At the risk of leaning too far into the Athol Kay demographic, over the weekend I had some thoughts inspired by the Wife Porn thread that I thought were relevant.
It never ceases to amaze me how readily divorced women (and sometimes thrice divorced) are to dispense tips on the makings for a great marriage. Or more fascinating, to hear pussy-whipped husbands parrot these same lines. A divorced guy’s marriage advice is usually “just don’t get married.” So allow me to toss in my two cents here.
In all the years I’ve been counseling men I have yet to have a guy tell me he’s getting more sex now than when he was single or dating his wife, but sex isn’t the issue here – desire is the root of the problem.
As I’ve stated in many previous posts, properly motivated, women will move across the country, crawl under barbed wire and out a 2 story window to fuck a guy she has the genuine desire to fuck. This applies equally to your wife of 10 years. Before marriage women look for ways to get laid with a guy they want to marry, after marriage they look for ways to avoid it, but it’s desire that motivates it.
Chris Rock says it best when he goes into sex after marriage –
“If you like fucking, marriage aint for you. I haven’t fucked in 8 years. I’ve had ‘intercourse’, but I haven’t fucked since I got married. I haven’t had a blow job in 8 years. I’ve had ‘fellatio’ but I haven’t had my dick sucked in 8 years.”
This is the essence of desire after marriage; it generally becomes another chore to add to a woman’s to-do list. Get the kids to soccer practice, go get groceries, fuck her husband and fold the laundry. Add a fulltime job to that list and sleep becomes the new sex. But it’s not about being tired or overwhelmed, it’s about desire. My wife used to work a night shift and if she came in at 2am and woke me up telling me she felt like having sex, I could be in the deepest of REM sleep and wake up to knock it out with her and be ready to go for two, because I want to have sex with her. Women love to play the “but I really want to, I’m just not into it now” card to counter this, but as always, never forget it’s her behavior that defines intent, not her words. Remember, a woman will fuck; she might not fuck you, she might not fuck me, but she will fuck somebody. She just needs to be properly motivated.
All of those preconditions she had for you to accept YOUR offer of marriage – a good job, be a good provider, a good listener, be funny, have status, being reliable, a good physique; all of that does nothing to increase her desire to have sex with you. The single, bachelor is concerned with Interest Levels, the married man should be concerned with Desire Levels.
So how do you prompt this Desire? How do you get a woman who knows every intimate detail about you for the past 10 years properly motivated to fuck you like she did when you were 20-something? Women will offer the Oprah-correct, “more romance!” and men will roll their eyes and murmur “more alcohol.” Put out of your head right now all of these feminine-correct notions that you need to “rekindle the fire” or find some gimmicky ritual that will lead you back to that desire she picked up from some article in Cosmo – I’ve gone down that road before. ‘Date Night’ is a band-aid for a symptom of a larger ill and this is a prolonged lack of Desire. There is nothing worse than going through the motions of a pre-planned, pre-scripted, ‘date-like-you-used-to-have’ only to have your wife lay on the bed like a dead fish. No amount of opportunity (which is what a date night is, scheduled opportunity) will lead to her wanting to have sex with you.
It’s not about frequency, it’s about quality. Frequency declines after marriage, it’s just logistics (especially after kids), but spontaneity doesn’t have to. Would your wife fuck you in the car like she did when you were dating? Would she be up for fucking in the great outdoors if you were hiking together somewhere? Would she be down for anything kinky that she hasn’t done before or in ages, or is it all just ‘vanilla’ sex now? Here’s a list of things you should do from a a man’s point of view:
Make her want it
If you’ve been married for years, she probably feels pretty secure with you and whatever degree of control she has in regards to regulating the flow of sex. Make her uncomfortable. As counterintuitive as it sounds, this is the single most important advantage you can take. Begin to incrementally take the power that her intimacy has had sway over you for the past 10 years back from her. When you were unmarried even the slightest bit of anxiety that she may be put off for another, better, prospect than herself prompted that desire to fuck you better than the others.
Most important though is to do this covertly. If you go popping off about how you’re taking your balls back and she’d better shape up or you’ll be looking for a woman who is into fucking you, you’re dead in the water. You have to imply with your attitude and behavior that something’s changed in you. The best principle to remember in marriage is that you will only get what you’ve gotten if you keep doing what you’ve done before.
The power of the ‘takeaway’
In one form or another PUAs use the takeaway to shape desired behavior. This is behavioral psychology 101, reinforce the behaviors you want and punish the ones you don’t, all the time remembering that too much reward leads to satiation and cessation of the desired behavior. Don’t buy your wife flowers in order to get her to fuck you, buy them AFTER she’s performed accordingly and to your satisfaction. So many married men I know (even in their 60s ) still attempt to purchase sex from their wives by ‘allowing’ them to buy expensive things thinking it will lead to ‘appreciation sex’. In reality it will invariably lead to negotiated, obligatory and desireless ‘debt sex’. Remember, the pool boy that your wife cheats on you for didn’t buy her a goddamn thing to make her want to fuck him.
Your attention is your best tool in this regard. One thing I tell AFCs is not to give away the farm on the first date and that women are by nature attention craving. When you give away your attention without her having to seek it devalues your attention. This is a paradox in marriage because it’s understood that she ‘should’ have 100% of your attention and over the years there is zero mystery about you. When you begin to take away attention she’s grown accustomed to she will seek it. And again you must do this covertly as she will respond to it covertly. You have to be sensitive to the adjustments she makes in her attention seeking, in conversation, in posture, in habit and behavior, because she wont overtly tell you “oh please pay attention to me.” This will add to her desire to have sex with you in order to reaffirm this attention. Sex then becomes a reinforcer for her in this attention seeking which you can then use to modify her behavior – in this case being genuine desire.
Other forms of the takeaway may include certain regularities she’s grown used to over the years that she takes for granted. One of these is a regular kiss. I used this to a great effect with my own wife. I would regularly come home from work and go kiss my wife as soon as I saw her, she became accustomed to this and after a few years I came to realize that I was like a puppy dog in this regard, immediately seeking affection as soon as I got home so I began to take this away. Eventually she covertly recognized this and began to greet me at the door with a kiss. She was prompted to desire that connection by a takeaway.
Stay in shape
Nothing kills married sex faster than one or both partners letting themselves go physically. Most married Mothers who do so love to use their pregnancies as justification for their lack of motivation and obesity. Arousal is the important component to desire. If your wife kept herself in bikini model shape after she’d been overweight your desire to fuck her would undoubtedly increase. The same applies to you. Every day I’m in the gym I see countless 30 and 40 somethings straining and training as if their lives depended on it. Actually their sex-lives depend on it. For far too long we’ve been taught that “it’s what’s on the inside that counts” and how wonderful inner beauty is. Funny how hard men and women will train once they’re divorced eh? The question is, what is it about their situation that would make them take care of themselves physically that they wouldn’t while married? Before the divorce, they never had the time or motivation, but now it seems they have plenty of both.
By staying in shape – and by that I mean better shape than your spouse if possible – you send a message, not only of confidence, but a covert understanding that she’ll have some veiled competition for your attention via social proof. Thus you not only create genuine desire by physical arousal, but you simultaneously create a psychology of desire by prompting her natural competitive impulses (i.e. Dread).
Dont drive drunk
“It provoketh the desire, but taketh away the perfomance.”
Alcohol is NOT an aphrodisiac. I know that sounds odd coming from a guy who’s worked in the liquor industry for 8 years, but it’s true. Alcohol does lower inhibitions and perhaps disposes your wife to lovemaking. After years of experimentation I’ve perfected the ‘pantydropper’ – that magic formula of just enough alcohol to get her going, but not so much as to have her passed out over the toilet bowl. Still, sex is better sober and the obvious setback of whiskey-dick isn’t going to improve her already dubious desire to have sex in the first place. Understand the dynamics of her sexuality too. Strike while the iron’s hot and be sure to be up and ready to go at the peak of her menstrual cycle. I have my wife’s period down to a science now and I know that she’s physically ready to rock & roll her best by week 2. Catch her right after a good workout and after I’ve come back from lifting and that’s the benchmark for ‘real’ genuine sexual desire. You simply cannot inspire her to a standard of desire if one or both of you have a depressant in your bloodstream. If anything you want to accelerate blood flow not impede it.
Predictable is BORING. There’s nothing more predictable than sex with the same person you’ve been getting busy with for 10+ years. Oddly enough the spontaneity principle is exactly why garbage advice like ‘date night’ and “keeping it fresh” articles in Marie Claire sell magazines and don’t save marriages. All of these “freshen it up” ideas are predictable. For all of the wacky ideas you can come up with for ‘new’ sex, you’re still fucking the same old lady you married 10 years ago. You’ve got to be willing to push the envelope with her expectations of predictable sex. Suggest it when she least expects it. Tell her to flash you her boobs or some other cheap thrill when the opportunity presents itself at the beach or somewhere semi-public. Creating a condition of desire doesn’t have to directly and immediately lead to intercourse. Ask her for a hummer in the parking lot before you go to dinner one night. Even the asking is arousing. And even if she turns you down you can still use her rejection to your advantage since it implies that, perhaps at some point in time, she (or some other girlfriend you had) used to do this because she wanted to (assume the sale). When you do proposition your wife make it seem as if it just popped into your head at that very moment. Again, think covert, not overt. Overt requires planning and planning = predictable and boring. Covert implies spontaneity.
The Cardinal Rule of Relationships
In any relationship, whether romantic, personal, business or familial, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.
This may sound Machievielan, but it holds true, especially in marriage. If you are wondering who has the great degree of control in your relationship the answer is always her. Just like a good DJ knows, she must come to you. If you are the PRIZE and she recognizes this, you will inspire genuine desire. Women don’t want to marry other women (with the obvious exceptions), they want to marry men and you have to man up and be a man to do so. So many married guys I know have walked their entire married lives on eggshells because they put their wives in a position of being the gatekeeper of his own sexuality. “She’s got the vagina man, I don’t wanna piss her off” is the mantra they repeat to them and themselves. This then flows over into other aspects of their lives and places a woman (often unwantedly so) into becoming the authority in the marriage. Just as in single life, if her intimacy is used as her agency to get a desired behavior from her husband that’s the value it has. When you can prove to her that her pussy is no longer a rewarding reinforcer for her desired behavior of you, you remove this agency and reset yourself on at least a partial footing of your prior bachelorhood.
As I stated, women don’t want to marry other women, neither do they want to marry themselves. In becoming accommodating for her by allowing her sexuality to dictate their behavior, men often see identifying with a woman as the best course of getting laid in marriage. And like in single life this ends up putting a man in a sort of married ‘friends zone’, with which a woman feels obligated to have sex occasionally. You’ve got to avoid these traps by maintaining a stubborn sense of your own identity and actively protect against identifying with her.
>>women don’t want to marry other women, neither do they want to marry themselves.
And men shouldn’t want to marry any women under marriage 2,0 rules….Tactical cohabitation only guys.
i wouldn’t even recommend cohabitation.
Very true. Emphasis on the tactical depending on where/duration…. Terrible state if you want kids.
Marriage 2.0 is a loser for men.
Maybe your cupcake is different.
And maybe she’ll stay different.
Or maybe she’ll get NCU no matter how well you game her.
Do you want to gamble that you are a 100% accurate and clairvoyant FBI profiler?
Marriage 2.0 is like like playing Russian roulette with 5 rounds in the cylinder.
Rock solid, Rollo.
I have seen what it does to a man when his wife mocks him, ridicules and despises his sexuality and desire, and rejects him sexually. It can be devastating.
and supplicating is the exact wrong answer.
Last sentence: by being her . . . . what?
Truly great post. I do have some disagreement with “better shape than your spouse if possible.” From my experience with my wife, she is the most sexual when she is her self is good shape. IMO, telling a man to be more “in shape” compared with his wife is like telling women to make more money compared with her husband. Being in shape is always good, but men should not focus on being pretty. Similarly, there was an article a while back that the happiest marriages are the ones with wives thinner than the husband and husband richer than the… Read more »
IMO, telling a man to be more “in shape” compared with his wife is like telling women to make more money compared with her husband no, because how much money a woman makes is very low on the list of traits which most men find attractive in women. the man staying in shape and looking good isn’t so much a direct competition with his wife, as it is to stir up some competition anxiety in her vis a vis his desirability to other women. a woman desires a man who is desired by other women. a woman might have sex… Read more »
The point is probably just to maintain the natural male advantage. If your woman is faster, stronger, and leaner than you…something has gone terribly wrong
I agree to stronger, faster etc. Physical power can be used to arouse women like other forms of male power. I just want to point out that men don’t need to be prettier… IMO leave that to the women.
Again, I believe (from my own marriage) that the mainstream view that women need to feel pretty in order to be pretty is true. And this adds another angle to this discussion.
“to feel pretty in order to be pretty is true” ->”to feel pretty in order to be horny is true”
Two words- Leverage Hypergamy. Women want to have sex with higher and higher status men, but that doesn’t mean it has to be different men. If you are constantly raising your status and she is aware that your options are only increasing she will not only have little time or incentive to cheat on you, but she will also have plenty of incentive to fuck you. The problem is that most men see marriage as a shelter from the mating market and hypergamy when nothing could be further from the truth. When you start a family it is more important… Read more »
This is an awful excessive amount of work to do – for just ONE woman.
Better to expend that energy on many.
When married, you become dependent on one woman.
That, is a bad thing for a man: to be dependent.
I think this whole thing is spot on but I particularly like the Make Her Want It and The power of the ‘takeaway’ sections. Some of you may have inadvertently done this when you have become very busy at work or some other endeavor only to come home and have your wife tell you how much she misses you. Only to finish your project and have things go back to the way they were. When your attention is focused elsewhere for an extended period of time, we will miss you and your attention. We will also work hard to get… Read more »
Great post! Good info to keep in mind
Wish I’d read this stuff 10 years ago.
I have read every one of your posts since your site went up.
This is by far your best work. It’s like you put together all the theories and truths of inter gender relations and nailed.
Bravo man. Bravo.
Thanks for reading.
Really damned again !!! Who the hell are you, Rollo ? Wizzard or who ? You have described all phases I went through during my 10+ years of relationship. I thanked you not once, your former advices saved my balls and my sex not once in the past, I cannot completely follow your advices yet, too much social imprintings but I am not a looser thanx to your advices and i have my balls still together and working and however she feels her’s pussy power – she feels I have my 2 cents to say. Are you ‘pshrink’ of any… Read more »
Excellent work, Rollo! I’m amazed by your insightful writings and I agree with the above posts that this is a gem. I wish I had read it years ago. I’m however wondering, how well will these advices work for me in getting a satisfactory LTR sex life? Being divorced two years ago after a 10 years LTR, I am now single and doing some plate spinning. It work for me, but I miss the emotional intimacy of a LTR. And still I’m hesitant to enter a LTR because I’m afraid it will become a boring routine. So Rollo, I’d really… Read more »
Yeah, after a “nudge nudge wink wink” instigation from my wife via text, her follow up was “let me know if you need anything”. As in “let me know if you need sex from me”. I refrained. I’ll get back involved when its “I want you”.
[…] Married game – http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/relationship-game-wife-sex/ […]
The techniques suggested: –‘the take-away’ –the dread, –be ‘unpredictable’ –push sexual boundaries –be the prize (the in-charge, adventurous “Alpha” male) –avoid alcohol –stay in shape Wouldn’t these happen as a natural course of being the Alpha? These “desire levels” appear to be mainly stoked by the internalized Alpha frame- Outcome Independent, confident, in charge, competent. Rollo has taught us many times that desire can never be negotiated. However, I firmly believe it can be commanded, and in a large sense it is always commanded. I told my wife exactly what Rollo told us not to do- after I got in… Read more »
You don’t issue an Ultimatum; that’s a declaration of powerlessness:
Demonstrate, never explicate.
A woman intuitively understanding what you will do if her behaviors / conditions don’t change by observing your behaviors and mannerisms will ALWAYS be more effective than overtly explaining to her what “she needs to do or else.” When you explain things women will act out of fear or obligation, when you demonstrate things to a woman she will alter her behavior according to her own desire to do so.
This makes perfect sence! Thank you for another great and insightful post Rollo.
Damn… Sounds like you have to improve and be on top of your game for a depreciating, bitchy, risky and forever ungrateful asset. Thanks but no thanks.
I just spin plates.
I actually Enjoy being Pussywhipped by my Wife. She decided 17 years ago that she No Longer wanted Sex. I have obeyed her wishes and I have not asked her for Any Sex At All in 17 years. I am not allowed in Her Bedroom unless I Knock First so I have Not seen her Naked in 17 years. I sleep in a Separate Bed in a Separate Room now. My sexual frustration has caused me to be Completely Submissive to her every wishes and demands. I Love Her So Much I am always Kissing her Hand and telling her… Read more »
Excellent list of advice. Thanks.
IMO a good social life and hobbies/ passions is also great to keep a tension and keep up desire. But this comes maybe under the “takeaway” as you take away available time from couple activities and make yourself less available? Anyway, its nice to have things to be passioned about and make yourself more desirable to spend time with and less likely to get mad and frustrated by rejection.
Respect to Rollo and the married guys but at 41 (never married/no kids) and with a decent notch count for a former slacker, I see the whole marriage project as all risk and effort on the man’s part while the woman can hit “eject” at any time. I’m watching friends and family grind it out and their attempts to sell me on the idea of LTR (more than 2 yrs) and marriage just feels forced and phony. They’re trying to convince themselves, not me.
Great post! I know this is an old thread,but hopefully I can get an answer to a couple questions I had on this. Is it safe to assume that in withdrawing attention you men having sex with her also. Is this an indefinite period of time? Also is there a difference in this as you get into your 60’s? I’m 62, wife is 64. I’m far and away in better physical shape than she is. Frequency of meaningful sex is once a week. Am I crazy to think it could be more if I do things properly?
This is an old post and your comment will get buried under the comments on the new post.
Post your comment under “Fields Report” (also explaining the context that it is in relation to this post) and you will surely get an answer.
Yeah man post up in Field Reports. All this stuff works.