Case Study – The Crazy

From a Rational Reader who shall remain anonymous:

I’m not sure what’s going on lately.

I’ve been in a weird way lately…about ready to jump off a bridge with the stress I’ve been feeling. I just don’t know who else to talk to.

Remember that long thread about the “obsessed girl” I was dating who I thought was “crazy”? I’ve been seeing her again…and it’s been a weird, weird story I can’t even get my head around.

I was honestly convinced she was borderline/insane, based on her murky past and her “unstable behavior”. I was done with her…had completely blown her off and was ready to wipe her out of my life forever. Then some crazy shit happened and we found ourselves forced to sit down and talk with each other about what had been going on.

She tells me that every time SHE came over my house, SHE was telling herself, “I can’t do this any more, I can’t keep seeing him, etc”. She said she saw a really great guy in me but the things I was saying and doing were driving her nuts.

She started rifling off this list of things that I did that drove her crazy/drove her to drink herself stupid…things like:

* Suggesting other women were interested
* Teasing her/negging her
* Staying detached
* Treating her like I didn’t need her/wasn’t that into her (she says, “like a call-girl”)

I’m sitting there thinking…god dammit, this all sounds familiar…Has becoming a “disciple” of all this Game bullshit been sabotaging me with women for years now?? Am I the “crazy one”? Has all of this nonsense just been a defense mechanism I built to deal with my OWN lack of self-worth??

I decided to drop all of the BS…and just give it a chance with this girl, legitimately, for real. No more Don Juan games…just seeing each other for who we really are. I’ll tell you…I’m at full-scale war with myself…and I’ve lost complete perspective over which side of me is “right”.

There’s one side of me that is absolutely in love with this girl. I mean, she is smoking hot, she’s intelligent and insightful (though she has what I’d consider to be “flakey” ideas about stuff), she has good practical skills (runs her own business), she’s VERY physical…more than me even. She does ALL of the good “wifey” things that everyone talks about…she cleans, she cooks (deliciously!), she dresses to impress when we go out together. She even tells me she doesn’t want to “monopolize all of my time” and constantly encourages me to do stuff I want to do.

As I said before, her past is a bit “wild”, but she honestly seems like she’s become more mature and intelligent and is REALLY taking steps to leave all of it behind. Who am I to deny her a chance at redemption??

 

“wild past”

“unstable behavior”

“obsessed”

“crazy”

These are your terms.

Her list of prerequisites to stay with a “crazy” woman:

* Suggesting other women were interested
* Teasing her/negging her
* Staying detached
* Treating her like I didn’t need her/wasn’t that into her (she says, “like a call-girl”)

One would rationally think a ‘normal’ woman would find any of these intolerable, yet there you are. So either she is in fact crazy, finds reward in abuse and lacks sufficient self-worth to NEXT you, OR, you are approaching your LTR (such as it is) from a healthy, self-interested perspective that she actually does respect; in fact so much so that she’ll pursue you in spite of it.

I think what you’re experiencing now is not so much confusion with her as you are in owning your role as being the primary partner in your LTR. This is a VERY tough transition for a former AFC to accept. In truth, I would say that accepting and internalizing a dominant role in an LTR for a nominally beta guy is more difficult than realizing that applying Game actually works in attracting women as well as thriving with them in an LTR/Marriage.

It’s really a second unplugging for guys. The first shock of ‘unplugging’ comes in the actualizing that everything feminized society, everything any woman ever told him about the ‘appropriate’ way to engage with women is almost entirely the opposite of what produces the results he wants. Once he’s become so frustrated by his dating life that he experiments with un-conventional Game and discovers that Negs work, C&F works, Amused Mastery works, etc. there comes a point of disillusionment – and sometimes despair.

This comes from the realization that everything he’s held as a long-loved ego investment about women falls apart. Half his life was spent in the ignorance of believing women were equally as rational, equally shared the same mutual desires, equally as sincere in her words. The idea of duplicity based on her being female, or not understanding the gender differences in how women communicate, was shamefully due to his inability to become more like her. In his plugged in life, any failure, any misstep, was the result of his inability to identify with her more perfectly.

So it comes as no surprise when his eyes are opened to how much he’s invested of himself in these female-primary conventions. This is where most men turn back. It’s too much to bear in the revelation that what he’s believed for so long could be other than what women have told him so he enters a rationalized denial. And of course there is a well established social network ready welcome him back and reward him for his denial.

The Second Unplugging

The second unplugging comes when a Man is forced to come to this power dynamic realization again when entering into an LTR. Most guys who reinvent themselves and accept their masculine primacy role after having been subjected to an egalitarian gender equality doctrine for most of their lives feel strange in owning it in an LTR and/or marriage. It’s really put up or shut up time. Essentially you need to become the Man you sold yourself as when you were spinning plates. Guys who unplug and employ Game are initially mimicking the behaviors that used to be respected and attractive to women. Now they’re considered socially inappropriate or rude at best, borderline abusive at worst under feminine social auspices. Regardless, the results are undeniable.

In an LTR you have to actually be THAT guy, and for a formerly plugged-in AFC, the old mental schema of equality returns. Guilt sets in because he doesn’t feel deserving of the primacy he holds because he still hasn’t let go of that antiquated equalism he thought was valid for so long. He wants to play fair, but what he doesn’t realize is his concept of what is ‘fair’ is still rooted in his plugged-in mindset. It’s at this critical point that most LTRs destruct, because the guy reverts back to his old AFC mental habitus, or the girl settles into the comfort knowing she controls the frame and can dictate the terms of her intimacy as she sees fit.

This is one reason I emphasize a complete internalization of why Game works. I catch all kinds of criticism for being primarily theory based in my approach, but if, and when, you transition to an LTR monogamous commitment, by God you’d better understand why those theories are the bedrock of Game.

This is where you’re at. Your distress is coming from a want to return to a simpler way of dealing with your personal life that really never existed. Bear in mind that the “abusive” behavior your “crazy” girlfriend is complaining about is the same behavior that attracted her to you. If you’re feeling guilt for playing X-Box while she waits on you, then put down the console and do something productive, just understand that feeling of guilt comes from you thinking you need to “play fair” with her in order to keep her. That’s the path to her controlling the frame of the LTR.


76 responses to “Case Study – The Crazy

  • The Shocker

    Lol he’s getting played, she only wants him because he gamed her crazy ass and it worked—- she’s only playing the wife because she’s riding high on the “I’m the woman who was able to lock his alpha down.” lulzy that he wants to up the beta game, yea that’ll last, clearly she loves hard alpha game, dumb fux…. run!!!

  • anonymouslyanonymous

    I actually think this post is very insightful & says something I haven’t seen written in any other manosphere blogs. This is actually one of the best posst I’ve read so far on any manosphere blog, as short as it is. Personally it confronts and confirms something I’ve been questioning and struggling with throughout my unplugging, and even with this last BPD [for sure100%] ex gf, I have to admit I wish I had stopped “gaming” her once the establishment for a potentially working LTR was in line. Even if she was BPD, I was pretty aware of the fact, and for some reason I still have oneitis despite it all, oddly holding not a single negative feeling for this girl. It’s hard to explain.

    We were at the point this anonymous reader talks about, and I fucked it up by relapsing (alcoholic, back to day 5 sober again), and then she snapped crazy and fucked it up big time with a huge, admittedly regretful action on her part, pretty much forcing me no option but to never let her be an option again, as much as I know about what could have been would have been etc. But oh well, there are so many women, I just want to find another who I can get to the second unplugging point with & move forward with it.

    Sadly, I wish I were writing what anonymous was, and reading this advice right now.

    Nonetheless, even if he’s getting played it’s by someone he apparently gamed or “played” himself, and his game worked, and now he’s gotta take a leap and see if they will continue to work both with and without their own game in a sense.

    I dunno how else to explain what I’m getting at. Great post imo. Thanks, man.

    And update: the TRO was dismissed, and I’m back to step one on my road to recovery from many things, including alcoholism, recent appendicitis surgery (day two of getting sober), the ex-BPD gf who I can’t get out of my head, getting back into shape mentally and physically, a job, back to school, jesus christ the list goes on and on and on, and the only thing I still can’t get off my mind is if only this crazy girl like the one anonymous wrote about would somehow by fate return to me and we’d be given another shot, despite the insanity. So that leads me to think I need serious psychological help because I desire such a negative person, wherein lies the problem, I can’t pinpoint a thing she’s directly done because it’s all been so covert until this last and final shitstorm she threw which she obviously regrets and I know not to contact her, but it’s so hard.

    Thanks people for letting me ramble. It’s pretty obvious who I am from previous comments but I’ll try and stay anonymous too.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Actually I was concerned it was too long, but I’m glad you benefitted from it.

  • Samuel Solomon

    Man I think you veered way off course of what is really the problem.

    When a woman shows deference and cooperation and respect, she should be rewarded with a better closeness and intimacy. She has shown that she can be trusted, and has taken a submissive position willingly.

    If she keeps doing everything right / the way she is told, and gets no further reward, no additional closeness, then her investment-by-deference is a poor deal for her and she will KNOW she is getting dogged and that he really doesn’t value her much at all.

    It is OK to show a little humanity sometimes, or even show a little love.

    Her devotion should be rewarded with a little devotion the other way. I’m not saying to get married or go all beta… but running game without balancing it with a little squishy love is not sustainable. Women that don’t get a little heart from a guy quickly realize they are just getting played and all their compliance is now just making a fool of them.

    Girls like to feel stuff. If you don’t feel a thing then WTF good are you? Make her feel things. Give her little glimpses of your heart and make her think it is magical shit because NO ONE has ever gotten to see this part of you. She will eat that shit up just like we would with a virgin where NO man has ever gone there or had that.

    Trust a little. Invest a little.

    A real man has a heart in there somewhere. Give her a peek.

    See what happens.

  • Samuel Solomon

    Additionally, if the man rewards her submission with a little love, he is likely to get more of it, just as a dog will be forever obedient if you give him a fucking treat for it.

    Throw that girl a bone…

  • Jon

    Should refer the guy to “The Pet”.

    “the moment you think of them as pets is the moment they’ll go feral on you.”

  • PermanentGuest

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but this looks like a person who’s not comfortable in their own skin. This might be due to seeing ‘game’ as a set of tools and tactics when he should view it as a primer for a lifestyle change.

    Yes, it’s a tough position because you’ve been indoctrinated on both fronts: mainstream and the pua community.

    The real guide is going to come from within. Do what you feel is right. And for your own sake, know your own value.

    Last [type]: Stop Caring What other people think about you

  • JHSD

    Rollo, I notice that this was a letter sent in from one of your readers. How would one go about emailing you? At the moment I have nothing juicy to be analyzed, but I may at some point in the future.
    Thanks,

  • Suz

    Yes. Here comes the tricky part – maintaining the delicate balance between alpha and beta. It’s the glue in physical/emotional intimacy.

  • (R)Evoluzione

    Good stuff, Rollo. It seems to me that this “second unplugging,” once in a relationship, is really a constant reinforcement of the positive masculine perspective, a.k.a. the alpha state, and a constant beating back of the betatized conditioned responses, until one truly embodies the alpha state. When that happens, the natural masculine responses take hold, and at some point become the default programming, .

    After spinning plates for a couple years now in MLTR mode, I still occasionally look back on those bad old days of betatized necromancy (literally, to love death, which is the epitome of the betatized state) with the rare wistful thought of how great it was to ‘abandon myself into love.’ Ha! Then I realize how self-flagellating that state was.

    Today, as I do every single day, I exalt in gratitude for the good fortune to run across the red pill, and having chosen to explore the truth about human nature, and to be blessed with the boldness to choose to live according to that knowledge.

    So I ask myself how I can help my friends find their inner masculinity. A good friend just announced today that he’ll be marrying the single mom he’s been living with for a few years. That poor sucker has drunk the blue-pill kool-aid, and I don’t know if he can be saved. He is a soldier on the battlefield with a sucking chest wound. Bless him, may he not suffer, for I can’t do any more triage at this point. He’s too far gone. I kick myself for not trying harder to reach him, he’s a good, good friend but lives far away from me.

  • Ceniek

    HOLY SHIT!!!
    That’s all I can tell.
    I am only very sorry I cannot read all comments. Day and life are too short.

  • FFY

    I’ve been in this situation before.

    This guy is seeing a girl hold up his game as an example of what drove her nuts.

    I see a girl who became desperate that she had too high value of a man and felt that she couldn’t keep him anymore.

    In the closing days of the relationship, they’ll throw all your game back at you and say *that* was the problem in a last ditch effort to regain some hand. Nevermind that everything you had done before that was all fine and dandy.

    “You barely called or texted me!”

    Worked fine up til now.

    “You never took me on dates!”

    Worked fine up til now.

    “You checked out other girls!’

    Worked fine up til now.

    “You barely complimented me!”

    Worked fine up til now.

    She literally just wants you to feel bad for being awesome and bring down your game to her level so she can win.

    Hold the line, brother, don’t revert. It’s only a power play.

  • driveallnight

    Agreed, 100%.

  • jj90

    How do you maintain balance? How do you even know you’ve achieved it?

    The idea of gaming your girl 24/7 until the end is a daunting idea.

  • Mohammed the Purple

    She doesn’t happen to own a coffee shop?

  • Anonymous

    This underscores something about Game I noticed – not all women prefer to be the submissive partner in relationships. The vast majority, certainly, which is why Game works as well as it does, but there are also many who prefer to take a more dominant role – something that’s been made clear to me many times in the BDSM scene, where one’s preference for dominance or submission in social situations is extremely…apparent.

    I’m not surprised someone would run into this situation with a female, extremely confused as to why she wasn’t allowed to take the reins and not satisfied with being a man’s submissive partner.

    I get the impression that a lot of players write off dominant women as feminist manjaw harpies and ignore them, but they do exist, I’d put their ratio in the population around one in six, and ‘Beta Game’ actually makes them happy.

    If you can extrapolate from the BDSM scene to the rest of society, about half of men and 5/6ths of women prefer to take submissive roles. So, the leftover single people of each gender are mostly going to be submissive. Game teaches submissive men to be dominant (or undoes the social conditioning which makes naturally dominant men act submissive), which is why it works. To think that acting dominant is a universal key to winning the affection of all women, though, is a mistake.

  • Grit

    What happens to you, you poor bastard, if you cut the game and then an hour later she leaves and gets fucked by the guy around the corner? Will it have been worth it to deny trusting in your own instincts? What if she is getting fucked on the side already? You will be made a fool.

    Did all of those ‘murky’ ‘unstable’ and ‘borderline insane’ instances involve sex acts with other men? You sound like you are describing a girl version of the 50 Shades of Grey. Aka slut.

  • Big Pimp

    I have exactly the SAME story. Just make the woman age 37, married and with 3 kids. Everything else is the SAME.

  • Leap of a Beta

    “It’s at this critical point that most LTRs destruct, because the guy reverts back to his old AFC mental habitus, or the girl settles into the comfort knowing she controls the frame and can dictate the terms of her intimacy as she sees fit.”

    Been there, done that. Multiple times. Get better with it each time though. All comes from experience and knowing how to calibrate to the situation correctly

  • Rollo Tomassi

    leave me an email address on the About page. I’ll contact you.

  • Simon Corso

    I don’t think of myself in terms of alpha or beta , just pre-game and post-game. Pre-game I probly would’ve submitted to the “crazy chic” tactic listed above.

    Since adopting the abundance mentality I realize that there are far too many women available, for me to waste time with ones that don’t make me happy… Or the ones who are constantly trying to change me.

    Post-game, several women have said to me , ” If you don’t stop talking to other girls then I’m not going to see you anymore ” And my response is “Okay, Bye . ” because I’m juggling ( or spinning plates as it’s called here) I really don’t care. And the best part is, as of now , not one girl who ever made these threats or ultimatums has ever followed through.

    So now when a girl hurls the old ” You’ve got to change or else ! ” shit-test at me , it’s all I can do not to split my side from laughter.
    ” Or else what ? I’ll have to replace you with someone younger and better looking? “

  • never give in

    High level post.

    FFY and Simon Corso are 100% correct. It’s a massive shit test. It sucks, but we don’t make the rules we just need to play by them. This guy is projecting because he himself doesn’t want it “to always have to be like that”.

    Remember once the cat finally grabs and pins down the bouncy toy, she will lose interest in it.

  • Joe

    Consider running Game Lite here, more LTR game. Switch from stronger negs, to teasing. Don’t make her wait overnight to text back, make her wait 2-3 hours. Don’t tell her you’d leave her in a heartbeat, ask her if she thinks another girl is attractive.

    If you really like her and want to keep her around, you can’t go all squishy (cuz then she won’t be attracted any more). So instead of driving her clinically batshit (that’s a real psychiatric condition I just made up) with your game, you want to drive her a little less nuts. Just dial it down a little, but be ready to ratchet it up if she attempts to gain the moral advantage over you.

  • David Collard

    This is a good piece. I have applied most of this in my marriage, especially in the last few years. It does mostly work. Sometimes letting the woman have her head is OK too, but you have to be at least minimally aware of where you are in the relationship. I never had to “unplug”, because I was brought up in a time and place where we didn’t get a lot of blue pill. Also, I have always been comfortable being a bit domineering anyway at times. But getting the level of Game calibrated correctly, and getting used to the paradoxical ways women think and react, is hard. It is very strange to see your wife vigorously refusing to do something, as she actually does it. But it does make you realise how very strange women really are.

  • David Collard

    I agree that some women probably don’t really want to be the submissive one in the relationship. And even when they do, they may do so to a greater or lesser extent. Even the same woman will vary over time in this regard. But I think the assumption should be that a woman will want to be led. The only thing I would add too is that quieter, mousier girls are not necessarily the most submissive; nor are louder women necessarily less submissive underneath.

    I have seen apparently happy female led relationships, but they still seem strange enough that they stand out as exceptions. Some people probably think my marriage is like that, because I am quieter than my wife. But in reality, it is not at all like that. But I have seen some cases that look real. Although one case I knew well ended in my sleeping with the wife, so that was not a happy outcome for anyone.

  • E

    A key characteristic of BPD is they are very skilled an being attractive. They are intense and able to connect strongly. As such, they have a huge amount of appeal.

    However, their emotionally unstable condition frequently spills over to their LTR, causing the “sane” ones to have significant problems due to the problems and emotional turmoil they generate. If you actually think you are dealing with BPD, then get “Stop Walking on Eggshells” or “The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder.”

    Also remember, that only when you have your life in order, are you fit to have a relationship with someone else. Work on internal game.

  • revolutionarycause

    Rollo…this is by far one of the best posts… it really describes and anylizes something that is not talked about too often, the second unpluggin. In fact I am going through this right now. I have manage to get the girl that I was crazy for by using Game. At first I was an AFC and almost managed to lose her. After I found out about game, i was able not only to get her back but to also having her being crazy over me (along with being able to talk to other plates and keeping them spinning). Now I am at the second unpluggin. I sometimes feel “guilty” because I was treating that chick so “bad”. I would try to be “rational” and decide that I was going to treat her better. I was realluy confused. This post really came at some good timing, now I know that this guilt is because the head of my agonizing beta self is trying to poke out, now i know i must grab the closest metal object and wack it dead once and for all. Rollo you are an inspiration.

  • Robert Lee

    That may be true, but as a man, I like Moses’ quote from the old Ten Commandments movie. When the princess of all Egypt asks why he doesn’t kneel before a queen, Moses says “My knees are caked with mud and will not bend.” She says “Shall I call in the guards?” and he says “Do you think they can bend them?” Ok, yeah, a movie and a little hokey, but you get the point. Real men don’t bend to their subordinates, and women are subordinate… period. If you start from any frame other than that, you’re going to get cuckolded… period.

    Acting dominant may not be the key to winning the affection of women trying to be men, but it is the universal key to winning the affection of women worthy of bearing your children and running your home. And that is truth.

  • Anonymous

    “Male” and “dominant” aren’t synonymous, nor are “female” and “submissive.” If you’re a naturally more submissive guy meeting women using Game and you find yourself falling for a woman who would really rather be in charge, you might as well tone it down some if you want to be with her, you both might enjoy it more.

    And don’t assume all men must be looking for a meek and submissive wife and mother for their kids…some of them are looking for goddesses to worship, some of us are looking for nothing but fun and adventure and tying ourselves down to one woman and having children sounds horrifying.

  • Robert Lee

    The way I’ve personally avoided relapsing into beta is by keeping alive the bitter long memory of the female who drove me to take the red pill in the first place. The caveat to that is not comparing that situation to the woman I’m with now (and being a sad MGTOW), just applying the lessons learned.

    But maybe you can touch on that in a future post, Rollo: Dealing with the absolute self-damnation of knowing that you maybe lost a really decent girl – the girl who drove you to take the red pill – solely because you didn’t know about shit tests, DHV and the lot. There’s a feeling there like “if I knew then what I know now, maybe – no, I KNOW shit would have been different.” Now that I look back on it all her shit tests were just an unconscious female mechanism for telling me that she wanted to submit to me, if only I could assume the roll. One day she even said as much! “I don’t want a guy that I can walk all over.” But I do regret losing her as she was enough of a total package that I went all beta thinking SHE WAS THE ONE! Yeah, I know there is no ‘one,’ oneitis and all, but still…

    Yeah, I think you should write about that: “The girl who drove you to take the red pill.” ‘Cause I see so many guys on these sites unplugging, only to go back to that one(itis) and try to make it work with new-found game. And lose.

    I will never contact her, since I know how badly that would turn out, but all the same I can’t seem to raise my scotch glass and cheerfully toast her as a loss for showing me what’s behind the matrix.

    “The saddest words of tongue or pen
    are the following words: “What might have been.”

  • Robert Lee

    I suppose. If you aren’t a real man, meeting a woman more ‘man’ than you might be your bag.

    It just isn’t conceivable for those who are real men, so maybe my perspective is skewed.

  • Justanotherintelligentintrovert

    Rollo, concerning this topic of inner resistance to unplugging, there is a theme I would love to hear your thoughts on. It seems to me that one of the most powerful sources of psychological resistance in this area is the fear of solitude. I don’t mean the fear of lacking companionship, but rather the fear of the feeling of solitude that is part and parcel of the experience of leading, of taking the ultimate responsibility for a situation.

    It is my observation that it is all to easy in daily life to take control of a situation whenever there is a void in leadership. Not because people are naturally servile, but because in most cases most people will be all too glad to relinquish responsibility for decision-making. Accepting ultimate responsibility for a major undertaking is a very heavy burden. There is a great solitude associated with calling the shots, as any business owner will tell you.

    In intimate relationships, the temptation is all too great to relinquish control and responsibility in search of intimacy and repose. If, in the past, more men were willing to bear the burden of decision-making in a relationship,it was in a cultural context that would have shamed them for shirking it. How many men lapse into “egalitarian” relationships simply out of fear and laziness in the face of this lifelong struggle? I absolutely think it’s worth paying the price of leadership and solitude to avoid poisonous, soul-destroying blue pill versions of intimacy, but it’s a challenge that has to be looked at squarely as it can be a major source of inner resistance.

    How many times, as a younger man, did I think of throwing myself into an embrace with a future lover as if it were like falling into a soft pillow of irresponsibility. John Wayne it wasn’t, but how many men are John Wayne?

  • Vicomte

    This is why I think of game as influence, not sorcery.

    You can’t control everything a woman thinks or does.

    I’m not saying one isn’t accountable for their relationships, but too many game proponents believe they pull all the strings, and a failure is something that could have been rectified with more knowledge and different behavior. This is where we get these ‘She flaked because you texted her back right away instead of waiting four hours’ shit.

    It can be narrow-minded to not allow for other possibilities. Game is one lens among many.

  • Vicomte

    John Wayne wasn’t even John Wayne.

    Marion had tight game.

  • Mohammed the Purple

    Axiom 1 don’t listen to women
    Axiom 2 don’t talk to women.
    Learn to grunt.
    Read Lord Chesterfield’s letter to his son regarding women. Things have not really changed. 50 years of birth control versus 1,000,000 years of human existence, women don’t know how to deal with that power. We just have a different set of circumstances to deal with. We’re kinda at the same point in our history timeline as a civilization as the Romans (if you’re familiar with Oswald Spengler) were when Paul the apostle was writing to early Christians to avert their eyes when they had to see people fornicating in the streets of Rome, basically rise above and not partake in animalistic tendencies. I’m trying to envision masses of fornicators out on my street, hmmmmmm. Women really have no excuse to say ‘no’ anymore it’s not fashionable, and the original slut defense shield, the strong men in her family keeping her in line and protected, are dissipating. So I guess I could game these vulnerable women to rack up notches, just go for the tattooed ones, the contemporary mark of cain (an uncultivated crop, due to a lack of strong men in her family showing her to be better than herself and the lemmings headed to the tattoo parlor for the cattle branding to convey how fashionably unique she is in her conformity) Within that 1,000,000 years why is it that only in the past 10,000 years (really a blip) did civilizations start coming into existence? Methinks it was to control the animalistic tendencies of women. Which sex just wants to be happy follow their heart, and holds more socialistic tendencies? Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I think Jefferson threw the happiness bit in there to throw a bone to the women folk. Once you come to realize women’s predilection to fashion and jealousy just apply the axioms provided above. As to game and constantly having to calibrate interaction for lack of substance, I still don’t get the need to be explicitly guided by these rule sets. Evo psych/hypergamy, global warmings big bangz, any theory thats only logical conclusion is nihilism, must be false. Game: If she does/says this then I do/say that, which violate the 2 axioms I’ve provided above, your directive, young man, is to really not give a fuck. As to making her aware that you’re checking out women, that bit is going to backfire on you, I’ve had my girlfriend point out attractive girls to me, I always reply “what girl”, it’s a trap due to their inscrutable jealous natures, I think she relished in the fact that I was a bullshit liar because we could both be bullshit liars. If you can get to the point that you see women as piles of flesh that line up once in a while into a moment of form that is perfection once in a while on perfect occasions, the rest of the time not so much, you’ll be alright.

  • Stingray

    Isn’t this one of the reasons men had “Men’s Clubs” to join? To get together with other leaders who are ultimately responsible for their own situation? A place where these men could talk and unwind, or discuss whatever they needed to aid themselves in their leadership roles? Whether it be a few hours of relaxation with a glass of scotch or other men to discuss problems, it was a place to be with other men in the same boat and escape that solitude.

    Do you have men friends that are like you whom you can do this with? Shooting range, hunting club, etc? If in a city, a gym? There have got to other things, but I don’t know what, especially in a city. But, even a Friday night Poker game would be something akin to this.

  • Stingray

    I sometimes feel “guilty” because I was treating that chick so “bad”. I would try to be “rational” and decide that I was going to treat her better.

    You are still thinking of it in terms of what you or other men would consider bad. In trying to be rational in what you believe would be treating her better, you are thinking of what other men or yourself would want. Not your girl. She might verbalize that she wants these things “better”, but if she truly did, you would not have almost lost her and you would not have won her back by treating her “bad[ly]“. You are bringing her happiness and she is crazy about you. Don’t go full out asshole in trying to keep her, but maintain that balance and you will be giving *her* what she really wants from you.

  • Phinn

    It’s amazing — this woman’s list of the things that bothered her the most just happen to be the most effective Game techniques.

    My wife did the same thing to me. 18 months ago, I was thisclose to being cuckolded by a guy with a better physique than me, a more upbeat attitude, lots of free time, no responsibilities, an innate sense of how to play hot-and-cold, and an attitude that the world was a playground built for his entertainment.

    I had to alpha-up quickly. Unplugging was awful. But I did it.

    But after the crisis passed, and there was no more immediate threat of losing my woman to another man, my wife started demanding that I stop exhibiting the Game behaviors — the same ones that had saved my marriage.

    Bad idea.

    There are things you should NEVER compromise on, or you’ll end up right back where you were.

    The deal-breaker, the Most Important Game Technique of all, is the implicit, constant threat of competition from other potential mates. This is the key. All of the rest — dominant/submissive issues, teasing/negging, detachment, etc. — are all secondary.

    Everything you do ONLY matters to the extent that your mate realizes that she has competition. That you have OPTIONS. All of the talk-talk-yakkity-yak won’t improve your LTR one single bit, compared to SHOWING your woman that you have options.

    You also need to show her that as long as she pleases you, you’ll stay with her. She needs to feel secure. But your love and affection are conditional.

    That’s a tough one for some guys to swallow — love is conditional. (Women have no trouble with this concept, which is why they file for 75% of divorces.) Some men think unconditional love is the ideal basis of an LTR, what they hope to find some day.

    It’s not. It’s make-believe. It’s as real as the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.

    You really shouldn’t rub her nose in it, though. Your appeal to other women must be shown to her, not told to her. And it must be obvious to her, not something that you go out of her way to wave in her face.

  • FNG

    @justanother…
    It’s not just a leadership vacuum. Thank God sites like this are beginning to fill that vacuum. It’s also the presence of a powerful, pervasive active evil. So much of society and recent history (re-written) has conspired to make our (men’s) lives contrary to our nature and to even question that nature. It is feminism, yes, but it is more than that. It really has become the matrix. Not much help to Rollo’s original questioner I realise (btw great post Rollo, as usual) but needed to say it. It’s a war.

  • operatingomega

    Game is the practice of creating a purpose-built persona / character that you play or act as in order to get sex.

    If the problem is that you are struggling to maintain that persona long term because it deviates too far from core concepts you have internalized as your “true self” then the choice is simple:

    1. Refuse to sacrifice the core concepts of self that form your identity and cease to maintain that part of the facade.

    2. Selectively sacrifice core concepts of self in order to maintain more advantageous parts of the facade.

    3. Completely do away with the “old you” and simply create an entirely new core self with an entirely different set of morals, character traits, etc. This would certainly require either immense willpower or disdain for the former self.

    Pretty sure Rollo suggests number 3 in the sense that you no longer play at game, you simply BECOME game. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I would say that if you value part of who you are, it may throw away some things that could be valuable to you. Given that the goal is worth it to you however (sex, companionship, etc) then it’s all relative and contextual.

  • Jason773

    I can feel what this guy is saying and my advice is to just be congruent. I’m currently in a 6+ month LTR and in true alpha form, I set the frame early by explicitly stating what I expect. I told my girl I didn’t want to, and wouldn’t, play games and mind fuck her, but I expect actions to be completely reciprocated. I am keeping up my end, and she knows that any deviation on her end and the NEXT button will be smashed without pity or second thought. I am a high value male who knows his place in this sexual market, and when a woman knows that you are self aware, she tends to respect that authority.

    If you truly become the high value male that you initially set out to be, the games don’t need to be played. That isn’t to say that you should abandon dominance traits (you shouldn’t), but rather that you can just be up front in your relationship. If you want to tell your girl you love her, tell her. If you want to send an ‘I miss you’ text, send it. If you want to buy her something because it made you think of her, buy it. It’s okay, even beneficial, to do those things when your alpha frame has already been established. If you have no tolerance for BS, a good woman, the kind you would even want to have a LTR with, will respond in kind.

  • Jason773

    Summing up what I said, this is more or less Rollo ‘dread game’, albeit quite implicit. I don’t have to say that if my expectations aren’t met, I can and will find someone who will, because my attitude and actions imply it.

  • daniel

    “She literally just wants you to feel bad for being awesome and bring down your game to her level so she can win.”
    I dont agree qith that. At least on a subcounsciuos level, what she wants is to see if you are really the man you are selling. It’s just a big shit test, but women want men to pass on then.

  • gaius mucius

    rollo, i’m in the midst of this second unplugging you speak of currently. i often find myself wondering if i should be nicer to her too. i haven’t been, I have been treating her like my personal call-girl. result? she now comes and fucks me on demand in the morning in addition to night. she’ll come over in makeup, (after fucking me and leaving because i want to fuck but not sleeep together) heels a nd a nice outfit at like 9 in the morning and cook too. its like her attraction to me is such a burden that she can’t get on with her day and do anythning productive until i’ve came and i’m full.

    no quarter, sir. honoring the prime directive, holding the line. duck to water…

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I am a high value male who knows his place in this sexual market, and when a woman knows that you are self aware, she tends to respect that authority.

    Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-threat/

  • killing oneitis

    Rollo,

    Your site is of there with the highest quality of the Manosphere. It has been a tremendous help to me post-divorce.

    I suspect a significant portion of your readers are female-initiated-divorce recipients who you have helped unplug and improve lives. We thank you.

    Was wondering what thoughts you have on ways to totally destroy oneitis with an ex wife? Let me explain: No divorces are easy, but no kids or alimony are involved, it’s possible to make a clean break, unplug, and live happily ever after spinning plates or applying game techniques to a better LTR situation.

    However when kid(s), or to a lesser extent, alimony is involved. The ex is ALWAYS there. You exchange the kid(s) every other weekend. You sign her checks. See her with another man, perhaps the one who “broke up your marriage”. You see her pregnant with another man’s child, or see the other man’s children, hear about the other guy from your own kids, etc, etc.

    This is oneitis on steroids. The flesh eating bacteria that can’t be killed because you’re around it whether you like it or not. There is seemingly no escaping the sense of loss, failure, and that fucking male competition element that most guys have.

    For me, no matter how many plates I spin, nor how much better I am doing, nor how fat she gets, nor how much “better off” I know I am without her, I can’t escape the sense of loss and the sense that something was taken from me by some douche bag.

    I don’t even want anything to do with her, I just want this burning feeling of loss and competition to go away.

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.

  • emmatheemo

    Hmmm.. Maybe he should go beta on her. If she resents him for it and breaks up with him, he will prove to himself (at last) that game is really necessary, and perhaps even lose oneitis, since she isn’t special. Plus she doesn’t sound like a person to have a LTR with, perfect person to test it with?…
    (sorry if it sounds insensitive, it’s just an idea. But I realize it might be too painful to execute if he’s really involved).

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Oddly enough I had entertained that idea for advice at first. Experience teaches harsh, but teaches best is usually my go-to reasoning, but this isn’t a case of learning about not touching a hot stove to realize it’s dangerous.

    Sometimes the only way a guy will learn something is when the opportunity arises for a ‘teachable moment’.

  • FFY

    which is why you hold the line…

    her winning = you failing the shit test

  • tom

    classic, that’s what always happened to me (and almost every guy i know) before i found out this blog… well i’m not the religious type at all but check this out:
    “Curb every passion, and be on the alert. Your great accuser, the devil, is going about like a roaring lion to see whom he can devour.”
    hahaha it kinda fits doesn’t it?
    spin those plates!

  • AlphaWhiskey

    You need to reframe your perspective. Did that douchebag “steal your wife”, or did he simply provide opportunity for the low quality disloyal woman, who gains pounds by the day, to demonstrate her true colors?

    Did he “win” the competition, and you “lost”? Well perhaps, but the way I see it he is now saddled with a woman who he watched screw over her ex and subconsciously knows she’s got a propensity for that sort of behavior, and it may very well happen to him too one day. Conversely, you are now a free man. You have learned much from your trials and tribulations and emerge a stronger and wiser man. The very sort who now has the awareness to prevent such a situation from happening again (via screening and gaming).

    This cuckolder is saddled with a high-risk “asset” which depreciates daily, and your options are wide open. You’re winning man.

  • YOHAMI

    Rational Reader: you’re an idiot, and now she knows it, too.

  • HungHo

    “if you dont tighten your saddle, you may fall off”…
    -Dwight Schrute

    Hypergamy doesnt care if…. you feel guilty for gamin her.
    Chess not checkers gents! Game on. Pause only when she sleeps..

    unstable? borderline? hottie? -bet the broad has daddy issues too! rough sex and choking should keep her ass firmly in line.. for awhile.
    when she stops cooking, then worry! She smells beta guilt youre done.
    You have the hand -stop whining about it, tighten up and live the dream son!

    Feel you though, unlearning is the heavy crown! beta brain vs dominant frame.

  • HungHo

    Been there. ingested Red pill and fuck it worked! Then she’s submissive and you’re like… “WTF now what?!” , Then you feel guilty b/c the game comes natural to you by now and you know you cant go back .. Youre scared, fearful that you’ll be outed and she’ll see herself as just a prop in a production you’ve created for yourself and her, and see you a wannabe player
    Fuck that.. I’ve learned through experience that its best to assume control over them than to crawl into it like an infant to its highchair.
    Shit I just think of all the times when I was weak blue pill provider and the ex walked a mile all over me.. (cheating, backtalking, not cooking) this too eliminates any guilt I may feel. Black or white! do or dont. there is no middle ground with these border broads!
    Final stage of red pill recall: Learning not to give a fuck. Replace and resume.

  • Solo

    Was reading this at the bar last night waiting for my buddy (yeah I’m lame but I don’t have time to read blogs these days)

    In the words of the great Anti-Dump

    “Brilliant”

  • killing oneitis

    thank you sir. you can whip these posts out like tools out of a toolbox! i like your take on revenge – the more one really breaks it down, the more one realizes that revenge is inherently beta. it’s tricky because the concept of revenge conflicts with the “nobody messes with me and gets away with it” alpha stereotype.

  • killing oneitis

    thanks! believe it or not, this is very close to the perspective i have adopted and have made strides with over the past year or so. i used to be a lot worse with it. what i find is that when i do have to see them, my frame occasionally relapses. especially with my own offspring involved and having the lack of power divorced fathers currently have in our society. think 5 steps forward, 4 steps back.

    it’s good advice, that perspective coupled with continuing to grow in my own alpha lifestyle i think is the winning formula.

  • Jim

    It seems like another reason many post betas feel pressure to drop the game techniques they’re using on girls is the vulnerability it causes in these girls, which naturally provokes feelings of sympathy in most men. Always keep in mind though, that if the power dynamics within the relationship were reversed then the same sympathy would not be felt by women over your vulnerability. In fact, your vulnerability would make her feel repulsed.

  • Linkage Is Good For You.6-24-12 | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

    [...] Rational Male – Daddy Issues, Women & Regret, Case Study – The Crazy, [...]

  • Gideon

    Rollo’s post was a complete ‘Whoa…’ moment for me.

    And this is a very insightful comments as well.

    Even though I’ve known about spinning plates for years… it was the one part of game I didn’t use much because I always felt guilty about it.

    It’s not in my nature to hurt other people… and I perceived causing jealousy and insecurity in women as causing emotional pain. But that’s a projection of what I feel onto women.

    The fact is that first of all they perceive these emotions differently than I do as a man. And second, you are right, women never felt sympathy for my vulnerability, only contempt and repulsion.

    I’ve known this for a while but Rollo’s post really brought this to light. It really is a second unplugging for me and leaves me with a lot to think about.

  • Survivorman

    “A good friend just announced today that he’ll be marrying the single mom he’s been living with for a few years.”

    Oh yeah – this has happened to me numerous times since “unplugging”. It’s horrible to watch – like a train wreck or an airplane crash, made worse by the fact that it’s a friend that is blindly/willingly walking into the fire.

    On one hand, if you (tactfully) try to “enlighten” him – he’ll get pissed off at you and break contact, or possibly accuse you of being envious of his “happiness”.

    Sometimes (maybe MOST times) all you can do is let you friends make their own horrible mistakes, and be there for them when it all turns to shit…

  • anonymouslyanonymous

    Yeah, the last point you made is what I’ve been trying to internalize & actualize the most. I have just begun to learn I’ve been in a toxic environment most of my life, and it’s hard to accept the truth of a failed father who could have become or remained alpha, but instead became extremely beta on top of being with a vile human being as a wife. His health since meeting this woman and marrying her should be big enough of a sign. Her behavior toward me should be big enough of a red flag.

    I’ve caught her cheating (or like in the process of, right before, or right after) at least three times. My sister won’t let herself believe it, but she did once too.

    It’s like my mother is the reason most men get divorced and my stepmother is the reason most men get stuck in a terrible marriage. I realize I’ve had LDR’s with both types of women. So, the next girl I have a real relationship with, should be my first venture outside of the Freudian realm of dating.

    This blog, the comments, and other blogs have helped me tremendously in realizing what that means, for me.

    I’ve had to put up with a BPD stepmother for years, this ex BPD gf made me realize, and just knowing that has solved half the crazy I thought I had in me; like I finally have been able to look at not what I do wrong, but how I’ve been influenced into doing those things form the very beginning; and I’m not blaming them, I’m just realizing and accepting that I kind of, well, really despise most of my family, and feel pity for them, in a way, and also hate myself for being their sponge and scapegoat for so long.

    My entire family is unstable, and it’s no wonder I’ve become as I have over the years. They tell my not to drink, yet will get drunk, start an argument with me, kick me out for them for something fabricated or some bullshit my stepmom will make up, and then my dad will manage to let me back in the house (or will make things worse and report me missing, tell people I’m selling myself on craigslist, call all of my friends and say I may be dead and where am I [at least he hasn't done much like that recently, that was years ago, but still, crazy shit that has made me feel crazy];

    Most recently a good example is something like asking my stepmom: Have you seen my librium, I left it on the counter with the stuff you moved into my room, but can’t find it; have you seen it so I can start my alcohol detox?, which turns into my stepmother starting a ragefit of how I don’t respect her or her house and how could I the arrogant disrespectful asshole accuse her of STEALING my medication that I ABUSE and manipulate doctors into giving me (srsly? wtf – this was a week ago). I didn’t accuse her of anything, I asked her where something was that was in a pile of things she had MOVED from the counter into my room. I said I left the librium on top so she would even see it and know that I was not taking any illegal prescription meds because I know she’s gone through my stuff before and accused me of doing so. She then went on some rant about more things wrong with me and how I blame everyone for my problems and I’m this and that. I later found my other missing medication which “she never saw” in the trash; the librium I never found, but went to the doctor and got a refill and have been sober since I started that detox and never abused the librium. The next day I was kicked out of the house (a week ago). I started detox that day. The day after I had an emergency appendectomy, and then her and my dad left back to where they are currently living for his job for some reason unknown to everyone.

    Another example of the BPD stepmother (my favorite, because of just how fucking crazy it is, and how much effort she had to put into it), this being but a common theme; something I have lost, broken, misplaced, stolen, said, didn’t say, do, or didn’t do, cleaned, or didn’t clean, etc…(I even had to go a year learning to be left handed because she was convinced I was lying that my right wrist was broken – which a year later after I had to get surgery she finally “believed” me and never apologized for what she’d made me do during that year – tasks specifically involving my right hand like cleaning “stains” in the concrete “from my cigarettes”, which were there before I even smoked and are impossible to remove, because it’s just how the fucking concrete is; and my dad just of course listened to her throughout all of it, unless alone with me, or drunk and feeling sorry would be on my side).

    Here’s a prime example though, and of when I stopped putting up with her the stepmom’s (I’m assuming BPD, I don’t mean to use it so lightly) insanity:

    I borrow her volvo for one night, to be returned the next morning (at a location no more than a mile away from her house). I park it in front of said house before going to bed, and sleep downstairs to make sure it’s safe. I have the keys in my pocket.

    The only other person with a key – is, guess who, my stepmom. I wake up in the morning and look out the window and the car’s still there, so I go back to sleep (This is around 6:30), then around 7 I wake up again to the sound of someone driving up to the house, getting out of a car, getting back into a car, and driving away, thinking nothing of it, I go back to sleep. I wake up shortly thereafter, with 7 missed calls, and about 13 texts, all inquiring about where the volvo is, how it’s been stolen or is missing, etc…I say, I didn’t lose the volvo it’s parked right outside the house. I look, it’s been moved.

    I then am asked to go look for the car that I’ve lost. I say, I’m not going to search for something I didn’t lose, misplace, nor was ever lost in the first place. Why don’t you, with the spare key you used to move the car which has magically vanished into thin air, go back and get the vehicle, and place it back where I originally did.

    After a back and forth for a while, with me not willing to look for something I didn’t lose, I hear a car pull up, parked in the driveway, rather than where I’d left it so I could see it through the window, and hear someone get out, get into another car slam the door, and speed off, clearly upset. End of disagreement. The car I lost is replaced by the one who accused me of losing it, and she had nothing to say to me after that.

    But yes, I must get my shit together, and get away from instability, and find myself a stable place, and then I’ll be sure to find others who are stable too.

    Thanks again to everyone. the world is a funny place.

  • anonymouslyanonymous

    edit: I asked her if I could borrow the volvo, and she said I could, just to bring it back the next morning before noon.

  • Nomad

    While the girl in this post may be crazy this post also speaks to calibration. I have improved my calibration significantly of late but in the past I have driven girls crazy by overgaming them. In an LTR it is essential to dial back active gaming (negs, preselection). Long term game involves more frame control and less active gaming.

    You can make a girl neurotic when she thinks that every girl wants to shag you and when you’ve given her the impression that you can, or are, shagging them.

    I have a girl currently who decided she would prefer to be a member of my harem rather than be my primary partner due to the fact that the stress of competition with other women for my affection was making her crazy. This is one of the sanest girls I have ever met, from a conservative religious background. She is still in love with me and knows about my primary partner. I have since stopped actively gaming her, only light teasing and frame control and everybody’s happy.

  • Team-Red

    Napoleon once said, “Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.”

  • Wilson

    Dominant women are even less satisfied with weak men. Honestly I don’t know if they are ever happy unless they can be broken

  • Black Man, Red Pill

    I read this post a little too late but I’m glad you posted this. The same things happened to me in my previous LTRs, I got too comfortable and lost alpha.I was the leader and I basically abdicated the throne.

  • VersLaGloire

    This. Although i can’t really complain. Losing frame and hand in a LTR and not being able to figure out why was what put me in a mindset receptive to new ideas. It allowed me to take the red pill. It was devastating, maintained a near perfect LTR for 4 years, let it all go in a matter of months. The true shame of the situation was that it took me almost 3 more years to figure out that I had destroyed the relationship beyond repair in a few short weeks of weakness (depression due to legal troubles that were entirely my own stupid fault).

    It took a lot of strife before i realized that a month or two of beta will easily and permanently destroy a LTR, even with years of solid hand and frame behind you. Once a girl sees you as beta, that image is nearly irrevocable.

  • Beenthereseenit

    Different people have different tolerance and preferances. So if your friend is happy with it, be cool with it. When/if he wises up or raises his standards…etc just be his friend and don’t say anything like I should of told/warned you so it’ll just salt the wound.

  • wingwoman

    Someone needs to meet actual women and stop reading… Nobody is dom or sub 100% of the time. There has to be some give and take. Most of the problems are just people who aren’t willing to compromise because of their egos or some power trip to compensate for whoever fucked them over.

  • wingwoman

    There’s no such thing as a shit test. Fuck men are so stupid. She was giving it to this guy dead straight. She doesn’t like his bullshit she was tolerating it probably because she thought he’d get more serious and stop being such a fuckwad. At this point it’s put up or shut up and gtfo.
    Woman don’t know what to expect out of a guy at first. We like to try and get to know them which takes a while but there’s no substitute. Lucky for men in the mean time we don’t have too many expectations in the initial phase etc depending on the circumstances.
    The only reason game works is on people with low self esteem( damaged goods but is that really what you want), the naive, and short term. Seasoned people get bored and jaded just like pretty chicks who constantly have to deal with people hitting on them because shit gets old and meaningless but sounds awesome to loser who have a chip on their shoulder because their egos and expectations are out of portion to reality. Your true colors come out eventually and any bitch that isn’t crazy is going to walk and be happier for it.

  • wingwoman

    By true colors I meant what a self serving asshole a guy is not beta which isn’t being used in it’s proper sense.

  • wingwoman

    You could make your wife feel secure loved and appreciated instead of playing asshole circular mind games. If she’s lost trust or respect for you that might not work so hot.
    How the fuck do you know about this other guy yet claim you were going to be cuckholded? That’s takes you not knowing or willing to be a doormat if she did. She probably did the same thing you’re saying to do which is to make you aware you’re replaceable or just dumpable even without a replacement. She was sick of your shit long before she said something to you about it. Most woman are super passive aggresive like that.

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