The Second Set of Books

books

One of the cornerstones of red pill truth is in men coming to terms with what amounts to (in most cases) half a lifetime of feminine conditioning. It’s interesting to consider that there was a time (pre-sexual revolution) when a man wasn’t in someway socialized and acculturated in his upbringing to give deference to the feminine or to become more feminine-identifying. There are plenty of other manosphere bloggers who’ll run down in detail all of the many ways boys are now raised and educated to be what a feminine-primary world would like them to be, but at the heart of it is a presumption that boys should be raised and conditioned to be more like girls; conditioned from their earliest memories to be better providers for what women believe they will eventually want them to be as adult ‘men’.

For men who’ve become aware of this conditioning through some trauma or personal crisis that prompted him to seek answers for his condition, we call this period our blue pill days. I think it’s important to make a distinction about this time – whether or not a man is Alpha or Beta doesn’t necessarily exclude him from the consequences of a blue pill conditioning. That isn’t to say that a more natural Alpha Man can’t see the world in a red pill perspective by his own means, but rather that his feminine-primary upbringing doesn’t necessarily make a man Alpha or Beta.

The Blue Pill Alpha

I’m making this distinction because there is school of thought that being blue pill (unaware of one’s conditioning) necessitates him being more Beta. To be sure, feminine-primary conditioning would raise a boy into a more feminine-pliable man – ready to serve as the good Beta provider when a woman’s SMV declines and she’s less able to compete with her younger sexual competitors.

However, there exist more Alpha Men also conditioned to be servants of the Feminine Imperative. These men make for some of the most self-evincing White Knights you’ll ever meet and are usually the first men to “defend the honor” of the feminine and women for whom they lack a real awareness of. Binary absolutism and an upbringing steeped in feminization makes for a potent sense of self-righteousness. Blue pill Alphas live for the opportunity to defend everything their conditioning has taught them. To the blue pill Alpha all women are victims by default, all women share a common historic suffrage and any man (his sexual competitors) critical of the feminine are simply an opportunity to prove his worth to any woman in earshot who might at all find his zealousness attractive.

The Second Set of Books

On June 15th, 2011, Thomas Ball set himself on fire in front of Cheshire Superior Court in New Hampshire. While I strongly disagree with his decision to self-immolate, I understand his sentiment. In last week’s Possession, Living Tree attempted to call me to the carpet about how a man might come to the conclusion of suicide or murder once he’d become confronted with a total loss of all his personal and emotional investment in life:

But Rollo, you just justified murder as “logical”, by illustrating that insecurity is the prime motivator for this man’s life (and many others, I’d imagine). The decision may have be understandable in an empathetic sense, and he might have seen it as logical at the time, but there is nothing logical about it. You are making extreme beta-ism seem more and more like a mental disorder.

Just for the record, I’d argue that ONEitis, however extreme, is in fact a mental disorder.

I haven’t justified anything, murder or suicide, I’ve simply outlined the deductive process men use when confronting the actualized loss of their most important investment (or perceptually so) in life. They are convinced and conditioned to believe that women are playing by a set of rules and will honor the terms of those rules, only to find that after ego-investing themselves for a lifetime in the correctness and appropriateness of those rules does he discover in cruel and harsh terms that women are playing by another set of rules and wonder at how stupid he could be to have ever believed in the rules he was conditioned to expect everyone would abide by.

Suicide or murder is certainly a deductive and pragmatic end for some men, but by no means is it justified. Thomas Ball, for all of his due diligence in uncovering the ugly processes of the American divorce industry, was far more useful alive than dead in some symbolic suicide. He wasn’t the martyr he probably expected he’d be, he’s just a footnote.

For all of that, Thomas Ball and his last message to humanity serves as an excellent illustration of a man coming to terms with his own conditioning. In his message Ball makes a very important observation about his legal ordeals. He comes to understand that there are two sets of books rather than the one he’d been lead to believe that everyone understood as ‘the rules’ everyone should play by.

The confusion you have with them is you both are using different sets of books. You are using the old First Set of Books- the Constitution, the general laws or statutes and the court ruling sometime call Common Law. They are using the newer Second Set of Books. That is the collection of the policy, procedures and protocols. Once you know what set of books everyone is using, then everything they do looks logical and upright.

Ball was of course making a political statement in his account of going through the legal system and the cruel education he got in the process, but when men transition from their comfortable blue pill perspective into the harsh reality that the red pill represents, the experience is a lot like Ball discovering that the set of books (the set of rules) he’d believed everyone was using wasn’t so. Likewise, men who’ve been conditioned since birth to believe that women were using a common set of rules – a set where certain expectations and mutual exchange were understood – were in fact using their own set. Furthermore these men ‘just didn’t get it’ that they should’ve known all along that women, as well as men’s feminization conditioning, were founded in a second set of books.

In and of itself, this is a difficult lesson for young men to learn and disabuse themselves of before they’ve invested their most productive years into what their blue pill conditioning has convinced them they can expect from life and women. However, when a mature man, who’s based the better part of his life and invested his future into the hope that the first set of books is actually legitimate set is disenfranchised by the second set of books, by the actual set of rules he’s been playing with, that’s when all of the equity he believed he’d established under the first set of books counts for nothing. Literally his life (up to that point) counted for nothing.

When faced with the prospect of rebuilding himself after living so long under false pretenses, after having all he believed he was building turn up to be a lifetime of wasted effort, he’s faced with two real options. Recreate himself or destroy himself. Needless to say suicide statistics among men are a strong indication that the majority of men (Betas) simply don’t have the personal strength to recreate themselves. Thomas Ball didn’t.

There’s usually a lot of disillusionment that comes with making the transition to Red Pill awareness. I’ve written more than a few posts about the stages of grief and acceptance that come along with that transition. Guy’s get upset that what they now see was really there all along, but it’s not so much the harshness of seeing red pill dynamics in women or a feminized society play out with such predictability, it’s the loss of investment that cause the real sense of nihilism. When I wrote Anger Management, the overarching reason most men experienced what they called a righteous anger, wasn’t at how the second set of books had been dictating their lives for so long, but rather it was anger at having invested so much of themselves in the first set of books and losing that very long term investment.

The good news is you can rebuild yourself. A lot gets written about how nihilistic the red pill is, but this is for a lack of understanding that you can recreate yourself for the positive with the knowledge of both sets of rules. One common thread I see come up often on the Red Pill Reddit forum is how Game-awareness has completely destroyed a guy’s world view. I get it, I realize it’s a hard realization, but their depression is only for a lack of realizing that they can become even better in this new understanding than they were in their blue pill ignorance.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Rollo
No comment on my picture selection? I thought it was brilliant.

That guy is looking in the wrong book, you know….

KristopherKristophr
7 years ago

Livingtree2013: “Love cannot be manufactured, or negotiated, or contracted. It is spontaneous, and fleeting, and cannot be captured. I always say, if you knew real love even for an instant, you are one of the lucky few.” You are confusing lust with love. The lust you are talking about is cheap and easy, unless you are a beta loser that cannot get a woman excited. If you are a bata loser, no amount of searching will find you what you describe. Actual love is something a long-time couple has to work at, and work hard at. It requires mutual respect,… Read more »

BC
BC
7 years ago

Different T, regarding the First and Second Sets of Books and how to deal with them, see “Prisoner’s Dilemma”.

Also, given the sea changes in domestic and family law and its enforcement brought about by feminism, are you really questioning whether “reality has fundamentally changed”? Are you really stating that it is all just an “illusion” and anyone who objects is just a “whiny ass baby”?

Are you really that obtuse?

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

“”There’s usually a lot of disillusionment that comes with making the transition to Red Pill awareness. I’ve written more than a few posts about the stages of grief and acceptance that come along with that transition.”” I think also there is “denial”—I didn’t want to believe or couldn’t believe that all the concepts of hypergamy and other game tenants are real. Despite what I have learned about game and all the success I’ve had, my recent “oneitis” shook me at my core. Inner game and addressing the co-dependence that put me in the “nice guy” category in the past emerged… Read more »

D Man Harimat
D Man Harimat
7 years ago

The Red Pill as its called is awesome its a tool that helps us whip women into our fruit barers n slaves!!!!!!THEY LOVE IT

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
7 years ago

Glenn, powerful story your definitely on the right track. My position on the 2nd set of books is that it is predicated on keeping men in an ‘infantalized’ state. I’m not well versed in developmental psychology (haven’t thrashed it out thoroughly enough apart from reading Erikson, so I maybe out of my league here) but my overwhelming observation is that men are stuck in a pathologically arrested stage of ego development. From the ages of 6 to 12 the last thing boys want to do is be with their mother or surrounded by older women but that is exactly what… Read more »

Eris
Eris
7 years ago

@differentT “The Manosphere is considered nihilistic because it is” – is considered this way by whom exactly? The manosphere has undoubtedly helped countless numbers of men emotionally who are suffering, be it in family courts, not able to see their children etc. who have absolutely nowhere to turn. You fling the term “nihilism” around with all the verve of a slightly more widely-read town vicar, holding it up as if it were something that necessarily wreaks destruction on those who come into contact with it. The belief that nothing matters in the grand scheme of things does not make it… Read more »

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

In reality, the idea that nihilism will lead to getting stuck in some little self-consuming hedonistic bubble in preposterous, Correct. It can also lead to some sort of buddhism. Those are the most likely outcomes. furthermore the questions you have repeatedly posed about this and the “first set of books” are clearly little more than loaded questions that show little desire for a real discussion but more an attempt to portray yourself some kind of intellectual. If you think “the first set of books” (and the concepts which they were developed around) are bullshit created for the feminine imperative, your… Read more »

earl
earl
7 years ago

If you want to see the second set of books…or know their rules, just read Rules for Radicals by one of those YKW.

http://www.vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/rules.html

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

@Johnnycomelately

The feminine imperative doesn’t need a massive governmental super structure to further its aims, all it needs is for boys in their developmental stages to be in the sphere of control of women.

Another manifestation of this phenomenon is that it creates males with “daddy issues.” That it is to say, they have never learned to differentiate between legitimate authority and illegitimate authority. This confusion leads to the glorification of “personal liberty” as the prime value in interpersonal relations.

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

I think this says it all

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=250317091796419

Jeremy
7 years ago

Livingtree is literally not worth responding to. She fails to read anything on this blog without projecting her own thoughts onto what people write. Whatever you write in response to her, she misreads its intended meaning into something that matches her ego-invested view of the world. Trying to explain a perspective to her is like trying to melt ice by throwing nearly-freezing water on it. I gave you a chance LT, no longer. Until it becomes clear that you’re actually trying to understand what people are expressing here I will continue to treat you as if you’re just a troll.… Read more »

eris
eris
7 years ago

“Correct. It can also lead to some sort of buddhism. Those are the most likely outcomes.” – empty assertions. Care to back it up with reasoning? “Your only greivance is that you were too stupid disregard them earlier, correct?” – What is this nonsense? No, it is a (since subsided) surprise at their existence, a shift of perspective and a desire to share those experiences with others who have experienced the same. I am afraid, given your troll-ish nature and vacuous argumentative waffling, the only “stupid” one in this equation is you. “Why are you surprised that “society” wants to… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

I’m obviously not getting the picture selection, because I fail to see the brilliance.

If I were picking a picture, I might have gone with someone digging through a cart of discarded “free” books left outside a retiring professor’s office for something to read, or perhaps someone discovering a delicate and ancient tome that has mostly blank pages.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Regarding the picture:

It’s nice and subtle seems to suggest even when the facade is stripped away and the truth reveled there’s still work to done. And that work is done one mind at a time.

Mark
Mark
7 years ago

Check this white knighting ala john stewart. I had to share this with the blog just to prove how real this all is right now in the media. Feminized conditioning at it’s best(worst).

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/jon-stewart-chris-christie-victim-vaginafication-america-video-143437673.html

Mark
Mark
7 years ago

Rollo, forgot to mention I gave a shout to your site to spread the word in my comment on the above article. Keep up the great work! Feminization is quite real and has been happening since the 60’s. I like Stewart but that kind of knee jerk response just proves how feminized we have gotten. He has to pander to his audience, I get that, but this white knight schtick is old hat. He’s a typical beta male that jumps to women’s defense at every chance. Nothing Hume said here is sexist-he’s correct in that men are always under that… Read more »

DBM
DBM
7 years ago

The point, LivingTree, is that men who realize that women subvert the rules for their own interest have to process this in light of the fact that their masculinity is questioned as simultaneously not enough or totally bad. Men learn from single mother and single mother teacher and childless professor that men are oppressive instruments who bring fear and misery. Meanwhile, popular culture depicts agencies of potent male sexuality as the only “true” men. There is no shortage of self help cottage industry for women processing the fact that genetically superior vaginas are preferred on magazine covers, but men have… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

DBM To dismiss male grievances over deception is to admit where the center or privilege lay. You couldn’t empathize with men even if you tried, and the fact that men are beginning to stop empathizing with female pathologies and align themselves with their own desires necessarily turns back the clock on female privilege provided for by white knights. When men stop paying, stop working, stop dadding up then women will have to meet men’s demands head on. It’s because this process will result in fewer entitlements to women and dare I say it, more emotional and financial pain than they… Read more »

Kate
7 years ago

DifferentT: What he said was “I don’t seem to do a lot, but it takes all my time.” To me, that is the ideal. Everything that you do is done well and focused on for the duration of the experience. People rushing madly about to socialize, make money, buy things, etc. look like foolish insects on the march to hell. I have to let them go their way if they aren’t interested in alternatives, but it isn’t *my* way. @Jeremy: The Andes crash happened six years before I was born. I brought it up as an example that might inspire… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Gosh, Kate, you’re such an expert on what it is like to be a man. Maybe you could start your own blog and write up all those wonderful thoughts?

Thoughts more complex than “It works!” would be just dandy.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

walawala I would sum up my co-dependence simply as “fear” of losing someone when the key to game is being secure in who you are in every situation. This is important, and not just for the obvious issue (oneitis, which can lead to suicide) but for more subtle reasons such as outcome independence, controlling and ultimately eliminating any fear of women, and so forth. Sometimes when I listen to younger men who come from divorced homes I hear a mixture of fear and anger about “mommy” – a fear of abandonment, and an anger as well. I’m not saying this… Read more »

Kate
7 years ago

kay

Jeremy
7 years ago

Kate isn’t wrong in her comment directed at LT. But LT (deliberately) fundamentally misunderstands the points made here, so it’s misguided and almost dismissive of the blog posts that Rollo makes and the comments others make to try and explain it to her. Also, just because red-pill understanding does move men through different “phases” of feelings about it doesn’t diminish the value in anything said here, which seemingly both Kate and LT want to believe. Women want to believe in the self-sacrifice of men just as men want to believe in the innate virtue of the feminine. Because of this,… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
7 years ago

Mark, your link is a great illustration of this excerpt from earl’s link: “Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” If this is the case these days, it hasn’t been for most of history. It would get you killed with a real weapon. But along with that came (most of the time) a sense of honour and purpose, a strong social contract, the right to pride in one’s accomplishments balanced with a sense of in-group togetherness and charity, and long stretches of peace and productivity. Not to gloss it over – a lotta bad shit went down – but… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
7 years ago

Lots of good points in there DBM… “masculinity is questioned as simultaneously not enough or totally bad” profound “this process will result in fewer entitlements to women and dare I say it, more emotional and financial pain than they want to deal with” This is what feminists don’t seem to get. We may ride our innertubes down this here river and make a few waves, but we’re not going to make anywhere near as much whinging noise as feminism. We won’t need to. We’ll quietly step back up on the bank and move on with our lives on our own… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

Stewart has sacred cows. It is obvious in what and who he does not target. This is how you know he’s just another talking head instead of a comedian as he claims.

Mr. Criag
Mr. Criag
7 years ago

Rollo, Another great article…your insight and thus the description of what you are explaining also is in depth and rational. I know you do get the odd “Kenneth’s” of the world, but they seem to take this so personal. I have 2 daughters, but being “red pill” doesn’t mean I’m going to look at them any less worth or inferior. In fact, being and understanding Alpha and the concept of “2 sets of Books” helps me relate and actually has enhanced my relationship with them. I have a dear friend, he still is as blue pill and beta. He keeps… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Re: Parrado. Kudos to his will to live and all, but I never read his account, and am possibly faultily recalling from my old reading of Alive when it came out. Besides the lipstick remedies and other stuff which I didn’t find as amusing as the author hoped, I seem to recall him as an ineffective party boy just going along to get along. And the men who trekked out, the only ones who could still stagger far, had to leave primarily because they were all were rapidly declining physically and they were running out of easily chewable meat. They… Read more »

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

No, it is a (since subsided) surprise at their existence, a shift of perspective and a desire to share those experiences with others who have experienced the same. This is in reference to the existence of the “masculine responsibilities” existing to facilitate the feminine imperative, correct? Again, isn’t your only grievance that you were too stupid to come to the realization before being taken advantage of? If that is not correct, what is upsetting? I am bothered that society “brainwashes” young boys into adopting behaviours that are ultimately detrimental to their own wellbeing Again, is your grievance that you adopted… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
7 years ago

[I am bothered that society “brainwashes” young boys into adopting behaviours that are ultimately detrimental to their own wellbeing] “Again, is your grievance that you adopted those behaviors?” Can’t speak for whoever you’re asking that question to, but personally, yes, I am bothered that I fell for it for so long… but not only that. I’m also bothered by the knowledge that it’s occurring in such a sweeping fashion – even to the male children of who should be my “competitors” in the market – and bothered even more that there seems to be precious little admission, let alone sane… Read more »

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

I’m also bothered by the knowledge that it’s occurring in such a sweeping fashion – even to the male children of who should be my “competitors” in the market – and bothered even more that there seems to be precious little admission, let alone sane explanation or contrition for it. Why would there be “contrition” for it? None of the commenters on a “manosphere” site can even say they value things differently from those promoting it. Again, the question still remains. Was the development of those obligations, rights, and responsibilities (referred to in this instance as the “first set of… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

If I understand different T correctly:

Men are stupid, get duped, have no reason to be angry.

If that’s true then:

Women dresses slutty, gets raped, no reason to be angry.
Grandma gets Nigerian email, conned out of life savings no reason to be angry.
Voter believes candidates promises, gets the system we have, has no reason to be angry.

Yes that makes perfect sense. They were all asking for it.

So finally when man finally has enough, kills hypergamous wife, society has no reason to be angry.

It’s all so simple.

D-Man
D-Man
7 years ago

Indeed, why would we expect that? That would make us victims. Sore losers. Not very gentlemanly or sportsmanlike of us. Good point. Play on

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@LivingTree – Are you really going to say that getting married isn’t a social contract? That forming a family with a woman isn’t a social contract? I also narrowed my question to you to be just about the absurdly high rate of female initiated divorces in families with young children – and you just ignored it. Like every single woman I’ve ever brought it up to. Please, if you want to have a conversation focus on just that. The rest of my comment was a citation of how female dominance presents itself institutionally to men, and that is a violation… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
7 years ago

@DT – I didn’t say anything about a turning around. Just a tipping point.

BlackPoisonSoul
7 years ago

@Glenn – you are starting to grasp the female MO. Ignore, deflect, bring up irrelevancies, insult, act obtuse, etc etc – until you are so tied up in knots that you become incoherent and forget what you are talking about.
Just ignore them. It’s easier on the mind, soul, and sanity.

After all, you cannot have a reasoning conversation with someone who persistently drops to the level of a 4yo saying: “I don’t like you. You stinky-poos. Nyah Nyah Nyah!”

Cylux
Cylux
7 years ago

Was the development of those obligations, rights, and responsibilities (referred to in this instance as the “first set of books”) bullshit created for the feminine imperative? To begin with, no, however as they were adjusted and reshaped over time, along with the circumstances and environment within which they operate, yes. Many good functional things can be co-opted for destructive purposes after all. Or were those concepts related to the realities of human life? Depends on what you mean by this question, it is not clear. If you are asking ‘Does playing by these rules mitigate the worst behaviour that humanity… Read more »

Kate
7 years ago

“Also, just because red-pill understanding does move men through different “phases” of feelings about it doesn’t diminish the value in anything said here, which seemingly both Kate and LT want to believe.”

There is a tendency for people who’ve made it in any sort of context to dismiss what and who helped get them there. So, I surely don’t intend to diminish the value of things said here. They are important and necessary. All I’m saying is there’s more beyond this, and we should remember that and not get stuck indefinitely in what should be a progression.

Sao Feng
Sao Feng
7 years ago

How to tell whether someone is beta: the knee jerk reaction to absolutely attempt to persuade Lyingtree of anything.

The time spent churning out paragraphs of rebuttals to a dried up uterus would be better spent gaming a wet young girl.

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

Men are stupid, get duped, have no reason to be angry. If that’s true then: Women dresses slutty, gets raped, no reason to be angry. Grandma gets Nigerian email, conned out of life savings no reason to be angry. Voter believes candidates promises, gets the system we have, has no reason to be angry. If those males agree that the values used to “dupe” them were false and their response is to act like a female, yes. If the grandma decides the world is full of cons and goes to the nursing to defraud others, yes. If voters believe the… Read more »

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

@ Cylux Thank you. Well if an ideology has gone far too far and prompted one sex to abandon the first set of rules in favour of a covert second set that exclusively benefits them, without even the self awareness to recognise that that is what they have done, then I’d class that as ‘those realities have fundamentally changed’. There is a cost of course, whether or not it will all be worth it will be for future generations to muddle out. By using the word “ideology” you are saying that it is the perspective, outlook, and interpretation that has… Read more »

eris
eris
7 years ago

@ Kate. You’ve mentioned several times that men need to “progress” to something else but I would be curious to know what the “more beyond this” is. It makes the assumption people involved in the manosphere have something to “get out of their system” – which admittedly is not to say that it isn’t cathartic for some. Take the problem of single men making up 90-95% of the homeless due to society’s general unwillingness to provide any real support for them. Upon discovering this you may feel angry, but with time the emotion subsides, however, this doesn’t mean you simply… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

If I’ve been blocked from commenting can you please tell me so, and why? Please advise.

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

An entire comment disappeared, not sure why. I bet I can do it much shorter though, lol. Let me try the bulletized version. 1. LivingTree didn’t answer my direct question about the phenomena of 80%+ of divorces with young children being initiated by women, yet lectures. 2. LivingTree seems to think marriage and family formation aren’t a social contract between men and women, mothers and fathers. 3. My specific situation also included violation of any sort of reciprocal relationship with a daughter and two sisters who instead kicked me and denigrated me in horrific ways when I was down. As… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Water Cannon Boy
7 years ago

Can’t wait for recess. When my ideology becomes my reality.

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Sao Feng

The time spent churning out paragraphs of rebuttals to a dried up uterus would be better spent gaming a wet young girl.

That’s true. I confess I fell for the belief that someone was actually curious about another perspective, but I do that often.

Cylux
Cylux
7 years ago

By using the word “ideology” you are saying that it is the perspective, outlook, and interpretation that has changed. No. I am not. Ideology is more than sufficient on it’s own to modify the behaviour of those who subscribe to said ideology. Though I struggle to grasp what it is that you’re getting at. The main problem is you have yet to explain just what the fuck you mean by “the realities of human life”, it’s a phrase that can have many meanings to many different people, and as such is quite meaningless. So until you do deign to clarify… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
7 years ago

@Sao Feng @Jeremy –

I believe that it was RooshV who once said something along the lines of “never listen to anything she says”.

It’s so much easier than trying to explain “red” to somebody who has been blind from birth. It’s also easier than trying to teach a pig to sing: you stop wasting time, which is annoying to both you and the pig.

@GeishaKate –

Do I smell a hint of the old blame/shame/maim tactic and autoshame coming from you again?

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

1. Romantic love, i.e. infatuation, is a biological fact for males, and it does not quickly cease for males like it characteristically does for females. Men do NOT experience an internal change after a short honeymoon period. This oxytocin latching mechanism is probably nature’s way of trying to ensure that the male sticks around even after the female transfers all of her affections to the baby. 2. His romantic love for her does not make her want another baby with him. Romance, the stuff that a starry-eyed in-love man wants to naturally do, does not work as Game, period. Redpill… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

Jimi Hendrix and Funkadelic.

“Stone Free”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXxRnXTxXuQ

“A woman here, a woman there
Try to keep me in a plastic cage
But they don’t realize it’s so easy to break

Oh, but sometimes I can feel my heart kinda
Running hot
That’s when I got to move
Before I get caught”

And “Hit It And Quit It.” Self explanatory :p

livingtree2013
7 years ago

Glenn, before I answer your questions, I want you to know that after Kate posted her comment to me about this being a starting point, I deleted my notifications for new posts on this site. It became immanently clear to me that I can have no input here that will ever reach the minds of Rollo’s readers, not until they “get back on land” as she very eloquently put it. However, I found myself missing the interaction, much to my chagrin. I came back to just read how the conversation was progressing. I read your comment, and though I don’t… Read more »

livingtree2013
7 years ago

Also, before I go, I wanted to link this article here for you to chew on. http://postmasculine.com/the-three-loves By all means, Mark’s description of three-fold love is nothing new. It is old-testament old, in fact. But he has a modern take on it, with a psychological component that I find thought-provoking. I particularly like this statement, “Commitment is when the passion of Love Two persists to the point that it’s unconditional. Couples that are in Love Two and not Love Three will often feel great until something happens: he loses his job, she has a miscarriage, he starts drinking, etc. Commitment… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Softek, Pearl Jam “Better man”. No matter the inspiration, can’t find a better song about hypergamy and alpha widowhood, even when her alpha was him when she was in her honeymoon infatuation. Waitin’, watchin’ the clock, it’s four o’clock, it’s got to stop Tell him, take no more, she practices her speech As he opens the door, she rolls over Pretends to sleep as he looks her over She lies and says she’s in love with him, can’t find a better man She dreams in color, she dreams in red, can’t find a better man Can’t find a better man… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
7 years ago

Now a woman, Lord, is like a young bird
And the tall oak tree is a young man’s heart
Among its boughs you’ll find her nesting
When the nights are cool, she is warm and dry

Your coat of green it will protect her
Her wings will grow, your love will too
But all too soon your mighty branches
Will cease to hold her, and she will fly from you

from Gordon Lightfoot’s The Way I Feel

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@ Living Tree – “Trigger Warning: Statistics” – How obnoxious of you. And of course you cite overall stats which are 70%, meaning women initiate divorce 2.3 times more frequently than men do – that should be alarming in and of itself and make you wonder why entertainment media overwhelmingly presents women’s as victims of divorce when that’s clearly the exception, not the rule. Use Google more effectively. When there are children and the women is still in childbearing years, the stats are that it’s over 80% of the time initiated by women. In fact, men rarely initiate divorce when… Read more »

livingtree2013
7 years ago
Reply to  Glenn

And you made mine Glenn, you completely missed the point. Good luck.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

A Livingtree Translation:

You see Glenn it’s all your fault even when it isn’t. Fuck off.

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@ Badpainter – Made me break out in a giggle with that one. 11 months since I took the RedPill and still am learning lots. I see her entire commentary as given by her unconscious embrace of the female imperative. Reading her comments is like watching a bug under a magnifying glass. I did make the mistake of trying to engage her, and I do that less and less these days. I still at times am overtaken by denial, in that I reflexively want to think that I can get through. Lol, “one-itis” at work. I feel a lightness and… Read more »

Cylux
Cylux
7 years ago

I see much evidence that men nearly always believe in fate (which could be re-stated as “accepting the consequences of your actions”), whereas women nearly always believe in free will (which could be re-stated as “creating one’s own life”).

I’d lay it out more along the lines that men are taught from birth “women and children first!”, whereas women are taught “get to the lifeboat!”.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Glenn, it’s best to read her as satire, you know, for entertainment purposes only.

I found the the redpill about 8 months ago, really very liberating. I am glad to discover the why and wherefore of 20 years of thinking that there’s something wrong with the world and also finding out it’s not my fault.

John Dark
John Dark
7 years ago

The moment when a blue pill man finds out the truth and that his efforts in the world have been for naught is a truly dangerous moment. I know. I was a high-achiever, good corporate job and prosperous. I married and loved a woman who, after 10 years, left me, after destroying our home. She told me I had wronged her and been a bad husband. My crime was that after supporting her and subsidizing her (failed) businesses for ten years I asked her to get a job and make a real contribution to our financial life, When she left… Read more »

Kate
7 years ago

I don’t disagree with you, eris. I recently made the statement that picking up chicks is the least of the manosphere’s focuses. The only shame involved, BPS, is that it would be a shame if people viewed red pill knowledge as the end of life rather than the beginning. Mental breakdown is caused by the crash of a person’s worldview (THIS WASN’T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN- TO ME!) Its debilitating. So, when you figure out why things happened (what you did, what other people did) and it all makes sense, you are actually in a better place than you were before.… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

I don’t have any particular point in mind with sharing this. Leaving it open-ended. It’s a quote I like a lot, and I think it’s appropriate here as food for thought: ~*~*~*~*~* Although the phrase “genetic epistemology” was coined by Jean Piaget, a major philosophical and scientific theme of the 20th century has been the idea that the “forms” of knowledge, for perceiving space, or logical relations, or language patterns, are derived from our genes, and that they are somehow built into the arrangement of our brain cells so that we spontaneously think in certain ways, and don’t have the… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Water Cannon Boy
7 years ago

I’d lay it out more along the lines that men are taught from birth “women and children first!”, whereas women are taught “get to the lifeboat!”. Next time in class Different T will have a question about whether accepting those teachings is the source of your anger. I believe, based on four decades of “scientific observation” (said tongue in cheek) of the human race, that it is a peculiarly male trait that I refer to as “fate acceptance”. That is to say, males are fanatically obsessed with economic progress, but generally they have a self-defeating proclivity to accept things as… Read more »

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

No. I am not. Ideology is more than sufficient on it’s own to modify the behaviour of those who subscribe to said ideology. Though I struggle to grasp what it is that you’re getting at. The main problem is you have yet to explain just what the fuck you mean by “the realities of human life”, it’s a phrase that can have many meanings to many different people, and as such is quite meaningless. So until you do deign to clarify I’m afraid we will be ever groping about in the dark when trying to reply to you. Understood and… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@Kate – I want to be respectful because I think you are actually trying to help and may have history on this site that I’m unaware of. So, let me just say it plainly. In your last comment you were observing that there is something beyond just embracing the new view afforded one by taking the red pill. You went to pains to make clear you were sympathetic or something to what men are going through etc. First off, it’s a bit patronizing. At 51, having done 15 years of therapy for other issues (childhood abuse, very serious with PTSD… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

LT’s exit was as closed-minded as her entrance. Apparently we’re all retarded for not having let her use the manosphere to totally reframe everything in the manosphere to align with her ego-invested views of the world.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

LT had to leave because the bridge called and needed her scare some goats.

infowarrior1
7 years ago

Good looks like I do not need to hire a bunch of thugs to kidnap LT and transport the woman to Afghanistan.

BlackPoisonSoul
7 years ago

Sending LT to Afghanistan is using WMD, I don’t think that the Afghani’s deserve that cruel and unusual punishment.

boomerick
boomerick
7 years ago

rotting stump—-victimize the victim, worship credentialism, play the statistics when they’re convienient game, dodge responsibility….claim historic oppression…….spin hamster spin……standard…..predictable…..average….thoughtless

again, you are the PERFECT example of everything wrong…

rollo—you are becoming internet famous enough to begin attracting groupies….

and unfortunately they seem to be lower caliber than the local indie metal band pulls…..(yuk)

this ding-bat is actually making the once interesting comments unreadible……

this isnt sparing to demonstrate fitness ability and control…..you have that and we know it….

its shadow boxing…….your opponent is an empty nothing

Over and Out

Cylux
Cylux
7 years ago

You can start by thinking about a baby. A baby simply is someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a dead pile of flesh. Someone’s responsibility? No. A mother and father’s responsibility yes, an extended family’s responsibility, more than likely, but biologically speaking responsibility for, ends there. Other people may elect to be responsible for a baby for whatever motivation drives them, but in stark genetic terms I am no more responsible in ensuring your genetic legacy is continued as you are for mine. Now you might bring up that we are generally hardwired to look after and save babies should we… Read more »

Kate
7 years ago

@Glenn: Of course, I do. And the reason I do is that I’ve experienced some of the things you’ve described (though not all). I apologize for sounding patronizing. I am not sure I have much to offer the over 50 crowd. At 35, I’ve had more experiences that I should, but that’s still a big gap. I’m off to work even though I should be staying at home sick. Hey, its what responsible, working people do. Its what I’ve been doing all my life.

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

@ Cylux Your post is informative. A baby simply is someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a dead pile of flesh. The statement is correct. You then projected some sort of judgement about who you think should be responsible. Vague point is vague. The concepts are not vague, they are abstract. Depends on how you define equality really. “state of being equal: rights, treatment, quantity, or value equal to all others in a specific group ” At some point you may realize that these manosphere sites are currently just as much a part of a rebellion against order among people as… Read more »

Eris
Eris
7 years ago

@cylux the “well, you men aren’t lumbered with childbearing” seems to be something that women and feminists will use over and over again as a justification of whatever – sometimes I goggle at the level of cognitive dissonance that some of these types are content to entertain. @Glenn. I also felt there was an subtly patronising tone to her response – rather than share any experience of her own, she simply tries to quantify experiences that she has little idea of and offer disapproval dressed up as self help advice where it wasn’t solicited. As I read through the posts… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Erie- “Nothing will seemingly deter women from trying to define the male experience for them and in a way that suits themselves – it is in the female nature to come into men’s discussions and start placing a female frame over everything – akin to the way a woman will try to revamp a man’s wardrobe and lifestyle habits the moment she emotionally invests in him – only to feel resentment later down the line that he actually let her get away with it.” Much like what happened to old school all male social fraternities, and civic organizations. The girls… Read more »

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

The club in my city recently had a vote to amend its by-laws to be more “family friendly.”

The amendments were as follows.

1. Change the wording from “spouse” to “partner.” The state doesn’t allow gay marriage.
2. Extend membership rights to all “partners.”
3. Grant the surviving “partner” whatever level of rights the decedent had achieved, including retroactive granting of said rights.

Again, the preamble said these changes were to make the club more “family friendly.” No mention of homosexuality was included. No mention of the members whom these amendments would affect.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

And this how a free society dies.

Civic life is killed off one club, lodge, or church at time ultimately leaving behind organizations that are strictly political and centered around state action. Any sense of community is erased and every issue abstracted and perverted into some form of rent seeking.

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

“perverted into some form of rent seeking.”

Many, if not the majority, of the members are wealthy, intelligent, and progressive. They are in positions of profiting from this “state action.” Whether they rose to those positions because of their progressive beliefs, or their progressive beliefs are a result of their positions is unknown.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Mais bien sur!

Rich people are rent seekers
Poor people are rent payers

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

I did not say all of them were.

Eris
Eris
7 years ago

“After gaining admission with the help of weak men they discover it’s not as much fun as expected. So when the right clique of sassy broads coalesces they begin to change the organization for the “benefit” of ALL of the members. Men start to skip meetings, the traditional old guard of men quit or die.” This is why, while I understand where Sao-feng is coming from when he says that only betas argue churn out arguments to those that women make, I do, however, wonder whether, as long as it’s perceived as “beta” to turn round and say “Actually, what… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Badpainter 8:22 Your exquisite rendering of civic Life In These United States sent shivers down my spine, and not in a good way. Goosebumps of horror, not thrill.

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

Actually, what you just said is completely wrong, and here’s why… – now stop making it all about you” whenever a female kindly offers to reframe the issue for you, the same cycle will continue.

In that spirit…

Rich people are rent seekers
Poor people are rent payers

This comment betrays a poor ability to differentiate between those seeking rent and those paying rent.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Me-
Rich people are rent seekers
Poor people are rent payers

Different T- “This comment betrays a poor ability to differentiate between those seeking rent and those paying rent.”

I hope for the day when a pithy generalization can be offered and accepted without the necessity of offering a boilerplate NA(x)ALT qualification if for no other reason than to save bandwidth. Further a generalization being general in nature does not preclude the existence of exceptions anymore than the existence of exceptions to a generalization invalidates the generalization in question.

Cylux
Cylux
7 years ago

A baby simply is someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a dead pile of flesh.

The statement is correct. You then projected some sort of judgement about who you think should be responsible.

The reason why I added a value judgement is because the correct statement is actually A baby requires someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a pile of dead flesh. Your framing demanded a value judgement.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@John Dark, thanks for your story, the story of too many. Mine was similar in many ways, a 10 yr marriage w/ children that ended in 1980, and she hated me for letting her get what she had strived for (note my verb choice), and I became painfully skinny.

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Eris This is why, while I understand where Sao-feng is coming from when he says that only betas argue churn out arguments to those that women make, I do, however, wonder whether, as long as it’s perceived as “beta” to turn round and say “Actually, what you just said is completely wrong, and here’s why… – now stop making it all about you” whenever a female kindly offers to reframe the issue for you, the same cycle will continue. It’s probably as simple as “fool me once…” LT approached this site under the guise of intellectual curiousity. She wanted to… Read more »

Sao Feng
Sao Feng
7 years ago

LyingTree just wants attention, like all women. Period.

It’s like a woman in her 30s going on and on about why all men are evil. I simply turn my head to look at the younger-hotter-tighter-30-pounds-lighter walking by.

Sao Feng
Sao Feng
7 years ago

@Rollo

Pirates of the Caribbean. Take what you can, give nothing back!

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

A baby simply is someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a dead pile of flesh.

Again, the statement is correct.

If the baby is not someone’s responsibility, it becomes a dead pile flesh.

This is getting pathetic.

Different T
Different T
7 years ago

I hope for the day when a pithy generalization can be offered and accepted without the necessity of offering a boilerplate NA(x)ALT qualification if for no other reason than to save bandwidth.

Agreed. Generally, that is going to require familiarization with the speaker in question and the expectation of good will, neither of which has been established.

Further a generalization being general in nature does not preclude the existence of exceptions anymore than the existence of exceptions to a generalization invalidates the generalization in question.

Correct.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Oh, I missed this gem in a previous read: Fifth – are you saying that being treated equally under the law is a social contract? Since fucking when has the application of law EVER been equal??? I would genuinely LOVE it if it were, but it is not, nor has it ever been. If you try and tell me that its always been in favor of women, I’m going to find you and punch you in the face repeatedly. Here we see the violence inherent in the feminist. “If you say something I do not agree with, I have the… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Re: books. Most often the second set of manuals supposedly says the same thing as the first set but in an unintelligible language. Wouldn’t it make a great mystery story if, for example, the Russian version of a thick manual on how to operate a tool-and-die machine, accompanying an equipment operator, actually was a bunch of spy secrets he could take anywhere? Who’s going to check obscure technical writing past a couple pages?

Cylux
Cylux
7 years ago

A baby simply is someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a dead pile of flesh. Again, the statement is correct. If the baby is not someone’s responsibility, it becomes a dead pile flesh. This is getting pathetic. No, your framing is what is pathetic. The baby requires someone, (or something, children raised by animals in the wild have been documented after all, they even grow a thin coat of fur, something or other to do with persistent near-malnourishment) to be responsible for it, otherwise it will die, but that on it’s own does not make it inherently someone’s responsibility. Just because… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

“A baby simply is someone’s responsibility”.

An existential need does not constitute a valid claim against the life of another.

Eris
Eris
7 years ago

@Jeremy Despite what I wrote before, I agree; LT has already been refuted time and again. Many words have been written in response to provide counter-arguments to what originally seemed to be, as you say, a genuine interest – she has even featured in one of Rollo’s articles. As such, it’s true there comes a point when her comments begin to resemble mere trolling and attention seeking rather than anything constructive – reading back through her comments, it’s fair to say she has been given more than a reasonable amount patience. @Rollo I couldn’t remember where I had seen the… Read more »

Simo
Simo
7 years ago

Jesus people. From day one this chick was trolling, getting off on the attention of men she otherwise could never have engaged so successfully in any other social context. If you met LT in real life, would any of you have given here the 20 minute chunks of time it took to write some of the replies over recent weeks? No way. It’s also likely that in person, an array of non-verbal ques would have given away her true intent and undermined the credibility of her POV almost immediately. By arguing with her (caring what she thinks) you are validating… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Me- “I hope for the day when a pithy generalization can be offered and accepted without the necessity of offering a boilerplate NA(x)ALT qualification if for no other reason than to save bandwidth.” Different T- “Agreed. Generally, that is going to require familiarization with the speaker in question and the expectation of good will, neither of which has been established.” My mistake, you see my recent rebellion is a work in progress and I sometimes revert to the lessons of a lifetime of Beta conditioning. Therefore I have made the following errors: 1. Presuming that everyone here is at least… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Rollo Re: your attention (9/21/2011). Right at the end of that article you mention women preferring covert attentions. I think, maybe, I more precisely identified it as preferring conspiring, in a comment at J4G. I hoped you could give it a look see.

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