Play Nice

Overheard this past weekend:

“Nice guys are the real jerks if you ask me. They put up a front, acting differently when talking to women, deceiving them into getting them into bed.

And if they fail to get them in bed with them, they go on the internet and rant about their misogynist views on women.

Real men act the same with everyone. They’re not there to put up a front nor do they bitch about their failures with women.”

I’m reading this a lot lately. The Nice-Guy-as-ruse rationalization would be laughable if not for so many women using the trope to explain their misgivings or lack of judgement with a guy that pumped and dumped them. Furthermore, the False-Flag Nice Guy is also a ready-made social convention used to excuse the worst behaviors of women when a man might (albeit immaturely) make a public example of that behavior. Not surprisingly this cad-in-sheep’s-clothing rationale really pisses off the genuine beta Nice Guys, and for exactly the reason less attractive women get upset when their more attractive sisters mistreat the Men they could never hope to pull themselves.

So with this in mind I thought I’d pick apart this meme in detail.

“Nice guys are the real jerks if you ask me.”

When truly nice guys (80-90% of the masculine sphere) read a line like “Nice Guys are the real jerks” something snaps in their heads. Black is white, up is down and Nice Guys are Jerks. Most Nice Guys have been playing the self-internalized Beta Game, identification scenario out for so long that to read something like this is akin to blaspheme. “Great now all these women I’ve been trying to be so nice too (like they all say they want) really think I’m a jerk?” One would think this would be a moment of clarity for the Nice Guy and he’d realize the truth of what his ‘misogynist’ Game-aware friends had been trying to enlighten him about for so long. You’d think, until,..

“They put up a front, acting differently when talking to women, deceiving them into getting them into bed.”

Ah! Well there you have it! They’re really just Alpha cads playing at being nice in order to bed these women ,..how fiendish! Now, not only are women jaded by the players, but they’re also more wary of the ‘Nice’ men due to the players utilizing their own Beta Game. Dammit! The Jerks have poisoned the Nice well!

What they fail to realize is the inherent ridiculousness of the premise – niceties never got a man laid – and of all men, the Nice Guy knows the difficulty of actually consolidating sex upon ‘niceness’. While I have no doubt that many a Game savvy man has gotten laid by misrepresenting himself as being more interested and pleasant than he actually was, it’s understandable that no woman would ever want to admit to her active participation in that deception. Solution? Paint Nice Guys with the broad brush of the Bad Boy Jerk.

“And if they fail to get them in bed with them, they go on the internet and rant about their misogynist views on women.”

Well, we could debate the social implications of women defaulting to the easy epithet of ‘misogynist’, but that’s an old post for me. You know the more I pick this apart the more I have to empathize with the truly Nice Guy; his is a particularly cruel hell. The Nice Guy in this definition isn’t necessarily the Alpha in sheep’s clothing. This is the guy who, most likely, believed he was going about ‘courting’ his woman-to-be by the rules he knows were established as the sensible proper means to arriving at a woman’s intimacy. The fact that he plays by those rules is integral to his sense of not-like-typical-guys uniqueness.

He subscribed to the Sniper Mentality, played friends, and unfortunately after taking his big shot, got rejected by his (most likely ONEitis) target girl. If men of this stripe are one thing, it’s dedicated to their personal investments into a particular girl they know will one day appreciate their stand-out qualities,..some day. What they fail to grasp is that hypergamy doesn’t care about the equity he believes he’s building for a future relationship. That’s one thing to realize when you’re deep into an LTR, but it’s really a lesson that should be learned when you’re the chump trying to prove to your paramour how perfect a boyfriend you’ll be for her – once she’s done fucking the Jerks she can’t get enough of.

This is a tough lesson for a guy who’s ideology about women and dating is virtually a mirror of his ideology on a ‘strong work ethic’. Work hard, pay your dues and you’ll be rewarded compensatory with your efforts. So, again, it’s unsurprising that this guy would get upset (maybe vindictively so) when his ‘dream girl’ proves to him that hypergamy doesn’t care about compensating all his efforts.

“Real men act the same with everyone. They’re not there to put up a front nor do they bitch about their failures with women.”

In the meantime, back in solipsistic girl-world the narrative, as always, continues to revolve implicitly around how his ‘pseudo-niceness’ impacts her reputation and her, now damaged, self-impressions. Because, of course, no genuine Nice Guy would ever feel slighted enough by her rejecting him intimately so as to feel the need to broadcast his displeasure on FaceBook. ‘Real’ Nice Guys would just shut the fuck up and accept her rejection; which then completes the circular fem-logic of being attracted to guys with the wherewithal to stand up for themselves, speak their minds and not stand for the injustice of being sold one message and having another’s intent proved for him. Sometimes, we call those guys Jerks.

You see, behavioristically, what women mischaracterize as ‘nice‘ is usually the male-methodology they misinterpreted when they couldn’t find a way to reject a guy in an efficient fashion. So yeah, Nice Guys, you’re the real Jerks and Alpha Jerks, you’re the truly nice guy’s because you “act the same with everyone.”

Ladies, stop complaining about the sheep when you’re looking for a wolf.

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HeligKo
Guest

I suspect that there are more women who truly get upset when it turns out that the guy they slept with wasn’t an alpha, but a nice guy spitting game. Its the sheep in wolf’s clothing that gets these women mad, not the wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Marellus
Guest

Remember Kevin? The insignificant three-week fling from my freshman year. The one who started texting me last Saturday night. Well the texting continued all week. Actually, it never stopped. We’re still talking. Right now. Kevin kept up conversation just as before. He’d ask about my day, complain about his job, take interest in my hobbies, and so on and so forth. Eventually I got used to it and after a few days I was expecting his texts. One day I even initiated the conversation myself, because I knew it was coming anyways. Our conversations were long and detailed. Kevin would… Read more »

Professor Mentu
Guest

Great article as always, Rollo. I’ve been doing a little thinking about this myself lately. If I may talk directly out of my ass for a moment here… I sometimes wonder if the true nice guy really isn’t nice at all. He’s nice, not stupid, and he can clearly see where being nice has gotten him in the SMP. Basically, nowhere. So when the stars align and some chick fresh off a bad-boy breakup has a momentary change of heart and decides to reward the nice guy for his niceness, he gets a little bitter. Yes, he won, but he… Read more »

Retrenched
Guest
Retrenched

Tingle uber alles, once again.

If the tingle isn’t there, a man’s sweetest and most sincere gestures will be written off as evil manipulation. But if the tingle is there, then she’ll think everything he does is great, even when he treats her poorly.

It all boils down to the tingle. If it’s there she’ll think he’s wonderful, and if it’s not she’ll think he’s scum. The end.

But it’s fun sometimes to watch the rationalization hamster come up with alternative explanations for this.

Dillon
Guest
Dillon

Women avoid guys who are nice to them in order to avoid forming emotional bond with any one man.

Why? Women nowadays operate on a prostitute business model. Just like a prostitutes avoids falling for any one guy because it would be disasterous for her business, ladies nowadays are usually dating multiple men and jumping rope to rope and thus recoil from falling in love.

Nice guys are “sticky” emotionally, aloof men are non-stick. No fuss no muss, on to the next.

HeligKo
Guest

@Dillon, I think you are right. I know this is how it felt with the last woman I dated. She was becoming attached, and decided it was time to walk.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

@Dillon, agreed, but I think that in your identifying that, women who aren’t invested in that model (or think they aren’t) feel the same way as the Nice Guys who think they’re getting short shrift because they believe a select minority are ruining the niceness appeal of their perceived majority.

In other words HB9 demi-whores are ruining men for the rest of them, while fake nice guy cads are spoiling women for the ‘real’ nice guys. They’re both deluded that they aren’t all playing the same commodification game, but that’s the dynamic.

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada

Dillon: I’ve been working for the past 2 years or so on a theory/hypothesis I call “paleogamy”, offset by modern relationships which I call “neogamy”. It’s been apparent to me from a strong anecdotal correlation that women with high reward lifestyles are unable to secure a long term relationship because they’ve been wired hormonally to seek greater and faster highs. This is also true for men, so I won’t shoot just one side of the crowd. Consider the urban lifestyle: plenty of options for a fast high — a bar/nightclub, going shopping to one of dozens of stores, tons of… Read more »

Matt
Guest
Matt

Being a nice guy, being kind and considerate are fundamental values that American society was based on. Giving your neighbor a hand was a big part of the tremendous economic success we have enjoyed over the past couple of centuries. I’m sorry that it has to come to an end.

HeligKo
Guest

@Matt, it hasn’t ended. The Nice Guy usually is a farce. There are alpha males who are good guys and not good guys. The nice guy just wants to be liked, and puts up the front that gets that. He will do whatever it is that others want to do, and then become bitter that no one ever does what he wants, even though he didn’t bother to share what he wanted to do. The quintessential nice guy is the the Christian chump who has taken all the preachers teaching to heart, and is trying to sacrificially please everyone. They… Read more »

reificator
Guest
reificator

It’s the lack of outcome independence: real kindness doesn’t expect reciprocation. Which is bullshit, because reciprocal altruism is something we understand from infancy. Now, it’s certainly misguided to expect sex for nice behavior; unfortunately, so too is expecting nice behavior back. Of course, using your orbiters for emotional validation or companionship isn’t actually nice or outcome independent, either. Orbiters actually exacerbate their own problems: male companionship and validation are important to women, but by making it ubiquitously available, they undercut their only ‘USP.’. (Which is not really unique, since everybody is offering it.) Now, I don’t mind being nice to… Read more »

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

I was thinking about this very topic over the weekend — Nice Guys, what defines them, etc. If I had to pick out the single most important alpha personality trait (other than being a famous winner at something, like a top actor, musician or athlete), it’s that the alpha is fundamentally disinterested in other people’s opinions. He’s concerned least of all with other people’s opinions about him. Lower-ranked men are always concerned with how others perceive him. He is constantly trying to manipulate those perceptions by reverse-engineering positive responses from people (esp. women). The beta/omega is intensely self-conscious, is always… Read more »

William
Guest
William

The nice guy is doing exactly what his friends, family & society have told him to do.

– Nice Guy wants woman
– Society tells him how to get woman
– Nice Guy tries to get woman and fails
– Nice Guy complains about not getting woman
– Society ridicules him for expecting woman.

“If i do X, then i’ll get X” everyone has a game and this is it,
from the woman expecting to get attention to the man expecting to be “right with God”.

[Beta Game]

HeligKo
Guest

The saddest thing to me in all this, is that women really can get what they desire without any work. They can get attention on dating sites, and in bars just by being there. Their ego can be inflated to huge proportions. When they meet men that truly are in the right SMV range for them, they believe that they are above them. They think that the game can go on forever, and then suddenly its gone. They are settling on a man below their perceived SMV, because they missed the ones that were there for them before. They tend… Read more »

William
Guest
William

@ reificator

The reciprocation can be the positive feeling they get from doing the acts of kindness.

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

“The saddest thing to me in all this, is that women really can get what they desire without any work. They can get attention on dating sites, and in bars just by being there.” There’s one thing they can’t get by doing this (simply being as physically attractive as possible with a pleasant and fun personality). Getting dolled up and keeping their asses firm and going to social events It will absolutely work at attracting good men. Always has. Always will. But the one thing this tactic can’t do is allow them to keep a viable self-image as modern feminist.… Read more »

walawala
Guest
walawala

Interesting. The 26 year old I’ve taken out and have gaming lately suddenly texted me some nonsense that she was so “angry” that her “ex” was being fake nice to her but had an ulterior motive. It seemed like a shit test. I just texted back, “yah, sounds gay” But i think there is this other side that women may be looking for jerks but when a jerk acts like a nice guy it’s beta, they see through it. Congruency is the key. Also, the pre-game was like this alleged “ex” with girls…after we broke up or got dumped I… Read more »

Dillon
Guest
Dillon

The only losers in this scenario are the ones who act a certain way expecting results. Nice guy being nice just because that’s who he is would never feel bad for not getting laid. If he feels bad, he was never nice at his core but was trained to be nice by society. He need to revert back to the asshole he really is. Being yourself you will win some and lose some. Not being yourself, you will lose both ways. Just like a nice girl who acts like a slut to seek male attention and then complains all guys… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

AB Daba, That makes a lot of sense. I have been trying to puzzle out how to teach my girls that it is the long term reward that they will need to focus on when it comes to finding a man, not the short term. This is a VERY hard thing for a girl to stick to. Dressing sexy, not demure brings about a lot of short term attention but attention that will likely get a girl no long term reward (a good husband as she is likely to be promiscuous by that point). That short term attention is like… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

Dillon:

“Women avoid guys who are nice to them in order to avoid forming emotional bond with any one man.

***

Nice guys are “sticky” emotionally, aloof men are non-stick. No fuss no muss, on to the next.”

Some women follow that model for various reasons. But I don’t think most women avoid nice guys so as not to get attached. I think the reason is that the nice guys just don’t turn them on. They aren’t attracted to the nice guys. They want to get attached to the attractive alpha.

William
Guest
William

@ Dillion

“The only losers in this scenario are the ones who act a certain way expecting results.”

Everyone has expectations, the problem comes when people don’t want to do the things they’ll get them the results.

The One Reason
Guest
The One Reason

As for Definitions, now we’re getting somewhere: Retrenched: If the tingle isn’t there, a man’s sweetest and most sincere gestures will be written off as evil manipulation. But if the tingle is there, then she’ll think everything he does is great, even when he treats her poorly. Bingo on the importance of the tingle-modifier. And as long as the poor treatment follows some sort of congruent pattern mated to the attitude and “outlook” of the original tingle-induction, it’s fine. Perhaps any incongruency, real or female-imagined/rationalized, indeed then may lead to the sense of being duped and “used”. But I assume… Read more »

Thin-Skinned Future Geezer Yankee
Guest
Thin-Skinned Future Geezer Yankee

While you’re probably right about “nice guys” playing the long con, recalling from my own occasions orbiting young ladies of various attractions that I had no actual plan of actually closing the deal. I was (and probably am) so clueless that I was content to bask in the glory of the feminine radiance in any role even as hopeless and unattractive as the beta supplicant. Help you study? Move house? Provide a shoulder to cry on? It was the only way I knew to gain the attention of the objects of my fascination. A bug may also orbit around an… Read more »

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

“I’ve always felt that talking about outcome-independence is a bit misleading. ”

I think so too. Being “outcome indifferent” sounds like a man not caring about his own goals. But alphas are nothing if not goal-oriented.

Here’s what an alpha is indifferent about — other people’s negative opinions of him. That includes (but is not limited to) the occasions when a woman rejects him sexually. An alpha is infinitely more invested in his OWN opinions (of himself and of others) than he is in other people’s feelings about him.

Lad
Guest
Lad

You might have heard that over the weekend since last week Jenna Maury (youtube artist Jenna Marbles, who regularly gets 5 million+ views) ranted about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXXXX9iVPI Part of the problem is semantic gymastics with the word “niceguy”. Here’s what I’d do. I’d gather a huge list of words describing male personality and divide them into 4 categories: Nice, fake-nice, jerk, and neutral. For example: Nice: considerate, patient, cautious, kind (Men you like to have around) Fake-nice: shy/timid, reluctant, cowardly, obsequious (guys you tend to shun) Jerk: inconsiderate, impatient/aggressive, reckless, cruel (These guys are exciting but annoying/dangerous) And then the… Read more »

Lad
Guest
Lad

btw I didn’t mean to embed that video, just meant to reference it.

Tobin Rote
Guest

Nearly every “just friends” situation I’ve been in started with a spark of genuine attraction, flirting, usually a subtle come-on. And then, somehow, I failed to act aggressively enough to close the deal. Boom – friend zone. (Of course, a woman would never admit after the fact the fact that she was attracted.) Because of that, IMO the internet has read far too much into this nice/jerk dualism. Women want what they think is genuine desire, a guy who is so hot for them that his boner’s about to rip through his pants. Reluctance & hesitation is unattractive. A “nice… Read more »

Lad
Guest
Lad

I don’t know if ‘nice guys play by the rules’. The rules clearly state it’s on the man to make a move. The problem with the friendzone thing is that the guys (usually young guys) stuck in this situation often do not know HOW to make the move. They know the big picture rule, but none of the details. They don’t know how to assert themselves sexually in a confident, attractive way so they wind up making some needy beta play which repulses and irritates the girl. This is why guys like Roosh (and Mystery) give game advice all the… Read more »

Lad
Guest
Lad

Because of that, IMO the internet has read far too much into this nice/jerk dualism. Women want what they think is genuine desire, a guy who is so hot for them that his boner’s about to rip through his pants. Reluctance & hesitation is unattractive. A “nice guy” is simply a guy who didn’t have the chestnuts. The right track I think, but an oversimplification (see my previous post). You are right about the genuine desire thing vs. reluctance and hesitation, but sometimes that’s just a bullshit rationalization to cover up the real attraction generated by asshole behavior. An alpha… Read more »

wolf
Guest
wolf

“Lower-ranked men are always concerned with how others perceive him. He is constantly trying to manipulate those perceptions by reverse-engineering positive responses from people (esp. women).

The beta/omega is intensely self-conscious, is always looking at himself from the perspective of others.

The alpha’s attention is directed outward. He is concerned only with what he thinks of other people, not what they think of him.”

Agreed.

Don’t really care for these labels like “alpha beta omega” males but I’ll try to use the words.

It’s your attitude plain and simple. She comes into your world not the other way around.

xsplat
Guest

“I’ve always felt that talking about outcome-independence is a bit misleading. ” Ya, that’s an interesting idea to think about. I think there are many mistaken assumptions around the idea of outcome independence. First off, it doesn’t make sense for a guy with romantic needs and a desire for intimacy and attachment to model himself after a dark triad type personality. Doing so will make it impossible to deal with the emotions that we feel, and we’ll have “energy blockages” and constrictions in our thought flows. As George Orwell said, “Even a single taboo can have an all-round crippling effect… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

The saddest thing to me in all this, is that women really can get what they desire without any work. Yes, but you have to look at the other side of the coin as well. 1) Barring some kind of mental issue, a man has more ability to increase his SMV. A woman’s value is determined primarily my genetics. That’s why it amazes me that so many chicks are fat these days- they are squandering the opportunity to exponentially increase their market value. 2) A man who is willing to put in the work can have a SMV that is… Read more »

HeligKo
Guest

I agree with all your points. The point I was trying to make is there in your comment about how many fat chicks there are now. They stay fat, because they get sexually noticed in the modern world. No work on their part. If they were pursuing something more, they would put the effort into being sexually attractive(not to be confused with slutty, they got that down). This of course goes against the societal mores that we have thanks to feminism. They also don’t get, at least completely, that their slutty looks only goes so far. Age takes away from… Read more »

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Tobin Rote
Guest

@Lad

It’s an intentional oversimplification because all too many unproductive words have been burned on this faux-nice guy persona. As Rollo concludes, it’s just the means to discard a dead-end romantic prospect (without stating the real reasons).

In most cases, the prospective nice guy just needs to ‘bust a move’ (as the old song goes), or “next” them. Note even the Long Con guy linked above made a successful pass the next time he saw the girl, getting her into his bed. No jerk required.

S
Guest

The relationship between the “nice” guys and the “alphas” kind of reminds me of families where there is one strict parent and one lenient parent.

xsplat
Guest

I think a part of outcome independence has to do with men being agentic, and women neotenous. Women are like our children, and are not expected to be fully individuals. And they expect men to be self sufficient and to take care of our own needs. Women only feel a desire to nurture their children. They give solace to their babies when distressed, but they aren’t useful to men for that. So it’s an emotional trick – to want something from the girl – sex – but to not want it like a child wants a nipple. You want it… Read more »

Juan
Guest
Juan

How about this: nice guys actually are nice people. When they are nice, then get rejected, they don’t rant about women because they are really mysoginistic jerks, but because they are reacting rationally to an unfair outcome.

Augen
Guest
Augen

I like the direction Lad was taking this that “Nice Guy” is an oversimplification. First, it isn’t being nice, per se. Second, close but different point – Nice, and for that matter Jerk, has nothing to do with it. Breaking it down, the first issue is method, the second is attraction. On method: anyone can be a “nice” person or nice guy and its really irrelevant one way or the other to whether or not he’s attractive. It is only an issue if the person in question perceives his niceness as a means to getting laid. Examples: “I helped you… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

I recently learned of the etymology of the word “nice”. This word used to mean something very different that it does today, and it seems like it is the women who ruined this word as well. From the linked page: By 1926, [the word “nice”] was pronounced “too great a favorite with the ladies, who have charmed out of it all its individuality and converted it into a mere diffuser of vague and mild agreeableness.” [Fowler] Even with the new definition used by so many women, one of it’s main uses has turned into meaning *agreeable*. Something women very much… Read more »

Centaur
Guest
Centaur

A bit OT. I have a situation with a lady right now and due to the fact that we sort of work together, I really could use an outside opinion. Any place I can get advice?

Centaur
Guest
Centaur

BTW, I am a bit with Juan here. Some people are just raised to be nice- I know I was. My mom was a sweetheart, my father was a kind- if strong person- who would take the shirt off his back to help someone. How can a person raised by decent people like that not be a bit upset and angry to find that 99% of the world is for the benefit of the worst human beings? Sometimes nice is just nice. Not weak, not stupid or sneaky, just nice. I feel like we have surrendered something important here. If… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

I feel like we have surrendered something important here. If kindness is now a character flaw Kindness is not a character flaw. It is the kindness that is done for a woman because a man has her on the pedestal that women don’t like. It is kindness that is given with the hope of something in return. Women want a man to be kind to her on his terms, not hers. She wants to be shown kindness by a man who is not free with it. To be shown kindness by a man who is discerning, means that somehow she… Read more »

xsplat
Guest

Niceness and kindness tends to go hand in hand with other traits that are not attractive. It can be about bargaining for attraction with favors, which is not the most attractive sexual strategy. It can be about not having strong personal boundaries – a sign of being a social underling. Being kind and nice by itself, as others have insightfully pointed out, is neutral. Successfully being a jerk is a signal of dominance. If you are being a jerk without portraying social dominance, then it’s not attractive. But being a jerk tends to go hand in hand with dominance traits.… Read more »

anon
Guest
anon

“Sometimes nice is just nice. Not weak, not stupid or sneaky, just nice.” Agreed. Some of you guys are starting to sound like the deluded Ivory Tower feminists we all like to deride. Step away from the blogosphere for a while and leave the heart of whichever metropolitan area you happen to find yourself in and look at the men around you. Most of them are nice simply because most people aren’t sociopaths. It’s not only what they were taught, it’s what comes naturally to them. There’s no devious ploy to trick women into bed with niceness. Most guys just… Read more »

Centaur
Guest
Centaur

“It is the kindness that is done for a woman because a man has her on the pedestal that women don’t like. It is kindness that is given with the hope of something in return.” Thats a hell of alot of mind reading power to put into a womans hands. Here is the thing, people tend to do things for people they like. Whether you read that as some type of manipulation or sincere is really more likely a case of projection on the part of the receiver- especially when that person is a woman. Women are just not reliable… Read more »

In The Frigid North
Guest

@Mentu I think you make a bad assumption about the “nice guy’s” ability to understand his own place in the SMP. A realistic view of the SMP comes after, not before the red pill, and seems essential to your “bitter nice guy” model. As Heartiste has noted, the nice guy rarely gets to see feral female nature, and is more likely to pedestalize, assume female virtue and invent female rationality. Without the knowledge and experience needed to hold the woman in contempt, I don’t think that’s part of his initial feelings. The nice guy doesn’t, as you argue, “know way… Read more »

Samuel Solomon
Guest

I didn’t have time to read the comments but I will say that while I generally agree with the original post, I think there is some merit to the assertions described. I think they just said it wrong. Fact is, a lot of the betas that run nice-guy game with their oneitis- they can be some of the most passive-aggressive dudes around. Fact is, their masculinity is in there somewhere, and it resents women for being too stupid to appreciate their beta-provider ways, and also they resent having to kiss ass just to get laid, when its such a pain,… Read more »

Emma the Emo
Guest
Emma the Emo

I hate this “you’re only nice to me cuz I you want sex” thing. Like you’re a jerk because you want to have sex. Is someone a jerk if they want to eat? However, it’s a bad thing to do to yourself. I know I want to see the real him, not an act. Heck, even whining “misogynist” rants are more fun. It’s even hard to become good friends with someone fast, as to begin with you’re so nice to each other and not all that open. So when a guy acts too nice to me right in the beginning… Read more »

theprofessor
Guest

@AB Dada,

I’m interested in your paleo vs. neogamy theory. Especially living in a big blue city like NYC… everyone is conditioned to instant gratification. Low-reward lifestyle type girls seem to make great LTRs. These types of girls are less concerned about maintaining appearance (lighter on the make-up, frills, etc) but usually add a nice dosage of femininity to the mix.

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada

@theprofessor: I really haven’t put pen to paper yet, I’ve just been doing a lot of note-taking, reading endocrinology studies, psychology research, etc. I just registered a domain at paleogamy dot com for me to toss up my thoughts and allow people to kick in their critiques and comments. It just went “active” today, so there’s not much there, but there’s SO MUCH to look at. I truly believe there is a very strong correlation between high reward actions (eating, TV, dating) and failure at long term relationships. It falls into my “relationship economics” viewpoints, as well. High reward choices… Read more »

Lad
Guest
Lad

A bit OT. I have a situation with a lady right now and due to the fact that we sort of work together, I really could use an outside opinion. Any place I can get advice? Can be risky. Odds are that if you have to ask, you probably shouldn’t bother. I’d say there are two broad scenarios where it can work out well. One is purely physical, fuckbuddy sex. The second scenario is when both of you are head-over-heels in love and begin a committed LTR that ends in happily ever after. In the first case, you need to… Read more »

bressslee
Guest
Candide
Guest

This is just a variation of Roissy’s “women hate hate hate hate betas (nice guys)”. Women hate them so much that they blame them for the sins of the alphas / jerks. 😀

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Nutz
Guest
Nutz

You stirred up a good debated over on reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/zcer5

gregg
Guest
gregg

Women do not want those nice guys because they are dishonest and passive-aggressive? Women do not want nice guys cos they are not attractive in the first place. Many attractive men are using and ABUSING women like they want. They are lying, manipulating, doing as they please and women are still with them. Many times they have feminine and bitchy personality, they are unemployed, etc. and women provide for them – they give them their own money or money form their nice guy orbiters. Attractive man could do as he pleases. Unattractive man has to follow the rules and even… Read more »

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

As a former nice guy myself, I can say quite confidently that the theory that nice guys are being nice in a manipulative fashion solely to get women to sleep with them is just bullshit. My niceness wasn’t a mask I put on to get girls to like me, it’s just how I was, or rather how I was socially conditioned to behave towards others. I was nice to women sure. But generally no nicer than I was to other men. Most of the other nice guys I knew were the same. Nice all around, and ignored by the ladies.… Read more »

GenuinelyCurious
Guest
GenuinelyCurious

@ A.B. Dada this is a fascinating observation – can’t wait to read some more.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

@Apollo, brilliant. Cosign every word.

Ted D
Guest

“Now, as to why nice guys get so pissed off with women when they dont want anything to do with them.. well it’s quite simple. It’s because ever since we nice ones were young, we were told, often by women, that nice guys where what they wanted. Be nice, you’ll be beating women off with a stick. Not working? Be nicer! We were also told that women were rational agents, like men, and would say what they mean. Take a womans words, and her, seriously!” The sad part is, I think many women truly believe the lies they tell us… Read more »

HeligKo
Guest

I think first, the connotation of nice is generally not nice at all. The betas are not nice guys. They are more sensitive and many can often be counted as good. I think women do want the good guys. They want to have kids with them, and then become bored once the kids are all in school and the beta provider isn’t needed as much. Then they want their big bad alpha back. I think the place where you see the most men encounter the lie the way you describe it is church. That is also the most likely place… Read more »

Ted D
Guest

HeligKo – “I don’t know where else the nice guy attitude is sold to men so hard. ”

Single parent female based households. I got a double whammy: Raised by a single mother in an old school traditional Catholic family.

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

Men were simply tricked into being nice (provide) to women in exchange for sex so they collect more resources (freebies) without having to reciprocate the sex in return. That’s all it is really stripped to the bare bone. I was a nice guy, now i’m a good guy. There’s a big difference. As a good guy I save lives as a first responder volunteer emt. As a nice guy? I’m nice to myself in going after whatever it is I want and enjoy. Every nice guy should read the book by Dr. Glover – No More Mr Nice Guy. Niceness… Read more »

HeligKo
Guest

Ted D – I see that. It didn’t come to mind, but a soccer game where it was raining and sleeting last season. I was yelled at by my ex for not sending one of the boys to walk her to her car. I was infuriated that she thought that I owed her an ounce of chivalry at this point. Walking her to her car would have made it so I had to drive roughly a mile out of my way to get that son, because she was on the other side of the park, and the way the roads… Read more »

HeligKo
Guest

@Team-Red – Great book, and I completely agree. That is the point I was trying to make in my much more verbose way.

Lad
Guest
Lad

@Apollo, I completely agree. That describes me well except in my case I didn’t even get angry. Who do I really have to blame except myself? The girl who friendzoned me in college? Who do I blame for catching oneitis? The church? It is what it is. I made all those decisions myself. Some of them were made in feminized ignorance, but I’d be lying if I tried to claim I never rationalized cowardice and made excuses not to pursue girls I should have pursued. I wish I’d had it easier but truth is there were clues and opportunities to… Read more »

Lad
Guest
Lad

Team-red,

I really don’t like the “good vs nice” dichotomy because it’s redefining the word “nice” yet again to the mean inherently dishonest. That’s neither true or relevant. Niceness is a part of goodness. Just because some guys claim they are nice but are really being deceptive doesn’t make niceness dishonest or bad.

brianA
Guest
brianA

Not sure if this is a good place to ask this question but I think it relates. I am married and I’m making lots of changes but I’m struggling with whether I should be coming on to her and overtly trying to get her into bed (alpha) or whether that just seems beta/needy. She mostly deflects me and we haven’t had sex for 5+ weeks. Should I just say fuck it and ignore her and do my own thing and see if I get any response from her or keep after her?

GenuinelyCurious
Guest
GenuinelyCurious

brianA – in my opinion it depends on why she doesn’t want to have sex. Find that out then revert back.

Note – better to go by her actions rather than her words. Does she still desire you?

Coy
Guest
Coy

One thing you notice in all these nice guys is that they have a sub conscious routine – she just has to see me , I’m a nice guy.Hence all actions come off as needy.And women just exploit them to their hearts content.

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

@ Lad When it comes to Women and sex it’s relevant. When you meet a girl that you want to sleep with and begin doing favors for her (being nice), she sense that you want something in return (sex) and the one sided exchange creeps her out because she is not feeling the tingle for you. Once you overtly confront her about giving you the sex she friendzones you. Now if you are doing something for her out of the kindness of your heart expecting nothing in return you’re being a good guy. But if you do it expecting sexual… Read more »

juan
Guest
juan

BrianA – Athol Kay over at marriedmansexlife.com is your key resource here. Get the book and read it. Athol is the Roissy of LTRs. If you don’t know Roissy, do a quick google search and start reading.

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

This is also why PUAs stress being clear in your intent and congruent to who you are. I’ve gotten laid much easier and faster just by stating my desire to sleep with a girl and my attraction to her rather than waiting to see if she was feeling the same. It also saves so much time and resources being direct rather than showering her with the former. If she’s not attracted to my physical being alone and what I present, I move on. Clean and quick.

theprivateman
Guest

Roissy to get ’em

Athol K to keep ’em

brianA
Guest
brianA

@Juan – many thanks…have the book but still not sure. I’ll post to athols site.

Acksiom
Guest
Acksiom

Huh. Something just occurred to me. . .I wonder if some men are nice to women they desire because they’re applying their own standards for behavioral attractiveness?

I.e., they believe women are attracted to niceness because it’s what those men themselves find attractive and important in a partner?

That would explain a lot. It might even explain some of the tendency for anglosphere women to behave so badly. They’re likewise doing what they find attractive in men in the mistaken assumption that men find it attractive as well.

That really could explain a lot.

theprivateman
Guest

@Acksiom I received this comment just today on my blog. The point the commenter makes fits it with your observation. “I wonder how many bad profiles come from people projecting their own desires onto the opposite sex. Women want a man who is adventurous, goal oriented, has a mission and other interests in life, etc. They assume men want the same, so they talk about their careers and hobbies in their profiles. Men want a woman who is loyal, kind, and good-looking, so they try to present themselves that way in their profiles. If all the men and women traded… Read more »

Nutz
Guest
Nutz

@Lad “Neutral: assertive, muscular, decisive, intelligent, famous, lazy, extraverted.” You should reclassify them from “Neutral” to being “fake jerk”, because that’s how a lot of people see it. In my experience, beta nice guys are often actually nice and have the good qualities women look for in spades. however, they tend to lack these “neutral” qualities and so they’re unattractive to women in general. However, the Jerks out there do have these qualities so that’s why women tend to do for them. Furthermore, when the so-called nice guys mature down the road, they start to espouse some of the jerk… Read more »

The One Reason
Guest
The One Reason

Quite a frenzy here and lots of good points. I agree that the approach of the nice guys towards getting sex is wrapped within a Trojan horse (not the profylactic one, obviously) but I also think that in many cases these men can be truly without any ulterior motives, simply being friendly and likable in a naively pure way, just “being themselves”. And, I have to agree with Centaur that — objectively and “ethically” viewed — there’s something rotten in that their niceness doesn’t cut it, but that’s the way it is out here. Team Red’s point about the lack… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

Outcome independence isn’t about not caring. It’s about not defining your self-worth or determining your state by the outcome. You’ll still approach the girl with passion, but if she shoots you down, shrug, that’s alright, you’re it phased as a man, you don’t doubt your self-worth based on her reaction. Oh no, your friends saw you get shot down and they thought you were a player…does their reaction phase you? Do you feel like a loser because of that judgement? Because of the outcome? When you’re approaching do you NEED it to go well? That’s all it means. Most beta/AFC/etc… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

*meant to contrast the beta/AFC/women basing their worth and how they should feel about themselves externally by writing that alphas base it internally but lost the sentence to my iPhone. It’s a simple distinction but it underlies a lot of game concepts.

BlackCat
Guest
BlackCat

“Nice” is damning with faint praise.

How do you like that? It’s nice…

immoralgables
Guest

@PrivateMan

Roissy to get ’em
Athol to keep ’em
And Rollo to understand ’em

blackbird.young
Guest

Somewhere up there Centaur made an interesting point. Also, whoever said something about re-defining or reclaiming through renaming these ideas by using a term like Dominant Man vs. jerk/niceguy also had a great point. I like to call it being a Sincere Man. Honestly being dominant, as per your ability, and doing/saying what you desire without apology, lest you are wrong. I clicked on Geishakate’s link and she had an excerpt from Shakespeare I thought was an excellent reminder of how one should think, concerning Laertes speaking to his Son on how to be, if I’m not mistaken. The “to… Read more »

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

@ Blackbirdyoung That was a nice little portrayal into the Hamster’s head and a perfect example of why it’s best not to try making sense of any one woman or action you experience with them. The absolute best thing to do is concern yourself with you and only you, and not pay any attention to all that noise you just attempted to interpret. It’s a code and not meant to be translated for your understanding. There are fundamentals behind the science but interpreting the Hamster isn’t one of them. Who knows wtf is going on up there, it’ll just drive… Read more »

blackbird.young
Guest

Thanks

blackbird.young
Guest

I also think it’s interesting that it’s called “settling down”. And, not trying to be rude, I don’t see why is wisdom equivocal with acceptance? I mean, it shouldn’t be. Soloman was the wisest of them all for a reason, million concubines and all, right? Because he accepted how things were. But that doesn’t change anything, and isn’t the point (if there even is any point at all left in the existential crisis of a comment) to evolve? How can we evolve if we just continue to accept things as they are, find ulterior ways around them, via accepting how… Read more »

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

@Rollo Thanks. I think it’s good that you wrote about this topic by the way. I know that for me, one of the things that really helped force the red pill down my throat was seeing a feminist response to the nice guy dilemma which was similar to the one you mentioned above. My thought at the time was: Great, not only do women not find me attractive because of my niceness (despite the fact they say it’s what they want), but now they’re blaming ME for this, saying that my innate and genuine concern, respect and caring for them… Read more »

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

@Ted D The sad part is, I think many women truly believe the lies they tell us as young boys. I can see the same women that told me these lies growing up had terrible relationships themselves, partly because they didn’t know what they wanted, which is why they perpetuated so much BS. They told us to be what they thought they wanted, but in the end they not only lied to us, but they deluded themselves along the way I have three working theories as to why women who demonstrate otherwise with their actions say they like nice guys.… Read more »

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

@Lad I completely agree. That describes me well except in my case I didn’t even get angry. Who do I really have to blame except myself? The girl who friendzoned me in college? Who do I blame for catching oneitis? The church? It is what it is. I made all those decisions myself. Some of them were made in feminized ignorance, but I’d be lying if I tried to claim I never rationalized cowardice and made excuses not to pursue girls I should have pursued. I wish I’d had it easier but truth is there were clues and opportunities to… Read more »

Lad
Guest
Lad

@YaReally Outcome independence isn’t about not caring. It’s about not defining your self-worth or determining your state by the outcome. You’ll still approach the girl with passion, but if she shoots you down, shrug, that’s alright, you’re it phased as a man, you don’t doubt your self-worth based on her reaction. PUA jargon and tactics get lots of hate and legitimate criticism, both for its tendency to use nerdy terms and concepts like “bitch shield” and “shit test” and for the tendency to objectify women “so I opened a set with an HB8 and 2 HB7s…”, but even the legitimate… Read more »

Zeke
Guest

It’s helpful to understand to what semantics are really referring. What a woman means by “nice guy” is boring and sexually non-arousing. It’s not a commentary at all on the guy’s character,integrity or any other personality traits. Therefore, when a woman says “You’re a nice guy, but I think we work better as friends,” it allows her to let the guy down gently and be magnanimous about the rejection. And when a woman says “nice guys” are the real jerks, it’s her hamster saying that those guys don’t care about her at all but just want to use her for… Read more »

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Glengarry
Guest
Glengarry

“Real men act the same with everyone. They’re not there to put up a front nor do they bitch about their failures with women.” (That is to say, act like women. Who are the greatest misogynists again?)

Glengarry
Guest
Glengarry

The fundamental nice guy problem is that he’s looking for love in the brothel. The fundamental white knight problem is that he’s defending the devil-worshipper, not the lady.

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Pirran
Guest
Pirran

@Good Luck Chuck
September 4th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

In other words, the fundamentals still apply (as time goes by). Jenna Marbles is rationalizing all over the place over this.

Men are attracted to youth and beauty, women are attracted to wealth, power and status.

Plus ça change.

3rd Millenium Men
Guest

Absolutely brilliant Rollo. Will be doing a ‘Best of the Manosphere’ post about nice guys soon. This will lead the charge.

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