Love Story

Blue-Valentine-stills-blue-valentine-25345256-1280-852

Among my more controversial essays is my series on the differences in interpretations of love as specific to each gender. As I’ve elaborated before Men approach love from idealistic foundations, while due to their innate hypergamy, women’s approach to love is rooted in opportunism. The easy rebuttal to this that often comes from women is to presume that either sex’s life experiences are going to necessarily be different. Women cannot fully appreciate the male experience (much less validate it) unless they can actually become men and live in a lifetime of their experiences, their upbringing, their biology, their acculturation and societal conditioning.

Yes, I am aware that it works both ways, men cannot fully appreciate women’s existential experiences either and for the same reason, however that doesn’t excuse either gender from making an effort to better understand the other’s experience. In a social environment where the feminine perspective has primacy, it has been women who have been the arbiters of what should universally be the socially agreed upon definition of what love means to both sexes.

However, this hasn’t stopped men from trying to define love for themselves, and make efforts to make women see how they would like their love to be in idealistic terms. History is rife with examples of men, in every culture, venturing to make women understand and really grasp their idealized notion of love. From ancient love poems, to epic stories of one woman launching a thousand ships, to Romeo and Juliet, Men have attempted to educate women on how they would be loved, and how they would like to love.

As I’ve detailed before, once a man really unplugs from his feminine conditioning he becomes more sensitive to the world that’s been pulled over his eyes. Hearing common terms in conversation that belie a feminine mindset, listening to songs that drip with male self-sacrifice for women, understanding why certain themes in popular media resonate with culture is all part of this new sensitivity. One thing the red pill has has made me keenly aware over time is the difference in storytelling that applies to each gender.

It would be too easy an assumption to say that I have a better awareness as to which gender is telling a particular story, but rather, I have a keener sensitivity to which gender perspective a story is originating from now – and particularly when that story involves specific gender approaches to love. I could single out the stories of Emily Bronte and compare them with the formulaic themes of modern romance novels or romantic comedy movies, but that would be easy and expected. Any women’s studies major could tell you this. What I’m interested in is how the genders interpret each other’s idealized concepts of love.

Example 1

Titanic, 1997. Arguably one of the greatest love stories ever put on film. I can remember adult women of the time who literally were incapable of going to work or doing much of anything else the day after watching this movie. I can remember women I dealt with professionally bursting into tears because they were so wracked with vicarious imagined grief – this is the psychological impact Titanic had, don’t even get me started on the teenage girls of the time.

A lot went on in Titanic from a feminine-romanticized perspective. It’s definitely an epic fairytale, and one that has all of the formulaic elements of a classic love story. Rich beautiful girl, scrappy-poor-but-Alpha-and good looking hero who draws girl into his reality. Tragic, but sacrificial death of said hero to save her and ensure her a better life.

I’ve linked the last few minutes of Titanic here because it’s really the summation of the entire story. The former beauty, now old woman, Rose still pines for her Alpha she lost so long ago. This scene epitomizes the concept of the Alpha Widow — As the heart that was given to her by her Alpha sinks to the bottom of the ocean, we pan across photos of all of her life experiences afforded to her by Jack’s sacrifice; the beauty queen, the mother, the Amelia Earhart-esque (have it all fantasy) pilot, horseback rider and finally she can return to her Alpha in death.

Example 2

Saving Private Ryan, 1998. Released just one year later, Saving Private Ryan debuts. Also, arguably one of the greatest, heroic and epic stories put to film from an unarguably masculine perspective. Where Titanic relies on a clever retelling of classic and tested romantic themes, SPR explores distinctly male themes of honor, duty, courage, service and also sacrifice. Captain Miller’s sacrifice is of a decidedly different nature, but the premise is the same — self-sacrifice for the betterment of another individual. As Captain Miller dies his last words are “Earn this.” Merit this, be worthy of this.

Granted, more men than just Captain Miller die on Ryan’s behalf, but he’s the protagonist and the one we really care about as his death is personalized for us. In an almost analogous ending to Titanic (linked) we see the elderly Ryan contemplating his life and wondering if he’d “earned it” with what he’d done with his life. And in classic form he seeks that affirmation from a woman, his wife.

“Tell me I’ve led a good life. Tell me I’m a good man.”

We can tell there’s no connection, no familiarity of Ryan’s experience shared with his wife. Her response is just this side of a patronizing dismissal of the imagined concerns of an old man. We can presume Ryan has led a somewhat good life, he’s still married, probably has kids, but nowhere is the have it all fantasization that an elderly Rose enjoys. We still don’t know if Ryan had ‘earned it’, if his life’s performance was good enough; the pat on the cheek from his oblivious wife doesn’t confirm it, but that’s the operative difference between Ryan’s character and Rose’s — Rose’s good life was never expected to have been earned.

Almost serendipitously Mac commented on my Sorry,.. post this evening:

I was picked on as a boy and decided at a very young age to fight back by outdoing all my naysayers. All the people that tell you your not good enough, smart enough or talented enough… So I became the antithesis of their projections and surpassed all my personal goals. It’s more than just getting the girl… It’s about conquering “your” world!

Men are expected to perform. To be successful, to get the girl, to live a good life, men must do. Whether it’s riding wheelies down the street on your bicycle to get that cute girl’s attention or to get a doctorate degree to ensure your personal success and your future family’s, Men must perform. Women’s arousal, attraction, desire and love are rooted in that conditional performance. The degree to which that performance meets or exceeds expectations is certainly subjective, and the ease with which you can perform is also an issue, but perform you must.

There is one final movie that I would use as an illustration of gender-differential love approaches and that is the movie Blue Valentine. I would link some clips here but I think it’s probably best to watch it in its entirety to really understand the principle differences between men and women’s idealized love.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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donalgraeme
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Question for Rollo and his readers:

How many serious and respected romantic/love story novels or movies are there where the woman sacrifices her life for her man?

Related to that, what kinds of sacrifice are common/expected of women to make for their man in novels and movies?

Bobb Dobbs
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Since being introduced to the concept of hypergamy in the last year or so, I began noticing when it appeared in movies. I was finding quite a few examples but didn’t write them down and now most escape my memory. I can recall a few, though. For instance for us libertarian types, there is the recent two part, soon to be three part adaption of Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged. Dagny Taggart is hypergamous. She starts out with the heir to a copper mining fortune but dumps him when he apparently becomes a worthless playboy. Next she has an affair with… Read more »

sal ceech
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After reading this I googled the movie “Blue Valentine”.I looked for a plot summary and spoiler alert.The site gave a nicely done summary plot. it enhanced Rollo (BTW thanx for finding an example that highlighted the dynamics ) your insights in the differences about ideas of love. I’m thankful I did not see this movie in a theatre . I don’t have a good stiff upper lip .I would have done a fast walk to the can.Now let’s say somebody did an ABC,s type of “What would you do” formula at the cinema .After getting it together I would tell… Read more »

aneroidocean
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something that always bothered me when I saw titanic was that he sacrificed his life for her and yet the Damn door she was on looked plenty big enough for the both of them and on top of that she didn’t even protest or lift a finger to try to help him hang on. such a shitty show of love from her and it made me angry even though i was full blue pill at the time

The Burninator
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Same here aneroidocean, the entire movie made me rather ill to watch. It was beautifully filmed and quite well done from a technical perspective, and of course we all knew their would be no sequel going in (thank God). But the premise of “good man with great talent sacrifices life so rich spoiled fluff bunny can go live a full life” was and is absurd to its rotten core. My sister and most other women I knew at the time were in Full Frontal Swoon about this flick, but I really had no time for it, nor their paening away… Read more »

earl
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earl
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Women surely can’t appreciate the male experience…but they want all the perks of it without doing the hard work every male must go through to get it.

I think that’s where a lot of our frustrations come from.

walawala
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The problem with the Blue Valentine scenario is that until they understand game and unplugging from the Matrix, THAT is how most guys act. I watched it and laughed and cringed. We have all done this. The point is to know when to say when. The Ryan Gosling character believes that if he just loves the daughter and demonstrates his “love” that chick will come back. She doesn’t and won’t. This for many women is “love” someone who idealizes them. But as the movie points out, as soon as they become idealized they lose interest…fast. I read somewhere about Pimp… Read more »

Kate
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Women do not (except in rare occasions) sacrfice for men. Their role is to sacrifice for children. So a man sacrificing for a woman who is not sacrificing for a child may seem offensive, but, even still, he is sacrificing not so much for her personally as for her biologically; he is saving her womb in order to further life and the species. Women should not be held to men’s standards, rather they should be held to their own set of high standards.

The Burninator
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Yet, Kate, men are naturally held to women’s “high standards” without a second thought every single day, and when we don’t meet up to female standards we’re told to “man up”. Hell, most of society is geared towards effeminizing men these days. How does that manage to work out precisely? We’re held to your standards, but we’re not allowed to hold you to much more logical and rational male standards? Typical female double standard, if you ask me. Why would a man save a woman’s womb for another man, btw? If she’s his wife or family, ok sure, but I… Read more »

Kate
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” If she’s his wife or family, ok sure, but I have no interest in saving a stranger’s womb for some gangbanger to knock up after I’m dead.” Okay, so, let me ask you a question. You’re on the street and a woman is about to be hit by a car. You have no knowledge of her background: she could be a married, virtuous mother, or she could be a feminist. Can you truly say that you would be able to override your natural instinct to protect her and just let her be hit by the car? Or would you… Read more »

The Burninator
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Kate, I’d save anybody in that situation, man, child or woman. I do not do so in order to “save a womb” for the species, I do so because I value human life in general. Reality doesn’t serve your femme centric claims with your example. It may serve “preserve the species” though I doubt anybody thinks of it in those terms, but “womb” and “women centric” do not apply. My disagreement was with your framing of saving a woman due to her womb. False. If she’s your bride or family, maybe, even possibly correct. A random stranger? Saving her womb… Read more »

The Burninator
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Furthermore, my original question about holding men and women both to women’s standards exclusively, while allowing women to roam free of mens’ standards as you wish, remains.

Monad
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Maybe women have never appreciated men’s actual lived experience, they didn’t have to and that is part of what is sacred in masculinity. However women have, as a consequence to their shortsightedness and general consideration of only their own well-being (solipsism), supposedly entered into the masculine realm in recent times, without an ounce of insight that it was men’s blood, sweat and tears that built society progressively over time, so women could delude themselves into accomplishing such. Yet it was men who have made their own roles superfluous ironically by fulfilling those roles. Of course when the dangerous, hardship and… Read more »

earl
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The best way a man can have a woman enter his experience is impregnating her.

Women have been deluded into thinking pushing papers and sex without procreation is power. They’ve been castrated.

earl
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earl
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So basically these sissified churchian “men” are promoting a timid spirit in men…not what Paul said.

For this reason I remind you to kindle a fresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.

2 Timothy 1:6-10

If the Holy Spirit has anything to do with the FI in it…that is not the Holy Spirit.

Kate
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@ The Burninator: You are free to disagree, but it is my opinion that you would be more likely to save a woman than a man, just as I would be more likely to save a child than a man. Otherwise, why would men in the military complain that having women seve with them is disruptive? Their call is to protect their country (including their women and children), but the women’s presence actually, and ironically, interferes with dispensing their duty. No, people don’t conciously register most of the interplay that drives their decisions. You don’t think you save a person… Read more »

Josh
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Kate, if women are as hardwired to save children as men are to save women, why are so many women vehemently pro abortion and why do mothers tend to go crazy and kill their children more than fathers do?

The Burninator
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@Kate Josh kind of blew your assertion out of the water regarding “saving children”. A lot of domestic abuse of children is actually from women as well. Tens of millions of aborted chillins’ flies right in the face of any “hard wiring” you may presume regarding women. As to “far more likely”, you are wrong. You don’t get to disagree with that, I know my inclinations, and I have in fact helped in saving a man from drowning (oddly, he had no womb). If he had been co-drowning with a woman, I would have went with whomever was closer first,… Read more »

Kate
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I don’t know, Josh, but I’ll hazard a few guesses. Re abortion: a hypergamous woman is driven to create the best possible spawn. It might be that the father doesn’t measure up to her standards and the woman concludes the child is unfit. If women dismiss sexual experiences as not counting, it isn’t that far of a leap to feel that a conception didn’t count. There is a play by Henrik Ibsen titled Hedda Gabler about a woman who shoots herself to prevent bearing the child of an “unworthy” mate. (Ibsen was a fascinating playwright who focused on all kinds… Read more »

Jeremy
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I can’t stomach Titanic, never could. It always felt like a gluttonous indulgence of the feminine. SPR, on the other hand, made me cry, but not as much as the final episode of Band of Brothers. @aneroidocean …something that always bothered me when I saw titanic was that he sacrificed his life for her and yet the Damn door she was on looked plenty big enough for the both of them… 1) It wouldn’t be a female romance movie without the guy dying for his woman. 2) She would be just as dead as he was only 20 minutes later,… Read more »

Jeremy
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Also, if you want the most sickening example of a blue-pill man, watch about the first 20 minutes of the movie “The Shipping News”. Kevin Spacey NAILS the blue pill man.

Jeremy
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@Kate …You’re on the street and a woman is about to be hit by a car. You have no knowledge of her background: she could be a married, virtuous mother, or she could be a feminist. Can you truly say that you would be able to override your natural instinct to protect her and just let her be hit by the car?… Yes, I can say that. It wasn’t upbringing that overrode that instinct, it was just frankly being burned by women too often in young adulthood and since. Women as a society in the developed world have asked to… Read more »

Josh
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The simplest explation seems to be that, on average, a woman’s mental fortitude is not the same as a man’s: not necessarily intelligence but strength of mind.

No, the simplest conclusion is that you’re wrong.

Tilikum
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kate,

men discern, women nurture.

the bitch dies. sorry.

Kate
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Tilikum: Men swear; women care smile

earl
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“It might be that the father doesn’t measure up to her standards and the woman concludes the child is unfit.”

Then why is she having sex with him in the first place? Or did the standards change on her whims?

I think the reliving their burden is probably the best answer. And they don’t care that those burdens are other human beings. That’s as low as a person can get.

deti
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“Men are expected to perform. To be successful, to get the girl, to live a good life, men must do. Whether it’s riding wheelies down the street on your bicycle to get that cute girl’s attention or to get a doctorate degree to ensure your personal success and your future family’s, Men must perform. Women’s arousal, attraction, desire and love are rooted in that conditional performance. The degree to which that performance meets or exceeds expectations is certainly subjective, and the ease with which you can perform is also an issue, but perform you must.” Here we go again. Before… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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@kate – nice attempt to control the narrative in a male space. @everyone else – why are you feeding the troll? Plus you’re trying to mansplain to her: that’s just gonna piss her off. She’s not thinking, she’s emoting – and you’re feeding her hamster into warp-speed. From: The Sixteen Commandments of Poon: III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority. So a woman’s bleating’s are irrelevant. She can stay or go, what she says means nothing. IV. Don’t play by her rules. Got that? In trying to mansplain to her, you’re just giving her fuel and… Read more »

Sisyphus
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+1, BlackPoison. On all counts.

Rollo Tomassi
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And as if almost on cue red pill reddit delivers the goods for the “where are the hard facts on this male love idealism you preach of?” http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1nzcls/study_women_are_not_fools_for_love_and_have_a/ ABSTRACT A widely held belief exists that women are more romantic and tend to fall in love faster than men. Responses from 172 college students indicated that although both men and women believe that women will fall in love and say “I love you” first in a relationship, men reported falling in love earlier and expressing it earlier than women reported. Analyses also showed no sex differences in attitudinal responses to items… Read more »

Dreamer
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To point out something. I’m not sure how it plays in your analysis. My memory is fuzzy and I’m not sure if it is from commentary or novel adaption or original script intention. It is expanded that never made a better light bulb or did something to save a dozen others, he have to make meet that earning. The asking of “lived a good life” is not making the world better as in making a better light bulb to earn, but merely being good as in a moral man. Ryan “Earned it” by just living out life. Or so as… Read more »

( @ Y @ )
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@Kate:Okay, so, let me ask you a question. You’re on the street and a woman is about to be hit by a car. You have no knowledge of her background: she could be a married, virtuous mother, or she could be a feminist. Can you truly say that you would be able to override your natural instinct to protect her and just let her be hit by the car? Or would you be unable to fight biology and try to save her, possibly dying in the process. My point is: theory is one thing. Reality is another.”” Who says men… Read more »

andrew
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http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/society-and-culture/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html

I had to laugh when I read this article, women are becoming overtly aware of the smp and squirming in their closing windows. EVERYTHING in rollos blogs becomes apparent in this article. It honestly brought a smile to my face.

Kate
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@DoubleDs: I’d love to continue the discussion, but I have a bridge to guard. Please stand by for the next available scapegoat wink

earl
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Men should fall in love faster…but it should be based on how quick the woman falls in respect of him.

Miserman
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One of the things I noticed in these two examples is how each path of “love” ultimately affects others. In Titanic, Rose keeps the best of herself to herself and then selfishly throws it back to the ocean without regard to anyone else. In Saving Private Ryan, Ryan is driven to live for others, for his deceased captain (“Earn this”), his wife (“Tell me I’ve lived a good life”), and his country (the final salute). It always bothered me that at the end of the film Rose did not give the diamond to the treasure hunter, Brock. Given his change… Read more »

jonas
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jonas
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look what i just found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ5nkBVINr0

–> hypergamy responding to a changed marketplace

The Burninator
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Scapegoat?

Good gravy Kate, you brought this on yourself. You called for men to continue to be judged by women’s rules, and for women to not have to face up to judgement by the rules of men. And now you’re a victim because you were called on that blatant hypocrisy?

Poison was correct, this is futile. And the hell of it is, Kate actually seems much more rational on most threads than the average woman. But end of the day, well, she is what she is.

Jeremy
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…These results indicate that women may not be the greater “fools for love” that society assumes and are consistent with the notion that a pragmatic and cautious view of love has adaptive significance for women. And really, who can doubt this? If you need more anecdotal proof, lets look at human mythology. Human myths are generally a poor reflection with amplification of human perception. For instance, are there male versions of the mermaid, the sirens song where men are tempted into feelings of love to their deaths? Are there examples in human mythology of men who tempt women into loving… Read more »

Jeremy
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@The Burninator …You {Kate} called for men to continue to be judged by women’s rules, and for women to not have to face up to judgement by the rules of men. I believe the problem in this conversation rests in the initial interpretation of Kate’s words. I don’t consider what Kate initially said to be wrong, or anything you’ve written in response to be wrong. I took Kate’s initial words: …Their {womens} role is to sacrifice for children. So a man sacrificing for a woman who is not sacrificing for a child may seem offensive, but, even still, he is… Read more »

The Burninator
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Excellent summary and clarification Jeremy. Thank you.

Jeremy
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Hell, at this point in my life and the societal conditions I live in, If my girlfriend started making me sandwiches as often as she could, my rampant paranoia would kick in and I’d be taking samples of the sandwiches to work to test them for heavy metals.

Rollo Tomassi
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Here’s a speculation I’m contemplating: The more Beta a man, the easier he ‘falls in love’ with women. From a psych standpoint it makes ‘evolutionary’ sense that the less breeding opportunities a man has (or perceives he has) the more his subconscious would be attuned to locking down monogamy with one of the few women who will commit to it. Since statistically, and historically, a majority of men would be “Betas” this would bear out in the results of the study, but also in our cultural consciousness as Jeremy has detailed (i.e. Love Stories, etc. written by men). It’s theoretically… Read more »

The Burninator
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This got me to thinking about ancient pre-Christian Germanic tribal behavior. The Saxons (and Angles…and Jutes…and Geats…and…etc) went to battle quite often, and their women stayed in the back lines. Not to assist, but to slay any retreating Saxon who, being able bodied still, dared to leave the battle before it was finished. Even if it was her father, or brother, or husband, or son. Death went to any man who would not protect the women and her children. On the other side of course was the expectation of marital fidelity, that the wife would in fact tend to the… Read more »

The Burninator
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That flying airplanes part was in reference to the movie The Titanic, btw.

earl
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If by falling in love…you mean emotional love…then yes that’s something a beta man would do much easier.

But actual love…which is more action based…is something every man MUST do.

Jeremy
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I would venture that betaness-fall-in-love-easily was a survival strategy leftover from caveman days when many more men existed in isolation and needed a mechanism for appreciating this female in their lives who would otherwise be extraneous.

thegreatshebang
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Rollo, I ordered and received your book. Many thanks and congratulations.

A suggestion if you make a second edition: add footnotes to the terms that need clarification or require an update on controversial matters.

thegreatshebang
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Rollo: Because I was very Beta, I followed an idealized dream of finding one great girlfriend. But it made me suicidal, daily, for 20 years. My freedom from this suffering is complete as I am in no risk. I don’t do anything Beta on a conscious level, but of coursewhen I do something Beta I laugh it off and attempt a correction. Now I am very, very happy spinning plates. Consider that consciousness is a very recent development and the human brain was at it’s current plastic capacity for 100000 years or more.Consciousness may be merely a language/software upgrade. Hence… Read more »

andrew
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Hey rollo, just finished read through all of your posts and about to start the book.
Im interested alot in how you’ve kept your marriage healthy so far I understand dread, soft dread amused mastery ect… Can you do a post in more detail about the importance of communication and how to manage it from becoming to a state of such familiarity that kills desire.
To much of it leads to boredom, not enough leads to to much distance. Thanks in advance

Karl
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>>> kay, so, let me ask you a question. You’re on the street and a woman is about to be hit by a car.

well. let’s ask Kate this same question. Exactly which sacrifices is she willing to make, and for who?

hoellenhund2
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This post reminded me of the idiotic female commenters on HUS insisting that Jack was a beta in the movie whereas Rose’s fiance (whatever his name was) was an alpha. Yeah right. Twats.

hoellenhund2
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youtube.com/watch?v=vA_ku7naEMQ

This Turkish guys is right about Titanic. Women loved it because Jack died in the end. He will never become fat, bitter or old. He’s immortalized in memory as the perfect alpha.

hoellenhund2
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“The problem is that society is so far removed from women being held to such a standard, that no one has any concept of what that would be like anymore. Hell, this blowup over the woman who is making her husband 500 sandwiches for an engagement ring should prove this. Women want to be held to ZERO standards at this point.” True. And it’s more than just that. Men are now held to dual standards. You’re supposed to be ambitious and single-minded to the point of psychopathy in your profession, hard-working and dependable, while at the same time constantly in… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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In other words, you’re supposed to perform well according to women’s bygone standards AND current standards at the same time. WTF?

hoellenhund2
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“The more Beta a man, the easier he ‘falls in love’ with women.”

isn’ that just common sense? Roissy also linked to a study once proving that betas, on average, produce a larger volume of ejaculate than alphas. The reason is the same: their opportunities for procreation are more limited.

New Yorker
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Beta is just another way of saying weak of mind…and not confident of his mission in life. This is the type of person who looks for salvation in other people and “falling in love” is the natural thing to do. An Alpha is capable of love, but only on his terms. An Alpha’s love is probably very similar to that of a woman’s….based only on what she does and What she is….not WHO she is. The beta loves WHO the woman is, thus blinding him to WHAT the person is.

Laguna Beach Fogey
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I’ve never seen the film ‘Titanic’–thank the gods–and I’m glad I haven’t, which has shocked many friends, acquaintances, and girlfriends over the years.

I do think men would do better for themselves to dispense with the belief in the notion of love completely.

Water Cannon Boy
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I disagree with the alpha love being similar to a woman’s. Alpha love comes from some core qualities of who and what, that if those don’t change, will keep the love going. Women’s being opportunistic is the best way I’ve heard it described recently. There can be core qualities for them that they want, but if it doesn’t translate to what can it do for them at the moment, the love doesn’t come. Side note, didn’t read the article, but saw a headline that said Kris Kardashian now says that her one regret was divorcing her previous husband the lawyer… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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By the way, the previous example of the soldier not wanting women in combat isn’t coming from some urge to protect the womb. It comes from feelings of competency. You’d find similar concerns voiced if it was a male who was too young, not athletic enough, to handle themselves. Else you find yourself doing the work of two people.
Even Batman subconsciously got tired of bailing Robin out and was a step slow on the rescue when The Joker blew him up.

Ondrej
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I watched Blue Valentine, obviously it didn’t have that heureka effect as it could have on blue pill men, but further increased my awareness regarding big life decisions – marriage – and choosing the right longer term partner when I want one + trying to stay in love and affection phases of the relationship.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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I’ll have to get to all the comments, but after just a few, had to jump in… I love movies – but they are all fantasies – even those based upon “true” events. They are an interpretation only. So, I won’t even go there. From personal events – I will tell say that in my case, my (x)wife talked about the sacrifices she made for me, for the kids. Oh, she talked and talked about how she could or couldn’t do something because of me or the kids. And I would always get the “but I have to be available… Read more »

ConnorBryant
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I think the discipline that building and maintaining a good relationship is often overlooked too.

There’s a great book on discipline, willpower and how to build them to succeed in all goals for guys over at;
http://www.learningthesteel.com
Good stuff

BlackPoisonSoul
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@Tin Man: sounds like you gave up your soul for a mess of pottage. I hope that you can get it back.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@BlackPoisonSoul Whatever I gave up, I did so freely … that is the lesson here. At the end of the day, I have three wonderful kids in my life, some very happy memories and few really good stories. But after what I know now, versus what I knew 18 years ago, I will never put a woman at the center of my life again. It’s funny, today my (x)wife and I had a chat – based upon a situation she brought on herself – but one of the things she mentioned is that during the first half our marriage, she… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Tin Man

Side Note: she does tell my youngest son from time to time how he “destroyed” her body when he was in her womb – and how she will never have the body she had before she got pregnant. Of course this is a woman that had been pregnant 5 times before (2 kids put up for adoption, one miscarriage and my three).

Your wife is a disturbed individual if she’s telling her children that.

Stingray
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Stingray
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but if I was leading, how could she succeed.

Her success is in how well she helps you to lead. If she failed, it was in failing to aid your leadership.

problem
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problem
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Hi Rollo,
is there any way to pose a personal problem to you via email and get your advice/input? I tried to find your email, but I could not find it anywhere. Could you send me your adress via mail, so I can ask you there?

Rollo Tomassi
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Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@Stingray… that’s an interesting point. In my case, the failed leadership fell squarely on my shoulders – I never learned to say NO. That set up a situation where when I started to use the word, it was too little too late – and then I stopped wanting to battle for it all. I still love my (x)wife, I really do. I wrote this earlier, and it points to my current mindset… Part of me wants my marriage back, wanting that wonderful loving wife (and me the loving husband) that we had for the first part of our marriage. Part… Read more »

New Yorker
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New Yorker
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TIn Man, I feel for your situation and agree with a lot of what you are saying about abdicating leadership. Without being too presumptuous, it sounds like you are still struggling to win your personal confidence back. That is the only reason why you still feel “love” for her. I am in the process of finishing my divorce (I hope) and although I don’t love my wife anymore, to the degree that I get wistful for how things were, it is during the tougher days. The only way to cure that “love” is to just continually challenge and push yourself… Read more »

Ton
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Ton
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Women do not love. It is beyond them. You bring the tingles and she will act loving. Its an act. Or if you have enough cash. Still an act. Thats the long and the short of it. Men will be a lot happier when they stop looking for the impossible Abortion and child abuse disproves everything Kate says about women and childern. Its more bullshit to cover how morally low women really are. We don’t want women on the line because they cannot carry their weight and fuck everything up. No interaction between men is made better by having a… Read more »

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@New Yorker

” At a certain point, you will simply respect yourself too much to love somebody who is clearly not deserving.”

I particularly like the last sentence. Thanks for the guidance. Tough stuff, but we’re Men, that’s were we thrive.

Stingray
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Stingray
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I don’t love my wife anymore, to the degree that I get wistful for how things were, it is during the tougher days. I think what New Yorker is talking about here is what you are experiencing. I’ve seen it first hand and it occurs when you are not actually in love with the woman your wife was, but who she may have been (or what you perceived her to be, or both) when you first married. You’re longing for what was. In reality, could that ever be again? I also think New Yorker is correct in that, when you… Read more »

Stingray
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Stingray
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In my case, the failed leadership fell squarely on my shoulders – I never learned to say NO. That set up a situation where when I started to use the word, it was too little too late – and then I stopped wanting to battle for it all. Understood, but that does not leave her blameless. It is any wife’s job, regardless of what her husband is doing, to aid in his ability to lead. To prop him up as leader, even when he is failing at it. While the majority of men are no longer taught how to lead… Read more »

Kate
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Kate
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“Men will be a lot happier when they stop looking for the impossible”

Men will be a lot happier when they realize what is possible.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@Stingray… Thanks for your insight. I have found over the past few years, that my (x)wife is very willing to spend time telling me where I hurt her, how I failed her and that she “didn’t even know if she was human” anymore. And I admit, we got ourselves into a situation (once again my inability to say no) that caused a significant financial strain – coupled with that, at the same time the US economy tanked, the company I worked for was purchased, they announced a reduction in staff of 30K, and I didn”t now whether I’d have a… Read more »

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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I didn’t expect (through what I believed a the time about marriage and male/female dynamics – and how I “thought the world worked”) her to move out and take my kids, lose the house, have her go off and have “relationships” with other men, or any of the other dozens of things that have happened over the past couple years. All those things, has brought me here, reading this blog, (re)educating myself. Coaching my kids differently. Even after all this shit, I miss her. But maybe it’s as Stingray said, I miss who she was, or just who I thought… Read more »

Jack
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Jack
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Off Topic but interesting, Susan Walsh has been very critical of Rollo’s SMP graph. Her latest alleged refutation of it is here: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/10/15/relationshipstrategies/myth-plummeting-female-sexual-market-value/ She cites a statistician who says: If you looked at the curve and said to yourself, “I am going to be a 10 at age 36!” you are probably only going to be a 7.5 because your whole curve has shrunk, due to you competing with a whole lot of men. There is a giant tranche of men who are 6′s and 7′s who are going to be competing for a much smaller tranche of 6-7 level… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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None. Manosphereans aren’t allowed to speak in HUSsie land. Or on the HuffPo.

Always remember, Aunt Giggles isn’t concerned with facts, only site traffic.

Rollo Tomassi
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Aunt Giggle ceased to be relevant the day she sold HUS to the HuffPo.

Jack
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Jack
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But she is directly targeting you. Its your SMP graph that she mocks. That’s why I’m wondering if you responded to her arguments. She gives multiple reasons why she thinks its wrong, including mathematical ones. I see that her perspective is very different from what it was three years ago. She is actively hostile to red-pill theory where she once embraced it.

Rollo Tomassi
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When Aunt Giggles is tired and her traffic starts to fall off she knows that calling me out will usually put her numbers back up, but this topic is really just a repeat of an older version. She’s never been interested in an honest discourse, so if she’d like to comment on an unmoderated blog, wholly owned by its proprietor she’s welcome to debate all this here. She wont because she’s a coward and a site traffic whore. But since you asked: http://www.justfourguys.com/quantifying-sexual-market-value/ http://www.justfourguys.com/womens-marriage-rates-dropping-faster-than-mens/ Oh and lets not forget the Myth of the Biological Clock: http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/02/the-myth-of-the-biological-clock/ In which I quote… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Here ya go, ask her how the 2011 Aunt Giggles gels with the 2013 Aunt Giggles:

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/15/relationshipstrategies/the-grim-beeper/

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy
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Tin Man, you have a “miss the good ol’ days” jones going right now. A serious one. What the others have said is right. You don’t miss your wife, you miss the fun you had in your life at a time you were getting along with her. I think of people who say they wish for their college days. They may have had plenty of fun, but not having to live in a noisy dorm when you wanted to sleep, not buying overpriced text books, not having to read overpriced text books, the relaxing thought of no more test or… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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If you bother to look at that NPR article, I’m sure it counts as breathtaking for many women: – the chance a 30-year-old can get pregnant in one try is less than 30 percent – for a 40-year-old, it’s less than 10 percent And if you bother to read the survey linked in the article, you’ll that even that interpretation is generous. A woman between 20 and 30 has a 20-29% chance of becoming pregnant after one month(!) of unprotected sex. (I assume it’s regular sex.) For a 40-year-old, it’s less than 10%. The research seems to be somewhat shoddy… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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“She cites a statistician who says: If you looked at the curve and said to yourself, “I am going to be a 10 at age 36!” you are probably only going to be a 7.5 because your whole curve has shrunk, due to you competing with a whole lot of men. There is a giant tranche of men who are 6′s and 7′s who are going to be competing for a much smaller tranche of 6-7 level of sexual attractiveness in women. Many will have to either settle or be alone.” Yeah. And this was posted as a comment to… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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to either her findings *or* her credentials. Sorry.

hoellenhund2
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“Here ya go, ask her how the 2011 Aunt Giggles gels with the 2013 Aunt Giggles:

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/15/relationshipstrategies/the-grim-beeper/

She will delete that post as well. She’s a Stalinist at heart.

hoellenhund2
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By the way, if you bother to read that “statistician’s” comment, you’ll see it’s so unscientific it’s ridiculous.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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WCB – I agree with you. Yesterday, I ended up speaking to my mother about this whole mess. And as I was talking, many things bubbled to the surface – lots of those things were not exactly positive (much like your point about college). It’s going on right now for the simple fact that I have to get the divorce finalized – I freely admit, I allowed myself to have the Disney fantasy even during our separation. Time to jump back to reality and deal with it. Rollo – maybe I’ve missed the point of your SMP Graph, but I… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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The latest post on HUS is linking to this: scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=study-shows-fertility-dec It isn’t linking to the study it’s discussing, which makes in unreliable to begin with, but whatever. What does it say, based on “782 couples who were using the rhythm method of contraception”? (Yeah, that’s really representative of the total population, isn’t it?) “They found that women between the ages of 19 and 26 with partners of similar age had approximately a 50 percent chance of becoming pregnant during any one menstrual cycle if they had intercourse two days prior to ovulation. For women aged 27 to 34, the chance… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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Let’s get back to the comment of that “statistician”: “Women peak sooner, but men have a broader peak.” How does that counter the assertations of the post? “with a fixed number of people in the world, equal between the sexes, you have to scale the curves so that the area under each one is the same” Why is she assuming the sex ratio is 1:1 everywhere? “E.g. the top valued man is not a “10,” ever. He’s some relatively lower value scaled by the fact that men’s sexual prime lasts longer.” How does that follow from her previous claims, which… Read more »

Ton
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Ton
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LOL, well played Water Cannon Boy, well played

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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From hoellenhund2 “And women are more likely to focus on their kids after divorce and stay out of the dating market.” Yeah right. Tell that to the hordes of single mothers sexing up alpha thugs. —- There might be research in this area, but I would hazard a guess that woman are more likely to “date” than Men after a breakup of a marriage. And to add to hoellenhund2’s point, those same single mothers may be sexing the Alphas – but they are also sexing up the Beta-provider-in-waiting – they just are just making him wait much longer. Protection (for… Read more »

Stingray
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Stingray
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Knowing that doesn’t take away some of the sadness I feel from time to time – and for the past few days, that sadness has welled back up. @ Tin Man, No, I don’t suspect it would take away the sadness. It is knowledge though, and maybe it will help you to take the wife goggles off, eventually, and see her for who she is and not the person you still want her to be. You can use the knowledge to force yourself to look at yourself and figure out what you are wishing for and then figure out instead… Read more »

itsme
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itsme
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Aunt Giggle ceased to be relevant the day she sold HUS to the HuffPo.

she ceased to be relevant about three decades ago.

hoellenhund2
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I doubt ANY female blogger can become and stay terribly relevant, as far as spreading the Red Pill is concerned.

Rollo Tomassi
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Susie likes to throw rocks at boys, but doesn’t like it when they throw them back at her.

That post was just a flimsy throw-away to generate traffic.

Archon
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Archon
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@Tin Man: jumping on a grenade is only heroic if you’re saving people worth saving. Telling your ex that it was you that fucked up is rescuing her from responsibility — but if you’re telling her that it’s your fault, then you should also be clear that it was your fault because she (as a woman) was incapable of taking leadership. Also, I know Rollo has a recent post about self-deprecation, the summary being that chicks don’t dig it. I think your two options are (1) alpha up and lead her again, and (2) alpha up and leave her behind.… Read more »

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