As glad as I am to see George from 3rd Millenium Man grab the manopshere colors and go to the front lines, I’ll admit I’m a little disappointed with this. Roosh has predicted 2013 will be the year the manosphere goes mainstream, but my concern is less about the exposure and more about the representation. The MSM is the feminine imperative.
I understand the host here is contracted to the Huff-Po so the context begins in terms of what entertains women’s need for indignation. No indignation, no audience. George is hamstrung from the outset: we have the ubiquitous 50+, “I’m ok with the beta provider I married after fucking my spell of bad boys and learned my lesson so you gals should learn from my mistakes” woman (aka the Aunt Giggles, Kay Hymowitz archetype). Next we have the prerequisite “clinical psychologist” who looks like one of the mothers on Dance Moms, and rattles off the feel good humanist psychology truisms clichéd in the 1990’s. After that we have Nathan the self-identified White Knight who’s only purpose is to bolster both women’s feeble positions to better identify with any woman in the hopes that she might be watching and, God willing, anonymously seek him out to potentially hook up with him for being such a team player.
That’s a tough cast to work with so I will commend George on his effort, however, his dropping the ball here is less about his grasp of red-pill wisdom (I know and read his blog regularly), and more about the context that the MSM will allow the manosphere to be represented in. Learn this now red-pill literati before you venture into the MSM – the feminine imperative will gladly make you the red meat for the indignation that sells their advertising to women.
As I said, Roosh predicts that the manosphere will surface in the MSM this year, and I will concur, the manosphere will come to the attention of the greater whole of western society, but don’t think for minute it will be for the positive. With any luck it will reach out to a few blue pill men ready to realize the truth, but my trepidation is about the overall image the manosphere will be molded to by the Feminine Imperative. Men are simply not allowed to have any legitimate insight into intergender dynamics – as I’m sure George is realizing now. In girl-world, women are the sole arbiters of relationship wisdoms – men are simply foils for their legitimacy, even in the best of pretenses.
I don’t write too much specifically about the manosphere with good reason – the ‘enlightenment’ is still evolving. As I’ve been quoted many times before, unplugging guys from the Matrix is dirty work. It’s triage, and the greater majority of men aren’t ready or even in a mental position to be unplugged when you’re in a personal, one-on-one context. So when you extrapolate that to a larger context it’s easy to see how the feminine imperative will readily use men’s default lack of legitimacy for its own purpose. The greatest Threat to the Feminine Imperative is men becoming self-aware of their own sexual market value and the dissemination of information about how the imperative uses this lack of awareness to perpetuate itself.
The first recourse to prevent this is male-specific ridicule and derision for even attempting to explain the social constructs of the feminine imperative.
In a large public forum like this Huff-Po video we don’t see the underlying feminine social urgency and anxiety about men becoming aware of the mechanisms of the feminine imperative because for decades women’s unknowability has become synonymous with the feminine mystique. So it’s made laughable by default that any man would have a legitimate understanding of women – they are just unknowable, so men’s perspectives and insight about the psychology of women starts from a position of ridicule, even when it patronizingly agrees with women’s perspectives.
But underneath the Dance Mom psychological snark, underneath the accusatory tones 50+ woman uses to burn interview time, underneath the attempts at hopeful beta white knight feminine identification, even in the overall context the host uses to broach the topic, red pill men can see the nervous tension of the possibility of the rational exposure of the underpinnings of the feminine imperative.
When you’re in an isolated social setting, it’s a dangerous topic to venture into – like religion or politics – but you can make an effort without too much social repercussion. You can speak red pill truth and endure the wrath of women (who’ll likely fuck you after the fact) and white knights, but you’ll make a point. You may even open the eyes of a few men. However, the larger, meta-scale feminine narrative will use and distort your red pill awareness to make advertisers rich.
Women sustain themselves on indignation and nothing stimulates that better than a man who publicly declares he knows how women think. The Atlantic has made a very profitable business model for a dying form of media based solely upon this feminine-satisfying indignation. This host, the Huff-Po, are simply following the model. So yes, Roosh is right, the manosphere will go mainstream this year, to the overwhelming adulation of the media that’s discovered this type of feminine imperative indignation is extremely profitable.
Rollo, I’m unable to follow what you’re getting at exactly. I’m no huge fan of 3MM, and I’m yet to check out the interview, but you said he dropped the ball (George) but in what sense?
Ball is dropped at approximately eight minutes in.
I believe the word ‘pussy’ is used.
For real!? For some reason, I’m not able to check out the interview on the Huff-Po site from my browser.
I think George did well, but I think he could’ve gone on the attack more and opened up the discussion to more redpill arguments. It was just hard because it was basically 4 on 1 with the even host jumping up to ridicule him and he didn’t get much speaking time. I don’t think it matters whether the MSM embraces the redpill or not. Speaking as a semi-recent college grad (almost 3 years ago), young adults these days who witnessed hook up culture are pretty redpilled already. This is the generation that refuses to identify as feminists and embraces Tucker… Read more »
Is there a transcript someplace?
Kenny, the host is questioning 3MM about why he is the only anonymous participant, and says something to the effect of ‘Isn’t that women’s problem with men? it seems like such a pussy way to do things, plotting and scheming…’
Read : Creepy, pussy. Frame goes bye-bye.
3MM doesn’t have much of a rejoinder.
Still, respect for making an effort.
I have no recollection of pussy ever being used. Can you give us the exact point that was said?
I had made the point that I was keeping peoples’ identities private. I could have further explained, and had done so prior to the show, but that was just part of it.
[…] http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/its-their-game/ […]
@Vicomte- As much as I’m against Manosphere bloggers who remain anonymous, if there was a moment for the Manosphere to go mainstream it was 3MM’s shot. Being the only anonymous person on the segment sort of kills it. But better than nothing I guess.
Anything on the redpill/manosphere brought to mainstream media will be filtered and changed to cater to the target audience.
What you’ll be seeing is the promoting of the light version.
7:34 in the video.
Notice the evil cackle from Dr. Hamster.
That was pretty painful, but good on 3MM for trying. It came off like kind of a blindsiding of “oh I thought I’d get a chance to share my view but it turns out they just wanted a villain for everyone to rally against” (cue the blonde-about-to-hit-the-wall jumping in with supportive laughter at the host’s pussy comment). Anyone who talks to the MSM about this stuff, or even their own female/white-knight friends, should be going in fully expecting to be shit-tested thru the roof with everything from tooling to accusations to armchair diagnoses to attempts to twist words and steal… Read more »
Manosphere writers are insurgents. What you see in the video is what happens when an insugent agrees to a stand-up fight out in the open with a conventional occupying force.
The anonymity is an important issue. How many times has the messenger being killed for doing his job? You are not only dealing with angry ugly fat and old feminists and their indignation; you also deal with their enablers. They are lawyers, bankers, teachers, journalists, detectives, hackers, politicians, etc. These white knights will jump at the chance to reveal George’s identity to the smallest details. Then give all that info to their oneitis while they say “hey, could i at least get a peek at your pussy now, plz? I dont mind if it dripping with that abusive guy’s semen… Read more »
I’m going to disagree that “George” dropped the ball. It is not a dialectic and it’s not a debate that can be won. “George” remained in his frame and never felt the neediness to try and control others. Seduction works best on hamsters, not debate. He got the word out on the Manosphere and never gave away his credibility. In the long run that is victory. The shaming language did not damage his frame, and guys close to unplugging will see his composure and want answers on getting female affection. Yes, the media will spin, but now they have too… Read more »
Only Minter could have done better.
Thought of a relevant analogy: you guys (the Manosphere) are the MSM to me. Since Day 1 of my posting comments, I’ve never cared about convincing anyone of anything. All I do is spread information. If someone posts about sluts/virgins, I simply explain why their thinking is wrong and explain the Madonna/whore concept. Do I really think I’m going to CONVINCE them of anything? Like that poster is going to go “you know, you’re right, the thought of my mom sucking dick in a bathroom no longer disturbs me”? Of course not lol But there are a handful of lurkers… Read more »
Posts like this make me truly grateful for Rollo’s presence in the manosphere. I am frightened by the thought of the manosphere going mainstream, because I know that it will only be allowed to go mainstream in order to water it down and ridicule it. Know this: you were brought on that show to be ridiculed in order to discredit the manosphere. The manosphere has grown enough and has had a large enough influence that they now have to deal with it. This is phase one. And being anonymous just gave them a freebie. Not that it matters: they could’ve… Read more »
It is probably going to take a long time for any of this to become mainstream but it is encouraging to read the comments on any article in the MSM that touches on gender issues. Someone else mentioned this awhile and it’s true: a few years ago you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of dissenters in the comments of a news article but lately the comments look more like what you would see on a men’s right blog than a mainstream media article. Men (and some women) are starting to wake up and the internet… Read more »
For those that worry about the “anonymous” part of blogging, I understand it. I did political blogging on State and Local issues semi-anonymously for five years. The local newspaper editor knew who I was, and I was eventually “outed.” It was an interesting experience I would think that many in the Manosphere would agree with me that they are following the “Publis” Federalist Papers example. In the beginning of the movement it is more about the ideas than the men behind those ideas. It is easy to attack individual men, or to link sound ideas to the “evil desires” of… Read more »
Yes, showing red-pill stuff in the MSM is hard, but I’m optimistic about it. Even if you don’t get many people on your side that one time, persistently appearing in MSM makes people curious. Is there a better way to go mainstream?
Well the thing is Rollo, you are the best voice amongst us. One could argue that you have dropped the ball by allowing lesser lights stand up when it’d be preferrable you take that position.
@T and A, understood, but the Huff-Po could’ve hit up Roosh or Roissy just as easily as they could me.
My number is in the book.
Same thing I was saying. Why not Roosh or another heavy-hitter?
Mark Rudov was doing this kind of things for years. They only wanted him as a fun villain for the purpose of masturbatory indignation.
I can agree that George held his own, and got some jabs in when he could. You can knitpick, but overall he was pretty good. My analysis of the other characters in the battle: Host- Repeated some typical mainstream viewpoints: “Guys who blog are obviously not masculine” “What are you running some kind of a secret male, shovenistic ring here?’ meehh whatever. Blondie- was trying to fight her hamster at least, and shows some appreciation for aspects of masculinity. She called out the Brunette who tried to say that women don’t like to be led around. Brunette- had quite the… Read more »
Homie held his composure pretty well considering his only role was to be skewered by the Powers That Be. I mean, how does a red pill man even sit there and listen to all of that bullshit for 30 minutes.
“In the beginning of the movement it is more about the ideas than the men behind those ideas. It is easy to attack individual men, or to link sound ideas to the “evil desires” of a singular man.” This. They can’t attack the ideas, because the ideas are solid an based in reality. They want individuals they can attack…being anonymous is extremely powerful right now, it forces them to focus on content and not “that guy is ugly as if he’d know anything about women” or “listen to this out-of-context soundbyte Warren Farell quote about how he supports raping babies!!!!!”… Read more »
I’ve been lurking through these comments for some time now. I still haven’t got laid in about 2 years… and I’m trying to figure out how to rid myself of this conditioning in my brain that’s eating me alive. But anyways, that host guy really got on my nerves. A complete fag. And I never use that word. I can see where Rollo is coming from. I think that “manosphere” guy whoever is name is dropped the ball by simply going on the show. And you could hear the frustrations coming from those other two “betas”. That Nathan guy in… Read more »
[…] It’s Their Game | […]
I’m reminded of the old piece of wisdom that supposedly originated from officials of the Vatican: think a lot, speak rarely and never write anything down! In other words, use available information to your benefit but don’t share it in any way that can be used against you. The dispensers and users of the Red Pill would be wise to remember that.
3MM was right to protect his identity but he just gave those MSM fucktards exactly what they wanted by appearing on that show. Candide and Honcho are right about that.
This is just part of phase one, the opening volley of going mainstream. George did ok considering how hostile the environment was and how the host just let the horrible old cunts drone on forever while constantly clipping him and attacking him. The main value of the interview is in revealing the Feminine Imperative’s default battle tactics. Anyone with a chance to speak on the MSM should watch this (and Roosh on Ukranian TV) because forewarned is forearmed. One little tip – tell a story. When you talk unvarnished theory they cut you off. When you lead into a story… Read more »
I really appreciate the insights and comments that everyone is leaving here. Rollo I’m admittedly a bit confused, you said variously: “As glad as I am to see the manosphere start into break mainstream, the format will always be in a context the feminine imperative can easily digest. Nathan needs to read this… George, you did well, but you’re trying to enlighten people well embedded in the feminine imperative. Roosh predicts that 2013 will be the year the manosphere coes MSM but the MSM is the feminine imperative / my concern is less about the exposure and more about the… Read more »
As I parse Rollo, he’s saying the MSM just wants manosphere guys to be pantomime villains to whip up indignation with. That’s a trap. Rather than play to their script and try to win them over, its better to use the opportunity to hold the frame and win over the lurkers.
The last thing we want is for the manosphere to come off like these PUAs did, so desperate for MSM exposure that they hang themselves: http://tinyurl.com/ccefnfs
@Krause- We get that. But exposure is better than no exposure at all, right?
And not that I care for the Manosphere having exposure since it’s a movement without highly flawed by anonymous bloggers, but it is what it is I guess.
Regarding anonymity, many people become famous under their pick-up/manosphere names without revealing their actual names, although they could be found. A person’s name is only as good as their reputation. Things to consider: if everyone reveals who they are, there are too many targets to take them all down. If no one reveals who they are, “I am 3MM (Spartacus)” is possible. Personally, I’m more in favor of using our real names. Its the fastest way to network. I can’t watch the video as I’m at work, but I give credit to anyone really trying to make a difference. Should… Read more »
I wasn’t speaking of anonymity in name but face. I think that’s what we’re all getting at. No Pick-Up Artist or Game blogger uses his real name. That is already standard procedure. It’s not for anonymous purposes but more to have a cool name I’d say.
A.B. Dada and Mark Minter use their real names. There’s something about it that keeps you honest, I think.
Nothing wrong with keeping your real name. My real name is plastered throughout my blog, Twitter and Facebook. But I just mainly see it guys wanting a cool pseudonym to accompany their persona in this field.
“Rollo, I’m unable to follow what you’re getting at exactly.” “I think George did well, but I think he could’ve gone on the attack more and opened up the discussion to more redpill arguments.” No, he could not have. That is the point. “Anyone who talks to the MSM about this stuff, or even their own female/white-knight friends, should be going in fully expecting to be shit-tested thru the roof with everything from tooling to accusations to armchair diagnoses to attempts to twist words and steal the frame etc.” In a short segment for TV, it is not going to… Read more »
It takes guts to at least get into the ring. But we live in a feminize society where ideas will be shot down or diluted in the ring of the hamster and white knights.
Women only respond to what they feel…that’s why you can’t engage logically with them. What they want is a masculine heart. Decisive, confident, bold, and aggressive. Most men should just strive for those attriubutes to get through this world in general. That’s how you become great…you don’t even need a woman to be a success.
Y’all Manosphere guys are hilarious with this feminist talk. Get over it already! Feminism is BS but it isn’t a big deal. If you don’t like feminists; then fuck them (as in taking them to bed).
Krauser is right.
The MSM is dead, it can’t hold a candle to the content in the blogosphere which is probably why Google disbanded Reader and governments world wide are creating media oversight panels that will include online content.
The MSM is desperate for the male audience (chicks don’t watch the news, thats why they have the lifestyle section) and when Forbes gets 2000 comments on a manosphere topic they know where the audience is at.
Marketers will try to drag the guys in as they know nothing garnishes attention like a good fight.
“One little tip – tell a story. When you talk unvarnished theory they cut you off. When you lead into a story (e.g. the date) they’d look far more socially inept if they cut you off.” This. Big time. I would couch my MMSL example in a story like a friend was in a sexless marriage and we were able to help blah blah. It’s hard to cut someone off when they tell a story, even if it isn’t going anywhere lol “women just assume they are the relationship experts and the men don’t. (…) Perhaps a few good pre-prepared… Read more »
Kudos for George for showing up when obviously the deck was stacked against him. I did notice the cackle by the Dr. when the host was gigging George about his anonymity.
Here’s another MSM article where the manosphere makes an appearance:
From this thread:
I’m not at all surprised by how the community is presented, but you’ve got to admit it’s one of the best MSM articles on the topic I’ve seen to date.
I couldn’t be bothered to spend 30 mins on the thing, so I randomly clicked on bits – when George responds to the Fraggle Rock creature’s assertion that “marriage is all about a life together and so much more than sex” “Absolutely. (blah blah)” I knew I wasn’t missing anything. The correct response should have been “No, Marriage is fundamentally about sex. And having babies. Which needs sex.” And then wait for her comebacks and destroy them in detail. “You lose every battle you don’t enter” The correct action in every circumstance is to discern what the enemy most wants… Read more »
I see the MSM latching onto the Alpha/Beta dichotomy and then using that to shame men even more. Things like, “Only a beta would do X” will replace, “Only a real man would do X.”
“But I just mainly see it guys wanting a cool pseudonym to accompany their persona in this field.” It’s retarded to me that people would even consider expecting the Manosphere/PUAs to use their real names/faces. Once your ideas are attached to your real life persona, you have to censor them so it doesn’t affect your day-to-day life/career/reputation/etc. We can have honest discussions because of our anonymity. I’ve fucked a bunch of married chicks, and because of that I can explain all sorts of shit about attraction, hypergamy, alpha/beta dynamics, the psychology behind backwards rationalization, etc. that can help men. You… Read more »
It’s not retarded. I see no point in using one’s real name, but you’re face: of course! It’s the only way to gain credibility, and this is the Manosphere’s problem, a bunch of anonymous guys giving dating advice yet they aren’t willing to show and prove that they actually live that life.
Whenever a woman talks about wanting a man to be this and be that…it’s basically filtered down to this.
“I want a man to be basically a woman until I want him to be a man. And I determine this by my emotions (or where I’m at in the period of ovulation) at this time.”
Is it any wonder nice guys are confused…or angry at women? Most guys have a default personality and rarely deviate from that.
I found the best way it to cut out the confusion and anger is to live life on my terms…as a man.
Like if I were going on a MSM interview about PUAs, I’d know they’re going to bring up negs and try to frame me as manipulative and encouraging men to be cruel to women. That’s going to happen no matter how well I present myself. It would be insane NOT to have some prepared reframes/explanations for that scenario. Then they’re going to talk about peacocking and fuzzy hats. That will happen, even if I’m dressed in a suit. So it would be silly not to have some responses for that prepared. Going in NOT fully expecting those things to come… Read more »
Agreed here with everything said.
” .. as I take his money and our kids!”
A while back I would never have noticed, but you know it’s funny how I was nodding along, yup, fine, good stuff, cosign, check, roger that .. and then really stubbed my toe on that part.
I can’t recall ever hearing that from a woman (except when she’s confronting another woman .. maybe).
It’s “my kids” all the way, or at best “the kids” (generally when addressing the
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Yeah well, I pay a price for using my name. I am fully prepared to pay it but I don’t say it because of any sense of courage. I am 57 and the reality is that it is far less of a price for me to pay that it would have been for me if I was 29. I don’t have to contend with it being discovered at work. But frankly I don’t want to work in anymore corporations. And frankly at this age, I don’t really want any American woman that would consider me. My next phase in life… Read more »
Dude, I salute you, but there’s no price to pay. That is just a BS excuse by the Manosphere to justify being anonymous. My point overall is this; you can be claiming to be Alpha yet hide yourself under the cloak of anonymity. That’s why I’ve always said, the Manosphere needs a rebranding. It should rid itself of all the anonymous bloggers and do it all over again in essence.
I hadn’t checked RationalMale, so I just looked at 3MM when George posted the links. But watching the video it became clear the anonymity is useful to the MSM. The host could laugh at George being anonymous, manosphere, and not deal with George’s expression. Which makes the viewers feel better about their preconceived notions. Everyone of the participants couched George and hence the Manosphere as misogynist. This came about when the BETA said we should not promote violence towards women, and everyone agreed. Implying that the Manosphere is about that. Though George tried to combat that with we teach men… Read more »
He being the only anonymous guest, and being anonymous period is a dagger in the Manosphere’s coffin. Not really, but it’s a step backwards. You can’t be anonymous (in the media) and claim to be Alpha. Had a real anti-PUA or anti-Manosphere person been on the segment, he or she would chew George up just on the basis of being anonymous.
SocialKenny, I agree completely. I think that was even pointed out by the host of the event.
The question that is out on the twitter sphere is what going to happen… take rule 13 from Alinsky the MSM will “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
If we find a leader, a big if, MSM will find a “victim” of the leader and polarize the issue. We are being labeled before the opening bell.
True about being labeled before the opening bell. I couldn’t have said it better. I’m glad George of 3MM got the opportunity, but Roosh, as much as we have our issues, he would’ve been the most ideal representative.
I agree, its just the first salvo. I am supposed to meet George in June. I don’t know Roosh, but his writing would be picked apart by those opposing the Manosphere. I do believe Dalrock or Rollo would be excellent choices. Though Dalrok with a religious bent would corner us as just conservative frustrated men. Rollo on the other hand is technical and well rounded, it would be hard to corner a scientific approach. Let me check out your blog 🙂
Roosh is supposed to be the king Manospherian so I don’t see him getting picked apart on insights which he’d originated in a sense.
SocialKenny, I think he is the king too, but its his style of writing, his short term view, heck even his “love” of women in DC. That while may be true, within the Matrix this is blasphemy. Does that make sense? The Manosphere should try to present itself as a solution to Dalrocks blogpost. Not a critic of women, and getting them. Everyone that I have sent to Roosh website is turned off by his style and other posts. Again I love Roosh, he is very insightful if you have taken the red pill. On a side note, I made… Read more »
@Boxterpaul- I get you. I’m no Rooshite lol so I agree with you.
Also props to “George” talking about how men improve other aspects of their life through books. But when it comes to woman we are suppose to fly by the seat of our pants? I actually heard that addage a long time ago by “Doc Love” in The System. Bill Gates didn’t go off on a whim hope for the best to create a business…he had a plan and a strategy. Great generals don’t go into war without having an idea about their enemy, the terrian, his troops, and having the ability to make tough decisions. Even sports athletes who have… Read more »
Also I don’t think it will take 3 generations. I see why that comment was made. Feminism really took 3. But we have entered a phase of accelerated technical, social, and even biological evolution. I would think it better now to think in terms of 10 year cohorts instead of generations. I think 1 more 10 year cohort. Young men tend to gravitate to what works sexually. Return of Kings data on internet pages that show access, ranking, states that the readership is 25-35 mostly accessed from home. And young men are in sexual competition far more than older men.… Read more »
I will say this. There was early point where I started using my name. At first it was “mark” for one or two sites. I think Roosh’s site lets you just put in a name and not register. Then most sites allow for Facebook logins. So the first one that auto filled Mark Minter into it, I thought “Fuck it. I am not ashamed to have these opinions. They are based on the truth as near as I can detect it.” And I am quite proud to be affiliated with this movement and all of you. More than I can… Read more »
They frame the debate, but PUA is expert framing-training. Our first couple of appearaces might be a bit rough, but we’ll get it.
Nevertheless, we must be destroyed. When the way in which PUA completely discredits feminism becomes too apparent, they’ll come after us another way. Maybe we’re what women want, and maybe we’re right about that, but we must still be framed as evil.
So they’ll come after us from another angle:
“They frame the debate, but PUA is expert framing-training.” Yup…frame control is a lost art amongst men. The MSM (or women in general) set up some scenario (we teach men to be violent towards women as an example)…and then the guy has to spend the time trying to regroup from the downsides of masculinity. I won’t argue that within males what makes us great is also part of our self-destruction. There is a fine line that must be mastered. But your feminized media only wants to point out male self-destruction and could care less about male self-construction. If “George” or… Read more »
“More than I can say “I wish I knew this stuff sooner”, I can say I wish I knew all of you sooner.”
I think every man in his core knows this stuff…you have a world that brainwashes and shames masculinity to the point that you don’t want to be a man anymore. I wish I found people that said “it’s okay and good to be a man” sooner.
YaReally would also do great in that he strongly exudes “I don’t give a shit” which makes it almost impossible to pin you down. He seems to have no interest in doing it, which can often make you really good at it. Rollo would be great, but we need to keep in mind that the moment you “win” they’ll change the subject entirely. Rollo would be forced to defend the views of others with whom he associates. If he doesn’t agree with those views, he’d have to defend his association with them. If they can’t discredit your ideas, they’ll discredit… Read more »
3MM, You have more courage than I do… if I had heard this exchange from the interview, I would have just hung up on the whole thing… Ann Brenoff: Well, the good news is, I married a nice guy so I, I managed to overcome what I think a lot of women… ..are held back by which is we want the danger we want to believe that we can change someone um that’s so empowering and um I remember rejecting guys just because they were nice to me they were not interesting and uh in hindsight I wasted a lot… Read more »
If there is anything a person should not do when engaging in these debates is to dress down the host, the women, or the white knighters in their folly. They will quickly take the “victimhood” status and you lose. Yareally is right…the best thing you can do is get the information out there for wise men who may not know this even exists. I found MMSL and eventually all the other websites through Hawaiian Libertarian because that’s my political beliefs…and I couldn’t argue against it because everything talked about I saw and lived through. You don’t do it to convince… Read more »
Mark, the honor is ours. You do us a lot of good, collectively and individually.
3MM, I think I might have come across as unduly harsh on you in this post. I do in fact think you did well and I commended you for it, but your example here should serve as a warning for any of the more visibile writers in the manosphere – the feminine imperative will control the message for you, and they’re learning the profitability in encouraging this kind of debate. Regarding anonymity: One of the inherent dangers of becoming the go-to guy on Game or anything that rubs the feminine defined reality the wrong way is that you paint a… Read more »
“The way to my heart is through my brain.” I bet she met a lot of brainiacs through her 20s.
I think the manosphere is better served by being anonymous. It is more than one person, it is collective. We are fighting against what most people believe. People will fight for what they believe. All is fair in love and war but when manospherians expose themselves you can be martyred in the cause. Most times the legend is bigger than the person.
@earl If there is anything a person should not do when engaging in these debates is to dress down the host, the women, or the white knighters in their folly. They will quickly take the “victimhood” status and you lose. You will get no disagreement from me on this point. I do, however, think that victimhood itself should be attacked. Everyone wants to pretend they are victims of their own outcomes rather than agents of it, most people under 35 have been taught this through most of their lives thus far. This is a pillar of their entire strategy, profess… Read more »
“The way to my heart is through my brain.”
That comment made me laugh. I found intellectual conversations with women are a great way to cure them of insomnia.
I’d pretty much avoid television altogether. Nowadays it’s greared completely towards idiots with short attention spans, a waste of time and space. There’s no place in it for honest debate where people are given enough time to explain themselves. It’s a cesspool. There are some exceptions though.
All this talk about ideas and anonymity is making me want to watch V For Vendetta.
i have a feeling that if it were roosh, he would’ve just trolled them.
“The way to my heart is through my brain.”
totally true. women love getting skull-fucked.
It doesn’t matter whether it goes “mainstream”. We are entirely postmodern. Fuck them. Every day the mainstream get a little less so. Everyday, it, and what it was, come under attack from what “is” and what “will be”. Two days ago some company run by Barry Diller got a suit thrown out by the New York Supreme court where Diller’s company has an itty bitty little antennae in a warehouse, claiming it picked broadcast stations, one per antennae per subscriber. Then they streamed the local DTV channels to subscribers online. So, in affect, rather than providing a public showing using… Read more »
With respect to Internet anonymity, I’m pretty sure it will be severely curtailed in the near future, to say the least. There have been more and more propositions to that effect in recent years. Of course, it’ll officially be done to “prevent cyberbullying and online harassment” or something like that. The opponents of online anonymity are numerous and influential: feminists, mainstream politicans, record companies, anyone who’s against internet piracy. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose by curtailing online anonymity or doing away with it. My prediction is that Google and other providers will require you to apply… Read more »
Wow! Sounds like a grim future to me, but I see it happening. The amount of bullshit changes Google has embarked on over the past 8 months is ridiculous!
“Consider this as a victory though, even the “Clinical Psychologist” admitted that women want the bad boy. And it was the whole “frame” of the article.”
even the “Clinical Psychologist” admitted. Consider that this does not carry the benefits you perceive. Specifically,
“For one, the psychologist strongly agreed with a number of my key points.”
Did she “agree with your key points”, or only with the premise in regards to “In girl-world, women are the sole arbiters of relationship wisdoms – men are simply foils for their legitimacy”?
@ Hoellenhund: And considering that the Federalist Papers that argued for the ratification of our Constitution were published anonymously, banning online anonymity would be almost a poetic way to end our freedoms.
The correct response should have been “No, Marriage is fundamentally about sex. And having babies. Which needs sex.”
And then wait for her comebacks and destroy them in detail.
It doesn’t work that way when everyone else in the ‘debate” are against you. Anything you say that steps over the line will be immediately shouted down. You have to be s sneaky fucker to get your point across when no one wants to hear what you have to say.
Well said Jeremy. We’re living in a time when claiming victim is a reflex for so many. It’s epidemic passive-aggressiveness, and it does have rewards, both socially and monetarily… but at the expense of pride, the ability to think objectively, and the system as a whole. To mix metaphors: in mental hygiene, it’s the high-fructose option. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Personal responsibility is key. Much discourse these days seems to be preoccupied, ostensibly, with the pursuit of Fairness. But Fairness and Truth do not always coincide, and so very few are able to step far enough outside their… Read more »
@ Höllenhund thanks for the good link
Dr. Jordan Peterson is a beacon of reason and many here will appreciate him. Not only for his perspectives that relate to this sphere, but for his broader and deeper work.
Dude, I salute you, but there’s no price to pay. That is just a BS excuse by the Manosphere to justify being anonymous.
If you ever manage to piss off the wrong person you will learn just how wrong this is.
@3MM, have a look at Krauser’s appearance on London Real here: https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/london-real/ This may help you prepare for any follow up you do with the Huff-Po. Krauser is very controlled and anticipates the direction of the conversation before the host(s) drive to where he knows they’ll take discussion. Granted he’s in some friendly territory here, but this is the collectiveness you need. Understand that you’ll only have a fraction of the time the women will get to make their points, so make them count with cogent, prepared, points of your own. Maybe you did this while you were on, but… Read more »
Roosh should be the spokesman for the manosphere?
Would you ask someone to take a big bite of a ghost pepper to try to get them accustomed to spicy foods?
@Chuck- Clarify your analogy.
[…] wisely admonishes those who will be drawing media attention as the androsphere begins to command mainstream attention… Photo credit: Lucag / Foter.com / […]
I was just over on Heartiste and Kate went toe to toe with Matthew King. She gets my admiration forever for doing that.
One of you marrying kind of guys ought to marry her. I have seen her picture. She is blond and attractive.
HuffPo is for cunts, just like the rest of the MSM. It’s a feminist circle jerk and echo chamber. Fuck ’em all.
A good spokesman would…
-actually care about the improvement of America/society
-garner sympathy because of an unfortunate situation where the system knocked him out
-have little ego
WF Price probably fits this profile best.
It would be easier to write off the entire manosphere if I were pushed to the front, mostly due to all my written baggage. Probably same for Heartiste, which is a shame because his arguments are most deadly.
Dalrock is going to get a lot of attention. He gives our ideas an academic feel of approval.
Manosphere bloggers doing interviews or TV with the MSM should expect to be treated the same way a GOP presidential candidate would be treated — they’re not interested in finding out what you stand for so their audience can be better informed, they’re interested in smearing you so that their audience will reject everything you stand for.
The only somewhat “red pill” guy I can think of who works for a major media outlet is James Taranto of the WSJ. Everyone else takes the female point of view vis-a-vis sex and relationships as unquestionable gospel.
He’s one of those MRA spearhead guys.
In the end, you are the spokesman for the Manosphere.
According to data on Alexa, Return of Kings has the largest readership of the main blogs. It is the most ambitious project to date to gather a variety of authors under the same masthead. And is an attempt to mainstream and legitimize the ideas of the movement.
It is no secret, my affection for this blog here. But to me, no one has done more for men than the Roosh brand.
Rollo, that Krauser interview was in more than just a friendly environment with two guys of similar age as him, he was the only one there and had near carte blanche to steer the discussion. As you rightly noted earlier in the thread, 3MM had to share the forum with a feminized host, an ugly 50 something manbeast, a dance mom psychologist, a total white knight, and a sheepish chubby guy. The amount of chaos (multitudes of directions) where the argument would go, the slings and arrows from multiple participants, and the inability to even get words into the discussion… Read more »
Oh, Mark. lol They’ve seen me and they’re not impressed 😉 Thank you all the same for the very sweet sentiment. As far as online sparring matches, I hate them. It takes a special bond to survive them. I hesitate to even suggest this because I don’t want it to sound like selling out, but don’t discount women as allies or marketers for you. I’m sure there are quite a few who are willing to do whatever they can to help. Their name shall be: Henrietta the Homemaker. Henrietta is the feminine of Henry and means “ruler of the home”… Read more »
@3MM, have a look at Krauser’s appearance on London Real here:
LoL I think the two situations are so vastly different as to make your comparison devoid of any meaning Rollo. I’m an obvious fan of Krauser, but you’re going to have to come up with a much better example than that.
So true it’s almost painful. Women will send a man down in flames to protect the power of their ‘mystique’.
@ Retrenched: Glenn Reynolds, who does instapundit.com, does a column for USA Today. He’s linked to Roissy and Vox Day a few times each.
He also mentions hypergamy quite a bit in his instapundit blurbs. His wife is Dr. Helen who focuses on men’s rights issues.
The key is to go into these MSM spots with a specific goal and a specific target audience in mind. The red pill takes time to swallow – more than one writer has likened unplugging to the 5 stages of grief; it’s a long process that takes some introspection. The red pill’s strength is that it maps to real, revealed preferences and actual behavior. Appreciating this takes a certain base of life experience and reflection. To expect full conversions based on one minute of talking as part of a hostile panel discussion is unreasonable. The MSM is terrified of these… Read more »
Would you ask someone to take a big bite of a ghost pepper to try to get them accustomed to spicy foods?
i once got a girl to try pepper sauce made from scotch bonnets, i told her it was ‘salsa with a bit of kick, kinda like you’.
did eventually get the bang after her taste buds regenerated a week later.
@ frigidnorth “Being called out for your anonymity is a great chance to present the manosphere as ‘forbidden knowledge’ and trade on the seductive allure of dangerous truths.”
It’s also a good way to call attention to their contradictions. If we’re actually oppressors, then why do WE have to be anonymous? If they were right about us, then Amanda Marcotte & Jessica Wakeman would be the ones using pseudonyms.
3MM, I’m not trying to patronize you. Yes, Krauser is on friendly territory, but notice his degree of preparedness for the interview. If that’s the degree needed to make cogent points in friendly territory, how much tighter do you need to be when you’re playing in the feminine imperative’s territory? As I stated in my post and in my comments, I’m glad you’re putting yourself on the line and I think you did a fantastic job given the context you were forced into. I’m not saying you should’ve turned it down or really done anything differently under the circumstances. I’m… Read more »
3MM didn’t get time to prepared for the interview. That’s the difference.
“but Roosh, as much as we have our issues, he would’ve been the most ideal representative.” lol. Yes, a guy who basically comes across as a dirty hippy that has to fly across the world to take advantage of poor destitute foreign women because he can’t manage a successful relationship with strong independent real North American women and who’s written a book titled Bang on how to buy foreign hookers. Ya, I can’t see any way THAT could be turned around by the MSM to make the Manosphere look bad (not that this is the actual case, but this is… Read more »
Roissy I can’t stand with an ounce of me. Roosh just pretends I believe. Roissy really believes his shit as far as his political rhetoric.
You should have just read ‘The Sixteen Commandments of Poon’ and called it a day.
@YaReally: That was about as concise and comprehensive as a blog comment on this topic could ever possibly be. I said earlier that you would be perfect for this, and I was right. As far as the shitting on married women thing goes, I’m sure you could re-frame it somehow, but if you don’t think you could pull it off, you gotta help train whoever goes instead. PUA is the key to winning this thing. First, the PUA’s success in and of itself disproves feminism. Second, learning PUA is learning how to frame, manipulate, and sell. It’s the same thing… Read more »
“So when you extrapolate that to a larger context it’s easy to see how the feminine imperative will readily use men’s default lack of legitimacy for its own purpose. The greatest Threat to the Feminine Imperative is men becoming self-aware of their own sexual market value and the dissemination of information about how the imperative uses this lack of awareness to perpetuate itself. “The first recourse to prevent this is male-specific ridicule and derision for even attempting to explain the social constructs of the feminine imperative.” …a funny thing about this statement by Rollo is that when I’ve wondered to… Read more »
On a somewhat unrelated note- if you want to see what western men have become, check out the movie Liberal Arts. Spoiler alert! A 35 year old man turns down a virginal 19 year old hottie to bang his 50 something scotch swilling battleax ex professor, and finally ends up with a somewhat homely “age appropriate” (he actually uses those words) librarian. The highlight of the movie was when the professor literally kicks him out of bed after sex. I have had a few dating moments that I’m not proud of, but never in my life have I turned down… Read more »
@Chuck- Clarify your analogy.
This is a fight to the death make no mistake about it. This wasn’t a battle nor a skirmish. Not even a fray, melee or scuffle. Just the merest hint of a tiff. When they turn their full guns on the manosphere, and everyone can be sure its coming, they will be ruthless. Just look at how politicians and criminals are looked at in the MSM as an indication of how it will go down. And they won’t be necessarily turning their guns to the strongest first to discredit and frame. Any qualms or second thoughts, any skeletons in the… Read more »