As Good As It Gets

goodasitgets

On several occasions I’ve gone into the pro’s and cons of marriage. I tend to get a couple of standard reactions to my take on marriage; the first is usually the binary, all or nothing response that virtually all women, and a significant number of feminized men, will throw at me after having only a cursory skim through a few of my articles. It usually goes something like,

“WTF?!! You misogynist asshole! So ALLLLLLL marriages are one-sided affairs for men, doomed to failure once a woman gets fat after pregnancy, greedy or bored and her hypergamy kicks in? My folks, grandparents, aunt & uncle et. al. are still together after ___ years so that proves that love can conquer all and you’re fulla shit.”

This is the usual response I get from deep blue-pill men and women still relying on their, feminine conditioned, ready dismissals so as not to have to actually dig any deeper into what I’ve  written about the truths of contemporary marriage and have their precious (and fragile) idol of a loving marriage challenged, and possibly destroyed.

Frames of Reference

The other reaction I get is the one I covered in Fidelity, which usually goes something like,

“Dude, how can you be a red pill Man and be married? It’s contradictory to everything you write, fuck you charlatan, I’m going back to (insert URL of PUA, MRA, MGTOW, christo-manosphere, etc. etc. site) and read up on the latest approaches.”

Again, this is usually the result of a guy without the patience to really read what I’ve posted here for the past two years, and developed in my writing over the past ten. If it seems like it’s TL;DR material  it probably wont resonate with an attention deficient reader.

Obviously in both these instances the responses come from a lack of understanding the totality of my personal history, life, Game and female experiences – which of course is what I hope readers will get a better grasp of when the book is released. I’ve had sex with over 40 women in my past, during a time when there was no such thing as formalized Game. I apply elements of Game in my line of work – the liquor, nightclub and gaming industries to be specific – and use it to my professional advantage with the women I work around and who work for me. I use aspects of Game with my daughter (Amused Mastery) and set myself as an example of the type of Man she should associate herself with – of the boys she likes we both make a point of distinguishing the chumps from the more confident and dominant guys. I observe elements of Game while reconditioning greyhounds. I’ve even recently used an AMOGing technique to get a better interest rate and price on a new car I purchased this year – and I only did it to see if it would work.

The Measure of Game

There is an element in the manosphere that will tell you that the only real form of Game, the only legitimate, measure of Game is how many women you’ve successfully banged in your pursuit of perfecting Game for yourself.

I agree with this assessment.

The real measure of Game is only truly tested by how well it gets you laid. You can use your understanding of Game to improve your life, your career, your family interactions, etc. You can use your grasp of Game to destroy a feminist’s arguments and you can use it to literally save a man from suicide, but the real test is in how well it provably functions in getting you to intimacy with a woman.

Roosh recently had a series of articles and tweets regarding the present legitimacy of Game. Among his concerns is the claiming of Game authority by men who have never really used Game to get laid. A couple years ago Matt Forney had a similar post on the old In Mala Fide site titled something like “Never trust the advice of guys who aren’t getting laid”. In the years I’ve spent on the SoSuave forum I’ve seen this concern come and go; it’s interesting to see these sentiments get recycled, but the concern is the same. When late-term virgin men feel they have the Game savvy to authoritatively give other virgins (self-inflicted or not) Game advice it delegitimizes Game as a whole.

On the internet we are who we say we are. I’ve been getting laid (and for the better part the old-fashioned way) since I was 17. I’ve also been married for the last 17 years. Both my sexual and relationship past, as well as my marriage have benefitted me with a comprehensive understanding of Game principles. Furthermore my studies in behavioral psychology and over a decade of involvement in the manosphere have made me a pretty good connector of dots when it comes to behaviorism, sociology and psychology with regards to gender dynamics. I’m not trying to prove my pedigree here, what I’m driving at is that while Game has more to it than just getting laid, if you aren’t getting laid (or laid more with your wife) then your Game is untested and not as legitimate as someone who has put their own Game into successful practice.

The New Monogamy

I recently got a PM from a reader, Emperor Lu Bu, wanting some input from me on a blog post he’d written contrasting the modern ‘horrors’ of marriage and the white knight apologists’ rationales for endorsing marriage:

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on that piece, primarily because I seem to recall you saying that you were yourself married (employing some sort of complicated “marriage Game” to remain so).

I must admit, I’m curious as to whether you found an Eastern wife, or whether you just rolled some particularly dangerous dice and took a Western one for yourself.

As I stated in Fidelity, I’m not anti-marriage, I’m anti- uninformed, pollyanna, shoulda’-saw-it-coming, ONEitis fueled, shame induced, bound for bankruptcy, scarred my children for life, hypergamy’s a bitch, marriage. I could very easily detail the aspects of my 18 year relationship with Mrs. Tomassi that would sound like my marriage is a one-of-a-kind white knight miracle, but it will only come off as some naive rationale similar to the social conventions Lu Bu lists in his post. However, I assure you Mrs. Tomassi is a pretty, thin, blonde American, any Game I do run has long passed the point of being a very uncomplicated subconscious part of who I am, and I’m well aware of how hypergamy, the feminine imperative and western matrimonial laws collude to make marriage a dangerous prospect. Caveat emptor.

In contrast with this, Dalrock had another post from the other side of the divorce spectrum this week in quoting an interview with Kate Bollick:

…for people who want to have kids and raise them with someone else, I wonder what the next alternative for love/sex/reproduction is. Because it seems like for women there’s currently two options: Option A, which is dating, marriage, kids (and divorce and remarriage, etc.), or Option B, which is every other nontraditional alternative, where it’s everyone for him/herself, trying to figure out what fits. Option A being pretty clear, and Option B being wide open.

As you can see the future looks pretty bleak for anyone rooting for team marriage. From the extreme manosphere perspective marriage is akin to Russian roulette with 5 rounds in a 6 shot revolver. From the Jezebel / Bollick side of the equation, the SMV navigation plan is no longer in need of any pretense or concealment; women are now comfortable in admitting the plan actually is to cash out of the SMP casino between 27-28 years of age and to take the beta provider schlub to the cleaners for future cash & prizes. Even for Athol Kay, his MMSL is an effort in after-the-fact marriage damage control.

As Good as it Gets

So where does that leave us? Back in 2003 Tom Leykis once had a great rant about how being an unmarried man, spinning plates in his mid-twenties to mid-thirties, was as good as it gets. I’m beginning to think this was more than a bit prophetic. I’ve written six individual post about the various aspects of Plate Theory, and although I presented the options for both a continued plate spinning plan and a path, at least, towards monogamy from plate theory, I’m starting to wonder if a continued, indefinite, commitment-ambiguity isn’t simply as good as it gets for men today.

For as much as Aunt Giggles would have anyone believe that both men and women want to be married – “want’s” got nothing to do with it. A desire to be married and live in an idealized and secure state of mutual love and respect with someone is really a no-brainer. The whole Minter affair (literally and figuratively) in July superimposes the idea that even the most anti-marriage guy still wants to be married, but it’s not the getting where the problem starts, it’s in the having.

I have no doubt that the idealization of marriage, enduring companionship, mutual love and respect are very strong desires for men, but as I stated in my love series, men love idealistically, whereas women’s love is rooted in opportunism. Women get very upset at this proposition because they tend to conflate an unrealistic desire for unconditional love with a love based on a man’s performance for her in order to earn  and keep it. It’s not that men expect some childish form of unconditional love, it’s that a man must continue to maintain that love through performing and meriting it – this is what I mean by women loving opportunistically.

Whether a man comes to terms with how women love them, they still want to get married because they believe in the dream. Despite all the risk, despite every red flag a woman waves, and even despite the bitter disaster of his previous marriages, men still want to be married – they desire the ideal union.

But what if as good as it gets is simply entertaining a succession of non-committed, non-exclusive relationships? In essence, a sustainable plate spinning until such time as a woman demands committed monogamy, and then she’s replaced with a new plate and the cycle continues. I’m sure this would seem manipulative and horribly selfish to women, and furthermore it might contradict what I’ve just written about men’s general want for marriage (or at least an idealized union), but contrast this perpetual plate spinning strategy with the perspective extremes of both the raw deal men and women I mentioned in Lu Bu and Dalrock’s posts.

Rather than a deliberate or unintentional “marriage strike” perhaps the direction we’re headed is a sustainable series of modular monogamy or perpetuated singleness? Maybe that’s as good as it gets?

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Miguel
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Miguel
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I don’t even know where I’d like to see myself in the future. Yeah, I guess I’d like to get married one day but I feel that its mostly because I want children. And its not that I simply want them for myself but I have a soft spot for my dad who wants his name to be carried on. Plus, as I would get older myself it be nice to have a son/friend. I’ve thought of maybe just getting some girl pregnant but we’d have to have dual custody of some sort. I wonder if that would even work… Read more »

Skott
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Skott
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Just had my GF tell me a story about one of her friends. The woman she told me about is pregnant. But is so overweight that you can’t tell. This woman’s friends have mentioned to her that she is, well, fat. Suggested to her that she should exercise. Join a gym etc etc.

This woman’s response is that she has no desire or reason to lose the weight. Why? Because she knows that her husband won’t say anything about her size and won’t divorce her because he’s catholic.

Yeah.

Mike
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Mike
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To me the rational approach to a committed relationship is to be monogamish… you can have a strong emotional connection/narrative with a person but also acknowledge our biological realities.

Women can run their dual sexual strategy, guys are transparent and open about who they are sleeping with… we all win right?

Binary solutions like serial monogamous dating/marriage are just antiquated.

Is plate spinning regarded as polyamory?

xsplat
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Ya, I long ago discovered that I am very happy with serial monogamy leavened with bouts of parallel monogamy.

While my intern buddies have harems of 4 to 7 girls, I just keep two living in my apartments, and that’s about as good as it gets for me.

There will of course eventually be more rotation. I like the illusion of romance, and am pretty good at creating a strong love bubble, so this is a strategy that gives me what I like while limiting giving me what I don’t like.

Rhett
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I think the solution is the continuing growth of Islam in the West and the return of polygyny. Islam’s regulated polygyny, where a man can have up to 4 wives, works better than the West’s unrealistic ideal of monogamy. Muslim polygyny is being practiced openly in the UK right now. In the US, it is still practiced quietly but is spreading and will eventually become an acknowledged social phenomenon that can provide an alternative to the post-feminist collapse of marriage as an institution. I know several Muslim men who have multiple partners in the US. They simply don’t register these… Read more »

LiveFearless
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Exactly. Being reared with certain sets of programmed ‘values’ I never thought I would say it. It’s sad, really. Monogamy without marriage is a beautiful thing filled with enthusiastic love. I just read this out loud to a few women in the “I watch ‘Dancing with the Stars'” demographic, and I heard “but what woman wants that.” And there’s the rub… What man wants the lack of enthusiastic love in marriage? It’s too bad that all programming for a century has been against enthusiastic love (from a woman) in marriage. That’s where part of our team comes in and changes… Read more »

troyfrancispua
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But seriously, is this really sustainable as a long-term life strategy for most people? Plate spinning is fine in your twenties, thirties and forties – but in your seventies? Eighties?

The reality is that sourcing and attracting a series of partners (concurrent or otherwise) takes time and application that for most men would be better spent in the accumulation of wealth and material security. Something, at some point, has to give.

The manospheric refutation of modern marriage is rational and makes sense – but what is the real, workable, long-term alternative for modern men?

FuriousFerret
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“And they take care of all their kids with dignity and the women are delighted to be sharing a man they consider both an Alpha and a provider.”

“Sharia law is coming, my friends, and one day the manosphere will realize that this is actually a blessing.”

I’m pretty sure this is the reason that Habib is blowing himself up in a slim hope that pussy exists in an alternate dimension.

earl
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earl
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“Never trust the advice of guys who aren’t getting laid”. I would trust the advice of guys who are getting laid…if it didn’t require some form of alcohol or birth control to make it happen. Now if you achieved it stone cold sober during the day or your hard work to achieve some sort of fame or power leads to it…that takes some props. Day game for me is a much better test than bar or night club game. It tests who you are when your mind and hers are working as clear and sober as they can. Women through… Read more »

Aremo
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Aremo
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As you dramatically increase the costs of marriage and continuously and very publicly erode the benefits, you will get less of it. Marriage is now so incredibly one sided as to be a man literally selling himself into slavery for the rest of his life – there is simply no other way to read it at this point. His master can decide at any point in the relationship, to sever all benefits while demanding all privilege at the point of a gun and the state will back her up. What sane man would advocate for this state of affairs? If… Read more »

Flip
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Good post. I am in my 50s and have never been married and have dated women until the marry me or else ultimatum comes and then move on. I find women in their 40s and 50s unattractive so these days I mostly have a rotating soft harem of women in their 20s and early 30s for compensated dating. It is expensive but the caliber of these girls is pretty high.

Old Broad
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We’re in a fix. (1) Monogamy is the best way (not surefire, but the odds favor it) to rear kids who turn out OK. (2) Monogamy is now a raw deal for men.

Maybe we could alter our DNA so kids don’t take so much darn much TLC. Just bury our eggs at the beach, like sea turtles.

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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OK, I admit, I just had time to skim the article – which may mean that none of the following points are relevant, oh well, here I go anyway… 1) Marriage needs to be about much more than just getting laid. If that’s the goal (sorry Christian Right), you’re fucked (pardon the pun). My advice, get out there and get your dick wet, you’re future wife will appreciate it. 2) Hearing the truth of the “way the world really works”, especially for a man that married believing that they could leave the world of Game behind and create a true… Read more »

Nutz
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I’m calling it now, we’re going to see more and more defacto harems for alphas and serial monogamy for the betas. The rest will primarily end up incel resulting in some very nasty consequences along the lines of Sodini as this new paradigm grows.

Emperor Lu Bu
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I never expected a full-blown *article* as a response, but thanks all the same, Rollo. I’d have to say that (for Alpha PUAs), the perpetual plate-spin *is* “as good as it gets”. For Alpha MGTOW (which you seem to be), the “dice roll of doom” seems to be the only way to father children and create a legacy. It seems a particularly precarious prospect if one is NOT a PUA/Game veteran like yourself, which is why I never advise it. You’re like the ideal that progeny-seeking MGTOW aspire to… even as ridiculously unattainable as that ideal generally is. The only… Read more »

Yep It's Me
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OK, read the whole thing – good read, didn’t necessarily change the comment I made above. I was thinking about this the other day – the contrast to my teens and early 20’s to that of my oldest son (that is turning 18 this Fall). Since he doesn’t know any better – a life before mobile phones, Facebook, texting, selfies, attention whoring, etc. – he doesn’t understand how I just shake my head in wonder at what he as to do. But, we’ve been talking about it – and told me the other day (after we had a fairly long… Read more »

Martel
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Polygamy works really well for some folks, but horribly for others. In short, it’s great for Alpha males and women. But it leads to hundreds of thousands of excess males with no hope of a woman and no incentive for economic success. If they stay here on Earth, it’s endless poverty and celibacy as their betters have fun with their four wives. So the idea that you get 77 virgins upon blowing yourself up is the ideal religious incentive for such a society. No chance for a woman here (or probably even a job), but if you massacre a bunch… Read more »

Copyleft
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Copyleft
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Ehhh… just as you rightly condemn lazy generalizations about “marriage is always bad for all men,” so I’d dispute the notion that “all men really want to get married, it’s a no-brainer.”

Some folks really do prefer solitude, and having others around only by specific choice, for specific reasons and limited duration. Their preferences are as valid as anyone’s.

Yep It's Me
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On more thought, mostly of the “high value women” variety…

I’ve come to the conclusion there are only three special women in my life…

My Mother, for giving birth to me.
My (x)Wife for bearing my children
My Daughter for, well, being from my genetic code

All other woman (except for those I’m related to through direct lineage) for now and the foreseeable future are mere play things – to be enjoyed for my pleasure, when, where and if I choose.

Sam Spade
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I can speak from a unique standpoint. I was married for 3 years (and together for 4.5), post-Red Pill, to a helluva woman. Game came easily in the marriage, in part because I selected a woman who was game “friendly” shall we say. We got along great. Yet being in my mid-30s, after (I felt) the relationship had run its course, I realized I missed plate-spinning. I could not in good faith reconcile it with my marriage to my wife. I ended the marriage, and although she was heartbroken, we ended it mutually and honorably and with no ill will.… Read more »

Damien
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Damien
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the bible was almost true.. God create man, the envy Evil create women to corrupt god’s creation! As such, God spell a tantrum, so it doesn’t matter the million of websites who talks about this topic, the true is that once men recognize women as “evil inside” due their lack of any moral civil valours, they must understand that having kids with them is only to archive devil goal to continue to subdue GOD creation, to make im his slave and let him suffer or not be himself and finally giv’em another soul to the earth to be either a… Read more »

Tampa
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I think one of the topics that doesnt’ get discussed is the tremendous amount of energy it takes to go out and chase tail all the time. I’m mid 30’s and i’m doing well for myself but heading out to happy hours and chasing women just doesn’t have the same appeal it once did. For one, i can’t take the hangovers anymore and two, there is just other stuff i’d rather be doing. You kind of get stuck in a hard place. You want to find a nice woman to settle down with but your red pill mind knows that’s… Read more »

Damien
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@Tampa: “I think one of the topics that doesnt’ get discussed is the tremendous amount of energy it takes to go out and chase tail all the time.” because women doesn’t really love men, if so, they will chase men as well! they will split the bill, they will come to pick you up at your home and so on.. every genuine relationship means a 50% share for each, who don’t do this is a manipulative person who wants somethings from you! love.. evol.. evil. Love is the magic spell women use to men to subdue them like slaves, as… Read more »

anon
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anon
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not related to this post, but just thought i’d flag this ‘article’ up to you, I am shocked that something like this gets published in the New Statesman – http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism

thelatinbuddha
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I got cancer in my early 20s. I was a very religious guy, dating an even more religious chic. I thought I was going to die of the disease and I almost married this girl just so we could have sex without the guilt. Thankfully I didn’t die and I didn’t marry this chic. She cheated on me while I was going through chemo. We’re no longer together obviously, I’m alive and well and have been game aware for some time now. That prefaces my idea of marriage in that in my mind, it used to make sense to get… Read more »

Intellectual Bro
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Intellectual Bro
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Rollo, you hit the nail on the head here with the guy saying that spinning plates from 25-35 seems like the ‘ideal state.’ Kinda reminds me of Dalrock’s post, “If you found a unicorn, would you marry her?” I’m 26, and I have found a unicorn…same interests, intertwining life narrative, very family oriented girl, pretty, concerned with staying fit, likes a dominant man and admits it, etc. I love her a lot. But part of my head just keeps thinking about all of the pussy I’ll be missing out on for the next years. I’m just starting to come into… Read more »

framechange
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Sidenote: Tom got divorced in 2003. I wonder if this played into his rant?

earl
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earl
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“Love is the magic spell women use to men to subdue them like slaves, as such, as a man in “LOVE” you must:”

You are probably thinking lust instead of love.

deti
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“Women get very upset at this proposition [a woman’s love is based on opportunism] because they tend to conflate an unrealistic desire for unconditional love with a love based on a man’s performance for her in order to earn and keep it.” That doesn’t get all the way to it. I think women get upset at the proposition that their love is based on opportunism, i.e. what he does for her, because it reveals that her love for a man is conditional. This in turn causes her to confront the reality that she just might be as shallow and utilitarian… Read more »

Tammuz el Bam
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Tammuz el Bam
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Aye Martel if you could just take a break from hammering on the Moors for a bit … you could maybes ask the sharia-fanboys just exactly what they thought the “Arab Spring ” and endless other post-Ottoman irruptions in the Sandy States was, and is, all about, if not “rich guys’ fat ghey sons gets to hump all a da wimminz, and yu don’t gots no wife, loser!” Smiting the infidels ain’t got nuttin’ to do with it. Classic “send all the young men, who might take us ( and our property) out, off to die in a ditch somewheres”.… Read more »

Confused
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Confused
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“Alpha fux,Beta Buxs” and “women are now comfortable in admitting the plan actually is to cash out of the SMP casino between 27-28 years of age and to take the beta provider schlub to the cleaners for future cash & prizes.” Rollo, I’m confused as hell. My main question is ….How do you know if you are the “A” guy or the “Beta Provider Schlub”? You said you didn’t have two dimes to rub together when you got with Mrs.Tomassi. Beating out guys with serious cash. So how does “Alpha Fux, Beta Buxs” play into that? Doesn’t that theory go… Read more »

thehumanscorch
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I think women get upset at the proposition that their love is based on opportunism, i.e. what he does for her, because it reveals that her love for a man is conditional. This in turn causes her to confront the reality that she just might be as shallow and utilitarian as she accuses the men in her life of being. It’s moreso this, because this is the reaction I get every time I voice to my female friends that a man has to pay for whatever he wants from a woman, it’s not free. It’s not done out of the… Read more »

Case
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Case
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@Furious “re: ‘Sharia law is coming, my friends, and one day the manosphere will realize that this is actually a blessing.’ “I’m pretty sure this is the reason that Habib is blowing himself up in a slim hope that pussy exists in an alternate dimension. That started my day off with a smile. Thanks. @Rollo, “But what if as good as it gets is simply entertaining a succession of non-committed, non-exclusive relationships?” (a) it isn’t as good as it gets in that men of your calibre can take a risk on American family law but look at the bona fides… Read more »

Damien
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Damien
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@Case i would not laught since this is really what will be in the future, since marriage are dropping fast, the State usually helps single mothers and foreign people more than men (who even if they are single, they pay taxes to the wellfare to feed this situations) and kids out of the wedlock without a father are better suitors to archive different way of life, styles and doctrines (thanks goes to trash tv, junk music star etc etc) rather than those who are raised in a nuclear family with (write here your Nation) valours. and about Rollo, well the… Read more »

Omega 4Ever
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Omega 4Ever
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I’m starting to agree with the hardcore MGTOW that even Game concepts serve the feminine imperative. Now men have to learn the Art of Seduction while women can just sit back, relax, and swim in thousands of Facebook likes everyday. I thought women were supposed to meet us halfway? And it doesn’t change the fact post red-pill that it’s still the Man’s Fault ™. Now it means he didn’t keep up his Game, thus he got what he deserved! (Nevermind that he’s the one to Initiate, Guide, Lead, and Maintain the whole romantic thing) Actually I’m starting to really appreciate… Read more »

Omega 4Ever
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Omega 4Ever
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It’s going to get much better with sexbots, but there are many factors paving the way for our option C. If we’re going with the assumption: Men are attracted to beauty. Women are attracted to status. Beauty is only valued because it is rare (in the natural world, although I’d beg to argue that irregularity and non-symmetry is very beautiful in their own way). But beauty can be manufactured, mass-produced. Get ANY woman, liposuction the hell out of her (and process the excess fat into biofuel … America, your source of energy is all but guaranteed, thanks to your overweight… Read more »

Damien
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Damien
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@all sorry for the O.T. @Omega4ever “I’ll also be around during the coming sexbot revolution distributing free custom linux “girfriend experience” kernels and how-to diagrams adapted to home 3D printers. Sexbots will be built in garages. Mark my words.” Fear not my fellow friend! you are damned right! and you know who will be the most entusiastic one who would help them out? Manginas! the slaves who are happy to help their masters, of course! “Alternatively, a women’s distro might do none of these things. But it would be worth the experiment, if enough people cared enough to try it.… Read more »

Damien
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Damien
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@Omega4ever

thanks to the civilization, forged by men through the ages from their hard works, inventions, from their tears, from their bloods, men have recognized women rights that belong to them, Alas, they went far above and beyond this concession, they went even against themselves, men have liberated women from the burden of laundry, from deadly animals, whatever, but they forgot to free themselves from being slaves of women!

Ondrej
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Ondrej
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You know it’s not “Alpha(TM)” to say the book is published this month and not to publish it this month?:)))

Weston
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Weston
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Ondrej should get comment of the year.

Rollo Tomassi
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Who said it wasn’t?

8to12
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8to12
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Men have been marrying, having children, and establishing families in every culture for thousands of years. It’s so universal that you could call establishing a family unit around themselves is a primal need of men. Gaming numerous women won’t satisfy that primal need, as it doesn’t produce a family. Getting married doesn’t either, as the modern marriage model is so broken as to all but guarantee it won’t produce a stable family. It isn’t an either/or choice–PUA vs modern marriage. The truth is neither will satisfy the primal urge for a man to create a family around himself, so there’s… Read more »

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A Definite Beta Guy
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The optimal strategy depends on the quality of the women in question, I would think. If most women cannot honor even simple commitments and do not have a lot to offer a good man, well, what the fuck is the point in committing to her? It’s a stupid decision. Most women I meet fall under this category. They are extremely confrontational in any dispute, they cannot cook, they cannot clean, they are smug and superior, unmotivated, adversarial to men, etc. Many of them have extremely high and shallow standards in men and many of them have cheated in the recent… Read more »

8to12
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8to12
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@Tampa said: “I think one of the topics that doesnt’ get discussed is the tremendous amount of energy it takes to go out and chase tail all the time.” And, all that wasted energy and time robs you of the ability to do something meaningful with your life. For centuries the legacy of most men was their children. Even the humblest of men could count on being remembered after their death by 2-3 generations of descendants, and in that they found meaning in life. What meaning is there in being remembered as the guy that knocked up Mom in a… Read more »

The Burninator
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The Burninator
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Yeah, you go on with that sexbot plan. Leaves me with a larger, more desperate market, if such a thing can exist compared to today. Billions of betas, gammas and maybe even a stray alpha, all dumping their useless seed into a machine, much as they dump their labor today into the political maching that eats their lunch and breaks their souls. Perfect, I say. Marriage itself is pointless, except for having kids, which is the standard out used by men here. Great, have kids, but know that you will be sexless or nearly so until they’re out of the… Read more »

earl
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earl
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“It almost seems as if modern society has conspired against men to ensure they will spend their final days wondering “what was it all for; did my life have any meaning at all?”

There is nothing seeming about it…this was all planned.

The break down of the family…you have to attack the man. He is the glue that holds it together.

Break down the family…you have more people (single mothers) relying on the state…the state grows.

Soon the state controls everything around and if you choose to not go that route the state takes you out.

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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@Burninator “if you are the normal alpha-becomes-beta guy, which most will in fact become.” This statement hit pretty close to home – and my thought is that it is in fact, the reality for most men. I don’t know if I was true “alpha” or not, but I sure the hell became true beta after about 7/8 years of marriage and three kids – throw in an economic downturn – and WhaaLaa, you have a beta male working his ass off, carting the kids around, discarding his buddies until he has none (no golfing, hunting fishing for you sir, because… Read more »

Aristippus
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Aristippus
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The sweet girlfriend becomes the nagging wife. The truth is, so many women know how they SHOULD behave. That’s why many will act nice and sweet while dating you. The they pull the old bait and switch. They know how they should act but CHOOSE not to. There are a few good women out there but you still have to be careful. The other thing you have to watch out for is a good woman who gradually, over time, changes for the worse. Why is it you rarely or almost never hear of a woman changing for the better after… Read more »

Case
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Case
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@Damien, I’m not laughing. (ahhh, insert winking emoticon here … that is, an emoticon that Roosh declares we “YOU SHALL NOT USE” … read with your strongest Gandolfian voice while you wave a staff). re, “the State usually helps single mothers and foreign people more than men (who even if they are single, they pay taxes to the wellfare to feed this situations)” …interesting you say that. Some part of me knew this reflexively, or instinctively, at least the first part … I’m not really convinced the state helps foreign people as much as you think, but as regards fathers… Read more »

LiveFearless
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Rollo Tomassi-coined relationship ‘plate theory’ is heard (with a twist) this morning (Friday) ‘On-Air with Ryan Seacrest’ on KIIS-FM Los Angeles Hours later:8/30/2013 @7:22pm PDT NELLIE ANDREEVA REVEALS…
Ryan Seacrest, Matchmaker

Fox Greenlights Dating Competition Series Produced By Ryan Seacrest http://t.co/ZU13bSAbYa via @Deadline— Nikki Finke (@NikkiFinke) August 31, 2013

‘Dream Date’ is in production. It will be successful. Rollo’s coined ‘spinning plates’ attracts listeners. Aunt Giggles might enjoy watching Rollo’s ‘plate theory’ during the new ‘Dream Date’ reality television show… on the comfortable couch with her cat and a large bowl filled with delicious ice cream.

themaskandrose
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The plan you outlined is what works for me–spinning plates until a woman demands monogamy. However, with all due respect, you missed something important: The “demand” for monogamy is an easy-to-pass shit test, particularly if the girl is already invested in you and really likes you. For example, about 6 days into my fling with my latest Primary (I consider myself polyamorous), she weasel-phrased the demand like this: “So, if I were to tell you that you have to be monogamous with me or I’d leave, what would you say?” My response: “Well, if you were to tell me that,… Read more »

BC
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BC
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Wow, what an ugly rebutt(hurt)al post by SSM, complete with chorus of angry hamsters and bitter betas. Every time I see a reaction like that by an erstwhile Red Pill Woman it just reinforces that there are no true Red Pill Women – only women who feel like right now they are Red Pill… until they are not, and then back, and then not again, and back againetc.

Good to Deti, Rollo and others taking the time to try to straighten things out, but it probably won’t take. Because, Feminine Imperative. And feelings.

troyfrancispua
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This, from Tampa: I think one of the topics that doesnt’ get discussed is the tremendous amount of energy it takes to go out and chase tail all the time. I’m mid 30′s and i’m doing well for myself but heading out to happy hours and chasing women just doesn’t have the same appeal it once did. For one, i can’t take the hangovers anymore and two, there is just other stuff i’d rather be doing. You kind of get stuck in a hard place. You want to find a nice woman to settle down with but your red pill… Read more »

Damien
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Damien
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-Welcome to the System (a marxism frame concepts game) OBJECTIVES 1) destroy families 2) destroy good old valours 3) destroy cultures 4) disrespects for human life 5) create new needs 6) create new valours 7) create fake identities 8) create fake valours among men to serve the system -WHOEVER CONTROL WOMEN, CONTROL MEN, SOCIETIES, NATION(S) (women as toll of the trade) Mike August 29th, 2013 at 2:03 am (1)(2)(3)”Binary solutions like serial monogamous dating/marriage are just antiquated.” xsplat August 29th, 2013 at 2:18 am (2)(3)(6)”Ya, I long ago discovered that I am very happy with serial monogamy leavened with bouts… Read more »

Kate
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Kate
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Naturally, I’m inclined to believe that there is something better, but I don’t say that while Panglossing over realities. It seems like both paths (everlasting plate spinning vs. marriage) have incredible challenges. Which one requires more skill, I’m not sure. Success in any form is going to come down to whether a person has the discipline to give each day, each hour, each moment, the best they possibly can. Best advice I ever heard: “Want better? Be better. Want exceptional? Be exceptional.”

Damien
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Damien
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@Case August 31st, 2013 at 1:33 am “(omissis)..… I’m not really convinced the state helps foreign people as much as you think, ..(omissis)” Mark Minter, April 27th, 2013 at 8:06 am , here:http://therationalmale.com/2013/04/26/fear-and-freedom/ give a nice insight of the reasons why you should reconsider your point of view regarding what i said. let me copy&paste part of his post here: “So what this bill does is address many things, but declining birth rate and male “opting out” are the two key issues that we in the manosphere are concerned with. The United States has two key export sectors, Tech and… Read more »

Sisyphus
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Sisyphus
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@Kate: did you and Mark Minter really wind up getting married?

gregg
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gregg
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Marriage is serious business and requires some kind of “idealized mindset”. You will not enter into serious business with anyone when you know that “loyality” is not part of his persona. Noy you KNOW that about women. Still you are…married. After realizing the truth of how women operate, it is not WISE to marry. However, natural state of man is slavery so he moves in semi comatose state in this idealized fantasy. As far as you Rollo – again, it is clear that you are, were and always be… beta. Due to your past with BPD girl (no alpha would… Read more »

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@Damien I sure you were trying to make a point with your long comment – but for the life of me I can’t figure it out. Please explain further – you took a significant amount of time to create it, so wondering what it is. Also, I’d like to comment on SSM’s article – since she took the time create it and craft it based upon this article….We tend to talk in generalities, which then allow others to poke holes with specifics. Basically, we tend to point to things “in general” but everyone knows of a few “cases” that prove… Read more »

MGHOW
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MGHOW
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@Tin Man

I am not a native speaker but I think he is saying that the marxist social engineers are successfully manipulating the way everyone thinks; even the supposedly red-pill men of this blog.

Case
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Case
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MGHOW & Tin Man I echo Tin Man’s point. Damien needs to be a bit more articulate if its a broader point about social marxism as you say. Every acknowledgment if group dynamics and group realities is not a subscription to Marxism, such beliefs are the hallmark of 90 IQ points at worst and at best evidence that one didnt bother to read Das Kapital before self promoting to armchair political economist. Re: favoring immigrants for work … this is exposing a weak understanding of how markets work. The fault is not in the permission of low wage immigrants to have access… Read more »

Ton
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Ton
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Yep for me that’s as good as it gets. I spin some plates for a time, find one I like and start dropping the other plates. When the remaining plate runs its course, I take a short break and repeats the process. Not an ideal solution in many ways but my age and divorce make it much easier. I have a son to carry on my father’s name, no one gives you the grow up and settle down speech when you’re divorced, though I sometimes get the tour still hurt/ bitter speech. It’s simply much easier to counter what other… Read more »

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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@Case – thanks for the simplified view of a very complex subject – and some suggestions on reading material to get more educated. @Ton – glad to hear you are making the system work. My belief is that once you have “secured” your lineage – especially if they are grown – there is much less need to have a single woman around – i.e. the wife. I find it laughable that any man, over the age of 40 (that already has kids) would find it logical or reasonable to get re-married. I guess if I was in need of a… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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@Damien: Love is the magic spell women use to men to subdue them like slaves, as such, as a man in “LOVE” you must: ________ (write here whatever she wants)” for what? I like the MGTOW method of dealing with statements like this from women: reframe it thusly. “If you loved me, you would eat dog shit.” Yes indeed, cupcake. @thehumanscorch: It’s moreso this, because this is the reaction I get every time I voice to my female friends that a man has to pay for whatever he wants from a woman, it’s not free. It’s not done out of… Read more »

8to12
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8to12
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@gregg said: “As far as you Rollo – again, it is clear that you are, were and always be… beta. Due to your past with BPD girl (no alpha would withstad such a mess for longer than a week) you might have been very weak in the time you met your wife. You chase her until she catched you..so you promised for life. Case af Rollo…closed.” Because, people never change; people never learn from their past or their mistakes. Not only is that an unfair criticism, it’s a sad commentary on your view of life that you don’t seem to… Read more »

patro
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patro
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like the the pic of the girls.

shows them neither flattering nor defamatory – but just how they are.

YaReally
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YaReally
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“The real measure of Game is only truly tested by how well it gets you laid.” “if you aren’t getting laid then your Game is untested and not as legitimate as someone who has put their own Game into successful practice.” Yep. In the oldschool community we had rules where you had to have successfully field tested your shit before you presented it to the community and then the rest of us would test it too. You didn’t come in with theories, or we would mock you and tell you to go field test it and then come back. A… Read more »

The Burninator
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The Burninator
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Props @YaReally. Great as always. You do not know me, but I have followed yours and Rollo’s posts with interest for a while now. End of the day, if you marry, only do so if you know you can and will have strange on the side when it gets bad. It will get bad for 99.99% of you who do get married, I don’t care how alpha you are or think you are. Just like carrying a sidearm, only do it if you go in fully prepared to use it. If you don’t think you can (use the pistol, or… Read more »

FuriousFerret
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FuriousFerret
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“No homo but personally in my 20s-30s I would way rather move in with a good male buddy and be badass roommates partying and macking on girls and spinning plates together while we each work on our careers and hit the gym and play Xbox and shit, waaaaaay before I would get hitched and move in with a chick and become the generic guy Bill Burr describes here, which is what most of them look like to me:” If you simply don’t care what society thinks then your life improves exponentially. A lot of what guys do is for the… Read more »

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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Monolith351
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Monolith351
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Hey DeNihilist…

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/matrix.asp

Sorry friend but Africanglobe will jump at anything to propogate their “equality” agenda, at the expense of facts.

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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ARGH!

Monolith, thanx, and I am the one always telling people to Snope It first!

Monolith351
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Monolith351
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No worrys Dn, I think we’ve all made the same mistake as well. smile

avd
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avd
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As per the course, certain commenters feel themselves above the rest of us. Eye roll. @punk, A lot of people think I’m abrasive and an asshole when I write about game in the Manosphere but I just have a very black and white view of it: * Exactly. The world is not black and white. It’s gray. Black and white are constructs for understanding spectrums. They are not actual, literal, absolutes. They are a construct for guiding one’s understanding. Show me ONE spectrum in life that is literally black and white. It doesn’t exist. Yet, you run around hard-preaching to… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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@avd “Show me ONE spectrum in life that is literally black and white. It doesn’t exist.” 2 + 2 = 4. You can whine that you think maybe 3 + 5 could or should equal 4 but you would be wrong and I would call you out on being wrong. Gravity’s another one. You could tell me you think the air pushes us down to the Earth but I would rightly make fun of you for it lol “As far as I can tell, you are the living embodiment of the RattLife punk” Your entire post is all just attacking… Read more »

gregg
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gregg
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@ furious ferret “funny how guys with options can flip the script of hold off to the last moment to get married like the careerist feminists do.” Again, there is no fundamental difference between a guy who´s spinning plates, waiting for the last/right moment to marriage/enslavement, the religious guy who marries in his twenties or PUA monkey-dancing for women loosing every bit of freedom, dignity and honour in the process (fucking married women, producing illegitimate bastards, etc). There is still this mantra – “I have to be recognized by women and I have to live/fuck/marry them, otherwise I am not… Read more »

troyfrancispua
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@gregg The power of women over men is ENORMOUS.

Yes, but only in the same way that you could say the power of men over women is enormous. Desire for the opposite sex, and pair bonding are fundamantal human drives for both men and women – there’s no getting away from that.

My take on the manosphere is not that we ‘cut through the chains’ of those basic components of our humanity: rather that we learn how to negotiate the sociological and psychic landscape in which we find ourselves – the feminine imperative, if you will – to our advantage.

itsme
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itsme
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yareally, did you defecate on avd’s gf again?

8to12
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8to12
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@gregg said: “Now we have the knowledge necessary to unplugg, to cut through the chains and what is the result? We are using it to be better at “dancing for women and spinning plates”…” You make an excellent point. The PUA, plate-spinners, and married men gaming their wives are all, at the end of the day, conforming their lives to the desires of women. None are really living their lives according to their own vision. They are contorting themselves into a shape that will be desirable to women. They are no more free than the beta, henpecked husband is free.… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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All that looks good on paper, but who are you really doing it for? http://therationalmale.com/2013/07/18/crisis-of-motive/ According to this logic any man who’s ever married in the history of humanity did so to appease a woman. Every success a guy may achieve, no matter how self-motivated, that in some way attracts a woman to him becomes his motivation for having achieved it. I could even make a case that even the most individualistic of MGTOW are only doing so in response to women’s motives and are thus doing their bidding. All you’re doing is painting the target around the arrow you… Read more »

trackback

[…] Tomassi from “As Good As It Gets” […]

avd
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avd
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@punk Gravity’s another one. You could tell me you think the air pushes us down to the Earth but I would rightly make fun of you for it lol * Non-sequitur. If you don’t like my shit, skip my posts. * If only it were so simple. I routinely skip comments from those from whom I obtain zero value—it’s a necessity in the MS. However, you’ve had a corrosive effect on the MS since your arrival. Before your arrival, there existed minimal sniping and snarking and keyboard jockey AMOGing. I never commented back then, but rather, was content to simply… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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@avd

“I only started posting to counter your caustic effect on the community.”

wait…you mean…you mean…I CREATED you??

http://images.wikia.com/inciclopedia/images/b/b5/Inglip.jpg

God I love your posts lol FRAME COLLAPSE. BOOM.

avd
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avd
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Dream on, punk. Thanks for your brief (almost non-existent) reply. And have no illusions, the readership is monitoring this exchange. And they are making INFORMED decisons for the BETTERMENT of THEIR OWN lives… and good for them for that.

PS-good frame attempt. No one’s buying it. Your AMOG schtick is finished in the MS, other than with the omegas who follow you. Now you will have to express yourself as an actual MALE, rather than via Tyler’s little AMOG tactics. Good luck expressing yourself without RSD videos. Pitiful frame collapse.

YaReally
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YaReally
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lol

avd
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avd
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Thank you. hahahaha fucking hilarious. Gentlemen, take note. This MS shit is about YOUR life, not someone else’s life. Incorporate game knowledge judiciously. (Can’t believe how easily punk folded with ‘lol’) — just pathetic, but it makes my point. This is about YOUR life.) Not some dipshit’s view of what your life should be, posting anonymously on the internet.

Punk, please, give me one of your epic write-downs. Give me some material to work with.

YaReally
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YaReally
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“This MS shit is about YOUR life, not someone else’s life.” “This is about YOUR life.) Not some dipshit’s view of what your life should be, posting anonymously on the internet.” Yes, I agree. That’s why I wrote exactly that in my post here: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/amog-tit-grab/#comment-463871 Where I wrote fantastical quotes like: “The most important part of all of this is that these are YOUR personal standards, that are based on how YOU feel and what you want and what your goals in life are. I can’t give you the list of what your standards should be. No one else here… Read more »

key
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key
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Easy on YaReally. He doesn’t claim to be anything he is not.

YaReally positively encourages bluepill men to move beyond an unfulfilling and suffocating lifestyle with his meticulous breakdown of game. He presents the tools without judgment on their use.

Recognizing and utilizing those tools represents a first and necessary step for most men that produces concrete results. Immersion in hedonism remains a danger, but understanding the nature of women and romantic interaction inevitably leads to examination of other denied and uncomfortable truths.

key
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key
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Burninator, marrying only if you know you can and will have strange on the side when it gets bad is a great way to ensure it will not go bad.

Braska
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Braska
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Rollo, i just want to say that i literally love you.
I discovered your blog two weeks ago an read it almost wholly since then.
It’s in my opinion the best blog on Internet. It’s such a pleasure to read someone smart. I hope you the best succes with your book, you deserve fame.
By the way, you have unplugged me completly. I am 26 years old and thanks to you my life trajectory gonna be probably way better. Thanks.

Rollo Tomassi
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Thanks Braska, it’s always encouraging to read stuff like that.

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader
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@avd

tl;dr

You don’t pay me enough to read all of that. Really.

Braska: The first step is often the most difficult. You have the advantage that you do not need to unlearn decades of habits.

avd
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avd
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@ Anonymous Reader,

I don’t pay you for dick, and never will, you sniveling omega chump. That should be short enough for your miniscule brain.

avd
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avd
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You omegas reading these blogs are such unbelievable losers. I never even considered the depth of losertude that you inhabit, until punk pulled you all out from the woodwork. I rightly pity you, and your leader, punk. And what’s so strange about it is that I would be your champion in a normal world. However, you have chosen to align yourselves with disrespectful clowns like punk. And where has that delivered you? To being a big talker online? Good for you. How’s it helping you with getting your cock off on flesh and blood pussy? Probably, not so much. You… Read more »

BC
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BC
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@avd, you are fucking pathetic, but good for laughs.

itsme
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itsme
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rollo, i gotta say i love the new direction you’re taking with the blog. this open mic night concept is brilliant, cuz there’s some pure comedy gold here.

and no pesky jumbotrons to filter out all the good shit.

eon
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eon
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Rollo, Your articles are truly excellent and extremely important, and I am looking forward to year three and your book! And that comment by Sam Spade on August 29th, 2013 at 1:16 pm, which was an out-of-place gift to female bloggers, makes me doubt him and his blog. Supposedly, a man is good enough at Game to be able to maintain simultaneous sexual relationships with a changing set of several women (spinning plates), to keep any one woman from gaining too much leverage, as she would in a marriage. He puts in the considerable time and effort required to do… Read more »

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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I for one like all the varying opinions and thoughts – it’s like the blind men describing the elephant from their point of view (pun not intended). There are some absolute truths and/or rules governing this whole area, but there is also lots of grey areas and nuances involved. What works for one person may not work for someone else – and what happened once may not ever happen again. I read somewhere out there about “luck” being involved – my belief is that luck is nothing more than having the ability to be aware of a situation, then acting… Read more »

The One
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The One
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Didn’t read all comments, but leaving the West is a good idea if you want to get married. Another strategy is to marry below your smv. If you are an eight and she is a six, I would be surprise if she ever thought she could upgrade to a nine. Remember women have to get remarried to complete the divorce fantasy. Of course marrying below your smv might be unpalatable to most men.

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