Case Study – Adam’s Lament

 

The following dialog is from a recent consult (published with permission) from a young man, Adam, who’s becoming red pill aware in the wake of a breakup. I’ll let his quotes tell the story here:

 My girlfriend broke up with me last month due to her want to find herself and her self-imposed reasons to remain single (she just turned 22 and I just turned 24).

The first consideration I’ll make is that both of you are far too young for a monogamous relationship. Your 20s should be a period of learning for both sexes. Unfortunately it’s becoming more common for guys to hear this and take offense due to this socialized romantic notion that an LTR ought to be some idealized goal state, but the truth of it is that an LTR in this period of a man’s life more often than not becomes debilitating in his maturation.

What young men raised on Disneyesque romantic ideals fail to consider is that a mature LTR requires responsibility, liability and accountability that limit a young man’s potential and paralyze him in the prime years of his life. These are the years that should be devoted to ambitions and passions that will lead to financial and personal success (i.e. college, career, etc.) and contribute to his peak SMV later in his life.

Too many men lament later in life that they should’ve done more in these years preparing for their own successes rather than becoming saddled in dead end relationships. They lament their lives that could’ve been once they realize that their SMV maturation happens after  women’s peaks. Time and the freedom to maneuver within your interests are a man’s most valuable resources. As a Man on the other side of this I can tell you that there are few material things I have a want for now, but time for myself and my passions, that is constantly adjusted by my career, my wife, my daughter, my commute in traffic etc., is the most precious thing I can think of. Why young men who would otherwise fiercely defend their own independences would so readily and voluntarily give this up in order to secure the intimacy of a single woman is one of the greatest crimes perpetrated on men by a feminized, romanticized society.

Also understand that your Ex is going through a similar phase as well. Between the years of 18 and about 26 are the prime years for a woman to weigh her hypergamous options. I call these the “party years” for attractive young women. Generally they include college, but it’s during this period that women explore the benefits afforded to them by their peak SMV and looks.

The hard truth is that most women on some level understand that this period represents the peak of their sexuality and attractiveness and this is their best chance to explore sex and relationships without consideration for limiting the conditions they place on their intimacy. All women have an innate understanding that the older they get the less sexually marketable they become.

This frustrates young men (particularly plugged-in betas who internalized an ideal that an LTR is a goal state) until they come to the realization that the older a man gets, the more sexually marketable he becomes since this generally implies he has attained a certain amount of confidence, professionalism, status, affluence and a list of other conditions women value in trading their intimacy for long term security. At 22, these principles go unrecognized in women, yet their behaviors are predictable enough to prove that these conditions and understandings are in play later in life.

She complimented me when we dated for the 5 month relationship that I was the best catch she had found so far, but the timing was off in that she met me at a time where she was trying to force herself not to be co-dependent (she broke up with her last b/f of 1.5 years so she could find herself and remain single) it didn’t last long because she found me 2 months later and dated me for the second half of this year.

You were flattered by her compliment because it affirmed your ego-investment in LTRs as a goal state as correct. Your frustration is that her behavior and her stated reasoning for it confounds this ideology. Lets also consider that if she had a year and a half “relationship” with a previous boyfriend, a half-year with you, and she’s now 22, her relationship experience has been limited to adolescent socializations. She still uses whatever behavioral skills she learned in her adolescence. Not a good benchmark for validating you as the “best catch she has found so far” to put it mildly. Rather, this is a convenient way of “letting you down easy” in order to preserve her own ego and hopefully make you feel better for going off to do what she really wants to do anyway.

She was my first g/f in nearly 6 years and also the girl I lost my virginity too.

And here’s the rub. I swear, basic math skills are all a red pill advocate needs to pick apart situations; If she was your first girlfriend in 6 years and you are now 24, this would mean the last girl you considered a girlfriend was back when you were 18. Again this implies that you yourself are employing an adolescent social skill set in evaluating what course you think inter-gender relationships ought to follow. There’s no shame in this, I’m not pointing it out to put you down, but understand that this is how you and she are operating even if you’re unaware of it.  

You also lost your virginity to her. Stop thinking of it in these terms, this is what I’d expect to hear an emotional girl say. Only women”lose” their virginity, this is part of the feminine imperative’s controlling of the language. When women ‘lose’ their virginity it perpetuates their vaginas as the precious prize while also continuing the narrative of default female victimhood.

For you it was the beginning of opening a new part of your maturation process since sex (even casual sex) always implies new responsibilities that must be compensated for. However I do understand your attachment to her due to this and the fact that you’ve internalized monogamy as goal state myth. We all have a life long affinity for our first sexual partner since they are the ones with whom we share this life experience – you never forget your first.

 I matured a lot and unfortunately didn’t find your blog until too late. I’ve read all the articles online and now started reading the DJ Bible at SoSuave so I won’t get so screwed next time and be able to walk away sooner instead of dragging it out.

Good.

Do you really think she broke up with me because her reason?

No, I think she’s obeying her hypergamous biological imperative that the phase her life is in is dictating for her.

Personally, I think it’s a copout and she’s afraid of commitment.

This is, to the letter, exactly what I’d expect a girl to say about a guy when she is 30+ years old and ready to cash her chips in on marriage. The irony of a guy using the same jingoisms (“commitment phobic”) women use to describe the men they want to coerce into monogamy with them is an indictment of the power of the feminine imperative. Stop thinking like a chick and start thinking like an adult man with a firm understanding of his own masculinity. You MUST unlearn the idea that an LTR is the key to life’s happiness; it is not.

I think that she’d rather be able to have one night stands where she lives (bay area) whereas I live in San Diego.

Of course she would, she’s in her party years and it is what it is – so long as she’s mature enough to acknowledge and accept responsibility for her actions (doubtful). Also, this isn’t a statement on yourself, stop interpreting it like it is. She’s not a worse person for not subscribing to your romanticized conditioning of how women ought to want commitment. On some level of consciousness she understands the hypergamic opportunities this period of her life presents her with and her behavior is the result of this. 

Will she regret this part of her life later? Most likely. Will she look back to you as someone significant to her during her 20′s when she’s 30 and ready to cash her chips out? Probably not, but this isn’t your concern. This episode represents a point of departure for your life – departure from your old adolescent self into a mature, Game aware Man. You’re unplugging.

What’s more concerning to me is that after all you’ve described to me, this half-year “relationship” is long distance. Are you kidding me? How often could you have had sex with her while you’re on opposite ends of the state? You’re pining over an LDR and my take on this is that there is no such thing as an LDR; you do not have a relationship with her, nor did you ever really have one.

One or both parties in an LDR are going to “cheat” – though I can’t really call it cheating since it’s simply behavior manifesting itself in conditions that aren’t conducive to what our natural impulses are. Adam, this girl hasn’t hurt you, she’s helped you. By breaking it off she’s given you the freedom you need to grow beyond these silly adolescent ideologies that an LDR should ever have been an option for a mature Man.

She’s an atheist whereas I am a Christian and that kind of bugged her even though I dropped some values to date her…



For men, sexual impulse will almost universally trump moral conviction when the opportunity presents itself. Again, no shame here, but it’s telling that you’d expect her to appreciate your having sacrificed some (loose) convictions for doing what you wanted to do anyway. You’re not a martyr for dropping any values for having sex with her and it doesn’t place you on some moral high ground that she should change her mind about entertaining an LTR with you.

She said even if I moved up north to be with her or her down here she’d still break up with me to “find herself” because of her major need to be single.

They very fact that you considered altering the course of your young life to better accommodate your idealized relationship with this girl by relocating to San Francisco ought to scare the hell out of you. Are you so optionless that a girl 600 miles away is a better prospect than exploring other women in your own area? I can’t tell you how many men I’ve counseled who’ve irreparably damaged their lives, made career choices they’ve regretted for decades and voluntarily killed any hope of genuine ambition they may have had by doing exactly what you considered here – changing their address to better facilitate a ONEitis hope that the one girl who ever fucked them would eventually become their soul-mate wife.

I just don’t get this girl. After a month of blackout and breakup now she’s really trying hard to be friends. I suspected her screwing a guy before she came down to see me, so maybe that’s why she called it off when she did.

So what? Spin more plates. If you had other potential women interested in you it would make no difference whether she wanted to play “friends” with you or screwed some other guy.

I was an AFC then, but I still spoke up for myself and stood my ground. Basically, I gave her an ultimatum.

Sorry Adam, but you still are and AFC or at least an rAFC. Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness; by doing so you’ll kill any interest a woman may have had for you as this is the last resort of a lack of confidence. This is the kiss of death. You get points for manning up and speaking your mind, but it’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.

I said if we have sex then we need to be exclusive. It’s all or nothing and if she doesn’t then she needs to be out of my life because I couldn’t trust her with all the guys I knew that were trying hard to sleep with her.

For as noble as your intent, she will only interpret this as a supreme insecurity on your part. You’re not going to talk her off the cock-carousel, neither should it be your responsibility to do so.

Adam, you need to let go of this notion that you require exclusivity in an LTR, particularly at your age. It’s self-defeating.

You have to unlearn this misguided idea that exclusivity is a necessity at your stage of life. All the Game skills in the book wont help you get past this basic idea. You will only settle for the first girl to respond to them. My advice to you is to NEXT this girl and get out into the field and sarge. Stop it with this LDR crap, they are fundamentally flawed and are only exacerbated by the ONEitis you have for this girl and will fluidly develop for the next one because it fits your old paradigm.


101 responses to “Case Study – Adam’s Lament

  • Dark wolf

    I wish you had your blog when I was 24. Oh well. Better late than never. Still a good reinforcement for old fogeys like me.

  • ajb240

    Unplugging is a painful but ultimately liberating process. I’m going through some of the same things as Adam. I would say I’m recovering… learning game, trying to do more approaches, understanding the feminine imperative. Your blog helps immensely.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Rolo, honosteley.

    I’ve been following you for some time ever since I found you were pretty much constant in your delivering of good game/women material in Roissy’s blog, even when it was called Roissy.

    I liked you. I did consider you an authority up untill now.

    I find a once great commenter at the gentleman’s club that was Roissy in D.C. now devoted to simply regrugitate terms like afc, the plug, red pill, you name it.

    A bit of background on my person: I am a fucking beta, I suffer from oneitis. I actually DENIED MYSELF THE OPPORTUNITY to fuck a 18 years old model who wanted me because I had to be around my oneitis, knowing perfectly that I wouldn’t get any from her. (by the way, I think my oneitis is hotter). I consider that recently I lost all my friends and fucked considerably my relation with my own father just because I couldn’t bare something that happened with my oneitis. I disappeared from the face of the earth for at least seven months.

    The thing is, are you really telling ME that you condone the cock carousel?

    Honestly, can you tell ME that I shouldn’t pursue LTRs with young, hot, tight, beautifull, pleasent, rich, fun, good girls just because they “have to follow the hypergamy”?

    What the fuck are you saying man? That I should wait till I’m thirty and go after used up bitter 30yo women? WTF?

    One thing is to tell young men to not be overwhelmed by their feelings and their expectations about girls.

    Another thing is to condone girls, good girls, to pursue the cock carrousel. If you do that you’re the enemy.

    Right now, I am 22 and I am preparing myself to die old and alone, simply because, right now, I feel I will never marry to a girl older than mid 20s or a whore. Yes, I may give up my life plan and sucumb to cuddle with a degradant bitch. But don’t get me wrong, that’s a surrender, nothing more tthan a surrender.

    Please answer my questions. We may be up for a great dialogue.

  • RockHard

    I got fired from a job for the first time in my life a few months back and that HURT. At the time, someone told me that in 5 years I’d look back and see that my ex-employer did a great thing for me. 5 years later, I see that advice was dead on. That company is walking dead and I picked up an even better job and I’m doing awesome.

    Young man, she gave you a gift: she showed you who she really is. Get your shit squared away, live your life as a man, and in 20 years she’ll be contacting you on whatever Facebook substitute is popular trying to get back what she could have had.

  • Hanldingtheredpill

    I’m getting into a similar situation now. Been together 6 months….both students. She’ll be away 2 months this winter and 3 months next summer. I will graduate , she’s got another year. The winter should be ok since we can visit each other ….. but summer after I graduate will be near impossible for me to leave ( unless I go on a working holiday type of thing) …. Either I ride it out till Summer or I break up this winter. Tough decision.

  • Vicomte

    Rollo, I’ve always been confused about your advice on these matters.

    What about a LTR precludes success and improvement? How does simply having a girlfriend make one’s entire world about said girlfriend?

    I understand that it works that way for many men, but that seems more a problem of the men, and not the relationship itself.

    At the end of the proverbial day, is there really any difference between the (alpha) man that spins plates and the (alpha) man that has an exclusive girl?

    I’m not sure everyone needs to fuck around to learn the lessons. One girl can teach them as well as fifty, and often with greater effect.

  • taterearl

    Take it from me…30 for a man who has his game, is in shape, and has a good job is like 19 for a woman. The world is your oyster.

    Looking back on it…I’m glad nothing materialized in my 20s. I would have been looking at a LTR or marriage that would have brought nothing but misery to me.

  • Chuck Hammer

    As correct as you are, Rollo, reading your essay makes my skin crawl.

    The first consideration I’ll make is that both of you are far too young for a monogamous relationship. Your 20s should be a period of learning for both sexes.

    Really? There was a time when a 21 year old was considered an adult. I was an infantry platoon leader (in the British Army) when I was 20.

    I would say your 20s should be a time when you’re building a life and a family with a compatible woman. Unfortunately for your seito this is no longer possible as most 22 year old women are focused on launching their empowering HR careers and exploring the performance limits of their sexual flight envelope. It takes an extraordinarily self-aware women to forego all that for marriage (or LTR) to some puppy-eyed chump.

    I would tell your seito there’s nothing wrong with him, that his bonding instincts are normal for a young man but he has been fucked by the sexual power disparity between him and his girl.

    For the girl, very little good will come of using her 20s as a “period of learning.” For your seito, getting his skin ripped off a couple more times will deliver a mindset where in his 30s he can exploit women the same way he has been exploited.

    I did everything the right way. Married at 31, big bucks corporate drone, started a business, still married, my son a freshman recruited athlete at an Ivy League School. And I still dream about the girl I loved when I was 21.

  • Dillon

    Understanding women is the key here. Women want the best deal they think they can get at any given time in return for minimum cost to them. Sometimes it takes two or more men in parallel. Most good looking women are on a never ending auction for the highest bidder at any given time. That’s just the way it is. Be ok with it.

    There is nothing wrong with a LTR as long as its on your terms. What begins must one day end. When either your or her interest goes away, don’t hesitate to move on.

    LTR is not the problem. Attachment to LTR is the problem. Be willing to walk away anytime. Do not invest in any woman in such a way that you will regret walking away at a moment’s notice. Even a woman who stays in a commited LTR does so because she percieves it as the best deal for her. This perception can change at any time. Be ready.

    When you fully understand women, there will be no reason to be hurt. Spin plates, work out, eat healthy, save money etc.

  • Hero

    @Hanldingtheredpill

    Why break up at all? This is a question I wished someone had asked me when I was younger. Why not spin plates and keep her as an option. I bet she will want to come see you later. Do you need exclusivity from her?

  • Danger

    “Adam, you need to let go of this notion that you require exclusivity in an LTR, particularly at your age. It’s self-defeating.”

    This part may be a bit misleading, depending on what you mean by LTR. I would not consider an LTR with a woman who states she “justs want to have sex for now”. What she is really saying is “I am going to fvk other men while I fvk you and keep you on the hook, but first I’m going to explore all of my options”.

  • Dreamer

    Hopefully I get to write this before a response is written to Alfonso.

    When I just read the post the above. I also got similar thoughts in how it sounds like. Fortunately your post allows me to focus on the related manosphere memes and what I think will be around the likely response.

    First, it is important it define the message and what the commentary is already praising is I think encapsulated below.

    1. Which is the 24 year old man is too young and have too much to look forward to tie himself down to any single girl. Better to instead focus on building his life up and direct the energies of youth to that direction. Many comments are and will be the benefits from being able to enjoy such experiences that LTRs tend to prevent.

    2. The mentalities that hurts which is coined with name “LTR as a goal”. It is a damaging mentality as it is not an LTR created by a strong mutual attraction rather it is an LTR generated by a sense of duty to be monogamous and/or fear for explore more girls. Many are and will be about that.

    The secondary message is implied and articulated by you.

    The related manosphere thoughts are:

    1.The cock carousel with the damage it does to women as brought up before by other bloggers like Dalrock. Roissy have also linked to studies that found the higher number of sexual partners, the lower attachment for each subsequent partner. Also studies the higher the partner count, the higher the divorce rate. Also more anecdotal observation of lower amount of “life in the eyes” and talking point that the strongest memory is always the first (including the mention in the above post).

    2. The second talking point I seen in manosphere blogs where people once was able to marry young and marry without issues (or supposedly, but at least divorce rates was lower) and marry with the girl being a boon to the man rather than an anchor in his young age. It falls under the tradiosphere area of blogs or commentariat.

    This also reminds me of a post-thread in Half Sigma. One commentator made a point that most guys would (initially at least) don’t mind marrying young to a young girl as long she is offering the best years to her. Whereas even dating a much older girl implies she prefer using her best years for other guys.

    I don’t think that comment it is a major meme in the Manosphere, but that point does have a reasonable logic: The implication that the older women have a high chance that she wouldn’t have offer any attraction if she was still 22 vs 32. Combined with the likely “life-building” of that 10 years for the counterpart, it feels rather insulting. Congrats! You spent 10 years improving, developing, and saving for a girl will have 10 years of other men flashing warmly and nostalgically in her head.

    Still, this post does reminds of that comment in HS blog with the wisdom about ensuring genuine and strong attraction. It has an implication that the ideal person is a person to have a none to low partner count. Which implies mostly younger women.

    However, with the message of LTR as a goal as a problem. This means to avoid the mentality, not wait till 30 say it is now safe to shack up with a 22 year girl.

    Personally, this also means in terms of genuine and strong attraction. A girl that “in to you” when one is at 24 is no different than 34 – aside the common conflicts that at many are not very settled in the 20′s. Also many may not hold up that well over the years.

    I can’t help but think that this means if a girl is actually attracted at 22 at her peak while at age 24 and is will to be the supportive role rather than an ambition killer (which this relates to traditional thought), many guys might not mind that. The problem with that thought that is speaking to exceptions scenarios, many/most don’t act in that role to be a boon and many have a hard time finding that level of attraction at 24. I have doubts Rollo would agree with that line of thought. But I want to say it.

    I’m pretty sure Rollo, if/when (hopefully when) he responds does not condone that ending. I suspect it is spoken more as the statement of the likely life trajectory and the focus and message is the articulation of the mentality and its damage it causes in personal context. Marriage and LTRs I suspect is a hard thing to explain in this philosophy which is LTR as a by-product (as in monogamous by actual and mutual desire). Rather hard to explain a by-product when to explain and think about it mean structuring it as a goal.

  • Dreamer

    Okay so writing a huge essay means getting beaten hard. Well, the Dream Killer response is related to some thoughts I put down. Getting a girl, even a girl who fits well and motivated by mutual desire tends to mean obligations (for example, every been-in or know people in the conflict of moving for an career opportunity with a serious girl).

    The paragraph that the scenario of the girl who act as a boon could be possible. Traditional writers implying that role of support. But like I said in that paragraph, that’s not a general scenario. That role is much harder in a time of encouraging careers and avoidance of submission.

  • Pedro

    Afonso Henriques… That was boring conversation. You are a loser whining about oneitis.

    18 year old model? Just because she has some pictures on Facebook doesn’t make her a model. Shoulda tapped that.

    Your name looks Portuguese. Portuguese chicks are great for LTR’s. When I was 21 I was an AFC and got only average chicks.

    Yes you should persue the LTR if you want it. Tip: if she doesn’t want it move the fuck on and don’t become a stalker or loser orbiter hoping you will fuck if you stick around for a year.

    I moved to a college town, I’m 29 now and am banging 18 to 22 year old Portuguese college chicks at about 2 to 4 lays a month. These girls are much hotter than when I was in college 8 years ago! It’s all good!

    Stop crying like a bitch and do some approaches. Man up and respect your family. Acorda pá vida!

  • YaReally

    Awesome breakdown. I wish I had seen this when I was younger and I know a few young’uns I’ll be linking it to. It really is an unplugging mindfuck to realize an LTR in your 20s actually holds you back in developing yourself as a man.

    Great article, hope Adam follows your guidance. There’s a world of awesome women out there that he should be experiencing.

  • Bateman

    Afonso Henriques, hypergamy does not care if Rollo’s condones or does not condones the cock carousel, it simple is

  • Afonso Henriques

    Pedro,

    Yes, I’m Portuguese. I know its boring conversation and I was only giving my own example and extrapolating from it.

    The 18yo model was legit. I don’t like many things about her and thus I consider her a 6, but if “she took a shower” she’d usually be an 8 with much potential to become a 9.

    Your last paragraph is spot on BUT I need some self respect right now. Shit happened that teared me down, and I don’t go down for a bitch. So, now my main goal is to earn my self respect again.

  • Afonso Henriques

    To all:

    The thing is not quantity. It would be a lot of fun to spin plates and what not. Mind you, I may even call an escort or two, I have the money.

    Nothing of these matters now. What I’m talking about is…

    It’s an ethical question. Rollo said its okay to let yourgilfriend leave you and let her ride the carouselle.
    I think it’s not.

    And of course women have hypergamous tendencies. But is it ethical for us to use it as an excuse for bad behaviour?

    Is it ethical to counsel a young man to : Yeah! Wait till you’re 30 so you can be a great player and fuck those old girls who are useless and not younger, hotter, tighter. Or USE young girls.

    Either way you lose. You can’t have a fullfilling relation with a woman. Unless you consider fulfilling 1) having a girl who’s been fucked by the whole village and didn’t offer herself to you when she was younger, hotter, tighter and 2) Use women just because it’s fun and great.

    I automatically exclude a girl as a girl friend potential if she shows indications that she’s had more than 3 cocks in her life.

    I want to focus on quality. Simply, quality. Of body and soul.

    And I cannot tolerate when a man I viewd as an authority, such as rollo, tells us young men that we have to let our pure girlfriends go and materialise the hypergamy.

  • Afonso Henriques

    I will return with nerdy, detailed responses to all of you.

    [Once again, you should really read this before you comment again – Dream Killers]

  • Dillon

    @ Alfonso

    You cannot control others. We live in a capitalist system where everyone wants the best deal they can get. If she thinks carousel is the way to go, that’s what she will do.

    You don’t have the ethical right to try to stop her and you can’t.

    If on the other hand she is dedicated to you and vice-versa, there’s no problem.

  • FuriousFerret

    Seems like Adam is having a ultimately good experience provided he has someone to tell him the truth as to what is ultimately happening.

    Getting your ass kicked is often times the best teacher life has to offer.

  • JS

    You could have advised Adam to find another Christian, or perhaps a Mormon, who takes monogamy seriously and who wants early marriage and children.

  • FFY

    “I said if we have sex then we need to be exclusive. It’s all or nothing and if she doesn’t then she needs to be out of my life because I couldn’t trust her with all the guys I knew that were trying hard to sleep with her.”

    That is something girls say.

    I’m glad you wrote this Rollo, I have been on the “You don’t need a girlfriend” bandwagon and pushing that for a long time. It’s such a crippling mindset that many men have, thinking that they need a gf or that they have to be in a relationship to have good times, companionship, and sex.

    Not true.

  • FFY

    @Alfonso

    “Rollo said its okay to let yourgilfriend leave you and let her ride the carouselle”

    “tells us young men that we have to let our pure girlfriends go and materialise the hypergamy”

    You’re not getting it. You don’t have a choice. You gonna chain her up? You think she is really “pure”? She shits every day just like you, nasty, dirty stuff, not flowers.

    Say no to the pedestal.

  • YaReally

    @Alfonso:

    “Rollo said its okay to let your gilfriend leave you and let her ride the carouselle. I think it’s not.”

    It’s not your choice. You don’t have control over this. You’re still holding onto the wheel. Let go and accept reality as it is, not as you want it to be:

    http://vimeo.com/11064775

    “I want to focus on quality. Simply, quality. Of body and soul.”

    To get quality, you need to be able to get quantity.

    Also you should start seeing a therapist/psychologist, you have a lot of issues going on that game probably isn’t going to help you get through. There’s no shame in it, I’ve known lots of guys who’ve gotten help sorting their lives out. You’ve picked a shitty identity (nerdy loser) and you revel in it and wear it like a badge to excuse yourself from doing the hard work necessary to overcome your shit, it comes across in your writing blatantly. A professional might be able to help you get started sorting it out…down the road game will help you, but you need to fix your general outlook on life and yourself first.

  • Dreamer

    I’ll make it short Afonso. In the Dream Killers post, his last two sentences was “It is to say don’t consider monogamy until you are mature enough to understand it’s limitations and you’ve achieved a degeree of success to your own satisfaction according to your ambitions and passions. It is also to say that women should compliment and support your plans for your own life” (His emphasis).

    As I wrote very verbosely before, the his message is about having the best mentality to your happiness or at least pointing out the ones that won’t. So some stuff got left out. The post above does seem to be worded as to avoid anything beyond a fling before 30, but the real message is to avoid relationships that sacrifices your dreams.

    In short, if I am interpreting correctly, if you actually want monogamy and the girl is a boon to your goals instead of a hindrance, go ahead. But remember, do you really want her or just want to take the easy path? If you do, does she help you achieve or is she really eliminating your goals?

    BTW, your last sense – “pure girlfriend” – is the wrong mentality. It doesn’t even matter if she was or not, you don’t want to think like that.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    If you want it paired down to one sentence,..

    “Women should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.”

    Both Alfonso and Adam are making a mythologized, idealized “Quality Woman” the focus of their lives. It’s an interesting parallel when you consider the argument a lot of Game denialists use when they accuse PUAs of “living for women” in the plural sense, when they live for a woman themselves in a singular sense.

  • Underdog

    I feel sorry for Adam. This is the most bitter part of the red pill. When it seeps into your very core and bitch-slaps your inner AFC.

  • Graf von Donnermarck

    Maybe simply Alfonso has no dreams.

  • Hallow

    On a side note, I’ve often seen those with the least ambition in life getting the most pussy.

    Don’t have to have big dreams, tons of money, etc…to be a player.

    Hell, if you simply have a talent you’re passionate about, and make enough to live in a shitty apartment, you’re good as gold. Actually, the dude I know who’s slept with 200+ women lives at home still. He’s just very charismatic & talented at guitar.

    Weird thing is, he’s a Christian that desperately wants a real relationship, but can’t ever keep one going ’cause he bangs every hot girl that talks to him. I can’t spend longer than 30 minutes with him out on the town day or night without at least 5 attractive women giving him their number or him hitting on chicks seamlessly.

    I should have him write a blog on “Christian Game”. He’s certainly the worst Christian I’ve ever met, but it gets him hella Fish (Pussy) [the Jesus Fish...]….

    I empathize with Adam. I’m from San Diego. And I’m 24. I was in a similar situation, sort of, a while ago, when I first found this blog.

    Spinning Plate’s is truly the way to go. I can’t thank Game, Heartiste, and Rollo enough for reminding me of who I was before I lost my shit to a diagnosed BPD. Swallowing the pill was/is difficult, but the benefits (with women, at least) are so apparent & ridiculously easy & obvious to me now I can’t help but laugh at nearly every girl that crawls out of my bed again and again confused as to how wordlessly I guided her there.

    Shit-tests, negs, etc…it’s all FUN to me now. I used to take this stuff so seriously, now women are literally a game, and an enjoyable one until I find someone later when I actually have my life together like people reccomended above.

    My 2 cents on All Hallow’s Eve.

  • Johnycomelately

    Super post.

    “The thing is, are you really telling ME that you condone the cock carousel?”

    That’s the equavalent of someone giving hurricane advice being accused of condoning hurricanes, nature simply is, Rollo is simply giving you the best advice in the given situation.

    It’s telling that most AFCs have a specific Christian world view, I have yet to meet a serious Christian who doesn’t have crippling mental schemas when it comes to women (I was one of them).

    How did a religion of fierce masculine independence turn to pussy pedastalizers?

  • The Karate Kid

    God damn is this depressing

  • Adam

    Johnnycomelately — that analogy was fucking spot on.

    YaReally — “to get quality, you need to be able to get quantity” amazing quote.

    Afonso — hypergamy doesn’t care about ethics.

  • Philalethes

    Rollo…

    “Women should only ever be a compliment to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.”

    I believe you mean “complement” — with two e’s. Look it up. Also, you’ve got your numbers mixed up: plural “women” with singular “compliment” (or complement) and singular Man. If you want this to be a quotable aphorism (the thought is certainly important enough), might as well get your grammar correct, as in:

    “A woman should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.”

    [Doh!]

  • FuriousFerret

    Philalethes

    Waht teh fuk? Du u relly hav to be a garmmar nazi?

    But seriously, really?

  • moth2flame

    For the majority of my teenage years I held the same Christian world view that some of the commenters here and the subject of this post hold. It took years to break them. Commenter Adam puts it best “hypergamy doesn’t care about ethics”. I really feel sorry for gents that have been socially and sexually stunted by some form of religion. Women are a strange and wonderful animal, once you fully harness and internalize “Game”, you will come to find that what Rollo say is true. Women should never be the purpose of your life. Godspeed Adam, I wish you the best.

  • Afonso Henriques

    I am sorry if I bother you all, but I will not regret it.
    I am warning you that this will probabily be a long comment. I will answer to you all thoroughly and the best as I can.

    1) Rollo, I read your post about women being dream killers. I agree with what you wrote. I cannot pick one of your premises and say that they are fallacious. You really know more about women than most, you’re in the top 5% in this regard, in my opinion.

    However, I think that YOU are the one who is LIMITED. At least you’re limiting yourself, or better, your analysis in that post.
    You see, it appears that you deny women some of their femininity. As if, because it is not there for everyone, and you have to go deep to reach it – and it is not likely that a man can reach it so I understand that you leave it out – and because it is *irrelevant* to get the glorified bang … you seem to assume that women are not (so) feminine, nor can we, as men, provoke the blossom of their innermost femininity.
    By this I mean that feminine women have the impulse to nurture and to be loyal. [War Brides] Of course, women are bitches and no man should consider a woman loyal to him, a priori. I’d even say that women are NOT loyal by nature. But that when a woman is feminine enough, and is envolved with a partner she loves (aka alpha), she will tend to be loyal to him, and this can be demonstrated by Roissy’s maxim that 5 minutes of alpha are worth 5 years of beta; and that women when properly seduced and maintained by an alpha, will not entertain the willingness to fuck other men. This is femininity and it exists. In the sexual realm, women are more loyal than man because a man, no matter how well served by a woman he is, he will always entertain the willingness to fuck other women.

    My point being that in your post you seem to not consider that women, when properly stimulated and driven to it, can indeed be loyal. It is not likely to happen, but this imperative exists in women and does not exist in men in the same manner.

    You also seem to deny women their femininity because you seem to imply that women naturally tend to enjoy multiple partners. [Plate Theory - Lady's Game]Men are the ones who entertain the notion of a perfect, idilic existance in which he can deflower 72 virgins. A woman just asks to one man, the supreme ruler of the world, but yet, one man is the ideal for most women. Feminine good girls at least. [Good Girls Do]

    About men, I don’t understand why romantic love is a boogyman. If I had not been immersed in western culture, even if I didn’t have Traditionalist/Right Wing convictions… I’d still entertain the notion of romantic love, for when “my buttons are pushed” I cannot help but feel.[Men In Love] The experience of romantic love (extremely beta, I know. But it is the truth nonetheless. And we betas are the dangerous ones, that’s why the most beta oriented societies are the ones that triumph.) is a natural imperative for men.
    At least to me it is. And due to the cultural manifestations I witness, I believe a significant percentage of other men experience something similar to my experience.[True Romantics]
    Men want to get a girl, fuck her good, not letting anyone approach her and have a fucking family with her.
    I would say this is a drive. It drives men towards achievment, romantic love. Personally, I’ve endured things that I wouldn’t be able to endured otherwise. I never imagined I would go through the meltdown I went trough just for failing when I was given a chance. Depression, I think, is nature’s way to say “you failed, you diserve to die”.

    Some men have the tendency to let it go when they get the girl. I wouldn’t. Because I feed on her. This is left out from most manosphere analysis, probabily because it is not the norm but, it is beyond doubt that man go weak without women (play videogames), and, if properly stimulated, can get stronger when they have a girl (being red pill aware is a great incentive to not let it go).[Identity Crisis]
    I get an inordinate amount of energy from the girls I am “romantically in love with”. And I believe many other men do too.
    So, I happen to truly believe that *QUALITY* man get better and do indeed improve themselves pretty much effortlessy when they have a girl. When they don’t they get nerdy and/or play videogames.

    I know that what I wrote in the previous paragraph seems to be “living towards women”. But it is not. You don’t have to have your live revolve around a girl you like to feel the increment in energy and potential that you (might) feel when you have her.
    I am very confident that this way of “living for women” is not more “living for women” than your “hey men, improve youselves and then when you’re 30 you can have your harem”-like idea.

    I think that a man who marries (and is romantically envolved with) a woman who has spent most of her twenties fucking other guys IS BARELY A MAN AT ALL. It is imoral to offer such a woman to a man, it is like offering a man a leg-deprived-horse. What’s the point then? Pop up kids? You may have kids then, but you sure don’t have a woman, or girl, or whatever is feminine.[Moral to the Manosphere]

    While I understand that it is *good* to spin plates. I truly don’t understand why monogamy is bad, specially if you have the best girl that exists (I am aware of the betaness, it is just an exemple). You seem to make the point that young men should not *ENJOY* monogamy because their girlfriends may leave them.
    If she’s gonna leave, she’s gonna leave. You better put up a fight against it and enjoy her a little bit more.
    While I understand that MEN should be prepered for the girl to want to leave, and that men should not put the girl as the centre of the universe, I don’t think that a good, feminine girl is not important, and I think that not enjoying something BECAUSE IT IS GOING TO END, is the uttermost stupidity.
    *Although I understand men should be aware and be prepered to face the bitter end with the minimum self destruction possible, for there will be other girls.

    ———————————————————————————————-

    Dreamer,

    1) If by “tie himself to a girl” you mean get all beta and get an oneitis, I agree with you wholehartedly.
    I just don’t understand is why is it better to spin plates if you can date a girl who is of higher quality than the girls you’d *just* fuck while spinning plates? And even if you don’t *just* fuck, the experiences you will have with the plethora of girls you’re bedding, are in no way as fullfuilling as having that special girl.
    In my current case of oneitis, which probabily is not as bad as you imagine, just being closely to “my” girl, talking intimately with barely any touches going on, was much more satisfying to me than making out with the model (which I didn’t come to fuck but which I kind of dated) while trading oral obsceneties.
    But where I strongly disagree with Rallo is when he seems to condone a girl to ride the carrouselle and he tells her destroyed ex-boyfriend that it is all good and normal. And that he’s better off without her because now he will be able to have other girls which will not come even close to his ex girlfriend, at least to him.
    I am not condoning change. I am condoning the acceptence that good girls *have to* ride the carouselle too. And that men are helpless in trying to fight it.

    2) I agree with you. I even consider I fit in in those who are afraid of exploring more girls. I go to college in an European capital and most of the girls here are bangable. 15% or so are 8s and above. But I can’t relate to them. I can’t approach them because I’ve been so emotionally abused that most of these girls simply don’t seem to be worth the effort of the approach, and when they seem to be, they are high 9s or 10s. and I know I have no chance. Yesterday I tryed to open a 5 in the train. It did go well, she responded nicely, do you know what I did? I started to crumble undar a laugh attack. It’s ridiculous.
    However, I think we’re talking about guys who really like their girlfriends so there is indeed attraction and not an obligation to monogamy.

    Half Sigma) Yes it does. To me, a man who marries (or is romantically envolved with) a girl who spent most of her twenties fucking other guys, is barely a man at all. On the other hand, if I at 22 sometimes have difficulties in relating to 18yo girls, based on their imaturity compared to me, you can imagine that once I get 30, I will feel real difficulties in connecting any more than sexually to a girl who is, say, 25 or younger.
    And I don’t think I need a girl to discuss things with, but I think I need a girl who can minimally understand and appreciate my vallues.
    As you yourself noticing, that particular logic, for men to not target girls in their prime in order to target older girls, is revolting and insulting indeed.

    About LTR mentality) I don’t have that mentality at all. I just want my girl to fuck me excluseviley and that no other man be even in the way to be close to fuck her. And when I say fuck, it is the same for attention.

    Dreamer, around here, the lower classes are having, trying to have, or considering having children at 25. When the middle/higher-middle class is out of college with a master degree. The degeneracy is insulting as well.

    Girl acting like a boon) It’s not the responsability of the women. It’s about the qualty of the man to put the girl in that state first, the capacity or willingness of the girl to act like a boon is secondary to the capacity of the man to elicit that state in her. That is my opinion and that has what I’ve seen. But yes, a plurality of girls can’t get there, and a majority of man cannot elicit that in their girls.

    ———————————————————————————————-

    Pedro, don’t get me wrong. But the kinds of girls your fucking are most likely nor quality girls. I don’t say this to upset you, it is just that I don’t fall for that type of girls who fucks older strangers. I have some friends like that and their hotness seems to evaporate from my eyes (well, it doesn’t, but I don’t put much effort in fucking them).
    It’s like Yareally talking that there’s a whole bunch of wonderfull women out there, just that I don’t want a thing to due with Yareally’s girls, for not only are they completley worthless as, well, more than fuck objects, as they have all been literally eating Yareally’s shit for breakfast.

    Bateman, to good girls it just doesn’t happen like that. It is a process. A process in which the girl comes to realise that she can’t get more than that or that it will not have consequences.
    For you to say that to me you’re either rather old or you are completeley out of touch with the kinds of girls I am competing for. Not all girls are whores. But most are. And we will have a limited access to those who are not.

    Dillon,

    that’s why I’m not a “capitalist” (not in the same way as you seem to be). And the revolution is underway. I was one of the people who was in contact with Breivik before the shootings in Norway, and while I don’t believe he did good… If you’re telling me that *my* girl has the right to ride the carouselle just because we’re in a capitalistic society… then I take pride in what that savage killer did. Some wars are worth fighting for.

    FFY and Yareally,
    Yes, I try the best as I can to say no to the pedestal. The reality of women in Western European sociesties and Western European derived societies is depressing. However, I think it is statistically impossible that all girls are fucking whores and are riding the carouselle.

    “To get quality, you need to be able to get quantity.”

    Great truth man. I should have understood this at 14 instead of 19.

    About your last paragraph, Yareally, I will not look for counseling. I know where I came from. I am still adapting to the severe blow and the unexpected decrease in quality of life. I know what my challenges are. Up to the summer, I have already lost. There’s no way. It’s just a matter of managing the losses and creating something to grow out of it. Which I will try to do, sickeningly proudly.

    ———————————————————————————————

    Dreamer,
    You talk of dreams while I talk merely of honour. In my particular case, weather this girl is/was my dream is irrelevent. What is important is how I behave when confronted with the situation. And thus, I can extrapolate, how men behave. And when I see written that men, or young men, should be passive and accept that the girlfriend leaves to be, something as low as a quasi slut riding the carouselle, and when I see people saying that its okay for girls (or good girls) to ride the carouselle, I find that it attacks my honour and, if we extrapolate, the honour of all men (as if people care anymore) or young men.
    Yes, I said pure to create a compelling contrast AND because it goes with my idealised notion of things. I know it’s an ideal and not real. I don’t believe girls can be angels. I just believe they *can* INSPIRE MEN as if they were. Two completeley different things, branching from the same ideal, which is only an ideal.

    ———————————————————————————————-

    I think that my conclusion is that allowing a woman, specially a girl you like, to ride the carrouselle is wrong. It will do no good for her and it is emasculating for men. Do you agree with me?
    I know that riding the cock carouselle happens, but it is nonetheless emasculating, a shame, and utmost negative. It is evil. I have no power so I assume it will continue to happen and I am the one who will have to live with that, but it doesn’t become a little less negative or emasculating. Rolo should tell young men that it is probable that your girl is going to ride the carrouselle and that you will have to deal with it.
    But for Rolo to condone it, aprove it, and tell young man that it is an inevitability that your hot, young, tight, beloved *just does have* to ride the carouselle, is pretty much wrong, immoral and offensive.

    P.S. – Sorry for the lenght, it is just too much. But I “fiquei com a pica” (Got the storns, got envolved in a fiery manner) and I had promised that I would answer you all the best as I could.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Rollo,

    That I suffer from the dreaded condition known as oneitis is a given.
    About this comment of yours:
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/case-study-adams-lament/#comment-11317

    I agree with what you say, but this wasn’t what spiked my revolt against you.

    Guy with a Germanic sounding name that makes me want to shove my foot up his ass,

    “Maybe simply Alfonso has no dreams”

    In that girly way that you’re thinking of, I surely do not.
    Women have dreams, men have goals.
    Are you scandinavian? I have found scandinavian man to be really, really feminised so that there are probabily somethings that will definetly be lost in translation. Even if I write perfect English and you understand perfect English, if that is the case, you will probabily be unable to understand where my words come from. It is cultural.
    Just like a true Communist can never understand English notions of freedom.

    Johnycomelateley,

    Do you condone the cock carouselle?
    If a female you liked, and you considered very important to you, was to start riding it, would you smile at her, or would you try to prevent it?
    Please answer me.

    Adam,
    I am not considering women’s ethics.
    I am considering men’s ethics. What you should do when shit beats at your own door.

    Probabily, that which has little ethic sense is war, in which men kill each other. And yet MEN have actually created an ethic of war.
    Also, the concept of hypergamy and the carouselle, are two different things.
    One is natural and common to every one of those creatures, the other is artificial and typical of sluts, or creatures who were pushed into it.

    The first is the world I live in, the other the hell I dread.

    [Alfonso, wake up, the Matrix has you.]

  • Dr. Illusion

    Some people may not like the message, but Rollo is spot on. Don’t worry about relationships in your teens/early 20s. I speak from experience. I got married at 21, it lasted 6 months. Not that we are talking about marriage here.

    You don’t know what the hell you want at 22, nor where you will be in 10 years. As a side note, whatever you do, don’t have a kid at this age either. Dating is fine, if you need regular sex and don’t have time to play the field because you are so busy with your career/education. But don’t let her become your focus or your world. Don’t let her hold you back.

    When you are a little older, and know what you want, it’s a different story. But still, don’t bloody get married. Every time I read a game blogger preach against marriage, everyone jumps in to defend it. Well, not everyone, but you get my point.

    It’s not that we are telling you not to make a lifelong commitment. Go for it. Women are nice to have around and it’s hard to play the field forever. But don’t sign a legal contract. The end.

    I say these things from experience. I’ve been married. I’ve had my poor wittle heart broken twice in my younger years. Fuck that noise.

    Now I’m 26, have a very nice house, acres of property, a grear career, a 6 figure income. And I can pull hotter 18 yr olds now than when I was 18. You don’t have to lock down a good young girl when you are young. Why would you want to be locked down with a girl anywhere near your age? That means when you’re 40, she will be 40. Ugh. That doesn’t bear thinking about.

    I’ve been in a LTR for over a year. She lives with me. She just turned 20, shes about an 8.5, she’s feminine, and she submits. She takes care of the house, cleans, cooks, etc. I get a massage and sex every night before bed. Could I have achieved this as a struggling 22 yr old in a shitty apartment? I doubt it. Gotten laid ? Sure. I could and did.

    Will I marry this girl? Hell no. I’ll next her ass in a second if she slips and start back with another 18 yr old. And she knows this. So she stays straight.

    You will have more options than you know what to do with if you spend your early years building your own value. Stay in shape, focus on career and bettering yourself. There is no reason to LTR a young girl when you are young. There are new generations coming up every year. Just my thoughts.

  • MNL

    @Chuck Hammer…

    I would say your 20s should be a time when you’re building a life and a family with a compatible woman.

    You’re absolutely 100% correct. And I wish it were still that way. But then the sexual revolution hit and women became empoweredⓇ–or rather, society began to grant them their own sexual, feral pursuit under the guise of freedom and empowermentⓇ.

    Game is appropriately named because much of its exploitative aspect is the Nash Equilibrium (mathematical game theory term) of this new sexual marketplace (SMP). It’s the male-optimal solution to a sub-optimal situation.

    But even as it’s sub optimal, the situation can’t be reversed. The genie simply can’t be put back into the bottle anymore.

    It’s sad. Moreover, the childishness, the exploitation, the distrust, and the impatience that it encourages; the social institutions that it undermines may contribute to our downfall.

  • Jeremiah

    Rollo,

    I’m curious. From concept to completion how long does, the average, post take you to create?

    Roissy claims that he spends no more than an hour or two on a single post. Not sure if I believe that.

    Not trying to be hater. My disbelief comes from the fact that his blog contains exceptional writing.

    [Kind of depends on the topic. You have to take into consideration that I've been contemplating and writing about what I do for over a decade at SoSuave, so most of my ideas and observations have been evolving over that time. It's much easier to write about topics I already have a good grasp of, so in that case I may spend an hour or two on a post refining an idea. It takes a bit longer when I'm covering new ground or some current event needs to be addressed. Then the flow hits me with ideas as I write. I keep a log of about a dozen unfinished drafts and come back to them as I consider the topic a bit more when I don't feel they're ready for publishing. I'd say 2-4 hours of mulling it over and about 1-2 to write is about average for me.]

  • David

    Dr. Illusion,
    Why did you allow your girlfriend to move into YOUR house? Are you aware that she could claim domestic violence, get a TRO, and stop you from entering your own home? From what I have read on the manosphere ( MRA part of the manosphere at least), it doens’t matter if her name is not on the property deed or lease.

  • Adam

    Afonso — TL;DR

    I hope one day you’ll find a girl who loves you for your honorable ethics and your blazing desire for romance.

  • Dr. Illusion

    @David

    Come on, my friend. You should not read too much MRA. I’m an electrician/instrument tech/instrument fitter/electrical engineer. I play with everything from 24v to 14,000v of electricity every day. I could die tonight at work if a mechanical linkage in a piece of 5kv switchgear sticks on me.

    Yes, women do royally fuck men over sometimes. But be serious.

    I let her move in because I work a lot and I find it convenient to never have to cook/clean/do laundry. As I have said, she is entirely submissive and perfectly happy with our arrangement. If that changes I’ll bounce her ass. Anyone with tight game can spot it if there’s something going on with their girl.

    Do you drive a car? Ever get in an airplane? The chances of you dying in a crash are higher than a chick pulling that crap on you, if you keep your game tight. You can’t love your life in fear.

  • Apollo

    @Afonso Henriques

    It’s been mentioned by at least two other commentors already, but I think it bears repeating because you don’t seem to have paid attention. Regarding whether women are going to ride the carosel or not… It’s not up to you. Again with feeling… ITS NOT UP TO YOU!! You can’t control it. If women want to ride, they’re going to ride. Feminist society encourages and supports this behavior, and is hard at work to remove any remaning impediments in the way of this lifestyle choice. You’re not going to be standing in the way of that, no matter how much you may want to.

    You don’t have to like it, you just have to deal with it, and you’ll deal with it much better if you don’t get all bent out of shape that women are making choices that you personally don’t agree with.

    You’d also do well to learn the difference between advocating certain behavior and explaining the existence of certain behavior.

  • Dr. Illusion

    I believe that Alfonso, Apollo, and several others are talking at cross purposes due to a small misunderstanding on Alfonsos part.

    The advice given was, if the girl wants to ride the carousel, do so. When her SMP plumets around 30, she’ll be regretting what she should have had and looking you up on facebook. I’m paraphrasing, of course.

    He seems to have taken this advice as saying: Wait around till she’s done riding and marry her. That is not correct. Nor are we saying you have to wait and marry a washed up whore, which Alfonso seemed to imply.

    What is being said is this: Don’t lock yourself down in your young years. Fuck different girls, whatever, just focus on you. Focus on your career. Focus on your education. Not on keeping some bitch happy. Then, when your SMP is way up in your late 20′s, early 30′s, then have the LTR you so desire with a top notch 20 yr old that will look great on your arm.

    You do not need to get a “good girl” early or die alone. That’s crazy talk. Amass wealth, gain value, hit the gym, learn to dress well. Then you can get the “good girl” you want. Even if she’s 10 years younger. You haven’t missed out on shit.

    I cannot say this enough: You do not want to be saddled with a woman your own age. You don’t. Please listen. Men age better. If you take care of yourself, you will look even better at 30. I’m 26 and I’ve never looked better. When you are 35 and looking like a 23 yr old, do you want to wake up every morning beside a 35 yr old that looks 35? When you could be fucking a girl with a tight young body instead? Please heed this advice.

  • gunnar

    @Jeremiah

    Both of these guys have probably written hundreds of posts. I don’t think 1 to 2 hours sounds completely unrealistic, at least for Heartiste. Rollo’s posts seem a tad more polished.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Adam,

    Thank you.
    Actually, in my specific case, although I am simply below my onenitis in the sexual market vallue, I have noticed that she admires me for those reasons. And for being cruel to women we both see as filthy whores.
    In this day and age I was enchanted by this attitude of her, I simply couldn’t amass the crytical mass of raw Sexual Market Vallue (she has said more than once that she cannot take me seriously):
    One of my biggest handicaps while reaching for her is that I am simply not the type of men that would make her friends *jealous*.

    Apollo,

    I have a 20 year old female cousin who I heard was bound to go to Italy to “study” for a year.
    I asked her “M…, the rumor I heard about you is ture?” she answered rather lightly “it must be”. I said “okay then…. is that what you’re worth?”

    And I started to ignore her, give her the cold shoulder and treat her like the soon-to-be prostitute that she was going to become.
    She’s not going now. She felt that there is consequences for their actions.

    I don’t care for all those sluts riding the carouselle, I even want to capitalise it.
    But for those girls that disearve my respect, as girls, I don’t want it to be their fate.

    Simply put, I am advocating that man should make girls feel, know, and understand, that their actions have consequences. So, if a “good girl” I like starts behaving badly, she will pay for it. I will not condone some things. And if a girl lowers her vallue in front of me, she will take the consequences of it.

    I am not denying the existance of the carouselle, nor am I making it my life mission to “fight” the carouselle. I simply will not allow a girl I like to ride it and treat her in the same manner, as if she didn’t. And I loathe the man who allow the girls they like, or over which they have a substancial influence, to ride it.
    Actually, now that I think about it, this is probabily the main reason why I don’t like gay men.

    Dr Illusion,

    You give great advice. I just want to clarify one thing:

    “The advice given was, if the girl wants to ride the carousel, do so.”

    Exactly. That is what turned me off and generated my response. I think that if she is a low vallue girl (I’m not talking about beauty, I am talking about her personality), then you will have to let her go.
    But, if she is high vallue (again, personality), I think that a man should understand what lies ahead and how powerless he will be to prevent it and thus, the only dignified thing he can do is try to fight it by not showing any mercy in condoning the girl and fucking her head up.
    Shame her. Make her feel that she’s a useless whore after her “first” (lol) one night stand. even before she has it.

    That’s just it. I saw a recent statistic later, 80% of the murders in my country are crimes of passion, or crimes of honour.
    And it is all about payback about a girl gonne astray, a cheating man, or, when between men, men who disrespected agreements with other men, or men who took advantage of another men’s females (wife, daughter, girlfriend, whatever).

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Paging Mark Minter, Mark Minter please report to this comment thread, thank you.

  • Dr. Illusion

    @Alfonso

    Sir, I respect what you are saying and agree with you entirely. I have no respect for a woman who jumps on the carousel. I am very outspoken about my views on sluts. I made it very clear to my LTR (she had just turned 19 when we got together) that I consider her a slut. She had been with 3 men before me. I told her the reason she could never expect a ring from me was because she fucked worthless assholes instead of saving herself for me (meaning waited for a man of value).

    You want to shame sluts? More power to you. I certainly don’t condone being a slut. I shame sluts on a regular basis. If every man and woman shamed sluts, we could fix this whole broken system in no time.

    But if it is a womans desire to jump on the carousel, she is already lost. That means she wants to be a slut. Meaning she is already a slut mentally. No one here is saying you should cheer her on. The only time I pretend being a slut is ok is when I am helping a girl rationalize what she is about to do (which would be go ass up on my bed).

    By all means, carry on shaming sluts. Especially is they are friends or family members. But if it’s a girl you wanna bang…a little tact is called for, my friend.

    I’m not disagreeing with you. Sluts are sluts. They are only good for one thing. The only point everyone was making was thag short of chaining them up, you can’t stop a girl from taking the cock ride if that’s what she wants. Let her go, write her off, and never speak to her again unless it’s for a bang. The end.

    Best of luck to you, sir. Keep shaming those whores.

  • taterearl

    In the mind of a woman…is it even possible for a man to shame them? Women try to shame other women and that doesn’t seem to change their behavior. Since they have their ways of rationalizing any behavior…I figure the only shame they get is if they feel shame. Sluts will slut even if you tell her every possible bad consequences to their actions.

    It might be best to concentrate your energy into other things than fruitless efforts.

  • Dr. Illusion

    Sluts can be shamed. My LTR was still a bit retarded when we got together. She is originally from about 300 miles away, moved to my are right before I met her. The 2nd month we were together, she went back to her hometown to visit. She txted me half drunk and said she was at a bar with her two single, slutty friends.

    I told her thag I hoped she had a good time. I didn’t answer any texts or calls after that. She was supposed to be home a couple days later. She showed up the next morning crying her eyes out thinking I was nexting her.

    She then cut off all contact with her slut friends, deleted her facebook, and has not even mentioned a girls night.

    Women cannot shame a slut. Because she has plenty of beta orbiters and whatnot who will put her on a pedestal and boost her ego. An Alpha can make her feel like slitting her wrists of it will just erase her past and let her have value to a real man. Instead of just banging a slut, show her what she could have if she wasn’t a slut…then show her why she can’t have it. If you want to reform them, that is. I prefer to just fuck them.

    In my opinion, any woman who got her cherry popped as a teenager, by anyone but her husband, is a slut. The only reason I keel my LTR around is sex and housework. But she will be 21 soon. Too old for me. And I will bounce that snowflake.

    Sluts can only be reformed if you make them realize what they are losing out on. The only way to keep a girl from becoming a slut is to pop that cherry, Alpha up like crazy, and LTR her for lifr.

    I have popped 5 cherries. I gave them all engagement rings. I married one of them. None of the virgins I took ever cheated on me. They never left me. I got bored and left them. Buy only a high value man can make that difference. This could be a suitor, or it could be their father. But it comes down to a ppwerful male force in their life.

  • Dr. Illusion

    I apologize for the misspellings and grammar errors in my previous comment. I just got off a 14 hour night shift and I am commenting from a cellular phone. I actually have a degree in English and am very ashamed of murdering the Kings Language.

  • bob

    “It’s been mentioned by at least two other commentors already, but I think it bears repeating because you don’t seem to have paid attention. Regarding whether women are going to ride the carosel or not… It’s not up to you. Again with feeling… ITS NOT UP TO YOU!! You can’t control it. If women want to ride, they’re going to ride. Feminist society encourages and supports this behavior, and is hard at work to remove any remaning impediments in the way of this lifestyle choice. You’re not going to be standing in the way of that, no matter how much you may want to.”

    Just like feminists encourage to ride the carousel, a healthy society could encourage girls NOT to ride it. It IS in fact up to society (to men, really) to make it stop. It is entirely up to us. Social shame used to be the norm for divorced women, I don’t see why we couldn’t do the same for sluts.

    Of course it’s a damn long way from here, because God knows we’re deep in shit. But things will change in the long run. And that’s what this blog, even the manosphere, is for. Game teaches you not to be spectator with women. Breaking news: this applies for EVERYTHING in life.

    No decent man would ever be stuck in the hedonistic “fuck them all” state of mind for more than a couple years, 5 at most. Because as men, we aspire for more, not for the same thing, especially when “the same thing” is a species heavily shallow.

    I think most of the “game” theory is down now. You’ve got all the materials you want. The manosphere will have to evolve to something even bigger. Follow what RSDTyler is doing: he’s now focusing on self-development. Truth is, game is self-development. It’s the first layer of awareness, awareness as a man, as a social being. But it’s only the first step of a very long journey. Life’s fucking big, and it’s not a surprise to see that red-pilled guys loose most of their interest in girls (take away their vaginas and they are retarded boys, sad but true).

    Alfonso, while being still heavily on the blue side of the pill, tends to that bigger part of life already. Unfortunately, he’ll have to go through that first layer at some point, because it’s still heavily holding him back. Clearly, when reading him, you feel that deep and complete happiness is a long way from his reach. I feel a lot of anxiety in his posts. He’ll gradually learn that life isn’t lived through other people’s eyes, and then realise that this self-awareness will attract all the chicks he ever needs. He’ll form a strong social circle, have a strong influence, and then, social shame can take place.

    That’s what any normal man would do. Bring back order. But I feel like the manosphere is a loooong way from that unfortunately. There is still too many arguments on futile stuff. But I guess that’s because the base of red-pill aware men is not big enough yet. Great stuff is ahead though, can’t wait to rebuild this shit together. Cheers for the french manosphere, where we’re doing pedagogy as well.

  • walawala

    Totally agree. I think the shift in popular media towards appealing to women has made the thrust of tv shows and movies, music etc “teach” or condition men that in order to get their girl they have to be sensitive to women’s needs—check out the “Joey” character who is clearly an alpha dog but is portrayed as shallow vs Beta Chandler or Ross who are portrayed as the angry beta and the beta suffering from One-itis respectively.

    Don Draper is portrayed as a kind of anachronism, a joke. Sean Connery as Bond is a joke while the new Daniel Craig Bond has a female boss and is not shagging as much as he did in the early films.

    So it takes conscious effort to unplug.

    There is a “fear” of unplugging because your friends—mine did anyway—always try to put you down with “Aren’t you afraid of being alone?” type questions when I tell them about all the pussy I’ve been banging lately.

    It’s their projection: misery loves company.

    But when you practice, you get better. When you get better, your confidence goes up and you stop becoming income dependent. you’re more selective.

    Right now, I’m banging two hot girls in two different cities and constantly gaming more—just to practice and keep my skills up.

    I’m not 100% successful, but my success rate has increased dramatically since I “unplugged”>

    This case study was me.

    It’s not impossible but it takes willpower and a true desire to see positive change.

    A few successes can set a rAFC back to his one-itis days.

  • Irminsul

    Rollo, how dou you break up with an LTR you live with? To me it seems impossible. The only time I feel I’m strong enough is when we have a bad fight, I tell her I want to break up and I feel content with it for maybe 5-10 minutes. But she starts to cry and asks me please not to leave her and everything feels so sad. It always ends with me explaining that “no, i didn’t mean it that way, I want to be with you”.

    The problem is that while this LTR clearly is not what I want in the long run, I do love her, and above all I do CARE about her, and she can at some times be a very good girlfriend. But she’s just not my type and I can’t honestly invest myself fully in a future of this relationship. Yet I can’t pull it together to leave her. It’s a pain inside of me every day and I feel my whole life is a lie, I’m faking everything. I’m 26 and in college. My girlfriend is a few years younger and has already graduated and started working as a social worker. I need to get my life together and leave but I’m not strong enough. I don’t know what to do.

  • Dr. Illusion

    @irminsul

    I know how you feel. But you just have to detatch. This is your life. You deserve to be happy. You need to put your own life/self-interest first. That’s all there is to it. Just do what needs to be done.

    We are men. If we can march off to war, if we can bust ass for most of our lives to make money, if we can build everything we have built….we can bounce a snowflake. You are a man. Do what needs to be done. You don’t have to enjoy it. Just do it.

  • Chuck Hammer

    Irminsul
    The problem is that while this LTR clearly is not what I want in the long run, I do love her, and above all I do CARE about her, and she can at some times be a very good girlfriend. But she’s just not my type and I can’t honestly invest myself fully in a future of this relationship. Yet I can’t pull it together to leave her. It’s a pain inside of me every day and I feel my whole life is a lie, I’m faking everything. I’m 26 and in college. My girlfriend is a few years younger and has already graduated and started working as a social worker. I need to get my life together and leave but I’m not strong enough. I don’t know what to do.

    Message from your future:

    You’re 40 years old, married to your LTR for 10 years. She despises you as she knows you never loved her but were so weak you married her anyway. You despise yourself as you traded the potential for real happiness for a certainty of tepid familiarity. This knowledge eats at you every day, affecting everything you do. The memories of the open possibilities of your youth taunt you as you sink into bitterness and apathy.

    Your choice.

    Here’s some practical advice. You can’t summon the moral courage to make her leave so you must leave. Create an exogenous event. Look for a job in another city. Don’t tell her. When the time comes, just go.

  • Pedro

    Afonso, I fuck 7’s sometimes (fucking a new 7 is better than fucking an 8 fuck buddy). I also fuck 8’s and 9’s. You talk all this bullshit and think all women are whores, except the princess that you want to marry. But she didn’t even blow you. Maybe it was your sweetheart that was riding me yesterday.

    First of all, models don’t look like 6’s and they don’t need a shower to become an 8. Normal people shower, which is common sense in a non third world country.

    You sure talk a lot of shit and assume a lot of superiority for a 21 year old guy. Looking for a dream girl oneitis and then saying you are even considering calling an escort or two, because you have the money. That is true quality and true love lol.

    Bringing up money in a little conversation like this is typical spoiled brat attitude. Guess what: I have the money too and I earned it myself.
    29 years old is not really an “older” guy. 19 year old hot chicks fuck 35 and 40 year olds regularly. And I’m not talking about American or British sluts, I’m talking about Portuguese “quality” girls. These older guys have “charm” and “confidence”. What it comes down to is that they don’t give a shit about the 20 year old pussy because they have been playing this game for two decades.

    When I got into the game, this social science was much more primitive.

    You have all these tools available to you and you are still white knighting are rationalizing you chode behavior. That’s what happens with these MRA mixed with game blogs… Keyboard jockeys that have less than a 100 approaches under their belt talking like specialists.

    With my other comment I wrote more than 600 word for a guy that has oneitis and thinks is so cool… That sure goes against the “don’t feed the trolls” rule. You are overthinking this shit man! Just go to the next hot chick. It will make it easier to get your oneitis. Maybe you orbit her for two months or a year, but you will wake up eventually.

    You can fuck those escorts, it will be a step in the right direction. At least you will feel like a filthy shit when you fuck a whore thinking about your oneitis. It will bring you to the real world and maybe you humble up a little and look at women for what they really are without putting that special one on a crazy pedestal.

  • Jonathon Factory

    I’ve perused the comments and no one seems to have mentioned this yet. For those still hell-bent on an LTR in their 20′s,

    “LTR’s are quite possible and rewarding when hypergamy’s been satisfied.” When a female doesn’t think she could ever do any better than the guy she’s with, she’ll love him like no other….until he stops acting like he did when she fell for him, of course.

    Whew. More of a debate than I’d expect on this topic. I’m a firm believer no debate should last more than 15 minutes. After that, it should be clear no one’s mind is going to change and an agreement to disagree should be accepted.

    This debate is on hour number four. At a certain point in time, you need to NEXT an AFC. They can’t all be saved.

    Alfonso is 22 and isn’t interested in enlightenment. He’s interested in an argument and feeling “right.” The time has come to tell him “You know what? You’re right. Good luck with that. NEXT,” and get back to those that may have questions and be willing to listen to suggestions. In time, when his experiences begin to look eerily similar to what’s been written here, he might be more interested in this post.

    Until then, it’s like trying to explain to your 19 yr. old that the neck tattoo and ear gauges might not be the best body modification options for a finance / econ major. Sometimes the kids are just going to have to find out the hard way.

  • immoralgables

    @Pedro

    Nice job. Alfnonso Henrique’s shtick was getting old. AFC white-knight betafied chode trying to talk down to everyone.

    Comes here for advice but won’t listen and acts superior.

    What a waste of fucking sperm.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Dr Illusion,

    About this comment:
    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/case-study-adams-lament/#comment-11349

    kudos to you. I agree with you completeley.

    I am not saying for men who live now to go all beta and believe in pedestals, as some people have implied.

    But I can’t help notice that sometimes in this game thing and in girl relating things, it is the self respect of men that is on the line.

    Girls only do what men allows them to. (female vote, for instance, feminism, etc.) (there’s nothing a girl can do that men can prevent them for doing, just ask the taliban.)

  • Matt Hudson (@matt_s_h)

    I can relate to a few of the things Adam mentioned and after growing so much since can see the advice in this post is pure gold.

    Society/social programming shoves so much trash about LTR’s down people’s throats from an early age that this sentence sums it up perfectly:

    “You MUST unlearn the idea that an LTR is the key to life’s happiness; it is not.”

  • Afonso Henriques

    Bob,

    “Just like feminists encourage to ride the carousel, a healthy society could encourage girls NOT to ride it. It IS in fact up to society (to men, really) to make it stop. It is entirely up to us. Social shame used to be the norm for divorced women, I don’t see why we couldn’t do the same for sluts.”

    Exactly, I know this involves a little of nationalism or patriotism or another ism I can’t remember but men *can* and *must* take control of the society.

    I know this is easily said than done but it is the truth nonetheless.

    So, there is now a generation of men whithout any ambition in defending their own people. And then they say that *I have no dreams* as if this society we live in was a dream of any sort.
    Mer are getting low. We are under attack. Women feel this and are sometimes, what could have been a good girl is pushed to the carouselle because she cannot attain a good man. She looks around, and the quality of men is week, she has no alpha in her life… so, why not go slut like sex and the city told me to? – she thinks.

    It’s futile to think we can change society.
    But it is indeed gay if we don’t atempt to prevent the carouselle for those girls who are “dignified” (for lack of better term). A man whose greater ambition in life is a whore (or a harem of whores to be shared by the community) is a man with little ambition to me.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    It is as equally unhealthy to convince oneself that self-repressions are virtues as it is to think that unfettered indulgences are freedoms. There is a balance.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Pedro,

    I understand you are somewhat pissed at me. “WTF? I’m better than this guy and he doesn’t consider me cool?” Seems to be the way you think.

    Please, if my comments had not been so exageratedly long, I’d advise you to read them again. I am not a troll nor am I here to annoy you.

    I came here to protest against something rollo wrote and “demand” some explanation. It already happened. All the rest is just personal background hidden under the annonimity of the net and clarifications or readjustment of miss comprehensions.

    Also, please, don’t bother ranting like that again. If you have something to say, please make a major point I can adress. It is good that you have a fullfilling life.

    “29 years old is not really an “older” guy. 19 year old hot chicks fuck 35 and 40 year olds regularly. And I’m not talking about American or British sluts, I’m talking about Portuguese “quality” girls.”

    But, it is statements like this that make me see that your quality is not the same quality I look for. We have different vallues and thus want different things for life.
    To me, any girl who fucks other men (in the plural) regularly, don’t matter how hot and interesting, cannot be a QUALITY girl. She’s just a washed up whore who has little self respect and that will shit on you if any one wages a shiny object at her.

    About you fucking my oneitis, where did it happen? Lisbon?
    Sorry, maybe if you tell me more about your method, you can scare me into believing you could fuck her, but, for what I read so far, I’d even challenge you and give you 100€ if you fuck her.

    Also, stop pretending that I am bitching about women. All my comments here are not about women as much as they are about the proper attitude of men. Real men.

    ——————————————————————–

    From what you wrote so far, I think I can see your type. You’re a well intended fellow who just wants to leave helpful advice. But from what you wrote about your life, and what I glanced in relation to your vallues, I think you take into consideration other people’s ideas more than I do. And that’s not bad. Now, look, here, I have enjoyed the support of some really decent alphas (or they pretend very well, I dunno it’s the internet after all) telling me that my idea is the right one, despite the unpleasent situation in which my life stands in the moment.
    You, on the other hand, got the support of that Mexican clown that spends hours commenting on Roissy without ever making a comment that showed any competence. He’s like 15 and watching MTV is what he considers entretainment.
    So, don’t hate. And make a point I can adress if you want to comment.

    Best regards

  • dean

    Question for Rollo,

    What about men who are 30 + and are interested in a monogamous LTR? Say you are 35-45 and you meet a 28-35 year old woman. You know that she has been banging alphas for the last 18 to 15 years. What do you do? Do you not form a relationship with her because she has indulged herself in her youth? If you do that, what woman these days could you ever get serious with?

    It seems to me men have to expect and accept (as shitty as it is) that women in a sexually free society will fuck lots of dudes. Many of these women will grow up though and make decent to good wives and mothers. These are basically the only women available unless you are willing to travel to the four corners of the earth looking for low mileage women or you can find some young girl and lock her in. Yes, I know that is possible but it is outside the capability of most men.

    So, what to do? This is a question I wrestle with alot. What should be my moral evaluation of 27+ women who I know have indulged in the promiscuity of the modern era?

  • Afonso Henriques

    Honestly Rollo, I don’t understand this last enigmatic comment of yours.
    If it was for me, I don’t know why you think I see self repression as virtue.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    No, but white knights such as yourself tend to make their necessity a virtue. Your ‘quality woman’ is a convenient idealization that masks your inexperience with women. I read this all the time, “I’m not inexperienced, I’m selective.”

    I would advise you the same I would Adam, you need to experience more women before you know what “quality” even means. When we meet a 40 year old virgin man, we don’t think “wow, he’s certainly dedicated to finding a quality, virginic and pure woman” no, we think, “damn, what’s wrong with this guy?” We think this because sex is something a man experiences in his life that should be part of his human experience.

    Should we hold that man’s advice about women in high regard? No, because he doesn’t have the depth of experience to be credible. Maturity is derived from experience, and sometimes those experiences clash with conviction. Your indignation is not my moral crisis.

    The vast majority of what I relate on this blog was derived from experiencing a wide variety of women in my past. The success of my 16 year marriage is directly attributable to those experiences as well.

  • Dr. Illusion

    @Dean

    You do not have to settle, sir. If you think she is a slut, don’t consider commiting to her (lifelong). Some men think over 10 guys makes a slut, some think 15, some think 20.

    You know how you feel. You know what you find acceptable and not acceptable. Trust your own instincts. If Rollo tells you “It’s ok, marry her” or whatever (I know he wouldn’t, just an example) and you married her….would your life be any happier cause Rollo said so? No. Only you can navigate your own morals and ethics.

  • dean

    If Rollo tells you “It’s ok, marry her” or whatever (I know he wouldn’t, just an example) and you married her….would your life be any happier cause Rollo said so?

    I’m not abdicating my judgment to Rollo. I am just asking his opinion for evaluation and judgement. He has good insights. I think it is an interesting subject.

    Consider this. Game has been explicitly popularized since 2005 with Straus’ book. But even before then, Ross Jeffries was popular enough. I wonder how many women have been seduced with his “incredible woman” pattern or his “natural woman” pattern? At this point, I would say that every woman 35 and down in North America has been seduced by someone using Game of one variety or another. Women are now used to the simulated alpha male psychology.

    So given that, most women (83%) get married by the age of 35. So if you are an older dude and you want a wife or a serious ltr, you are going to be selecting from women who have been fucked by many alphas. Most women at that age probably have at least 50 “notches”. Some up to 150. Try to find a woman with less than 20 by the age of 30. Good luck.

    So what do you do? If you want a ltr that is. I know many here don’t but some do. Do you “forgive them their sins”? Do you bail them out and marry them when you know that they would have ignored you when you were an afc 10 -15 years ago? I think these are legitimate questions.

  • Dr. Illusion

    These are indeed legitimate questions. May I ask how old you are? When my parents got divorced, my father was 42. My mother left him to party and live the life. In no time at all I was trying to sleep on school nights listening to 20-25 yr old women scream his name. I was 14. This may have had an effect on me. Lol.

    Wanting to settle down is understandable. I know I don’t like getting off a 12 hour shift and having to hunt split tail just to empty my sack.

    Is there any reason you cannot find a woman in her 20′s who hasn’t been fucked by a stadium full of men yet?

    My best advice would be to go to church and find a divorced woman who wants a provider and has been with less than ten men. Not perfect advice, but I have never been in your situation. Best of luck to you, friend.

  • Of LTRs and Slut Shaming | Illusion of Sanity

    [...] over at Rational Male about Long Term Relationships and Slut Shaming. Rollo wrote a good artice about a young man who came to him for advice. I certainly recommend reading the entire artice, so I [...]

  • Apollo

    @bob

    Just like feminists encourage to ride the carousel, a healthy society could encourage girls NOT to ride it. It IS in fact up to society (to men, really) to make it stop. It is entirely up to us. Social shame used to be the norm for divorced women, I don’t see why we couldn’t do the same for sluts.

    Yes, a healthy society would encourage girls not to ride the carousel. And yes it is up to society to enforce the values it finds appropriate. And shame is an effective way of doing this. Here’s the problem though – most people in this society don’t agree with your (and my) view on what values are appropriate. Thats especially true of those with the most influence over what other people think, namely the MSM, politicians, educators and academics. Those guys actually have very high levels of incentive to maintain the status quo. And they are doing a splendid job – try to shame a slut these days and the response is world wide slut pride marches.

    Do you have a workable plan to counteract their influence and change societies values to your own? I sure don’t. And without such a plan this discussion is largely academic, any angst is wasted, and the only reasonable path is to deal with the situation as it is in the best way you can.

  • Dr. Illusion

    @Apollo

    In all honesty, I see no reason to change anything. Red Pill Men pretty much have it made these days. For those unfortunate men.who took the Red Pill too late…that sucks. They got married, got left and got raped in court. My heart truly does bleed for them.

    But a man who discovers the Red Pill in his youth? He’s going to have unlimited sluts at his disposal, nail down a LTR with a woman if he so chooses, and navigate these murky waters like a champ. So, let it burn.

    Our duty, in my opinion, is to unplug as many men as possible. Don’t try to change the system, just take advantage of it.

  • Apollo

    @Dr Illusion

    Change it, don’t change it, I think the question is moot. The only practical option that I see is to make the best of the circumstances we find ourselves in.

    It’s an interesting intellectual exercise to ponder upon though. Knowing what I know now, would I want things to go back to the way they once were?

  • Afonso Henriques

    Rollo, about your comment

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/case-study-adams-lament/#comment-11386

    I agree with you more than you believe, probabily.

    You say my pursuit for quality women is a way for me to mask my inexperience, or to excuse myself from getting more expirience.

    I understand the logic. I want to say that I do not agree but I see how dangerous it gets. I know I need more experience, and I get fucked up with myself for not approaching, or doing ridiculous approaches, but its a challenge I must face. But what I cannot do is to accept real rare quality girls walk through my life and do nothing.

    It really is complicated.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Dean, I’d advise you to decide what you want.

    If you’re want for an ltr with this one specific girl is so overwhelimg that you can forget her past “notches”, than go the ltr route.

    However, don’t forget what beast you’re dealing with.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Apollo,

    “most people in this society don’t agree with your (and my) view on what values are appropriate. Thats especially true of those with the most influence over what other people think, namely the MSM, politicians, educators and academics. Those guys actually have very high levels of incentive to maintain the status quo. And they are doing a splendid job – try to shame a slut these days and the response is world wide slut pride marches.”

    So, you’re telling us, a la gbfm style, that you’re okay with Jews declaring open season over your ass and the ass of the women precious to you?
    … just because most people don’t agree with you… MAN, HOW I HATE DEMOCRACY. This current generation of Americans shouldn’t really live in a democracy.

    “Do you have a workable plan to counteract their influence and change societies values to your own? I sure don’t. And without such a plan this discussion is largely academic, any angst is wasted, and the only reasonable path is to deal with the situation as it is in the best way you can.”

    I have. Let’s use our influence, no matter how small – not to fight directly the ones who have power and want the “status quo” – but to create little pockets where we, as men, have the control, and are free to live according to our vallues.

    It used to be called Home.
    More in America, than in other places.
    Sad.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Alfonso, I think I’ve enumerated the personal/professional reasons for a man needing to put off monogamy until he’s begun to actualize for himself what his SMV means in the long term for women.

    What I don’t think you’re grasping is the necessity for a man to experience a variety of women, and how that relates to his overall mastery of women and himself, but also how essential it is for him to truly judge a woman’s character if and when he is ready to become monogamous.

    As you’re probably aware, most men are Betas and by that definition do not have access to the variety of women which would provide him with this needed experience. For the greater part, they suffer from a Scarcity Mentality due to this, thus any woman who comes along represents an end to his loneliness/sexlessness and most time’s he’ll imbue her with some divine destiny association since sexual abundance is so foreign an idea to him.

    However, the man who experiences the abundance of multiple intimate partners progressively develops his capacity to see past women’s beauty, his own sexual necessitousness, and become a better judge of women’s character after having moved beyond this beta desperation of sexual scarcity.

    Yes, sex is a part of this, but more important is the learning. True amused mastery is directly related to having been with enough women to know how they function, master them and be amused by the whole process. The more dangerous threat to most men (betas) isn’t his participating in the cock carousel, but rather in not being experienced enough with women to ruin his life dedicating it to the first attractive woman he simply lacked the experience to take a pass on.

    Read: Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite

  • Dr. Illusion

    @Rollo

    Damn, son. You nailed that one.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I need to add one more thing here, and this is probably going to be contentious. I don’t believe men should feel they owe women much of anything, but you OWE it to your “Quality Woman” to have had enough experience with women to genuinely appreciate and admire her for exceptionality.

    When you lack that experience, and then praise your idealized woman for being a pearl amongst swine, your disingenuousness is really an insult to her.

  • Hero

    Women love to feel that you have high standards and expectations. It implies that they are high quality because you are with them.

  • Vicomte

    In discussions like these, I can’t help feeling that everyone is, to an extent, just rationalizing their past/current behavior into righteousness.

    It makes it incredibly difficult to discern what is actually best, but I suppose that’s largely subjective, itself.

    Just an observation.

  • nek

    Alfonso,

    You’re describing a world how it “ought” to be, not how it is. And I’ve seen enough to tell you, doing the “be the change in the world you want to see” isn’t going to do the trick. Even Ghandi got shot, and racism is still rampant in both India and South Africa. All Rollo is doing is trying to guide you through the mind field by telling you where the mines actually are, not where you want them to be. And yes, while I see the benefit in reigning in women’s hypergamy, I got a question for you. Are you gonna stop it? Are you gonna effectively control women? My guess is not, so quit wasting your time talking about what “ought” to be. Why are you worrying about putting an old system in place? Even if that could be done in your lifetime (not likely), it would collapse anyways. Didn’t you take physics at all in your lifetime? Remember entrophy? ALL SYSTEMS BREAK DOWN. The dating game itself and life are both microcosims of this, as eventually both break down as well. Understand that life has a lot of futility. Trying to find a “loyal” women is futile. While some are better than others, if a good enough option comes along, she’ll still leave you. She won’t stay with you “out of principle”. That’s projection on your part. Men are principled, women are highly instinctive.

    So you might question how to be “happy” or content in this “futile” existence. Oddly enough, the best places to look are at women and children. Why? Because both do an exceptionally good job at living in the present moment. That’s the trick.

    And yes Alfonso, you’re influence is small, it’s not gonna change anything. Those “little pockets” don’t matter when they’re a part of a bigger pocket. The old adage “Your vote counts” is just that old. Why? It doesn’t. You don’t have any true power unless you can get large groups of men to commit violence on your behalf. It’s like riding your bike to work to make a difference. The rest of humanity isn’t gonna do it in the west. Humanity is self-destructive. Think what people like in spades: Drinking, drug use, promiscuous sex, violence and drama. We’re a ticking time bomb. Just pound some ass bro.

    P.S. Apollo’s post is spot on.

  • Apollo

    @Afonso Henriques

    So, you’re telling us, a la gbfm style, that you’re okay with Jews declaring open season over your ass and the ass of the women precious to you?
    … just because most people don’t agree with you… MAN, HOW I HATE DEMOCRACY. This current generation of Americans shouldn’t really live in a democracy

    What? Jews? …..What? How the Hell did the Jews come up in this…

    No, what I’m saying, again and again, is that the question of how OK I am with all of this is moot. It just IS and we have to deal with it as best we can.

    Your complaining about the carousel makes as much sense as your complaining about democracy. If you have a problem, you either fix it, or you learn to deal with it. Endlessly complaining about something you have no intention or ability to fix just makes you look weak and ineffectual and it pisses people off when they have to hear it.

    Fixing issues such as our current societies values (which result in the carousel) or our troublesome democracy requires massive coordinated action, which I don’t see forthcoming anytime soon. So the remaining option then becomes – deal with it.

    I have. Let’s use our influence, no matter how small – not to fight directly the ones who have power and want the “status quo” – but to create little pockets where we, as men, have the control, and are free to live according to our vallues.
    It used to be called Home.
    More in America, than in other places.
    Sad.

    The fact that you think that THAT is a workable plan says it all really. You’re not fixing anything by doing that, you’re essentially making your own personal choice to live by a different set of values without dealing with the wider society all around you ready to undermine you if your influence slips.

    You don’t have any control at all under those circumstances unless the people you are trying to influence choose to allow you it. Take the case of Adam from this post. What control did he have over “his” woman going to ride the carousel? She didn’t care what he thought of her choice – shaming her wasn’t going to work, especially when there’s lots of other people that will tell her her behavior is A OK. So should Adam accept the reality that many women, including apparently “his” woman will want to ride that carousel and try and find a woman who doesn’t, or should he pointlessly rage about it?

    The carousel is a society wide phenomenon, so you need a society wide response if you want to effectively deal with it. The only way that the small pockets of resistance strategy can work is if you can effectively create an alternate reality where people are heavily invested in remaining inside, like the Amish, or you control through manipulation and coercion like in a cult.

    Or you can just find someone who already shares your values, in which case you’re not really controlling anyone, they are choosing to stay with you because of what they believe or what you offer in comparison. In this circumstance though, you still need to account for and deal with the fact that a bigger more influential society is right there, just outside of your little bubble, ready to give “your” woman all the validation she could ever need if she decides to stray. Pretending that’s not the case, or getting angry about it won’t help.

  • LIGFY – November Savings Time | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

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  • Afonso Henriques

    Rollo,

    “What I don’t think you’re grasping is the necessity for a man to experience a variety of women, and how that relates to his overall mastery of women and himself”

    I completeley agree with you.
    I grasp that. But maybe not as deeply as you.

    ” most men are Betas and by that definition do not have access to the variety of women which would provide him with this needed experience. For the greater part, they suffer from a Scarcity Mentality due to this, thus any woman who comes along represents an end to his loneliness/sexlessness and most time’s he’ll imbue her with some divine destiny association since sexual abundance is so foreign an idea to him.”

    I am a beta. But I am not so mentally beta like that.
    I have scarcity mentality, because I do have scarce opportunities to fuck girls. But it is not that deep because I’ve been passing opportunities to fuck girls who want to fuck me rather often (considering how few I’ve got along with other people in the last two years), because I am with an eye on another girl of higher quality. Indeed, when they make it patently obvious that I can have my way with them, I feel validated, and if there is a bigger prize around the corner, and no easy logistics to bed the girls who want me to fuck them, some kisses and grabs happen, but my interest decreases.

    I do not entertain the idea that a girl will come and end my loneliness/sexiness at all. I have this idea that even if a girl does that, its an hypergamic impulse, and I must struggle (on my own for myself, against myself mainly) to continue high in the hypergamy chain, which is how I think girls see the world. The hypergamy makes them want the better guy they think they can have.

    “However, the man who experiences the abundance of multiple intimate partners progressively develops his capacity to see past women’s beauty, his own sexual necessitousness, and become a better judge of women’s character after having moved beyond this beta desperation of sexual scarcity.”

    I am a beta. I haven’t had a plethora of sex partners. But I truly believe I am the best person I know in what concerns judging women. And I am both demanding (of their personalities) and maleable, for I understand that some life stories make it easy for some girls to be better than others. And I don’t necessarily hate sluts. I have friends I consider sluts which I like. I simply don’t see them as good mates, although some I see as good lays.

    I feel my sexual scarcity, I may be more nervous than I shall in the presence of a stunning girl; however, I don’t entertain the notion that they are perfect angels.

    Indeed, when I met my current oneitis, I was aching for another oneitis I cut contact with because she behaved to me in a manner I considered undignified.
    I had started reading Roissy and it really made sense to me. I had found the light. I was the more red pill aware I could. I had lost all hope that women/girls were “good enough for any mildly satisfying relationship other than sex” and I thought that there were no girl who was worth more than a fuck. I wanted just to fuck girls, and they didn’t have to be beautiful. I believed the purpose of women on earth was to drain my balls and that I’d have to conviece them of it without saying it, through game. What made me approach girls (including my oneitis) was the sheer belief that a girl who was noticed by me, was disturbing my manly space and should therefore notice my manly presence (trough game), even if I failed.

    And then, I started hanging with my current oneitis and found, only in personality terms, a girl so spectuacular and so “better” than what I’ve known according to my vallues that STOP.
    What I want to say is that she gave me hope that indeed girls who are worthy of me do exist. And I sucumbed to my insitincts that told me that I needed to “stay in the fight for her”. I know it’s a terrible mindset to have.

    I wanted to stress that I was red pill aware. I “found, only in personality terms, a girl so spectuacular and so “better” than what I’ve known according to my vallues”, who was beautiful, and who *liked me* more than my SMV afforded her to like me.

    All this, combined with some extreme factors, augmented by my betaness and my lack of experience with girls, created in me a deeply ingrained sense of duty, an ethical quest for me to behave in the manner the person I’d like to be would behave, knowing perfectly well that the chances of me getting this girl are like 0.

    Again, terrible mindset to be in. It’s as if I snapped, I’m not telling everything but one thing is my situation, another is how I see the world. I am red pill aware, but I want to use that knowledge to behave in the way I think a dignified man should behave, and that is not what I’ve been doing. This caused me to snap. That’s why I was so offended when you, who I consider a kind of authority, wrote “let your girlfriend fuck other guys”.

    But it’s all been set straight between the two of us, Rollo.

  • Afonso Henriques

    I don’t know if you’re still getting the comments, but still:

    Rollo,

    “I don’t believe men should feel they owe women much of anything, but you OWE it to your “Quality Woman” to have had enough experience with women to genuinely appreciate and admire her for exceptionality.”

    I understand where you come from. And I would agree with you. Hey! Look all those betas with no experience with women fall in love for any each whore that appears in front of them!

    I get it. I understand it. I would usually say you do indeed need experience with women to appreciate and judge a girl.

    However, I think I am a good judge (this can be ridiculous but I don’t think I am the exception, just because I’m special).
    And, if I owe my Quality woman anything, it is – I truly beieve – to amass the crytical SMV to make me a viable hypergamic option (lol).

    “When you lack that experience, and then praise your idealized woman for being a pearl amongst swine, your disingenuousness is really an insult to her.”

    I would agree with you. I really would.
    However… that would amount to me being a clueless beta, and I don’t think I am so clueless.
    And I have judged and compared her to other girls so thoroughly, I’ve tried so desperateley to take her off my mind, and get involved with other girls that… I can’t really say that my assessment of her qualities is bogus and derived of my betaness. Actually, I think it’s pratically alpha.

    Again, I agree with you if you’re talking about most betas and omegas really,
    but I can’t agree if you’re talking about me.

  • Afonso Henriques

    Apollo,

    Everybody knows the Jews are those strange guys who rule the world, aka alpha-than-you-who-despise-you-and-will-fuck-you.
    It is just what came to my mind. Sorry for the bad taste if you found it offensive, but I thought it was “edgy”.

    “If you have a problem, you either fix it, or you learn to deal with it.”

    My moto is, if you have a problem, then deal with it while you try to fix it, untill you fix it.
    Eventually, you can give up and just lead with it. I am trying to fix WHAT can be fixed, only:

    That, if a guy has a girlfriend he likes (and thus, I think, high vallue), he shouldn’t “allow” her to go ride the carouselle. If she *wants to* ride the carouselle, than, she is automatically of “lower quality” and unfixable.

    “The fact that you think that THAT is a workable plan says it all really. You’re not fixing anything by doing that, you’re essentially making your own personal choice to live by a different set of values without dealing with the wider society all around you ready to undermine you if your influence slips.”

    By doing that I don’t mean retreat from society. I mean create an oasis where my rules are to be obeyed. Actually, I think the right kind of girl would find it intensely attractive, if done right.

    “You don’t have any control at all under those circumstances unless the people you are trying to influence choose to allow you it.”

    Once, we’re in the context of women. Reading what you wrote it reached my mind as following:

    “You can only do that if a girl is somewhat invested in you AND she has any self love and Vallue”

    Exactly, I am not talking about whores, or the average girl, who is a whore, I am talking about *Quality Girls*. I am talking girls who are worth marrying me, eventually, even in this day and age (don’t even bother, I know how freakishly that sounds, but when I talk about quality girls, most people think I am talking about escorts or something).

    “What control did he have over “his” woman going to ride the carousel?”

    He was a beta. If he wasn’t so beta as Rollo showed in his writings, I’d advise him to do something crazy or leave it. Something crazy might include physical violence.
    But he was so beta, the girl didn’t really care for him at all. And he was so beta he really, really liked that whore in a romantic way.

    “The carousel is a society wide phenomenon”

    Off my head… the percentage of girls 20-25yo I think ride the carouselle here are, what? 75% of the hot bangable ones? 6~7 and up?
    It is a society wide phenomenon, but there is a non negligeble percentage of women that don’t engange in it.
    And those who engage, have little self respect.

    The difference between us, is that probabily you are a liberal and get pleasure from the believe that girls enjoy riding the carouselle. They don’t. They do it because they can and because they “feel high”, but it goes *against* their natures in many, many ways. The carouselle is more of a disgrace for women than for man. To me, the carouselle is evil.

    “the small pockets of resistance strategy can work is if you can effectively create an alternate reality where people are heavily invested in remaining inside”

    Any girl who has an lt boyfriend and is loyal to him, is a girl who found a man who created those conditions.

    “Or you can just find someone who already shares your values, in which case you’re not really controlling anyone, they are choosing to stay with you because of what they believe or what you offer in comparison. In this circumstance though, you still need to account for and deal with the fact that a bigger more influential society is right there, just outside of your little bubble, ready to give “your” woman all the validation she could ever need if she decides to stray.”

    Exactly.
    And if she likes me and gives me a chance, it is us who will rule the fucking society. Lol I’m tired already.

  • Doc

    “I said if we have sex then we need to be exclusive.”

    Ack… You actually said that??? Are you brain-damaged? At your age you should be saying the exact opposite – heck, I say the exact opposite and I’m more than 2x your age.

    This is desperation to the max… You should be telling her that while you think she’s great, you are too young for “anything serious” that you still need to “experience life and everything it has to offer”. Put it to her that she’s going to have to work it if she wants things to last. That is HER job, not yours.

    Women are by their very nature insecure and suspect that every other women knows more, is better looking, and better in bed than she is, unless you tell her that to you she is wonderful. So your job is NEVER do that since it works against you. Keep your options open, and never put all of your eggs in one basket – have several women on the side-lines working their way through the system, being “vetted”.

    When you are with one woman, always flirt with others – if the woman you’re with makes a deal of it, call her for being jealous and possessive when this is just for “fun” and you’re just “being nice”. Always keep her on the defensive, never let her think she knows the score – if you do, you’re doomed…

    You are 24 – your best times are still ahead of you. Trust me… You should look forward to bedding women who haven’t even been born yet. You have longevity… Never forget that… Don’t saddle yourself with a woman that is going to be old, long before you are hitting your stride. You will be in your prime in another 10 years, and it’ll go for decades – she’s in her prime, and will start that downward slide in another few years. So enjoy her now – but remember, she’s replaceable – it’s your job to keep that forefront in your mind. She’s just passing through… The best is yet to come…

  • Apollo

    @Afonso

    Everybody knows the Jews are those strange guys who rule the world, aka alpha-than-you-who-despise-you-and-will-fuck-you.
    It is just what came to my mind. Sorry for the bad taste if you found it offensive, but I thought it was “edgy”.

    Really? I thought it was the Illuminati who ruled the world. Or the Rand corporation. Or is it the Bilderbergers? The saucer people?

    No, I wasn’t offended by your comment, I just thought it was a non sequitur.

    The difference between us, is that probabily you are a liberal and get pleasure from the believe that girls enjoy riding the carouselle. They don’t. They do it because they can and because they “feel high”, but it goes *against* their natures in many, many ways. The carouselle is more of a disgrace for women than for man. To me, the carouselle is evil.

    No, I’m not a liberal. By most measures I’m conservative, more so than most other people I personally know.

    No I don’t get pleasure from girls riding the carousel. I think it’s a significant contributing factor to the decline of our society. But I also think that I don’t have a whole lot of influence over it. Women are herd creatures and they are reacting, in their own self interested and short sighted way, to the conditions on the ground when choosing to ride the carousel.

    I think your claims about whether girls enjoy riding the carousel and why they do it are pure conjecture, and you’re judging it as evil and a disgrace by completely outdated and outmoded standards of propriety. Before you misunderstand me here though, I’m not saying that your standards are morally wrong, I’m saying that they are too divergent from those of society for them to be accurately representative of reality. And I’m not getting the sense that you realize how great this difference is, and the significance of this fact.

    Times have moved on and yet you’re still expecting others to live by the standards of fifty years ago. Are you not paying attention to the incredible levels of entitlement that western women have these days? Did you not notice all of the traditional social restraints on their behavior have been removed? Have you read any main stream media article on gender issues? Social standards are more or less a majority rules type of thing, and on this you have been outvoted. Women today can get a lot of validation to act in a different way if they decide they don’t like your idea of what a “quality” woman is.

    Or in other words, you and I might agree that the carousel is bad for the future of our society, but enough people in our society have the opposite belief continually reinforced for them that our opinions don’t really matter to anyone but us and the small number of people who agree. Majority rules I’m afraid.

    The actual difference between us is that I’ve realized that changing this is too costly and time consuming for it to be worthwhile for me, and you haven’t.

  • Cliff

    I’ve been like Adam, in terms of thinking a LDR is the same as any other relationship. I’m 30 years old, have many friends both male and female, but I’ve never been ‘with’ a female that lived less than 3 hours away, which basically means I’ve never been with a woman.

    My total experience with the opposite sex is as follows:

    2001 – ‘LDR’ with a girl I met in a Yahoo Chat room who lived 400 miles away

    2002 – I try ONCE to flirt with a girl at a music store but she senses my desperation and bans me

    2003 – I make out with 3 girls and casually flirt with them but one already has a bf, and scare the other two away, one with clinginess, one with a stress related breakdown

    2003-2006 – ‘LDR’ with a girl I met on campus and continued to ‘see’ when I moved back home. She lived 150 mi away and broke up with me after graduating herself

    2007 – Lived for a year with a platonic female friend with a big city until I hasd to return home to care for a sick relative

    2008-present – no attempts to pursue women whatsoever and no attention from them (not surprsing)

    So in my life I’ve experienced:

    2 LDRs over the computer chat rooms
    I’ve been flirtatious with six women (all between age 18-20)
    Made out with 3 (all age 20)
    Been on ‘dates’ with 2 (both age 20)

    At 30, I have an apt, a job, an education I’m in a band, but I’m unable so far to express my sexuality, have no options and havent for many yrs, and have simply found other ways of living my life while I try to figure this all out.

  • ElDuro

    Theres a paradox in this text…
    Everyone in the shame women for ridding the carrousel in their 20s and then you say that the 20s are should be a period of experimentations for both sexes(3rd paragraph)

    Makes no sense…

    [Judging Sluts
    The Slut Paradox]

  • Orange

    Alfonso, you have written a truly honest set of posts here; it is brave to not hide the pain behind bitterness and bravado. Those girls do exist. I was one of them. If I were to point you somewhere it would be to one of those nerdy smart beautiful girls that look like they are begging for a makeover. You can spot beauty without the decoration. When I met my husband at 18 he didn’t have a clue what he was going to do. his ambition isn’t something that I cajoled him into whatsoever, but the fact of having a girl he loved , and who loved him back inspired him, in a way, to find his passion and pursue it as a life mission. I’ve done the opposite of holding him back. now that meant the both of us enduring an LDR for about 5 years out of the 22 that we’ve been together. it was painful, but I never so much as kissed another man. We both turned 40 recently, but as far as he is concerned, he gets to be married to a hot nineteen year old forever.

    Here’s to bravery!

  • Ace Haley

    The point about guys throwing their lives away to settle for the 1st girl who took them seriously really rung a bell.

  • Westcoaster

    Just re-read this today, what a great essay by Rollo. It hits home to me, even at an older age. He’s spot-on on everything he says, trust me youngsers, he just is.

    The comments here also show me just how difficult it is to unplug yourself from The Matrix. I’m surprised at the disagreements with Rollo here. Not that one shouldn’t quesiton or disagree, but personally anyone who is seeking soulmates and LTR’s at 22 needs to seriously re-think things.

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