Whenever I consult teenage guys or young adult men I’m always reminded about how my ‘Game’ has changed over the course of my lifetime. The 17 year old Rollo Tomassi would be be appalled at the mindset of the 46 year old Rollo Tomassi.
Granted, much of that shock would probably be attributed to the lack of experience my younger self had with regards to female nature, human nature and, if I’m honest, I suffered from the same naiveté most young men do when it comes to judging people’s character. In fact, at the time, my belief was that I shouldn’t ever judge anyone’s character, nor did I, nor should anyone really, have the right to.
Part of that assumption was from an undeveloped religious learning, but more so it was due to a youthful idealism I held – I’d been conditioned to believe not only that you “can’t judge a book by its cover”, but also that you shouldn’t do so, and ought to be ashamed for considering it.
I’m flattered that people might think I’m some phenomenal interpreter of psychology, the nature of women, intergender relations and a model upon which men should aspire to in order to get laid and still have a great (now 18 year) marriage. It has not always been so.
If I have any credibility now it’s not due to my getting everything miraculously right, but because I had everything so horribly wrong more often than not.
One of the most valuable lessons I learned in my time studying psychology and personality studies is that personality is alway in flux. Who you are today is not who you will be in another few years. Hopefully that’s for the better after learning something and applying it towards your own personal progress, but it could equally be a traumatic experience that changes you for the worse.
For better or worse, personality shifts – sometimes slowly, sometimes suddenly – and while you may retain aspects of your personality, mannerisms, talents, past experiences and beliefs into the next iteration of yourself in a new phase of your life, rest assured, you will not be who you are now at any other time.
I’m sorry if this sounds all fortune cookie to you at the moment, but it’s a necessary preface to understanding how Game changes for men as their life situations and circumstances change during different phases of their lives and the shifts in their own personalities and learned perceptions change as they age.
It’s an easy step for me to assume that, were I to find myself single tomorrow, I wouldn’t approach Game in any degree as I would were I the 26 year old version of myself. Indeed, the primary reason I’ve involved myself in expanding the Preventative Medicine series into the next volume of The Rational Male is to help men at different phases of their own development understand what to expect from women (and themselves) during these periods of their life.
About two weeks ago I broached the subject of how Game should be a universal knowledge-tool for the everyman. My intent in Game and Circumstance was to shine some light on how Game and red pill awareness is (should be) a benefit for men regardless of their circumstance.
As I expected, the comparisons of Looks vs. Game was the inevitable discussion in the comment thread, because the presumption is that a man’s most evident condition is how he looks and how women are or are not aroused / attracted to their perception of him. I’ve written more about this Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks arousal dynamic than I care to review at the moment, but suffice it to say I do place a high importance on a man’s physical bearing.
However, my intent wasn’t to engage in a debate over the importance of looks, but rather that Game and red pill awareness is applicable for men of every social or personal condition – even the short, pudgy guy who empties the trash in your office. He may not have the potential to enjoy sex with a swimsuit model, but the tenets of Game can help him improve his life within his own circumstances.
Game Beyond PUA
When I was writing The Rational Male I specifically wrote and published a post on the Evolution of Game to be included in the book in order to demystify an impression of Game which I still think people (particularly the blue pill uninitiated), sometimes intentionally, misconstrue as some magical panacea to their ‘girl problems’. My definition was thus:
For the unfamiliar, just the word ‘Game’ seems to infer deception or manipulation. You’re not being real if you’re playing a Game, so from the outset we’re starting off from a disadvantage of perception. This is further compounded when attempting to explain Game concepts to a guy who’s only ever been conditioned to ‘just be himself‘ with women and how women allegedly hate guys “who play games” with them. As bad as that sounds, it’s really in the explanation of how Game is more than the common perception that prompts the discussion for the new reader to have it explained for them.
At its root level Game is a series of behavioral modifications to life skills based on psychological and sociological principles to facilitate intersexual relations between genders.
Game has more applications than just in the realm of intergender relations, but this is my best estimation of Game for the uninitiated. Game is the practical application of a new knowledge and increasingly broader awareness of intergender relations – often referred to, for convenience, as Red Pill awareness, by myself and others in the broader manosphere. Game begins with red pill awareness and using that awareness to develop Game.
The body of infield evidence collected by 15 years of PUA is far more reliable and valid than anything social science has produced on seduction – Nick Krauser
As I’ve written in the past, everyone has Game. Every guy you know right now has some idea, methodology or system of belief by which he thinks he can best put himself into a position of relating to, and becoming intimate with, a woman.
From even the most rank Beta plug-in to the 14 year old high school freshmen boy has some notion about what he, and by extension all men, should do in order to become intimate with a girl. I described this a bit in Beta Game where I outlined the Beta plan of identifying with women’s “needs” and adopting a feminine-primary mental point of origin in order to become more like the target(s) of his affection.
What ‘formalzed’ Game comes down to is what genuinely works for the betterment of his life. Men don’t seek out the manosphere because their Beta Game works so well for them.
I’ll admit, this was my own Game when I was in my late teens. Like most properly conditioned young men,I subscribed to the idea that men needed to be more empathetic and sensitive to women’s experience (rather than putting priority on his own) as the most deductive means to getting a girlfriend who’d appreciate my uniqueness for being so ‘in tune’ with the feminine.
If you’d have asked me at the time (the mid 80’s), my belief was that the best way to ‘get the girl’ was to take women at their word, use their “advice“, be their friend, make her comfortable, sacrifice your own (chauvinist) self-importance and support her importance, and mold your incorrect male self into a more perfect feminine ideal. The idea was that the lesser you made yourself, the more you made of her, and the more likely she was to reciprocate intimacy in appreciation.
That was my Game up until I learned through trial and painful error that women loath a man who needs to be instructed on how to actually be more attractive to women. I didn’t understand that by my subscribing to this spoon-fed feminization Game and overtly advocating for it I was only advertising to the very girls I wanted that I Just Didn’t Get It.
This was simply the first stage of Game changing for me, and I’m fairly certain that you’d read a similar story from most of the manosphere’s heaviest hitters. I’m peripherally familiar with the early histories of the likes of Roosh, Nick Krauser and even Mystery, so I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that the Game they practice today would be foreign to their younger selves.
When I moved into my rock star 20’s I began practicing a new form of Game, one based on social proof and demonstrating higher value (DHV).
Of course I had no idea I was practicing any Game at the time. I had reinvented myself and my identity shifted into that of a guy who was Spinning Plates, being more self-concerned and enjoying the benefits of that social proof and DHV; but if you’d asked me what I’d done to effect that change, or how my Game was affected by it, I wouldn’t have been able to give you an answer then – Game was just instinctual for me.
Now in my married years, as a husband and the father of a teenage daughter, and my professional life in the liquor and casino world where I interact with beautiful women on a weekly basis, I still employ Game when I don’t realize I am.
However, that Game is the compounded, internalized result of what I’ve learned and used since the days I believed in the “be nice for girls to like you” teenage Game. Amused Mastery, Command Presence and a few other principles became much easier to employ as a mature man, but also a new grasp of how women’s lives have a more or less predictable pattern to them.
Thanks to my time studying behavioral psychology I understand the methods women use to prompt and provoke men (shit tests). Thanks to my red pill awareness and simple understand of how women’s biology influences hypergamy I now understand why they do so – and more importantly, how to avoid the traps of falling into the worst aspects of women’s dualistic sexual strategy.
All of this influences my ‘Game’ in the now. As before, I don’t play a constant, conscious game of mental chess in my dealings with women (and even the men in my social and professional life), I just live it.
So, in closing, it’s important to consider that the concept of Game you might be struggling with now was probably some other man’s experience before you encountered it. What is Game for me at 46, will most likely not have the exact same utility for me at 56, but if I stay sharp and learn along the way I’ll develop a new Game for that phase of life.
In Roosh’s most recent book, he has a quote in it that struck me (I paraphrase): There are a lot of men who tell me they wish they knew back then what they know now, but in all likelihood that knowledge wouldn’t serve them as well as they believe it would. They’d simply make new mistakes (and hopefully learn from them) based on the things they never had any experience of in the now.
There is always additional knowledge a man can know even when he possess the highest level of knowledge.
August 1st, 2014 at 8:14 pm
July 30th, 2014 at 8:27 pm
Become an engineer or similar. There are a LOT fewer women in that kind of workplace.”
I gave my 17yo son the same advice. It’s an honest creative way to make a living with a good return on the educational investment and the job market is saturated with womyn with soft degrees.
Even in electrical engineering, most women seem to be *soft*ware engineers, not *hard*ware engineers. Vive la difference.
Um i dont think how could any1 disputes the fact that for short time relationships or just mating – fucking, women will prefer looks and age above everything else there has been so much research about it for so long , thus in the ovulation days they look for more masculine men. After a certain age and for ltr they have other priorities. in my opinion game works if there is already attraction otherwise is just bs. like rollo said atraction cant be negotiated. @if12 what exactly normal lvls means lol , do you even have any clue of how… Read more »
@Sirtyrion/Siirtyrion writes “Until gamers can show this, they are leaning on naive premises (and, dare I say, unmitigated bullshit)” Sounds like this comment: where’s the data? I’m a scientist and I have a keen interest in western cultural conceptions of relationships; not because that’s what I study, since it’s not, but because I’m in an ‘LTR’ so I have a vested interest. Part of being a good scientist is a little thing called ‘source criticism’ and without any kind of bibliography that points to large studies or surveys, or any idea about the author’s credentials, it’s hard to evaluate the… Read more »
“I hold science, much like all good men in the manosphere, as truth.” I hold no such thing. The failings of science are manifold. We can go from phlogiston and on to the Miliken oil drop experiment And need I say CO2 as a climate driver? That will go completely belly up with the coming little ice age. The de Vries cycle will be very hard on the models. So no – science is not truth. Engineering is closer to truth. But the Tacoma Narrows bridge shows that even in engineering there can be fundamental errors besides errors of application.… Read more »
A good segue into an experience that paved the way for me to consider RP. 15 years ago my health was going downhill as it does for many folks in their early forties. So I decided to engineer my own self. I did much studying of anti-aging medicine and health optimization (same thing really) with emphasis on things I can put in my mouth. I discovered that most of the conventional wisdom on diet and health was false. The scientific evidence simply did not support the idea that eating natural animal fat is bad for health and that eating whole… Read more »
@orion “However, now that we have established that such signals can be faked, who says we cannot fake human signals? At least for short term mating success, it seems to me that identifying those signals and emulating them is a very real possibility.” Yes, some physical signals can be faked. Facial (through surgery), height (leg lengthening surgery or through heel lifts) can both be faked. I saw this on a documentary of men in Korea or Japan (I forgot which) and guys were shown to take drastic measures in improving their physicality. The men did experience success in the end,… Read more »
@Siityrion re: “I know I paint a very dark picture”
You crayon with sepia and shadow, raw umber and black, and expect us to weep. Your simplifications mean less than nothing, especially given the avalanche of words you believe will snow us.
re: contradiction. You contradicted yourself in what I quoted. You’ve lost, and are lost. I understand that that is what you are trying to communicate: that you have no idea what you are talking about and you need help in thinking. It’s coming through quite clearly.
“I put as much wording as I can into my paragraphs to give you guys a complete picture of what I’m trying to say. Everything in that paragraph makes sense.” My point is it is not clear. More wording does not necessarily make something more clear. It is HOW something is worded which gives it clarity, no? This: ‘Game’ is entirely dependent on other ‘gina-tingling’ variables that have nothing to do with game – it is *not* a proxy for attraction. So, all ‘game’ can conceivably do, is ‘maximize’ a man’s opportunities on a case by case basis (no Gina… Read more »
Rollo, love your writings, friend. And, I am your friend, believe it or not. You’re providing incredible value for the average male. Kudos. But the day is going to arrive when you are going to be faced with a decision to acknowledge those quasi-dissenters on your site who speak to larger principles than what you espouse. ONE example is politics. Believe me, I understand why you don’t want to go there, and hold nothing against you for that. However, understand that your readership is acutely aware of how politics, government, culture, interact with your teachings. WE KNOW. WE AREN’T STUPID.… Read more »
I haven’t posted any new essays on my blog since early June. And I haven’t had the motivation to do so. You see, shortly after Roosh took his trip to DC, I took mine. OK, mine was more of a family outing. We went to the Wash Mall, Six Flags, the zoo. And I saw much of what he saw but more on the streets than actually experiencing it in the clubs. There was a fucking dearth of women. We saw two, fucking two, attractive DC adult locals in three days and we were in some very public places. The… Read more »
Unfortunately it seems that there has been a good deal of talking past each other in this thread. That happens — it’s the internet, for one thing, and for another, the issue of the “definition” of “Game” has come up again and again and again — perpetually really because it’s a loose idea which has various applications. I don’t think that many people here actually support the idea that a guy who is a male 5 learns PUA game and consistently beds HB8-10 women. In fact, I think most who are pro-Game here believe that it helps at the margins… Read more »
Mark Minter August 2nd, 2014 at 6:25 am When was the last time you saw a hot girl outside of a club? Every time I see #1 daughter. In the 9 to 10 range. And very brainy. ChemE graduate. She and I discuss thermo. She gt a lot of As in her school work. Unfortunately she doesn’t care much for men. She has had boyfriends. But she has no intention to do another LTR. Of course being at least 2 SDs above the average population (probably more like 3 SDs) her choices are limited. She needs to find some one… Read more »
And BTW Mark. Where I live there are not too many fatties. And the 20 somethings are 7s, 8s, 9s. I think you have to get out of the big cities.
I have never seen Game as something that would effect massive social change — perhaps changes on the margins, but not real social change
These things take time. You will start to see changes in 2020.
Not @Minter, just about Minter, re: “factored out”.
Unsurprisingly, the Groucho club membership “paradox” is ALWAYS self-inflicted. Always. “Game only works on women that I don’t want!”
@sirttiyon (sp? and i thought Tilikum was tedious lol) when I read your posts and those like them, I ALWAYS have to remind myself of audience. once a guest in this space exceeds say 24 years old (17-24 being the logically prime search for a normally organized males quest for knowledge in this area), there do seem to be 2 main types of which i suggest that you are number 2 fyi: 1. strong and natural alpha/sigmas who, for whatever reason choose to teach down 2. very spergy males who suffer from frankly the painful wages of associative mating (way… Read more »
What we have here is a confusion of terminology. What you call “game”, I call “style”. I had a life-changing heartbreak (somewhat like ‘Casablanca’, which I saw a month before) in my senior college year. Then I read a Saul-to-Paul guide, ‘Doing It With Style’ by the eccentric, genderqueer Brit-wit Quentin Crisp. I cannot recommend it highly enough. His main point is that: “Style is the art of being yourself, deliberately.” So that summer I tightened up my professional tactical repertoire (I’m a singer-bassist), made the first entrepreneurial foray into my ongoing life-art project (Vallin SFAS/Song For All Seasons), and… Read more »
@humility writes or do you think you’re omniscient? You are, after all, a public site, and so the public’s voice is ostensibly to be valued Rollo is clearly states that he doesn’t know it all in post after post. He’s just explained in this thread that he doesn’t moderate comments in order to allow cause more discussion so that all can learn (including Rollo). The PUBLIC can fund their own blog! I’ve never spent one cent for this blog. Rollo has a real job outside if this, and this pays for the blog out of his own earnings. His time… Read more »
@ HUMILITY The public voice has NO value to an individual man other than to serve as a cautionary warning, a “what NOT to do”. That’s the estrogen poisoned ultra feminized Third Gender groupthink leaching out of your pores. You have been taught by savages that working together for the benefit of a tribe or group structure necessarily requires some soft and cuddly idealization of similar values. This is your personal and social downfall, and the PERFECT example of why people like you can’t survive and should never be taken seriously. Thank you for the very important object lesson for… Read more »
Siirtyrion / Sirtyrion writes . Some will tell you, but most won’t tell you just how important it is because to do so would be killing their monetary gravy train and they’ll have to actually work for a living. What money? What are you talking about? Rollo is a talented artist, musician, brand genius and writer. He earns money from other work… NOT from this blog. When others have asked to donate to his blog, he’s responded by suggesting donating to an animal charity. Any man can change his appearance. I chose to lose 86 lbs using true science that… Read more »
Siirtyrion/Sirtyrion They want to sell you more seats, books, and dvds to fund their lifestyle while they bullshit you with a straight face.
Rollo, I’ll be the first to buy
Is it really the “Monetary Gravy Train Game” tour (MGTG) where you’ll be bullshitted with a straight face?
@ jf12 “re: contradiction. You contradicted yourself in what I quoted. You’ve lost, and are lost. I understand that that is what you are trying to communicate: that you have no idea what you are talking about and you need help in thinking. It’s coming through quite clearly.” Let me make my past comment more clear to you: “First, nobody said otherwise. It should be valued as important for ASSESSING A LONG TERM partner. BUT we are talking about the capture of female attention on COURTSHIP INTERACTIONS, and it’s the PHYSICAL APPEARANCE that is CULLING male frequencies. True that once… Read more »
Fair enough. We can hammer out our differences another time.
Your seeming lack of ability to track with abstracts or nuance is fascinating.
There is a new movie out today called “Lucy”. Go take a look and let me know what you think. Your writing shows a specific level of intelligence but your ideas seem…..adolescent? in the ability to foment abstract thought.
I’d like to see if we can change that in you, so as to help you out. Every man we turn is one we don’t have to fight.
@ Rollo – Again, just pure genius. I believe the term “game” simply doesn’t work to describe what is worth noting and true about this topic. I break it down into three distinct categories of stuff for me: 1. Understanding – You present an accessible perspective on intersexual dynamics that is based on your understanding of the science and your personal experience/POV. I don’t go to any PUA sites, I investigated them during my learning curve and found most of them laughable and pathetic in many ways, but some also contained some interesting perspectives. I took what I wanted, and… Read more »
Stay fluid with the three pillars of masculinity, otherwise the identity prison you are so fawningly describing tonight remains just that.
maintain your ability to change and enact new behaviors…..rule the system.
@ Glenn – was nodding along when reading your post – well said.
I’m very loyal to Rollo and Chateau Heartiste and don’t get caught up in the whole ‘does Game work’ debate.
Women, white knights and AFC’s despise the existence of Game and will continually try to discredit it on this blog because it administers Men the ‘preventative medicine’ required to understand, accept and potentially circumnavigate Hypergamy.
Having internalised red pill theory, and put it into practice, I know it works on many levels and that’s all that matters to me.
It is almost interesting that all of the looks-pushers are so afraid of behavioral solutions. To me,that indicates either that they are women who are afraid of men becoming more brutal, or they are effeminate-acting males who wish to hide their proclivities from their own consciences.
Hypergamy cares about penis size:
Some people appear to be trying to undermine the essence of Game, which is the understanding of true female nature, by pointing out the rather obvious fact that women will be drawn most immediately to the most physically attractive men. And they seem to be intentionally overlooking everything else. For example, that there are multiple feedback loops operating within female psychology, as well as multiple input paths. Physical attractiveness induces an immediate positive response that is not easy to diminish, but it can be derailed through anti-alpha behavior, which can follow from ignorance of Game and susceptibility to social programming.… Read more »
jf12 August 3rd, 2014 at 11:29 pm Since the subject came up the last few days I did some personal research. I asked the first mate. Hunky body? Yep. Tall. At least relatively back in the day? Yep. (I’m shrimpy compared to my 6′ 4″ boys. I’m still taller than my 6′ daughter). A face with defects (large Jewish nose)? Yep. So what made the difference? Well she says the large nose made my voice deeper. Sure. In any case I figure game gave me 2 to 2.5 points in SMV. So instead of 4.5s to 7s I was doing… Read more »
eon, Siirtyrion is a verbose buffoon who seems unable to come even close to the level of clarity demanded by our risk mitigation attorneys. Nailed it. Reality always gives extra points to those who can express the most complex stuff in the simplest way. The first mate gives me lots of extra points for doing so. She says I’m a good teacher. Even better when a student goes wrong I can put myself in his mind and figure his error. Making it easy to correct. And what do i like about being here? A pretty good number of STEM people.… Read more »
August 4th, 2014 at 1:11 am
From what I have read bigger around is better than long. It rubs the G spot better. But you can always warm them up with fingers and tongue. The blood flow tightens everything up.
tl;dr: not about Minter, look in the mirror. All of you guys who have dogged Minter, whether “he’s” fake or not, should really be looking into the mirror. Some random commenter shows up out of nowhere on manosphere blogs and forums in a bluster of thunder and you fall for his schtick, whether it’s real or fake. Then he changes his tune, premeditatedly or not, and all of a sudden you’re pissed off at him. Really? Why? That is a question that you need to look into the mirror and ask yourself. YOU are the one who chose to invest… Read more »
re Minter August 4th, 2014 at 4:09 am I had the good fortune to get my Red Pill from my first GF at age 17.9. That would have been about 50 years ago. Since it was expressed by a woman and I was very new with women it did not generate much emotion for me. She was my first. And like all newbies with no prior “luck” I just wanted to please her. So it didn’t generate much of that “I have been betrayed” reaction. Since I have started reading here I have just recently come across all the angst… Read more »
@Siirtyrion/Sirtyrion Not sure why you’re choosing this comment section as the place to complain about the “PUA” types and to vent your frustrations at the men that have chosen to have ‘looks’ that naturally attract women. If you wanna fight this “PUA” ‘monetary gravy train’ you might have more success in taking your ‘fight’ to my buddy Mike from Danger and Playhe’s taken your ‘fight’ against ‘PUAs’ to a ‘legal’ level I was skeptical until I chose to meet him in person a while back. He’s not making a living from his blog either. He’s authentically the man he says… Read more »
Yeah, what a fantastic marker along one’s path. Amen.
@eon re: “But now I think that he might be trying (incompetently) to use the old huckster trick of being just vague enough for his audience to fill in the blanks.”
I’m almost certain he/she is a sjw concern troll.
@eon re: “Siirtyrion is a verbose buffoon who seems unable to come even close to the level of clarity demanded by our risk mitigation attorneys.”
Ya know, I hadn’t thought of that possibility, but you may be right. Siirtyrion may be a sjw attorney who believes words-about-science count as science.
@ re Minter – What are you talking about? Minter is full of shit and I want people like him to be uncomfortable here. I don’t want to be part of a community where phony scumbags like him are welcomed. You don’t like that? Fair enough, but don’t play dime-store shrink with me or others here. You come off like a complete dick doing so, and also have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like a guy who spends way too much time online in the manosphere yourself. Unplug and go back to the real world for… Read more »
@ Glenn, August 4th, 2014 at 11:17 am . Why are you being so pushy and greedy? Siirtyrion is the designated doofus on this thread. You can be The Grand Poobah of Buttcrack on the next article. . My biggest problem with you is that you are using a type of push-pull to mask your agenda and get people to start sort of agreeing with you. You begin with: “Who are the people in the manosphere? The vast majority of them seem to fall into one of three categories – and they are all guys who failed at the mating… Read more »
I’ve been reading the comments here and it all makes sense now. I’m a short, un-attractive guy, who has been running game for 4 years now. I did manage to get some girls here or there but I never could sustain top quality. I always chalked it up to my game but I now know that a woman has to find you “hawt” or at least past a threshold of “cute” before she’s willing to stay with you. Guys, that’s just the way it is. Women, young women specifically, love to show off their boyfriends to others. No amount of… Read more »
August 4th, 2014 at 11:17 am
“Who are the people in the manosphere? The vast majority of them seem to fall into one of three categories… ”
Glenn, thank goodness for NAMALT. I liked a lot of your comments. I’m glad you are in the miniscule minority.
Glenn is 100% right. Rollo has fantastic content, but the focus needs to be on living a productive life free of bitterness. This is my last post here. It has been a fantastic experience and am grateful to Rollo beyond all measure. I came here while dealing with my divorce and the site has been hugely helpful in assessing my prior mistakes and making the right changes. Best of luck to everyone on their journeys. One is only truly healthy when he has no need for the manosphere.
@Glen is the second coming of Mark Minter; a version with the inner need to project its pain onto others. There will be more. And they will span the spectrum.
Here’s a post that Rollo wrote from his past sosuave days: “Not at all, and this is a very common, binary, all-or-nothing approach to what I point out when I spell out how our biology works… What is true is that impressive physical prowess and appearance are genetic determinantes that are associated with good gene-stock on a subconscious level. There are numerous cross-culture/cross-racial studies that bear this out which have found consistent attracting commonalities in body & facial symetry as well as gender specific attributes each sex found not just attractive, but physically arousing (heart rate increase, pupil dialation, ect.)… Read more »
@Glen. Not picking on Glen, but merely using his case as an illustrative example. As I said, there have been many Glens in the past, and there will be many more Glens in the future, spanning the spectrum. Why do you guys think that Glen attacks Minter so viciously? Who the flying fuck cares about Minter’s arguments or positions? Glen does, that’s who. The reason why his attacks on Minter are so beyond vicious is because he is on an ENERGETIC AND SPIRITUAL RESONANCE with Minter. In other words, his suffering and healing process is very closely aligned with that… Read more »
I wrote this about 5 hours ago and let it sit because I wasn’t sure I had it right. Glenn August 4th, 2014 at 11:17 am What I got from re:Minter was that there is a lot of acting out from pain and that some compassion is in order when the pain recedes and something else comes out. Not to mention compassion for those in pain. From my interactions with Kate on line – I like her. But it could be just that she reminds me of my first GF. Attitude wise. As to Minter himself. I was not invested… Read more »
Mark, it’s OK. Humans have an instinct for pair bonding.
She seems like a good catch. You don’t need to justify yourself.
Physicality Is King August 4th, 2014 at 3:57 pm I’d like your estimate of how much SMV game added to you. My estimate is 2 to 2.5 points. I think that the point is not emphasized enough. Game will not make a 3 a 9. It can make a 6 an 8. The real value of game IMO is in a LTR. It will help keep her interested. That avoids all the nastiness and expense of a break up. And I think the point made above about “value” is quite correct. The kids are grown and out of school. I… Read more »
Minters and Glens pop up roughly once a quarter. They are always full of piss and vinegar. No problem with that—at least their balls are intact, they have a modicum of testosterone. I watch these guys go through the growth-throws of taking the red pill, and find it fascinating. Where I draw the line is when these entities begin to lash out at everyone else in the manosphere with zero regard for the fact that those being lashed out against would probably be friendly with the lasher, otherwise. It’s part of the process. That doesn’t mean that the community must… Read more »
“All his intense powers of rationality, all of his implicitly provable facts, all of his monuments and achievements of deduction mean nothing without the only irrational thing a woman can uniquely supply – unknowable, fantastical love.”
Because microcephaly doesn’t care.
Scripted people in blog comments serve a wide-range of key phrases designed to bring negative attention to the blog from outside. This also distract its followers from the the key points. The actors lives are scripted to be believable enough. There are pictures of people associated with the comments, so they must be real. Responding to them builds their brands. Names designed with alliteration tend to do quite well. Like with any popular show, people naturally develop emotional ties to the lives of the scripted characters. They naturally believe in the people they play in ‘real’ life. The production cost… Read more »
@LiveFearless: Whatever lies you need to tell yourself so you and Rollo don’t have to feel guilty. Mark and I are real, but we have no motivation to prove that to you. I’ve seen that you messaged Mark on Facebook. Mark posted to your blog. Mark has emailed Rollo. We both have contact with other people we’ve met in the Manosphere by private means. Many people can verify we are real. NONE of these people will reveal identifying information about us. These are our true friends. We’ve posted pictures in the past, and, on this so-called forum of ideas, I’ve… Read more »
“We think it is an honest to God SHAME that so few of you can believe love can truly exist. ”
Of course love truly exists.
Love is the way we experience and rationalize our normal and necessary mating instincts. I have experienced it many times. I enjoy it.
But humans are wired to stay pair bonded for only a few years. Fitness for one’s offspring is maximized by mating with more than one individual.
W. Somerset Maugham:
“Love is only a dirty trick played on us to achieve continuation of the species.”
I see a bigger picture in the MM affair.
Reading Mark Manson’s post on “modern post-masculinity”, across time and culture, the defining feature of establishing masculinity is: “Remember, the key universality is defining an emotional independence for ourselves followed by validation from other men.”
Mark was establishing emotional independence with much chest thumping and getting strong validation from other men.
Then it suddenly collapsed. Men were forced to confront the modern lack of ways to prove masculinity. Not surprisingly, this was upsetting to many men.
re: love. Probably every man on here believes that men feel real love. Probably every man on here believes that women’s love is as fleeting as every other emotion that women have, like sneezes in brevity.
More fundamentally, establishing emotional independence while requiring validation for it is contradictory.
Regarding the above, Manson would probably say that it is about establishing emotional independence from women while getting validation from men. IOW, associating with men more than women and identifying with other men. Like J. Donovan’s thing about men joining gangs. That is pretty straight forward. Unfortunately, men only spaces have been outlawed. Even being a professional athlete is subject to fem reporters in the locker room. The military has been feminized. It follows then that participation in the manosphere is all that is left for men to establish masculinity. “Birdwatching in the Manosphere” is a humorous cautionary note. http://www.mgtow.com/birdwatching-in-the-manosphere/… Read more »
Rhetoric doesn’t ultimately make men feel better. Women do. While I agree that rhetoric does not make anyone feel better, at least not on a fundamental level, I do think that this is possible, for a man, without having a woman in his life. Now, not if the reason for that is hatred of women, bitterness, inability to attract a suitable woman and so on, because in most cases such men will be very unhappy with things, whether they admit it or not, especially if they are bitter. But really one can feel better with a firmer foundation in the… Read more »
re: rising above one’s perceived needs. But only if that perceived need is love. And only if it is a man who perceives he needs love from a woman. He’s the only one who is required to try to be able to transcend. Let’s take a naturalist example. One could train a koala to rise above his need for eucalyptus, enduring rather stale koala kibble that is supposedly healthier than his natural inclination. Especially if one is trying to “Save the eucalyptus!” from his predations, or to make him, indeed force him, to better appreciate the rare dole of eucalyptus.… Read more »
@New Yorker “One is only truly healthy when he has no need for the manosphere.” In other words – one is truly healthy when he has no need for TRUTH, KNOWLEDGE? Ignorance is bliss, yeah? Ignorance IS bliss for glenns and minters of the word. They need their projections, idealizations and lies to be able to…live and work. Men are SO STUPID!!!! Manosphere does exactly what women have been doing for millenia..it spreads knowledge and infomations about the opposite gender and give advices how to deal with it. Men in the past have struggled individually, without knowledge. They had their… Read more »
@Kate “Rhetoric doesn’t ultimately make men feel better. Women do.” You are woman, so you think and feel like one. You merges. You ultimately need someone else to merge with, to be happy. You have no concept of truth, justice, goodness. You have this emotional void, this emptiness…called “love” and “happiness” which have to be given to you from outside by someone else. You want to be…happy. Yoo want to feel ..loved, needed by someone. Then you feel complete. This is ALL that matters to you. It is how you live, how you survive. It si who you are. Men… Read more »
^These 2 posts nailed it.
Men need women to feeeeeeel better lol
Lol. Been a busy week and I’m only back here now to see what came from my commentary. I spend my time building two cloud companies backed by angel investors. And doing loops around the lake I live on. And reading. And rehearsing for for my gig Thursday night. And with friends and family. And gaming the 25 yr old hottie I’m seeing who finds my dominant, ambitious, positive and clear frame of life delightful to step into (funny how hot some women find being a mentor to be). Rollo – thanks for “amused mastery”, it’s a great place to… Read more »
@Eon, M Simon and Siirtyrion, “Magent, to have a discussion that leads to clarity, the relevant points need to be stated as simply as possible, otherwise you start and end with the same confusing mess, and one that cannot actually be shown to support any of the claimed conclusions.” “Nailed it. Reality always gives extra points to those who can express the most complex stuff in the simplest way.” This was my issue with you, Siirtyrion, and if I am not the only one seeing this, then it seems like it would be an issue. I am not piling on;… Read more »
Meant to type:
“Mark, I have to admit, I only know tangentially anything about you.”
“With all respect to your personal journey, but I find that statement to support the idea that you’ve fallen back into the Beta pit wholesale.”
I read his latest post as being a rationalization of his oneitis.
@gregg: And in my opinion, people- regardless of gender- who have never financially supported their family are the ones to be called children. If that is a woman, she is a child. If that is a man, he is a child. I’ve done it. Have you?
@jacklabear: I believe we can rise above our wiring. And thank you for the earlier note 🙂 @Novaseeker: I can agree with “rhetoric is not enough.” I don’t honestly think men or women are as completely happy as they can be when they are single versus when they are coupled. Aristotle’s writing on happiness is the basis of my thought. @Magent: No, no problem. He is not referring to our relationship there. We don’t get bent out of shape over each other’s comments anyway. What he is referring to is the fact that game does not magically transform everyone into… Read more »
@Kate As I get older, I modulate my wired behavior a little more than I used to in some ways. OTOH, swallowing the red pill is about allowing appropriate expression of some of my wiring. I have mixed feelings about “rising above our wiring”. If I point out to ethical vegetarians that it is nature’s way for some animals to eat other animals, they respond with “unlike animals, humans have moral reasoning and are capable of making a choice not to do that”. My response is that the attitude that humans know better than nature, are beyond nature or can… Read more »
@jacklabear: I understand what you’re saying. Its the central question of one of my favorite books: Frankenstein. “Learn from me, if not by my precepts, at least by my example, how dangerous is the acquirement of knowledge and how much happier that man is who believes his native town to be the world, than he who aspires to become greater than his nature will allow.” Let me try to be more clear in my wording. I don’t propose defying our nature (or living unnatural lives) so much as not letting the bad part of our nature give us an excuse… Read more »
@Magent re: “Now, this may be seen as taunting or being confrontational, but I have to honestly ask if this is not in fact parody? I mean it.”
Me too. Good question, not likely to get real answer.
@Kate, re: choosing.
Proverbs 8:12 says “I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.”
The wisest and most prudent thing to do is find out knowledge.
Did you see Frankenhooker? 😉
“After his attractive fiancée is cut into pieces in a freak accident involving a lawnmower, aspiring mad scientist Jeffrey Franken is determined to put her back together again. He sets about reassembling his girlfriend using parts from a variety of New York prostitutes. However, his bizarre plan goes awry when his reanimated girlfriend no longer wants just him, but for money will take on anybody, and afterwards try to kill them.”
Men CAN and SHOULD work on pleasing and making themselves happy, FIRST.
That is her #1 complaint about me. It seems I have been doing something right.
I was using facebook. Now you know my name. My friends though (and the first mate) call me Simon. Anyone who thinks they are being familiar with me by calling me Michael doesn’t know me. My Dad signed M. Simon. In honor of him I do too.
@Kate, “No, no problem. He is not referring to our relationship there. We don’t get bent out of shape over each other’s comments anyway. What he is referring to is the fact that game does not magically transform everyone into sex tigers. Very scary truth approaching: some men will never be seen as high value to some women. Game improves people’s lives only so much; where you end up depends on where you started.” First, because it does directly relate to you and your relationship does not mean there is a not an issue here, a discrepancy. Is this an… Read more »
Well said. Everyone male with a SMV under 8 is playing in a game they are genetically programmed to lose.
@ gregg & @ glenn – well said guys
Why don’t you ask Rollo to post current pictures of himself? You mean like this one from about a month ago? https://twitter.com/RationalMale/status/487285263551315969 I would assume you’d be an ecstatic blushing bride and want to post your wedding pics for so cynical a manosphere, being the model of watered down purple pill marital bliss, right? Why don’t you question his existence? Maybe because I have a book published on Amazon and I have an email address on my About page, if anyone really wanted to verify it? Ask Mark, he’s emailed me more than once. The only reason you’re so pissed… Read more »
Hmm, what have we here? More trolling…
Kate, I know Aunt Giggles and you’re no Aunt Giggles, but you’re about as relevant.
Alexa (an Amazon company) knows all.
@Rollo, that was a hilarious post you linked to. It would take a lot of time to write.
@Rollo, lol at her idea that women require a man to have “morally appealing” employment for him to be sexually desirable. Not to mention the too-obviously telegraphed attempts to pretend that a e.g. a 56 yr old man needs to hurry up and man up already and marry some slut with kids because he’s going to look sooo much older at age 57 …
Accelerated aging in men! What nonsense! Middle aged men go into a virtual stasis field compared to women.
Profession has and always will tell you most of what you need to know about a man. If he is involved in the sale of liquor (even if that is just branding it), well, it really boils down to selling sin, which exploits the weak. (And you’re not going to convince the ex-wife of an alcoholic otherwise.) If this man wants to take a position of moral authority, he will find his foundation is cracked. In the past, I went out a few times with a lawyer who was creating an online divorce service. I had a long-distance e-lationship with… Read more »
Accelerated aging in men! What nonsense! Middle aged men go into a virtual stasis field compared to women.
At 69 I can tell you I have experienced that – with the first mate watching. It drives her nuts. I ask on such occasions, “Does her interest make you hot for me.” The invariable answer is, “Yes.”
August 6th, 2014 at 10:21 pm
Well Kate my former Rabbi is selling pot in DC.
He and I are good friends.
And I probably should mention:
I’m also good friends with former police detective, Howard Wooldridge:
He lobbies Congress on Drug Legalization. All drugs.
And Kate – if you knew anything about alcoholism you would know that most (all?) of it is due to PTSD. Have you no compassion for those needing relief from the inner torment of prior abuse or trauma?
I have no objection to your opinion but to clothe it in the garb of morality? Can’t your opinion stand on its own?
Thanks for bringing out a side of Kate I hadn’t seen. I was beginning to like her. Now? Not so much.
Since it seems in vogue today here is a link to my picture:
And another funny thing. I just gave the first daughter a link to Feynman’s “You Just Ask Them” with supporting material. You should have seen her face go white. I also told her that I used Game (not in those words) to keep me and the first mate bonded as did my Dad with my Mom.
I figure shedding her illusions is the best thing I can do for her – since “society” is unlikely to oblige.
She is a bright girl. I hope once the shock wears off she gets it.
You know, technically, Jesus did change water to wine in order to keep a wedding reception in good spirits, thus making him a distiller (or vintner I suppose). I think Kate needs to renounce her faith in someone so lacking “moral authority”.
I don’t honestly think men or women are as completely happy as they can be when they are single versus when they are coupled. Aristotle’s writing on happiness is the basis of my thought. Yes, I know where it comes from, but I disagree with him. I rather take my cue from Paul when it comes to such things. From my perspective, a relationship with a woman can certainly be additive to happiness, but it can also be subtractive from happiness. The baseline happiness of anyone, however, comes from within (and from one’s relationship with God, if one is religious).… Read more »
A woman should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life, never the focus of it. III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You… Read more »
August 6th, 2014 at 11:16 pm
A woman should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.
Indeed. And also not the necessary ingredient for him to be happy — that creates a dependency which is very detrimental, not just from a pragmatic perspective, but from a spiritual one as well.
Re: M Simon
August 6th, 2014 at 11:01 pm
I just got word back from the 1st daughter. She is opting looking for a beta. In her words (paraphrased) she doesn’t want “one of those assholes”. Ah well. Life will teach her its lessons. One way or another.