Girl’s Night Out

A Girl’s Night Out

I’ve been dating this girl for about 5 months now. She’s very attractive, I’d say an HB7 or 8. Her interest level is extremely high. I’d say in the high 90% bracket. She always calls or e-mails me when we’re not together telling me how much she misses me, etc, etc. And she expresses her feeling towards me in many ways when we are together. So my point here is that I know she’s really into me. And I play by the rule of keeping my interest level slightly below hers to keep things going. And it’s worked. Also, I apply all of the Game principals in our relationship. So I’m no chump with this girl and I feel that I have a good grip on the realtionship.

Her friend from New York is visiting her for four days. Her friend is single and young (25). Tonight they’re going out to a dance club with another girl whom they know who is also not dating anyone. This is all just fine. I understand that I shouldn’t discourage or show any type of insecurities regarding her going out with her friends. But I do feel that her two friends are going to be interested in the possibility of hooking up with some guys even though my girlfriend is not. It only makes sense since her one friend is from out of town, and they are single. This concerns me because I think it will put my GF in an awkward position.

I’m a bit confused on whether or not I should ask her anything about that evening in a playful manner when I talk to her next. In other words, what’s the best practice to do in this situation? Should I simply ask how her night went and if she had fun and just leave it at that? Or should I playfully poke at her about dudes hitting on her, and how girls can be naughty?

So the dillema is that on one hand, I don’t want to seem too passive about the whole thing. But on the other hand I don’t want to seem insecure. Part of me says that I should express some degree of protectiveness toward her in this situation. But I don’t want to send the wrong signal.

What are your thoughts

Let her go.

“You do know what happens when your girlfriend ‘gets drunk, he was cute, and one thing led to another,..’?!!” Yes, I’ve been the guy who nailed your girlfriend.

“You do know that ‘taken’ girls just want to live vicariously through their single girlfriends?” I’ve written volumes about it.

This is a very common shit test. Don’t even pause to think about it and do NOT let her perceive for a second that you’re even contemplating it. Be matter-of-fact and tell her you’ll see her when she gets back. Don’t tell her to call you, and don’t you call her. If she calls be concise and ask her if she’s enjoying herself, nothing more – no details, nothing. Let her be as forthcoming as she wants and never for a minute give her the impression you’re suspicious or posessive. This is the surest way to pass this test.

When and if she asks about what you’ve been doing, tell her you’ve been busy with work/school, your family, etc., (i.e. something unavoidably responsible). Do NOT say you’re out with the boys in some lame effort to counter her going off with the girls. Do NOT give her the impression that you are doing anything as a reprisal to her going off with the girls. Do NOT give her the impression that you are pacing around the house waiting for her to call or sulking. In fact I’d advise letting your voicemail pick up the call and then call her back an hour later, if at all.

I’m sure many guys reading this are experiencing the twangs of possessive insecurity even in my suggesting this course of action. The reflexive response most guys will have in a situation like this will be one of mate protection; the fear being that if they don’t express their disapproval they’ll run the risk of their woman thinking they don’t care enough about them to be jealous. This is a trope most guys sell themselves, because it’s more about suspicion than jealousy. As intuitive as this sounds it really masks the insecurity that their girl will meet another guy and hook up with him. On an instinctual level we’re well aware of women’s pluralistic sexual strategies, thus an evolutionarily honed suspicion was hardwired into our psyches to protect men from becoming the beta cuckold provisioning for another male’s offspring. However, as counterintuitive as this sounds, a GNO is an excellent opportunity to display confidence behaviors.

The GNO Shit Test

The secret of the GNO (girls night out) shit test is, the truth of the matter is, that if a woman is determined to cheat on you, there’s really nothing you can do about it. You can protect your own genetic interests, but whether it’s on a GNO or with some guy from the office, if a woman wants to fuck, she’ll find a way to fuck and all the psychological, possessive arm twisting in the world wont change that desire. The covert message in this is what’s important.

Remember, a woman’s default is to communicate covertly. When you are indifferent to her proposition of a GNO it sends the message that you are confident enough in your own ability to replace her should she cross that line. Let her imagination work for you. Women love to convince themselves, “he trusts me implicitly” while they secretly sift through your text messages, but the covert message is really a veiled threat and exemplifies your self-confidence. Bear in mind it’s what she feels in this communication. If you leave her with the feeling that you’re clingy, possessive, sulky and worried, the impression she has is that you’re weak and are the kind of guy that women settle for, not compete for. Essentially you make her the PRIZE by voicing your insecurities. Alphas don’t worry about their plates on GNOs, in fact women enraptured by Alphas don’t see the appeal of GNOs.

A Prince isn’t worried about the behavior of one woman when he has several more on the royal speed-dial; one more testament to the power of abundance thinking and Plate Theory. This may or may not be the case, but the impression of it and the covert communication of it is vital. If, by your actions you can leave her with the feeling that you have a lot going for you, you’re in demand, that you are a commodity that other women will compete for, that you are the PRIZE; you plant the seed of doubt and she will voluntarily curb her desire to go on GNOs – and this is the outcome you’re striving for. You want your attention to be more rewarding than the attention she’ll receive on a GNO. You can’t force this into being so, but you can covertly manipulate her desire. You want her to talk herself out of going.

Learn this now, making a woman cognizant of higher sexual market value can only be demonstrated, never explicated.

Disclaimer: At this point I should also add that this in no way excuses the woman who CONSTANTLY goes on GNOs as some kind of ritual with her girlfriends. This is symptomatic of a larger problem and this, again, is based in desire. If you ever find yourself in this circumstance your best recourse is to NEXT and remove your attentions entirely. Women who have a regular GNO in LTRs are seeking something vicariously through their friends that they feel deprived of and need a fix for to feel completed. It’s only a matter of time until the right circumstances arise for her to consolidate on that deprivation. Better to cut your losses on a bad investment than play the cuckold for a woman who has no genuine desire for you and regularly demonstrates this in her behavior.


I’ve known seasoned players who’d pee themselves over a girls night out proposition, but I always advise they adopt the attitude that she’s free to go do whatever she’d like. In fact I’d encourage it. That’s where confidence makes you a man, when you can say “go ahead, have a good time.” It’s what’s implied in the action that counts. If a woman (or man) wants to cheat, they’ll find a way to do it, with or without your knowledge. The only person who’s actions you can control are your own. Now, would it suck to break up a marriage over that? Yes, but I’d rather it be dissolved than to live disingenuously one minute longer than necessary.

If I locked my wife/GF up in a closet that only gives credence to my insecurity about my relationship and changes the nature of my LTR. In fact, in doing so the frame automatically transfers to a woman the moment you become possessive, because you confirm for her that you lack the confidence to generate new options (i.e stimulate competition anxiety) – to be a man that other women would desperately want should she decide to cheat. You must be a Man that your GF/Wife doesn’t want to cheat on. Sometimes a woman can’t appreciate this because she’s too immature to get it, but you have to be the Man confident enough to say “do what you want” while communicating higher value. As I’ve stated before, when your silence inspires more dread than your words, you’re probably an Alpha.

A lot of guys have a real tough time with possessiveness. What they tend to overlook is the element of desire. If you’ve got a girl who want’s to go off with the girls to Vegas for a weekend the operative in the whole situation is that she WANTS to go. While I do understand the necessity of ‘mate protection’ this desire is already established BEFORE you issue any ultimatum (which is a declaration of powerlessness). If she had a fear of loss to begin with she would’ve passed on the trip because she had a genuine desire to do so. In fact considering it wouldn’t even be an afterthought.

This is the Desire Dynamic – you can never force a genuine desire by means of coercion or negotiation. You can pay a woman to fuck you, it doesn’t mean she wants to fuck you of her own volition. The girl still wants to go to Vegas even if her man were to give her an ultimatum, and in addition he comes off as an optionless, possessive chump. I realize the idea is that if he’s uncompromising and she magically respects him she’ll develop a real interest level in him because he put his foot down as a “real man”, but the damage is still done. Her desire isn’t for him, it’s for Vegas, even if she says “OK honey, you win”. It’s not genuine.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

140 comments on “Girl’s Night Out

  1. Good post. I agree there’s nothing you can do here but just let her go. If she crosses the line it’s over. If you communicate this subtly, you’ll get your real answer (either she desires you enough not to do anything stupid, or she doesn’t). One of my bosses is an older woman who I’ve known for a couple years and she has confided all sorts of things. She’s been married for 25 years and her husband works at the same office. At one point she wanted a fling with me. I turned her down (it was strategically disadvantageous), so she proceeded to have one with another co-worker (we are both much younger). This is despite the husband doing everything to “lock her up in the basement”.

  2. If your in a LTR or Marriage and she GNO’S or Vegas it means a lack of respect for you. More reason to emotionally disconnect from these cunts.

  3. I agree with flybynight. You can’t forcibly stop a woman from doing what she wants, but if she is doing these things more than once in a blue moon, she is practically worthless as a LTR prospect. Better to next these girls quickly, as they have no respect for you.

  4. ohhh, poor guy – what should I do? Do not give her the impression of this, of that, do this, do that. How long could be this poor boy able to walk that rope? His lill miss could do as she pleases but he has to follow the script so that he..ehm…will not give the wrong impression? He has to qualify to be worthy of her cos otherwise, she could leave. It is no miracle that wester women are so fucked up when guys are thinking this way. Poor omega.

    Answer to shit tests is not to meet them – it is dancing to her music. Ignore them. Ignore her unless she is doing something you like. DO WHAT YOU WANT. How you feel. Do it as a man – without fear. If you do not want her to go there – tell her. Firmly and strong. As a man. If she accepts – ok. If not – dump her. If she is in love with you – she is in acquisitive mode, she will respect and follow opinion of her man. If not, it is over.

  5. I’m a tad conflicted on this topic. I do agree with Rollo that you should let your girl go out with her girlfriends. Putting up resistance will instantly expose your insecurity and devalue your market price (in her eyes). However, if you are in an LTR/Marriage and your woman continually does GNOs, your in trouble. This behavior should have been corrected early in the courting period, by YOU. So obviously if she is still doing this regularly, you weren’t doing what you were supposed to. And gentlemen like myself have hooked up with women on GNOs. Its pretty easy actually. It’s all up to you. Maintain frame and if she goes “off the reservation” one too many times, there are plenty of others to replace the disrespectful child.

  6. “gregg” for the win!

    although i agree with the advise given, “i.e. you should be so confident in your position that her GNO is no big deal” the fact of the matter is that if you don’t have the mindset and actual ‘hand’ in the relationship that ONLY comes from the mindset and subsequent actions that gregg described; you are going to fail anyway.

  7. Great post.

    Here’s the big difference on indifference.

    “Go ahead – have a good time” (as described above) = Alpha.

    Ex post facto tolerating of bad female behavior = Beta.

    This is what I have so often seen – betas rationalizing bad female behavior because they claim not to be “insecure” – OR other women tell them they shouldn’t be so insecure.

    E.g., “She kissed another guy while she was drunk, but hey, we all make mistakes/I had been distant with her/she’s sexually forward/she was just drunk.” Etc.

    I’ve said it before. Women who don’t want to lose their man will not engage in activities that even gives the faintest whiff of bad behavior. Women who don’t care will exercise no such discretion, and will be happy to question your confidence should you protest. If it looks like cheating, she’s either cheating, or she doesn’t care if you think she’s cheating. Either way it’s a Next.

  8. I’m not sure there is a right answer to his question. It’s like the question “should you spank your child”. That depends on the relationship between the parent and child. Sometimes it’s helpful and appropriate, other times it causes more harm than good.

    There are some women who require and appreciate a tighter leash. Some who you can give more leeway. Now a lot of guys will say they only want LTRs with the trustable girls, and good on you, but that severely limits your pool of hot girls you can date.

    Rollo’s point is right on that when she’s really into, she won’t even want to go without you. And that if she does want to do that often, it’s a problem right there. So the answer to the question really happens in all the actions you do before the issue even arises. It should be a question only in the early stages of an LTR, as if it’s happening after a month or more of having spent a lot of time with each other, you haven’t deepened your lust and passionate bonds much, and you’re not on schedule. In which case letting her go would imply letting her go and going out on dates.

    But I think after the two of you are an item, and very emotionally bonded, as the man you can allow or deny permission, and you can say no. I do. My girl asks me for permission and I simply say no. I’m not stupid. She’s going to get hit on all night by very attractive men. Why would I wasn’t to let her get addicted to that entertainment? Once I let her go out with her girlfriend to the clubs – showing all the indifference Rollo suggested – but the other times I just laughed and gave a terse no. It’s just my job to set boundaries – she’s free to leave me if she doesn’t like them. That’s my abundance – take it or leave it, but these are the rules.

  9. I should clarify that my situation is a live in one, and we’ve been together nearly two years now.

    Living apart is much trickier. If apart I’d take it a sign that the girl is still keeping her options open, and react accordingly. By trying to diversify my heart investments.

  10. Rollo, you nailed it.

    I might add that if GNO’s (esp. with single friends) start to crop up more often as the relationship this is a red flag. To pile on to Sam’s comment I have corrected this situation a couple of times basically by instilling dread. One GNO every “blue moon” is no big deal. If she’s doing it regularly it’s time for a breakup or at minimum “I’m not sure I’m ready for a relationship right now”.

    Gentlemen, there is nothing healthier for a budding relationship than a breakup.

    My experience: A girl 15yrs my jr began doing GNO’s with a single gal pal about 3-4 months into our dating. At first I didn’t flinch and behaved much like Rollo advises. However after a few of these I cancelled a weekend away, stopped calling her for a week. I really truly didn’t want to talk to her. When the call came I revealed “I’m not sure I’m ready for all this”. These we’re genuine sentiments too. When the inevitable demand for an explanation came I explained quite truthfully that I wasn’t sure that I was ready to be serious and I think she feels the same way. I didn’t tell her that one of the main tells from her was he GNO’s as well as some “green lighting” behavior I witnessed. I needed “a little time”.

    Long story-short it worked for a bit, then about 6 months later more green lighting behavior and we broke up for real.

    So there are tools to correct it but honestly you should view every relationship with a Western cultured girl as having an expiration date (barring exceptionally loyal behavior). Knowing that keeps your head right.

  11. My heart sunk at “I’m a bit confused on whether or not I should ask her anything about that evening in a playful manner when I talk to her next.”

    FAIL. Even before he gets started. Failtastic faileration.

    Like she won’t see straight through “a playful manner” and die a little inside once she witnesses the beta core hidden all this time careful alpha mimicry.

    ELIMINATE YOUR DESIRE. Put that on a Live Strong gummy bracelet. Write it on the mirror while you’re shaving. Tattoo it on your face. There is no substitute, no mimicry strong enough to imitate abject aloofness, except in con artists who lose themselves in the con. (I am beginning to see why PUAs worship sociopathy. Rather than expunging the lie, they live it so completely as to not notice it. That is not the only way.)

    If you have jealousies, somebody has to manage them. If she isn’t managing them already by precluding the possibility of even hinting at a reason for you to be suspicious, then you will take over management with thinly-veiled interrogations and insecure behavior. She should be the one on her toes, taking pains to guarantee her fidelity for fear of losing you.

    Otherwise, beat it, bitch. Enjoy your one-off with Chad the mulatto bike messenger.

    Have we not taken appropriate hypergamy containment measures up to now? If you are going to trust a girl to navigate a “near occasion of sin” alone, then the tangible dread of losing you must overcome her hypergamous pussy pulse at its least inhibited and most inebriated. That’s a lotta dread. Do you have it in you? Are you man enough? By the tone of the correspondence, I’d say no.


  12. Going out isn’t ‘a thing.’ It’s not a shit-test. Don’t make GNO a thing. Going out is what people do. HB7+ are always going out. You should always be out. Even when a girl texts you at midnight on Saturday saying I’m in bed, call me, tell her you’re out. Even if you’re sitting at home masturbating you tell her you’re out. HB 6-7 want guys they can go out with. HB8-9 want awesome guys who come alive while out. HB10 live out. If you are anti-GNO you have no experience with hot women. Yes, lots of young hot women are playing multiple men at the same time, get over it. You sound like pussies looking for “LTR-worthy” women, >6 partners who dont go out with friends. Why? Because you just described ugly women. Game is meant for the social miasma that is going out, in venues, with lots of people who all know each other, participating in the tribe, socializing with humanity, planting a flag in the sexual market. Otherwise it’s just logistics. You know those cool kids from where you grew up? They all know each other. They all know each other’s sexual market value. A lot of pickup is just taking advantage of the illegibility of your SMV as a new-comer or stranger. Many choice girl’s A-guys have clearly-defined social value in a community- people know who they are. Hot women have multiple guys because they have to get commitment by a high value male before they expire- and the high value men aren’t committing. Do you want a hot girlfriend? Do you really want to become a high value man? This is what game gets you, this is the world you’re graduating into, nerd.

  13. I don’t feel you’ve answered his question. From the tone of his email it seems like he knows that he can’t stop her from going out whether he approves or not.

    What he’s saying is that his girl will be out with two single friends and he’s concerned that his girl will be peer pressured in to hooking up if both her single friends do so. He wants advice on how to get the details of the night without looking or sounding as insecure as he feels about it.

    In my experience there are two options. The first would be to say nothing, she’ll probably end up telling you without asking. I remember watching a presentation from a cop and one of his main points was that people want to tell their story, especially when they’ve done something wrong or questionable.

    The other option is to ask her in a general, non-direct way such as “How was your weekend?” or if her friend was in town for an extended amount of time “How was Sara’s visit?”. You can ask follow up questions depending on how she answers but it can seem out of character if you two don’t engage in small talk very often. I do this because I spend a lot of time on the phone for work so I’m always engaged in this type of nothing conversation and it doesn’t come off as forced or unnatural. I get a lot of flack from my girlfriend for asking a question and not really paying attention to the answer.

    Also, as Rollo stated, DO NOT engage in any sort of one-upmanship; your time was spent with work, sleep, gym, family, menial tasks, or “not much”.

    Lastly, passive isn’t so bad. It’s separated from indifference only by perception. And protectiveness in this situation is impossible because you’re trying to protect her from herself and that will only be met with contempt.

  14. I know this is a slight diversion but what about in the case of ‘whats good for the goose is good for the gander’. Guys have their boys nights out or fishing trips away or weekly poker games and women may feel it’s ok for them to have their get togethers as a response. Obviously these gatherings aren’t always a night out on the town but it is one of many options which may be the preferred option if the single girls are in the majority. So maybe the tactic of producing a situation where she decides not to go is negated. Again if she is going to cheat then she will.
    I have been the guy to get the taken girl in the group on a girls night out and even the single, mother-hen, cock blocking friend tried to intervene and ‘save the girl from herself’ but to no avail. In some cases the single ones of the group come up empty handed while the partnered ones at least score something.

  15. Guys have their boys nights out or fishing trips away or weekly poker games and women may feel it’s ok for them to have their get togethers as a response. Obviously these gatherings aren’t always a night out on the town but it is one of many options which may be the preferred option if the single girls are in the majority.

    Sorry Jimmy, not to run you up the flagpole, but I was anticipating this response (from a woman). Men, and particularly those in exclusive relationships, rarely opt for a Boy’s Night Out that includes the express possibility of hooking up with women who they aren’t involved with. Most men being betas concerned with keeping the peace, fearful that their BNO might be deemed ‘carousing’. So they opt for the activities you mention; safe events that don’t imply a female competitive presence – fishing, poker, etc. – while still having some semblance of masculine appeal.

    When women get together for a GNO the express pretense IS to be in an environment of male competitive presence. Boy’s Night Out means, no women allowed, Girl’s Night Out means to be in the presence of as many men as possible. The purpose of a GNO is to be in an environment that accommodates female stimulation.

  16. Men, and particularly those in exclusive relationships, rarely opt for a Boy’s Night Out that includes the express possibility of hooking up with women who they aren’t involved with….

    I guess I was trying to encompass the broad spectrum for men’s activities from beta to alpha (but a boy’s night out – was a nightclub, bar, casino) – and a possible women’s counter response (as you were anticipating ).

    I have observed acquaintances (rather then what I would call friends, ex-work colleges I caught up with recently) who go out to places which have lots of young female prospects while their wives are at home. But maybe that says more about them. One could surmise they are the types to settle for a 6 or 7 – having seen their wives (and maybe having never tasted a 8 or a 9?) and like to go out to places and flirt but like the idea of nearly cheating but they can’t. An itch they want to scratch, they have settled, but feel they still missed out on something. These types like to put themselves in a position and if it doesn’t go their way they go home to the wife. I was thinking at the time surely you can’t expect the wife to not want to do the same. Or just what a bad situation to be in and thankfully it isn’t the way I operate.

  17. … it’s about the Poker Face isn’t it ?

    … for the opponent’s greatest strength is her illusion of weakness … and that is pitted against a Poker Face’s greatest weakness … his illusion of strength …

    … which is the face … and the demeanor … which hints at nothing.

    It must hint at nothing … no matter what the turmoil inside … and then to take those cards that were dealt, and to play them … and to play them well …

    … for the opponent is a master at reading you … for the opponent is a master at unsettling you … for the opponent is a master at getting reactions from you …

    … until the opponent meets a Poker Face …

    … and then the opponent must squint to get a better look … and then the opponent must resort to dramatics to unsettle …

    … and then the opponent must seduce for a reaction … only to find that the edge was lost at Poker …

    … welcome to the game …

  18. In the final year and a half of a long ago relationship, my desire to be with her waxed and waned. In true, unfaked lack of jealousy because of this, I didn’t give a shit what she did with her girls and if dudes hit on her at the bar.

    And it drove her absolutely bat shit (in a good way). It kept her on her best behavior, so much so that she would go out of the way to apologize to me if a dude hit on her.

    She was very hurt that I was ceasing to care, while trying harder to please me.

  19. I think ‘The Shocker’ had the best response so far. If we are all red pill guys who want to have females in our lives then we are going to be social creatures who are going to use some ‘night game’ to meet females. So why should any red pill, game aware man be shocked or upset if a girlfriend carries on socializing with her female crew?
    The responses from people saying if an LTR girl has a GNO she should be nexted asap, are totally alien to me. It must be a cultural thing. I live in the UK and here, there’s an overwhelming trend for social people to go out in mainly same sex groups on a Friday night (a few drinks after the working week, buy some unhealthy takeaway food and fall into bed in the early hours of Saturday morning). Then Saturday night it’s the general social convention to go out with your partner (or one of your partners).
    My longest LTR was 16years and we fell into a pattern of me going out with the boys on a Friday night and her going out with the girls on a Saturday night. This didn’t happen every weekend but at least a couple of times a month. That LTR didn’t last but that was down to my blue pill mindset and nothing to do with regular BNO’s (to bars and clubs not fishing etc.) and GNO’s (again, always celebrating a female friends birthday or hen night in a bar or club). A lot of the time a GNO can make your woman come home in a very horny mood. She may have seen or talked to some men who she finds sexually attractive. That primes her pump, add in the tipsiness from the alcohol and before you know it, you are getting woken up and begged for some freaky monkey love.
    Like I say, some of these responses are very alien to me. If you said to any man or woman over here “I told my girlfriend I didn’t want her going out” , you’d be met with confusion or howls of incredulous laughter, or both. It’s just such a non-issue here. It’s expected that a couple in a relationship will have somewhat separate social calenders.
    As some people have already said, if a girl wants to cheat on you she has plenty of opportunities to do so that don’t involve going out on the town in a mini skirt and high heels.

  20. Don’t under estimate the opportunities fishing affords the man looking to hook up with a young perk care free body. Maybe its different here in Australia to the Catskills in New York, for example, but the prime beach fishing ( i don’t fish myself) which allows beach camping is also the prime spots young back packers flock to when in Australia (it is the top 3 places they go, to camp, take in the scenery – but not fish). Many a tour company offers the complete SUV and camping equipment ( fishing equipment an optional extra if it strikes your fancy) package pitched at the endless streams of 18 to 24 year olds that visit Australia every year. You don’t need a group of people as they fill them with solo travelers as well. Local groups of men also have their fishing trips to these places. Don’t like fishing? diving trips offer the same prime opportunities. Want to take it off shore? Thailand, Indonesia etc is a short flight away.

  21. We are naturally monogamous unlike a man because our desire does not come from having different partners to sustain arousal.

    Men think sex is the same thing for a woman that it is for them but it comes from a completely different place.

    When women cheat it is not about appetite but insecurity first and foremost.

    [Women are naturally Hypergamous and the insecurity you’re addressing here is rooted in the subconscious level doubt that a woman could better optimize that hypergamy with a better prospective man. Thus hypergamy and the insecurity it prompts in women is their motivation to cheat.]

    When you meet a woman who will have sex with has many partners as possible look into her past because that is where you will find the reason.

    She is trying to get something she does not have and using sex to get it.

    [Yes, that something is an optimal hypergamy in favor of her concurrent substandard hypergamy as mitigated by her capacity to physically and sexually attract a better option.]

    It is not about release it is about acquistion and not always material,
    sometimes it is a blind effort to restore self-esteem.

    [Yes, the loss of self esteem that comes from the nagging doubt of a less than optimized hypergamy. “I can do better.”]

    Men waste so much time being jealous because either they choose a person who is broken and know she is untrustworthy or they are not leaving her feeling loved (wanted) because they are incapable of love.
    [Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.
    Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
    Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

    Girls Night Out at a club is very different than GNO where we go for
    walks, have dinner together, share hobbies and common interests,ect…

    Men and women occasionally need a break from each other because the
    genders are very different and there are some experiences that only
    same sex relations can provide for.

  22. “The attitude dictates that you don’t care whether she comes, stays, lays, or prays. I mean whatever happens, your toes are still tappin’. Now when you got that, then you have the attitude.” ~Mike Damone

    If a guy is bothered by his girl going out with her friends for the night then it just means that he did a poor job in finding a girl that he can trust to be committed and honest to him. Instead of losing any sleep over it he should just dramatically reduce his attention and availability to her, rethink his monogamous commitment to her, and start exploring new options and possibly find someone else that he can trust. No need for any mind games, petty arguments, or bullshit. When he pulls back he’ll know soon enough where he stands with her. She either come after him or she’ll move on. It’ll be done cleanly and without any loss of dignity or self respect. Life is too short.

  23. We should all stop treating these relationships as marriage-lite. They are not. You are simply renting with an expiry date. The rental should be doing her best to make you want to buy, not the other way around!

    Onto the specific: usually GNO groups are the hardest to approach. They seem to be more into shooting guys down as a competitive sport than hooking up. Plus she has her reputation to protect among her friends. I’d be way more worried (if I were a jealous man) about after work drinks, conference trips, dance / language / yoga / pilates classes – to name a few – than GNOs.

  24. @ jimmy: Aussie guy here. Whereabouts do these young hot backpackers go? I come from the bush originally and never got into beach fishing when I moved to Sydney. I might look into doing that as a great way to bang backpackers (prefer them to our local bushpigs) if I knew where to go?

  25. Very interesting topic and one that is relevent to me having got pissed off last saturday night with guys constantly trying it on with this HB9 i’m seeing. Managed not to show it much, and realised later that I’m placing too much value on the girl, need to spin more plates and care way less. I am just not used to being with such a hot girl, i always went for hb 7-8 in the past, now the sheer volume of guys willing to have a go even when they see her tongue down my throat for half the night is rediculous – where is these dudes’ self-respect? I felt like lashing out but very glad I didn’t, that’s one way to make yourself look insecure and weak.

    I have to agree with The Shocker – great response btw. Since i got more sociable and started going out more and really enjoying it (i.e. coming alive), my plates have been getting hotter and hotter. I’m at the top of my game and there’s more to come. However he’s right – don’t worry about what she’s doing, you should be getting on the scene like a sex machine.

  26. Very interesting topic and one that is relevent to me having got pissed off last saturday night with guys constantly trying it on with this HB9 i’m seeing

    heartsie did a post on this just a couple of days ago:

    Very interesting topic and one that is relevent to me having got pissed off last saturday night with guys constantly trying it on with this HB9 i’m seeing

  27. We are naturally monogamous

    monogamy is a social construct, so ‘naturally monogamous’ is an oxymoron. you are opportunistically monogamous, aka naturally hypergamous.

  28. There once was a time when women weren’t even allowed to be in the company of men other than her relatives without some kind of escort. Not that I wish for the return of that type of cultural restriction, but I can’t help but wonder how it is we got to the point where society condones the act of single women going out, getting drunk with their single friends, and stumbling home at who knows what hour of the night smelling of pizza, cigarettes and booze.

    It is a symptom of the disease of the culture we live in. Nowadays you CAN’T have a say as to whether or not your girl goes out and drinks herself under the table with her slutty friends or has half a dozen guy friends she hangs out with who want nothing more than to bang the shit out of her because our culture tells her (and all of her friends) that it is acceptable, so you look like an insecure dick if you have anything to say about it..

    If you want to play that game all you can really do is display increasingly higher value so she has no reason or desire to partake of such activities. A woman who is constantly worried about losing her man has neither the time nor the desire to test the limits of a high value man.

    Discrete infidelity fellas….all the cool guys are doing it!

  29. GNO has nothing to do with anything.

    Know that a woman is ALWAYS looking for a better deal. Be OK with it. Build your strategy aroud it. Never invest long term. Be ready to pull out at a moment’s notice without a problem without hate. Let it be known. That’s your only control.

    Live in today. Never assume your relationship will be there tomorrow morning. When its time for next, you will know.

    Always have backup.

  30. @ good luck chuck

    It’s best just to avoid getting involved with the bar/club party girls beyod having them in your rotation as a fb. Guys make the mistake as I did attempting to be monogamous with such types and it rarely lasts. Night game is great for getting laid, not for meeting your potential life partner. There are plenty of hotties not into the party scene at all, it just takes day game and patience finding them.

  31. Any woman if given the right circumstances will cheat on you. The whole GNO thing is an attempt for them to play at this. It is the same as if you went by yourself to a brothel just to “see what that whole thing is about” and brought a bottle of Jack Daniels with you. The chances you’ll screw one of them is roughly 100%. A GNO is just a girl openly exploring her options, that is what is happening.

    No matter how alpha you act there is always a better alpha out there. What you are gambling on is that your status will defeat the status of *every other single guy at the bar that night* which is not something you can know. How to handle it? Well in our enlightened society where bad female behavior is not only encouraged but considered a mandatory constitutional duty you can’t defeat this but it requires you REQUIRES that you be better than everyone else in a mating situation. You are not. You can’t be. And with distance and alcohol whatever hold you have on her will be less.

    Blow it off in a nonchalant manner? Okay, she’ll fuck another guy whose better than you. Act jealous and say no? She’ll go anyway and fuck another guy. Going out to a bar with girls means she is looking to get strange. When this happens, battle over. You are not winning if the other team doesn’t show up because in time it will. All this razor edge tightrope walking nonsense of making sure you act this way or respond exactly that way is not the way an Alpha would handle this. It isn’t confident at all. Confident means dismissing her when behavior like this shows up.

    “You heading to a bar? For what? Right… okay.” Then end it. She’ll question you “Don’t you trust me?” answer – No of course not you are going to a bar to get drunk and hit on, duh!” Then distance. Punish swiftly – no texts, no talkies, no responses of any kind period for a week.

  32. Disagree totally.

    If she knows you don’t like it – and she will know – letting her do it is beta. Yes, maybe she will sneak out, but sneaking out and fearing that if detected, she will get a spanking will probably give her a thrill, and if it does not thrill her, will at least deter her.

  33. Why would I be concerned about her going on a GNO? I’ve seen other guys’ game, it’s nothing to be worried about lol even outside of the bar on game blogs where guys are actively trying to learn how to seduce women, most of them couldn’t seduce their way out of a paper bag.

    I’m more awesome than any guy she’s going to meet, it’s ridiculous to even consider worrying about it. Even if she did cheat, that would just mean she’s the dumbest girl in the world and would be doing me a favor lol

    Now if I was other guys I’d be concerned, because their girls might run into ME. 🙂

  34. I only do open relationships these days. Know how many girls who’ve been in open relationships with me (of various lengths of time from a few months to a few years), where they expressly have my PERMISSION to fuck other guys, go out and fuck other guys?

    None. Not even on GNOs. They just want to fuck me. Why? Hypergamy.

    Most hot girls aren’t looking to rack up a bunch of notches on the belt. They want to fuck the best of the best. They can get dick any time they turn around, they have 50 guys they could Facebook message saying “I’m horny” and a guy would show up at their door with his pants down. But they’ll ignore all those guys and chase you and wait for you if you’re higher value than all those other guys.

    “but yareally, you’re not 6’5″ and rich with a 6-pack and Ferrari!!! Other guys have that!!!”

    High-value is internal, not external. Welcome to game.

  35. Also if you’re dating hot young socially outgoing girls, they’re going to want to go party with their friends. That’s what hot young socially outgoing girls do. You can snuff it out but they’ll end up resenting you for it and so will their peer groups and now you’re fighting a whole army of gossipy girls.

    Now if your target market is old early 30s women with fading looks who have no friends or social life, or if you import a poor desperate girl from a 3rd world country and pay her to live with you, sure, ya, go ahead and tell her she’s not allowed to go lol

  36. YaReally & The Shocker are the ones talking sense here, be the PRIZE and it won’t be a problem. This isn’t about her, this is about YOU being insecure and not confident you can keep her from straying.

    As someone else said, it’s not the clubs you have to worry about, it’s the yoga classes, dance classes, tennis clubs, work socials etc where other high value males hang out. A majority of men in clubs have no game and are either shy, using gimmicky chat up lines or just using a scattergun approach and trying their luck with anything that has legs and a pulse. While they’re getting rejected again, i’m on the floor busting out moves and they’re swarming around to feed of my aura.

    Am i concerned about GNO? Hell naw.

  37. Bottom line is Hypergamy doesn’t care if you think you’re the prize, GNO, or if you’re insecure about GNO. Hypergamy doesn’t suddenly turn on during GNO, its looking to upgrade 24/7. So GNO is just what Rollo said, a shit test. If GNO with the girl your with bothers you, to me it’s an underlying trust issue.

    1. The best of girls is not trustworthy. If she is your main girlfriend, she can do better than you provided she is willing to accept a quicky in the men’s toilet without demanding all that tedious and inconvenient relationship stuff.

      Which she probably is.

      A girl can always screw better men in a quick fuck, than she can screw in a relationship. Even if you are a famous movie star, if you have a relationship with her, she can screw better.

      So, forbid girls night out, and beat her if she does it anyway.

      Don’t tell me you are so confident, you are such a star, that girls night out does not bother you. I know it bothers you, so she knows it bothers you, so if you let her do it, you look weak.

  38. Sorry, seen too way much of this this to listen to the “keep your game tight” tripe. Shocking revelation to the keyboard players here; a girl who *regularly* seeks GNO’s with her single friends at single venues where drinks/dancing/music all promote fking and sexual attention has a need, that you playa’, are not and cannot fill.

    A man isn’t insecure by recognizing who he’s dealing with – the ever present AW.

    It isn’t about the guy being insecure.
    It isn’t about if she’ll cheat on those nights.
    It isn’t loose game.

    It’s the recognition you’re dealing with damaged goods.
    It’s having personal standards that rise above merely getting laid.
    It’s weeding out people who’d make you their chump if you let them.

    Girls who constantly need to be reinforced with sexual attention from multiple males rack more notches than a thermometer. If you’re ‘secure’ enough to date a door knob (everybody gets a turn!) more power to you. These girls need someone to love em, lol. Just ignore the smirks as you proudly trot her around town.

    * A GNO once in a Blue Moon – no big deal.

    * Semi-frequently – a Red Flag, buyer beware.

    * Often? Well like they say in poker, if you can’t tell who’s the sucker at the table it’s probably you.

  39. Shocker: If you are anti-GNO you have no experience with hot women.
    ** Most attractive, feminine, well adjusted women are not club regulars.

    Yes, lots of young hot women are playing multiple men at the same time, get over it.
    ** Most attractive, feminine, well adjusted women will be selective, but then choose. Women who chose but still yearn for attention from eligible males are damaged.

    Shocker: Hot women have multiple guys because they have to get commitment by a high value male before they expire- and the high value men aren’t committing.
    * You’re reading too many ‘game’ blogs.

    ** A high value man doesn’t share his women.
    ** A high value man has standards for himself he’s willing to maintain.
    ** A high value man associates with high value people. If she needs to appear single to

    Until you are able to reject a “hot” girl because she doesn’t meet your minimum standards you haven’t reached the highest level of manhood.

  40. Edit:
    ** A high value man associates with high value people. If she needs to appear single (i.e ditch you) to get regular attention from other men while claiming to be committed to you….. she’s not high value. If you tolerate people treating you like this, neither are you.

  41. anyone that protests GNO is insecure. period. total beta. control freak. guys carrying around a lot of emotional baggage from prior heartbreaks.

    if you are dating someone and have tight game she won’t cheat. you can’t lock the girl up and take her from her friends. girls need other women to charge their feminine energy batteries. GNO accomplishes this. she’ll bring that energy back home with her and it will help the relationship.
    also, guys in a committed relationship go out too. i do. yes it’s fun to see and be seen. nothing wrong with a little ego stroking.

  42. redneck01.. that rule applies to men too. my gf is hot but not the hottest i’ve ever banged. however, at some point, it isn’t just about nailing the hottest chick or guy.. you grow out of that. both my gf and i respect the fact that if we don’t behave either one of us can be out like a scout on a new route in the blink of an eye. in fact, i broke up with her several months ago to prove that point. she knows i banged a lot of women when we were apart and still wanted me back. i have instilled the dread she needed. i’m a nice guy and she got a little cocky and thought nice means controllable. she learned her lesson. (btw, my gf makes more money than me and i make six figures.. degree of difficulty is much higher).

    so, do i fear GNO. nope. not at all. contrary to all you broken and hurt grown men/children, i understand rules of game and psychology enough to know a good woman when i see one. i’ve also healed the pain from my earlier dating life so that it doesn’t cloud my judgement. i see a lot of comments here from men that are in a lot of pain. before you can truly achieve alpha status.. you have to let that shit go. forgive yourself and the women that hurt you. women smell fear and pain in a man. it disgusts the healthy ones so you are left with the rapacious swamp sows you now rail against and no wonder.

  43. “Don’t tell me you are so confident, you are such a star, that girls night out does not bother you. I know it bothers you, so she knows it bothers you, so if you let her do it, you look weak.”

    You’re projecting your insecurities on us to make yourself feel better and protect your ego from admitting that you don’t really think highly of yourself. It’s like saying “well everyone steals” to avoid having to admit that you’re just a thief and a bad person.

    “i see a lot of comments here from men that are in a lot of pain.”

    Yup. I’ve noticed this is way more common in the Manosphere than the PUA community. I’d guess it has to do with PUA tending to attract younger guys without much experience with girls and the Manosphere tending to be discovered by older guys who’ve been thoroughly burned by women through divorces or massively failed LTRs, often more than once, and the angry MRA/MGTOW communities so there’s a lot more pain and bitterness here.

    It’s sad because it’s only going to hold those guys back, ultimately.

    Like seriously:

    “So, forbid girls night out, and beat her if she does it anyway.”

    Guys like this sound like extremely healthy well-adjusted socially adept alpha males who totally pick up and date hot girls regularly, instead of socially awkward angry men living bitter lonely Keyboard Jockey lives. Lol

    1. If she is not interested in sex with other guys, she is not interested in a girls night out.

      Girls night out is to meet guys. If she is in a relationship, she is either shopping for a replacement for her existing relationship, or, more likely, she is out to meet guys who would never give her a relationship, but she intends to offer them her services as a cum dumpster.

      Girls meet guys to fuck them, possibly to fuck them in a relationship, but if she is already in a relationship, likely for a quick pounding against the wall of the men’s toilet.

      If you “trust” a girl to have a girl’s night out, you are a loser, and she knows it. If she is not interested in sex with other guys, she wants her night out with you and your circle, not with a circle that mysteriously somehow fails to intersect with your circle, yet results in her encountering numerous males.

      If you are content with your girlfriend having a girls night out, you are content with your girlfriend being someone else’s cum dumpster.

      An actual girls night out would be at some girl’s house, and would include primarily girls, some of which you would know. Girls night out, is, in practice, a euphemism girls night out with the boys. If it actually was innocent, you would not need to trust that it was innocent, you could verify its innocence through the overlap of social circles. If you could trust, you would not need to trust.

  44. If she is not interested in sex with other guys, she is not interested in a girls night out.

    that’s your metric for it. not most womens. total projection

    Girls night out is to meet guys. If she is in a relationship, she is either shopping for a replacement for her existing relationship, or, more likely, she is out to meet guys who would never give her a relationship, but she intends to offer them her services as a cum dumpster.

    actually, girls get together to talk to their friends.. where ever they are.. a bar or a friends house. it’s what they use to drink in feminine energy. they need socialization with other women. i can see you don’t understand that. perhaps you will some day. until then, i’ll tell everyone here to ignore your childish, control freak metrics and agreements that justify your need to manipulate women.

    1. > actually, girls get together to talk to their friends.. where ever they are.. a bar or a friends house

      And, by an amazing coincidence, if they get together at a bar, there is never sufficient overlap in social circles to verify, hence the need for “trust”.

  45. “If she is not interested in sex with other guys, she is not interested in a girls night out.”

    Lol have you ever even been around a girl before? Or, you know, around other human beings in general?

    1. And when your wife or live in girlfriend went out on a girls night out, how often did she give you a phone number of her girlfriends house, or go to the pub with a social circle that overlapped with your own sufficiently that you could find out what really went down?

  46. redneck,
    my gf has a cell phone… she’s never been out to a place that i could spy on her and i would never spy to begin with. i can guarantee that it’s not the girls in your life that can’t be trusted.. it’s you and you are just projecting that internal distrust of yourself on them. get some help mkay?

    1. >she’s never been out to a place that i could spy on her and i would never spy to begin with.

      If your circle has some overlap with her circle, which it always does sooner or later if you are living together, spying comes free – unless she is making damn sure you cannot spy. I wonder why she would make damn sure of that.

  47. btw redneck.. i’m not saying your distrust isn’t valid sometimes. i dated a true sociopath once. she cheated and lied and put a lot of poison in me. i hated women for almost two decades because of her. one good thing about my tour in iraq and my post iraq divorce was that it made me address my emotional baggage i’d been carrying around. in my healing i discovered i’d let this woman and the damage she did to me affect me for decades. women had become sexual objects for me. i’ve healed enough that i can trust again and there are women worthy of trust. what kills me about some of the comments here is men are saying women can’t control their hind brains when away from their man. really? as a man, i have a need to fuck every hole i walk by.. but i don’t. i’m not an animal. i’m in charge of my loins. this may come as a surprise to many of the damaged men here but women can control their programming too.. in fact i’d say better than most men. that isn’t to say i’m not looking and my gf isn’t looking. people watching is natural but harmless (of course there is a line that can’t be crossed).
    bottom line, if you have a need to control your gf/wife, you need help. if you flinch at GNO, you aren’t alpha. nothing phases an alpha. he is the prize and fears no other man.

    1. > women can control their programming too..

      Suppose you are trying to control your weight. You take out a big container of your favorite food, roasted salted cashew nuts, potato crisps, whatever turns you on, six thousand calories in the container, and put it beside the television, planning to eat just one potato crisp.

      Well you were telling yourself you intended to eat just one potato crisp.

      Girls night out is like watching TV with a big sack of your favorite junk food right beside you. If she is a good girl, she is not going to put herself in that situation, because we are all animals, and women more so than men.

  48. Just curious Wes, how many men has your lady spread her thighs for? I bet you don’t even know or you believe her. Lol

    You have no excuse Wes you’re an older man. Nothing wrong with pumping and dumping harlots, always pay attention to her past behaviors and don’t get married.

  49. “Girl’s Night Out” these days is usually “Girls Leave the House Together and Meet up with a Group of Boys at the Bar Night Out”.

    Bachelorette parties are no exception. I have been invited to several (usually the chicks don’t tell you what it is before you get there), including one where a chick I was fucking for a few months ended up getting engaged to some dude she reconnected with at her high school reunion. We ended up back at a friends house at the end of the night with a few other people laying on the bed, her right next to me with her head on my arm. Had this chick not already left a sour taste in my mouth I could have asked her to come with me for one last romp in the hay before she tied the knot, but instead I got up while everyone was still partying and walked home.

    Bottom line- nothing good comes of this type of behavior and if your chick ends up in this kind of situation more than once every six months, it’s probably time to find a new chick.

  50. @wolf.. i’ve never asked. we’ve never talked about it. she was married for 20 years and only divorced for 5 when i met her. not that it matters but i’m certain my notch count is significantly higher than hers.

    do you seriously ask women how many men they’ve slept with? really? if you do and if you care it’s a sign you are insecure.

  51. “do you seriously ask women how many men they’ve slept with? really? if you do and if you care it’s a sign you are insecure.”

    No, I’m asking for you. You are starting to sound like a western woman, pretty soon you’re going to tell me.. “I bet you have a small penis too!” LOL

    Same old “you’re insecure” drivel. I have no plans on getting married so I don’t care if the women I date are sluts.

    Look, I’m not trying to kick the sluts out of your bedroom just pay attention to the red flags.

  52. @wolf
    “i have no plans on getting married” = i’m unable to find someone to marry

    don’t need someone that is emotionally insecure telling me what red flags are. thanks anyway. you go ahead and use whatever metric soothes your poor bruised ego. mkay?

    my gf and i don’t live together. i just moved to this area and i don’t have friends where she lives (about 35 mins from me on the other side of town). it isn’t part of her sinister plans.. just happens to be what it is.

    your potato crisp analogy is farcical. we are higher level animals with free will. we choose how to act. to practice self-denial or not. i’m sorry your baggage prevents you from seeing that. i’d seek help.

    1. > my gf and i don’t live together.

      Well in that case, it is psychologically plausible that you don’t care all that much if she is someone else’s cum dumpster. If you are not living together, you are still shopping around, and so is she. But if you were living together, thereby sacrificing for her, not so plausible, hence not psychologically plausible that you are untroubled by “girls night out”. Also, if not living together, not practical to stop her from shopping around for more dick.

  53. redneck..
    last response to you. i’m not shopping and neither is she. she lives an hour away from where i work. we met after i signed a year lease. i’m retiring in january and we will move in together then. every single metric you use as “psychologically plausible” is rooted in your damaged ego. you fear women and out of that fear think the worst of them. it’s sad.. you need help.

    you guys just don’t get it so i’m going to stop trying to explain. rollo nailed it in this post and if you can’t see that then i feel sorry for you.

    1. > . i’m not shopping and neither is she.

      As Reagan said, trust but verify.

      Absent social and legal institutions that enforce good behavior, love is war, hence our falling reproduction rate.

      You know that you are not shopping. How do you know that she is not shopping?

      Because you trust her so much that you are not going to check on whether she has a past or present as cum dumpster, despite behavior that is, on the face of it, suspicious.

      If you are not shopping, you are making a sacrifice. It is the nature of women, unless very firmly restrained, to demand entirely unilateral sacrifices, and then to be quite dissatisfied if they get what they demand. So if you don’t have evidence that your sacrifice is shared, it is likely unilateral.

      Women love drama, and making entirely unreasonable demands is one way of generating it. So they will push, until pushed back.

  54. If we can find a way to verify, I’m willing to bet real money that Wesley is female.

    Now can someone explain to me why women run interference for the sisterhood on men’s blogs?

  55. @xsplat.. right.. i created a fake facebook account with a fake 26 year career in the military and thousands of fake photos of my family and friends just to come here and mess with your heads.

    i’ve noticed at least two of you use attacking me as a woman as a pejorative. it speaks volumes about your inner psyche and what you think about women. however, if you choose to think i’m a woman because i disagree with you.. go ahead and think what you want. haters gonna hate.

  56. Pejorative? Now who is speaking volumes.

    If you’re not a woman, fine. But understand that you read like one. It’s not just about me and my opinion. You do.

  57. @xsplat… it’s an opinion… and i don’t care how you read me. if you think i read like a woman it’s because of some agreement, a false one, you’ve made with yourself.

    @redneck… i told you i’m not replying to your broken and damaged feelings about women. get help.

  58. @xsplat
    yeah right.. it’s a great blog post for a beta that doesn’t understand women. he’s broadcasting his distrust of women that is rooted in his lack of confidence. guess what? chicks dig confidence. it’s what sets an alpha apart from redneck and yourself. women will smell your fear a mile away and treat you accordingly. if you are having problem with women.. and it sounds like you have a lot.. i suggest you stop blaming them for your woes and take a look in the mirror.

  59. > he’s broadcasting his distrust of women that is rooted in his lack of confidence.

    Confidence is alpha. Trust is beta. If you trust X, you are vulnerable to X. Vulnerability is beta. People choose to be vulnerable, because they are afraid. If someone does not want to find out whether is girlfriend is a cum dumpster, this is because he is afraid that if he does find out, he is going to accept it and is going to be humiliated by his acceptance.

  60. I find this exchange hysterical.

    Dabney ,
    Trust all you want, and I hope for your sake that things work out for you. But never, ever underestimate women’s opportunistic nature to take full advantage of you. Read up on hypergamy and Briffault’s Law. Make sure you have a thorough understanding before sharing a roof with a woman.

    More importantly , describing yourself as alpha is very beta. Perhaps the most beta thing you can do. Show, don’t tell.

    I’m not bitter , I’m disillusioned.
    I’m not cynical , I’m a realist.
    I’m not an alpha , but I get what I want from women without selling myself into slavery or living under the same roof as them.

    Good luck.

  61. Hypergamy is about her wanting to fuck the highest value man. If you’re paranoid about her cheating on you, then you’re not the highest value man, and she can tell. It’s that simple.

    The only woman that’s impossible to seduce is a woman who legitimately believes (whether it’s objectively true or not) that her man is higher-value than every other man.

    I understand those of you who don’t actually pick up girls won’t be able to wrap your head around that so this is more for the benefit of the lurkers reading so they don’t get caught up in all the scarcity mindsets and insecure paranoia the low-value guys here are spouting. Yes, those guys SHOULD be paranoid and keep their girl on lockdown because their girls WILL cheat on them because if I can tell they’re low-value over the Internet, sure as shit their girls can too, and will happily jump ships if someone puts a high-value male in front of them…a GNO really IS a threat to them lol

    1. > Hypergamy is about her wanting to fuck the highest value man. If you’re paranoid about her cheating on you, then you’re not the highest value man, and she can tell. It’s that simple.

      The highest value man she can fuck as a cum dumpster is higher value than the highest value man she can have a relationship with. I know it, she knows it, and any man she is in a relationship with knows it.

      No matter how high value you are, if she is your girlfriend, she can fuck better, and on girls night out, will probably encounter them. She just cannot have a relationship with them.

  62. If you don’t trust a girl, either dump her or keep her at fb status. Trust should be the foundation of any half-decent relationship so if she’s a party girl and you think she’s probably a slag, use her for what she is and stop giving a crap about what she does when she’s not with you.

    Similarly, if she’s not that into you and you think she’s gona go for the next alpha that comes along, dump her and find someone who will appreciate what an awesome dude you are.

    If you do trust her then let her have her GNO’s. Trying to stop her will only push her towards someone less insecure and controlling and make you look pathetic (great for alienating her friends as well). If a girl told me i couldn’t have my BNO’s because she didn’t trust me, or if she wanted to attend every time to keep an eye on me, she’d be out the door faster then you can say LetsTalkAboutThis. Trying to impose double standards is a bitch move.

  63. I used to agree with these two statements:
    “Trust should be the foundation of any half-decent relationship”
    “Trying to impose double standards is a bitch move.”

    But now wonder why I ever held those assumptions. Perhaps it was my feminine imperative conditioning, but more likely I was just being naive. Men are not women, and double standards are inescapable. I have different standards for apples than I do oranges.

    And as for trust being foundational, that’s like having a unicorn be the foundation of you zoo. “Where’s the Unicorn Mommy?” “Oh, he’s in his cave, sleeping”.

  64. What I’ve noticed happen is that men seem to go through stages.
    1) Trust women
    2) Get life experience that leads one to not trust (most) women
    3) fork to either
    3a) Learn how to love the devilish whores as they are, or
    3b) continually search for that one elusive “the one” who is not like all the other girls.

    It seems most guys opt for 3b. The more naivety they lose, the more women they view as only suitable for fuck buddy status.

    I think it’s far more pragmatic and realistic to learn how to tame existing wild horses rather than search for properly trained horse with all the characteristics that you want. Women don’t come ready made off of the shelf, you have to assemble them and train them up yourself. Do you trust a puppy that you are training? Yes. To be a puppy.

    1. Women, like puppies, need a firm hand, and respond well to firmness.

      Hear all these people saying “Oh no, it is not alpha to forbid a woman from doing whatever she wants to do. Its alpha to let her walk all over you, it is alpha to trust a woman with no basis for the trust and no demand for her to earn it.”

      A relationship is a sacrifice by the man. He should get, in return, visible fidelity, a certain amount of respect, and his socks picked up ogf the floor and put in the laundry basket.

  65. Yes Rollo and out of genuine desire comes trust in the fact that neither party wants to lose the great deal they’ve got.

    xsplat – you can call it “feminine conditioning” if you like, but I can just as easily call your approach “BPD wh0re” or “dumpster slut” conditioning, as you’ve obviously had bad experiences due to poor judgement + screening – we’ve all been there and hopefully you are better for it.

    Yes, hypergamy affects every girl, but when they genuinely desire you and see you as their “A” guy then it can actually work to keep them loyal.

    It comes down to emotional investment – if you invest wisely (i.e. not in the BPD wh0re or dumpster slut) then you have nothing to fear.

    I agree that there needs to be double standards to some degree due to gender differences, but both genders need some time with their same-sex friends as part of a healthy relationship so this is not one of those areas.

    My main point:

    Saying no to a GNO is not “alpha”, it is in fact very beta and that is backed up by Rollo’s article. You should be questioning why you are emotionally invested in this girl, not why she wants to have a GNO.

    1. > both genders need some time with their same-sex friends as part of a healthy relationship

      If they go to a pub with their same sex friends, they are no more going to stay chaste than they are going to lose weight if they sit down at the television with a big bag roast salted cashew nuts.

      Girls go to the pub to get nailed.

      They can see their same sex friends in less tempting environments.

  66. yareally – there is a positive, open attitude, and excitement about women and all this pua stuff in you. It is very good. But please remember that many men that are in this MGTOW, etc. are divorced guys with children.
    Picking up women in bars and all this alpha/beta stuff is childs play and good adventure. Marriage with children is serious business.

    You can not expect from mature man with real experiences the same attitude you have. Everything has its time.

  67. Girls can be loyal. They can be in love and totally into the man. But I’d never therefore trust that she will remain that way under all circumstances. BPD or no BPD. Females with vaginas are not trustworthy, full stop.

    “You should be questioning why you are emotionally invested in this girl, not why she wants to have a GNO.”

    Oh, another graduate of the Ben Stein school of anhedonia, who studied directly under Mr. Spock. No emotional investments.

    No thanks. I bond to my women.

  68. I’m sure many commentors here with a long history of an active dating life will have stories of fucking married women and women with boyfriends. Some of us will even have knowledge of our own dates screwing around.

    The easiest cognitive trick to make sense of that is the “no true Scotsman” twist of logic. If the girl behaved like that, she wasn’t a true good girl. She was a slut, or had BPD, or was a cum dumpster. But the data don’t fit that pattern. All sorts of women from any background step out. I’ve fucked one woman who was married and monogamous for twenty years. I’ve fucked girls while they chatted with their boyfriends on the telephone.

    Hundreds of guys have the combined experiences to show that there is no pattern to fidelity. ALL women are a fidelity risk. Even if you marry her as a virgin.

  69. Genuinely curious,
    don’t waste your time. damaged males with damaged agreements aren’t rational beings. they will rationalize their bad behaviors, blame women for it, and then wonder why they always get treated badly by women.. further reinforcing their flawed logic. it’s a downward spiral for them and they soothe their egos by saying they don’t want a relationship. lol. let them swim in the shallow pool of game. picking up girls and banging them is for amateurs. it’s too easy. the LTR is the gold standard of whether you have arrived to true game mastery. redneck and xsplat don’t get it and should retreat to a more woman hater pick up artist friendly blog like the Chateau or Roosh.

  70. Genuinely_curious

    “It comes down to emotional investment – if you invest wisely (i.e. not in the BPD wh0re or dumpster slut) then you have nothing to fear.”

    You think you have ultimate control over the emotions of your woman if you choose the right ..ehm… You think that you have ultimate control over her loyalty. Basically you have choosen well and this lady WILL be loyal to you, cos she is the right, loyal and feminine woman.

    There was one sort of men that used to be damaged and assraped the most in divorces I handled. You can guess 😉

  71. Listen here beta Wes, you have to understand, not all western women are slutty but there are many. If you think your female is great, you haven’t experienced a non-western woman yet. I’ve had both, no comparison. You have no idea what you’re missing 🙂

  72. Gentlemen,
    perhaps we got off to a bad start. i never meant to pay your opinions short shrift and if i came across that way it was unintentional. i understand that for the most part, your opinions are valid however they are only valid in certain context.. and context is very important to me.

    in an attempt to assuage your fears, let me explain how i view things..
    1. i believe that women size men up using 5 variables (add or subtract if you like). all of them have to do with size.
    a. wallet. i have a net worth of almost a million dollars and it’s only going higher after i retire in january.
    b. brain. i have several degrees and i’m working on a masters in behavioral psychology (marriage and family counseling). my IQ is 135.
    c. muscles/body. i’m 6’1″, 235 lbs and less than 10% body fat. as rollo likes to point out.. this is a good thing.
    d. dick. again.. i’m in the upper 15% of males for size.
    e. heart. women want an emotionally secure and loving man.
    any combination of the first 4 will get you laid on a fairly regular basis however, it’s the final variable that will allow you to maintain an LTR.

    2. I go in to every relationship making very sure i pick a loyal woman. i don’t date ugly. i have an identical twin brother that married ugly. his kids are ugly. my daughters are smoking like their moms. it takes confidence to date a 9-10. i go in to this knowing men will be offering them dick everywhere they go. however, the women i date also understand the reverse is true. i’ll get offered pussy wherever i go. my gf and i were out last weekend. she wore a super tight and short dress to show off her muscular and tight body. we walked past a group of guys and one of them tried to get her attention. she didn’t notice but i did. did i blow up and go gorilla on him? no.. i got out my iPhone, walked up to him and said “hey bud, would you take a pic of me and my gf?” that takes confidence and the group of men noticed and gave me props for it. (please spare me any analysis on how she chose to dress. we both dress up when we go out and i have to fend them off too)

    3. the break up.
    my ex-wife died of cancer last year. my oldest daughter, 12, came to live with me. i was living with my gf at the time and both of her boys were grown and moved out. her hind brain took over and we started fighting about my daughter and how my gf didn’t want to raise any more children. we both handled it very poorly and ended up in counseling prior to the break up in an attempt to fix the damage. didn’t work fast enough and i ended up moving out and getting my own place because i’m a father first and i won’t date someone i feel i have to protect my daughter from. btw, she learned her lesson and no longer makes this an issue. she knows i dated. she knows i had sex with multiple women and the most painful part for her is that i wasted absolutely no time in doing so. no mourning period. we both continued to see the same therapist individually and worked out our issues. after two months we got back together and things are fine now.

    4. my father was an uber alpha.
    my dad had eidetic memory. he was an attorney and started and maintained several businesses on the side. he could skim a book on woodworking or auto maintenance, never pick it back up, and do everything in the manuals from memory. he succeeded at everything he did including turning my crazy mom in to a little kitten. he cheated and cheated and cheated and she blocked it out. she worshiped the ground he walked on. he was the quintessential male chauvinist pig and unapologetic about it. the were married 52 years before he died and the every year they were married he claimed “this is the year i divorce your mom”. my mom was a beauty queen in her day as well. this, imo, is the point that most of you women haters are missing and it’s the gold standard for alphaness.

    5. lastly.. my gf has seen me at my worst and stuck by me.
    i have PTSD and up until about 2.5 months ago i was a raging alcoholic (my ex-wife, the mother of my youngest, left me less than a year after i came back from iraq because of this). i’m a antagonistic drunk. i like to argue and fight and will create drama after just one drink. i gave it up but only after i put my gf through a years worth of hell. know why she stayed? she could see i have a good heart. she believed in me and she believed i was the guy she has always been looking for. if she can stay with me after what i did AND my therapist gives her a clean bill of mental health, she’s a keeper.

  73. @wolf,
    you presume too much. i lived in korea for two years. my ex-wife, the mother of my oldest daughter, was korean. please stop beclowning yourself. it’s embarrassing.

  74. @wolf PS
    i never said all western women are slutty. quite the contrary. you are confusing me with the woman haters here.

    also, i lived in europe for 9 years and visited over 22 countries. the mother of my youngest is from El Salvador. i’m well traveled and well versed in women from many cultures.

  75. The best of women cannot resist temptation, hence the stories of Eve, Pandora, and Medea. A good woman refrains from going into situations where she will be tempted. A good woman obeys her man when he commands her to avoid such situations. A good woman submits to male supervision that restrains her from succumbing to temptation.

    Women need male authority, need double standards, because they lack self control and have short time preference.

    Observe any long lasting successful marriage. The husband commands, and the wife picks up his socks. That is alpha. “Trusting” a woman to always have self control 100% of the time when she deliberately goes into situations that will strain her self control is not alpha, rather it is an announcement that “I don’t wanna know, because if I knew she was covered in other men’s cum she would make me lick it off and say it tasted like chocolate!”

  76. I don’t know if this is an American thing, but the majority of GNO girls leave clubs in groups of girls. Girls in groups rarely hook up in Europe, for various reasons. They don’t want to appear as sluts in front of their friends and they also cockblock each other out of jealousy etc. Another common observation is the ugly girl who gets ignored mostly by guys and then becomes the cockblock for every other girl out of frustration.

    But the main reason girls go out on GNOs is their ego. They go to a club, stand in circles, “have fun dancing” but actually enjoy shooting down guys one after another.
    It boosts their ego to be sexually desired and they even admit to that. I asked various hot girls “do you enjoy getting male attention and rejecting the guys?” and not one has said no. Sometimes when I see a girl in a club dancing with some AFC next to her for 10minutes, not being able to make the move, I say to her “I think that guy is into you.” Most of the times they say “yeah I noticed” or “yeah but he’s too shy to make a move.”

    So, given that a) girls don’t go out on GNOs to be a cum dumpster and b) even if they would, most guys in clubs are idiots without balls, I am not concerned at all with GNOs.

    If she happens to cheat so be it, good for me actually because then I know I have a bad hand and should fold.

    Also, I think it’s an Urban Legend created by the man-o-sphere or PUA guys, whatever, that girls are total sluts and function as a cum dumpster ever night they go out with their friends.
    I might be wrong in regards to America, but it is certainly not the case in Europe. Yes, people hook up here, a lot, but not as excessive as the interwebs wants you to believe. If it was that way, we’d have a lot less comments in blogs like this.
    I study psychology and have access to scientific research databases. There are a number of studies on sexual mating behavior. A lot include surveys about a persons sexual behavior. Since the majority of people who take these surveys are college students I think the sample is pretty accurate.
    Women (mostly college girls, 18-25) report 5 sexual partners on average, depending on how they are questioned (direct questioning ~4 partners, indirect questionen and some clever methods count ~5 to 6 partners).
    Assuming that a girl loses her virginity at 16 or 17 years on average, then we have a number of 4-5 guys on average a girl has screwed since she is of legal age. The mean age of girls who take part in these surveys is ~21 I guess, so that would be 5 guys in 3 years.

  77. “If she happens to cheat so be it, good for me actually because then I know I have a bad hand and should fold.”

    I have a hard time believing that in a real life situation that would be your real life emotions.

    Humans get jealous. And you are human, right? I say that because a lot of men seem to try really really hard to stop having emotions. Too “clingy”.

    But no matter how many times you tell yourself that you don’t care, either
    1) you really don’t care, in which case you are not that into the girl, or
    2) you do care but would rather pretend that you don’t, so as not to feel vulnerable.

    Here is a novel concept:
    mate protection.

  78. I’m not saying that I wouldn’t feel bad in that situation, but I would certainly think so after a couple of days have passed.

    1. Before civilization started to decay,which is to say before 1830, women were never allowed to have unsupervised contact with strange males, because it was expected that they would fuck them, causing the collapse of the family and thus society.

      Well guess what. They did fuck them, the family collapsed, and now society is collapsing.

  79. In all sincerity Wes, it does seem like you have alot going for you. You seem to have tangible attributes and accomplishments from which you derive your confidence, which makes your confidence seem genuine to me.So yes, given what you have going for you and what not it would be more difficult for your woman to find a man of higher value. So when you say that the guys expressing concern about loyalty are just “lower value men”, there might be some truth to that. However, that only goes to prove the point that they’re making. I think what’s trying to be conveyed is that women are still typically looking to trade up, it’s just that in your case that may be more difficult. So while your circumstances may be different, it doesn’t make what alot of men are saying on here wrong.

    Also, another thing to consider is the age of the women you’re with. Correct me if I’m wrong ( I can’t get back to the older posts right now to verify) but I believe you said your current woman was married 20 years and divorced 5 when she met you. This easily puts her in the 40s and maybe older. That’s not to say she isn’t still attractive (she is), but a woman at that age has somewhat different wants/needs than a woman in her 20s, which I suspect the majority of men here are dealing with. Hypergamy – the desire to “trade up” so to speak – never entirely goes away in a woman, but it certainly wanes with age.

    I read a good comment on a Heartiste post a while back that I feel bears repeating (not verbatim): “The takeaway from the manosphere is that while not everyone can be top dog, no one has to be a victim”. I think thats the purpose behind some of the comments being made, to aide in the detection of warning signs. The harsh reality is that for some men, they will almost always be respected by women; and for others, women will always be attempting to take advantage of them if they let them. And in truth, from my observation and experience, women who are really into their men really aren’t too into the girls nights out. Girls night out is dinner at most.

  80. Here’s what gets me, and I’m open to suggestions on this, but how can one NOT care about fidelity and not get jealous when they’ve invested themselves in a relationship and their investment is being met with disrespect at times? The purpose of an investment is a return on that investment in some form or another. So just by the nature of the relationship, you’d have to have some sort of outcome dependence (just like stock investments and one’s desire to make sure they’re profitable). It seems like some people manage that well from what I gather in the comments.

  81. > So, given that a) girls don’t go out on GNOs to be a cum dumpster

    If a wife is actually in to her husband, she has no interest in Girls Nights Out in the pub.

    It being easier to observe whether a wife is in to her husband, than whether she is a cum dumpster.

    This correlation is evidence that girls that go out on a girls night out, are cum dumpsters.

  82. One last thought (I drank a red bull for the first time in a while so I’m on a roll)….

    Not just from this post, but from other one’s i’ve seen the saying along the lines of “all girls in the modern world go on GNOs, it’s normal” in the comments section. Yes, this is true, but this needs to be placed in the context of hypergamy. The modern, “normal” dating scene exists in the context of a world in which there are not checks for hypergamy. It’s due to the overall fem-centric nature of current society that facilitates the pursuit of hypergamy. Now I know that I’m not going to win any fans by saying this, but here’s the somewhat ugly truth on “normal”. It’s normal because the average girl doesn’t have what they perceive as a top-tier man (hence why they are the average girl). So the majority of women (i.e. “normal” women) won’t feel like they’ve maximized hypergamy. Ergo, the “norm” is the continued pursuit of this, which the modern dating scene is designed to facilitate.

  83. “Here’s what gets me, and I’m open to suggestions on this, but how can one NOT care about fidelity and not get jealous when they’ve invested themselves in a relationship and their investment is being met with disrespect at times? The purpose of an investment is a return on that investment in some form or another. So just by the nature of the relationship, you’d have to have some sort of outcome dependence (just like stock investments and one’s desire to make sure they’re profitable). It seems like some people manage that well from what I gather in the comments.”

    Most people don’t understand what love (I assume there is love involved in a relationship) is about.
    Love is not about investing and expecting something in return. This is programmed disaster.
    Love is not give and (expect) take.
    Love is giving without wanting anything in return. Isn’t there a saying, something like “if you love someone, let him/her go and see if he/she comes back”?

    Also your stock investments analogy has the same basic problem. Stock investors are advised to be absolutely outcome independent. The outcome is not completely in the investors hand, so it makes no sense to be attached to something you can not influence.
    Same applies for a poker player (which I am), if you are attached to the outcome (whether you win or lose) you are doomed. You will lose at times and then lose your mind along with everything in front you. Same applies to stock investors and relationships.
    Note that outcome independency doesn’t mean you don’t do your best to maximize your expected outcome.

  84. – You cannot stop hypergamy by denying GNO’s, in fact I would argue that you encourage it by displaying betaness

    – It is normal for girls to spend some time out with their own gender, and we all know from experience it is much harder to snag a girl who is in a group, often they are not interested at all, what does that tell you?

    – Time and energy is better spent on improving yourself rather than trying to own your girlfriend’s schedule. Honestly, I would find it a utterly humiliating if I found myself trying to control someone elses schedule because I’m too insecure

    Remember – the girl sticks herself to you, not vice versa. I am a rock, not a weed. I am always prepared to walk away if it is the best thing for me, even if it means ripping my heart in two and rebuilding it. She will always be losing out more than me, so what do I fear from hypergamy? Nothing.

    Game-aware men use hypergamy to their advantage, they don’t fear it and whine about it on forums. “Unbridled hypergamy” blah blah blah, you are one of the fortunate men who know about it and have access to game material, 95% of men never will have the opportunity to learn game the way that you do.

    If you think all women are bad, sluts, etc then you are wrong and you need to look inside yourself to find out why you are only bringing these types into your life. Make positive changes and find positive influences drawn to you.

    But whatever, I know some people here will never take this on board because they can’t, they are not mentally or emotionally strong enough. They are forever playing the victim and don’t know anything else – well here’s a bit of knowledge – hypergamy is not good or evil, it simply IS.

    Everyone is free to live how they want. Every path has challenges, and mine is no different, but I believe this approach is the most positive and will get you the positive and sustainable relationships we all eventually want. It is best not to stifle the individuality of others, and in return ask that they do not stifle yours.

    Very interesting topic btw and I’ve enjoyed the debate :]

  85. @patrick:

    Very good points, I agree. Here’s what I guess gets to me. I’m seeing a girl, having fun, truly not dependent on an outcome but then she pushes for a relationship, to take things to a “more serious” level. However, it seems the expectation is for me to take it to a more serious level while she’s not really meeting me halfway on it.

    I agree with you on what love is or at least ought to be, but that makes me think love is really something that exists between parents and children, not men and women. That saying you mentioned “if you love someone, let him/her go and see if they come back” reminds me of something. I was casually seeing this girl whose previous relationship was an “on and off for a few years type”. Meanwhile, she was the one with her hand on the on/off switch. She’d dump the guy when some better option came around, got hooked up with the other guy and when that fizzled out, she’d go back to the original guy and he’d take her back. So where’s the love on her part (I think Rollo has mentioned before about how a woman can’t love the same way a man loves a woman)? She just seemed to like the fact that he was so “in love” with her because it made him an easy fallback plan, a sucker if you will. How can this guy be in love when he’s constanty being screwed over and disrespected? At what point, regardless of love, do you simply stand up for yourself?

    All in all, I think alot of the problems guys are describing here could be mitigated if they took more time to vett the women they get into relationships with.

  86. Dump her for even asking. Find a new one. You already know you’re able to attract good looking women from past experiences so why worry about losing one who isn’t treating you right? Yes it might be a bit painful since she’s been saying how much she likes you and stuff but you gotta realize from this behavior that she isn’t long term relationship quality and move on. Let her go on her ‘GNO’ single and go out yourself and find another one. Or mourn for a day or two and then go out, but I would go out right away.

  87. I’m long gaming a girl who lives in a different country that I met. There are feelings there on both sides (possible oneitis, I’m afraid to report) and I’m confused as to what point bringing up the pick-up aspect of my life into conversation with her should be (she already knows about it and we spoke about it in person, but I’ve been reluctant to since we have only been speaking online from different countries so as not to “lose her”). How do I communicate “I picked up a girl’s number at the bar” or “I’m going on a date with a girl” without driving the girl that I like away whilst keeping the dominant frame, showing that I am and keeping myself at a higher value, and keeping her chasing?

    Another point, after speaking to some people who do game is that men are happy to treat girls as numbers but when the role is reversed, it’s not such a great feeling. In the same situation, again, how do you communicate all of this without her thinking “well, we like each other but if he’s going to fuck other people I’m going to fuck other people too”?

    [Say goodbye to your Invisible Friend]

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