In my essay Casualties I described the situation of my sister-in-law and her first husband committing suicide.
The first guy I knew to commit suicide over a woman was my brother-in-law. I don’t like to go into too much detail about it as critics may think it’s my casus belli for getting involved in the manosphere, but suffice to say it was after a 20 year marriage and 2 children. My sister-in-law promptly married the millionaire she was seeing less than a year after he was in the ground. This is a real point of contention her family and I have with her, but it was his terminal beta-ness / ONEitis conditioning that greatly contributed to his hanging himself. The psychologist in me knows there are plenty of imbalances that dispose a person to suicide, but I also know there are plenty of external prompts that make taking action more probable.
My brother-in-law hung himself as a response to having the unthinkable happen to him; his ONE, his soulmate, a woman he was very posessive of, was leaving him after 20 years of marriage (for a millionaire we discovered later). She was the ONLY woman he’d ever had sex with and had been (to the best of my knowledge) a faithful and dependable husband and father since they married at 18 and 19. He did the ‘right thing’ and married her when he’d gotten her pregnant at 17 and stuck by her, sacrificed any ambition he had and worked his ass off to send both his kids to college – an advantage he’d never achieve. He wasn’t a saint by any means, and I’m not going to argue my sister-in-law’s motivations, since those aren’t my point; my point is that he was an AFC who never came to terms with it and believed his life was only completed with his ONE. He literally couldn’t go on without her.
He couldn’t kill the beta (if he was even aware of it), so he killed himself.
This was back in 2003 and I’ll admit the trauma of this experience and the behavior and consequent mindset of my wife’s sister was a catalyst in waking me up to a much broader definition of feminine hypergamy. No longer was this curious term just about “the tendency of women to ‘marry up’ in status with men”, it was about an entire psycho-social dynamic written into women’s psychological firmware since birth. It was this experience that made me aware that hypergamy was an overriding psychological imperative based on a constant condition of doubt and uncertainty about how well she might optimize this hypergamy in measure with her capacity to attract men of equal or greater SMV than her own.
I’ll also admit this episode in my life was personally jarring for me when I considered that my own wife would necessarily be prone to the same predispositions. Her sister, a God-fearing evangelical ‘good girl’, had gone feral on the husband who’d done the right thing after knocking her up at 17 and married her and set about working his ass off for the next 20 years. She was already in the process of divorcing him when he decided a noose and a tree were a better option than living in a world where he had to see his still gorgeous ex-wife with the millionaire she’d met (and later married). So why not Mrs. Tomassi too, right?
I can list any number of reasons as to why I trust Mrs. Tomassi, all of which I’ve read from every blue pill married chump in my time in the manosphere, but I’m not so naive as to think that certain circumstances and conditions ‘could’ change and she could also go feral. This is what my brother-in-law never could grasp. His world literally revolved around his wife.
He was by no means a saint, and for all of his dedication to his family and wife, his main fault was his possessiveness. My brother-in-law controlled the frame of his marriage, but this frame control was rooted in an insecure possessiveness bordering on the obsessive. On some level of consciousness he knew, by happenstance, an unplanned pregnancy and an early marriage, that he’d married well above what his realized SMV would’ve normally merited.
I’ve seen this type of possessiveness in other men as well, but the common thread among them is usually an underlying, subconscious sense that the guy doesn’t deserve the woman he’s locked down in one way or another. A lot of them would be counted amongst the same Betas who subscribe to the Leagues mentality, only much more pronounced – it’s as if through luck or circumstance, or maybe due to a natural Alpha dominance that they don’t really understand they manifest, they get into an LTR with a woman they would otherwise consider “out of their league.”
Just this possessiveness might seem bad enough, but when it’s combined with ONEitis (the soul-mate myth), a Scarcity Mentality, a subscribing to the myth of Relational Equity or especially a self-righteous dedication to his feminine conditioning and White Knighting, then you’ve got a volatile mix of psychoses and a recipe for suicide or murder-suicide. When possessiveness is a man’s ego-investment and his worst fears of losing the “best thing he’ll ever have”, the relationship he subconsciously believes he didn’t deserve, comes to actuality, he may cease to exist because that former reality ceases to exist. What’s worth living for when you’ve already experienced the best you never merited to begin with?
A lot of my readers got irate with me when I suggested that if their girlfriends or wives wanted to head out with the girls for a GNO they should, as indifferently as possible, let them go. Granted, I attached more than a few caveats as to how to go about it, but the operative behind this indifference is really a test of your own possessiveness.
I’m sure many guys reading this are experiencing the twangs of possessive insecurity even in my suggesting this course of action. The reflexive response most guys will have in a situation like this will be one of mate protection; the fear being that if they don’t express their disapproval they’ll run the risk of their woman thinking they don’t care enough about them to be jealous. This is a trope most guys sell themselves, because it’s more about suspicion than jealousy. As intuitive as this sounds it really masks the insecurity that their girl will meet another guy and hook up with him. On an instinctual level we’re well aware of women’s pluralistic sexual strategies, thus an evolutionarily honed suspicion was hardwired into our psyches to protect men from becoming the beta cuckold provisioning for another male’s offspring. However, as counterintuitive as this sounds, a GNO is an excellent opportunity to display confidence behaviors.
There is always going to be a naturalistic side to male possessiveness. For very good reason evolution selected-for men with a honed sense of suspicion – men want a certainty that their parental investment (or potential for it) will be worth the exchange of resources with a woman who will facilitate it. In other words evolution selected-for men with an internalized, hardwired understanding of women’s biological directive for optimized hypergamy. When a man’s sexual strategy and sexual optimization has to be sacrificed for women’s optimized hypergamous and pluralistic (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks) sexual strategy in order to breed, monogamy becomes a one-sided risk for him.
Sunshine Mary had a recent post with more than a few loose premises about the nature of women. The first of which was this:
1. Women were not designed by either God / evolution to be traded around among men. There are few (or no?) societies in human history in which human females were heavily sexually promiscuous, and marriage has existed in some form in nearly every culture.
I’m not drawing attention to SSM to run her up the flagpole for this assumption, but it does illustrate a very visceral point about the possessiveness dynamic we’re exploring today. I responded to Mary with this:
In human male sperm there are 3 heteromorphic types: Killers, Defenders and Runners (fertilizers).
Killers destroy opposing sperm, Defenders encircle the ovum and provide a barrier against opposing sperm’s runners, and Runners specialize in ovum penetration and fertilization.
The only logical purpose for the evolution (or intelligent design if you prefer) of these type-specific sperm adaptations would be to optimize a competitive advantage in female fertilization of promiscuous human females possessing secretive ovulation.
Even the shape of a male penis is “designed” to maximize insertion depth to the uterus and simultaneously shovel out competing sperm from the vagina.
If women weren’t promiscuous, if women’s biological imperative wasn’t dictated by hypergamy, would these biological phenomenon have been a necessary evolution for human males? The predominant state of sexual competition, rooted in the dualistic, cuckolding, sexual strategies of human females, necessitated not only an evolved, male, psychological predilection for sexual fidelity suspicion, but an evolution of three types of purpose-specific sperm cells to maximize passing a man’s genetic legacy under conditions of uncertainty.
The Possessive Difference
Back in his earlier work Roissy had an interesting post about the behavioral manifestations displayed between Alpha men and Beta men. Really he likened the behaviors to more animalistic tendencies, but whether or not you acknowledge similar behaviors in people, the reasoning behind these actions make a lot of sense. Alpha men are slow to respond to sudden stimuli (such as loud noises or boisterous taunts) because they are so unused to any significant challenge – in other words, they’re not jumpy Betas used to opting for flight instead of fight. Their posture and body language convey confidence, but only because this Alpha posture is behaviorally associated with what Alphas do.
This is an important dynamic to understand when we consider possessiveness. A man with an Alpha disposition would be less possessive, and therefore display an indifference to possessing any particular woman due to his condition of (relative) sexual abundance. Possessiveness, or certainly an overly pronounced manifestation of possessiveness is the behavior of a Beta unused to sexual abundance and more likely accustomed sexual rejection.
It’s important to bear in mind that possessiveness is conveyed in a set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs communicated in many ways. It’s not that possessiveness necessarily makes a man unattractive to a woman; on the contrary, it’s almost a universal female fantasy to be possessed by a so deserving and desirably dominant Alpha Man. It’s a visceral endorsement of the status of a woman’s superior desirability among her peers to be the object of such an Alpha Man’s possession; but likewise this is so common a (romance novel) feminine fantasy because of Alpha Men’s general indifference to possessiveness that makes it so tempting for women.
When self-deprecating, undeserving Beta men overtly display possessiveness, women read the behavior for what it is. Beta possessiveness is almost universally a death sentence (often literally) for an LTR. Nothing demonstrates lower value and confirms a lack of hypergamous suitability for a woman than a Beta preoccupied to the brink of obsession with controlling her behaviors. This isn’t to discount the very real reasons an Alpha or a Beta might have concern for a woman’s behaviors, it’s that his own possessiveness conveys a lack of confidence in himself.
“If women weren’t promiscuous, if women’s biological imperative wasn’t dictated by hypergamy, would these biological phenomenon have been a necessary evolution for human males?”
Great statement, its something that hang in my mind, but your logic cannot be refuted……..
I don’t want to side-track too much from your essay, BUT since you linked to my essay, I’ll assume your response is fair game to discuss. Let’s start with the source you linked to when you left that quote on my blog. Here is your quote: In human male sperm there are 3 heteromorphic types: Killers, Defenders and Runners (fertilizers). Killers destroy opposing sperm, Defenders encircle the ovum and provide a barrier against opposing sperm’s runners, and Runners specialize in ovum penetration and fertilization. The only logical purpose for the evolution (or intelligent design if you prefer) of these type-specific… Read more »
@SSM, I’ll, uh, dig you up a link later today, however there’s also a hypothesis that the latent purpose of male circumcision was in fact to maximize the utilitarian advantage of a man’s “shape”.
Kind of interesting when you consider the religious connotations of marking men as ‘God’s chosen’ people.
A few words on this: “Women were not designed by either God / evolution to be traded around among men. ” Traditionally women were the spoils of war, they were taken as possessions by the winners for sex and work. Now, the woman can resist her captors, try to escape and risk her life. But from an evolutionary standpoint that would be a very bad move. Instead she should bear the kids of the winning Alpha males for obvious reasons. She should literally fall in love with her captors and have kids with them. And nature made sure this is… Read more »
The reflexive response most guys will have in a situation like this will be one of mate protection; the fear being that if they don’t express their disapproval they’ll run the risk of their woman thinking they don’t care enough about them to be jealous. is a trope most guys sell themselves, because it’s more about suspicion than jealousy I don’t argue the veracity of this statement. However, from personal experience and anecdotal observation, this trope is largely sold and perpetuated by women. But that Beta folk buy into it at all is a testament to all that you’ve said.… Read more »
Yes, Richard E, but women were not the spoils of war very often, and even so, many of them ended up with one man, even if part of a harem. Women now have N counts that used to be reserved for prostitutes. I am not saying that women were designed/evolved to be able to bond to ONLY one man ever in her life. I am aware that at all points in history, women may have had more than one sex partner, but it was generally one of two situations: 1. Her husband died, and she remarried. 2. She was taken… Read more »
A little advice from the enemy…..:)
sunshinemary, you only need to be killed once for your chances of passing your genes to the next generation to be zero. Either you had the genes to survive or you didn’t. Selection worked very effectively for this trait. I also think you are underestimating the level of violence/war/conflict in human history. If men and women are the result of what our ancestors needed to do to survive, our ancestors had a very violent and difficult life. And look around you, you may have rights as a woman and you may live in relative security but historically speaking, not long… Read more »
When possessiveness is a man’s ego-investment and his worst fears of losing the “best thing he’ll ever have”, the relationship he subconsciously believes he didn’t deserve, comes to actuality, he may cease to exist because that former reality ceases to exist. What’s worth living for when you’ve already experienced the best you never merited to begin with? These lines really got to me. While I thought that I had done my best to squash the worst instincts of ONEitis, the notion of the “best thing he’ll ever have” made me realize a sneaky way it could work its way back… Read more »
SSM, the scooping action can be observed. Maybe Rollo didnt want to get into that much detail. Just saying.
What about the women, many married and monogomous, that express strong desires for bondage and 50 shades type sex? Is this her strong desire for a dom and for him to turn her into a full sub?
Women like assholes not because they are assholes but because they CAN be assholes. There is a big difference. A man that CAN be an asshole and that CAN get away with it does so by being high enough value, at least in that woman’s perception. Their “higher value” comes from any combination of looks/physicality; status, money, earning potential, and available (real) options. In a simplistic way,the behavior of both men and women is largely determined by what they believe that they can get away with; based on the previous experience of social feedback and social conditioning. For example, a… Read more »
“A little advice from the enemy…..:)”
Once again, Semi (at best) intelligent women (and one is a fattie) giving oversimplified advice that would only work for a man that is ALREADY high value and/or has preselection.
Their solipsistic rationalization hamster spins and spins, bereft of any true insight or understanding.
Thank you for sharing your story – it really was quite an eye-opener. I’d be curious whether you think the nature of female possessiveness is similar – women who, even early on in a relationship, feel the need to keep tabs on the man despite perhaps not allowing any such thing done unto themselves – as I have seen with male friends in ltr’s. Is this possessiveness a result of an imbalance of SMV within the relationship (after all, neither men or women are naturally 100% monogamous and could potentially stray), a naïve (and short-lived) form of female one-itis or… Read more »
Reading back I realise “have one’s cake and eat it” is misused. I guess it would be more along the lines of “not behave in a way you expect others to”.
1. Women were not designed by either God / evolution to be traded around among men. There are few (or no?) societies in human history in which human females were heavily sexually promiscuous, and marriage has existed in some form in nearly every culture. So, women are (more) naturally pure and chaste (than men), because God/evolution made them that way? How is this different than what is widely taught in Churchianity and feminized society at large? Isn’t debunking this myth one of the main Red Pill truths? Really, SSM? I think you need to amend your premise to be something… Read more »
“I can list any number of reasons as to why I trust Mrs. Tomassi, all of which I’ve read from every blue pill married chump in my time in the manosphere, but I’m not so naive as to think that certain circumstances and conditions ‘could’ change and she could also go feral. This is what my brother-in-law never could grasp. His world literally revolved around his wife.” Knowledge is power…although cold rational logic is going to have to be strong in order to overcome that type of emotional bullet to the heart. Perhaps the only way to go with women’s… Read more »
Most men – due to a list of reasons – box above their weight with women in physical attractiveness scale. Being nice guys – as most men are – the likelihood is a man will get one shot at this “upgrading” facility. This predicament acts as a natural default for male jealousy, insecurity, desperation and possessiveness. As this process usually takes place when women are at their most attractive (hence hottest), men fail to take on board the depreciation of a woman’s worth, and her demands that consequently diminish with the slide. The below link will hopefully put more meat… Read more »
Sobering post dude, but well done. Two questions:
1) I echo this question: I can’t help but wonder why the millionaire, who you might assume by being a millionaire has options, would go for a widowed woman with kids.
She wasn’t widowed at the time, but why did this millionaire pull a King David and take the only thing Uriah had?
2) Did you ever do a post on why you decided to get married? And what it is about your wife that made you make this decision?
I’d take women’s nature much like St. Thomas Aquinas did when he saw a levitating nun.
“Perhaps the only way to go with women’s feral nature is indifference. It’s not like it should surprise a red pill man if it happens to the point that you would kill yourself…and if she keeps it under control consider yourself blessed.”
There must be a balance, Indifference can be seen as acceptance of them going feral.
Indifference may not be the best term…I’m not even sure amused mastery would work either.
Anybody know a better term for not being surprised that it is happening on the outside…and still not liking it on the inside?
Well, the first of the Ten Commandments is, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” That includes your wife/women/your marriage.
So if as a man you think that your snowflake is incapable of dumping you because of hypergamy, think again.
It’s the exact same response we have as men when women say, “My son/brother/boyfriend/husband isn’t like that!!!”
1) Does he have a dick?
2) Does it work?
….then, yes he is.
http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/another-turn-in-the-circular-matrix-of-socio-sexual-behavior/#comment-45610 Here’s my comment to SSM in response to the “Women were not designed by either God / evolution to be traded around among men” observation that she made. The link is above to put the quote in its original context. Deti: “From a purely evolutionary biological standpoint, women are designed and have evolved for serial monogamy. Left to her own devices, and unconstrained by morality, law or custom, a woman unleashed onto the sexual marketplace sets about finding – and sexing – the best men she can get. Ultimately the goal is to extract commitment from the best man… Read more »
SSM – You can also look to testicle size (as a proportion of body mass), womens’ mating preference shifts during ovulation (which Rollo has brought to bear in the past), instinctual mate guarding behaviour of males during their mates ovulation, the modern base rate of men raising children that aren’t theirs (around 2% or so) and really, the entire social contract of marriage as evidence of womens’ evolved (designed by God) trait of seeking opportunistic infidelity if sperm competition is too shaky to rest the hypothesis on. It’s the *lack of pair-bonding* in modern hook-up culture that is putting women… Read more »
It essentially boils down to the question of who has ‘hand’ in the relationship. When you get overcome by the scarcity mentality, through one-ites, league-ites or focusing to much on being a hoop-jumping provider drone, your fate will match that of the male drones in bee colonies – after fulfilling their function, they are forcefully evicted from the hive and left out in the cold to starve. On the other hand, when you are aware enough of game and the sexual market place dynamics, you will always be able to replace a partner who becomes too bitchy, demanding, prudish etc.… Read more »
1) Does he have a dick?
2) Does it work?
….then, yes he is.”
as my buddy says, “Let me get the door for you. Wanna fuck?”
My wife of 27 years still thinks I am the only man on the face of the planet that constantly wants to get laid! ROFL!
Well, Earl, on the grounds that the Germans inevitably have a word for That Sort Of Thing, I cobbled a couple together (like they do). Gentleman, I offer you ..Höflichesduldsamkeit.
Anybody know a better term for not being surprised that it is happening on the outside…and still not liking it on the inside?
Awareness, insightful, intuitive, he’s a bad mother…( shut your mouth!) just talking about Shaft.
Of course there is other gentleman beside Earl here my grammerz is hypothermic I thinks.
Regarding SSMs point 1: there are two economic situations that humans find themselves in that trigger certain behaviors, with societies over time having different mixes of both. One is foraging, the other is farming. One aspect of foraging is less focus on stability and individual property ownership; people live communally. Communal societies tend to be matriarchal, and also tend to focus less on caring who the father of the child is. The society as a whole cares for the child, not any individual. High female promiscuity follows. Farmer societies are more focused on stability and thus property ownership. These societies… Read more »
Yes, the suicidal brother-in-law of Rollo’s post was guilty of breaking the First Commandment against idolatry (his ex-wife being the idol).
Men and women have always had competing sexual strategies, but managed to compromise and create pair-bonds for the purpose of creating and raising the next generation. Human beings have had lots of ‘motivational help’ in creating and honoring these pair-bonds through the ages. Survival is a powerful motivator…survival of the individual, survival of the children, survival of the tribe, etc. Later came religion, law, and societal shame to reinforce this ‘motivation’ to honor the pair-bond commitment. Imperfect to be sure, but it worked well enough to grow the species and build civilization…for thousands and thousands of years. All that ‘motivational… Read more »
Forgot to add: the matriarchy/patriarchy tendency for community/individualism is reflected in female/male behavior when both are given a romantic prime. When women are primed to think about mate selection, they are more likely to signal wanting to volunteer more (socialism). When men are primed to think about mate selection, they are more likely to signal how much money they have (capitalism): http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/assets/118355.pdf
Stoic…that’s the word.
Dissociative indifference is the term you’re looking for Earl
Scarcity mindset (beta) vs abundance mindset (alpha). It’s amazing what happens when one applies that to other arenas of life. Contrast men dependent on corporate jobs vs entrepreneurs, for instance.
Deti: The point of all this is that women weren’t designed for hard, lifetime monogamy (and men aren’t either, but that’s a different comment). I think it’s really important that people read what I wrote before they respond to it. What I wrote was: 1. Women were not designed by either God / evolution to be traded around among men. There are few (or no?) societies in human history in which human females were heavily sexually promiscuous, and marriage has existed in some form in nearly every culture. I never wrote that women were designed for hard, lifetime monogamy…though I… Read more »
I just was watching “Raging Bull” and couldn’t help noticing how the protagonist was an Alpha in many ways but could not control his frame with his woman.
@SSM, I’m well aware of the Sperm Wars controversy which is why I used the Wiki link rather than find some definitive ‘study’ that proved the theory or disproved it. The fact remains, it is an observable phenomenon – the latent purpose of it is still debatable. That said, there are many more behavioral and cultural manifestations that imply women’s natural state of promiscuity. We’ve discussed many of them before in fact; Mate Guarding, Menstrual shifts in hormones predisposing women to opportunistic breeding with an Alpha, etc. The fact that marriage (monogamously or polygamously) was ever a societal institution could… Read more »
I think a lot of the outrage about this article stems from men uncomfortable with confronting the existential nature of an obsessive male possessiveness.
It’s much easier and comforting to believe in pre-established romantic fairy tales than look under that dark rock.
I do believe this existential reaction to is encoded into the firmware, it’s visceral. It manifests as a physical agony in the torso, perhaps most strongly in the upper solar plexus, and can become all consuming if you allow it to get the better of you. It does so very very quickly too, you can be eating and something can bubble up from your subconscious, perhaps a memory of an unsavoury fact about your woman’s past, or a little thing that stood out in the way she behaved in a public setting… your imagination can run with that, and your… Read more »
@earl, Tam & Rollo: Informed Antihypervigilance?
@ D-man. SUPERB post. I haven´t seen anything coming close to it in months here. Pure, cold, truth. “Women, consciously or not, are natural masters at peering into the hearts of men, seeing WHICH PARTS OF HIMSELF HE DOES NOT KNOW, and setting the hooks there.” I am trying to tell the same but I am not able to put it so clearly. POSSESS yourself, that is the answer. Then you have the power, the freedom and only than you can interact with women WITHOUT danger of enslavement. I partly disagree with “cynic” and “sceptic”. You just have to be… Read more »
Women come, women go, all women are fungible. In addition to the Sperm Wars “controversy” there is Sperm Heteromorphism. It occurs in other species, there is absolutely no reason why not humans. Humans as a species are very resistant to seeing ourselves as animals and examining ourselves like we examine animals. Psychologically we see ourselves as special – no, we are not special little snowflakes. There was a reason it evolved in animals and insects, therefore there is no “special” reason why it didn’t evolve in us. Regarding the Semen Displacement Theory: the author was Gordon Gallup of State University… Read more »
“This is an important dynamic to understand when we consider possessiveness. A man with an Alpha disposition would be less possessive, and therefore display an indifference to possessing any particular woman due to his condition of (relative) sexual abundance.”
Interesting… in following that is that why I have seen 3 sep women cheat or leave their husbands, with their husbands being cool with them going out for the monthly / weekly GNO, the guys running their own businesses or being VP level guys?
@ARLT, Alpha is a state of mind, not a demographic.
You know, I have a suspicion that one of the more difficult-to-swallow aspects of the red pill for many Christians is the fact that when one examines the reality of gender interactions and sexual strategies with eyes wide open, it becomes glaringly obvious that the precious little angels(and men) ARE acting on instinct no matter how many times you try to convince Christian women that godly traits are supposed to be sexy. It really seems like acknowledging this base, sexual reality that makes us seem like animals could be why many Christians spit the red pill back out. In other… Read more »
“I would argue that men in the grip of a divorce, or men who’ve been betrayed by cuckoldry, or men who’s ego-invested possessive natures have their investment betrayed or disqualified, they face an existential crisis. All of the existential equity they build upon women’s assurances of appreciation of it, and sending their genetic legacy into the future, is all for nothing (sometimes over half a lifetime for nothing) so it’s as if he’d never existed at all. So is it any real surprise that a man would see ending his own existence (and possibly the existence of his betrayer) as… Read more »
Rollo Dissociative indifference is the term you’re looking for Earl Or perhaps situational indifference. A man who is in agony over his woman’s bad behavior can calm himself down quite a lot by running day game on women in coffee joints & other places, because in so doing he discovers or rediscovers that he has options. And a man with options cannot suffer from oneitis. A man with options can look at possible dissolution of an LTR or marriage with more aplomb; sure, it might be inconvenient to have to find another woman, but there will be another woman. And… Read more »
ARLT -” you can’t eat steak every night. Now and then a plate of sphaghetti helps to keep your desire for steak alive” – Osho
Wow. Every article opens my eyes even further. I just want to say how much all of this is helping me. Having taken the “red pill” 9 months ago, I’m just getting used to seeing women clearly. It’s interesting, I don’t get angry when the lion kills the wildebeast, and am no longer angry at women. I have an interesting story as I have an alpha disposition but was unconscious of game and also had the stupid romantic idea of love and male seflessness. So I would attract high status women over and over again but had no idea how… Read more »
Re: devotion. Although I think that, like female orgasm is vestigial, female eros (romatic love) is a faint echo of male eros, I think a woman can be devoted to, or adore, or be head-over-heels-in-love-with, however you want to term it, a particular man who doesn’t want her love. In accord with your relevant maxim, I no longer believe a woman is capable of truly loving a man who wants her true love. (But I know she could force herself to behave as if she so loved him.) Men tend to latch in pair bonds in romantic love, in a… Read more »
Rollo: Many thanks for this article, which I have also read in conjunction with ‘Casualties’. Irrespective of the other excellent (but largely rarionalised) comments in this post, I am curious as to whether your sister-in-law feels any remorse about your brother-in-laws’ suicide (I suspect not), and also what your niece’s/nephew’s attitude and feelings are towards his/her mother regarding his/her late father’s death. I do not expect you to answer out of respect for the privacy of grief, but I raise the question to the extent that I do not think I could condone any conduct which so crushes another’s spirit… Read more »
Possessiveness and jealousies are part of a deeper pathology of co-dependence where the co-dependent only gets joy from the validation of the girl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan#Personal_life Millan became a permanent resident of the U.S. in 2000, became a U.S. citizen in 2009, and lives in Santa Clarita, California. He married Ilusión Wilson in 1994, with whom he had two sons, André (b. 1995) and Calvin (b. 2001). In June 2010, Millan announced his divorce. His wife, Ilusión Millan, filed for divorce, seeking primary physical custody of their children with visitation for Cesar, as well as spousal support. The divorce agreement stipulates that Millan pay his ex-wife a single payment of US$400,000, a monthly spousal payment of US$23,000 and US$10,000 for monthly child support, and that… Read more »
Rollo said, “A lot of my readers got irate with me when I suggested that if their girlfriends or wives wanted to head out with the girls for a GNO they should, as indifferently as possible, let them go.” I did exactly that in 2010. I let her go. I busted her having two affairs not long after that. In hindsight, my radar should have been up. If you notice a change in your wife’s behavior, then something is up. It sounds a bit extreme when I suggest that you randomly “check up” on your wife with the latest spy… Read more »
I don’t think you even need a theory of hypergamy to explain why someone gets bored after 20 years of marriage.
Interesting reference to César Millán’s attempted suicide in 2010 – this completely passed me by. Millán’s Dog Whisperer TV series met with international acclaim in the UK and Australia as well as in the US. I recall that Millán made mention that he had had to set-up one of his dog rehabilitation centres in the California countryside because his wife Ilusión was unhappy at the number of dogs in the house. Certainly, from his TV shows, it was very clear that Millán was dedicated to his family. There is a cruel (some might say predictable) irony that Ilusión Millán decided… Read more »
It sounds a bit extreme when I suggest that you randomly “check up” on your wife with the latest spy tech out there
Maybe, maybe not…consider this book review by Matt Forney of “The Key Logger”.
Women’s total Internet activity synopsis:
30% arguing on facebook with women about what other women said about other women
30% looking at images of babies and cats
40% window shopping for shoes
jf12 – A slight adjustment, if I may to cater for an activity I think you may have missed: Women’s internet activity synopsis (revised): :: 35% arguing on facebook with women about what other women said about other women :: 30% looking at images of babies and cats :: 35 % window shopping for shoes :: 5% checking secret online dating profiles and messaging potential beta orbiters (aka ‘running a virus scan’) The Facebook book point you make was actually a cause of an employment grievance at one place where I worked. By the time I had bought my wife… Read more »
Ugh. A life expectancy of 40 doesn’t mean everyone dies at 40. For example, the US’s low LE among developed countries is heavily influenced by child mortality, including the fact that we count the death of premies as deaths rather than stillbirths. Back to primitive societies: for each infant that dies before their first birthday, there might be one person that lives to 80, or two that live to 60, or one that lives to 20 and a second that lives to 80. Given saber-toothed tigers and poison mushrooms, a LE of 40 means that many adults had to live… Read more »
WOW! Did not know that Cesar had attempted suicide, thought HE was the one to ask for the divorce. WOW!
The source for different sperm morphology can be found in Robin Baker’s book Sperm Wars.
Unfortunately, can’t find any material on the internet linking his videos or excerpts of his books. Used to be able to, but either removed due to copyright issues, or more sinisterly, by the PC brigade which does not want the “true nature” of women exposed ?
Add Cesar Millan to the list of men shafted by the epidemic of gold-digging whores:
Foraging/Farming, interesting observation.
“If you don’t mind, may I have a source please for your assertion that the shape of the human penis evolved to scoop out a competitors’ sperm?”
Just watch a few “creampie gangbang” videos and the purpose of the ridge of the head becomes obvious. The lack of fossilized penii makes further examination of how it came be more difficult.
Oh hey jf12 & talorofs, the advent of Twitter has impacted the profile heavily. I’d sub out maybe 15% minimum of the “arguing with other women” with :: sitting on Twitter, relentlessly hunting down any D-list and above TV “celebrity”, cook, actor, journo, comedian/other assorted attention-whore. and yapping sycophantically along, in the hope of getting a “personalized reply” (i.e. included in the hashtag mess in the Famous Entity’s subsequent tweetery, or other acknowledgement). It’s like a personal Assumption for them, accessorizing the Personal Jesus of course, and gets shotgunned over every antisocial media channel available. Be envious, you little people!… Read more »
@talorofs I’ve been a network admin for my employees for decades. Although erotica may be women’s porn in print, I assure you shoes are women’s internet porn. Regarding jealousy, my wife is an artsy type and was doing photo editing and layouts for print shops when I married her. Anyway she has a lot of male followers on pinterest and elsewhere, in contrast to almost all other females. The resulting jealousy of many other females, including some of her close friends, is palpable, and they often block her for spite and then unblock her later. (This blocking and unblocking is… Read more »
Re: scooping. It doesn’t do that great a job. If it evolved for that job then it has barely begun optimizing. It should be common knowledge that when a woman has sex with multiple men in a short period of time, all of their sperm are easily detectable, no matter what order they went in. If it is supposed to be not well known then I’ll cite a few examples. Moreover it has never been shown that last-in-first-fertilize. Never.
@Lion “I did exactly that in 2010. I let her go. I busted her having two affairs not long after that. In hindsight, my radar should have been up. If you notice a change in your wife’s behavior, then something is up. ” Aye, context is key isn’t it? If the gal makes a annual/bi-annual night out with her friends whom you’ve known for years to go try a new sushi restaurant, ok, that’s cool. If the gal has never or rarely ever had GNO and then suddenly wants them, especially with a bunch of new “friends” she met at… Read more »
I’m pretty sure the head of the penis took on the shape it did so your hand doesn’t slip off and hit you in the face while you’re masturbating. Speaking of possession, there was a movie called Possession by Andrzej Zulawski. If you want to see a fucked up possessive relationship, that one definitely fits the bill. My friend always tells me that he wishes he was still a virgin and never got involved with women at all, ever, period. He lost everything and his entire life was turned upside down because he focused on women instead of himself. There’s… Read more »
If you are not willing to lose her, you’ve already lost her.
So many things to say about this article, I hardly know where to start, but the first of which is WELL DONE Rollo. Next up: “So is it any real surprise that a man would see ending his own existence (and possibly the existence of his betrayer) as a logical – not to mention easy – conclusion to a life that never had even a marginal significance?” An incredibly powerful point. But Rollo, you just justified murder as “logical”, by illustrating that insecurity is the prime motivator for this man’s life (and many others, I’d imagine). The decision may have… Read more »
But Rollo, you just justified murder as “logical”, by illustrating that insecurity is the prime motivator for this man’s life (and many others, I’d imagine). The decision may have be understandable in an empathetic sense, and he might have seen it as logical at the time, but there is nothing logical about it. You are making extreme beta-ism seem more and more like a mental disorder. I’d argue that ONEitis, however extreme, is in fact a mental disorder – but you’d know that if you took any time to read through this blog as I’ve repeatedly suggested you do. I… Read more »
Rollo, I would love to have the time and dedication to read every one of your articles, but you are a prolific writer, your articles are lengthy, complex, and full of links and jargon for the initiated, which I then have to research. Plus I have multiple other forums i participate in, some of which contradict yours, several books I’m reading, a demanding full time job, I run two households, I take courses, I’m an aspiring writer, and am starting a business. Humor me a little, would you? Sometimes I just have to figure it out as I go along.… Read more »
Justified? No, but I understand why.
She does sound like a talk show host
LT wants you to know—-Look at me. I’m soo special and important. Truth takes too long. I know how I FEEL about this anyway. Bye for now new and future orbiters…..
Example of everything that’s wrong
(also for fun and insight count her “I” usage)
Jack of all trades, master of none. When one spreads themselves thin there will be places which are weak and unsupported. Knowledge is not power when knowledge is sparse, lacking or limited. A strong argument is built with time focused and devoted to understanding the subject, not just another chip added to a collection of hobbies. It wouldn’t be a good thing to be operated on by a doctor who had insufficient knowledge of the procedure because his time was diverted by other interests. Or one could hope he’s good at figuring it out as he goes along.
Added some new designs. Thoughts?
LT: “Professionals” have basically become idols — icons for mindless worship. Modern medical tests are based around what pharmaceutical drugs’ patents are still in force, not on what’s actually biologically appropriate. I was disillusioned with psychiatry a very long time ago, and it’s very similar to disillusionment with relationships. You’re told that if you just do x, y, and z, everything will be okay. And if you don’t follow the rules, then anything bad that happens to you is your fault, because you didn’t follow the very clearly established standards — shame on you! If your relationship didn’t work out,… Read more »
Fair point, softek, most people I know who’ve sought counselling don’t come out much better off than they were when they started. It’s most likely an easy money-grab.
Anyway, sad state of affairs all around.
The overall lesson is kill your beta before he kills you.
[…] make it so – I reckon his writing to be humanist. Rollo’s most recent piece on “Possession” is concerned specifically with both how bad an idea it is for men to be possessive of women […]
Scooping existential equity.
It’s a bit difficult to not over invest when all of your disposable income goes to your ex.
LT: A quote from James Stockdale comes to mind: “You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.” In doing independent research in nutrition and physiology, particularly drawing a lot from the work of Ray Peat, I’ve found an incredible amount of not only hope, but actual success, in terms of my own depression, anxiety, fatigue and other issues like insomnia, where psychiatry failed me. It is a sad state of affairs, and there are… Read more »
@Softek: “People need each other. Humans are extremely social animals, and it’s really important that we don’t forget how valuable it is to feel loved and connected.”
On the whole you might find it a case of too little, too late.
@BlackPoisonSoul: I actually wasn’t familiar with that idiom. That says it all. I’ve been in the emergency room and put in the mental hospital on suicide watch a couple times before, and even these days I still wonder if I’m going to end up ending my own life. Once that digs its way into your brain, I’m not sure if it ever goes away. I struggle very, very hard — directly in proportion to how afraid I am to face the reality that too little, too late is how it ends up for a lot of people in this world,… Read more »
“D-Man, January 8th, 2014 at 3:02 pm: …There is no woman in this day and age, who is physically beautiful, who has no history at all, who will be completely devoted to you through to her core, and never size you up, and who has zero imagination when it comes to other men. Not with the way they’re wired, and certainly not with the encouragement they get from the culture at large….There is no possessing them. Great men have come undone in the attempt.” Absolutely freaking right. Excellent post. One of the results of all this is that American culture… Read more »
Alpha is results, not a mindset.
Alpha is a result of a mindset
As a few comments on recent posts regarding the “male hamster” have been made, it appears the conception that males are more than capable of rationalizing their situation may be garnering importance. Let us look at this post as an example. First, Rollo makes the claim that “He was by no means a saint, and for all of his dedication to his family and wife, his main fault was his possessiveness;” and “On some level of consciousness he knew, by happenstance, an unplanned pregnancy and an early marriage, that he’d married well above what his realized SMV would’ve normally merited.”… Read more »
And on a not entirely unrelated note, Rollo’s use of “going feral” is still incoherent.
How is leaving your husband in a society which has normalized divorce “reverting to a wild state?”
Nearly all of Rollo’s posts regard using evo-psych or similar to explain things in a supposedly “objective” manner, but then he inserts an enormous (and antisocial) value judgement into what defines domestication.
jf12 on women in social media
(This blocking and unblocking is yet another characteristically female cycle.)
Very similar to the “I’m leaving! I won’t talk with you people any more! I”m done!” comments routinely left by women on this and other reality-based men’s sites — almost always followed by another comment, from the same woman, sometimes only a few minutes later.
oh living tree. this is going to sound harsh, but thats ok. you need to understand finally how the superior man considers you, lest you think that the experiences that form the ……adolescence…. of your thoughts are anything but whisps of reason and momentary electrical and chemical impulses that are crossing the barrier between your hypothalamus/amygdala and underutilized pre-frontal cortex. your ability to concisely convey your damaged hypothesis are imoressive sure, but remember that even when you win the Special Olympics you are still retarded. my favorite quote for girls like you: “To be disappointed in women is like being… Read more »
Here it is Tilikum. It is not at all surprising that the very next post after the conversation turned to productively discussing a serious “men’s” issue, several of you deftly raced back in to do your sacrificial manly duty – distract attention away from it, and back on to the scapegoat, so your comrades never have to face the unsightly shame of personal disclosure. Do you understand the part you just played in creating and protecting the intricate system of deflection which keeps men down? Sub-matrix, gents. Temet nosce. Did you really think it would be as easy as getting… Read more »
A woman is coddled to embrace her envy and solipsism from when she can first talk.
sad, but there it is.
@AR, yes, good example. Another is that when a woman is in charge of a blog site then she tends to prohibit commenters much more willynilly than when a man is in charge. I think the overarching principle may be best described as saying women are a lot snittier than men.
Rollo, here is a link to to the Spike Jones movie “Her” with Joquin Phoenix and Scarlet Johanson. I thought you might wish to see it and then write about it. It is on PutLocker and it is a site I trust infinitely. When the page comes up, click on the button, “Continue as Free User”. Usually, the way the site is monetized, it pops up other pages. Just kill those popups. The original page will then show a flash player box with a still of the movie. There will be two white boxes with a “play” arrow in them.… Read more »
At this point, Rollo never draws the conclusion that the sister-in-law leaving was the brother-in-law’s fault, He said that he wasn’t making a point about what her motivations where, so why would he make any conclusion. Although that is the usual response, commonly seen from the numerous talk shows on, that the man leaving is him being greedy, shallow, typical man,etc… while a woman leaving means the man drove her away, or couldn’t keep her,etc… Your comment saying that the millionaire swept her away also furthers the removal of culpability on the part the woman that you commonly hear. The… Read more »
I want to see “Her” also, but I know that the reason he wrote it and what it’s about is probably going to get turned into either the “men so insecure” or “men learning how to treat a woman” crap. Or some combination of both.
Or the “men can only fall in love with fantasy” crap. Or the “great women don’t exist in reality” crap. Or the “sharing your life with another person is the most important thing ever” crap. Or the “marriage is the inevitable outcome of a mature relationship” crap. Or the “real love is wonderful and uplifting all the time” crap. Or the “real relationships require compromise” crap. Or the “its easier to love someone when there’s no mundane daily reality getting in the way” crap. Or the “judgement kills love” crap. Or the “the only thing that matters is love” crap.… Read more »
Rollo, your posts and responses are gold… Your book is next on my list to buy for my sons and friends. The intrusion of “red-pill women” like SSM (who may well be a wonderful choice for her mate) and the far more disgusting and deliberately toxic Aunt Giggles. Clearly this growth of “RPW” is showing the typical (and naturally hypergamous) feminine position. The main source of this, A. Kay’s MMSL. MMSL is clearly helping many former “blue-pill” sad-sack “beta” (Delta/Gamma/Omega) men who have become at best “the Bux”. This intrusion of women filtering in and around this community may well… Read more »
A woman who is not willing to admit that she is capable of causing great injury cannot call herself a “red pill woman.” Few women will be able to resist conditions that cause others to fall. Not experiencing those conditions is not the same as rising above them. Being red pill means understanding the damage you are capable of inflicting and holding yourself back. Its about control: not of others, but of yourself.
Your comment saying that the millionaire swept her away also furthers the removal of culpability on the part the woman that you commonly hear. No. The line was “when a millionaire showed up to sweep his wife away” and in the next paragraph it clearly states The only clear thing is that the decision was and would not be made by either the brother-in-law or Rollo. I can see why he uses a term like “going feral”. Sure. The point is to juxtapose the concept of “feral” with the commonly held view of appropriate behavior. However, his view of appropriate… Read more »
T you should probably read The Pet to get a better idea of what I mean by ‘going feral’
He said that he wasn’t making a point about what her motivations where, so why would he make any conclusion. Although that is the usual response, commonly seen from the numerous talk shows on, that the man leaving is him being greedy, shallow, typical man,etc… while a woman leaving means the man drove her away, or couldn’t keep her,etc… Sure. The point of the comment was that much of the manosphere’s efforts are spent hamsterbating about the outcomes of situations which were not in their control. It is a form of “treatment.” The “treatment” is effective (that is to say,… Read more »
T you should probably read The Pet to get a better idea of what I mean by ‘going feral’
I understand of your meaning. It is incoherent within the context of the rest of your work.