Men in Love

Dalrock had an interesting post last week – She’s the Victim – and as is the nature of Dal’s conversation the post served as the tree trunk for various branches of very interesting off-shoot discussion. Starviolet, a regular commenter (some would say troll) dropped what was a seemingly innocuous question:

“Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?”

As would be expected, the male responses to this and her followup comments ranged from mild annoyance of her naiveté to disbelief of her sincerity with regards to her “want to know.” However, her original wonderment as to whether men did in fact know when a woman doesn’t love them, I think, carries more weight than most guys (even manosphere men) realize. So I thought I’d recount my comments and the discussion here.

Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?

No, they can’t.

Why? Because men want to believe that they can be happy, and sexually satisfied, and appreciated, and loved, and respected by a woman for who he is. It is men who are the real romantics, not women, but it is the grand design of hypergamy that men believe it is women who are the romantic ones.

Hypergamy, by its nature, defines love for women in opportunistic terms, leaving men as the only objective arbiters of what love is for themselves. So yes, men can’t tell when a woman doesn’t love them, because they want to believe women can love them in the ways they think they could.

From Women in Love:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

HeiligKo responds:

All right, I keep hoping your rule #6 is wrong, but it hasn’t proven to be. So is the big lie that men miss not that women can provide this, but that we don’t invest this energy into fellow men? That we don’t find men we can be vulnerable with, so that we are emotionally prepared for the trials that women will create in our homes. Is this why so many women tend to isolate their husbands or boyfriends from their male friends early on in marriage or dating?

Presuming Starviolet was genuinely confused (and I’m half-inclined to think she is) this is exactly the source of Starviolet’s confusion. Women’s solipsism prevents them from realizing that men would even have a differing concept of love than how a woman perceives love. Thus her question, “can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?”

I don’t necessarily think it’s a ‘big lie’, it’s just a lack of mutuality on either gender’s concept of love. If it’s a ‘lie’ at all it’s one men prefer to tell themselves.

Bridging the Gap

Later in the discussion Jacquie (who is one of the two female writers to make my blogroll) brought up another interesting aspect of bridging the lack of mutuality between either gender’s concepts of love:

If it is beyond what a woman is capable of, therefore even if a woman recognizes this incapacity in herself, is there no way to compensate? What if a woman truly desires to try to move beyond this? Does she just consider it a hopeless matter and do nothing? Or is it something she should strive for continuously with the hope that she can at least move somewhat closer to this idealized love? Is it even too much for her to comprehend?

As I was telling HeligKo, it’s more a lack of mutuality on either gender’s concept of love. Starviolet’s question about whether a man can determine when a woman doesn’t love him goes much deeper than she’s aware of. I think a lot of what men go through in their blue pill beta days – the frustration, the anger, the denial, the deprivation, the sense that he’s been sold a fantasy that no woman has ever made good upon – all that is rooted in a fundamental belief that some woman, any woman, out there knows just how he needs to be loved and all he has to do is find her and embody what he’s been told she will expect of him when he does.

So he finds a woman, who says and shows him that she loves him, but not in the manner he’s had all this time in his head. Her love is based on qualifications and is far more conditional than what he’d been led to believe, or convinced himself, love should be between them. Her love seems duplicitous, ambiguous, and seemingly, too easily lost in comparison to what he’d been taught for so long is how a woman would love him when he found her.

So he spends his monogamous efforts in ‘building their relationship’ into one where she loves him according to his concept, but it never happens. It’s an endless tail-chase of maintaining her affections and complying with her concept of love while making occasional efforts to draw her into his concept of love. The constant placating to her to maintain her love conflicts with the neediness of how he’d like to be loved is a hypergamic recipe for disaster, so when she falls out of love with him he literally doesn’t know that she no longer loves him. His logical response then is to pick up the old conditions of love she had for him when they first got together, but none of that works now because they are based on obligation, not genuine desire. Love, like desire, cannot be negotiated.

It took me a long time, and was a very tough part of my own unplugging when I finally came to terms with what I thought about love and how it’s conveyed isn’t universal between the genders. It took some very painful slap-in-the-face doses of reality for this to click, but I think I have a healthier understanding of it now. It was one of the most contradictory truths I had to unlearn, but it fundamentally changed my perspective of the relations I have with my wife, daughter, mother and my understanding of past girlfriends.

If it is beyond what a woman is capable of, therefore even if a woman recognizes this incapacity in herself, is there no way to compensate? What if a woman truly desires to try to move beyond this? Does she just consider it a hopeless matter and do nothing?

I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible, but it would take a woman to be self-aware enough that men and women have different concepts of their ideal love to begin with, which is, improbable. The biggest hurdle isn’t so much in women recognizing this, but rather in men recognizing it themselves. So, hypothetically, yes you could, but the problem then becomes one of the genuineness of that desire. Love, like desire, is only legitimate when it’s uncoerced and unobligated. Men believe in love for the sake of love, women love opportunistically. It’s not that either subscribe to unconditional love, it’s that both gender’s conditions for love differ.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

164 comments on “Men in Love

  1. Oh god…I’ve been dating my girlfriend for eight months and I thought she was wonderul and everything in our relationship was perfect…but now I’m scared to stay with her because of somehing like this happening. And I’m only 15!

  2. I think your comment about men being the real romantics is ethnocentric. When I travel to South America it is the exact opposite the ideal for women is beauty and extreme loving. A girl might say she is very “entregada” which means delivered, she might call her boyfriend “mi vida” (my life), and tell him “eso es todo tuya” pointing out her body(this is all yours)..They tend to fall in love quickly and deeply. Men there aren’t happy unless they have 4 gfs. When the men say romantic things its just game to get a girl and when he has the girl he tends to treat her badly, unless she leaves at which point he is begging for her to come back and treating her well again. I think feminisim and success are what changed the culture here, if you look at all the countries that have failed hard and repeatedly in wars(Germany, Russia, Colombia with internal warring), usually along with failed economies, and there you will find the hottest, and best attitude girls in the world. Look at the economic and militarily successful countries(US, Spain-20% of men marry foreigners, England), P ..fugly feminist who won’t give a good man the time of day “what have you done for me lately?”..

    1. The simple fact is that what women consider ‘romantic’ or a romantic gesture is still defined by what a man does to create it for her.

      Women do not generate romance, men do, even when they’re oblivious to creating it.

  3. oh man… oh my… I have been searching for answers for half a year, always came back to thinking about what happenned and thinking about love and man – woman partnership in general. And THIS IS IT! This is exactly about what happened and jesus christ after half a year I finally understand! It is hard to accept this, it feels like giving up on ideals but man, there is so much truth in this. So seriously, thank you for granting me peace!

  4. This is written by someone who does not know unconditional love and I am sad for him, and I am sad that he assumes that all women are this way. I loved a man so deeply and so unconditionally that he could do no wrong. There were no conditions, and he could do no wrong. I made all the money, but would have happily given it all up and lived in a shoebox for him. I thought everything he did and said was fantastic. I caught him cheating on me, and still I forgave. We went to counseling and I still loved him. He cheated again, and again, until my heart was so shattered that I could not take the pain. But, yes, I loved him through it all because I could not stop. I still do. But, yes, I walked away.

  5. Rational Male(s),
    First sorry for my keyboart.
    Please. I’m a woman & I kan’t keep reating feminist shit blaming men for all their problems & I’m not able to tigest the female bashing in this either, ewen if it’s supportet by the experinkes of many negatiwe maskulists ( like feminists ). 🙂

    There are few kouples in the worlt that experienke true love for many reasons. so in those kouples, the women blame the men & men blame women. You’re all talking like none of the women in your life work, the onus of earning is all on the man & when he stops, women stop loving him, so women only like the man as he earns her breat ? . Is this a blog from the 17th kentury ?

    also, in many houses the women are not apprekiatet that they earn equal to the man plus take kare of the householt khores more than the man. if they fall ill, the men in their life won’t kare for them that mukh as she’s praktikally “useless” for him anymore.
    I also saw where women just use men for money, like what the post says, but it’s not ALL women.
    both are wrong if they apply to it a whole genter.

    I know a kouple ( the woman is a housewife ), the man got tiabetes after 28 yrs of their marital life, his wife woult not ask for a kostly gift from him in their 28 yrs of marital life.He too spent most of his money on books, learning & on poor people helping them to stuty.( He’s a professor himself ). They are in love as mukh as they were when they got marriet, got 2 offsprings.
    Now the man got a kitney problem, he neglekts it & fokusses on work.finally he loses his work ( he fell too ill to work anymore ). the woman has to spent the few sawings on his treatment, plus sell her parents property share for the treatment.she’s left with 0 money. Yet all she wants is for him to get a kure, taking kare of him 24 hrs without sleep for weeks. finally she lost him.
    she wasn’t unhappy that he left her with no money, but that he’s no more.

    I know women with huspants who lost work or kan’t work for many reasons like illness or poor market. These women earn plus also take kare of householt khores & stay true to their men in their low times as well.

    if you want to argue this way, there will also be an argument that men only like women who look beautiful. we know there r exkeptions to this. there are also exkeptions to the women only like men for their earning.

    please stop spewing wenom on a whole genter ‘koz you kame akross what 30 women this way formulating your own theories explaining a whole genter ? I kame akross men who kan be labellet jerks, but i won’t kall all men jerks for this.

    I earn my liwing & I won’t marry a man so my “earning” will inkrease, but only if I kan like him for his true kharakter. there are few but genuine women who kan love men the way they want, like there are few men who are kapable of loving women they want.

    yes, there are few. be patient to fint them.

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  8. Okay, both texts (Women In Love and Men In Love) are about how women will not love men the way men wanted women to love them. No text talk about how men also don’t love women the way they wanted men to love them. How both have ridiculous expectations and are too blind to see each other as humans, flawed as themselves.
    Men are the ones that leave their wives when sick the most. Men won’t love women when they become ill, and women wish men would do that. Men will not love a woman they don’t find “sexy enough” – even when he isn’t sexy at all as well and actually already out of her league, her already being more attractive them him… but he still wishes she would be even more beautiful, cause he believe he deserves more. Women wanted men to love them for their values and heart the most, but men won’t do that. So you see, that goes both ways.
    So course, I’m generalizing here. There are actually MANY men that would never leave their wives when their wives become ill and aren’t entitled and judge women’s appearance that harshly, living in an imaginary world where women are more valuable the more they look like models. Just like there are plenty of women who would never subscribe to that “opportunistic” garbage. Both can be hypergamous when looking for someone much more intelligent, rich, attractive, etc. but there are plenty of men and women who are fair enough.

  9. Hello,

    I’m a woman and I’m really surprised to read all of these comments and to read this article! I’m very surprised, because, I have actually come to the conclusion, due to past hurtful experiences, that men do not want to be loved! Because the minute that I show affection, deep loyalty to a man— he changes! He starts acting like I’m around to pay for all the hurt that other women in the past did to him! It’s so frightening! I am really surprised to read all of this stuff here, because it’s so opposite to what I’ve known and the conclusion I’ve come down to. I concluded that you can’t let yourself fall in love with a man, because the moment that you do— that’s the moment that you lose his desire and attention. It’s like a man doesn’t want to be loved; a man just wants to chase and feel like he’s not good enough. And that’s it. I think that a lot of women have had my experience, too. For example, there are quite a few relationship gurus that give advice to women who’s relationships have fallen through because the men just stopped! Stopped caring, stopped loving, stopped trying… I can’t speak for them or for how they treated their men… but what I can say for myself is that I have been hurt whenever I have begun to truly love selflessly. I do not agree that all women love opportunistically. My mother was the bread winner in our family and my father cheated on her while sitting at the table eating her homecooked meals. It’s not true that all women are incapable; that is just something that someone decided when he became so fed up with his own experiences that he decided to mark off the whole female race as being like it, so he could then reassure himself that it is of no fault on his part.

    xxoxo,
    Vera

  10. I was married for 29 years to a man who got hurt before we got married and couldn’t work again. I stuck by his side, he made the decisions and I worked every day teaching kindergarten.
    All I asked was that when I got home for him to just smile at me and treat me well.
    Mostly he started in on something negative as soon as I walked through the door.
    He was passive aggressive to me and finally after 29 years my love for him took a nose dive and I couldn’t take it any more.

    Just wondering…. does this fit in the mode of what I am hearing on this post?
    I don’t feel at all like the woman who are talked about here.

  11. I feel for a lot of the men posting their reflections of this article. Though, I’d like to say, as from a females prospective, that women can love unconditionally. However, just as there are few men who can love unconditionally there are few women who can do that. I also think that to love “unconditionally” takes years of sacrificing for each other and being truly best friends and communicating through your flaws and seeing/accepting each other’s imperfections and working through them. Then again. What do I know! I’m only 18 and am Keeping my fingers crossed for a relationship/ marriage/ mate like that!

  12. It’s always hilarious to read these comments left by women who don’t agree (and they always have the same defense or excuse)….NAWALT (Not all women are like that).

    Yet, the feminist imperative has taught women (over decades) that men are all the same, right? Give me a break. I know some of this stuff (red pill) is hard for men to swallow and come to grips with – after being fed a lifetime of what I consider ‘lies’. But, listening to women (and watching the hamster spin) is too entertaining.

  13. Dear Bitter Males,

    Buck up, please, and get over yourselves. I’ve read many interesting comments from you fellas regarding your love of the “feeling” she gave you or “herself,” how disillusioned you are to find her love imperfect, how far you crash to the earth. Are you still in love with these women? Still? Just as much? No?

    So there are at least these basic conditions to your love. You loved her as long as you believed she loved you unconditionally. Regardless of your flaws or her flaws. Did you love her flaws? If you say yes you are lying to yourself.

    I mean the little things that disappointed or irritated you when your relationship was even at its best. You loved her, but not her flaws. Somehow you expected something greater from her. You expected her to love you and your flaws. To love you for them, even.

    Humans do not love that way. We were not built for it.

    We were build with an evolutionary imperative to survive. Biologically we do not seek out weak mates. Men and women BOTH seek out mates that they admire, that they want on their team, that they trust enough to build a home with. If all of the traits you admire in her (they don’t have to be physical) went out the door you would not still love her. She would have changed from the person you promised to love forever into someone unrecognizable. The same with women.

    Love and lasting relationships take HARD WORK, on both sides. If one person gives up, it can be nearly impossible for the other person to find the motivation to keep striving. From the rancor I’ve read under this article, I’m guessing some guys found themselves in this situation. I’m not saying “not all women” and I’m not saying “not all men.”

    I’m saying get over yourself because you are an imperfect human being incapable of loving or being loved perfectly.

    Trying to love or giving up on love is everyone’s choice, but for God’s sake stop whining about it ya pansy. Long-term love is TOUGH. It takes mental and moral fortitude to make long term relationships work. I’m sorry you didn’t find it in your partner. Blaming just one gender for a human condition, and giving up on love altogether simply lets the rest of us know that you aren’t tough enough to hack love either.

    So, yes, stand aside. Let stronger men than you step forward into the breach. Many will be hurt, some will be betrayed, but some will find that love worth striving for.

  14. Very interesting discussions on a topic that needs to be stripped and examined in the cold light of truth. A lot of the discussion concerns defining the slippery, mercurial concept of “love.” What many have managed to dismantle–correctly, in my view–is the concomitant relationship of “love” with “being happy.” Bingo, gentlemen…the “love” part is contingent upon the “happiness” part.

    I render it to something as simple as this: if you don’t understand what constitutes happiness FOR YOURSELF, there is no way you will be able to participate in or derive “love” while in a relationship; in other words, happiness comes from within. I’d even parse it further: it’s the ability to find SATISFACTION in human interactions that leads to the security of self-confidence and esteem that moves a human being into a higher plane of consciousness. Psychologist Abraham Maslow wrote extensively about this in his discussion of a hierarchy, a progression of needs that moves the human animal from that of survival behavior alone to that of deeply profound conceptual pursuits that free mankind from the binds of groveling and competing, and moves us into transcendence.

    While I believe some women have managed to move into a transcendental framework, clearly the enormous majority is stuck in survival-need to be respected-need to feel a part of something existence.

  15. Wow… what an eye opening read. I have been lost in the Blue world my whole life. Almost everything I have read here has pegged me to the core. My confusions and misunderstandings. My inability to recognize the reality of differences between the sexes pertaining to their views on Love, being Loved and reciprocating Love and other needs of a relationship. I am shocked at my own brain washed uneducated view of relationships. Funny thing is that the answers were always staring me in the face. Thanks to everyone so much for your comments and insights. You are so correct. We all have our filters. What helped me the most is Learning the concept of the Blue Pill/Red Pill. What a way to articulate such a complex and ever transitioning topic as Unconditional Love and the capacity or incapacity thereof to attain such a goal. As of today I am now enjoying a whole new view of women and myself. But I am saddened as well. I began to think about the time wasted in this mind set and how I am going to have to relearn a lot of things. Wow wow wow. We truly are creatures of habit and easily influenced. It’s going be a struggle to get my head out of Blue and into Red.

    I have always been a give all type of man. Kind hearted, passionate, giving of myself first, going the extra extra mile for the one I Love… With my children it’s a no brainer but my relationships have been a living nightmare. And OMG the expectations I had for relationships where @@#$&#^”d up. I truly believed in the win/win scenario for LTR. I have sacrificed my passions, talents, monies, health and my years for a Concept?? How messed up is that? Everything I have read here pertaining to how women view Love is 100% Correct and based on my experiences to boot. To know that I “Missed it” all this time is not inly depressing but the more I read the more my heart sank into my stomach. I literally became sick with the realization that I cannot believe I waited this long to really look for answers on the subject.

    FYI I am a 43 year old male, divorced twice and remarried again. My prior 2 marriages (ended by me) were wrought with selfishness, deceit, dishonesty, vanity, narcissistic behavior and in the end infidelity and greed. I have recognized that I was open to this happening because of my giving nature and the expectations I had for reciprocation. One thing I have learned about women (and I’m sure can apply to men as well) is that “in the beginning how they represent themselves is NOT who they are” when faced with the necessity of finding a suitable man. Of course there are many factors in my previous statement that qualify the comment.

    I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR ALL WOMEN HERE… With that said please read on 🙂

    Women are looking for equality, status, support, and security first (more so single mothers) and then intimacy with the exception of the one night stand or FWB scenario and even then if the man and mood strikes her right she may switch on the love electricity. Attraction, usually being the first qualifier for both sexes yet for different reasons, is just the beginning. Romance and Love for women are only a prerequisite during courtship and later discarded as a non necessity to keeping a relationship solvent. I have experienced this in my past marriages and am currently experiencing it in my current marriage. They (women) behave in such a manner that leads a man to believe they are what they appear—-“what he is looking for”— if he suits her. I have yet to meet (date) a woman who, after getting to know her through time, genuinely presented herself (like and dislikes, formidable opinions etc) in a true fashion. All of them gave me what they intuitively knew I was looking for on top of what I communicated verbally I was looking for.

    I am not discounting the possibility of emotional reflection (mirroring) or self imposition of a mans wants onto a potential mate. In fact this happens a vast majority of the time with both sexes. The problem is that women are so damned intuitive and they know (I would even argue to say its biologically ingrained) that men are running on their hormones during this time. If the need is strong enough to find someone she becomes what he wants for a while. A courtship if you will. Women will do things (even things they SECRETLY DO NOT ENJOY) to keep the interest of the man they want as long as it takes to get them committed. Unfortunately the vast majority of us men do not have the mental fortitude (Horse sense), experience and many times Patience to stick it out long enough to see a person for who they are.

    I will leave you with this——– After reading this blog I felt a sigh of relief that I had been searching for years to attain——“UNDERSTANDING”…

  16. Excuse me but women are the ones that tell men their opinion, then for pure fun make the twisted puppet dance the best sissy waltz all along men’s place is set by the real professional masters of men’s fate. It’s people like you that engendered the need for the soon to hit secret cleansing of vile chumps coup already victorious due to delusional Neanderthals easy to drive but cheap malfunctioncursed remote control cars, looks like it’s driving itself and again is led by nose. The put Downs of the female come from jealousy of our dignified grace and gentle beauty causing the angry barbaric acts women have always taken and given men comfort when they cry on our laps about their inability for civilized behavior, yes you abuse we coddle you Cuz, women logically know you can’t kick a dog for being a dog, and you friend are the confused dogs we own but never show our weak chattel position is set up by stronger warriors content to run the world from the wife’s behind the fool seat. Perfect example of the unseen truth. The true Clinton supepower leader was Hillary, hence the adage men can’t read saying behind every great man stands an even greater woman. standing behind was our.way to fool the marionettes into today’s easy to operate humiliation bound toys called the bread winners and women’s guide to their inferiority training. True clods unite, it makes it easy if u gather like slaughter marked bovine rejects who never see the axe they soon eat. Beware the men that know the real order of things, they’re just wishing they could tell but Hey,.if men could give us serious notice there would never have been need to outwit the witless who think outwitting someone is violent rape, so I guess you and the testosterone infected bags of vile toxic waste dump on legs that erodes everything it even looks at. Beyond the proven male inferiority to females which is scientific in study and the results of the true ruling class can’t be changed. You are jealous little slobs we can mold shape and give or take their thoughts that they conquered the evil witches that made the accuser fuck the dog, like we would ever do that to the dog. The truth is the only way we stay in the drivers seat. Envy is the best men can do for their secret wish to be us. I am married to a man of whosoever delusional security of my devotion but Hey, I am the rallying general for the new world order that’s coming without any fear of battle, men don’t see us like we trained them so it’s a wham bam you are the ma’am now victorious at the start conquering Amazonian return. Amazonian life just went underground so men would be stroked into docility and either gets to be a indentured servant or a spot in the euthanization tank for the chance to do a Good deed. Too bad this is just a woman babbling, but that’s what they do, right. OK braintrusts, I don’t know my way to the den unless daddy tells me I do. Fuck the wastes of skin unfortunately unable to be genuine honorable people, God used up his stock of pure magical beauty and light on the real firay

  17. Alex31416 has left a comment that deals with an aspect of relationships that is rarely addressed. We’re certainly ‘out beyond the new frontier’ in terms of current human behaviour, but it wasn’t always like this

  18. I’ve been with one man for five years that started off as a platonic friendship that was promising to encounter more. After two years I told him how I felt and that I loved him. He has no response for me, he just has a surprised look that told me he was not sure. Recently he told me in return that he loves me too. After time apart and time to think clearly, I find that the younger man finds it harder to grasp the concept of saying it and showing it like women do. Women are easily able to express what they feel by saying it and showing it. We as women share that with our girl friends in conversation. But men do not sit around having emotional conversations with their buddies. It’s not masculine according to multiple studies. As a woman and an individual I look at men like a work of art like a man does a woman in admiring her natural beauty, her curves, and her demeanor in how a woman carries herself. I’ve also paid attention to the demeanor of a man: how he walks, talks, looks at his watch carries a conversation and how he carries his weight and the burden of being a man worth taking acknowledgment to. I found for my own personal study that men are quite inadequate of recieving the kind of attention they initially want in the end result. I’ve seen men receive love from their woman in a park and I’ve overheard such conversations when a woman smiles and says “I love you” and his puzzled face and reaction isn’t what he purposely meant for it to be but to know it took him off guard to be so comfortable in saying it back as easily as a woman has. Usually a woman would be upset at the idea of her mate not being able to say it back after sharing a moment of laughter to where her man makes her smile and laugh, but I saw a man’s face looking at his woman like he didn’t know if he loved her in return not because he didn’t care, but because at the idea of saying it and meaning it for the right one. I was fascinated at his facial expression. I wasn’t mad as a woman who saw a couple be happy and she said it but he didn’t know if he should. I could sense immediately that he loved her. His face said I love you but it also showed that he was uncertain of saying it, but also he wasn’t sure if she’s the right woman to say it to.

  19. This left me speechless.
    I am a 21 year old female and I have NEVER done any of these things. Conditional love is exactly that no matter who is the person displaying it.

    I loved my boyfriend of 4 years UNCONDITIONALLY. I did everything i could to make sure he was happy. I was the only one with a job and i supported him because i wanted him to be happy and comfortable and satisfied. I later learned that while i was working he had been having an “emotional affair” with another girl, saying things like he wasn’t good enough for her at the moment. BUT APPARENTLY HE WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
    I did not break up with him because he swore he loved me and thats why he “chose” me instead of her. That was the only time i was selfish in my love, and to be completely fair, it was 100% “rational”.
    He convinced me after a while that he did love me and i was back to treating him as i did before he broke – no – SHATTERED my trust and shook the foundations of what i thought love is supposed to be.
    He has been my ONLY boyfriend because i have never loved anyone enough to be ready to spend my life with them.
    We ultimately ended our romantic relationship, deciding we were better off as friends.

    My idea of love is still the same.
    I want and need to be respected enough to be openly and honestly spoken to, appreciated because of who i am and what i enjoy doing, loved enough to be proved to that i am an important person to the other, happy that i can trust the other with MY love and respect, and satisfied that i am the only girl he wants to experience the world with.
    My belief that someone can ever reciprocate this, however, is nonexistant.

  20. Pingback: Solipsism I |
  21. It depends a lot on how a woman is raised in the family. My mum was a foreigner (not not a mail order bride, but from good class). But I tell you, my mother never ever wavered from her husband each time he lost a job, or had to declare bankruptcy due to business troubles. ALWAYS STUCK AROUND, from the good times to the bad times, never EVER blaming the husband for anything. Always supportive, never spent money wildly, never asked money to buy frivoulous things. There were no marital fights in my family, not about the relationship or about the children or about finance. Of course there are disagreements, but I am so grateful to not be raised in a family where the parents leave for days on end, or have affairs or are just not happy… There is a lot of love between the two, and an extremely strong bond. I know for sure that there are some females that practice unconditional love, as well as men that are unconditional.

    Deep down men are sensitive too; they want to be appreciated for who they are. Their sensitivity is different from a females, I believe. A lot of women think they can just pile garbage upon garbage on males, but it’s not true. You can’t do it to men. Men are great. Society should treat them better. Females, please treat men better. In terms of relationships and marriage, nowadays, women are taught to ‘think about their happiness’. Stop thinking about how you need to work on your happiness only, and instead understand you must appreciate the man. I read the other day ago if a woman doesn’t feel happy she should stop giving man the love.
    That’s an example of the ludicrous 21st century “selfish happiness model”. A woman should not do this. The partners should discuss matters one on one. Besides, pleasuring a man should make a woman happy because the man is happy. Doesn’t the woman like to see the man completely in the throes of ecstasy? Aie aie …

    A happy man makes a woman happy. It’s the truth. If I don’t make my man happy, I don’t feel good. Be aware of the needs of the man. Men have great reservoir for love, but they can only deal with so much pomposity before they call it quits.

  22. I just wanted to add a counter to the hypergamy song above. If anyone knows the real answers to these questions, with any woman, I’d bet all my assets 50 cent does. But still, it’s a great example of the idealized love men hope for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMhlvbOFaM

    50 Cent – “21 Questions”

    You drive me crazy shorty I
    Need to see you and feel you next to me
    I provide everything you need and I
    Like your smile I don’t wanna see you cry
    Got some questions that I got to ask and I
    Hope you can come up with the answers babe

    Girl, It’s easy to love me now
    Would you love me if I was down and out?
    Would you still have love for me?
    Girl, It’s easy to love me now
    Would you love me if I was down and out?
    Would you still have love for me girl?

    If I fell off tomorrow would you still love me?
    If I didn’t smell so good would you still hug me?
    If I got locked up and sentenced to a quarter century,
    Could I count on you to be there to support me mentally?
    If I went back to a hoopty from a Benz, would you poof and disappear like
    Some of my friends?
    If I was hit and I was hurt would you be by my side?
    If it was time to put in work would you be down to ride?
    I’d get out and peel a nigga cap and chill and drive
    I’m asking questions to find out how you feel inside
    If I ain’t rap ’cause I flipped burgers at Burger King
    Would you be ashamed to tell your friends you feelin’ me?
    In the bed if I used my tongue would you like that?
    If I wrote you a love letter would you write back?
    Now we can have a lil’ drink you know a nightcap
    And we could go do what you like, I know you like that

    Girl, It’s easy to love me now
    Would you love me if I was down and out?
    Would you still have love for me?
    Girl, It’s easy to love me now
    Would you love me if I was down and out?
    Would you still have love for me girl?

    Now would you leave me if you’re father found out I was thuggin’?
    Do you believe me when I tell you, you the one I’m loving?
    Are you mad ’cause I’m asking you 21 questions?
    Are you my soul mate? ‘Cause if so, girl you a blessing
    Do you trust me enough, to tell me your dreams?
    I’m staring at ya’ trying to figure how you got in them jeans
    If I was down would you say things to make me smile?
    I treat you how you want to be treated just teach me how
    If I was with some other chick and someone happened to see?
    And when you asked me about it I said it wasn’t me
    Would you believe me? Or up and leave me?
    How deep is our bond if that’s all it takes for you to be gone?
    We only humans girl we make mistakes, to make it up I do whatever it take
    I love you like a fat kid love cake
    You know my style I say anything to make you smile

    Girl, It’s easy to love me now
    Would you love me if I was down and out?
    Would you still have love for me?
    Girl, It’s easy to love me now
    Would you love me if I was down and out?
    Would you still have love for me girl?

    Could you love me in a Bentley?
    Could you love me on a bus?
    I’ll ask 21 questions, and they all about us
    Could you love me in a Bentley?
    Could you love me on a bus?
    I’ll ask 21 questions, and they all about us

  23. From reading this article and the comments below, I think these men need to ask themselves where their image of ideal love comes from, and if it is realistic. Does it come from your mother, society, dogma, etc…?

    But more importantly, I think these men need to ask themselves why they feel they need a woman’s love to validate them. In other words, no man’s or woman’s happiness should be dependent upon another person. If you place your happiness in another person’s hands, you will inevitably be disappointed. It boils down to self love, but society grooms us to seek fulfillment outside ourselves in other people and materialistic things. Self love and a strong sense of self worth is pivotal to life happiness, and without them, anyone is doomed to repeated disappointments and continual unhappiness. By continuing to focus on how women are incapable of truly loving, you are buying into a lie, externalizing your need for self validation, and setting yourself up for repeated disappointments.

  24. So what does this mean exactly? That any moment of weakness or vulnerability I demonstrate, either intentionally or unintentionally, means I’m basically at risk of being dropped like a hot potato? That as soon as they stop getting what they want out of me I’m just a used up tissue on the floor of a seedy motel? This is both illuminating and depressing. I assumed that the problems in faced with women in regards to this mentality were specific to the ones I dated. To know they’re all this way without exception gives me a bitter sense of resenting disinterest. If their love for me only extends as far as what I give them, then what good is this shallow effecting that comes and goes on a whim? I guess when I’m old and suffering from a stroke I might as well blow my brains out and leave my savings to some random orphan. Someone who might actually appreciate the gesture

  25. I am 24, and am in the process of falling for a woman right now. She is 10 years older than I am, and has a much higher paying job, and she is also asian (I’m a typical white dude). I can tell that she really likes me, and I really like her. I’ve never seen myself settling down but for the first time, I feel like it would be possible with her. Now, after reading this (ive been an on/off red piller for a couple of years now), I am questioning that. One thing I want to ask for some opinions on, is the fact that all of these red pill posts and comments. Do you guys think that its possible that all of this stuff is true for many people, but not as set in stone as you all make it out to be? Is it possible that the articles and comments are all made by men who have had their hearts ripped out of their chests and squashed by the women they love? Or have been rejected by women all their lives? Is there a chance that it seems like such indisputable verifiable fact only because all of the happily married and satisfied men out there (if they exist) are not reading, writing or commenting on these articles?

    Or is this just wishful thinking. I think I know the types of responses I’ll be getting anyways, but it cant hurt to ask.

  26. @David Woodman

    I do not think its true that AWALT, that being said I do think a lot of them are though. There is a lot of truth that the guys posting here are going through recent break ups or struggle with women. So many people turn to here as a coping mechanism. However just like finding out Santa isn’t real, finding out that love is opportunistic and not unconditional is a tough pill to swallow. We are just as guilty of it too. Think of your past relationships, would you have dated her if she was fat? If she smelled bad? Would you have dated her if you were more successful? Love and romanticism is a great product to sell, but if you can see it for what it really is, you’ll realize that relationships are no different than a business deal.

    Its a tough mentality to change but if you can realize two things, it will make future relationships easier and hopefully better. First, don’t fall into the mind set of being her last. It’s not that you’re special, its just your turn. Second, when it comes to an end don’t take it so personally. Those are two concepts I couldn’t accept before I came across these red pill sites but now I am starting to get it. It doesn’t mean you can’t love again, just understand what is going on when you do. Realize your love is in the moment, and not forever. You have to be OK with it ending at any time.

  27. @Andrew

    No, AWALT are like that except for exceedingly rare exceptions because biology. The exceptions are also because biology, where biology went weird and fucked up genetics.

    Where women ACT against their biology, it’s because some man TRAINED them to do so.

    And no, men and women aren’t “human” when it comes to mating (including both sex and relationship dynamics). Men and women are DIVERGENT when it comes to mating.

    Love and romanticism is a great product to sell, but if you can see it for what it really is, you’ll realize that relationships are no different than a business deal.

    No, there is real sexual desire which isn’t a quid pro quo. Not a business deal. That is Blue Pill Shit ™.

    We are just as guilty of it too. Think of your past relationships, would you have dated her if she was fat?

    I see guys doing this all the time. Men and women love differently. Rollo is correct about this. Can a woman make herself gross so that I don’t want sex with her? Sure, but then she has changed herself and is no longer the woman that I loved.

    When men betaize themselves, it’s like a woman who becomes obese. So, there is SOME similarity in that particular case. A man could become obese without betaizing himself and still be hot to his woman. A woman could betaize herself (become more submissive and supplicating and pedestalize her man) and become even more hot to her man.

  28. My sister recently told me…if you want it your way, be single. You have to realize that when you get into a relationship it WILL NOT be what you want and what you expect. The better you can be at communicating your needs in healthy ways, the better chance you have at being happy in your relationship.

    I think this is why self-reflection and self-work along with great communication are key for a successful relationship. If the man can communicate his desires/expectations, the woman will be happy to oblige if she loves him. If the woman can communicate her desires/expectations, the man will be happy to oblige if he loves her. Of course, there will be disagreements and negotiations need to be made.

    But the unconditional love that both genders seek can only be provided from within.

    1. It’s not communication that makes a relationship work, it’s what’s communicated. Women prioritize context in communication, men prioritize content. This is why women cling to the hope that ‘open communication’ will solve every problem – this is simply untrue. Women never want full disclosure. They would rather play the game with a man who Just Gets It than to ever be shown how that game is actually working.

      https://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

  29. 3 things: 1: I laughed out loud when I read this: “So he finds a woman, who says and shows him that she loves him, but not in the manner he’s had all this time in his head. Her love is based on qualifications and is far more conditional than what he’d been led to believe, or convinced himself, love should be between them.” at how pitiful it is. This is why men need to have several sisters or girl cousins they grew up with, and to ALWAYS check out the woman with the women in the family who do love him. 2: The mom (or “primary caregiver”) relationship every child has had determines a lot. This is called “attachment theory” today and it’s pretty true. If you did not have a “secure” (if you had an insecure or cold primary caregiver), then you have a lot of work to do to find and maintain love. You will always be attracted to love relationships with people who have the relationship you had with your primary caregiver; you’ll need a lot of self-evaluation and taking action (often against your family) to change it. (Probably with a good therapist). Bizarre as it sounds, if you were raised by a cold mother, you will find some security and pleasure in interacting with that type; it’s like an addiction. 3. The way people think affects relationships. Women have the advantage because most of them can be both analytical and analogical in their thinking. A huge majority of men however have trouble with analogical thinking which they try to twist into analytical thinking, making them miss entirely the point offered by the analogical comment. This causes a lot of contempt between young people who don’t yet understand this. As one grows wiser, thankfully we figure it out. If a woman says something that seems “off point”, go back to the subject and consider possible analogies that it would trigger, or better yet: ask her.

  30. BullShit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I am still in love with my husband even after 2 1/2 years apart, even after him rejecting me out of fear of being vulnerable, putting walls between us, even after him cutting contact with me. I will love that man till I die.

  31. If you are really strong enough to love a woman, and essentially take whatever she gives, you can make this work. You get sex a couple times a week. You will get also some conversation and cooperation and company around the house. Neither of you should get too dependent, you are not each other’s psychologist. When she is not in the mood or talking shit, you should not react, except if you feel you have to call her out. Fix nothing, Merely go on with daily life and do your own thing then, preserve your independent happiness which is always inside of you. You ride your motorcycle or go fishing, go out with the guys, whatever. You are fine, remember that. And then without apologies or forgiveness or any acknowledgement of anything,one day you just resume the relationship. That is, you fuck her. And take her out to dinner, whatever. And in between those bad times and the good times you show her some respect and politeness, and you just wait it out. Share a joke. You are the joke actually so you might as well laugh Don;t expect some amazing all encompassing love. There is no Ingrid Bergman like in Casablanca, no Helen Hunt like in Twister. That’s fantasy. You will get sort of a greedy dependent shitty friend who talks shit but makes up for it by fucking you senseless. And if you want it, then you deal with it all like a man, and you do your best by her, respect her, and ultimately you find something in her to love. Or you move on, your choice But I wouldn’t expect much more than that, fellas.

  32. @Dean

    You speak my mind. Leftty animals are responsible for cultural fall. But their deeds will be punished.

  33. “Men believe in love for the sake of love, women love opportunistically. It’s not that either subscribe to unconditional love, it’s that both gender’s conditions for love differ.”

    Isn’t love for the sake of love another phrase for unconditional love?

    I’m not so sure men believe in love for the sake of love. I think this may be the point of the article. Men are selfish in their desire for love as much as women are, only that selfishness manifests differently.

  34. Sexual love (eros) is selfish by nature. Because men and women have different essential needs from the other sex, that selfishness manifests differently. A woman desires a powerful man who is committed to his life beyond her, yet nonetheless gives her some of his attention. The less a man needs her, the more valuable his attention seems to her and the more she falls for him. Think of the guy who fawns over her and falls down on his knee to propose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnyKkA05nYw). He got rejected because he valued her too much.

    From the man’s perspective though, what he wants is a woman who will be as exclusively available to him as his mother’s womb was. Subconsciously the man longs to return to what Brad Blanton (in Radical Honesty) calls ‘the primal ocean of being’ in the womb. If he is naive he sees a woman as the doorway to this infantile bliss. In his mind he sees her as the source of total security and provision, which he imagines that he will get by fusing with her sexually and emotionally (like he did with his mom). This is the root source of oneitis. Naive men conflate their cosmic need for the oneness of being with their sexual drive for women. The woman becomes a quasi-religious object for them, someone to worship. Naive women are solipsistic yes, and naive men are equally so.

    Our key cultural problem today is that erotic love trumps all other kinds of love, such as philia, storge and agape (https://lonerwolf.com/different-types-of-love/). If those others loves were stronger, it would be easier for all of us to get beyond the selfishness and solipsism of eros. Basically, we’d be a society of adults instead of grown children and adolescents, as we are now.

    Funny, the Eskimo have 50 words for snow. The Ancient Greeks had 8 (and more) different words for love. We for our part have 100 ways to talk about money. Shows you where priorities lie.

  35. The fewer the needs, the more abundant the love. That’s why parental love is the closest you can get to unconditional love (apart from your dog). What is termed unconditional is actually love in abundance.

    No one can deny that women have more needs than a single man. That’s why the betaization process happens for any man in an LTR or a marriage, but there’s no male equivalent (it doesn’t serve the man in any way to make his wife unattractive, but he will need her to support him and his biology will want to impregnate multiple women as it is risky and time consuming to raise even one human child to adulthood).

    The monogamous marriage serves the needs of society and children the best, followed by the woman and then the man.

    A sense of duty is always more stable and stoic than an emotional base – that’s why old school cultures talk of the duties of husband and wife.

    Men make the mistake of thinking their wives love them as unconditionally like their mothers, nope. That’s a love based on pair bonding. A child in a normal family will always see the better side of his mother — the husband will know the complete truth though.

    Commitment is always worth much more than sex. Trust even more. Sex is something that declines quickly in most marriages after the honeymoon phase. Commitment is for a lifetime, long after you’ve grown too old for sex. If that’s her body, that’s his life.

  36. Wonderful article, and one that I have returned to several times.

    I’ve long struggled with the seemingly hopeless ramifications of the truth: “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.”

    Because love is what it’s all about for me. And if I can’t find that vital love from a mate, then where can I find it?

    In the end, I think it has to come from oneself.

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