To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.
I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.
I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.
I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.
Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?
Her: Why are we talking about this?
Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?
Her: are you taking drugs?
Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.
She starts crying.
Me: Do you have anything to say?
She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.
Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.
She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut
Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.
She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.
Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.
Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.
She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.
Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.
She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.
Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.
She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you
Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.
She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.
Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.
I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.
I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.
As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.
I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.
Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”
I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.
I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.
Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.
There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.
As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.
There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.
Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.
The Best of Her
The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.
Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.
Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.
Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.
One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.
I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.
The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.
I Want You to Want Me
Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.
Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.
[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change
What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.
He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.
December 4th, 2013 at 4:48 pm
“if you want a landing strip,
you better get ripped”
LMFAO!
December 4th, 2013 at 5:11 pm
I’m curious, LT. I don’t think you’ve ever even touched the real point of this post by Rollo. Since we seem to be at a point of agreement with each other… What are your thoughts on the possibility of negotiated desire? What are your thoughts on saving your best commitment-assets for those you commit to?
December 4th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
” And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.”
Please elaborate more on this in explicit detail.
December 4th, 2013 at 5:17 pm
Great post. The comment count alone up to this point reveals how much this issue hits a male nerve.
But in regards to some commenters here recommending this guy game his wife to help turn things around… I don’t expect it works quite like that–at least not in this extreme a case.
To be clear, I’m a big fan of married game. At the very least, game is about self-improvement regardless of outcome. Moreover, and in an otherwise healthy relationship, it can revive sexual attraction. But in this story here, I suspect there’s a whole lot more going on. There are psychologically “structural” issues, unresolved conflicts in this wife’s head, etc. which are going to prevent her from truly bonding and giving herself to her husband regardless of how much game the guy now spits.
Yea, I recognize the wife’s (and nearly all women’s) hypergamic urges. Do women downplay their sexual pasts? Hide their partner count? Engage in behavior their husbands aren’t comfortable admitting? Absolutely. But it’s not a lack of married game that makes a women engage in a six-person orgy, go bisexual in that orgy, get double-teamed up the ass, yell “I’m a filthy whore,” videotape the whole event for posterity, and then hang onto the darn videotape 7 years into a committed(?) relationship. …And then, once married, deny anything but missionary with her husband, hide any sense of adventure, in her sexuality? That’s some pretty extreme and oscillating sexual behavior. It isn’t all that common. (Come on. At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes). And then, such extreme 180-degree sexual repression after-the-fact isn’t psychologically healthy either. I don’t think game will win-out on this one. It won’t magically turn this wife into now giving this guy the best of herself. The causes that drove her extremes in the first place need to get resolved.
December 4th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
@sunshinemary said: Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?
You’ve completely missed the point.
A man in her past got her BEST.
Her husband got her GOOD ENOUGH.
The problem isn’t that she has been with other men. Her actions have made it clear that (in her eyes) her husband is INFERIOR to those other men.
Ego wise, this is a castrating event for the husband. He realizes now that for the past 7 years, she didn’t think he was good enough for her best; that he didn’t deserve her best.
This is far worse than finding out your wife had an ultra high N count–far, far, far worse.
December 4th, 2013 at 5:44 pm
Hmm. Well that’s complicated to answer Jeremy. I’ve definitely saved the best for the man I’ve “committed” to (I use the term loosely because we aren’t in agreement on it yet), but that’s not to say that I wasn’t adventurous with men prior to him. I just didn’t feel like I WANTED to be fully liberated with any of my priors, because… they didn’t really deserve it.
I used to think that it was because I was an inhibited person, but after much self-awareness, I now understand that it had everything to do with trust. I can honestly state now, with certainty, that my reluctance was a fully instinctive, biological response to not feeling like I could trust the men I was with. And I only know that now because I know what its like to be really uninhibited with someone I care about, respect, and trust.
By the way, trust means so much more than just cheating.
I think if you get right down to it, at the core of every woman’s psyche, you’ll find the same issue. I’d say its probably easier for a woman to be a slut with a total random than with her spouse, because we are actually much less vulnerable with a random. Vulnerability is genuinely terrifying (and simultaneously exhilarating) to women. You may believe we are comfortable with it, but that would be completely false.
Anyway – negotiated desire – that is what I felt like I was doing before. It is not genuine and everyone knows it so I can’t see how anyone could find it enjoyable. Negotiated desire is gross. I don’t think I’ll ever do it again, if I can avoid it at all. I can’t ever see a situation arising in my life where I would HAVE to negotiate on that.
December 4th, 2013 at 5:48 pm
To add on to 8to12’s excellent comment…
From the opposite perspective, ladies, try to imagine this. Try to imagine you married a seemingly not-so-rich man, committed everything to him, gave him sex whenever he wanted, gave him meals whenever he needed food, etc…etc, all because you loved him and he convinced you that he loved you and wanted to give you all he had.
You dealt with his lack of high income because you believed in him and believed he could start earning significant amounts of money if he kept working hard. Now imagine that 7 years into the marriage, you find his bank statements and discover he has been diverting significant portions of his much-higher-than-you-thought income to his own projects, or gambling it away, or even giving it to another woman. From your perspective, wouldn’t that feel like fraud? Wouldn’t it feel like he had saved his best for someone/something other than you? Remember, you’ve sacrificed for him, but instead of making all of his hard work available to you, he made it available to only himself, or to other people, while letting you believe he was giving you everything he could.
December 4th, 2013 at 5:52 pm
Any encounter from a ONS to a 50 yr plus marriage has the one element in common.It has to have mutuality and beneficial.The only unconditional love that exits is from parent to child.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:07 pm
This post and its comments have inspired me quite a bit today, because cuckolding is now a de facto assumption. She’s either gonna slut herself before you marry her, or after you marry her….so read 15 years to Life: http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/15-years-to-life/
December 4th, 2013 at 6:17 pm
Yes totally Jeremy, it is a deception of the same magnitude. But I hope I’m not the only woman to say that if the situation were reversed, and my husband wouldn’t give me sexual pleasure but I found out he had this crazy sexual background that he was withholding from me, I’d be just as pissed as I imagine he would (and should!) be if I were withholding from him that I had received an inheritance from my wealthy grandparents. Because marriage is about sharing, and if you don’t trust the person you’re with, how can you feel good about sharing with them?
Anyway, if she had come clean before he found out about her past by this “tape” that miraculously appeared, if she had confessed and told him about her sordid history, this would have been a fantastic opportunity for them to really be honest with each other, and probably for him to start getting the kind of play he wanted from the start. It could have really worked out to both of their advantages, and they could have salvaged the relationship.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:21 pm
@RPSMF, beat you to it a long time ago:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/23/schedules-of-mating/
December 4th, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Similar topics, different approaches.
Good learnin’ fer all, ah say. I focused moreso on bargaining power years vs. lifetime alimony.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:27 pm
I see that RPSMF.
From Schedules of Mating:
December 4th, 2013 at 6:32 pm
“At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes”
You’d be surprised. This ain’t the 50s with a scandalous kiss snuck between shy virgins at the school sock hop anymore.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:34 pm
After seeing all this worthless back and forth with LT I came to realize it doesnt matter. I dont care if a woman, or women in general, can sympathize or not with this guys feelings. Its an interest exercise but pushing it is pointless. This is how men feel and its not going to change. The reasons and whys men feel this way are out there to explore, if any woman wants to understand these things, but really, it doesnt matter.
Bottom line, if the genders were reversed and the story would be told from the perspective of a woman, she’ll get all the support and blaming the man for the jerk he is. If its not he withholding sex, make it about money, commitment, time, whatever. Women complain – favorite sport – and divorce for much lighter things, from the toothbrush to not getting enough love letter to you name it. This whole thing is permeated by the wall of not wanting to deal with men wants, desires, expectation, psychology, and the need to silence them (man up) to make room for even more female whining about their own desires, wants, and psychology.
But fuck it. End of pointless trying to get a woman “understand” which is more like dialectical raping a snake of smoke and mirrors.
This is how men feel, it doesnt need any woman or political faction to be validated. Instead use that information for your own benefit or ignore it for your own detriment.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:36 pm
I’m not trying to create a justification for how men feel Yohami, that would be pointless.
I’m trying to generate understanding via anecdote.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Here’s my question/thought:
If you’re not first to the Motherland when she’s 15 or so, there’s really no way to avoid cuckolding, is there?
December 4th, 2013 at 6:40 pm
Treebeard; those opposed to women’s reproductive freedom are conservative, christian, anti-marxist, and the most ardent opponents of any sort of communal responsibility. These beliefs are all directly tied together, around the construct of property rights, and all of them stem from the right of paternity and patrilineage.
Well no, do what you please. Coool. But don’t expect to do it on my coin. I worked dam hard for it.
“Communal responsibility”? What’s that when it’s at home? Sounds like “collective punishment” to me.
A woman’s prized virginity is really about men’s need for paternity, and paternity is a property right. As you said yourself, it is the “greatest gift you can give a man,” which is a male-established, moral assumption, founded not in natural law but in the need to have the right of parent-ownership. Paternity (and maternity too, if you really want to know what I think) is a purely artificial construct created for the legal purpose of property transfer.
WTF? Bang on the money! Have you been drinking? That’s right. ” the legal purpose of property transfer”, as exclusively used by feminists, transferring a man’s (In fact all sorts of utterly random and not necessarily related mens’) labor-price and lives into the hands of more than a few select women and their heterogenous spawn, as a right. By coercion.
Well, wouldn’t you be somewhat aggrieved if you were taxed almost into destitution for the purpose of feeding the children of your avowed enemies? Because that’s what we have over here. They want to behead me and mine for being infidels and kuffirs, even offduty soldiers in the street get chopped. And the rest of the bludgers want us gone, for various bogus reasons connected to some mythical restitution for thousands if not millions of years of brutal subjection, or something. From the bottom of our coalmine.
But most of all they want my money, so they don’t have to work, or house themselves and their multiple broodmares. And the local feminists are just fine with that. Commoooonity, innit.
How very dare I say “you can piss right off with that. Whoever you are. Have we met?”.
How you can claim, with a straight face, not to be some sort of communist is quite breathtaking in its audacity.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:42 pm
@ YaReally
Agreed. I think many guys would be truly surprised what is possible (or even common), if they just let go of limiting beliefs, remained non-judgmental, and actively tried to make things happen. The problem is that many guys are so constrained with social brainwashing and individual hang-ups that they don’t push the limits and go for what they really want.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:43 pm
The direct female correlation to what this man experienced would be if he secretly had a hidden family with many children (with hidden memorabilia), gave his fortune to them before he remarried as a pauper, had a secret vasectomy (even though his wife was desperate for children) and downgraded his job and only worked to maintain a subsistence level despite previously being a high flying banker.
How many women would be happy with that?
December 4th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Jeremy, for an advocate, and most girls are advocates, “understanding” means accepting. Pushing and advocate so they “understand” means, for them, forcing them to accept. Which is why this one in particular doesnt want to give in. The reality of this subject goes against her own interests, and she just wishes the whole thing was confusing, so nobody would really “understand” it, thus, it would be pushed aside, and her own ideology could cover that space.
The subject of this post doesnt need a thousand pages or repeating the premises and circling around the obvious. She doesnt want to “understand” so be it.
Send her to HUS instead.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Oh jesus… Tam, wtf. You went off the political rails again.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Yohami:
Nailed it. As a further observation, it’s a neverending source of fascination to me how many women will simply gloss over men’s feelings, wants, needs and desires. It’s as if men’s participation in a relationship, from a ONS to a 50 year marriage, is completely unimportant. What men want, need and desire from a relationship is always an afterthought, a secondary or tertiary concern.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:49 pm
But fuck it. End of pointless trying to get a woman “understand” which is more like dialectical raping a snake of smoke and mirrors.
This is how men feel, it doesnt need any woman or political faction to be validated. Instead use that information for your own benefit or ignore it for your own detriment.
Amen.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:50 pm
OK then, sparky, explain the concept of ” communal responsibility” to me. Real slow like.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:51 pm
There was a time I would’ve agreed, but with the rise of social media and instant communication I’ve come to realize women are far more sexual and attention seeking than any guy previously was allowed to believe.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:52 pm
Just curious Deti – do you ever really ask for what you want? Or is it just assumed she’ll know.
I ask in all seriousness, because I’ve found with the men I’ve dated in the past (prior to this one anyway), and women I associate tell me the same, they almost never talk about their needs. And as a matter of interest, I’ve had a surprising number of male friends and colleagues admit as much.
I’m sure there are all sorts of messed up reasons for that too, social conditioning and feminine imperative and whatever else, but as the saying goes, “Silence is consent.”
December 4th, 2013 at 6:53 pm
@YOHAMI
If that is so, and I don’t like to sell people short, then LT falls short of the mark of an educated mind.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:56 pm
@livingtree2013
Now if only that worked in criminal cases…
December 4th, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Jeremy, advocating vs truth seeking, its really a matter of preference. There are lot of well educated and sharp advocates, and LT is one of the most articulated women I’ve encountered around lately. She has the brain power to see the point, she just doesnt want the point to be made, which is a completely different thing.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:01 pm
Male Wastes of Time:
1) Arguing with a woman
2) Thinking you’ll get a woman to see or care about a man’s perspective on anything
3) Listening to a woman talk about “what relationships are really like”
4) Forgetting solipsism: “It’s not true for me, therefore it can’t be true at all.”
5) Thinking that she’ll ever say anything that doesn’t amount to, “No, no, see, it’s different when I do it. I’m not like those girls.”
December 4th, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Livingtree,
Perhaps the reason men don’t talk about it, is the same your woman friends assume silence is consent: you don’t really care.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:03 pm
The problem is that many guys are so constrained with social brainwashing and individual hang-ups that they don’t push the limitsand go for what they really want.
Dr. Jeremy,
What you see though from some is an attempt to conflate *pushing the limits” with actual sexual assault/rape. I can only think this is done in an intentional attempt to blur the lines and make anything else besides “enthusiastic consent” tantamount to rape. My fellow JFG blogger Han Solo might have some thoughts on this. I covered this in a couple posts
http://www.justfourguys.com/sexual-escalation-whats-a-guy-supposed-to-do/
http://www.justfourguys.com/sexual-escalation-addendum/
I may do a third post at some point.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:05 pm
I want to let this rest, mostly because if I continue this conversation with Yohami it will go way off topic.
The basic response I would have is this:
Rollo believes in an open-comment policy, because people will hang themselves.
No one need supply the rope, but the audience needs to exist. Further, when latent challenges to the intellect are experienced, the mind is poked into improving. In short, I believe the mind can be prodded into thinking, and if my prods seem sharp and painful, then I’ve done my job.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:07 pm
To amplify Yohami’s point, LT probably understands that men are repulsed by the woman’s misrepresentation and fraud. She was clearly holding out on her husband. LT doesn’t want to accept this. She chooses not to distinguish between “is” and “ought”. Men are all around her telling her “it is this way”. But LT won’t accept this. She continues to pound away, saying “but it SHOULDN’T be this way!” As Yohami says, LT is advocating for an ideological position; not trying to find out the truth and accept it for what it is.
LT does not want to accept it. She wants men to change, to deny human nature, to fit into her ideology, because she so badly wants and needs her worldview to be true.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:18 pm
Jeremy, kudos to you for maintaining a sharp and honest discussion here for all that matters. You’re not dealing with an equal.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:30 pm
well I thank you Jeremy for sparing me the harshness of rash judgement that your peers are inclined to mete out. I am more than capable of understanding a thought without accepting it. I am incapable, however, of accepting a thought without understanding it.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:30 pm
@ livingtree2013
“We grow up learning, by so many means, that women who are sexually active are undesirable to men as long-term mates. What we see is proof, everywhere, that women who are comfortable with their sexuality are… alone. So if women want to find said mate, we better not display sexual desire, especially not any wild stuff. So this is why they hide it.”
Hiding her sexual desires would be understandable, but if this guy expressed his desire for raunchy sex and she repeatedly declined, then the fear of slut shaming is no longer a legitimate excuse, because by propositioning her, he gave her the green light.
“I also don’t feel too bad for guy when he chooses to take on HER insecurities about sex as a statement of HIS desirability…find a woman who is comfortable with her sexuality, or make her believe you want one who is.”
Are you saying that the reason she declined raunchy sex with her husband was because she was insecure and he didn’t make her feel comfortable? If so, that’s a non sequitur. After all, a girl who’s comfortable having raunchy sex with five guys she barely knows, should be comfortable having raunchy sex with her husband. Do you really think that those random guys made an effort to make her feel comfortable???
December 4th, 2013 at 7:31 pm
Yes, because appealing to women’s reason is so productive, not to mention a great turn on for her:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/07/appeals-to-reason/
Women don’t want a man to explain anything, they want them to Just Get It:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/
Learn this now, women think they want the truth, but they never want full disclosure.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:32 pm
If only Jeremy! So many instances where that would be nice. (I’m sure I know already which cases you refer to).
December 4th, 2013 at 7:32 pm
Tam, really, communal responsibility is something you need explained to you?
December 4th, 2013 at 7:41 pm
Um, what the fuck are you talking about Deti? Would you please do me the kindness of picking out in my comments where I have done anything that you just said. Specifics, please.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Deti, if you’re referring to my views on marriage, I don’t doubt at all “how it is”. I’m very aware of “how it is”. I just don’t want any part of it. I think I have the freedom to make that decision for myself. And I’m sure I’ll get what I deserve, which may well be nothing. I’m totally fine with that.
As are you free to make your own choices. I’m not here to judge. If you want to marry for a trade-exchange, and you want a woman to sell you access to her body in exchange for free room and board, have at it… and I guess you’ll get what you deserve, which may well be a lifetime of anguish. I hope not, but that’s just “how it is”.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:20 pm
“Women think they want the truth, but they never want full disclosure.”
So? Why let that stop you? Who the hell wants full disclosure anyway? NO-one wants it, it sucks hearing the truth, but how can you have a real relationship when you are suppressing the truth?? As Gloria Steinem said:
“The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.”
Anyway, I’m glad you’re trying to help men to get over that, but seriously, your words really convey how habituated you are to letting your idealization of someone else’s importance dictate the terms of your life – and you’re right, women really don’t respect that.
So, disclose! Let the chips fall where they may! Consequences be damned. If respect is what you want, this is what getting it looks like. Tell. The. Truth.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:20 pm
@Shaman
Sorry I missed that nugget Shaman. It appears I am in the wrong industry.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:40 pm
@YOHAMI
“After seeing all this worthless back and forth with LT I came to realize it doesnt matter. I dont care if a woman, or women in general, can sympathize or not with this guys feelings. Its an interest exercise but pushing it is pointless. This is how men feel and its not going to change. The reasons and whys men feel this way are out there to explore, if any woman wants to understand these things, but really, it doesnt matter.”
You’re right, the back and forth doesn’t matter. I’m glad Rollo has an open comment area, and he has used comments as examples of “women not getting it” very well. But really, just stop engaging them. That won’t make them stop blabbering, but it will improve the quality of the conversation.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:50 pm
I have thought (and prayed) long and hard over this scenario, putting myself in his shoes. I have tried to envision forgiveness (that would lead to a dead marriage at best, or divorce on her terms, as she finds a less wary schlub). I have tried to envision putting the woman out for a time until she is repentant, as described in Ezekiel, but there is no desert or gnashing darkness in the era of SNAP and “modern” domestic disturbance laws. There is almost no way to MAP against internal revulsion of a woman. The idea of “open marriage” would destroy things almost as fast as a punch in the nose. Then again, I don”t see the Mafia, KGB, Triads, or Yakuza getting cuckolded…at all. As one who tries to faithfully do God’s Will, it appears that the mere air of threat would accomplish more than any entreaty to the heart, mind, or soul. Excitement, fear, arousal, and obedience, all from displaying a willingness to ignore the law. But how would a self-professed Christian obtain authority over this situation when the other party does really recognize said authority?
December 4th, 2013 at 8:50 pm
LT: the gift that keeps on giving.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:59 pm
@Christian_Caveman
Curious what you are thinking…
First of all – Divorce is a sin, IF you have sex outside of marriage, that is the sin
If you Divorce, and the reason for that divorce was not her adultery, and it something that YOU want because you want another woman OR you divorce and then remarry – that is a sin, because you are in actuality still married “in God’s eyes” to the first wife.
And all this is based upon the belief of what Paul wrote – Jesus was fairly silent about this whole area. There was a saying in the church I grew up in — “speak where the bible speaks, be silent where the bible is silent” — too bad most of the speaking in the new testament came from people other than Jesus – would have been great to have more from him directly.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
LIVE YOUR DREAM, NOT SOMEONE ELSE’S DREAM. MOVE FORWARD WITH ONLY YOUR FOCUS.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
Sorry, typo….
Meant to say “Divorce is NOT a sin”
December 4th, 2013 at 9:07 pm
If there’s anything I would hope women get from reading this thread and comments, it’s this: Your N matters. Telling the truth about your N matters. We want your best. A husband is entitled to your best. If you’re not willing to give your best, then you shouldn’t marry. Men have feelings, wants, needs and desires; and they are important. If you don’t care about those feelings, wants, needs and desires, you should not marry.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:09 pm
As one who tries to faithfully do God’s Will, it appears that the mere air of threat would accomplish more than any entreaty to the heart, mind, or soul. Excitement, fear, arousal, and obedience, all from displaying a willingness to ignore the law. But how would a self-professed Christian obtain authority over this situation when the other party does really recognize said authority?
These are your problems:
1) Thinking that there’s a difference between Christian women and non-Christian women.
2) Thinking that self-professed Christian women are actually interested in what Jesus or the Bible have to say.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:13 pm
Look what I found, a gathering of independent women, rationally exercising their autonomy from the patriarchy:
Oh, I get it, these men must’ve told these women what their innermost needs were.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:28 pm
“After all, a girl who’s comfortable having raunchy sex with five guys she barely knows, should be comfortable having raunchy sex with her husband”
Not if it causes her to lose the upper hand in the power dynamic of the relationship…
December 4th, 2013 at 9:31 pm
@ Morpheus,
There are many attempts at social engineering to redistribute power and influence for various purposes. The problem with these attempts, however, is that they often run up against biological reality and sex differences. For example:
Given that, it may be difficult-to-impossible to get pro-active enthusiasm from a woman who is only re-actively aroused and desirous. How then, beyond theory and in practice, are we ever supposed to get to such enthusiasm, without the man initiating and escalating to create it? Certainly, there should be respect for women’s preferences and limits to initiation (as with the current “no” standard). But, unless men are “allowed” to initiate when women are only “sexually neutral”…it appears that both men and women may go to bed dissatisfied.
The whole article I got the quote from can be found here:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200907/desire-in-women-does-it-lead-sex-or-result-it
December 4th, 2013 at 9:35 pm
Erotica author says that she never loved her husband like she does now, after he started tying her up and beating her:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/04/bdsm-marriage_n_4387166.html?ref=topbar
December 4th, 2013 at 9:43 pm
“As Yohami says, LT is advocating for an ideological position; not trying to find out the truth and accept it for what it is. ”
“If there’s anything I would hope women get from reading this thread and comments, it’s this: Your N matters. Telling the truth about your N matters. We want your best. A husband is entitled to your best. If you’re not willing to give your best, then you shouldn’t marry. Men have feelings, wants, needs and desires; and they are important. If you don’t care about those feelings, wants, needs and desires, you should not marry.”
That’s pretty ideological though yourself Deti. Women are not going to be honest about their sexual past and if they marry later in life they will almost always be marrying down than their previous lovers. They aren’t going to not marry simply because they aren’t able to give their best. It is what it is. If you marry a woman that is over a certain age accept the consequences and if you are in this position it’s because you aren’t valuable enough to have other options.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:09 pm
“Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me…”
Somehow I doubt that. Your wife could not trust you to truly know her for fear of rejection. You couldn’t handle the truth (Victoria’s secret). Now that you know, things could be different. It was wrong to lie, and your ego has sustained a serious blow. I don’t want to downplay your anguish or minimize what she did. But, as time passes and things cool down, I advise you to consider her conduct as a wife and mother over the years, her sincerity in being willing to do anything to keep you, and her general integrity of character. Consider her motivation for the lie: was it to manipulate you, or was it to protect you? Discuss with the men who have revived their marriages the steps you would need to take to turn this around and determine whether you believe it is worth it. Finally, ask the toughest question of all: are you willing to know the truth, face it squarely, and ask what changes you may need to make to be a part of the solution? I sincerely wish you, your wife, and daughter the best of luck.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:16 pm
@Kate
Fundamental impasse. You are justifying insulting the intelligence of your man. You are justifying lying to someone you’ve committed yourself to in order to preserve a situation favorable to you. If a woman can’t trust me with some knowledge about her, she’s going to be NEXT’d.
Don’t insult the intelligence of your mate.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:25 pm
@livingtree2013
If you read the original thread, you will see that he didn’t take issue with her past. He would certainly be within his rights in assigning whatever weight to her past, but didn’t assign any so really he is doing everything that a modern progressive man is supposed to be doing. This makes it an ideal demonstration of the not very well publicized but very real limits of what betas can expect when they do everything “right” (scarequotes). You can check all the provider boxes, you can even check check all the right ideological boxes in relation to feminism, sexual attitudes, etc and it all boils down to negotiated desire. I suppose you would argue that sexual repression is just “in the air” as part of our culture, but this seems pretty dubious. She had 7 years to open up to her husband, to things that she knew that he wanted. And it wouldn’t have required her to reveal her past at all. 7 years!
December 4th, 2013 at 10:28 pm
“A husband is entitled to your best. If you’re not willing to give your best, then you shouldn’t marry. Men have feelings, wants, needs and desires; and they are important. If you don’t care about those feelings, wants, needs and desires, you should not marry.”
That is asking a lot of the average (or below average) woman. Women are supposed to turn down advantageous marriages to men who want to be with them instead of being honorably single? When funny, educated men that you just aren’t attracted to want to buy you houses, its a moral dilemma. It takes a lot of fortitude to say no. I don’t think I’m exaggerating to say most women wouldn’t be able to resist. If some provider type came along, they wouldn’t be above duping him (or themselves) to make life easier.
As Ferrett wisely says, age is an important consideration here. We need to know the ages of this couple.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:36 pm
Rollo, aint Argentina lovely.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Kate :
If she didn’t trust him, she shouldn’t have married him.
And she is the one who needs to change, not him.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:00 pm
@Morpheus and Dr. Jeremy
When extreme rules or laws about escalation, and the need for enthusiastic written consent, are put in place, it effectively makes the playing field that much harder for the average and lower guys to escalate. Meanwhile the Tom Brady alphas can get away with boob grabs from grateful and eager recipients.
This is just one more way to protect hypergamous women from the unwanted advances of non-top males, the kind they don’t get enthusiastic about.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:01 pm
Haha Kate. At least you’re honest. I also find it disgusting that you’re here justifying what this woman did.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:03 pm
Here’s the Tom Brady SNL skit:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f76_1323277426
December 4th, 2013 at 11:12 pm
“When funny, educated men that you just aren’t attracted to want to buy you houses, its a moral dilemma. It takes a lot of fortitude to say no.”
Bullshit. It’s not a moral dilemma. The only moral choice is to decline.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised — a couple of women show up to defend and justify the woman’s conduct. I should have known this would happen.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:16 pm
Did you just skip over the part about her keeping this video for at least 7 years or did your solipsism force that bit of uncomfortable info out of your head before it registered?
Mark, Mark, Mark, what’re you fucking doing to yourself brother?
December 4th, 2013 at 11:22 pm
Her “conduct as a wife and mother over the years” and her “general integrity of character” includes lying, frauding her way into the marriage, continuing the fraud during the course of the marriage, about a matter integral to whether a true marriage even exists. Compounding this is the fact that she held out on him sexually.
So, yes, he most definitely should consider her “conduct as a wife” and her “general integrity of character”.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:28 pm
Mark, Mark, Mark, what’re you fucking doing to yourself brother?
Oh this is that Kate. I see.
Did you just skip over the part about her keeping this video for at least 7 years or did your solipsism force that bit of uncomfortable info out of your head before it registered?
Bingo.
The fact that it happened.
The fact that she kept it from him.
The fact that she enjoyed it.
The fact that she is not attracted to him.
The fact that she takes full benefits as a wife, but doesn’t give him full benefits in return.
The fact that there is no possible denial that any future sex between them will be duty sex, and that’s the best case scenario.
This is her conduct as a wife and mother.
This is her level of sincerity.
This is her integrity of character.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:47 pm
Ok, I’ll “bring it on” @livingtree2013. Just like me, this guy deserves everything he’s got coming. We believed the lie that “this one is special” and we won’t be the 50% that get divorced (and the 50% that don’t, how many are even remotely happy with their marriage?). I will probably lose $800,000 in my divorce to my frigid wife who earned almost nothing and we have no children. Any man who marries a WESTERN woman in this current environment has to know that the cards and odds are stacked against them dramatically. Enter the church. You are an immoral man if you don’t man up and marry those sluts!, which is contrary to anything the bible says.
So getting to your arguments: Don’t marry screwed up women. 20% of western women are the best marriage potential in the world. The other 80% know exactly how to pretend to be the 20% because they have to fool idiot beta providers to fund their unearned cash and prizes lifestyle and raise their alpha fathered bastards.
Women are screwed up about being judged for being sluts? Like most western betas, I was conditioned to let the past lie. My ex was giving me the same as any previous so I had no problem with taking on a long term commitment with her. The OP’s problem was his wife was intentionally hiding her past to prevent him from knowing he wasn’t getting her best (in other words, he was nothing more than an emotional tampon and financial ATM).
Slut being used as a derogatory term is suddenly an excuse for OPs shitty wife behaving the way she did? This is just another typical trait of an inferior western female who is too stupid to reconcile the truth of her own sexuality! This is solipsism pure and simple!
Western civilization is in the process of committing suicide, and the screwed up dynamics between men and women are just one example. In my international experience as a cargo pilot, when western men meet non-western women, the man is flabbergasted at how wonderful relationships can be! She’s just happy that he’s a man; no shit tests, no drama and no demands. A western woman pretends to be the 20%, gets married and then suddenly the feminist indoctrinations kicks in. To in any way support or bring her man up, is somehow to bring herself down as a woman. So she demeans him and shit tests him into oblivion and the marriage is destroyed while the hapless beta wonders what he ever did wrong.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:47 pm
@ HanSolo
Actually, taken to the extreme it disempowers all men from making any advances, even the top ones. It would make all men have to wait to be enthusiastically chosen, or else face heavy consequences for being “wrong”.
There is also another factor to consider…it would potentially change the power dynamic among women too. Currently, the attractive women have more choice and control, because more men approach and escalate with them. But, if men are not allowed to approach and escalate…the attractive women no longer get a larger pick of men. Instead, the “assertive” women, who would escalate on the passive men, would have the greater influence and choice.
That might be a radical change in power among women – especially if the “assertive” women who would proactively escalate on a passive, disempowered “Tom Brady” were different SMV from the “attractive” women who would motivate his own freely-chosen escalation…
December 5th, 2013 at 12:10 am
@Dr. Jeremy
Yes, taken to the extreme, it would disempower top men as well, though they would still be approached much more than women, as we saw in the OkCupid experiment highlighted at heartiste.
But the key point is that it isn’t taken to the extreme and, as currently practiced, it does act as I described and as seen in the SNL clip: less attractive men will bear the brunt of any enforcement of the “enthusiastic consent” for approaching or escalating because they aren’t wanted by hypergamous women and the top men will be welcomed and, at heart, the women will be more afraid of losing them than a little too much escalation from such men.
It sets up a partial societal shit test for men. Are you bold enough and brave enough to escalate in spite of the looming threat of being acused? By doing so, they at least put themselves into the category of the brave. However, there is the large factor of intrinsic attractiveness that goes into play as well, that often can’t be overcome by showing one’s bravery. Notice how both men were “brave” and approached the women in the SNL skit but only the more attractive man’s bravery was rewarded.
But, yeah, if men completely stopped approaching women then only the “brave” or forward women would get any men and due to hypergamy-inspired bravery usually only working on women to approach men that are more attractive (exceptions exist), the most attractive women could be left out.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:11 am
Is Victoria’s secret the fact that she’s a filthy whore, or an opportunistic manipulator?
December 5th, 2013 at 12:14 am
@ deti
I personally agree and try to conduct my own behavior accordingly. However, I also recognize that others I interact with may not be choosing to follow the same rules of conduct that I do. Also, there are no longer the strong, universal, social, religious, and moral sources to enforce that everyone follows those rules and does what is truly moral, just, and fair.
So, we can talk about ways to possibly re-instill such universal morality. We can even discuss how to possibly find, test, and pick partners who still manage to hold such values. But, for me at least, assuming that people are currently motivated to play by those rules – without me personally ensuring it – is simply setting up for frustration and failure.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:42 am
@Dr. Jeremy
“Actually, taken to the extreme it disempowers all men from making any advances, even the top ones. It would make all men have to wait to be enthusiastically chosen, or else face heavy consequences for being “wrong”.”
No, because women instinctively know what alphas know: that rules don’t apply to alphas. Alphas will continue to break the rules because of their sense of entitlement that they EXPECT to be allowed to break the rules, and breaking those rules will help women determine which men are alphas, and attract them. Women know that even if there was some legal law against looking at a woman, they would only enforce it with betas…with alphas they would say “oh no, it’s okay this time because–” The alphas simply wouldn’t fear the heavy consequences because they know they’re high-value.
In an ideal world for women, they hold all the power and all the choice and are allowed to make exceptions for whoever they want for whatever reasons they want. Check out the Jezebel article on that “men & women think differently” brain-scan thing. The Jezzie takeaway from that was “women are leaders who can change the world and should be in high-up positions, and men are grunts who are only good for doing menial tasks” instead of “women yap, men get shit done” lol In the sexual marketplace, women want complete control over which men approach them and which men go back to their cave.
That’s why they hate game. Because PUAs figured out how to mimic those exceptions close enough that women can’t tell the difference, and over time “fake it till you make it” kicks in and guys who should’ve been weeded out of the sexual marketplace end up dominating it. So when a woman thinks of a learned alpha like a PUA, she doesn’t think “cool natural fun sexual high-value guy”, she looks at the neckbearded virgin loser beside her and thinks “fuck, I could end up attracted to THAT guy…I have to tell him to quit being a jerk and ignore that game stuff and tell him PUA doesn’t work and they’re all virgins and he should just be himself…’cause good god, what if he bettered himself and then I fucked him??”
December 5th, 2013 at 1:05 am
YaReally
Exactly, they fear fucking the male equivalent of a fatty. lol
December 5th, 2013 at 1:45 am
@ HanSolo & YaReally
To be more precise Han…they do it to avoid mating with their own male SMV equivalent. Changing the power structure allows more of them to mate-up (i.e. hypergamy). Of course, the lower SMV the woman, the more she benefits. The high SMV women, however, who used to be able to secure commitment from a high SMV man – now only wait in line for their quick turn too. So, holding all of the power and choice makes all women more-or-less equal…giving them all a turn with the best…which ends up benefiting the low, while costing the high.
Of course, the Alpha male gets fleeced on the deal too. Although he may glut himself – it still is not under his power, choice, or control. It is at the whim of the women in power to uni-laterally choose. Given the fate of being used for reproduction versus resources, it is probably better to be on the bed. But, personally, I rather try to find ways to maintain my freedom, power, and choice – rather than simply being led to pick the best of two subservient options (and fail to realize I’m not really “winning” with either of them).
December 5th, 2013 at 2:10 am
@Dr. J.
Yeah, I agree that many women these days are avoiding men of equal value. It’s interesting how in online dating, most of the time a woman messages a man first, it’s some guy that’s 1-3 points out of her league, and they think–or hope–that they have a chance beyond a mere pump and dump.
As men, though, I don’t think we realize what it must be like in the wild west mating of today, getting hit on by guys that are 1 or 2 points higher. Imagine if women 1 or 2 or even 3 points higher were hitting on you.
Back in the days of get married young and stay married, women probably didn’t have the panoply of fine cock pursuing them they do now.
And yes, the lower SMV women benefit more but that’s more because the higher SMV aren’t offering themselves up for casual sex quite as easily. Because if they were, they could steal away market share from their frumpier and homelier sisters quite easily.
As to empowerment, I’ve often argued that run of the mill alphas have less societal power than their percentile-equivalent females (alpha females, you could call them). But it’s the few apex alphas that really rule the roost that love things as they are now. We often (rightfully) criticize feminism for amplifying the demise of the beta male beyond what great wealth and technology have done to give women independence. But it’s really the apex alpha males that allowed and allow this and benefit greatly from it, through vast amounts of hot pussy, voters to pander to and get elected by, consumers to buy over-priced crap, and more workers to drive down wages. Since the top males and most of the women are in alliance at the current moment, along with many white knight and mangina supporters, there’s not much that average men can do at the moment beyond learn the truth and try to make the best of their situation–learn some game, figure out what they want and try to go for it as best they can, hopefully find one of the too-few women that haven’t been too intoxicated by the dominance of the feminine and feminist imperatives.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:22 am
@Mark – Jesus man, wake the fuck up! Don’t live in denial!
On the whole: I find it hilarious that Kate considers the theft of a man’s money (buying her a house) to be a “moral dilemma”. Perhaps she can pay off a quarter-million-dollar-property at the equivalent of one $100 sex-act at a time, then her conscience will be clear.
‘Course, that’s the long view. It’d be faster and easier to marry then divorce and collect her well-deserved cash and prizes. After all, she never loved him and so every sexual act was an act of deep humiliation. Having to endure sex once or twice a month while she was housed, clothed, and fed – basically pampered for nothing much – was so degrading to her heart and soul.
She really deserves everything that she can ream out of him, too. On an ongoing basis via alimony. He got her accustomed to living at a certain level of comfort, now that she’s kicking his shitty ass out the door she will still by God get that same level of comfort out of him. The courts will enforce it too, on pain of throwing him into jail. It’s his own fault.
Oh fuck, apologies to all. There is far too much reality in this comment. Girls and mangina’s may feel free to denigrate and scorn it with the utter contempt that it deserves.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:45 am
I could have been clearer. Maybe I should have emphasized the low class aspect of this phenomenon more. Of course these things happen! But it happens with a certain kind of woman with a certain kind of background far more often than it does with women in general. If we are talking about hood rats and trailer trash, that is a whole different story so far from my world that it is irrelevant. And even if you want to just reduce the sample to high-value women, the point remains that this kind of slutwife surprise is markedly less-occurring.
But, like every conversation on the internet, the moment one remarks “X has a tendency for Y,” it is read as “X is always Y” so that a personal exception becomes decisive evidence disproving the contention.
I remember when I first encountered internet porn, my immediate reaction was: every single woman must have naked photos on the web somewhere. The sheer volume and diversity and lack of repetition made the variety seem infinite, and for all practical purposes, it is infinite because there is only so much a finite mind can process. That is the result of our attempt (and failure) to comprehend the actual volume difference between exponentials. A hundred can seem like a thousand and a thousand a million.
For example, if a million dollars worth of $1000 bills were stacked, how high would it be? Twelve inches. Now guess how high a stack worth a trillion dollars be?
Sixty-three miles high.
A million seconds back was 12 days ago. A trillion seconds? 30,000 B.C.
When four of your friends tell you the same sordid tale, it is in our nature to extrapolate its occurrence into ubiquity. A survey asked college students to estimate what percentage of our population is gay. A plurality said 25% or more. Looking at our culture, you could imagine why so many could be so wrong. Statistical truth, less than 3%.
Regardless, I granted the point despite this phenomenon and rather rested my contention on instinct. The story does not make it past the uncanny valley for me. Why exactly? I’m not sure. It just smells. And sheer statistical probability backs up my hunch, no matter how many nationwide sluts call Tom Leykis to confess. When it is wall-to-wall ribaldry filling hours of podcasts, it seems like a lot. But even correcting for dishonesty and exaggeration, we are talking about how many stories altogether? A couple dozen? Let’s be generous and say a thousand. This is still a self-selected and self-reporting sample out of 150,000,000. Or less than a hundredth of a percent.
Further, I did not call it an “obvious” fake but rather the opposite: I could understand the temptation to not even pause to consider its veracity. Only upon specific, conscious reflection do the probabilities come into focus, and, as I said, there are reasons why the entire commenting readership glided right past the question.
Finally, only YaReally could skim what I said and then paraphrase it as “Sorry guys, average to beautiful women do NOT like depraved fucking. Light romantic candles and call her a goddess, that’s what they really want.”
It’s the same predictable, insufferable, jump-to-predetermined-conclusions this tool offers every time someone has a slightly different take on things. I’d figure an account hack if he ever responded differently.
My point was, the higher a girl’s sexual market value the less slutty/depraved she has to act to gain the same sexual attention. Not necessarily wants to act or even will act under certain circumstances. But has to act in order to compete with her prettier sisters. So we can draw general conclusions about a girl’s attractiveness sight-unseen based on behavior.
Isn’t this so obvious as to be beyond debate? Are there HB10 swingers and nudists and coprophages out there hiding from all detection? (“More than you imagine, prude!” is not an answer.)
I’m sure the Pick Up Scientists have even intricately plotted on Excel some sort of inverse relationship between “HB” and “availability” in coordination with the Z-axis of “difficulty to bang” or whatever else they preoccupy themselves with in the off-hours. Newsflash: girls with fewer options (uglier) can even the playing field by presenting themselves as easier to lay (sluttier).
Matt
December 5th, 2013 at 3:02 am
YaReally sagely informed this benighted audience:
Oh for fucksake. This is how deluded you imagine your critics are? That they don’t notice what decade they are in?
Could a person who isn’t stuck in the last millennium possibly call bullshit on your exaggerated assertions?
Witness how absurdly you have to caricature an opponent in order to make your conclusions seem inarguable. What makes you think you have any idea what would “surprise[]” this fellow you’ve never met and probably never even engaged before?
Are you saying — let me get this straight — that the sexual marketplace has changed over the last sixty years? That Eisenhower is no longer president? Madness! We went to the moon, too? POPPYCOCK.
No. Shit. Sherlock.
December 5th, 2013 at 3:19 am
Ah, and Matt the Queen, too. Another gift that keeps on giving.
Put him together with LT and you’ve got a standing ovation.
December 5th, 2013 at 3:30 am
@King <3
"My point was, the higher a girl’s sexual market value the less slutty/depraved she has to act to gain the same sexual attention."
The part you don't get is that they WANT to act like that. They just can't, because society will judge them and they don't want to scare off their long-term significant others. But they WANT to do that shit. A lot of them. Even the high-SMV women. You would know that if you fucked or even associated with them outside of your fantasy land. They want it the same way you want to be the girl in that college gangbang video.
"Oh for fucksake. This is how deluded you imagine your critics are? That they don’t notice what decade they are in?"
No, I'm sure he's completely aware of what the calendar says. But I've said before and I'll say again: if you aren't out there routinely gaming, picking up, and banging <25yo's, you simply aren't in a place where you can make statements along the lines of "girls aren't really like that, that only happens in porn". Like it's not a matter of this guy is a lesser human being or anything, it's a matter of not having the recent relevant experience to make judgements on the current culture.
If someone who learned to use computers in the 70s and then stopped using computers 20 years ago, stated stuff like "I might be old, but computers don't really work that way", I would say the same thing. Things have changed, and if you're not in the thick of it, your opinion is out-dated. This shouldn't be something that I have to explain, but I know you just like to niggle at details like a chick instead of addressing the points I'm making.
This is the same reason why I point out that you don't go out. Your experience isn't relevant, because you don't have any. You just theorize from your arm-chair, so by default your opinions should be viewed as dubious at BEST.
Now maybe this 50+ dude is out slaying 22yo poon every week, I don't know, but I doubt it lol The guys that are, know that 3-somes really aren't that big a deal to girls these days and a lot of them are into or at least curious about them and up for it if you set the logistics up in a judgement-free environment.
December 5th, 2013 at 6:24 am
Its not justification, gents. Its called “empathy.” Remember the post? Putting yourself in someone else’s situation. It goes both ways and its good practice. Push your understanding further. It doesn’t mean you have to accept or allow poor behavior; it means you make your knowledge power.
Matt is right in that many of you don’t know any better. Some of us do. Some of us are. And those moral decisions are clear cut and straightforward. But for others, they may not be.
Deti, you were just laying in wait for someone to jump on. See how you materialized that which you wished to exist? The power one way or another to create our own realities is within us, not without. The tools are in your own hands. And now my hands are going to make a sandwich as I know from experience what a waste of time it is to ask anyone to think too far beyond their own limits.
December 5th, 2013 at 8:37 am
Matt,
The fallacy is putting slutty and depraved like they are the same. A woman will slut it up (make it easy) to get attention from males she couldnt get otherwise, she will also put up with shit from high value men, and in a lot of cases, will LIKE to put up with shit from high value men. You know, loving the drama of it.
Depravity though. 50 shades of grays didnt become a besteller because “it had to”, and women didnt “put up with it”. They devoured it.
You know the type of men women are usually attracted to and that women dont seem to have an inner moral compass and they are like glutton kids. Yet you think that a higher SMV woman, who’s only attracted to the very top and most dominant men, who has every boundary in the world being bended to please her, will want “less” depravity that the common girl who can only get it from books.
Dude. Any depravity she has in herself will be maximized by her SMV.
It’s like you havent watched tv and dont know the lifestyles of the very top female celebrities plus that you dont “know” enough women in your real life, or at least not how I know them.
You seems to think that beauty has anything to do with virtue, and that women are virtuous by nature, so a beautiful woman would naturally be less subjected to the forces of the evil external world, and be more natural, therefore more virtuous.
Im chocking in my coffee here.
December 5th, 2013 at 8:47 am
A woman talking about empathy. Now that’s a laugh.
RPSMF’s list about male waste’s of time earlier is correct.
December 5th, 2013 at 8:52 am
Kate,
Right, so its very hard for a man who’s at a teens girl camp not to fuck all of them. Lets apply some “empathy”.
The house thing and committing fraud is not a moral dilemma – like there was some kind of puzzle. The choice is to commit an immoral action or not to do it.
I can totally understand that a woman would like to prostitute herself for a house, take a hubby she’s not attracted to and cheat on him with the bodyguard. I can understand if then she decides to kill the hubby. I feel for her. Man, some days you cannot have it all.
But just because a question has morals involved that doesnt make it a dilemma and doesnt make it (morally) confusing. The morality of it is clear. The question is more on the self image side. Am I a good person or am I an abomination? which can be answered by her own actions only.
Then there’s the question of how to avoid getting caught and what to do with the bodies. The moral aspect of the whole puzzle is the easy one.
December 5th, 2013 at 8:56 am
It’ll sound obvious…but it needs to be said.
The easiest way to not get caught..is to not do it in the first place.
Once actions get involved it gets a lot more messy.
December 5th, 2013 at 9:22 am
Kate:
It’s not about wanting to “jump” on someone or manufacturing outrage. And your comments have not been about illustrating “moral dilemmas”. Deciding whether or not to marry someone you’re not attracted to because he’ll give you money and a house is not a “moral dilemma”. Marriage fraud which serves the interest of one party but not the other is not a “moral” choice, nor does it present a difficult, “gray area” set of issues which require a lot of grappling with and resolving competing moral interests.
It’s simply whether you’re going to choose an immoral course of conduct, or not.
But you’re not framing it that way. You’re trying to frame marriage fraud as somehow morally correct and justifiable in some circumstances, probably depending on the woman’s real or perceived needs. You’re trying to frame a cold hearted decision by a woman to flat out use a man as a morally correct act, so long as that serves a perceived “greater good”.
I don’t deny that women do this all the time. And I don’t deny that men agree to it. The question is not whether it happens or why, but whether it is good, right, moral, and correct. You say it is. I say it isn’t.
December 5th, 2013 at 9:31 am
And the only way to justify marriage fraud is to present it as one of many “hard” questions of “morality”.
“Oh, it’s not cut and dried. See, there are nuances.”
“She’s not ALL bad. She is a wife and mom. So this little lie should be excused.”
“She needs a man to care for her. She needs a house. There’s a man who she doesn’t love and isn’t attracted to, who is offering marriage and a house. Decisions, decisions. What should she do? This is such a tough moral question. Should she be honest and decline? Or should she lie through her teeth, fake it, hope it sticks, use the guy, ruin his life (and probably her life and that of any children born to her (not necessarily to him))? What should she do? What a “moral dilemma”.
December 5th, 2013 at 9:47 am
Perhaps her father didn’t get her the Schwinn bike she wanted so bad at age 10…so she took it out on him by getting gangbanged.
Or the serial killer wasn’t hugged enough by his mother…so that’s why he chopped up people to bits.
Those type of “nuances”?
December 5th, 2013 at 9:51 am
We always go back to the same. For a woman, moral means “whatever serves my interests the most”.
Whatever connections a woman has with the world they pass through the lense of herself. All the factors can be bended but she remains constant.
It’s like every woman’s mind is a fallacy:
A) Fraud is immoral.
B) I am a moral person.
C) Committing fraud would benefit me greatly.
And here’s the twist:
D) Since Im a moral person, the fraud I commit must be moral too
C) Fraud is moral.
* * *
It’s like reading general relativity where the timespace bends around the constant of the speed of light. A factor will not change so everything else has to adapt.
The opposite would be to have her define herself according to her actions. That would be based on facts and tangible stuff. But being defined by what you do and the choices you make is the man’s world. The female world revolves around the self. They see actions, words, etc depending on who is performing them.
That’s how alphas can get away with anything and how they hate rival women for pretty petty stuff and why everything is personal. Because that’s the fact, everything is about the person.
Kate likes this woman because she’s a mother, and a wife. Those are good things to be. Therefore the fraud must be good too.
December 5th, 2013 at 9:52 am
My boss was passed out drunk with 10 grand of company money sitting there. What a moral dilemma!
December 5th, 2013 at 9:58 am
Thats why we fail at convincing women through logic. The conclusion doent just serve to evaluate reality: it changes their own perception about themselves, which cannot be done unless you address that directly.
Im thinking that strawman is the only possible way to solve this issue. Make it directly about themselves. Its not that your actions are bad, its that “you” are bad. Use shame, rhetorics, not logic. That’s what they are getting about the exchange anyway. That’s why they keep asking “what do you really mean with that” so use it. Women do adapt to shame.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:02 am
*I meant ad hominem, not strawman.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:02 am
“Its not that your actions are bad, its that “you” are bad.”
Yup…defiling actions do come from the heart.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:19 am
Man:
“I want to do this, but I know it’s wrong. I will do it anyway, and suffer the consequences.”
Woman:
“I want to do this, but I know it’s wrong. Doing this will give me what I want. Therefore, it is right, moral and correct that I get what I want, and this morality outweighs the immorality of my doing something I know is wrong.”
Or:
“I need something that he has. His giving me what he has will serve my needs. Therefore, it is right, moral and correct that I do whatever I need to do in order to get from him what I need. The fact that I am doing something wrong is not as important as the fact that my wrong conduct will still deliver to me what I need.“
December 5th, 2013 at 10:28 am
Male logic…female logic. Based in cartoon form.