Men in Love

Dalrock had an interesting post last week – She’s the Victim – and as is the nature of Dal’s conversation the post served as the tree trunk for various branches of very interesting off-shoot discussion. Starviolet, a regular commenter (some would say troll) dropped what was a seemingly innocuous question:

“Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?”

As would be expected, the male responses to this and her followup comments ranged from mild annoyance of her naiveté to disbelief of her sincerity with regards to her “want to know.” However, her original wonderment as to whether men did in fact know when a woman doesn’t love them, I think, carries more weight than most guys (even manosphere men) realize. So I thought I’d recount my comments and the discussion here.

Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?

No, they can’t.

Why? Because men want to believe that they can be happy, and sexually satisfied, and appreciated, and loved, and respected by a woman for who he is. It is men who are the real romantics, not women, but it is the grand design of hypergamy that men believe it is women who are the romantic ones.

Hypergamy, by its nature, defines love for women in opportunistic terms, leaving men as the only objective arbiters of what love is for themselves. So yes, men can’t tell when a woman doesn’t love them, because they want to believe women can love them in the ways they think they could.

From Women in Love:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

HeiligKo responds:

All right, I keep hoping your rule #6 is wrong, but it hasn’t proven to be. So is the big lie that men miss not that women can provide this, but that we don’t invest this energy into fellow men? That we don’t find men we can be vulnerable with, so that we are emotionally prepared for the trials that women will create in our homes. Is this why so many women tend to isolate their husbands or boyfriends from their male friends early on in marriage or dating?

Presuming Starviolet was genuinely confused (and I’m half-inclined to think she is) this is exactly the source of Starviolet’s confusion. Women’s solipsism prevents them from realizing that men would even have a differing concept of love than how a woman perceives love. Thus her question, “can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?”

I don’t necessarily think it’s a ‘big lie’, it’s just a lack of mutuality on either gender’s concept of love. If it’s a ‘lie’ at all it’s one men prefer to tell themselves.

Bridging the Gap

Later in the discussion Jacquie (who is one of the two female writers to make my blogroll) brought up another interesting aspect of bridging the lack of mutuality between either gender’s concepts of love:

If it is beyond what a woman is capable of, therefore even if a woman recognizes this incapacity in herself, is there no way to compensate? What if a woman truly desires to try to move beyond this? Does she just consider it a hopeless matter and do nothing? Or is it something she should strive for continuously with the hope that she can at least move somewhat closer to this idealized love? Is it even too much for her to comprehend?

As I was telling HeligKo, it’s more a lack of mutuality on either gender’s concept of love. Starviolet’s question about whether a man can determine when a woman doesn’t love him goes much deeper than she’s aware of. I think a lot of what men go through in their blue pill beta days – the frustration, the anger, the denial, the deprivation, the sense that he’s been sold a fantasy that no woman has ever made good upon – all that is rooted in a fundamental belief that some woman, any woman, out there knows just how he needs to be loved and all he has to do is find her and embody what he’s been told she will expect of him when he does.

So he finds a woman, who says and shows him that she loves him, but not in the manner he’s had all this time in his head. Her love is based on qualifications and is far more conditional than what he’d been led to believe, or convinced himself, love should be between them. Her love seems duplicitous, ambiguous, and seemingly, too easily lost in comparison to what he’d been taught for so long is how a woman would love him when he found her.

So he spends his monogamous efforts in ‘building their relationship’ into one where she loves him according to his concept, but it never happens. It’s an endless tail-chase of maintaining her affections and complying with her concept of love while making occasional efforts to draw her into his concept of love. The constant placating to her to maintain her love conflicts with the neediness of how he’d like to be loved is a hypergamic recipe for disaster, so when she falls out of love with him he literally doesn’t know that she no longer loves him. His logical response then is to pick up the old conditions of love she had for him when they first got together, but none of that works now because they are based on obligation, not genuine desire. Love, like desire, cannot be negotiated.

It took me a long time, and was a very tough part of my own unplugging when I finally came to terms with what I thought about love and how it’s conveyed isn’t universal between the genders. It took some very painful slap-in-the-face doses of reality for this to click, but I think I have a healthier understanding of it now. It was one of the most contradictory truths I had to unlearn, but it fundamentally changed my perspective of the relations I have with my wife, daughter, mother and my understanding of past girlfriends.

If it is beyond what a woman is capable of, therefore even if a woman recognizes this incapacity in herself, is there no way to compensate? What if a woman truly desires to try to move beyond this? Does she just consider it a hopeless matter and do nothing?

I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible, but it would take a woman to be self-aware enough that men and women have different concepts of their ideal love to begin with, which is, improbable. The biggest hurdle isn’t so much in women recognizing this, but rather in men recognizing it themselves. So, hypothetically, yes you could, but the problem then becomes one of the genuineness of that desire. Love, like desire, is only legitimate when it’s uncoerced and unobligated. Men believe in love for the sake of love, women love opportunistically. It’s not that either subscribe to unconditional love, it’s that both gender’s conditions for love differ.

Leave a Reply

  Subscribe  
Notify of
A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada

I hold up one and only one “proof” or “truth” that I know a woman loves me: she acts completely retarded with me. I can do or say virtually anything and she’ll laugh/giggle and continue to keep her paws on my body. When a woman’s “social retardation” mode changes and becomes too serious, I know she’s thinking too logically and her love for me has dropped. Then I just back away and see if she comes back around. If she doesn’t, that generally means the relationship is over, she just doesn’t know it yet. Usually, the relationship is over because… Read more »

Gustavo
Guest
Gustavo

“So he spends his monogamous efforts in ‘building their relationship’ into one where she loves him according to his concept, but it never happens. It’s an endless tail-chase of maintaining her affections and complying with her concept of love while making occasional efforts to draw her into his concept of love. The constant placating to her to maintain her love conflicts with the neediness of how he’d like to be loved is a hypergamic recipe for disaster, so when she falls out of love with him he literally doesn’t know that she no longer loves him. His logical response then… Read more »

Stephen
Guest
Stephen

I’m living this reality right now as well. Ten years of marriage, 15 together in total and I’ve finally woken up to these red pill truths thanks to sites like this. We met when we were 18 and she convinced me that our love was this perfect romantic love without conditions. I responded like most men, especially those who are still really kids, and bought into her vision of us being soul-mates hook line and sinker. I ignored the times over the years when I had stumbled and her unconditional love suddenly became very conditional. Two years ago I lost… Read more »

That's me
Guest
That's me

Sounds like my life too. I was “slapped” with the facts explained in this post. I never would believed that women’s love was so conditional. If I read this when I first got married I would’ve said “no way, not my wife”. Ha! Now I know.

Now that my eyes are open, I’m a different/better man, and I’m not motivated by trying to please her….and of course she loves me again…at least for now 😉

My sons will be learning the truth from me as they grow up!

Phaedrus
Guest
Phaedrus

Yeah, your Iron Rule #6 is by far the most difficult to accept, especially (as you describe it here) the conditional nature of a woman’s love. I still find myself oscillating between accepting it and hoping that maybe, with the right girl, it won’t be true. It’s always safest to act under the assumption that it’s true, though, and never let that hope turn into an expectation. I wonder, though, whether it’s true that the more hypergamous a woman is, the more conditional her love is? Is it the hypergamy alone that makes for the conditionality? My current gf is… Read more »

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

The corrollary rule you mentioned — that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices a man makes for her — is the one that snapped me out of my blue pill fog. I had always understood that love is conditional, that you could love but still need to part ways if there was a structural problem that love alone could not fix. My own parents had loved each other, but had no ability to stay happily married. I always knew love wasn’t enough to make you happy in a marriage or LTR. But appreciation is something I expected. That was my blind… Read more »

gregg
Guest
gregg

Of course, love of a woman is conditional to its core. Role of a man is to slave his life away for woman and her children. EVERY married man facilitates this feminine imperative. Wise men never marry, but we are rarely “wise” when it comes to women. We have those protective instincts, romantic nature, high level of hormones, etc. Easy prey for a woman. I have to admit that women have it too easy with men. No wonder that beuatiful ones are bored. It is sooo easy and predictable with those poor males ruled by their hormones, illusions and dicks.… Read more »

Grit
Guest

Acknowledging Iron Rule #6 is akin to acknowledging that you die alone. It is a harsh reality and not beneficial to dwell on. Besides, humans are evolved to place all kinds of strawmen and idealizations between us and that reality. It is not as if thousands of men in the manosphere were hoodwinked in a game of “3 cup hide the marble.” Their biology led them to ignore reality and get married (without love). You can’t place any blame there. Consider “you die alone” akin to a red pill belief. Every friend you make, every child you have, everything you… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

I should add here that a belief in the universal mutuality of love between the sexes is one of the primary reasons beta plug-ins and especially White Knights cling so tenaciously to their mental models. Naturally that model is based on a scarcity mentality and reciprocal reward exchanged for relational equity, but at the end of it all the concept of that ‘love’ reward is based on an expectation of a male-define, male-idealized, love being returned to him when he is rewarded. It’s only after he’s involved and invested in an LTR that he comes to realize that love isn’t… Read more »

Ted D
Guest

Rollo – if a man cannot expect a woman to love him the way he feels he should be loved, is there no place to find it? Is it that many/most of us simply have an incorrect concept of love that is not humanly possible, or is it only not possible from women? Is this what men’s clubs and strong male friendships were for? I ask genuinely, because I’ve accepted that I can’t get what I’m looking for from a woman, but I haven’t stopped desiring that level of bonding. It isn’t about the sex, it is about knowing one… Read more »

gregg
Guest
gregg

Rollo I would bet half of my assets that you did not know this “truth” before marriage. This is not “beta-thing” or “white knight” thing. This one is rooted in biology of men. Without this there will be no marriages at all. It is manly to belive in romance, soulmates, to protect and provide for your wife, to sacrifice your well being for her. We are made that way. This belief is almost universal among men. Men were made blind when it comes to women -and we are made that way for a reason. When a tiny minority of us… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

That men believed in unconditional love from their wives was a shock to me when I first I first read it in the manosphere. My husband and I had this conversation shortly before or after (I can’t remember exactly) we were married. We were both lamenting the fact that we could never be capable of loving one another unconditionally. We both knew there are things that either of us could do to destroy the love. Given that, I assumed this was common knowledge. We both know, the only people we could love unconditionally are our children. So, my question is… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

Sting:

I think Rollo’s Iron Rule 6 suggests the answer. Men love through self-sacrifice, through giving of themselves, by doing. This is how we are made. It’s ingrained. Men think that because they love unconditionally, then women must also do the same.

This is reinforced by family members, media and churchianity telling men that the only way they know how to love is through sexual intimacy, which is bad, perverted and dirty. But women love through “giving”, which is good, pure and clean.

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

The first biggest relationship of every man is with his mother – he spend 9 month in the womb, subject to his mothers hormonal fluctuations, emotional swings, happiness and sadness, good nutrition and substance abuse. That is what is deeply imprinted as “love” on biological level.

It takes breaking away from one’s mother on the emotional level to stop seeking unconditional “wombly” love from women.

Alpha Mission
Guest

@stingray: a woman’s love for her child is conditional as well, ever heard of abortion? Also some women have been known to kill their children post partum because they don’t appear to be from the desired biological father (alpha). Additionally a man and wife should love each other more than their children. As women have gained power through feminism, the results have been more than repulsive.

Rhino Tingley
Guest
Rhino Tingley

It seems to me that we are being unfair to the ladies.

I would suggest that women can indeed love unconditionally, however, what they love is not what you “are” – whatever that means (are you the same man you were ten years ago ?). No, what they love is what you represent. A winner, a hero, a risk-taker, a leader… you name it.

When you cease to represent what they love, then it’s over. Hence the divorces after guys lose their jobs. Your “essence” has no meaning to them.

dean
Guest
dean

I am trying to understand this argument but I would like some clarification. What exactly is the male definition of love and what is the female definition? It seems it goes something like this: Male: wants a woman to love him for his ability to make a living, help raise the kids, keep a homefront, love him for his character, love him for the fact that he gave up being a playboy for love, etc. Ok, but there are alot of assumptions in there, primarily that the man actually has character and is lovable. Many men are just not. I… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

Dean:

Almost. Men want to be loved for WHO THEY ARE and appreciated for WHAT THEY DO.

Most women do not do this. A woman loves a man for what he does for her and what he represents: affirmation, validation, provision.

dean
Guest
dean

I would suggest that women can indeed love unconditionally, however, what they love is not what you “are” – whatever that means (are you the same man you were ten years ago ?). No, what they love is what you represent. A winner, a hero, a risk-taker, a leader… you name it. When you cease to represent what they love, then it’s over. Hence the divorces after guys lose their jobs. Your “essence” has no meaning to them. But this gets to the heart of the issue: What exactly is love? Unconditional love is a contradiction in terms. There is… Read more »

CaptainHammer
Guest
CaptainHammer

@Gustavo: You already quoted it, but I’ve got to quote it again… “So he spends his monogamous efforts in ‘building their relationship’ into one where she loves him according to his concept, but it never happens. It’s an endless tail-chase of maintaining her affections and complying with her concept of love while making occasional efforts to draw her into his concept of love. The constant placating to her to maintain her love conflicts with the neediness of how he’d like to be loved is a hypergamic recipe for disaster…” This was the first 4.5 years of my 6-year marriage (and… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

@Dean, I’d agree up to this point,.. Hypergamy doesn’t influence the marriage market the way it does the short term sexual market (ie the “hookup” market). Strongly disagree. Hypergamy doesn’t end at the alter, and if anything it’s even more pronounced. Think of the ‘buyer’s remorse’ principle PUAs describe; now think about mitigating that for a lifetime. That’s the hindbrain doubt that hypergamy etches into every woman. As I said before, men believe in love for the sake of love, women love opportunistically. The best illustration I can think of for this disparity is to watch the movie Blue Valentine.… Read more »

dean
Guest
dean

Almost. Men want to be loved for WHO THEY ARE and appreciated for WHAT THEY DO. Well, “who they are” is going to be determined by “what they do”. So on that end there shouldn’t be any problem. Most women do not do this. A woman loves a man for what he does for her and what he represents: affirmation, validation, provision. Well, this argument I can understand and I don’t doubt that there are many women like this. Essentially you are saying that women love the deeds a man does but not the actual man himself and if the… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

a woman’s love for her child is conditional as well, ever heard of abortion? Also some women have been known to kill their children post partum because they don’t appear to be from the desired biological father (alpha). Additionally a man and wife should love each other more than their children. As women have gained power through feminism, the results have been more than repulsive. I don’t disagree with anything you say here. It seems that women, as a group, have become only their base biological desires (what they refer to as empowerment). Without some kind of will, women aren’t… Read more »

dean
Guest
dean

Rollo, I don’t disagree. But I just think that high self-esteem women will marry the best man they can get and that there will not be such a SMV disparity. In ‘Blue Valentine’ you had a non-ambitions prole marrying a LSE single mother; two fucked up people. But lets say he had saved his money from his construction job and then opened up a small bar and bought 2 or 3 rental properties and had a nice cash flow going. He had nice friends and family and threw great superbowl parties where they showed off the kids, etc. Well I… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

LSE?

deti
Guest
deti

LSE= low self esteem

Stingray
Guest

Oh man . . . duh. Thanks Deti. 😉

FFY
Guest

As Rob at No Ma’am always says, there is a heirarchy of love.

Man -> Woman -> Children

Love flos down the heriarchy, not up. Much like a child can never love its parents like its parents love it, a woman can never love a man like a man loves a woman.

http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2006/01/very-few-women-are-capable-of.html

Michael
Guest
Michael

Great article. But isn’t there something missing? Something along the lines of “… so this is what you do about it”?

Should men just give up on ever being loved and turn into a pump-n-dumper? Vow chastity and just hang out with the guys? Settle down to a life of unloved misery and pretend to enjoy it?

Stingray
Guest

My husband played me this song last night and it is an utterly raw look at hypergamy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZF5m-vmDzM I hate you for the sacrifices you made for me. I hate you for every time you ever bled for me. I hate you for the way you smile when you look at me. I hate you for never taking control of me. I hate you for always saving me from myself. I hate you for always choosing me and not someone else. I hate you for always pulling me back from the edge. I hate you for every good word you… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

Rollo,

I must have posted too many links and I ended up in moderation. Would you please take me out? Thank you.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Saw this video linked at a manosphere blog last week, can’t remember which, but I loved it and the write up.

Stingray
Guest

Spacetraveller mentioned a blog written by Lost called Dating on the Move? Does that sound familiar? I haven’t heard of it but am planning on checking out.

3rd Millenium Men
Guest
3rd Millenium Men

@Stephen do you have kids? Cause if not I’d be getting myself the hell out.

xsplat
Guest

Sasha says: “It takes breaking away from one’s mother on the emotional level to stop seeking unconditional “wombly” love from women.” This is an insightful point. I like the idea of individuation. Although we can’t equate individuation with charisma, I think there is a close correlation with the circle that we draw to claim the set of alpha characteristics. Individuation is at the core of this most manly art of dealing with women. I like the way you put it. We can no longer rely on our women for succor. That was never their job. That relationship is only between… Read more »

Sam Spade
Guest
Sam Spade

Man. When I was 17 or 18, I joked to my (female) friend and her parents that “women are evil; men are stupid.” I was trying to be funny/clever of course. I don’t believe women are “evil” and men are “stupid.” But the naked truth of that statement just struck me. I made it at an age when I didn’t know anything about anything, let alone Game, Hypergamy, etc. Yet I somehow felt moved to observe that women follow their plan and men self deceive and play along. I probably would have forgotten I ever said that, except that her… Read more »

Dreamer
Guest
Dreamer

I think you left out a major piece in this analysis. It was from a response you (RT) made in the last post about the conditionality of love. I commented before that your argument seems to be an argument that love is insincere. Your response was that the more sincere the conditions, the more sincere the love. That’s a very important aspect you seem to recognize (unless I have mixed up my memory or misinterpret it) in this subject, but was not mentioned in this post. We assign value of genuineness of the conditions as much as the genuineness of… Read more »

abcdef
Guest
abcdef

Men love for the sake of love?

No, men love for the sake of wide hips, tasty dinners, and maternal instinct.

It’s practical in both directions.

@Dada: “When a woman’s “social retardation” mode changes and becomes too serious, I know she’s thinking too logically and her love for me has dropped”

You’re missing the point. Women are logical. They are seeking status.

Women laughing at everything just mean they find you sexy. It’s a biological reaction.

Biology, however, is not mutually exclusive from logical reasoning.

Simon Corso
Guest
Simon Corso

I think what messes us up is our mothers. If you’re a guy who was ” lucky ” enough to have a good mother, she loved you unconditionally. This was your introduction to women and so as a man you presume that all women are capable of this kind of unconditional love. The sweet, nurturing, you-can-do-anything-and-I-will-still love-you, kind of love. If you did receive this unconditional love from your mom, I hope you enjoyed it because no other woman on the planet will EVER offer that again and eventually you will have to train yourself not to even hope for… Read more »

nek
Guest
nek

@Simon Corso. I couldn’t agree more. I have a very nice mom and had a “good” upbringing. While I’ve straightened out my act, it has definitely had an effect with women. It’s as if modern moms are trying to raise men to always be dependent on them, instead of raising them to stand on their own two feet. They’ll tell you what you want to hear, instead of what you need to here. They’re good at comforting, terrible at problem solving (go figure). The problem is, dads should be able to counter this but this day in age they’re either… Read more »

nek
Guest
nek

@ Michael again: I think phase I of the red pill process is understanding the dynamics and realities. And I think that, while this isn’t easy to do at first either, it is the easier part of the process. Phase II is the acceptance. In between Phase I and Phase II (Let’s call it I b.) is where guys are still holding on to Blue pill ideals and using red pill knowledge to try to achieve them. As in, they’re using red pill skills/knowledge to obtain that Ideal love. I think alot of guys are stuck in the I b.… Read more »

Sphinx64
Guest
Sphinx64

Men need to be make clear what conditions are required for his love, e.g. his wife/girlfriend staying fit. Unfortunately, we’re labeled as shallow if we are not pleased with a woman’s weight gain.

trackback

[…] It should be pretty clear that girls fantasise alot about sex. This girl is the prototypical Good Girl – she’s 23 and had only one sexual partner, looks quite nerdy. For a long time I struggled with the madonna-whore complex, struggling to believe that good girls love sex. 60 Years of Challenge explains that one well. Men have trouble accepting affection from sluts because they have a natural aversion to forming a long-lasting emotional attachment to a girl who shows signals of likely sleeping-around / cuckoldry. Women know a child is theirs but a man never does and this… Read more »

Grizzly
Guest
Grizzly

Simon Corso, you have just spoken the most bitter of all red pill iron laws: You must purge all hope that any woman can love you as you are, as deeply and unconditionally as your own mother did. All the others can only love how you make them feel about themselves.

Markku Koponen
Guest
Markku Koponen

Stringray: The lie of unconditional love is basically that the love of my hypothetical wife is the one thing I can count on in my life – that I could try things and fail at them, and it might make life a bit rough for a while, but I’d always have the love of my wife to fall back on.

I believed this hook, line and sinker a decade ago. Luckily I learned otherwise before actually getting married.

expat
Guest
expat

nothing more pathetic than a man in love

Dreamer
Guest
Dreamer

People, looking at some of the comments, I want to quote this: “I’m not debating the genuineness or sincerity of women’s capacity to love. What I’m positing here is that women’s conception of love isn’t what men would be led to believe it is.” That’s from Rollo from the “Women in Love” thread and I don’t think it is out of context. Some are writing like as if the reality is “there is no love” and thus the only choices is to either screw around/abstain or leave in loveless misery. I’m going to go on a limb to argue to… Read more »

xsplat
Guest

Great article. But isn’t there something missing? Something along the lines of “… so this is what you do about it”? Should men just give up on ever being loved and turn into a pump-n-dumper? Vow chastity and just hang out with the guys? Settle down to a life of unloved misery and pretend to enjoy it? Men have found different solutions to the quandary. The most popular one in the manosphere, as far as I can tell, is to become an emotional zombie, and just pump and dump girls as if the man no longer has any humanity left… Read more »

Alpha Mission
Guest

Are we supposed to make our girls of the moment have abortions too? This is the one part of the xsplat experience I refuse to replicate.

nek
Guest
nek

@ Dreamer I think the issue with conditional love is that it doesn’t really make it worth a man’s while to invest in a woman too much knowing that there are conditions to it. You simply can’t invest too much of yourself into a woman who will leave you once a better deal comes around, or just out of emotional whim. And it seems like these days that the number of conditions seems to be growing. It’s like xsplat says, love them as they are, but once you realize what they are, it doesn’t inspire that strong of a love… Read more »

xsplat
Guest

I have no idea how a family man can safely structure a family life nowadays. I love giving advice, but have nothing to say on that topic. And am not planning to figure out a solution either.

All I know or care about is enjoying the company of women. Babies? You tell me if you ever sort that out.

wdplant
Guest

A very good post, one of the best I have seen. It explains very well the problem most men have with understanding the behaviour of women in relationships. Our expectations are different from theirs and many men would have happier lives if they could realise and understand this concept.
I just wonder where a man’s concept of love comes from. Do we get from from our mothers, from our culture, from our fathers? Are we setting our sons up for failure in relationships?

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

@Stephen

“She said we might be over before long if my attitude doesn’t change and I just laughed and said so what?”

I let out a little “fuck ya!!!” under my breath when I read that. Fuckin A, props man!

Dreamer
Guest
Dreamer

@nek I agree with the second half. These days the conditions are growing larger by the minute. But I’m not sure of the first half. The reasoning seems to be based on the premise of not only unconditionality does not exist, but the conditions that do exist to be fragile. To be at the graces of the superior competition and emotional whims of the woman. I spent a significant amount of energy to write my first post noting the thought. Which seems to be getting ignored rather contested or concurred. Unconditional is unrealistic, but conditions does vary. If the condition… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

@Rollo “All of the very positive, very beneficial aspects of accepting a red pill reality come at the cost of abandoning the blue pill idealisms we’ve been conditioned to for so long. Leaving behind that polyanna, expectant, blue-pill dream seems like killing an old friend, but unlearning that old paradigm allows you to benefit from a far more hopeful red pill existence.” Yep. I would argue that understanding and accepting women’s limitations and faults as how they are, instead of expecting them to live up to an imaginary ideal actually allows me to love them more, because I love them… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

One more lol: “I think alot of guys are stuck in the I b. part. Because the reality is uglier.” I think the biggest difference between myself personally and the Manosphere commenters I’ve seen is that the red pill was a tough swallow for most of them. It went down hard, took multiple tries, they got stuck in “I b.” clinging to shit, it was a total scary mindfuck, accepting the realities of the red pill (like the comment above about how it would mean everything is meaningless and that’s too scary/depressing to accept) etc etc. For me, I had… Read more »

Steve Canyon
Guest
Steve Canyon

A woman can express a desire, verbally or written, to move beyond her nature and maybe even recognize such it, as Jacquie claims, herself. Ultimately, she never will be able to move beyond it because her emotions dictate her actions and thus will revert back to her natural state.

I consider such stated desires to have no more merit than a woman who states she wants to lose weight as she dumbs half a bottle of ranch on her cobb salad and washes it down with a coke.

pulsotic
Guest

I think the biggest problem is that people still believe in romantic love. It doesn’t exist. For a different shade of red pill, Google: “romantic love is a hoax by james park.”

The reality is that men can only “fall in love” with pretty women, and women can only “fall in love” with “better” men.

When a woman loses her looks, or when a man loses his resources or status, the “love” is lost.

@Ya Really
I keep searching google for your blog but I still can’t find it.

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

Of course men can’t tell the difference between a womans fake love and real love. Two main reasons (or categories of reasons if you will): 1. Women are master manipulators. Women are adept at getting men to believe what benefits them, and if a man needs to believe that a woman loves him in order for her to get what she wants (and that’s a pretty effective way to go) then that’s what she will get him to believe. Womens whole sexual/mating strategy essentially revolves around men not properly understanding her motivations, so being able to project a chosen and… Read more »

peoplegrowing
Guest

What confuses me most about this is that what has been described as what a man wants from love sounds to me very much like what women want from love too. I think women also want appreciation and unconditional support. The problem as I can see it is not that men and women aren’t talking about the same things in terms of their desires, but that they aren’t talking about the same things in terms of “self” – and, to be fair, I recognize that there may also be (our culture currently even encourages) an imbalance in each gender’s ability… Read more »

peoplegrowing
Guest

* scrolls up to see what new posts came up while drafting my essay *

….

Dammit pulsotic, for saying 4 lines what I wrote several paragraphs to express!

Stupid people being concise. 😛

Johnycomelately
Guest
Johnycomelately

Equality is the root of the misunderstanding concerning love, once a man disavows himself of that notion and truly accepts that women are inferior to himself, he bursts that little bubble.

He can then see past their foibles and appreciate them for who they are.

Rock Throwing Peasant
Guest

Understand, the movies women (and men) watch also show no distinction. It would be intresting to see who wrote the most “romantic” movies and, maybe more importantly, finding whoch romantic movies a woman wrote to compare/contrast.

If men have written the uber-romantic movies, women are more likely to believe they love the same way men do, because the man wrote her part. How would a woman write those parts, from a modern, unleashed perspective?

3rd Millenium Men
Guest
3rd Millenium Men

“Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them? No, they can’t. Why? Because men want to believe…” Spot on, and I made the exact same point in my post earlier today: http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/women-talk-to-your-men/ When men are in love, we’re on cloud 9. Nothing can get in our way, and we see the world as a far more beautiful place. Norman Doidge explains the basis of this neurochemistry in ‘The Brain that Changes Itself’. Consequently, men (and particularly Beta men but also alphas who let their guard down) can be taken by surprise when we find out a women… Read more »

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

My experiences have taught me to never develop feelings for a woman or open myself up in a way that could cause pain if she leaves me as I have experienced that heartache in the past. I just enjoy the moments with women now and not expect nothing in return. If they open themselves up to me I acknowledge and thank them for the affection, but nothing more. I once believed in the idea of unconditional love as what I was led to believe, but now I know it’s absolutely conditional. Now I realize why Dogs are a man’s best… Read more »

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

And honestly men, it’s far healthier to abandon the entire notion of love. You begin to really question your purpose in life and begin to pursue things that really matter to you. It’s almost like a breath of fresh air when your expectations are solely put upon yourself. You experience women in a much more pleasant way too. There is almost a sense of calmness and a genuine character flows from you. For the men out there reading this, ask yourself if what your doing is what you really want to be doing in your life. If the answer is… Read more »

YB
Guest
YB

@pulsotic: thank you for the information. Fascinating to learn that the romantic love bullshit was invented by French troubadours 800 years ago. I will get that book and read it properly, get more view of the whole thing rather than the synopsis of one chapter. So the modern business of unconditional love/marriage/divorce is a meme which has gotten well out-of-control. To the point where it has infected society on a deep, ongoing, and totally-unfavorable level. One which in its current uncontrolled manifestation is destroying our society instead of being beneficial. Game: rather than being undesirable and deplorable (according to the… Read more »

The Dude
Guest
The Dude

What has saved my sanity when it comes to relationships after taking the red pill is this.

Everything in this world…I look at through a man’s eyes EXCEPT relationships. I look at that through a woman’s eyes.

Men…we can look at some things through a woman’s perspective if we allow it. After all we do have a X chromosome too. Just don’t expect a woman to see things the way you do.

The Dude
Guest
The Dude

And after I started this process of looking at relationships like that…you wouldn’t believe how much easier it was to socialize with women. In fact I would start living and enjoying the moment, having fun, forgetting my ego, and stopped trying to impress.

My metaphor is…when a woman says she wants a man who communicates well…use your words to paint a picture, don’t use your words to solve a mathematical formula.

jarl
Guest
jarl

The female conception of love reflects their solipsism. Their love is fundamentally a love of self, while male love is outwardly focused. That is why a woman’s love is conditional; love to her exists as the feelings you can give her. The only way a woman learns to love outside herself is by having children, but that is not even a sufficient condition.

trackback

[…] Manosphere speculation on women’s incapacity to love men as they wish to be loved […]

Elaine
Guest
Elaine

Hmmmm. Intersting. Does make a lot of sense to me. From reading what male posters have written here, I get the idea that men want a female lover to be like the female version of a Wingman (ie Wingwoman). Someone who will have his back and him hers, someone whom he can sacrifice everything for, and vice versa. Someone whom he will be totally and absolutely loyal to and vice versa. Someone he has absolute trust in, enough to potentially put his life and that of his children in her hands. But unlike a Wingman, someone whom he can be… Read more »

Elaine
Guest
Elaine

Oh. A final thing. How did Penelope recognize the man she loved/loves after 40 years ? She finally got tired of waiting and said to her suitors that whoever could string his bow and shoot his arrow through twelve axe shafts (wikipedia) or in other versions, through twelve jug holes will win her hand. Guess who could do this out of all the men there ? Yup, the best of them all – the man she loves.

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

***free literature lesson 🙂 Odysseus was away twenty years. Penelope’s suitors were plotting to kill Telemacus as he was soon to inherit his father’s lands and she could put them off no longer. She had initially told them she would pick a suitor when she finished weaving a tapestry. Each night she would undo her weaving, but she was eventually discovered. So, the challenge was set. They had to use Odysseus’ bow, and naturally, he was best able to do this. Yet, he was still in disguise and she was not certain it was him. Her true test was to… Read more »

Urban Counselor
Guest
Urban Counselor

Hands down..one of the best manosphere posts I’ve ever read. With humans there ARE conditions to love and more importantly respect when it is given by women.

3rd Millenium Men
Guest
3rd Millenium Men

@Team-Red

My experiences have taught me to never develop feelings for a woman or open myself up in a way that could cause pain if she leaves me as I have experienced that heartache in the past..

Giving up on one of life’s greatest joys just because you’ve been burned is very sad.

Augen
Guest
Augen

I read every article and every comment on RM, it’s really become my favorite blog, almost my favorite read of any kind, so on account of the fact that I don’t comment often, I always feel compelled to affirm that I am down with 99.5% of everything here, the insight, truth and articulation is unexceeded anywhere. So, having said that, a few points of nuance. I think a big part of the reason RT has the insights he has is age and experience. I am able to read these words and experience them only now looking back at my late… Read more »

Augen
Guest
Augen

Much of what allows me to see “the feminine”, and my guess is that much of how and why RT sees the feminine so clearly, is that no occupying a different side of the SMP, where our value is higher and we see women behaving differently … specifically they behave now LIKE WE DID TOWARDS THEM in our 20s, we get it, we understand the “feminine”.

But this isn’t entirely understanding “the feminine”, it’s really just understanding how someone behaves when they have an upper hand in a pending transaction.

Augen
Guest
Augen

Put another way – there can be multiple causes of the same thing. There’s a statistical technique where we try to tease out cause called “multivariate regression”. If I were to poke a guess, I would guess that if we put “evolutionary hindbrain” on a chart with “age with youth and beauty yielding greater power for women early on in the SMP”, we’d find out that the latter contributes at least as much, if not more to the behavior of women. Some examples to point … In my 20s I didn’t get it. I put in the “relational equity”. They… Read more »

Augen
Guest
Augen

Another example: I credit that there is a way men love and want to be loved. I credit that is a massively wholesome thing that is woefully undervalued, at a cost that, if civilization were smart enough to regret it, it would regret it greatly. But let’s not overstate this. We are able to overthink this because women who are not sexually attractive to us are INVISIBLE to us when we are thinking about these things. We DO NOT love every woman like this. We don’t even love one special woman like this. We love the hot thing that happened… Read more »

Augen
Guest
Augen

Last point: Once we get a real handle on the fact that age is playing a highly modifying role in the SMP that inverts the power of the feminine and masculine at different times, I think it turns out that there is a time and place for equity. In Old Age. When everyone has past their prime. When both parties are no longer attractive to anybody. Then, perhaps only then, are we at a point where all that is left is relational equity. And I suspect we all agree, undesirable sexually though such a pair may be, it’s an outcome… Read more »

trackback

[…] Male – Men In Love, Of Love And […]

Acksiom
Guest
Acksiom

“But let’s not overstate this.” Let’s first actually see some actual evidence that we actually are. “To really gain this insight, do an experiment. Have lunch in a mall food court. Force yourself to pay attention to all the women who DO NOT catch your eyes’ The older ones. The fat ones. The ugly ones. Could you ‘love’ them, the way we are talking about love?” What way would that be? This one? Women, if you want to attract us, you should keep in mind that even when we’re NOT EVEN dating you, we men are still expected to step… Read more »

trackback

[…] Rollo had two pieces regarding men and love (Men In Love and Of Love and War).  In the first he stated “ Women are utterly incapable of loving a man […]

Joe
Guest
Joe

There really is no such thing as true love these days. Only false love, lust, and extortion.

trackback

[…] Due to this core concept and soul-mate mythology, both sexes will seek to perfect that idealization for themselves – even under the least ideal of conditions and expressions. We want to build our intimate relations into that soul-mate idealism in order to relieve the fear and solve the problem, and most times so badly that we’ll deftly ignore the warnings, abuses and consequences of having done so. For women the impact of the most significant Alpha is what initially defines that soul-mate idealization. For men it may be the first woman to become sexual with him or the one… Read more »

necorochi
Guest

“Men believe in love for the sake of love,women love opportunistically.”

necorochi
Guest

“Men believe in love for the sake of love,women love opportunistically.” “The constant placating to her to maintain her love conflicts with the neediness of how he’d like to be loved is a hypergamic recipe for disaster, so when she falls out of love with him he literally doesn’t know that she no longer loves him.” Can you elaborate on women objective love a little more, so I can know where to draw the line. I was not overt about the neediness but you could almost feel it in the vibe. I’m not a real needy person I got really… Read more »

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

“Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.” And men are uncapable of loving women in the way we idealize. That’s because only the self fully knows, idealizes and love the self. We seek the self in the other. “In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment… Read more »

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous

YaReally said:
“It’s a shame this stuff is so shrouded in MSM-hate/fear…the more men it reaches, the earlier in their lives, the better.”

I’m 22. Keep up the good work.

breakherlegs
Guest
breakherlegs

What an interesting read. However, I do not think all of this applies to all women. It does not apply to my relationship. For the past three years, my partner has been on government welfare, living in share houses and often, on the streets. I have left the comfort and warmth behind to be with him in these times, quite often, regardless of the fact I can seek shelter with my mother or my friends whenever I want it. Certainly, we have argued about these things from time to time, but would I leave him over a financial crisis or… Read more »

Chaagá
Guest
Chaagá

Hey, I am a women, determined to love my guy to the very last bit. Well, I loved him since the very first moment I saw him. I want to marry him and make lots of his babies 🙂 In fact I came across this page while I was searching for ways to make him happier. After reading the bitter comments of frustrated men, I thought I’d share my thoughts so this page don’t look like one sided story. Here we go. Women’s responsibility in family focuses more on care giving and reproduction. We women carry babies in our womb… Read more »

trackback

[…] Men in Love […]

trackback

[…] MEN OFF 20 SIGNS YOU ARE IN AN ABUSIVE OR VIOLENT RELATIONSHIP 10 SIGNS HE IS JUST NOT INTO YOU Men in Love HOW DO MEN FALL IN LOVE? [MUST READ] 26 Reasons Why I Love My Wife “What if he’s just being […]

cyfox
Guest
cyfox

I don’t pass shit tests. I train them not to shit test. Positive reinforcement works best.

Mac
Guest
Mac

Again, great insight. I do feel now like we are the better of the sexes. We have a greater ability to empathize, love properly and be responsible. It really pisses me off that we have been indoctrinated into this neutered existence (recently divorced… a little bitter)! I have two sons and I will use much of what I learn to lead them to becoming strong men.

john
Guest
john

Chaaga
“My heart goes for them but you men need to understand that they cannot expect women to love them without filling that void in her life which requires to be fulfilled by her man. Good Luck Guys !”

The fact that you said this, you love a person by feeling. Feeling alone will always change due to circumstances (etc man turning beta)

iu5xytf
Guest
iu5xytf

“Can men really not tell when a woman doesn’t love them?” I love this quote, is succinctly shows how tilted the game is. Firstly, it assumes that men should know when they’re loved, despite the lack of parameters given. This is genius, because the onus of responsibility is transferred to the man. With no clear parameters for what love actually is, the woman is free to ‘change her mind’ at any time, leaving the man to figure out, in an endless cycle if he is loved. In short, women act, men re-act. If you believe this quote, you’re always one… Read more »

Cory Pontillo
Guest

Robert, they vary. It’s up on the authors. Many of the letters coming up are handwritten, or hand-notated, it’s about half and half. Though most on the first letters were typed. The fourth letter was a comic.

Kate
Guest

This is definitely an eye-opening blog. I am a 32 year old single woman. English is not my mother tongue. I guess I didn’t realize men actually loved so deeply. At the end it comes down to the question of can I offer what I’m asking and looking for? That is: will I love my wife if she gains 40 pounds? Not 10, 40. Who cares about weight, will I love her if she is paralyzed in a wheelchair or has a grave mental illness? If you can say yes to these, you know there’s sth about her, as someone… Read more »