Men in Love

Dalrock had an interesting post last week – She’s the Victim – and as is the nature of Dal’s conversation the post served as the tree trunk for various branches of very interesting off-shoot discussion. Starviolet, a regular commenter (some would say troll) dropped what was a seemingly innocuous question:

“Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?”

As would be expected, the male responses to this and her followup comments ranged from mild annoyance of her naiveté to disbelief of her sincerity with regards to her “want to know.” However, her original wonderment as to whether men did in fact know when a woman doesn’t love them, I think, carries more weight than most guys (even manosphere men) realize. So I thought I’d recount my comments and the discussion here.

Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?

No, they can’t.

Why? Because men want to believe that they can be happy, and sexually satisfied, and appreciated, and loved, and respected by a woman for who he is. It is men who are the real romantics, not women, but it is the grand design of hypergamy that men believe it is women who are the romantic ones.

Hypergamy, by its nature, defines love for women in opportunistic terms, leaving men as the only objective arbiters of what love is for themselves. So yes, men can’t tell when a woman doesn’t love them, because they want to believe women can love them in the ways they think they could.

From Women in Love:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

HeiligKo responds:

All right, I keep hoping your rule #6 is wrong, but it hasn’t proven to be. So is the big lie that men miss not that women can provide this, but that we don’t invest this energy into fellow men? That we don’t find men we can be vulnerable with, so that we are emotionally prepared for the trials that women will create in our homes. Is this why so many women tend to isolate their husbands or boyfriends from their male friends early on in marriage or dating?

Presuming Starviolet was genuinely confused (and I’m half-inclined to think she is) this is exactly the source of Starviolet’s confusion. Women’s solipsism prevents them from realizing that men would even have a differing concept of love than how a woman perceives love. Thus her question, “can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?”

I don’t necessarily think it’s a ‘big lie’, it’s just a lack of mutuality on either gender’s concept of love. If it’s a ‘lie’ at all it’s one men prefer to tell themselves.

Bridging the Gap

Later in the discussion Jacquie (who is one of the two female writers to make my blogroll) brought up another interesting aspect of bridging the lack of mutuality between either gender’s concepts of love:

If it is beyond what a woman is capable of, therefore even if a woman recognizes this incapacity in herself, is there no way to compensate? What if a woman truly desires to try to move beyond this? Does she just consider it a hopeless matter and do nothing? Or is it something she should strive for continuously with the hope that she can at least move somewhat closer to this idealized love? Is it even too much for her to comprehend?

As I was telling HeligKo, it’s more a lack of mutuality on either gender’s concept of love. Starviolet’s question about whether a man can determine when a woman doesn’t love him goes much deeper than she’s aware of. I think a lot of what men go through in their blue pill beta days – the frustration, the anger, the denial, the deprivation, the sense that he’s been sold a fantasy that no woman has ever made good upon – all that is rooted in a fundamental belief that some woman, any woman, out there knows just how he needs to be loved and all he has to do is find her and embody what he’s been told she will expect of him when he does.

So he finds a woman, who says and shows him that she loves him, but not in the manner he’s had all this time in his head. Her love is based on qualifications and is far more conditional than what he’d been led to believe, or convinced himself, love should be between them. Her love seems duplicitous, ambiguous, and seemingly, too easily lost in comparison to what he’d been taught for so long is how a woman would love him when he found her.

So he spends his monogamous efforts in ‘building their relationship’ into one where she loves him according to his concept, but it never happens. It’s an endless tail-chase of maintaining her affections and complying with her concept of love while making occasional efforts to draw her into his concept of love. The constant placating to her to maintain her love conflicts with the neediness of how he’d like to be loved is a hypergamic recipe for disaster, so when she falls out of love with him he literally doesn’t know that she no longer loves him. His logical response then is to pick up the old conditions of love she had for him when they first got together, but none of that works now because they are based on obligation, not genuine desire. Love, like desire, cannot be negotiated.

It took me a long time, and was a very tough part of my own unplugging when I finally came to terms with what I thought about love and how it’s conveyed isn’t universal between the genders. It took some very painful slap-in-the-face doses of reality for this to click, but I think I have a healthier understanding of it now. It was one of the most contradictory truths I had to unlearn, but it fundamentally changed my perspective of the relations I have with my wife, daughter, mother and my understanding of past girlfriends.

If it is beyond what a woman is capable of, therefore even if a woman recognizes this incapacity in herself, is there no way to compensate? What if a woman truly desires to try to move beyond this? Does she just consider it a hopeless matter and do nothing?

I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible, but it would take a woman to be self-aware enough that men and women have different concepts of their ideal love to begin with, which is, improbable. The biggest hurdle isn’t so much in women recognizing this, but rather in men recognizing it themselves. So, hypothetically, yes you could, but the problem then becomes one of the genuineness of that desire. Love, like desire, is only legitimate when it’s uncoerced and unobligated. Men believe in love for the sake of love, women love opportunistically. It’s not that either subscribe to unconditional love, it’s that both gender’s conditions for love differ.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] and a book written, my three most popular posts have been the Love series – Women in Love, Men in Love and Of Love and War. Though my SMV graph gets the most link backs, these are easily the most viewed […]

Some Dubious Dude
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I think there is a degree of truth to what you propose, but I also feel you’re making an awful lot of generalizations. What about a woman who for example, deals with mental illness, like bipolar. Who hasn’t been given much of a chance to recieve love from others. Who lives under a stigma that she’s not worthy of that love cause of her mental problems. Who isn’t in a possition to CHOOSE a man based on qualifications, but unstead, if she seeks a steady successful relationship, must settle for whatever man possessing the traits necessary to endure such a… Read more »

infostronomist
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I agree with you Kate. I am going out from a painful love story, in which for the first time after meeting dozens of women I thought to have found the real love. It was true, but some complications and In my opinion , not enough experience and belief from the other partner, put this love to an end. I must say that there were so many things in which we were compatible, what you define as “sexy”, but in the end I loved her soul. And her soul is something that still expresses itself on a wheelchair. I loved… Read more »

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[…] want in terms of love and relationships and what women are able to provide. (read this[1] , then this[2] , then this[3] for more detail) Taking the red pill involves the understanding and acceptance […]

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[…] Besides not playing the game, what he did wrong was allowed her to be seen as the boss. He, was not her boyfriend in that moment. He, became a extra and prop in her movie. You see, women complain when the relationship turns into a business but, they are very unaware of the regularity that they are accustomed to 24/7. Even if you are not in the 9-10 category as far as women are concern. They still receive treatment that they have taken as reality over once and still is a idea. Like I pointed out in my last post with the help of this… Read more »

Nick
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Nick
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Oh god…I’ve been dating my girlfriend for eight months and I thought she was wonderul and everything in our relationship was perfect…but now I’m scared to stay with her because of somehing like this happening. And I’m only 15!

sam
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sam
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I think your comment about men being the real romantics is ethnocentric. When I travel to South America it is the exact opposite the ideal for women is beauty and extreme loving. A girl might say she is very “entregada” which means delivered, she might call her boyfriend “mi vida” (my life), and tell him “eso es todo tuya” pointing out her body(this is all yours)..They tend to fall in love quickly and deeply. Men there aren’t happy unless they have 4 gfs. When the men say romantic things its just game to get a girl and when he has… Read more »

Anonymus
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oh man… oh my… I have been searching for answers for half a year, always came back to thinking about what happenned and thinking about love and man – woman partnership in general. And THIS IS IT! This is exactly about what happened and jesus christ after half a year I finally understand! It is hard to accept this, it feels like giving up on ideals but man, there is so much truth in this. So seriously, thank you for granting me peace!

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Lydia
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This is written by someone who does not know unconditional love and I am sad for him, and I am sad that he assumes that all women are this way. I loved a man so deeply and so unconditionally that he could do no wrong. There were no conditions, and he could do no wrong. I made all the money, but would have happily given it all up and lived in a shoebox for him. I thought everything he did and said was fantastic. I caught him cheating on me, and still I forgave. We went to counseling and I… Read more »

Rational Woman
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Rational Male(s), First sorry for my keyboart. Please. I’m a woman & I kan’t keep reating feminist shit blaming men for all their problems & I’m not able to tigest the female bashing in this either, ewen if it’s supportet by the experinkes of many negatiwe maskulists ( like feminists ). There are few kouples in the worlt that experienke true love for many reasons. so in those kouples, the women blame the men & men blame women. You’re all talking like none of the women in your life work, the onus of earning is all on the man &… Read more »

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[…] Men in Love September 10, 2012 link […]

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[…] Women in Love, Men in Love […]

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[…] Most men’s concept of intimacy, like love, is shaped by his Blue Pill conditioning. The key to real intimacy is understanding how it can grow and be sustained in a Red Pill context. Chasing after an intimacy defined by the feminine suffers from the same misdirection of presuming women’s concept of love (opportunism) agrees with men’s (idealism). […]

Amber
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So basically you don’t know how to make a woman happy.

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[…] I wrote Women in Love and the followups, Men in Love and Of Love and War, I described men’s concept of love as […]

Joliano Souza
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Okay, both texts (Women In Love and Men In Love) are about how women will not love men the way men wanted women to love them. No text talk about how men also don’t love women the way they wanted men to love them. How both have ridiculous expectations and are too blind to see each other as humans, flawed as themselves. Men are the ones that leave their wives when sick the most. Men won’t love women when they become ill, and women wish men would do that. Men will not love a woman they don’t find “sexy enough”… Read more »

Vera
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Hello, I’m a woman and I’m really surprised to read all of these comments and to read this article! I’m very surprised, because, I have actually come to the conclusion, due to past hurtful experiences, that men do not want to be loved! Because the minute that I show affection, deep loyalty to a man— he changes! He starts acting like I’m around to pay for all the hurt that other women in the past did to him! It’s so frightening! I am really surprised to read all of this stuff here, because it’s so opposite to what I’ve known… Read more »

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pauli12
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I was married for 29 years to a man who got hurt before we got married and couldn’t work again. I stuck by his side, he made the decisions and I worked every day teaching kindergarten. All I asked was that when I got home for him to just smile at me and treat me well. Mostly he started in on something negative as soon as I walked through the door. He was passive aggressive to me and finally after 29 years my love for him took a nose dive and I couldn’t take it any more. Just wondering…. does… Read more »

Kelsey
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I feel for a lot of the men posting their reflections of this article. Though, I’d like to say, as from a females prospective, that women can love unconditionally. However, just as there are few men who can love unconditionally there are few women who can do that. I also think that to love “unconditionally” takes years of sacrificing for each other and being truly best friends and communicating through your flaws and seeing/accepting each other’s imperfections and working through them. Then again. What do I know! I’m only 18 and am Keeping my fingers crossed for a relationship/ marriage/… Read more »

Driver
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It’s always hilarious to read these comments left by women who don’t agree (and they always have the same defense or excuse)….NAWALT (Not all women are like that).

Yet, the feminist imperative has taught women (over decades) that men are all the same, right? Give me a break. I know some of this stuff (red pill) is hard for men to swallow and come to grips with – after being fed a lifetime of what I consider ‘lies’. But, listening to women (and watching the hamster spin) is too entertaining.

Bolin
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Dear Bitter Males, Buck up, please, and get over yourselves. I’ve read many interesting comments from you fellas regarding your love of the “feeling” she gave you or “herself,” how disillusioned you are to find her love imperfect, how far you crash to the earth. Are you still in love with these women? Still? Just as much? No? So there are at least these basic conditions to your love. You loved her as long as you believed she loved you unconditionally. Regardless of your flaws or her flaws. Did you love her flaws? If you say yes you are lying… Read more »

Alex31416
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Very interesting discussions on a topic that needs to be stripped and examined in the cold light of truth. A lot of the discussion concerns defining the slippery, mercurial concept of “love.” What many have managed to dismantle–correctly, in my view–is the concomitant relationship of “love” with “being happy.” Bingo, gentlemen…the “love” part is contingent upon the “happiness” part. I render it to something as simple as this: if you don’t understand what constitutes happiness FOR YOURSELF, there is no way you will be able to participate in or derive “love” while in a relationship; in other words, happiness comes… Read more »

Todd C
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Wow… what an eye opening read. I have been lost in the Blue world my whole life. Almost everything I have read here has pegged me to the core. My confusions and misunderstandings. My inability to recognize the reality of differences between the sexes pertaining to their views on Love, being Loved and reciprocating Love and other needs of a relationship. I am shocked at my own brain washed uneducated view of relationships. Funny thing is that the answers were always staring me in the face. Thanks to everyone so much for your comments and insights. You are so correct.… Read more »

Anjelica Boyd
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Excuse me but women are the ones that tell men their opinion, then for pure fun make the twisted puppet dance the best sissy waltz all along men’s place is set by the real professional masters of men’s fate. It’s people like you that engendered the need for the soon to hit secret cleansing of vile chumps coup already victorious due to delusional Neanderthals easy to drive but cheap malfunctioncursed remote control cars, looks like it’s driving itself and again is led by nose. The put Downs of the female come from jealousy of our dignified grace and gentle beauty… Read more »

haunted trilobite
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Alex31416 has left a comment that deals with an aspect of relationships that is rarely addressed. We’re certainly ‘out beyond the new frontier’ in terms of current human behaviour, but it wasn’t always like this

Caren
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I’ve been with one man for five years that started off as a platonic friendship that was promising to encounter more. After two years I told him how I felt and that I loved him. He has no response for me, he just has a surprised look that told me he was not sure. Recently he told me in return that he loves me too. After time apart and time to think clearly, I find that the younger man finds it harder to grasp the concept of saying it and showing it like women do. Women are easily able to… Read more »

lazydaisiez
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This left me speechless. I am a 21 year old female and I have NEVER done any of these things. Conditional love is exactly that no matter who is the person displaying it. I loved my boyfriend of 4 years UNCONDITIONALLY. I did everything i could to make sure he was happy. I was the only one with a job and i supported him because i wanted him to be happy and comfortable and satisfied. I later learned that while i was working he had been having an “emotional affair” with another girl, saying things like he wasn’t good enough… Read more »

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[…] I explain how women hold an opportunistic concept of love, while men hold an idealistic one, the resistance to accept that observable, behavioral, reality is rooted in a blank-slate belief […]

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[…] (Enlace original en ingles) […]

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[…] in the same way that men idealistically want to believe women mutually share their concept of love for love’s sake (and free from the conditions of their Burden of Performance), women are mistaken in believing […]

iotasirrah
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It depends a lot on how a woman is raised in the family. My mum was a foreigner (not not a mail order bride, but from good class). But I tell you, my mother never ever wavered from her husband each time he lost a job, or had to declare bankruptcy due to business troubles. ALWAYS STUCK AROUND, from the good times to the bad times, never EVER blaming the husband for anything. Always supportive, never spent money wildly, never asked money to buy frivoulous things. There were no marital fights in my family, not about the relationship or about… Read more »

Anon
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source pls

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weminuche45
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I just wanted to add a counter to the hypergamy song above. If anyone knows the real answers to these questions, with any woman, I’d bet all my assets 50 cent does. But still, it’s a great example of the idealized love men hope for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMhlvbOFaM 50 Cent – “21 Questions” You drive me crazy shorty I Need to see you and feel you next to me I provide everything you need and I Like your smile I don’t wanna see you cry Got some questions that I got to ask and I Hope you can come up with the… Read more »

EbonFelis
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From reading this article and the comments below, I think these men need to ask themselves where their image of ideal love comes from, and if it is realistic. Does it come from your mother, society, dogma, etc…? But more importantly, I think these men need to ask themselves why they feel they need a woman’s love to validate them. In other words, no man’s or woman’s happiness should be dependent upon another person. If you place your happiness in another person’s hands, you will inevitably be disappointed. It boils down to self love, but society grooms us to seek… Read more »

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[…] to want in terms of love and relationships and what women are able to provide. (read this, then this, then this for more detail) Taking the red pill involves the understanding and acceptance that due […]

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[…] stirring of my hormones. But the largest part was because I thought they were the gateway to the ideal love all men desire — loyalty and unconditional love. A type of love that I now realize a woman can only give to […]

Alex
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Alex
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So what does this mean exactly? That any moment of weakness or vulnerability I demonstrate, either intentionally or unintentionally, means I’m basically at risk of being dropped like a hot potato? That as soon as they stop getting what they want out of me I’m just a used up tissue on the floor of a seedy motel? This is both illuminating and depressing. I assumed that the problems in faced with women in regards to this mentality were specific to the ones I dated. To know they’re all this way without exception gives me a bitter sense of resenting disinterest.… Read more »

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[…] We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love. […]

David Woodman
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I am 24, and am in the process of falling for a woman right now. She is 10 years older than I am, and has a much higher paying job, and she is also asian (I’m a typical white dude). I can tell that she really likes me, and I really like her. I’ve never seen myself settling down but for the first time, I feel like it would be possible with her. Now, after reading this (ive been an on/off red piller for a couple of years now), I am questioning that. One thing I want to ask for… Read more »

Andrew
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@David Woodman I do not think its true that AWALT, that being said I do think a lot of them are though. There is a lot of truth that the guys posting here are going through recent break ups or struggle with women. So many people turn to here as a coping mechanism. However just like finding out Santa isn’t real, finding out that love is opportunistic and not unconditional is a tough pill to swallow. We are just as guilty of it too. Think of your past relationships, would you have dated her if she was fat? If she… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@Andrew No, AWALT are like that except for exceedingly rare exceptions because biology. The exceptions are also because biology, where biology went weird and fucked up genetics. Where women ACT against their biology, it’s because some man TRAINED them to do so. And no, men and women aren’t “human” when it comes to mating (including both sex and relationship dynamics). Men and women are DIVERGENT when it comes to mating. Love and romanticism is a great product to sell, but if you can see it for what it really is, you’ll realize that relationships are no different than a business… Read more »

Dana
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Dana
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My sister recently told me…if you want it your way, be single. You have to realize that when you get into a relationship it WILL NOT be what you want and what you expect. The better you can be at communicating your needs in healthy ways, the better chance you have at being happy in your relationship. I think this is why self-reflection and self-work along with great communication are key for a successful relationship. If the man can communicate his desires/expectations, the woman will be happy to oblige if she loves him. If the woman can communicate her desires/expectations,… Read more »

Amyroo
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3 things: 1: I laughed out loud when I read this: “So he finds a woman, who says and shows him that she loves him, but not in the manner he’s had all this time in his head. Her love is based on qualifications and is far more conditional than what he’d been led to believe, or convinced himself, love should be between them.” at how pitiful it is. This is why men need to have several sisters or girl cousins they grew up with, and to ALWAYS check out the woman with the women in the family who do… Read more »

Sofia Blade
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BullShit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am still in love with my husband even after 2 1/2 years apart, even after him rejecting me out of fear of being vulnerable, putting walls between us, even after him cutting contact with me. I will love that man till I die.

Sal Paradise
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If you are really strong enough to love a woman, and essentially take whatever she gives, you can make this work. You get sex a couple times a week. You will get also some conversation and cooperation and company around the house. Neither of you should get too dependent, you are not each other’s psychologist. When she is not in the mood or talking shit, you should not react, except if you feel you have to call her out. Fix nothing, Merely go on with daily life and do your own thing then, preserve your independent happiness which is always… Read more »

Bernard Scotland
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Bernard Scotland
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@Dean

You speak my mind. Leftty animals are responsible for cultural fall. But their deeds will be punished.

abc
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abc
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“Men believe in love for the sake of love, women love opportunistically. It’s not that either subscribe to unconditional love, it’s that both gender’s conditions for love differ.”

Isn’t love for the sake of love another phrase for unconditional love?

I’m not so sure men believe in love for the sake of love. I think this may be the point of the article. Men are selfish in their desire for love as much as women are, only that selfishness manifests differently.

rsd abc
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Sexual love (eros) is selfish by nature. Because men and women have different essential needs from the other sex, that selfishness manifests differently. A woman desires a powerful man who is committed to his life beyond her, yet nonetheless gives her some of his attention. The less a man needs her, the more valuable his attention seems to her and the more she falls for him. Think of the guy who fawns over her and falls down on his knee to propose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnyKkA05nYw). He got rejected because he valued her too much. From the man’s perspective though, what he wants… Read more »

Sri
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The fewer the needs, the more abundant the love. That’s why parental love is the closest you can get to unconditional love (apart from your dog). What is termed unconditional is actually love in abundance. No one can deny that women have more needs than a single man. That’s why the betaization process happens for any man in an LTR or a marriage, but there’s no male equivalent (it doesn’t serve the man in any way to make his wife unattractive, but he will need her to support him and his biology will want to impregnate multiple women as it… Read more »

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[…] essay is written as a response to an interesting article over at The Rational Male, “Men in Love.” I am interested especially in the following […]

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[…] oneself that a man’s spouse is necessarily on the same page as they are with respect to his idealistic concept of love (versus a woman’s opportunistic concept of love). This is where most Beta men get themselves […]

Sam
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Sam
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Wonderful article, and one that I have returned to several times.

I’ve long struggled with the seemingly hopeless ramifications of the truth: “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.”

Because love is what it’s all about for me. And if I can’t find that vital love from a mate, then where can I find it?

In the end, I think it has to come from oneself.

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