Sandy erased all doubts for me. We had 3 hundred year storms in 4 years. wtf???
Blaximus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
Still reading Antifragile. Coastal Florida is most definitely not “antifragile”…
AR
My new theory: New Jersey and New York have fallen into a wormhole.
AR
Ouch. Black Swan Theory should be forwarded to all Emergency Response personnel.
Does anyone else get the impression that Karen has lot of TV experience but not much life experience? She might be intelligent, but her knowledge is shallow and reactionary. She seems far more interested in attention than in discussing to understand and communicate. Without understanding, intelligence really doesn’t mean much.
If she really is ShoeOnHead, at least she will have a few years to capitalize on her youth and relative attractiveness. Perhaps that’s why she’s doing antifeminism videos?
@ Roy Hobbs ” So the real question: how do we change this reality? (Not “back to the way it was” or any ass like that, but to a better or more balanced (?) reality) A great amount of input has been posted here over the threads and in the manosphere generally, about individual change. I, personally, have taken a number of steps to better myself… but this isn’t about any one man – I’m asking about the big picture.” Good Question. Well, one could hope that enough men would understand what’s happening to them/us, but we are pretty far… Read more »
@ Radium
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/274/401/614.png
Another observation about Karen is that she appears to be trolling based in the idea that the post feminism world is bad for men and good for women. In reality, feminist ideology is catastrophic for society and children, but necessarily bad for all men and not necessarily good for all women or even most women. Few women who follow feminist ideology are going to go into the STEM fields. This cuts competition way down for the men who are in STEM fields. The peak high percentage for women in STEM was 1984 if I remember correctly. I expect good pay… Read more »
@Radium And I know many more are self medicating with the box of wine. based on late night rants comments here from women, there is another version of pour girls Your comment is quite rational and accurate. Attention whores could care less. They will attempt to push emotional buttons (such as men here are “broken”, “slaves”, “failed”), that is to move the debate to the women’s battlefield. In reality, feminist ideology is catastrophic for society and children, but necessarily bad for all men and not necessarily good for all women or even most women. I see it as bad for… Read more »
Radium…
https://imgflip.com/i/11van2
Radium…
One more time.
Radium…
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/67669376.jpg
@redlight They will attempt to push emotional buttons (such as men here are “broken”, “slaves”, “failed”), that is to move the debate to the women’s battlefield. They look for this always. Had one do it in the bar tonight and her white knight grabbed my wrist when I had the nerve to tell her to lose 100 lbs before I’d care about her opinion. I warned him I was about to break his shit when the bartender got involved and the WK removed his hand. Only annoyance I have with myself is that it’s the only time I’ve actually let… Read more »
@yareally “Like, if you want to engage them, cool, do it knowing that there is ABSOLUTELY no point. There’s as much point as there is talking to the wall beside you. If talking to a wall is a valuable use of your time to you, then have at it. But if you’re engaging them thinking you’re going to teach them something or they’re going to see new perspectives and shit that they won’t revert back on INSTANTLY the second it doesn’t benefit them to think that way anymore, then you got more red pill to digest and should get the… Read more »
The problem I have with the current debate, is it’s too one sided. The discussion focuses on the irresponsibility of women but doesn’t even highlight the same of men. Man at his core wants the pleasure of sex, without any of the responsibility that’s derived from it. In years past, men did exactly that. Their offspring became the concern of any man who wanted to partner with a single mother out of wedlock. At the time this came with a social stigma attached. The resentment of this new man to the actions of the absent father and the child who… Read more »
@ollie
“But we need the current dynamic if we’re to avoid massive, resource scarcity.
It would be nice if the manosphere could accommodate a little critique of it’s own position.”
Uh… myself and the majority of guys who have swallowed the pill approve of women being picky. We see the situation as being beneficial to men who learn Game and society at large. Where is the need for balance via “critique” that would just agree with us?
@Sun Wukong and Blaximus – I’m really enjoying this digression into Wing Chun..(it’s about 100x more interesting than any of the engagement with the trolls). It’s like watching YaReally break down a pickup video – you watch it once and see some punching and kicking and then you read the breakdown and see how much more someone sees in those same punches and kicks. I used to do Aikido in college and I loved it before injuring myself badly enough that getting tossed to the mat dozens of times in each session was out of the question. I still read… Read more »
Re:Hypothesis on the increased in the arrogance of young women. Turns out that the people born since 1980 in the U.S. are the most educated but the least skilled ever. Check out this summary of how we stack up against the rest of the developed world in numeracy, literacy and problem solving in technology rich environments. Top 5 scores in literacy: 1) Japan 2) Finland 3) Netherlands 4) Australia 5) Sweden The United States placed at #17 out of 23. Top 5 scores in numeracy: 1) Japan 2) Finland 3) Flanders (Belgium) 4) Netherlands 5) Sweden The United States placed… Read more »
“If 80% of women are chasing 20% of men, then we can agree our population won’t increase over time.”
Taking the extreme case:
10 men, 10 women. The women only have sex with two of the men. Each woman has four children. The population triples.
@KFG – Ya, and such a reality might improve the genetic qualify of humanity too…
Scribblerg – ” Ya, and such a reality might improve the genetic qualify of humanity too…” ..only if women have the ability to select the best genetics. Which they don’t. This is the essence of the problem for all of us – women’s sexual selection strategy essentially ceased being viable for the purpose of finding the genuinely best genes around the time the first city was built. Mens selection strategy still works, because its based on physical assets of the women. Womens sexual strategy “pick the alpha of the group in front of me and/or check for congruence when we… Read more »
@The Jin – Not so fast, and yes, I did anticipate this kind of response…Only 50% or so of men have been able to pass on their genetic material throughout history, so I’m merely talking about a matter of degree. Monogamy and marriage forced women to mate with genetically inferior men to assure their provision. Eliminating this could improve genetic selection. You seem to correlate higher intelligence with less selection, but in fact, one of things women find attractive is intelligence, among other things. I think you assume that women wouldn’t select higher intelligence men, why? Clearly increasing intelligence would… Read more »
A few comments: @Blaximus: regarding at least physical bullying, FI or not, when it is a bigger and stronger kid (or kids, usually) stomping a weaker kid (alone, usually)… I don’t think it is a good solution for any society to just tell the weaker kid to sort it out by himself. I never understood this attitude. For adults we have armies or police for this sort of stuff, and for kids they can just fight back on their own when they are clearly outmatched? Bullies under a certain age get away with crap that adults wouldn’t be allowed to… Read more »
@IAS – Japan is are not reproducing at replacement rates and the trend is worsening. “A survey by the Japan Family Planning Association found that 36 percent of males between 16 and 19 had “no interest” in sex.” Something has gone haywire. Some will say that this is an adaptive response to overpopulation but Malthus died in 1834 when human population was well under 1 billion, yet more than 7 billion today thrive at record rates. So I’m so sure. I tend to think that social engineering and various social interventions have disrupted the social ecosystem so much that hindbrains… Read more »
>@The Jin – Not so fast, and yes, I did anticipate this kind of response…Only 50% or so of men have been able to pass on their genetic material throughout history, so I’m merely talking about a matter of degree. Whilst this is true, its at least partly because dead men do not breed. i.e. not female selection but the fact that a huge %age of the men have historically been cut in bits in a field somewhere by other men. (p.s. I dunno how this software works for quotes, give us a clue if you can.) >Monogamy and marriage… Read more »
@Jin – Right, so you don’t think a man who can present congruence and contextual alpha is likely of higher than average intelligence?
>@Jin – Right, so you don’t think a man who can present congruence and contextual alpha is likely of higher than average intelligence? Can, sure. But I don’t think being congruent and being high intelligence go together unless the intelligence is being used specifically for the purpose of wooing, because as I said earlier, the hallmark of intelligence is doubt and reasoning through issues, both of which are incongruent states of mind. Bertrand Russell – “The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.” The stats bear this out – you… Read more »
@jin This is the essence of the problem for all of us – women’s sexual selection strategy essentially ceased being viable for the purpose of finding the genuinely best genes around the time the first city was built. Their sexual selection strategy is okay, but their mate selection strategy is defective. 80 years ago: At 17+, when their SMV is the highest, look for a mate, get married, have kids 40 years ago: Go to college, get education and look for a mate, if that fails, look for a mate as soon as possible after college, before their SMV drops… Read more »
@Kfg birth rates are falling in western society. As it is in many regions of the world. Empowering women will always have the effect of lowering a population’s replacement rate. A woman who doesn’t have children throughout her life time should be applauded for not contributing to the mess we’re in.
@The Jin – ” you are more likely to have more partners if you are mid range IQ, prone to fighting, anti social behaviour etc.” Citation please, this is the core of our disagreement. Also, are you more likely to reproduce is the actual question but let’s say that more partners equals more reproduction chances.
” . . . birth rates are falling in western society. As it is in many regions of the world.” As I discussed earlier in the thread (birth rates are actually falling nearly everywhere, but in some areas even after the fall it remains above replacement rate, with a relatively young populace) and started predicting circa 1970. My last comment addressed one specific factor, not the many that go into determining birth rate. One man can, and is known to do, father many children with many women. A comparatively small number of men breeding is not a limit on population… Read more »
@Jin – “Intelligence usually corresponds with the ability to doubt and self doubt (congruence checked) and the chances for intelligence to demonstrate alpha do not come early enough in the life cycle for breeding – check the SMV graph. ” You are just bootstrapping and Bertram Russell’s assertions aren’t dispositive, merely interesting (at times).
@The Jin – Intelligence is largely a result of genetics, so it doesn’t matter how it presents itself or at what age, it’s always heritable.
https://student.societyforscience.org/article/iq-genes
@scrib I can provide a few links courtesy of Slate Star Codex’s Radicalizing the Romanceless article. Not saying I necessarily agree with Jin, but on that point he is correct. Quoting from the SSC article: I will have to use virginity statistics as a proxy for the harder-to-measure romancelessness statistics, but these are bad enough. In high school each extra IQ point above average increases chances of male virginity by about 3%. 35% of MIT grad students have never had sex, compared to only 20% of average nineteen year old men. Compared with virgins, men with more sexual experience are… Read more »
Hypergamy is a reality. It’s not meant to be an unopposed force. A man who has little to no chance to pass on his genes has little or no reason to support society. Have that group be big enough and smart enough (certainly possible since “sexy Alpha” doesn’t cross over that well with other positive male attributes) and the “betas” will revolt and destroy society. That is probably the ultimate counter to hypergamy. I don’t think anyone’s ever brought up The Time Machine by Wells. The Eloi were the beautiful people, and the Morlocks the betas. Didn’t end up too… Read more »
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php Depending on the specific age and gender, an adolescent with an IQ of 100 was 1.5 to 5 times more likely to have had intercourse than a teen with a score of 120 or 130. Each additional point of IQ increased the odds of virginity by 2.7% for males and 1.7% for females. But higher IQ had a similar relationship across the entire range of romantic/sexual interactions, decreasing the odds that teens had ever kissed or even held hands with a member of the opposite sex at each age. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19350760 Empirical research has revealed a positive relationship between number… Read more »
@Striver A man who has little to no chance to pass on his genes has little or no reason to support society As a result of the defective mate selection strategy of western women (see my comment above), betas currently have a strong probability of passing on their genes. They will like hate many of the other outcomes of the strategy, which include sexless marriages, divorce, child support payments, restricted from seeing their kids much, and parental alienation, These outcomes, which prevent them from being fathers in good marriages, may make them question their support for a society that has… Read more »
“Hypergamy is a reality. It’s not meant to be an unopposed force.”
Quite the contrary, it relies on being opposed for it to function properly in the long term, reproductive environment.
I’ve used the analogy of a guyed mast before. If one guy fails, the mast falls due to the now unopposed forces imposed by the other guys.
ollieoxenfree
The problem I have with the current debate, is it’s too one sided.
Hey, I have the same problem. Everywhere in the world except for a few places, men are constantly critiqued while women are given a free pass.
There’s only a few places where that one-sided debate isn’t dominating, and this is one of them.
Thanks for trolling. Now run along, men are speaking.
@Jin – Careful. The studies of high school and college students only correlates delay of sexual activity with IQ, not lifetime partners nor reproduction. So it does not prove your point, or come even close.
The second links and suggests a causal relationship between criminality and number of sexual partners. not reproduction. It also says nothing about intelligence.
Outside of the Manosphere, such constructions what you have offered are referred to as “bro science”. Nice story though…
>@Jin – Careful. The studies of high school and college students only correlates delay of sexual activity with IQ, not lifetime partners nor reproduction. So it does not prove your point, or come even close. Whereas the studies you’ve shown to back up your point show …oh, wait.. >The second links and suggests a causal relationship between criminality and number of sexual partners. not reproduction. It also says nothing about intelligence. Yes, because the more sex you have and the more people you sleep with, the lower your chances of getting someone pregnant……. >It also says nothing about intelligence. True.… Read more »
Yes, because the more sex you have and the more people you sleep with, the lower your chances of getting someone pregnant…….
Here’s something to support your theory:
Fifteen percent of all American women who are infertile can attribute it to tubal damage caused by pelvic inflammatory disease (PID). PID is an infection of the uterus, fallopian tubes and other reproductive organs. It often results from untreated STD/STIs, such as chlamydia and gonorrhea. PID can lead to serious consequences that affect a woman’s ability to have a baby …
http://www.ashasexualhealth.org/sexual-health/reproductive-health/
I’d be interested to see data on how well parter’s iq correlate in sexual relationships. People do seem to have more sex around an average iq (I know the data ain’t perfect Scribb but I’ve seen a few studies in that direction and none in the other). If people tend to have sex with people of similar intelligence – maybe because it’s just hard to connect with someone much smarter or stupider than you – then this could just be a product of a person with unusually low or high intelligence having a much smaller ‘pool’ of people around who… Read more »
Forge @Jin
Before you can figure out whether or not our society is being dysgenic, you need to define what would be eugenic. And I think you’ll find that your answers will vary widely with personal preferences as well as specifics of the target environment.
That’s an interesting observation. I guess it partly depends on what one means by “civilization”. Personally, I suspect that a married middle class is the cornerstone of industrial civilization. Destroy that and you do a lot of damage in a lot of ways…
@AR, it’s the fundamental problem with eugenics – a century ago it was the thinking man’s no-brainer position. Then it turned out you could just decide that a person was dysgenic if they were, say, Jewish or something.
Like this: “Personally, I suspect that a married middle class is the cornerstone of industrial civilization.
Very likely.
“Destroy that and you do a lot of damage in a lot of ways…”
Sure. But do you like industrial civilization?
That’s the implicit assumption.
Dang I wish there were numbers you could click on to filter through the comments to the latest one. Or a link that brings you to the latest comment page. So many clicks on newer comments link and scrolls everytime the window gets closed for some reason..
A quick google search will pretty much bear out Jin’s assertions. (Lots of studies and reasonings). High IQ is associated with fewer sexual partners and fewer children. And it is pretty much a given that genetics aren’t getting better. If you want proof see this. Lol.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unoMMru4-c0 This is an overview of Connection Between Higher Intelegence and Sex: http://www.geniusawakening.com/genius-self/high-iq-and-sex/ Not only do intelligent people have a delayed onset of sexual behavior, another recent study found that they also have a much lower number of premarital sex partners throughout adulthood than those of average intelligence. Some may contend that this is… Read more »
…use the less than symbol before the code and the greater than symbol after the code instead of regular HTML brackets. When I tried to use the actual symbol in that last sentence it ate some of the words.
@ECM
Good catch on the introversion personality types.
@AR, it’s the fundamental problem with eugenics What is the fundamental problem with eugenics, please? – a century ago it was the thinking man’s no-brainer position. Then it turned out you could just decide that a person was dysgenic if they were, say, Jewish or something. So? Are you asserting a definition problem, pointing out that most people are ignorant, or is this another Argumentum Ad Hitlerum? I’m not arguing for or against eugenics, I’m simply pointing out that the current pattern of human reproduction appears to hurt the married middle class, and asserting a belief of mine that this… Read more »
Forge
Sure. But do you like industrial civilization?
Yes.
if you have a high IQ, you know that you don’t need to have a lot of sex with a lot of different people. You’re able to use intelligence to attract a mate and reproduce. Thus, highly intelligent people do not feel the need to engage in sexual activity with a wide pool of partners in order to try to successfully reproduce
so it follows that the people arguing here that highly intelligent people are not successfully reproducing do not have a high IQ
@AR Sorry, looks like I wasn’t very clear. I wasn’t trying to contest any position of yours or make a point about it. I was expanding the dialogue to include a broader perspective on the issue of eugenics and dysgenics. The central issue with eugenics is that determining what are ‘good’ and ‘bad’ genetic traits is very subjective. What you think is good or bad depends on your value system. You seem to think industrial civilization is a good thing. I think I agree. Certainly there are far worse things 🙂 But there are people who might strongly disagree. I… Read more »
But there are people who might strongly disagree. I knew a girl who said she’d prefer grass huts to modern civ. Odds are she’s ignorant of what the implications of that claim are. I’m told that the hippies of the 1970’s, like Thoreau, were unable to even survive at the dirt hut level without outside help, and they didn’t have all kinds of cute, shiny objects like smartphones to distract them, just weed and sex. She’s also possibly incapable of learning, which means in an actual survival situation she’d be a liability. I’ve met a few people who actually could… Read more »
“so it follows that the people arguing here that highly intelligent people are not successfully reproducing do not have a high IQ” Lol. I see what you did there. But anyway, high IQ people just have intellect over emotions. Cognition and fore-brain over hind-brain. It’s not really a contested idea. On the whole, very high IQ guys may or may not reproduce. Elon Musk sure had a whole lot of kids with his first wife. And failed miserable with his second wife. I had a lot of parents of my childhood neighbors who had a hell of a lot of… Read more »
“Right now the Chinese are intensively studying genotypes specifically to find keys to increased intelligence.” Right now the West in intent on being non-judgmental, which I think would be non-eugenic. (I’m indifferent to eugenics because I’m bottoms up in my approach and I already have my two good kids who are getting older. Sure was challenging raising them, though, but my genetic output requested by mother nature is done. And higher IQ, too.) Back story: this was a link under what Sun Wukong linked to by Slate Star Codex. (The Jin really opened a pandora’s box). The guy that wrote… Read more »
“Odds are she’s ignorant of what the implications of that claim are.” I’m quite certain of that. Thing is, she’d never know as much until it was too late. “Right now the Chinese are intensively studying genotypes specifically to find keys to increased intelligence. It will be interesting to see what comes of that….” ‘May you live in interesting times.’ When you amplify cognitive ability, what you don’t get is a person that behaves like a higher-functioning human. There’s a reason humans’ intellect exploded up to….right about the level of intelligence we now posess, about forty eons ago, and has… Read more »