Commodifying Love

commodity

Dalrock gave me something to chew on recently:

In my first post of 2014 I introduced the topic of the ugly feminist.  As I explained at the time, this is an old charge but is typically aimed at the superficial instead of the core problem.  Feminists are ugly because the philosophy of feminism is ugly. It is based on avoiding caring for others and being miserly with love.  Several commenters pointed out that this is a devastating charge against feminism, as they could see no viable counter argument for it.

I’m not going to try to offer a counter to Dal’s assertion because in essence I think he’s correct. However I will suggest that this ugliness is the result of a commodification of love (and with it sexual access) that’s resulted from the unfettering of women’s Hypergamy. Love and caring is the commodity women’s Hypergamy uses to fulfill their dualistic sexual strategy.

To this day my most contentious post (and chapter in the book) on RM is Women in Love. This is primarily due to first time readers taking my assertions to their literal extreme. Women’s concept of love stems from opportunism, men’s concept stems from idealism. Most women and Blue Pill men take this to mean that women cannot actually love a man, and absolutist men angry with themselves for having never understood it think much the same thing, “My God! I knew it all along, women cannot actually love a man.”

I assert neither of these positions (really the same position) in that post, nor any of the followup post (that no one seems to want to read once they make up their minds), but what I do assert is:

Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

In its simplicity this speaks volumes about about the condition of Men. It accurately expresses a pervasive nihilism that Men must either confront and accept, or be driven insane in denial for the rest of their lives when they fail to come to terms with the disillusionment.

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In prior posts I’ve also made the case that men’s idealistic perspective of love stems from an unending need for performance to merit a woman’s opportunistic love. It’s not that men want an unrealistic, unconditional love, but rather they want a woman’s love to be a refuge from having to perform up to, above and beyond the requirements of satisfying an unending optimization of her Hypergamy. It’s not unconditional love they idealize, it’s a love that’s not predicated on their burden of performance.

What frustrates this love idealism is that men are popularly sold the idea that women’s love is based on a mutually similar model. From Disney movies to romantic comedies, to Shakespeare and epic stories, to popular music and the daily talk shows, the message is that love (if it’s real love) is omniscient, conquers all and overcomes all odds. It’s a very seductive message of hope for men whose lives and existences are evaluated on constant performance.

“Could she really love me despite all of my glaring inadequacies?”

“Does she love the real me or is it my money and the lifestyle I provide for her?”

The fact that these themes are a constant in human history illustrates the subconscious, peripheral awareness we have of the differing models of love each sex bases their understanding of love on.

The Commodity

What this selling of idealistic love does for men is keep them in a state of perpetual hope that this idealism is shared by both sexes and they can realistically achieve that ideal goal of a love not founded on his performance. It’s important to note here that this performance isn’t necessarily something a man must make a constant effort to maintain (though this is the usual case), but rather what he represents, not who he is personally. It may be that his effortless looks or inherent status represents a cue for a woman’s optimal hypergamous satisfaction, or it may be the result of years of dedicated performance effort – either way it’s what that man represents; remove the factors a man possesses that satisfy a woman’s Hypergamy and her opportunistic model of love will reveal itself.

Feminists are ugly because the philosophy of feminism is ugly. It is based on avoiding caring for others and being miserly with love.

Dalrock’s observation here is profound in that it illustrates exactly the state of opportunism on which women base their concept of love. On some level of consciousness women understand the inherent value their love, concern, attention and caring has for men. It’s repression or expression is a commodity that has reward value for men who also have an awareness that their performance is what merits a woman’s love.

The popular criticism is that this want for an idealistic love is really a man’s preoccupation with his need for sex, but this is to be expected from a fem-centric culture that needs women to ration love and caring for men in order to ensure its social dominance. And God forbid a man express his desire for a performance-less based love and caring; he’s ostracized for wanting a mother’s love (Freudian), being necessitous (thus powerless) and revealing his deficiency in performance.

As Open Hypergamy becomes more proudly embraced and normalized in society, so too will women’s sexual strategy be laid more bare. And in laying that strategy bare, so too will women’s opportunistic model of love become more apparent to men. This new apparentness is already conflicting with the old-order messaging that kept men hopeful of realizing their idealistic love state.

Women cannot sell Open Hypergamy and the love-conquers-all ethereal ideal love at the same time.

Dal is correct, the philosophy of feminism is ugly, but it’s important to consider that feminism is just the current social operative of the Feminine Imperative today. For the moment women can be miserly with love and caring. They can even express resentment for having to be so with men who they doubt are meritorious of it, or for those who don’t measure up to the rigors of an increasingly open and increasingly demanding Hypergamy.

They can do this because they understand that the hopeful, idealistic love they have men convinced can be achieved is still a commodity to men.

Before I close, I’m going to give you a bit of Red Pill hope (again). Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. My point with this essay is to reveal how this love develops and the conditional environments it comes together in. In spite of the strongest bonds, there is a threshold at which men’s loving idealism and women’s performance requirements can test, stress and break that bond.

Men’s idealistic love can be strong, as can women’s opportunistic love – the two models are not mutually incompatible, and it’s my belief that the two are even complementary to each other. Neither is a right or wrong way to love, and neither is the definition of real love. Bear in mind these are models that predicate a condition of love, what happens after that is up to the individuals.

Where these models become incompatible is when one commodifies and exploits the condition of love that the other holds. In an era of unapologetic feminine primacy and unignorable open Hypergamy, this commodification undeniably rests with the feminine.

For further reading see the Love series of posts:

Women in Love
Men in Love
Of Love and War
Burden of Performance
Love Story

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Gurney Halleck That article… He’s not “97% onboard” with feminism. He’s about two rants from saying “the hell with it” and going full anti-feminist. So much of that article struck home for me. I was never fat or lazy, but I was always made fun of, bullied, and beaten up by guys. Made fun of, threatened, rejected, publicly humiliated and emasculated by girls. I was punished so hard every day of my life for being a nerd when all I wanted was to find love outside my family that was so abusive. Privilege my ass. Nerds aren’t even privileged in… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

they’re speaking a language that looks superficially like english, but sure as fuck ain’t english.

No it is not.

Matt
Matt
6 years ago

It reminds of women who say they married a doctor – “you know shelly married a doctor”. You are a doctor, you are a lawyer. That is all that matters to them – just don’t become a poor one. When people accuse men of becoming workaholics and having their identity as being solely their profession, it is simply because women have forced men to be this way. It was the only way a man could continue to receive some form of love. Men must maintain what they have become in order to keep their wives and in doing so often… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: sex role reversal.

I don’t see any, much less a lot of, Sadie Hawkins-ish activities, ever, anywhere. Hence I conclude no such role reversal is happening nor imminent.

On the idea that women love alphas differently than betas: no. Women merely don’t love betas, or very little.

enrique432
enrique432
6 years ago

As the SMP has become more equalitarian, in that it is open and accepted by both genders (it’s ok for women to sleep around now, and you dare not shame them), we simply have a return to the ancient order of things. If Serial Divorce/Remarriage was the Western version of polygany–where it was still better to be the THIRD wife to Johnny Carson, versus a bricklayer (removed from his market), no different than “3rd Concubine” to pick your Alpha male–then open hypergamy has simply re-set the order of things whereby the bottom half of men are essentially useful only for… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: true N and sex roles.

Women lie about sex. Period. Women’s N’s are the same as men’s, as has been found repeatedly when not using simple questionnaires.

Fisher, T. D. (2013). Gender roles and pressure to be truthful: The bogus pipeline modifies gender differences in sexual but not nonsexual behavior. Sex Roles, 68, 401-414.

It’s possible, to the point of likely, that promiscuous women have more homosexual male offspring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_promiscuity

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: Low Beta Tolerance.

Feminists hate betas so much that they invent the projection scheme called microaggression to explain the scorn of women for nice guys. What they relaly want is macroaggression from bad boys.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

The beatings will continue. It doesn’t matter if your morale improves or not.

Badpainter
6 years ago

“The beatings will continue.”

But they’re done out of love.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Badpainter re: love, sweet love.

When a man falls out of love with a woman, he merely has to select one of the dozen reasons she’s been shoving at him for months: she’s mean, hateful, pushy, snarling, getting fat, lazy, disrespectful, etc etc.

When a woman falls out of love with a man, she has to invent a reason: he “secretly” hates her, so secretly that he continues to act as though he loves her.

wideawake
wideawake
6 years ago

@jf12 re: “No. I’m supposed to have the same agape love for my neighbor’s wife, but that agape love is NOT supposed to “keep me around”!” In the Christian (marriage is God’s covenant) context, that is exactly what it does do if the choice is made to practice it. Agape WAS the word used in ancient Greek to define the love relationship between spouses. I’m not trying to proselytize. If anyone doesn’t believe in absolutist morality, God, unconditional love, etc, that’s their prerogative as a human being. But these things are defining elements of the Christian concept of love. A… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

A little poll here, if you please. 1. How quickly do you fall in love? 2. How quickly did you fall in love with your first love? 3. How quickly did you fall in love with your latest love? My answers: 1. Very fast; jackrabbit fast. 2. Well, it depends what I mean. My first crush (in junior high) was instant; at first scent rather than first sight. My first wife was my first real date (in college) and I crushed instantly upon first intimate talking but it took almost a week for me to really fall head over heels… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@wideawake re: “Agape WAS the word used in ancient Greek to define the love relationship between” everyone.

It is simply false that the Bible teaches that we are to treat our wives as though they are our neighbors’ wives. Period.

Badpainter
6 years ago

re: love, sweet love

I’d rather receive lust, respect, fear, trust, power, or nothing. Love is just the measure of potential divided by opportunity cost.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

So, exactly how much is a man’s love worth to a woman? What do women give in exchange for a man’s love?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Do women really comprehend what men mean by falling in love?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

A man will give his own life in exchange for *his* love. That’s how much a man’s love is worth to a man.

Roby
Roby
6 years ago

Today I’m sharing my Red Pill awareness story, I don’t know if it is the right place or the right time, but Rollo’s is the only Manosphere blog I follow, as I feel the frontiers of Manosphere are tested and defined here. I think here we have access to one step further than science can explain us (and in an understandable way). The IQ level of commenters/comments here are way over average. Here I feel outsmarted, I’m humble enough to say that. Once again, thank you, not only to Rollo but to all of this community, that probably saved more… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong “If the way raise young men defines the answers to shit tests with 100% wrong answers is no longer a test. You’re actually trying to make sure no one passes. That’s not a test, that’s sabotaging yourself and the test taker. It would be like teaching somebody English their whole life then telling them their college admission exam depends entirely on their knowledge of Japanese. But you wanted them to get in to college. You fucked your own objective over. There was no point to that test because you defined their entire reality improperly, all the while knowing… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

This isn’t the topic for it, but I’d really love to have a discussion about women’s ubiquitous antiloving (antimating; de-mating, de-loving) behaviors: the things women do all the time to dissuade their own men from love.

We all know that a woman who loves is agreeable. Hence, the reason she is disagreeable to you is specifically to communicate her hatred to you. But we aren’t allowed to discuss this inarguable fact with women.

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@jf12 “We all know that a woman who loves is agreeable. Hence, the reason she is disagreeable to you is specifically to communicate her hatred to you. But we aren’t allowed to discuss this inarguable fact with women.” When you first meet a woman and a relationship is made and there love there isn’t any anger or hatred. Why is there anger and hatred? (aside from doing stupid things and having dumb fights) it all gets sourced back to resentment, anger towards the man betaness. So it only makes sense that out of this hate for the mans weakness and… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ jf12
It’s simply not true that a 5’4″ woman finds 5’6″ men tall enough.
I’m 5’7″ and I believe my wife is 5’4″. She has always been very attractive. I’m not attractive except perhaps for my physique. I’m way below just about every woman’s height requirement but I’ve always found a way to get a waiver and they let me in.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “Men’s idealistic love can be strong, as can women’s opportunistic love – the two models are not mutually incompatible, and it’s my belief that the two are even complementary to each other. Neither is a right or wrong way to love, and neither is the definition of real love.” If by “real” love you mean agape love, which we can define as love for the soul, then ok. Because then men’s idealistic love falls short by being “love for love’s sake”, and women’s opportunistic love falls extremely short by being “love for strength”. This formulation suggests a symplectification to… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

So, what are some of men’s antimating behaviors – the ones that inevitably make women not want to mate – that are not niceguy beta stuff?

Badpainter
6 years ago

Bromeo – “…females don’t know what shit testing is, even though they do it subconsciously.”

Seriously? My observation suggests it’s intentional and with forethought (sometimes malice). The aftermath is often a justification process where excuses like “hormones”, “women’s emotions”, “I was being cray” or “it’s my nature” are tossed about to diminish their responsibility for conceiving of and executing the test. I wonder if the justification is second part of the test to see if we fool enough to be either deceived, or test our blind faith in the their innate goodness, perhaps both.

Roby
Roby
6 years ago

@jf12

So, what are some of men’s antimating behaviors – the ones that inevitably make women not want to mate – that are not niceguy beta stuff?

– tell them that you have a serious desease;
– tell them that you have a high probability of having a desease and die young.

Work like a charm.

wideawake
wideawake
6 years ago

@jf12 re: “It is simply false that the Bible teaches that we are to treat our wives as though they are our neighbors’ wives. Period.” Yes, it is false that the bible teaches that we are to treat our wives as though they are our neighbors’ wives. I never stated that. It clearly does teach we are to share the same agape for our wives as we are for everyone. 1 John 3:16-18King James Version (KJV) 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ jf12
I’m nowhere near as cool or as smooth as Cupid Shmupid. He is 100 times better than I will ever be. But at 5’7″ this is the basic method I used to get past women’s height requirements. Always be fun and confident. It works.

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@Badpainter “Seriously? My observation suggests it’s intentional and with forethought (sometimes malice). The aftermath is often a justification process where excuses like “hormones”, “women’s emotions”, “I was being cray” or “it’s my nature” are tossed about to diminish their responsibility for conceiving of and executing the test. I wonder if the justification is second part of the test to see if we fool enough to be either deceived, or test our blind faith in the their innate goodness, perhaps both.” Its intentional in the subconscious sense, but do they actually comprehend it in reality? I don’t think so. I cant… Read more »

Badpainter
6 years ago

@ Bromeo

Although I disagree you do provide an explanation as to why I dismiss these tests as invalid and a waste of my time.

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@zdr01dz

“I’m nowhere near as cool or as smooth as Cupid Shmupid. He is 100 times better than I will ever be. But at 5’7″ this is the basic method I used to get past women’s height requirements. Always be fun and confident. It works.”

I don’t think 5’7″ for a male is that bad at all, I am 5’8″ myself and would say there is only a fairly small percentage of women I see/meet that are taller than me.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@BP re: “My observation suggests it’s intentional and with forethought ”

Me too.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Roby, re: “– tell them that you have a high probability of having a desease and die young.”

Believe it or not this does indeed work in the sense of attracting women for sex. Women are much more likely to have unprotected first-night sex with a man whom they believe (are led to believe) is extremely promiscuous and routinely unprotected.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@wideawake

Nope. Agape love is THE universal love. It’s not snowflake special.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@zd01dz re: Cupid Schmupid. He’s pretty good.

If commodification is the exploitation of the opportunizability of love, Game is the exploitation of the mechanizability of attraction. For getting from lack of attraction to attraction, Game’s the difference between struggling on crutches to climbing into a Cadillac.

Tony Stark
Tony Stark
6 years ago

@Johnycomelately “Could it be that we are today witnessing the evidence of sex role reversal behaviour, where females used to be the rate limiter of male sex, alphas are now the rate limiter of female sex. If that’s the case then females may be engaging in idealistic love for alphas, that is they are expressing male behaviour.” ————– This absolutely true. If a girl’s femininity is gone, Im not wasting my time, i dont care if shes a ‘9’ or ’10’ in other peoples’ eyes. My buddy always jokes with me when I run into this, he says “catch and… Read more »

Ang Aamer
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong Oh Boy Several memes are just converging… “In terms of your other point regarding why the FI is aiming for betafication of men, I cant say for certain but like you said, it could be a meta shit test in order to keep the divide of alphas and betas in society.” -Whether by plan or design that is what is happening. Shit tests causes A stratification of Males into groups. “If the way raise young men defines the answers to shit tests with 100% wrong answers is no longer a test. You’re actually trying to make sure… Read more »

Dagonet (The Quest Forever)
Reply to  Ang Aamer

It seems like we are all pedestalizing men a little bit. Nature is a perfect balance, and if the way men are attracted and fall in love is “right” then it’s equally so for women. Nobody on this thread has really commented on the fact that men require physical attraction to fall in love. Men may love “idealistically,” but only if the girl has a great rack and plump ass. Every man has his preferences, but he will “fall in love” only when she turns him on first. How many girls do you pass on the street that you could… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Ang Aamer re: “WHY ON EARTH are all the nerds putting up with” so much?

On the way to an answer, take into account that Doctor Nerd Love (not linking because awful) hates nerds and hates nerd self-actualization and hates the idea that women hate nerds and he ruthlessly white knights, satanically promoting the idea that the reason women hate nerds is because nerds hate women.

The answer is to be found in the Low Beta Threshold of women. Since nerds are smart, they are aware that women hate them, and they try to appease women.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “They need a good balance of alpha and beta traits”

Yes! But 100% alpha + 0% beta is the goodest balance.

D-Man
D-Man
6 years ago

@ Sun:

“study human interaction like any other subject”

YES. This is what we do here that is most valuable. This is what programmers like the guy in the nerd-shaming link need to understand. THEY have been programmed.

It MUST be overwritten with hard truth, if they want to reach a state in which they’re not obediently hating themselves.

J.J.
J.J.
6 years ago

Nobody here seems to be discussing the fact that women have become (very) masculine – psychologically speaking. By choice. Rollo has alluded to this. They don’t want to be like men – they want to BE men. That’s it. As an MGTOW, that’s one of the reasons why I go my own way. Besides other reasons, this one is one of the most natural – there are simply VERY FEW feminine females around/left… I have no motivation or inclination to game these androgynous beings. I’d rather go without – and go climb a mountain or something. Is it really so… Read more »

J.J.
J.J.
6 years ago

@ jf12 The reason why women hate beta’s so much nowadays is because beta’s expect reciprocity. They would also expect some responsibility and effort and would be less inclined to be gaming their women all the time. Women go for the biggest advantages and the most privilege/s combined with the least possible input, effort and importantly – responsibility or accountability. Betas would always demand some of the aforementioned – therefore in today’s world they are a real pain in the ass for women… (to the extent that they HATE them – with a passion), because betas would expect women to… Read more »

J.J.
J.J.
6 years ago

“men are the gatekeepers of commitment, after all…” Yes, interesting observation – but in the past it were the women who had to jump through hoops to “land a man” – i.e. they had to posses a whole plethora of skills (these were taught by older women – grandmothers and mothers and elders in the community, etc), which they were trained and taught to do – to be able to “land a quality man” – and men only wanted quality women. No woman wanted to be a “spinster”. Well those days are so well and truly gone that it sounds… Read more »

J.J.
J.J.
6 years ago

Call this misogyny or not (yet the ancients knew this very well). Women need to be trained and educated into being WOMEN (a woman) – they do not become well-trained, well formed, feminine beings on/out of their own. They become what we have today.

J.J.
J.J.
6 years ago

“…they do not become [well-trained], well formed, feminine beings on/out of their own. They become what we have today.”

Or let’s rather say: well-balanced females.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Bromeo
I don’t think 5’7″ for a male is that bad at all, I am 5’8″ myself and would say there is only a fairly small percentage of women I see/meet that are taller than me.

Most girls want 6′ tall guys but thankfully for me they seem to accept men that are at least a few inches taller than they are. Almost no women will date guys that are shorter than they are. To women that is a line in the sand that shouldn’t be crossed.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

My explanation for man’s inclination towards idealistic love. Answer: Love increases the chances of successful, long-term pair bonding which in turn increases the number of children that survive to adulthood. Outside of beauty women possess few traits that are useful or attractive to men in primitive environments. In response natural selection favored men who loved women simply because they were women. This is the foundation of idealistic love. Background: Not to beat a dead horse but at a minimum a man needs these and probably other traits or women won’t find him attractive. A) He must be taller than she… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

^^^^^^
This hypothesis predicts that on some level there is a little bit of white knight in every man. It is part of our biology.

the bandit
the bandit
6 years ago

Where these models become incompatible is when one commodifies and exploits the condition of love that the other holds.

I’m still not sure I truly understand this (ongoing) topic, and I think this sentence holds the key for me. Could you expand on how men commodify and exploit their idealistic love condition? Would it be in demanding that their woman love them idealistically in return?

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@zdr01dz “Most girls want 6′ tall guys but thankfully for me they seem to accept men that are at least a few inches taller than they are. Almost no women will date guys that are shorter than they are. To women that is a line in the sand that shouldn’t be crossed.” The still do it but its definitely a small percentage but the shorter man would need to be a very high performer (ie. Kevin Heart and his wife who is much taller). Me personally cant and will not date a woman who is taller than me, it just… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@J.J. “Nobody here seems to be discussing the fact that women have become (very) masculine – psychologically speaking. By choice. Rollo has alluded to this. They don’t want to be like men – they want to BE men. That’s it.” Whats the reason behind this though? Is it because of all the betas out there making them become more masculine? I don’t think its a choice, I think its being done subconsciously, similar to when you are in a relationship and become weak, the female will start to show resentment and then take on more of a masculine role. Its… Read more »

J.J.
J.J.
6 years ago

Whats the reason behind this though?

Their freedom and equality (or rather – privelage and not having accountability) has allowed them to go for their ultimate fantasy…

Freud understood this very well and described it as a kind of envy…
(you can look it up).

In addition – neither betas nor alphas demand any responsibility from them any more – everyone is just trying to game them – for THEIR pleasure…. until they get bored of you and exchange you for a new accessory.

forgethesky
6 years ago

Thanks, Rollo. This post is a good clarification of your point about how women love. It kinda made sense to me after a lot of effort; today, in a conversation with my old flame/oneitis that I broke up with a while back, I ‘got it’ a lot better. She (unknowingly) laid it out for me. My point with this essay is to reveal how this love develops and the conditional environments it comes together in. In spite of the strongest bonds, there is a threshold at which men’s loving idealism and women’s performance requirements can test, stress and break that… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@the bandit re: “Could you expand on how men commodify and exploit their idealistic love condition?”

Wrong question. Look at the original: “one commodifies and exploits the condition of love that the other holds.”

Correct answer: It’s very easy for men, e.g. PUAs, to exploit women’s opportunistic love.

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@J.J. “In addition – neither betas nor alphas demand any responsibility from them any more – everyone is just trying to game them – for THEIR pleasure…. until they get bored of you and exchange you for a new accessory.” That’s what it has pretty much come down to, be the highest performer you can be and game them hard. But that is the whole point of RP, so we game them the most efficiently so they don’t get “bored” and instead remain in the relationship. Are we going to be able to turn things around like a light switch… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12
So, exactly how much is a man’s love worth to a woman? What do women give in exchange for a man’s love?

It’s actually worth a lot, but not for the reasons we would like it to be. It’s worth control. As in if you love her, she knows she has control over you which is what she thinks she wants. Then when she has it, she can’t figure out why she’s unhappy.

What do they give for it? As little as possible. For thirsty betas, that’s the attention (the hope for sex). For alphas it’s actually sex.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12 A little poll here, if you please. 1. How quickly do you fall in love? 2. How quickly did you fall in love with your first love? 3. How quickly did you fall in love with your latest love? In keeping with the spirit of my last response: 1. In my beta days? Man it was instant. These days? The bitch has to keep her shit together for years before she’s got a chance of getting actual love out of me. I lust after a woman instantly or not at all. Love though? She has to earn that shit.… Read more »

Roby
Roby
6 years ago

@jf12

re: “They need a good balance of alpha and beta traits”
Yes! But 100% alpha + 0% beta is the goodest balance.

Not necessarily. Look at this. Pure gold.

https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-3-the-formula/

This link is to the third part (better to read all 3 parts) of Narciso’s model where he proposes a balance between alpha and beta traits.

“set the yin/beta traits at approximately 3/5 of the alpha/yang levels.”

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong re: “As in if you love her, she knows she has control over you which is what she thinks she wants.”

Yes. Women do know this.

re: “Loving a woman is by definition releasing some of that control, and not a single woman has proven herself worth that risk in my entire life.”

Me too, but I love(d) anyway.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: loveless women.

Women always, always, always blame the man and always refuse to blame the woman when sex is involved.
http://news.yahoo.com/home-where-cats-parents-refusing-travel-050017615.html
“Your wife’s lack of sex drive may be due to any of the things you mentioned. It could also be that your technique needs improving. Ask her if that might be the problem.”

Badpainter
6 years ago

Here’s what I learned about “love.” My idealistic love is worthless unless attached to dominance, strength, commitments of time, money, energy, and attention. What good is idealistic love without those other things? It doesn’t even help the man in love as he is now both distracted and highly motivated usually in a direction not congruent to his mission. Her opportunistic love is worthless without dripping wet lust, submission, obedience, loyalty, and trust. If I have all of those thing what the fuck do I need love for? I can’t see any reason why I’d want. Besides as we know with… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

I know a little ’bout love, … The Sexodus may indeed be well underway, but as alphas and Badpainter and PUAs and polygamists and etc keep telling us, what there really is, and has been for a long time, is a major major Love Exodus. Men who can, definitely will keep having sex without love. I have described my 24 yr old nice-guy son as a reluctant MGHOW, but really he simply faded into the jungle instead of bothering to continue on the Bataan Death March Of Love. Despite being 6′ tall, in great shape now, with a great job,… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Badpainter re: “Here’s what I learned about “love.” … My idealistic love is worthless … Her opportunistic love is worthless”

Yes. But YOUR opportunistic love and HER idealistic love, if achievable, would be worth plent.

Badpainter
6 years ago

“Yes. But YOUR opportunistic love and HER idealistic love, if achievable, would be worth plent.”

So would a winning lottery ticket, odds are about the same. The lottery ticket is a minute and dollar so the cost benefit analysis favors the lottery.

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

A few things come to mind with this post and I don’t have an answer but it has become a struggle as I approach my 5th year with the Red Pill. I constantly hear these things from girls: “You don’t know what I want”. “You didn’t give me what I need” “You’re so selfish” “So many guys are chasing me” I have stopped responding to this litany of vague assertions. Women think they understand men and that they are themselves such mysterious creatures. One way to set a woman off balance: When she does something say: “I knew you’d say… Read more »

Badpainter
6 years ago

Fromthe OP – “As Open Hypergamy becomes more proudly embraced and normalized in society, so too will women’s sexual strategy be laid more bare. And in laying that strategy bare, so too will women’s opportunistic model of love become more apparent to men.” I think this knowledge is now almost default amongst most men (gen X or younger).  In the past two years I’ve not heard single man deny it outright. Several have tried to reason away the implications or seriousness, but none have denied it. I also see men becoming more demanding and pickier. Demanding in that their willingness… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Just dropped a plate. Reason? She constantly gets upset that I won’t act jealous if she mentions another guy, won’t act desperate to have some of her time, and won’t beg her to stay with me. Basically she attempts to keep control by telling me she wants my love, trying to force me to love her so she can manipulate me. I called her out directly on it. “You think because I’m not jealous that I don’t care and I can’t be manipulated. You’re right on one part: I can’t be manipulated.” Denials up one side and down the other,… Read more »

the bandit
the bandit
6 years ago

@jf12. Thanks, I appreciate you correcting my mistake!

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong Yes….this idea that girls I’m banging have that I’m not “jealous” or “Caring” enough ….compared to “other guys”….is a theme I hear all the time. I had written about the 23 year old who pulled away for whatever reason. Then suddenly started giving me IOI’s to approach her. I haven’t and ignore her. Why? Because these girls have been brought up to believe that guys CHASE them. When you don’t they will call you every name in the book and launch the most vicious gossip campaigns to slag you off…. In the end if you weather all this…they’ll… Read more »

Momentum
Momentum
6 years ago

“Women don’t like overt dominance, just as they don’t like overt objectification or adoration. It’s when it’s covert that they respond most favorably – women love to be objectified, dominated and adored, but only by men who know better than to remind her of it.” Rollo, I have developed the desire to have a D/S relationship (BDSM context) with the next woman that I take as partner. The problem is that such would require me to be overt about it, especially to talk about soft and hard limits, what would it mean to be in a bdsm relationship or the… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

I’ve come to a realization that I want to bounce off you guys. I suddenly realized that every time a woman asks you a meta question about your relationship: “Are you happy with me?” “Would you stay with me if you met someone better?” “Would you be angry if I said one of your friends with cute?” Or even “Does my ass look fat in these jeans?” Every single one every single time is a shit test. Not a one is a question to be straight forward answered. Agree and amplify, amused mastery with a shit eating grin, or straight… Read more »

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

I stopped expecting my woman to love me. What I’m expecting of her now is, in order of priority (and I force myself to behave as if I’m expecting this):

1. Respect
2. Submission
3. Lust
4. Loyalty

To my somewhat surprise this actually seems to work, in that there is more sex and more loving behavior on her part.

Roby
Roby
6 years ago

I think most times we (manosphere) over analyse things. Keep your frame, make it the best possible, instead of thinking about what can go wrong. Things should go ok. I never saw a girl dumping my Red Pill “teacher” (I met at least 30) even sometimes with him being a completely jerk, lying and getting caught with other(s). He never did more than that. Manipulation helps but if you’re happy with a low N, you don’t need that also. Focus in your way, look around! (the trick is here, don’t ignore your surroundings) and they will notice you. We know… Read more »

Roby
Roby
6 years ago

@ Matatan

+1 Completely agree with you. Expect that, if not next her. Keep your boundaries.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong re: “Every single one every single time is a shit test.”

Yes. Take it to the bank: anything a woman asks her man that isn’t some obvious request for real information (e.g. “What time is the flight supposed to arrive?”), and even a *lot* of those RFIs, is a total shit test. Especially anything involving opinions or feelings, 100% of the time. Anything that puts her in the judgment seat, always a shit test.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Momentum re: covert dominance. Context, context, context. The very next part of the same paragraph is “I’ve always advocated the positive effect of maintaining an ambient threat of competition anxiety with women, but this form of dominance cannot be an overt display. Dominance must be playing in the background, only occasionally being amplified as situations warrant. Women need to know it’s there, but her imaginations of that masculine dominance are more useful to a man than a constant, present, overt reminder of it.” Rollo was talking about the women responding favorably to the *ambience* of dread via covert dominance. Women… Read more »

Badpainter
6 years ago

jf12 – “I think overt dominance is a LOT more strongly effective, but YOU may not like the effect: inducing fear, cowering, etc.” This puts me to wondering.  Is the particular emotion a woman expresses relevant, or is it the intensity of the emotion the issue? Are we chasing our tails being concerned about negative emotions when what we should be mindful of is the intensity of emotion without regard for the emotion itself? What if fear is as good as joy so long as both are managed at a reasonable level of intensity?  I think this might explain why… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

Matatan
January 4th, 2015 at 6:36 am

I would rate them this way.

1. Submission
2. Respect
3. Lust
4. Loyalty

She has to submit first. Now maybe you think she will not submit unless she respects. And I could buy into that some. But IMO submission has to top the list once she has made a choice.

Loyalty? Impossible for women to practice except towards her children.

And lust? Well you need to warm her up. Continually.

M Simon
6 years ago

Badpainter
January 4th, 2015 at 10:13 am

What if fear is as good as joy so long as both are managed at a reasonable level of intensity?

I think you are on to something here. I note the first mate oscillates. When her joy bucket is full she likes fear and when her fear bucket is full joy is a great relief. I used to think that it was bi-polar. Are they all like that?

M Simon
6 years ago

Badpainter January 4th, 2015 at 10:13 am Good feelz of low intensity are inferior to higher intensity bad feelz. OK. They are all like that. The fm told me early on that she liked sex best after a week or two of feeling bad because it was such a rush. I once got her to do 3 weeks straight. When ever I wanted to poke her. At the end it was “If I knew it was going to be that good I’d do it all the time.” I said I needed a day or two off to recharge a little.… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

jf12
January 4th, 2015 at 9:20 am

Rollo was talking about the women responding favorably to the *ambience* of dread via covert dominance. Women certaintly don’t *like* overt dread.

Mine does. So you may be generally correct. But not absolutely.

forgethesky
6 years ago

jf12 – “So, what are some of men’s antimating behaviors – the ones that inevitably make women not want to mate – that are not niceguy beta stuff?

In my experience, ignoring her. Acting annoyed when she tries to pay attention to you. Just brings them on harder at first, but eventually they get the picture. Just like a woman withholding sex or affection – at first it brings the guy on harder, but eventually it breaks him.

This might be considered beta, but I’ve heard faking a panic attack can work wonders as well. Never tried it though.

forgethesky
6 years ago

Badpainter – “Is the particular emotion a woman expresses relevant, or is it the intensity of the emotion the issue? Are we chasing our tails being concerned about negative emotions when what we should be mindful of is the intensity of emotion without regard for the emotion itself? What if fear is as good as joy so long as both are managed at a reasonable level of intensity? “ I think this is largely correct. Women want, more than perhaps anything else, to experience a full emotional palette. A lot of relationship issues stem from this – men want peace… Read more »

forgethesky
6 years ago

Here’s a theory: I wonder if women develop a sense of what emotions are ‘right’ for them to feel in infancy, and feel like something is ‘off’ if they aren’t feeling those emotions in roughly the same proportions now? So, if a woman was raised attentively and lovingly, she will feel like things are ‘right’ when you can create mostly positive emotions in her, like wonder and excitement. She will shut down if she feels negative emotions too often. A woman raised poorly will tend to respond best to negative emotions, hence the proclivity to stay with abusive men. My… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@forgettheysky re: “Just brings them on harder at first”

That’s what I’m trying to avoid; long term actually doesn’t matter. Without details, I’m trying to drive, er, a new woman away without making her glad about it. I feel if I take a high road in an alpha way, that she will feel motivated to try harder instead.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Jenine sez “I know I’ll break your heart”
http://thoughtcatalog.com/jenine-jay-bufi/2015/01/how-i-know-ill-break-your-heart/

In fact, she’s *planning* on how to most hurt you! She says explicitly it’s *because* she knows you love her, that is the *reason* she’s planning to break your heart!

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

“so what’s the problem?”
http://thoughtcatalog.com/deanna-emanuelle/2015/01/why-your-best-friend-is-better-than-prince-charming/

Women. Women are the problem; women and their evil commodification of love.

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

@M Simon
Not sure how that would work, submitting to someone without respecting him. I guess fear could do the job but I don’t want to be feared by her, but respected.
Now that I have achieved respect and made progress on the submission, I find that she behaves more attracted to me resulting in more sex and affection. Loyalty starts to disappear as an issue as a result.
I’m not where I want to be just yet but things are a lot better than six months ago.

Brian
Brian
6 years ago

A suggestion for a definition: “Apex Alpha”: A man that combines the desirable attributes of both alpha and beta guys (e.g., providing a high salary and stability if I’m not mistaken). In other words, an attractive man that has his shit together career (or provider) -wise (e.g., making at least six figures, and isn’t a lazy lay-a-bout). It seems to me that the current definition of “alpha” is just a guy that looks handsome or like James Bond or Fabio that the ladies find sexually arousing (attraction based entirely on physical arousal), but lives in his mom’s basement and his… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Brian
Last I checked, nobody says making money and being alpha are mutually exclusive. Nor is being “hawt” a prerequisite for being alpha. Alphas simply refuse to provision for women because they don’t have to. Betas HAVE to provision so they can get sex. “Beta Bux” doesn’t mean alphas don’t have money, it simply means they’re not giving it away.

I’m in agreement with Rollo on the definition: alpha is a mindset, not a demographic.

M Simon
6 years ago

jf12 January 4th, 2015 at 2:41 pm Women. Women are the problem; women and their evil commodification of love. There was a science fiction story I read on that topic a long time ago. Can’t remember the name or author. Story opens with the guy passing a shooting gallery where you could shoot a replica woman. Him thinking, “Why would anyone pay for that?” Then he goes to the love vendor. The vendor guaranteed real love for a week. The guy gets it for a week and then it stops. He ends up at the shooting gallery plinking away. With… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

Matatan January 4th, 2015 at 3:34 pm Deep desire can do it. =================== forgethesky January 4th, 2015 at 11:16 am Mine runs on a 12 month cycle. Her home life was worst in the winter – so in winter a bad attitude predominates. In the spring her father started construction work. And like clockwork I get the good stuff for 4 to 6 weeks in the spring. Of course when she is behaving badly I cut her off from affection. That helps bring her around. In extreme cases I won’t even talk to her for days. That really does a… Read more »

kobayashii1681
6 years ago

@Badpainter – Interesting view point…in other words men need to crank up their selfishness a few notches.

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

@M Simon
That will only work in the beginning. Once the shit testing starts, you better gain her respect by passing them, or her deep desire will evaporate together with her respect and submission.

M Simon
6 years ago

Matatan
January 4th, 2015 at 5:23 pm

I cut her off when the shit testing starts. Only let her back in when she passes my shit test – becomes submissive again for a while.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ M Simon I don’t know that story, but that’s very good. F.W. Robertson said, “He is best prepared for trouble who sees it coming from afar.” Better to learn about all this stuff in private, let it expose unconscious emotions and deal with them now, than to keep them swept under the rug and have them explode years down the road when some girl breaks your heart. Realizing that my emotional reactions to EVERYTHING I read on this blog, comments and all, are a result of *what is already inside my mind*, has been pivotal to my development. Let… Read more »

xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
6 years ago

Sorry, but a woman uses her conditional love and acceptance in a selfish sense ( in her own interest), or in a more altrusitic way (in in the interest of her children, community and even in the interest of the man himself). As a mother, I certainly catch myself withholding love from my sons if they did not try to push or better themselves.
I would much much rather that my sons hate my guts but survive and thrive, rather than to wallow in my motherly love while dying in a ditch.

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ Softek – You didn’t “deserve” that blowjob. Nobody “deserves” a blowjob. So, have you signed up for a PUA course yet? Krauser’s looks quite good. Field Report: Encounter with hot young women last night. There I am pounding away and suddenly, I have this sense of the futility of it all. I realize that I’m programmed to want to do this and that sex, stripped of all the pedestalizing of women and romance, is just me shoving my dick into a woman. While I’ve been Red Pill for a while, it seems to have layers, and experiences with women… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

Glenn
January 4th, 2015 at 7:00 pm

Ah. Yes. They are ALL whores. You just have to find their price. The old joke is totally true. It only leaves out that the price has different dimensions.

M Simon
6 years ago

Softek
January 4th, 2015 at 6:10 pm

May I suggest “Surely You Are Joking, Mr. Feynman” – the chapter “You just ask them”. It fits in with what Glenn just posted. Never pay in advance. That in a very small nut shell defines A vs b.

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