It’s Their Game


As glad as I am to see George from 3rd Millenium Man grab the manopshere colors and go to the front lines, I’ll admit I’m a little disappointed with this. Roosh has predicted 2013 will be the year the manosphere goes mainstream, but my concern is less about the exposure and more about the representation. The MSM is the feminine imperative.

I understand the host here is contracted to the Huff-Po so the context begins in terms of what entertains women’s need for indignation. No indignation, no audience. George is hamstrung from the outset: we have the ubiquitous 50+, “I’m ok with the beta provider I married after fucking my spell of bad boys and learned my lesson so you gals should learn from my mistakes” woman (aka the Aunt Giggles, Kay Hymowitz archetype). Next we have the prerequisite “clinical psychologist” who looks like one of the mothers on Dance Moms, and rattles off the feel good humanist psychology truisms clichéd in the 1990’s. After that we have Nathan the self-identified White Knight who’s only purpose is to bolster both women’s feeble positions to better identify with any woman in the hopes that she might be watching and, God willing, anonymously seek him out to potentially hook up with him for being such a team player.

That’s a tough cast to work with so I will commend George on his effort, however, his dropping the ball here is less about his grasp of red-pill wisdom (I know and read his blog regularly), and more about the context that the MSM will allow the manosphere to be represented in. Learn this now red-pill literati before you venture into the MSM – the feminine imperative will gladly make you the red meat for the indignation that sells their advertising to women.

As I said, Roosh predicts that the manosphere will surface in the MSM this year, and I will concur, the manosphere will come to the attention of the greater whole of western society, but don’t think for minute it will be for the positive. With any luck it will reach out to a few blue pill men ready to realize the truth, but my trepidation is about the overall image the manosphere will be molded to by the Feminine Imperative. Men are simply not allowed to have any legitimate insight into intergender dynamics – as I’m sure George is realizing now. In girl-world, women are the sole arbiters of relationship wisdoms – men are simply foils for their legitimacy, even in the best of pretenses.

I don’t write too much specifically about the manosphere with good reason – the ‘enlightenment’ is still evolving. As I’ve been quoted many times before, unplugging guys from the Matrix is dirty work. It’s triage, and the greater majority of men aren’t ready or even in a mental position to be unplugged when you’re in a personal, one-on-one context. So when you extrapolate that to a larger context it’s easy to see how the feminine imperative will readily use men’s default lack of legitimacy for its own purpose. The greatest Threat to the Feminine Imperative is men becoming self-aware of their own sexual market value and the dissemination of information about how the imperative uses this lack of awareness to perpetuate itself.

The first recourse to prevent this is male-specific ridicule and derision for even attempting to explain the social constructs of the feminine imperative.

In a large public forum like this Huff-Po video we don’t see the underlying feminine social urgency and anxiety about men becoming aware of the mechanisms of the feminine imperative because for decades women’s unknowability has become synonymous with the feminine mystique. So it’s made laughable by default that any man would have a legitimate understanding of women – they are just unknowable, so men’s perspectives and insight about the psychology of women starts from a position of ridicule, even when it patronizingly agrees with women’s perspectives.

But underneath the Dance Mom psychological snark, underneath the accusatory tones 50+ woman uses to burn interview time, underneath the attempts at hopeful beta white knight feminine identification, even in the overall context the host uses to broach the topic, red pill men can see the nervous tension of the possibility of the rational exposure of the underpinnings of the feminine imperative.

When you’re in an isolated social setting, it’s a dangerous topic to venture into – like religion or politics – but you can make an effort without too much social repercussion. You can speak red pill truth and endure the wrath of women (who’ll likely fuck you after the fact) and white knights, but you’ll make a point. You may even open the eyes of a few men. However, the larger, meta-scale feminine narrative will use and distort your red pill awareness to make advertisers rich.

Women sustain themselves on indignation and nothing stimulates that better than a man who publicly declares he knows how women think. The Atlantic has made a very profitable business model for a dying form of media based solely upon this feminine-satisfying indignation. This host, the Huff-Po, are simply following the model. So yes, Roosh is right, the manosphere will go mainstream this year, to the overwhelming adulation of the media that’s discovered this type of feminine imperative indignation is extremely profitable.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

280 comments on “It’s Their Game

  1. Rollo, I’m unable to follow what you’re getting at exactly. I’m no huge fan of 3MM, and I’m yet to check out the interview, but you said he dropped the ball (George) but in what sense?

  2. I think George did well, but I think he could’ve gone on the attack more and opened up the discussion to more redpill arguments. It was just hard because it was basically 4 on 1 with the even host jumping up to ridicule him and he didn’t get much speaking time.

    I don’t think it matters whether the MSM embraces the redpill or not. Speaking as a semi-recent college grad (almost 3 years ago), young adults these days who witnessed hook up culture are pretty redpilled already. This is the generation that refuses to identify as feminists and embraces Tucker Max and co. They haven’t swallowed the pill in its entirety but it will come with time. When they run the show 10-20 years from now, MSM will change.

  3. Kenny, the host is questioning 3MM about why he is the only anonymous participant, and says something to the effect of ‘Isn’t that women’s problem with men? it seems like such a pussy way to do things, plotting and scheming…’

    Read : Creepy, pussy. Frame goes bye-bye.

    3MM doesn’t have much of a rejoinder.

    Still, respect for making an effort.

    1. I have no recollection of pussy ever being used. Can you give us the exact point that was said?

      I had made the point that I was keeping peoples’ identities private. I could have further explained, and had done so prior to the show, but that was just part of it.

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  5. @Vicomte- As much as I’m against Manosphere bloggers who remain anonymous, if there was a moment for the Manosphere to go mainstream it was 3MM’s shot. Being the only anonymous person on the segment sort of kills it. But better than nothing I guess.

  6. Anything on the redpill/manosphere brought to mainstream media will be filtered and changed to cater to the target audience.

    What you’ll be seeing is the promoting of the light version.

  7. That was pretty painful, but good on 3MM for trying. It came off like kind of a blindsiding of “oh I thought I’d get a chance to share my view but it turns out they just wanted a villain for everyone to rally against” (cue the blonde-about-to-hit-the-wall jumping in with supportive laughter at the host’s pussy comment).

    Anyone who talks to the MSM about this stuff, or even their own female/white-knight friends, should be going in fully expecting to be shit-tested thru the roof with everything from tooling to accusations to armchair diagnoses to attempts to twist words and steal the frame etc. If you’re not prepared for that, you’re going to get raped.

    It’s a tightrope act where one slip up means they get to classify you exactly how they wanted to from the start…your performance has to be absolutely flawless, and even THEN at BEST they’ll begrudgingly accept that you might have a point about “some” things, but won’t be sucking your dick on-air.

    It’s like an MRA who gets goaded into a shouting match with a feminist. The instant he’s noticeably riled up she gets to go “SEE?? They hate women jus like we said! Why are you being so meeeeean to me??? 🙁 :'(“. You’re toast the second you flinch, like a 10 disqualifying you at the bar because you showed a micro-second of insecurity when she shit-tested you.

    I think if the Manosphere goes public, the emphasis should be on spreading word that it exists and links to the resources, instead of focusing on trying to debate or convince the MSM/masses of anything. Out there are men who have no idea the red pill exists but they know something is off with their blue pill world…as long as people representing the Manosphere can focus on “cool, you can all think I’m retarded, but for the men who are curious out there, come check it out and make your own decision”, we’ll get more men to swallow the pill…because a guy who’s ready to swallow the pill is already at a point where he’s thinking “ya, ya, I know, MSM, this stuff is creepy and lame and pussy, you tell me that every day…….but i’mma check it out all the same cause what you’re telling me doesn’t seem to add up, don’t worry I won’t convert I just want to see what the this is about…..” and then they read shit that actually lines up with their actual life experience and there’s no going back.

    I mean what are you going to do? Get into a brilliant live debate with those HuffPost people that convinces them all to shit all over the blue pill? Like the blonde is going to go “you know you’re right, I sucked a LOT of dick in bar bathrooms back in my day but now that I’m getting ugly I’m looking to lure a helpless beta Provider into a legal arrangement where I have carte blanche to make him a slave while I fuck the poolboy, and if he gives me hassle I’ll just claim he was abusive and raped me as I take his money and our kids!”

    And then the host is going to go “ya that’s reasonable, I myself had to hire a hooker the other day because I spent the last 3 years of my life in a sexless marriage raising a son I’m not sure is even my own.”? And the uggo is going to be all “when you say “do it for her”, you mean like choke-fucks her in the ass right? Because my current husband is a wimp and my pussy has been dry for years, and play-raping being used like a dirty cum-whore now and then is important to me in a relationship but its cool, my hypergamy has me chasing my best friend’s asshole husband and fucking him and his buddies behind everyone’s back!”

    Now that’s a segment I’d watch lol but seriously, you will never ever ever win going AGAINST the MSM. Would putting your face on camera so you can get harassed in real life for going against the blue pill do ANYTHING to change the end result of that segment? Fuck no…because it was unwinnable from the start. Being anonymous just lobbed them a nice easy shit-test pitch to knock out of the park. Even if you we’re prepared for it with a witty little cocky/funny response to that, like a hot girl testing you in various ways for congruency they would just look for the next thing to shit-test you on, which is why I say you would need to run a flawless performance start to end to get anywhere.

    The PUA community learned this already, there’s a reason we’re still pretty underground and happy with that status…because we learned that giving men access to the information is all we can do. 90% of people will flat-out ridicule the notion that this kind of psychology can even BE understood let alone thoroughly deconstructed…but that 10%, when they find it, will go “wow this explains SO much of my life that has been confusing to me listening to the blue pill people”.

    Slow & steady wins the race. It’ll be a couple more generations before the red pill is commonplace among men, but it’ll happen. Can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube and all that. Side-step the villain frame they set for you and just use media time to promote access to the resources. You think any man trapped in an incel marriage WOULDN’T at least check out MMSL if he heard on TV that it existed? Even if feminists grabbed him by the balls, he would grit his teeth thru the pain to read what MMSL has to say.

    We don’t have to convince or change the MSM. Society will do that for us when enough men have taken the red pill.

  8. The anonymity is an important issue. How many times has the messenger being killed for doing his job? You are not only dealing with angry ugly fat and old feminists and their indignation; you also deal with their enablers. They are lawyers, bankers, teachers, journalists, detectives, hackers, politicians, etc. These white knights will jump at the chance to reveal George’s identity to the smallest details. Then give all that info to their oneitis while they say “hey, could i at least get a peek at your pussy now, plz? I dont mind if it dripping with that abusive guy’s semen you whine about every night on the phone for 2 hours. pretty plz?” with their body language.

  9. I’m going to disagree that “George” dropped the ball. It is not a dialectic and it’s not a debate that can be won. “George” remained in his frame and never felt the neediness to try and control others. Seduction works best on hamsters, not debate. He got the word out on the Manosphere and never gave away his credibility. In the long run that is victory. The shaming language did not damage his frame, and guys close to unplugging will see his composure and want answers on getting female affection. Yes, the media will spin, but now they have too acknowlege us because we are that big. Per Rules for Radicals, we are winning! We only need a guest on their media to beat them over the head with their own rule book, with their own female imperative and mystique. I am sure it can be done because cultural revolutions have happened repeatedly in history. Women say they want guys who treat them respectfully and give their best reproductive services to guys who don’t. Beat them over the head. Women are supposed to be unknowable, yet some guys have women like candy because they know how to get their best charms for nearly free. Equal judgement? Equal voters? Beat them over the head with their own rulebook.

  10. Thought of a relevant analogy: you guys (the Manosphere) are the MSM to me.

    Since Day 1 of my posting comments, I’ve never cared about convincing anyone of anything. All I do is spread information.

    If someone posts about sluts/virgins, I simply explain why their thinking is wrong and explain the Madonna/whore concept. Do I really think I’m going to CONVINCE them of anything? Like that poster is going to go “you know, you’re right, the thought of my mom sucking dick in a bathroom no longer disturbs me”? Of course not lol But there are a handful of lurkers who aren’t as ego-invested in the discussion who will read my explanation and go “hmmm this guy raises some good points.”

    Do I care if that guy changes his thinking? Do I care what he thinks of PUAs? No, it’s his dick he can think whatever he wants…all I’m doing is promoting the solid information we’ve gathered in the field and trusting men to have their own capacity for rational thinking.

    I link Tyler’s RSD videos all the fucking time. Why? Because the information in them is solid. You can think Tyler is weird, you can think I suck his dick, you can think I’m a piece of shit, there can be 20 replies to one of my comments saying “fuck you, PUA-fag”…but none of that changes the fact that when other guys read my comments or watch his videos, they go “you know, I don’t really LIKE this person…but damned if what they’re saying doesn’t make sense.”

    I don’t care if you guys don’t like me because it’s not relevant, it doesn’t affect the validity of the information I provide. Do I think guys like xsplat or King A are ever going to go “god yareally, you’ve shown me the error in my thinking and now we’re BFFs”? lol no, but I’ll bet there are a few hundred lurkers who’ve read my comments to them who’ve come away going “okay I’m going to pay attention to this yareally guy and watch some of these RSD videos” and are on their way to handling their shit.

    Imagine if that HuffPro piece had gone like this: “ya, we have this thing called the Manosphere where we gather to discuss these issues, like a lot of men are trapped in sexless marriages where they love their wives but the spark in the bedroom has died and they only have sex a few times a year…if you Google for one of our blogs called “married man sex life”, you’ll find we have a huge resource with an action plan for helping those men get their sex life back on track with their wives.”

    Even if the announcer cut you off after that and all the feminists and white knights on the show ranted and raved for the next hour about what a loser you are…do you think there aren’t a few thousand men who would go “wait, what?? I’m not the only one this happened to?? And there’s an action plan to get my wife to put out??? Holy shit I HAVE to at least look into this…” and Google their way there? Even if you have to couch it in blue-pill terms to get the air-time and get people to look at it, once you’re there the information’s validity does the rest.

    Tyler named his company “Real Social Dynamics” back in like 2002 before it was even big, because he knew that would be more digestible to the masses than “Get Pussy Incorporated”. So guys go “well I’m not a loser and I don’t want to manipulate people like those Get Pussy companies advocate…but I’m interested in understanding these “social dynamics” things, that doesn’t sound villainous”. Then they watch some content that hits them dead-on because they relate to it and from there it starts.

    If I cared about the Manosphere going public in a digestible way, I would focus 100% on promoting MMSL because the rest of the sphere is hard for normal blue pill men to relate to and they’re going to be more skeptical of it because they can’t think of hypergamous situations or don’t have experience fucking war brides, or traveling to EE to fuck poor foreign women…

    BUT, pretty much every married man that exists, has had his wife turn down sex either a few times or constantly for years until they quit asking for it…there’s this huuuuuge sub-set of incel married men who would jump on the MMSL info if they were made aware it existed and was something that could be fixed. That’s the ticket into the mainstream right there that’s going to hit the biggest audience and cause the biggest ripple effect.

    Put the information out there, give men access to the resources, then trust that they can discern truth from social conditioning.

    You can piss on a woman and tell her it’s raining and even if she sees you’re pissing on her, if believing it’s rain makes her less sad her hamster will convince her that your dick shoots out rain. But a man who realizes you’re pissing on him will go “hey fuck you dude, don’t try to tell me that’s rain, I’m not fucking stupid!” I think a part of why men are often so anti-red-pill is that they know that as a man, once they know something and accept it, they can’t UN-know it, no matter how bad they want to or how much it hurts or how much of their life is going to have to be overhauled as a result of this new paradigm…so it’s better to vehemently reject it before exploring it. How much easier would life be to drop the winning touchdown pass and live an average normal life than to catch it and deal with fame and expectations and have paparazzi and scandals and no privacy etc the rest of your life?

  11. Posts like this make me truly grateful for Rollo’s presence in the manosphere. I am frightened by the thought of the manosphere going mainstream, because I know that it will only be allowed to go mainstream in order to water it down and ridicule it.

    Know this: you were brought on that show to be ridiculed in order to discredit the manosphere. The manosphere has grown enough and has had a large enough influence that they now have to deal with it. This is phase one. And being anonymous just gave them a freebie. Not that it matters: they could’ve taken one of a hundred different posts and laughed at it like they did your eye-fucking one(which is great advice to us in the know).

    As an aside, hearing those ladies drone on was near unbearable. I haven’t watched TV in years, so I had almost forgotten that airheads that like are allowed air time. Seriously, most of their arguments were simply emphasizing buzz words (“It’s about honesty, It’s about togetherness…”). There was absolutely no substance at all. I just wanna go on that show and repeat whatever one of the women say back to them after running a quick find/replace algorithm:

    “It’s about my cock. In your ass.”

    And the other lady admitted she spent her youth in bars chasing bad boys. And her husband had weekly friend-date-nights in which he listened to her talk about her problems with her latest guy. And after a few years of this he got the prize of marrying her. And that’s how it should work out happily ever after? YEAH YOU SURE SOLD ME ON BEING A NICE GUY.

  12. It is probably going to take a long time for any of this to become mainstream but it is encouraging to read the comments on any article in the MSM that touches on gender issues. Someone else mentioned this awhile and it’s true: a few years ago you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of dissenters in the comments of a news article but lately the comments look more like what you would see on a men’s right blog than a mainstream media article.

    Men (and some women) are starting to wake up and the internet has helped spread the word at an exponential rate.

  13. For those that worry about the “anonymous” part of blogging, I understand it. I did political blogging on State and Local issues semi-anonymously for five years. The local newspaper editor knew who I was, and I was eventually “outed.” It was an interesting experience

    I would think that many in the Manosphere would agree with me that they are following the “Publis” Federalist Papers example.

    In the beginning of the movement it is more about the ideas than the men behind those ideas. It is easy to attack individual men, or to link sound ideas to the “evil desires” of a singular man.

    As the ideas mature, then the “founding fathers” of the Manosphere can be known….but for now, the ideas need to mature and spread.

  14. Yes, showing red-pill stuff in the MSM is hard, but I’m optimistic about it. Even if you don’t get many people on your side that one time, persistently appearing in MSM makes people curious. Is there a better way to go mainstream?

  15. Well the thing is Rollo, you are the best voice amongst us. One could argue that you have dropped the ball by allowing lesser lights stand up when it’d be preferrable you take that position.

  16. Mark Rudov was doing this kind of things for years. They only wanted him as a fun villain for the purpose of masturbatory indignation.

  17. I can agree that George held his own, and got some jabs in when he could. You can knitpick, but overall he was pretty good.

    My analysis of the other characters in the battle:
    Host- Repeated some typical mainstream viewpoints: “Guys who blog are obviously not masculine” “What are you running some kind of a secret male, shovenistic ring here?’ meehh whatever.

    Blondie- was trying to fight her hamster at least, and shows some appreciation for aspects of masculinity. She called out the Brunette who tried to say that women don’t like to be led around.

    Brunette- had quite the hamster wheel running the whole time. I’m no historian but I’d venture to say we could reconstruct a pretty long slutty phase in her past before marrying her white knight.

    Nathan- I’m sure he had awesome, missionary style sex in the dark with his girlfriend after that courageous encounter with the masculine imperative

    Rob- Can someone in his hood please find him and take him out for drinks??? Christ almighty.

  18. Homie held his composure pretty well considering his only role was to be skewered by the Powers That Be. I mean, how does a red pill man even sit there and listen to all of that bullshit for 30 minutes.

  19. “In the beginning of the movement it is more about the ideas than the men behind those ideas. It is easy to attack individual men, or to link sound ideas to the “evil desires” of a singular man.”

    This. They can’t attack the ideas, because the ideas are solid an based in reality. They want individuals they can attack…being anonymous is extremely powerful right now, it forces them to focus on content and not “that guy is ugly as if he’d know anything about women” or “listen to this out-of-context soundbyte Warren Farell quote about how he supports raping babies!!!!!”

    I just wanted to add that regardless of how the actual show went, your handling of posting the video is fucking beautiful. The links to articles about specific topics is exactly what I mean by providing men access to the information.

    Like you could’ve just posted the video, and that’s alright, or you could have your front-pahe article be “HOW TO PUNISH A CHEATING WHORE!!!!”, which would have just confirmed everyone’s bias…but the way you’ve broken the video down into a bunch of issues…whether you got to discuss them in-depth or not, ANY guy hitting up your website is stumbling right into a beautiful Ration Male Year One red-pill information dump and you hook them right away with the way you link the articles in paragraphs instead of having like, a laundry-list of them.

    Anyone checking 3MM after seeing it linked in that discussion, even if you didn’t wow them on the show, would find it pretty much impossible NOT to click at least one of those articles and start through the gateway to more. That’s exactly what the Manosphere needs, provide the information and let the curious check it out. I wouldn’t even update your blog for a couple weeks while this video gets passed around, so as not to push that post down past people’s attention spans.

    Anyway just wanted to give you props on that!

  20. I’ve been lurking through these comments for some time now. I still haven’t got laid in about 2 years… and I’m trying to figure out how to rid myself of this conditioning in my brain that’s eating me alive.

    But anyways, that host guy really got on my nerves. A complete fag. And I never use that word. I can see where Rollo is coming from. I think that “manosphere” guy whoever is name is dropped the ball by simply going on the show. And you could hear the frustrations coming from those other two “betas”. That Nathan guy in particular was not ready to hear what the manosphere has to say.

    I don’t know how long it will take me to become the man I’ve always wanted to become. I dream of having successes as a filmmaker… making commercials, saving money to fund my first feature film, fly to paris and the hottest french girls I wanna fuck. These are my dreams… and at least I’m glad I know how to sense bullshit when I see it. That’s why i’ve spent more hours reading through these blogs, because they all spoke to me very deeply when I first ran across them.

    I had a conversation with my friend and manager about these topics… well, sorta. I told him how I felt about feminism and how I thought it was all bullshit. He got so offended. I mean, he really got mad. Well, my friend is this host right here. Why is it such a bad thing for a man to better himself? There are so many magazines, books, and communities aimed towards women to better themselves and its totally fine and acceptable, yet when a man makes any single effort to better himself he’s ridiculed? If I could ask that host, I’d ask him what difference is it for a man like your guests Nathan or Robert to go on your show and figure out how to attract women, yet they’re not allowed to go to other sources like the manosphere, who are coached by other men who have gone through those same emotions and experiences encouraging them to become better people? Even if its not “genuine” at some point he’s going to have to learn to adapt these traits.

  21. I’m reminded of the old piece of wisdom that supposedly originated from officials of the Vatican: think a lot, speak rarely and never write anything down! In other words, use available information to your benefit but don’t share it in any way that can be used against you. The dispensers and users of the Red Pill would be wise to remember that.

    3MM was right to protect his identity but he just gave those MSM fucktards exactly what they wanted by appearing on that show. Candide and Honcho are right about that.

  22. This is just part of phase one, the opening volley of going mainstream. George did ok considering how hostile the environment was and how the host just let the horrible old cunts drone on forever while constantly clipping him and attacking him. The main value of the interview is in revealing the Feminine Imperative’s default battle tactics. Anyone with a chance to speak on the MSM should watch this (and Roosh on Ukranian TV) because forewarned is forearmed.

    One little tip – tell a story. When you talk unvarnished theory they cut you off. When you lead into a story (e.g. the date) they’d look far more socially inept if they cut you off.

    Agreed with Rollo that the women just assume they are the relationship experts and the men don’t. That’s voluntarily surrending the frame, defering to them and putting points out tentatively. Perhaps a few good pre-prepared rejoinders for this would be helpful, little negs that chip away the women’s perceived expertise and get them qualifying.

    And I agree with YaReally – talk to the audience, not to the other guests.

  23. @YaReally

    Like the blonde is going to go “you know you’re right, I sucked a LOT of dick in bar bathrooms back in my day […]” And then the host is going to go “ya that’s reasonable, I myself had to hire a hooker the other day […]” And the uggo is going to be all “when you say “do it for her”, you mean like choke-fucks her in the ass right?[…]”

    LMFAO. Well-written.

  24. I really appreciate the insights and comments that everyone is leaving here.

    Rollo I’m admittedly a bit confused, you said variously:

    “As glad as I am to see the manosphere start into break mainstream, the format will always be in a context the feminine imperative can easily digest. Nathan needs to read this… George, you did well, but you’re trying to enlighten people well embedded in the feminine imperative. Roosh predicts that 2013 will be the year the manosphere coes MSM but the MSM is the feminine imperative /

    my concern is less about the exposure and more about the representation. The MSM is the feminine imperative. I understand the host here is contracted to the Huff-Po so the context begins in terms of what entertains women’s need for indignation. No indignation, no audience. George is hamstrung from the outset: we have the ubiquitous 50+, “I’m ok with the beta provider I married after fucking my spell of bad boys and learned my lesson so you gals should learn from my mistakes” woman (aka the Aunt Giggles, Kay Hymowitz archetype). Next we have the prerequisite “clinical psychologist” who looks like one of the mothers on Dance Moms… That’s a tough cast to work with so I will commend George on his effort, however, his dropping the ball here is less about his grasp of red-pill wisdom (I know and read his blog regularly), and more about the context that the MSM will allow the manosphere to be represented in.”

    So are you happy or not that the Manosphere was represented on the show or not? Based on your last above comment, is the problem that you wanted to be on the show instead? I’m just trying to make sense of what your actual issue here is (and like I say on my site, I’ve been a fan of yours for a long time).

    As I said in reply to your first comments above: Thanks for the compliment Rollo. HuffPost have actually provided really good feedback on the segment and invited me on again. I think the situation’s far better than you’re making out. For one, the psychologist strongly agreed with a number of my key points.

    You lose every battle you don’t enter. Sure I fought it on their territory, but you know what else I could have done? Taken all the glory myself and not spoken at all about the Manosphere. I didn’t have to do that. But I wanted to raise its profile and continue giving back to the community that has helped me grow so much.

  25. As I parse Rollo, he’s saying the MSM just wants manosphere guys to be pantomime villains to whip up indignation with. That’s a trap. Rather than play to their script and try to win them over, its better to use the opportunity to hold the frame and win over the lurkers.

    The last thing we want is for the manosphere to come off like these PUAs did, so desperate for MSM exposure that they hang themselves:

    1. @Krause- We get that. But exposure is better than no exposure at all, right?

      And not that I care for the Manosphere having exposure since it’s a movement without highly flawed by anonymous bloggers, but it is what it is I guess.

  26. Regarding anonymity, many people become famous under their pick-up/manosphere names without revealing their actual names, although they could be found. A person’s name is only as good as their reputation.

    Things to consider: if everyone reveals who they are, there are too many targets to take them all down. If no one reveals who they are, “I am 3MM (Spartacus)” is possible. Personally, I’m more in favor of using our real names. Its the fastest way to network.

    I can’t watch the video as I’m at work, but I give credit to anyone really trying to make a difference. Should there be some coordination about public appearances? Perhaps. Should alternative avenues, such as attempting to target key artists, such as musicians, to help get the message onto the radio, etc. be considered? Maybe.

    It is the media that caused a lot of the things the manosphere rails against. It only makes sense to turn the machine against itself.

    1. I wasn’t speaking of anonymity in name but face. I think that’s what we’re all getting at. No Pick-Up Artist or Game blogger uses his real name. That is already standard procedure. It’s not for anonymous purposes but more to have a cool name I’d say.

  27. A.B. Dada and Mark Minter use their real names. There’s something about it that keeps you honest, I think.

    1. Nothing wrong with keeping your real name. My real name is plastered throughout my blog, Twitter and Facebook. But I just mainly see it guys wanting a cool pseudonym to accompany their persona in this field.

  28. “Rollo, I’m unable to follow what you’re getting at exactly.”

    “I think George did well, but I think he could’ve gone on the attack more and opened up the discussion to more redpill arguments.”

    No, he could not have. That is the point.

    “Anyone who talks to the MSM about this stuff, or even their own female/white-knight friends, should be going in fully expecting to be shit-tested thru the roof with everything from tooling to accusations to armchair diagnoses to attempts to twist words and steal the frame etc.”

    In a short segment for TV, it is not going to go past this.

    “Learn this now red-pill literati before you venture into the MSM – the feminine imperative will gladly make you the red meat for the indignation that sells their advertising to women.”

    You may also learn how quickly they are willing to accept certain parts if they think it can be twisted or reinterpreted to their ends. For instance, the hamster that the wrote the “bad boy” article says,

    “I’m ok with the beta provider I married after fucking my spell of bad boys [Hamster: “because of hypergamy, evolutionary quest for protection/security, and/or replaying childhood scripts; not because I decided to”] and learned my lesson so you gals should learn from my mistakes”

    but that is not what she means. She means “I was haaaaappy when ‘fucking my spell of bad boys’ and still got to marry ‘beta provider’ and can even come on TV and flaunt this in front of his face and he still will not ditch me. Learn the right lesson, gals!”

  29. It takes guts to at least get into the ring. But we live in a feminize society where ideas will be shot down or diluted in the ring of the hamster and white knights.

    Women only respond to what they feel…that’s why you can’t engage logically with them. What they want is a masculine heart. Decisive, confident, bold, and aggressive. Most men should just strive for those attriubutes to get through this world in general. That’s how you become great…you don’t even need a woman to be a success.

    1. Y’all Manosphere guys are hilarious with this feminist talk. Get over it already! Feminism is BS but it isn’t a big deal. If you don’t like feminists; then fuck them (as in taking them to bed).

  30. Krauser is right.

    The MSM is dead, it can’t hold a candle to the content in the blogosphere which is probably why Google disbanded Reader and governments world wide are creating media oversight panels that will include online content.

    The MSM is desperate for the male audience (chicks don’t watch the news, thats why they have the lifestyle section) and when Forbes gets 2000 comments on a manosphere topic they know where the audience is at.

    Marketers will try to drag the guys in as they know nothing garnishes attention like a good fight.

  31. “One little tip – tell a story. When you talk unvarnished theory they cut you off. When you lead into a story (e.g. the date) they’d look far more socially inept if they cut you off.”

    This. Big time. I would couch my MMSL example in a story like a friend was in a sexless marriage and we were able to help blah blah. It’s hard to cut someone off when they tell a story, even if it isn’t going anywhere lol

    “women just assume they are the relationship experts and the men don’t. (…) Perhaps a few good pre-prepared rejoinders for this would be helpful”

    Tyler’s recent one is my favorite: “Getting knocked out by Mike Tyson doesn’t make you qualified to teach boxing. :)” lol

    “you know what else I could have done? Taken all the glory myself and not spoken at all about the Manosphere. I didn’t have to do that. But I wanted to raise its profile and continue giving back to the community that has helped me grow so much.”

    Props for that. That’s the thing we have that makes it impossible to snuff the sphere out: we are men legitimately trying to help other men. Before PUA got all commercialized, there were a few years where guys were charging nothing for bootcamps, sleeping on eachother’s couches, holding seminars in coffee shops and classrooms after school, dumping massive information dumps on message boards, analyzing eachother’s FRs and trying out eachother’s ideas etc. There wasn’t any money involved, it was completely about “I’ve discovered this thing that helped me as a man and I want to help other men who’ve helped me, to pay it forward”.

    The Manosphere right now has that same attitude. You can’t take away our resources to cripple the movement because all the resources are is free information and discussion of ideas.

    “The last thing we want is for the manosphere to come off like these PUAs did, so desperate for MSM exposure that they hang themselves”

    Oh god don’t even get me started on that video. But that IS a good example of what the MSM has to watch out for and what I mean when I say PUAs learned their lesson the hard way already lol. These guys go onto an MSM show and completely play into the frame/roles the MSM sets up for them. By trying to convince the MSM, they’re just fighting an unsinkable battle. What was going to happen, in their minds? The host chick goes “wow that was smooth, fuck ASD I want to suck your dick right here on national TV, Mr PUA!!!”

    Tyler has mentioned that he gets interview, reality show, etc requests daily. But he knows exactly what would happen. Oprah would bring him up on stage and go “Mr Cook, I understand you tell men to go up to women and tell them, and I QUOTE, “I want to put a baby in your tummy”. (audience of ugly women gasps and boos) Now we have a lot of strong successful women here today…ladies, would you like it if a strange man approached you and told you “I want to put a baby in your tummy?”” while Tyler has the look of a man facing a lynch mob on his face.

    In a way, the reactions the Manosphere get will be worse than PUAs got, because to the MSM, PUA is only relevant to the singles dating bar scene (though that’s not true, it’s their perception because the marketing focuses on that)…so they can marginalized us, especially if they’re married or old or don’t go out to bars etc. and at worst we come off like liars who just take advantage of “dumb bar sluts” and aren’t a big worry because “I would see right thru them!” and they visualize us looking like those guys on the news show did.

    But to them the Manosphere is attacking way broader topics that affect their own lives and beliefs. You’re attacking family structure, marriage, family law, feminism, etc. You can’t bring up Hypergamy and how doing housework betas a guy and makes him less attractive, without a woman listening worrying that her husband might realize she’s been fucking her boss while he stays at home with the kids. So you have to be shut up hard and fast in any way possible to stop those ideas from getting out to the masses.

    Mystery’s reality show was a decent attempt at MSM because it couched things in self-development and tried to get people to care for the guys on the show etc. But that show was mostly done on his terms, where he could do things his way. Keys to the VIP got some PUA game out there, but it’s audience was limited and they had to couch it in super blue-pill friendly terms. Hell Cajun’s appearance on Keys probably did more for PUA than Mystery’s show. And ya, people made fun of Mystery an his fuzzy hat, but they couldn’t argue with a lot of the ideas presented in the show. So all of those were decent attempts at getting PUA into the mainstream.

    Even the Simple Pickup guys are doing good things. They’re just recycling PUA ideas but in new terms and they’re adding a comedic aspect to everything to keep from coming off like the fuzzy hat guys. They’re couching it a lot more as “self-development for men” rather than “hypnotize her into bed!!”

    But then on the flip side we have our epic fails, like that news pickup attempt up above, or Paul Janka looking like a sociopath on Dr Phil, or RSDJeffy getting called out on Jezebel, etc. These would be the equivalent of them interviewing Roissy or Roosh or me lol you don’t want that. Rollo would be a good rep, and 3MM ultimately wasn’t bad and did the best with his situation.

    Anyway, learn from our mistakes and do better with the Manosphere…you’ll HAVE to because they’ll be less receptive to you than they were to us.

    “We get that. But exposure is better than no exposure at all, right?”

    I dunno man, watch that PUA news pickup video again lol. Does ANYONE watching that come away thinking “I want to hear what these guys have to say”? Fuck no lol

    These days, with the Internet and social media etc, anything you say or do with the MSM will be documented and linked around forever. It’s important to handle it properly if you really want to get a message out thru the assault.

  32. Kudos for George for showing up when obviously the deck was stacked against him. I did notice the cackle by the Dr. when the host was gigging George about his anonymity.

  33. Here’s another MSM article where the manosphere makes an appearance:

    From this thread:

    I’m not at all surprised by how the community is presented, but you’ve got to admit it’s one of the best MSM articles on the topic I’ve seen to date.

  34. I couldn’t be bothered to spend 30 mins on the thing, so I randomly clicked on bits – when George responds to the Fraggle Rock creature’s assertion that “marriage is all about a life together and so much more than sex” “Absolutely. (blah blah)” I knew I wasn’t missing anything.

    The correct response should have been “No, Marriage is fundamentally about sex. And having babies. Which needs sex.”
    And then wait for her comebacks and destroy them in detail.

    “You lose every battle you don’t enter”
    The correct action in every circumstance is to discern what the enemy most wants you NOT to do. Then do it. i.e. if they invite you on, decline. Decline, Decline, Decline. Make your own channel. Compete for revenue. Steal their eyeballs. Only appear if you can get more than they give. Okay, I’ll do a phone-in in exchange for 4 unedited 1500 word pieces, Featured post first page one day a week, for the next 4 weeks, co-hosted my site and yours, my copyright. Otherwise fuck it. You already have a blog.

    “They’ve invited me back”
    Yeah, in between pieces by Valerie Jarrett and baby Clinton. 3MM of course they gave you good feedback. You were a gooooood wikkle blogger.

  35. I see the MSM latching onto the Alpha/Beta dichotomy and then using that to shame men even more. Things like, “Only a beta would do X” will replace, “Only a real man would do X.”

  36. “But I just mainly see it guys wanting a cool pseudonym to accompany their persona in this field.”

    It’s retarded to me that people would even consider expecting the Manosphere/PUAs to use their real names/faces. Once your ideas are attached to your real life persona, you have to censor them so it doesn’t affect your day-to-day life/career/reputation/etc. We can have honest discussions because of our anonymity.

    I’ve fucked a bunch of married chicks, and because of that I can explain all sorts of shit about attraction, hypergamy, alpha/beta dynamics, the psychology behind backwards rationalization, etc. that can help men. You think I’d want my real name/face plastered everywhere to score a few brownie points on a news clip? Lol

    Plus like I said, it wouldn’t even make a difference. If you showed your face they’d just label you creepy because of your haircut or your movie posters in the background or one of 10,000 other things. All being anonymous did was give them an easy shit-test, like wearing a fuzzy hat to a bar.

    I actually liked 3MM’s response, that he shares personal real stories about people in his life and he doesn’t want them to get hurt. If he had a more solid frame with that, the news guy wouldn’t have been able to twist it into being a creepy pussy, but again it seemed like sort of an unexpected “fly by the seat of my pants” ambush there.

    Remember: “what you feel, they feel”. That guy’s pussy comment could’ve been steamrolled with stuff like “We discuss our problems online because men are ridiculed for admitting they have relationship problems and it provides us a place where we can honestly express our feelings and bond. Women are encouraged to share their feelings, but men are called pussies by their buddies if they do the same, so this is our safe outlet to help eachother grow as men and develop ourselves to become attractive confident men that women want to be with.”

    What would be good is a list of all the main attacks the MSM will use on Manosphere guys, with some prepared responses or ways to deflect/handle them, as well as the key points that the MSM could digest that would work as a baited hook to lure men in (to where the info itself will then handle the rest), and how to quickly/efficiently get those points across in short sound bytes.

    Like my blurb above could be shortened to “Well women are encouraged to share their feelings but men are called pussies by their buddies if they do the same. Being anonymous allows us to honestly share our feelings and get support from other men who’ve gone through the same thing.” That’s a nice little snippet that you really couldn’t take out of context and twist into something mysogynistic or bitter or hateful or evil.

    Would be good for someone to do an article or start a discussion/wiki/etc on handling the MSM while representing the Manosphere for these situations that anyone going into an interview/etc could read over to prepare.

    1. It’s not retarded. I see no point in using one’s real name, but you’re face: of course! It’s the only way to gain credibility, and this is the Manosphere’s problem, a bunch of anonymous guys giving dating advice yet they aren’t willing to show and prove that they actually live that life.

  37. Whenever a woman talks about wanting a man to be this and be that…it’s basically filtered down to this.

    “I want a man to be basically a woman until I want him to be a man. And I determine this by my emotions (or where I’m at in the period of ovulation) at this time.”

    Is it any wonder nice guys are confused…or angry at women? Most guys have a default personality and rarely deviate from that.

    I found the best way it to cut out the confusion and anger is to live life on my terms…as a man.

  38. Like if I were going on a MSM interview about PUAs, I’d know they’re going to bring up negs and try to frame me as manipulative and encouraging men to be cruel to women. That’s going to happen no matter how well I present myself. It would be insane NOT to have some prepared reframes/explanations for that scenario. Then they’re going to talk about peacocking and fuzzy hats. That will happen, even if I’m dressed in a suit. So it would be silly not to have some responses for that prepared.

    Going in NOT fully expecting those things to come up would be insane. Same time, PUAs have had 10 years worth of MSM attacks so we’ve seen all these tactics already. NOW we could give a good solid interview (that’s why more recent MSM interviews focus more on self-help and lifestyle than getting pussy and guys are “dating coaches” instead of “pickup gurus” etc).

    The Manosphere covers such a broad range of ideas that you guys have no idea what they’re going to throw at you yet…but now we know being anonymous will result in a “you’re creepy Internet nerds trying to figure out women” shit-test. They’ll paint you as bitter sad expats moving to Thailand to pay poor foreign women to be your sex slaves. Like if you don’t have a solid cool-headed fun sharp reframing response to that accusation, you shouldn’t be doing an interview because you will get raped and that raping will stay online forever for people to link in every Jezebel article for the rest of eternity lol

  39. ” .. as I take his money and our kids!”
    A while back I would never have noticed, but you know it’s funny how I was nodding along, yup, fine, good stuff, cosign, check, roger that .. and then really stubbed my toe on that part.

    I can’t recall ever hearing that from a woman (except when she’s confronting another woman .. maybe).
    It’s “my kids” all the way, or at best “the kids” (generally when addressing the hired hand father.

  40. Yeah well, I pay a price for using my name. I am fully prepared to pay it but I don’t say it because of any sense of courage.

    I am 57 and the reality is that it is far less of a price for me to pay that it would have been for me if I was 29. I don’t have to contend with it being discovered at work. But frankly I don’t want to work in anymore corporations. And frankly at this age, I don’t really want any American woman that would consider me. My next phase in life is going to be outside the United States, so I don’t care.

    No, at this stage of the game, their is no shame of using a username, but rather an awareness of the reality of the consequences. I pretty much advise anyone to not use their real name.

    Also, I wouldn’t assume that anyone could have done even as well as 3MM. Roosh had three or four circumstances being on media in countries and in one interview he just went totally “Borat” given almost ridiculous answers to the questions because he assumed in no way would he given fair treatment.

    Consider this as a victory though, even the “Clinical Psychologist” admitted that women want the bad boy. And it was the whole “frame” of the article. So, at least that sets up reinforcement for the future.

    And for future reference women want the bad boy, muscles, arrogance, confrontational behavior, unfaithfulness, stupidity, especially when ovulating, because they are subconscious signal of the presence of testosterone that all coalesce into a congruent signal of the presence of immunocompetence. Studies show women despise “warm”, “faithful”, faithful, intelligent, especially when ovulating exactly because they are the opposite of testosterone signals.

    It is so subconsciously important, that evolution will not allow the species to be ran into an evolutionary dead end, that it is completely outside of the realm of conscious control on the part of the woman.

    The modern world has only gotten dominion over the microbial realm in the last 100 years, even less in most places. An infant with the proper immune system to “take on” the microbial threats of the current time and place and survive is the best gift a father can give to a child. The baddest warrior, the richest man, can do nothing to protect his child against a germ or a virus. Testosterone is high cost in that it detracts from the immune system and the man that can show the masculine traits does so exactly because he has superior immunocompetence that can thrive in spite of testosterone.

    That’s the answer I would have given. You tell me if the show would have accepted it or not.

    1. Dude, I salute you, but there’s no price to pay. That is just a BS excuse by the Manosphere to justify being anonymous. My point overall is this; you can be claiming to be Alpha yet hide yourself under the cloak of anonymity. That’s why I’ve always said, the Manosphere needs a rebranding. It should rid itself of all the anonymous bloggers and do it all over again in essence.

  41. I hadn’t checked RationalMale, so I just looked at 3MM when George posted the links. But watching the video it became clear the anonymity is useful to the MSM. The host could laugh at George being anonymous, manosphere, and not deal with George’s expression. Which makes the viewers feel better about their preconceived notions.

    Everyone of the participants couched George and hence the Manosphere as misogynist. This came about when the BETA said we should not promote violence towards women, and everyone agreed. Implying that the Manosphere is about that. Though George tried to combat that with we teach men to be confident. It was lost in the noise of applauds for the BETA. The problem is the PUA community has been cast in a dark light in the Matrix. The Manosphere is bigger than the PUA community, but the MSM will use it to destroy our message.

    In all seriousness, it is advised that if this is the year of the Manosphere, we read Alinsky’s Rules For Radicals and begin organizing. For if the MSM can label us we will never reach a critical mass and turn Dalrocks great blog on “Why aren’t men responding to economic signals?” around, the situation in my view is that dire.

    I found TheLastPsychiatrist has a great insight in the MSM and how it co-ops movements.

    I am up for helping organizing, funding and participating.

    1. He being the only anonymous guest, and being anonymous period is a dagger in the Manosphere’s coffin. Not really, but it’s a step backwards. You can’t be anonymous (in the media) and claim to be Alpha. Had a real anti-PUA or anti-Manosphere person been on the segment, he or she would chew George up just on the basis of being anonymous.

      1. SocialKenny, I agree completely. I think that was even pointed out by the host of the event.

        The question that is out on the twitter sphere is what going to happen… take rule 13 from Alinsky the MSM will “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”

        If we find a leader, a big if, MSM will find a “victim” of the leader and polarize the issue. We are being labeled before the opening bell.

        1. True about being labeled before the opening bell. I couldn’t have said it better. I’m glad George of 3MM got the opportunity, but Roosh, as much as we have our issues, he would’ve been the most ideal representative.

          1. SocialKenny,

            I agree, its just the first salvo. I am supposed to meet George in June. I don’t know Roosh, but his writing would be picked apart by those opposing the Manosphere. I do believe Dalrock or Rollo would be excellent choices. Though Dalrok with a religious bent would corner us as just conservative frustrated men. Rollo on the other hand is technical and well rounded, it would be hard to corner a scientific approach. Let me check out your blog 🙂

          2. Roosh is supposed to be the king Manospherian so I don’t see him getting picked apart on insights which he’d originated in a sense.

          3. SocialKenny,

            I think he is the king too, but its his style of writing, his short term view, heck even his “love” of women in DC. That while may be true, within the Matrix this is blasphemy. Does that make sense? The Manosphere should try to present itself as a solution to Dalrocks blogpost. Not a critic of women, and getting them. Everyone that I have sent to Roosh website is turned off by his style and other posts. Again I love Roosh, he is very insightful if you have taken the red pill.

            On a side note, I made my first “pass” at a woman this morning, you mind if I send it too you and get a critic?

  42. Also props to “George” talking about how men improve other aspects of their life through books. But when it comes to woman we are suppose to fly by the seat of our pants?

    I actually heard that addage a long time ago by “Doc Love” in The System. Bill Gates didn’t go off on a whim hope for the best to create a business…he had a plan and a strategy. Great generals don’t go into war without having an idea about their enemy, the terrian, his troops, and having the ability to make tough decisions. Even sports athletes who have natural talent don’t become great without practice and good coaching. Every endevor a man takes he has a strategy…but we aren’t supposed to have one with a woman. That’s considered manipulation and we aren’t being ourselves????

    Well if you ask me…if a man is truly being himself…he has an inital plan and works to better himself.

  43. Also I don’t think it will take 3 generations. I see why that comment was made. Feminism really took 3. But we have entered a phase of accelerated technical, social, and even biological evolution.

    I would think it better now to think in terms of 10 year cohorts instead of generations.

    I think 1 more 10 year cohort. Young men tend to gravitate to what works sexually. Return of Kings data on internet pages that show access, ranking, states that the readership is 25-35 mostly accessed from home. And young men are in sexual competition far more than older men. I always held that PUA was the most powerful force in the manosphere and its growth would dwarf MRA.

    And at some point, the decisions men are making, are going to have economic bite. But who knows. We know that “herbs” constitute 30-40% of young Japanese men. And they have been commented on in Japanese media. But no one connects that “maybe” sluggish growth in the Japanese economy for the past decade and a half are due to herbs and not “underperforming banks”. Maybe if herbs weren’t herbs then banks might not be “underperforming”.

    I got a Facebook message from a kid that said he saw my comments on freaking PBS and clicked to my profile and read everything I wrote. He said “I wish I knew this stuff when I was younger.” I pointed him to this blog.

    So “conversion” can come from the most unlikely places even PBS. Heck, I even saw Uncle Elmer over there making a comment today. And I am sure Manosphere growth is occurring at a faster rate than even geometrically, where each of us converts two people, and those two convert two each, and so on.

    There is a fable about some old Chinese emperor who regularly played with a chess master, who pretty much cleaned his clock and the emperor rarely even took a piece of the chess master, but the Emperor learned chess strategy and hence, wisdom. He offered the chess master a large present, anything he wanted.

    The chess master said they would set up two boards. As the chess master took one of the Emperors pieces, the master would advance a piece one square forward and up on the second board. The Emperor would then give him one grain of rice for the first square and then double it for each advance to the next square. The Emperor jump on it. Hey, what’s a few grains of rice on a chess board?

    By halfway through the board, the Emperor had realized the fix he was in. By the end of the board, he would owe the chess master more rice than China could produce. The fable has two endings. In one he has the chess master killed for being so tricky. And in the other the master “retires” citing the exercise as example of exponentiation.

  44. I will say this.

    There was early point where I started using my name. At first it was “mark” for one or two sites. I think Roosh’s site lets you just put in a name and not register. Then most sites allow for Facebook logins.

    So the first one that auto filled Mark Minter into it, I thought “Fuck it. I am not ashamed to have these opinions. They are based on the truth as near as I can detect it.”

    And I am quite proud to be affiliated with this movement and all of you.

    More than I can say “I wish I knew this stuff sooner”, I can say I wish I knew all of you sooner.

  45. They frame the debate, but PUA is expert framing-training. Our first couple of appearaces might be a bit rough, but we’ll get it.

    Nevertheless, we must be destroyed. When the way in which PUA completely discredits feminism becomes too apparent, they’ll come after us another way. Maybe we’re what women want, and maybe we’re right about that, but we must still be framed as evil.

    So they’ll come after us from another angle:

  46. “They frame the debate, but PUA is expert framing-training.”

    Yup…frame control is a lost art amongst men. The MSM (or women in general) set up some scenario (we teach men to be violent towards women as an example)…and then the guy has to spend the time trying to regroup from the downsides of masculinity.

    I won’t argue that within males what makes us great is also part of our self-destruction. There is a fine line that must be mastered. But your feminized media only wants to point out male self-destruction and could care less about male self-construction.

    If “George” or anybody else happens to engage with the MSM…stay within the frame that the sphere betters men…and forget about the boogie men about what makes men bad. Its been rehashed a million and one times. These places are great tools that actually spouts some truth about what constructive masculinity is. Women being turned on and relationships that work are just a natural byproduct of better men.

  47. “More than I can say “I wish I knew this stuff sooner”, I can say I wish I knew all of you sooner.”

    I think every man in his core knows this stuff…you have a world that brainwashes and shames masculinity to the point that you don’t want to be a man anymore. I wish I found people that said “it’s okay and good to be a man” sooner.

  48. YaReally would also do great in that he strongly exudes “I don’t give a shit” which makes it almost impossible to pin you down. He seems to have no interest in doing it, which can often make you really good at it.

    Rollo would be great, but we need to keep in mind that the moment you “win” they’ll change the subject entirely. Rollo would be forced to defend the views of others with whom he associates. If he doesn’t agree with those views, he’d have to defend his association with them.

    If they can’t discredit your ideas, they’ll discredit you. If they can’t discredit you, they’ll discredit anyone you’ve ever linked to, any comment you didn’t delete, etc.

    This could be countered effectively if it’s expected in advance with a nice, hard, rhetorical counter-punch. However, as I point out in the post I link to, we’ve set ourselves up for some attacks that will make it just a bit easier for the opposition to discredit us.

  49. 3MM, You have more courage than I do… if I had heard this exchange from the interview, I would have just hung up on the whole thing…

    Ann Brenoff: Well, the good news is, I married a nice guy so I, I managed to overcome what I think a lot of women… ..are held back by which is we want the danger we want to believe that we can change someone um that’s so empowering and um I remember rejecting guys just because they were nice to me they were not interesting and uh in hindsight I wasted a lot of years doing that uh what surprised me and the reason I wrote this blog is I write for huffpost 50 a baby-boomer site and I’m still seeing women my age doing this, uh you know they come out of bad marriages and they take up with, even their ex-husband, they keep being drawn back to the same behavior and reactions that they the the same patterns that they had in their 20s and reasonably they should know better.

    Ah, so there’s a good strong hamster here. Very little recognition of the bad decisions of the individual, exasperated “confusion” at motivations, and professed victimhood. Ok, standard fare from most sociological-study women in mass media.

    Male Host: one strange way I almost kind of understand it more in middle age though. I understand that if you’re coming out of say a long boring marriage where there was no spark in your life and your marriage falls apart and you’re been engaging the same person across the dining room table year after year after year you get out and you want a bit of youth again you want some pizzazz you want to get the top-down convertible car, and go smoke a reefer and reclaim your youth…

    Oh, my, god…

    3MM, you would have had to harshly dress-down the host for maintaining an atmosphere that forgives women for seeking pleasure with no responsibility to have gotten anywhere in that interview.

  50. If there is anything a person should not do when engaging in these debates is to dress down the host, the women, or the white knighters in their folly. They will quickly take the “victimhood” status and you lose.

    Yareally is right…the best thing you can do is get the information out there for wise men who may not know this even exists. I found MMSL and eventually all the other websites through Hawaiian Libertarian because that’s my political beliefs…and I couldn’t argue against it because everything talked about I saw and lived through. You don’t do it to convince your enemies you are right…you do it to lead guys who have that splinter in their brain telling them something isn’t right but you don’t know what it is.

  51. 3MM, I think I might have come across as unduly harsh on you in this post. I do in fact think you did well and I commended you for it, but your example here should serve as a warning for any of the more visibile writers in the manosphere – the feminine imperative will control the message for you, and they’re learning the profitability in encouraging this kind of debate.

    Regarding anonymity: One of the inherent dangers of becoming the go-to guy on Game or anything that rubs the feminine defined reality the wrong way is that you paint a pretty big target on yourself. Literally and figuratively.

    I’m not a proponent of Roissy’s politics, but I definitively co-sign with his perspective on intergender relations. Now, which of these stances earns him the most vitriol? His writings about gender; that’s how important it is to defend the feminine imperative for the masses of online feminists and manginas. They can ignore his political screeds as just some right-wing crank, but they become so irate with his perspective on intergender dynamics that they seek to do him personal and professional harm – to the point where he had to rename both himself and his blog to continue writing.

    You are only as anonymous online as your opinions make you nondescript. Piss off the wrong aspergers troll or Jezebel fanatic and they will hunt you down digitally. I’m becoming more aware of this as my own blog becomes more popular.

    While everyone online might assumes a pseudonym for vanity sake, all but the most visible manosphere writer do so in order to protect their livelihoods.

    Guy’s writing in the manosphere put their lives and reputations at risk to do so. We assume personal, career and life impacting risks for assuming a countervailing perspective to the feminine imperative that even parttime feminists writing for Jezebel would never have to worry about.

    To paraphrase Roosh, if you write feminist boilerplate as a hobby on Jezebel you’re commended for making the world a better place; write about intergender dynamics from a male perspective and you become unemployable. Just ask the two programmers who lost their jobs over ‘dongle-gate’ courtesy of Adria Richards. They were fired for ‘crude humor’, imagine if they’d written manosphere blogs.

  52. “The way to my heart is through my brain.” I bet she met a lot of brainiacs through her 20s.

  53. I think the manosphere is better served by being anonymous. It is more than one person, it is collective. We are fighting against what most people believe. People will fight for what they believe. All is fair in love and war but when manospherians expose themselves you can be martyred in the cause. Most times the legend is bigger than the person.

  54. @earl

    If there is anything a person should not do when engaging in these debates is to dress down the host, the women, or the white knighters in their folly. They will quickly take the “victimhood” status and you lose.

    You will get no disagreement from me on this point. I do, however, think that victimhood itself should be attacked. Everyone wants to pretend they are victims of their own outcomes rather than agents of it, most people under 35 have been taught this through most of their lives thus far. This is a pillar of their entire strategy, profess frustration and victimhood and the need for help from beta men and beta men will simply go do what is needed. This *HAS* to be turned around on them or you’re fighting unarmed. The way to do it is to simply profess confusion at the fact that you are dealing with unempowered non-adults rather than free empowered women as you expected. If they wish to continue to claim to be victims of the patriarchy, then hold individuals accountable for their decisions (leave generalization behind when they use it, your discussion will turn into a quagmire if you engage in it). The first woman in her first few sentences confesses that she rejected nice guys because they were uninteresting, the proper response is to her to that. Ask her if she has explored why she rejected nice guys, why were those guys uninteresting to her. If she can’t answer that, she has no intellectual backing for the rest of her argument (and she doesn’t, she just wasn’t held to the fire for it).

  55. “The way to my heart is through my brain.”

    That comment made me laugh. I found intellectual conversations with women are a great way to cure them of insomnia.

  56. I’d pretty much avoid television altogether. Nowadays it’s greared completely towards idiots with short attention spans, a waste of time and space. There’s no place in it for honest debate where people are given enough time to explain themselves. It’s a cesspool. There are some exceptions though.

  57. i have a feeling that if it were roosh, he would’ve just trolled them.

    “The way to my heart is through my brain.”

    totally true. women love getting skull-fucked.

  58. It doesn’t matter whether it goes “mainstream”.

    We are entirely postmodern. Fuck them.

    Every day the mainstream get a little less so. Everyday, it, and what it was, come under attack from what “is” and what “will be”.

    Two days ago some company run by Barry Diller got a suit thrown out by the New York Supreme court where Diller’s company has an itty bitty little antennae in a warehouse, claiming it picked broadcast stations, one per antennae per subscriber. Then they streamed the local DTV channels to subscribers online. So, in affect, rather than providing a public showing using copyrighted material, Diller was in effect merely transporting a private showing in the form the subscriber wished.

    It was a straight up bullshit manipulation of a loophole, but it stood. So it serves one more group of people looking to “decouple”.

    Verizon or Comcast is suing MTV’s parent using the most obscure anti-trust logic. MTVs parent made them a deal they couldn’t refuse. They “forced” to agree to a bundle of shows, Nick, other MTV stuff, along with MTV for cheaper then they could buy MTV alone. And the cable provider argues it requires them to provide all these channels subscribers don’t want. They want to break up the bundle and allow more al a carte subscription packages. Nick is eating shit now because there aren’t any kids being born any more. But whether there are 100 million subscribers of 10 million it still costs the same to produce those shows.

    The series “House of Cards” is a smash hit and it is made for NetFlix. The thing stars Kevin Spacey and an ensemble cast that has as good a production quality, better, than any network show. And it can only be seen by Netflix subscribers to streaming service.

    The modern era was exactly about centrality and standardization and the exact opposite is occurring. The only vestiges of that old model, even though powerful still, exists a vestiges to older, less technologically inclined people. Old women that want to lay in bed with fucking cats and flick between Fox, CNN, Liffetime, and the fucking Hallmark network, maybe Turner Classic Movies if they have attention span.

    Every fucking day that model dies a little bit, that MSM model. CNN is a fucking shell of what is was 5 years ago. And it is more than just a media model of entertainment and news. It is a whole epoch that is changing.

    The the last time this happened was 1500, when the printing press was made and Luther bangs his 95 thesis on the door of the Cathedral of Salzburg. Things you think about even as old didn’t exist at that time. There weren’t even kings like you think of “kings” nor nations like you think of “nations.” We can’t even know if people even thought in the way we think, I mean mechanically, like we do. Today everything is based on text. There was no text back then. Speech is even called “spoken text”.

    And no way Luther bangs up his Thesis and thinks, “well, that ought to lead to elections for national governments and public education”.

    Or no way Guterberg thinks “Well now we print can porn.” But guess the fuck what? Within few years, shop in Switzerland are banging out porn and smuggling that shit all through Europe.

    And we are still in middle of all this. We still think old ways yet live in new ways. We are part of trends that we don’t know we are a part of.

    I read an article yesterday about this exhaustive search that went on to produce the movie Lincoln and still stuff got through. There was no “bipartisan” until the 1900s, nobody even named “Kevin” in America until after the IRA struggles in the 20th century.

    When the internet first came out, the thing was to use it do the same stuff that was done before. The University of North Carolina sponsored Project Gutenberg, to put all these great books and great works of art online for the public. Now no one could give a shit any of that. Tumblr just past its 1 billionth post.

    Fuck a bunch of great books. The manosphere is a “great book” and a very damned entertaining read.

    Mainstream acceptance?

    We don’t need no stinkin’ mainstream acceptance.

  59. With respect to Internet anonymity, I’m pretty sure it will be severely curtailed in the near future, to say the least. There have been more and more propositions to that effect in recent years. Of course, it’ll officially be done to “prevent cyberbullying and online harassment” or something like that. The opponents of online anonymity are numerous and influential: feminists, mainstream politicans, record companies, anyone who’s against internet piracy. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose by curtailing online anonymity or doing away with it.

    My prediction is that Google and other providers will require you to apply for an ID on order to be able to comment and blog, and you’ll have to apply for an ID with your real name and address or something. There’s actually a law like that in South Korea. The federal gummint will require them to do so or lose federal contracts. Or something like that. The bottom line is that something will be done. It’ll be yet another nail in the coffin of free expression and another victory for the MSM and the Feminine Imperative.

    Enjoy online anonymity while it lasts.

    1. Wow! Sounds like a grim future to me, but I see it happening. The amount of bullshit changes Google has embarked on over the past 8 months is ridiculous!

  60. @Mark; @3MM

    “Consider this as a victory though, even the “Clinical Psychologist” admitted that women want the bad boy. And it was the whole “frame” of the article.”

    even the “Clinical Psychologist” admitted. Consider that this does not carry the benefits you perceive. Specifically,

    “For one, the psychologist strongly agreed with a number of my key points.”

    Did she “agree with your key points”, or only with the premise in regards to “In girl-world, women are the sole arbiters of relationship wisdoms – men are simply foils for their legitimacy”?

  61. @ Hoellenhund: And considering that the Federalist Papers that argued for the ratification of our Constitution were published anonymously, banning online anonymity would be almost a poetic way to end our freedoms.

  62. The correct response should have been “No, Marriage is fundamentally about sex. And having babies. Which needs sex.”
    And then wait for her comebacks and destroy them in detail.

    It doesn’t work that way when everyone else in the ‘debate” are against you. Anything you say that steps over the line will be immediately shouted down. You have to be s sneaky fucker to get your point across when no one wants to hear what you have to say.

  63. Well said Jeremy. We’re living in a time when claiming victim is a reflex for so many. It’s epidemic passive-aggressiveness, and it does have rewards, both socially and monetarily… but at the expense of pride, the ability to think objectively, and the system as a whole. To mix metaphors: in mental hygiene, it’s the high-fructose option. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

    Personal responsibility is key.

    Much discourse these days seems to be preoccupied, ostensibly, with the pursuit of Fairness. But Fairness and Truth do not always coincide, and so very few are able to step far enough outside their own motivations to reconcile the two (Justice).

    Mewlings about Fairness are usually exposed, to those with perspective, as a simple contest of imperatives. Thus we become Paralyzed by Fair.

    We must refuse to self-identify as victims, and refuse to be held hostage by those who do.

  64. @ Höllenhund thanks for the good link

    Dr. Jordan Peterson is a beacon of reason and many here will appreciate him. Not only for his perspectives that relate to this sphere, but for his broader and deeper work.

  65. Dude, I salute you, but there’s no price to pay. That is just a BS excuse by the Manosphere to justify being anonymous.

    If you ever manage to piss off the wrong person you will learn just how wrong this is.

  66. @3MM, have a look at Krauser’s appearance on London Real here:

    This may help you prepare for any follow up you do with the Huff-Po. Krauser is very controlled and anticipates the direction of the conversation before the host(s) drive to where he knows they’ll take discussion.

    Granted he’s in some friendly territory here, but this is the collectiveness you need. Understand that you’ll only have a fraction of the time the women will get to make their points, so make them count with cogent, prepared, points of your own. Maybe you did this while you were on, but take notes about what these women stated and try to address them while delivering your own side.

    And just to further my own point, have a look at this Reddit thread:

    Red Pill reddit guy takes the manosphere to the BBC and the results are predictable.

  67. Roosh should be the spokesman for the manosphere?

    Would you ask someone to take a big bite of a ghost pepper to try to get them accustomed to spicy foods?

  68. I was just over on Heartiste and Kate went toe to toe with Matthew King. She gets my admiration forever for doing that.

    One of you marrying kind of guys ought to marry her. I have seen her picture. She is blond and attractive.

  69. HuffPo is for cunts, just like the rest of the MSM. It’s a feminist circle jerk and echo chamber. Fuck ’em all.

  70. A good spokesman would…

    -actually care about the improvement of America/society
    -garner sympathy because of an unfortunate situation where the system knocked him out
    -have little ego

    WF Price probably fits this profile best.

    It would be easier to write off the entire manosphere if I were pushed to the front, mostly due to all my written baggage. Probably same for Heartiste, which is a shame because his arguments are most deadly.

    Dalrock is going to get a lot of attention. He gives our ideas an academic feel of approval.

  71. Manosphere bloggers doing interviews or TV with the MSM should expect to be treated the same way a GOP presidential candidate would be treated — they’re not interested in finding out what you stand for so their audience can be better informed, they’re interested in smearing you so that their audience will reject everything you stand for.

  72. The only somewhat “red pill” guy I can think of who works for a major media outlet is James Taranto of the WSJ. Everyone else takes the female point of view vis-a-vis sex and relationships as unquestionable gospel.

  73. Roosh no.

    He’s one of those MRA spearhead guys.

    In the end, you are the spokesman for the Manosphere.

    According to data on Alexa, Return of Kings has the largest readership of the main blogs. It is the most ambitious project to date to gather a variety of authors under the same masthead. And is an attempt to mainstream and legitimize the ideas of the movement.

    It is no secret, my affection for this blog here. But to me, no one has done more for men than the Roosh brand.

  74. Rollo, that Krauser interview was in more than just a friendly environment with two guys of similar age as him, he was the only one there and had near carte blanche to steer the discussion.

    As you rightly noted earlier in the thread, 3MM had to share the forum with a feminized host, an ugly 50 something manbeast, a dance mom psychologist, a total white knight, and a sheepish chubby guy. The amount of chaos (multitudes of directions) where the argument would go, the slings and arrows from multiple participants, and the inability to even get words into the discussion were excruciatingly difficult circumstances. The moderator shutting him down by insulting him was just too much.

    Compare the ability to fly a kite on a sunny day with 10 mile an hour winds versus trying to fly one in the middle of a tornado.

    I wonder if the manosphere would have to boil down their message to a five minute speech with a diagram.

    Start with a picture of a girl in a carousel of cocks , put an arrow over to a short beta banker and the 35 year old at an altar and then a final arrow to a 45 year old woman in a convertible with a pool boy and the now ex husband in an alley with a torn suit and a bottle of vodka in a paper bag.

    Heck, you could add your SMV curve to show an alternate reality for a bachelor .

  75. Oh, Mark. lol They’ve seen me and they’re not impressed 😉 Thank you all the same for the very sweet sentiment.

    As far as online sparring matches, I hate them. It takes a special bond to survive them.

    I hesitate to even suggest this because I don’t want it to sound like selling out, but don’t discount women as allies or marketers for you. I’m sure there are quite a few who are willing to do whatever they can to help. Their name shall be: Henrietta the Homemaker. Henrietta is the feminine of Henry and means “ruler of the home” whereas Henry is the “ruler of the estate.”

  76. @Rollo

    @3MM, have a look at Krauser’s appearance on London Real here:

    LoL I think the two situations are so vastly different as to make your comparison devoid of any meaning Rollo. I’m an obvious fan of Krauser, but you’re going to have to come up with a much better example than that.

  77. @ Retrenched: Glenn Reynolds, who does, does a column for USA Today. He’s linked to Roissy and Vox Day a few times each.

    He also mentions hypergamy quite a bit in his instapundit blurbs. His wife is Dr. Helen who focuses on men’s rights issues.

  78. The key is to go into these MSM spots with a specific goal and a specific target audience in mind.

    The red pill takes time to swallow – more than one writer has likened unplugging to the 5 stages of grief; it’s a long process that takes some introspection. The red pill’s strength is that it maps to real, revealed preferences and actual behavior. Appreciating this takes a certain base of life experience and reflection.

    To expect full conversions based on one minute of talking as part of a hostile panel discussion is unreasonable. The MSM is terrified of these ideas being given sincere consideration – that’s why the MSM wants to present the manosphere as angry and manipulative, to ensure that moral disgust slams the door shut on curiosity. I think sparking that curiosity, and getting salvageable betas to seek out the manosphere with an open mind is the appropriate goal for the circumstances.

    As right and as good as it may feel to castigate a manboob, or nuke a hamster, or preach to the converted, these things need to be about what was really accomplished at the end of the day.

    A couple specific tactical points:
    Being called out for your anonymity is a great chance to present the manosphere as “forbidden knowledge” and trade on the seductive allure of dangerous truths.

    Hamsterrific stories are best responded to by bringing out the unseen – question them make those boring nice guys and unsatisfying husbands into people with their own feelings and value, so that the real target audience can identify with them and try to transcend their current role as insignificant bit parts in some woman’s psychodrama.

  79. Would you ask someone to take a big bite of a ghost pepper to try to get them accustomed to spicy foods?

    i once got a girl to try pepper sauce made from scotch bonnets, i told her it was ‘salsa with a bit of kick, kinda like you’.

    did eventually get the bang after her taste buds regenerated a week later.

  80. @ frigidnorth “Being called out for your anonymity is a great chance to present the manosphere as ‘forbidden knowledge’ and trade on the seductive allure of dangerous truths.”

    It’s also a good way to call attention to their contradictions. If we’re actually oppressors, then why do WE have to be anonymous? If they were right about us, then Amanda Marcotte & Jessica Wakeman would be the ones using pseudonyms.

  81. 3MM, I’m not trying to patronize you. Yes, Krauser is on friendly territory, but notice his degree of preparedness for the interview. If that’s the degree needed to make cogent points in friendly territory, how much tighter do you need to be when you’re playing in the feminine imperative’s territory?

    As I stated in my post and in my comments, I’m glad you’re putting yourself on the line and I think you did a fantastic job given the context you were forced into. I’m not saying you should’ve turned it down or really done anything differently under the circumstances. I’m just saying that you need to know going in that in the brief time you’re allowed to make manosphere points you have to have impactful counterpoints at the ready.

    Have a look at Vox Day’s post about this:

  82. “but Roosh, as much as we have our issues, he would’ve been the most ideal representative.”

    lol. Yes, a guy who basically comes across as a dirty hippy that has to fly across the world to take advantage of poor destitute foreign women because he can’t manage a successful relationship with strong independent real North American women and who’s written a book titled Bang on how to buy foreign hookers.

    Ya, I can’t see any way THAT could be turned around by the MSM to make the Manosphere look bad (not that this is the actual case, but this is how he looks to the MSM. Perception is reality).

    I heart Roissy but he would be dragged into the mud for his racist/political views before he ever got to men’s self-development. I don’t read anyone else’s stuff really. Rollo would be great, he’s a married guy who doesn’t quite cross the line into offensive territory because when he does he backs it up with stats and calm rational explanations etc.

    I could probably handle myself in the media decently because I’ve been into PUA since near the start before it was as MSM as it is now, so I’ve already dealt with being vilified and attacked in discussions about male/female dynamics, but the reality is that I’ve written about fucking married women etc and they would dig that up to attack me before I got a chance to say anything.

    Hell I admitted to shitting on a chick at Roissy’s, as if that wouldn’t come up lol “Welcome everyone, today our guest is YaReally, who teaches men how to defecate on married women. Now we have a panel of married women here who say “Men shouldn’t be taught to manipulate women into being defecated on.” We’ve opened the phone lines so you can all phone in and share your stories of inappropriate things men have done in the bedroom.”

    On Hookingupsmart a while back, Sue posted “is this that Mark Minter guy they all worship?” and posted a link to a sex offender profile or some shit online of a guy named Mark Minter with a pic etc. Was that THE Mark Minter? I don’t know, but does it matter? Did anyone reading that thread do any research on him themselves, or did they go “omg this guy hates women just like I thought, look he’s a sex offender!!!”?

    The point is that once they have a name they will dig up anything, no matter how loosely connected, and try to drag that name thru the mud to stomp you out, because you can’t change your name/face…you’re basically giving them a weak point to attack to snuff you out.

    Being annonymous? If “yareally” were fucked over tomorrow, the next day I could be back as “bananahammock” and continue business as normal.

    Expecting guys to use their real name is thinking emotionally instead of logically.

    “I wonder if the manosphere would have to boil down their message to a five minute speech with a diagram.”

    You might be joking but this isn’t a bad idea. We haven’t formally done it, but over time from failing enough, us PUAs have pretty standard MSM-acceptable responses to attacks now.

    “So you lie to women and manipulate their emotions to take advantage of them?”

    “No, unless you consider makeup, push-up bras, and high heels manipulation of men. We simply show men how to demonstrate their most attractive traits. A lot of guys don’t get a chance to show what great people they are because they’re too shy to express themselves and they try to become what they think women want. How many girls have run into guys who just nod their head and agree with everything they say? It’s bland and boring. We teach men to be themselves and confidently show women who they are, so women like them for themselves, and women know what kind of man they’re getting.”

    “What about these “negs”? Where you tell a woman she’s ugly and she should die alone so that when she’s crying, you can emotionally browbeat her into letting you rape her?”

    “lol no I see where the confusion comes in, negging is a really complicated subject that sounds awful at first. Really, all a neg is is playful teasing to show the girl that you’re confident enough not to be intimidated by her looks. You’re showing her that while every other guy might give her extra credit just for having boobs, you expect her to have a personality as well…so if she does something dorky, you’ll call her a dork for it, with a playful grin. We always say that negging should make the girl smile and laugh, if it doesn’t then you’re doing it wrong and probably just insulting her lol”

    “What is this LMR stuff? You basically encourage men to “make the ho say no” by telling them to try to push through a woman’s resistance and rape her?”

    “Again this is something that’s a lot deeper than it gets summarized in sound bytes. LMR is about making a woman feel comfortable and choosing to have sex. If a woman says no, we stop, and we tell other men to stop when they get a no…in fact one of our LMR tactics is to back off completely, flip on the lights, and play a game of chess with her, to show her that we have complete respect for her boundaries and that if she doesn’t want to have sex that’s totally fine with us. We don’t get mad or kick her out, because we like her for more than just sex. Often, that demonstration of how respectful we are, is what makes the girl go “huh this guy is a pretty good guy, I can trust him not to make me do anything I don’t want to do and to go at my speed”, and then they choose to sleep with us. I can understand how it sounds bad at first glance, but that’s why we have a ton of literature and training to teach these nuances to guys. Ultimately our motto is to leave the girl better than you found her…if you leave her at all! A lot of men actually find long-term girlfriends or wives because they journeyed into self-improvement!”

    Like, some of that is bullshitty or skirting around land-mines, but it’s all knowing the kind of attacks they’ll use, then reframing everything in a positive light. If they dig deep enough they’ll find quotes and such that are harder to defend, but the MSM does the least research possible and they only have short little interview segments so they’re going for summarizing shit, not getting into details.

    The Manosphere should ask what are its main ideas it wants to get into the MSM that will be the most widely relatable by the average blue piller (hypergamy, incel marriage, men vs women SMV, men’s self-improvement VS “figuring women out”, etc).

    Then figure out how to best summarize/explain those things in a non-offensive way.

    Then figure out how each of those things can be twisted/vilified as harsh as possible (“so you’re saying women can’t control their emotions like men can?”, “so you’re saying marriage is only about sex and women OWE men sex and should be their sex slaves?”, “so you’re saying women shouldn’t be allowed to have careers or grow, they should just learn to cook and clean and hope a man rescues them in their early 20s? Our panel of strong independent beautiful 40yo single women would disagree”, “so you all hide online discussing what women want, that’s such a pussy thing to do, women want a man who takes charge duh!!”, etc)

    Then figure out how to reframe those things to bring them back to the good frame.

    Then figure out the 5 absolute worst things the Manosphere promotes or has done or even the very fringe writers have said, that will be brought up to attack/slander you when they can’t break thru your other defenses (immigration discussions, race discussions, political discussions, aren’t you bitter old men, aren’t you just like MRAs who hate women, mysogyny, etc).

    Then figure out how to reframe or brush off those things. It’s trickier for the Manosphere than PUA because PUA just addresses relationships, Manosphere starts getting into MRA territory, and again lead the conversation back into a positive reframe.

    If someone isn’t willing to sit down and do this stuff, then they either shouldn’t represent the Manosphere in the MSM or they should accept that they will fuck up and that fuck up will be on the Internet forever and be used to discredit the sphere for years to come, essentially doing more harm than good.

    1. Roissy I can’t stand with an ounce of me. Roosh just pretends I believe. Roissy really believes his shit as far as his political rhetoric.

  83. Fuck it,

    You should have just read ‘The Sixteen Commandments of Poon’ and called it a day.

  84. @YaReally: That was about as concise and comprehensive as a blog comment on this topic could ever possibly be.
    I said earlier that you would be perfect for this, and I was right.

    As far as the shitting on married women thing goes, I’m sure you could re-frame it somehow, but if you don’t think you could pull it off, you gotta help train whoever goes instead.
    PUA is the key to winning this thing. First, the PUA’s success in and of itself disproves feminism. Second, learning PUA is learning how to frame, manipulate, and sell. It’s the same thing as hitting on women, only the goal is persuading people of an idea instead of getting laid.

  85. “So when you extrapolate that to a larger context it’s easy to see how the feminine imperative will readily use men’s default lack of legitimacy for its own purpose. The greatest Threat to the Feminine Imperative is men becoming self-aware of their own sexual market value and the dissemination of information about how the imperative uses this lack of awareness to perpetuate itself.

    “The first recourse to prevent this is male-specific ridicule and derision for even attempting to explain the social constructs of the feminine imperative.”

    …a funny thing about this statement by Rollo is that when I’ve wondered to myself about why Futrelle doesn’t list RM under his list of “boobz” sites, and in spite of the fact that Futrelle is clearly aware of RM since he’s mentioned it in an article, pretty much this exactly is the explanation that satisfies my curiosity. The Feminine Imperative will out, doxx, parrot and indignantly ridicule a hundred manosphere sites before it takes on RM. This site is a poison pill to the whole enterprise.

  86. On a somewhat unrelated note- if you want to see what western men have become, check out the movie Liberal Arts.

    Spoiler alert!

    A 35 year old man turns down a virginal 19 year old hottie to bang his 50 something scotch swilling battleax ex professor, and finally ends up with a somewhat homely “age appropriate” (he actually uses those words) librarian.

    The highlight of the movie was when the professor literally kicks him out of bed after sex.

    I have had a few dating moments that I’m not proud of, but never in my life have I turned down a blatant offer of sex with a hot young woman while sitting on her bed.

    What’s the saying? Oh yea…..I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.

  87. This is a fight to the death make no mistake about it.

    This wasn’t a battle nor a skirmish. Not even a fray, melee or scuffle.

    Just the merest hint of a tiff.

    When they turn their full guns on the manosphere, and everyone can be sure its coming, they will be ruthless. Just look at how politicians and criminals are looked at in the MSM as an indication of how it will go down.

    And they won’t be necessarily turning their guns to the strongest first to discredit and frame.

    Any qualms or second thoughts, any skeletons in the closet will be ruthlessly exposed again and again.

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