Intersexual Hierarchies –Part II

Hierarchy2

Don’t wait for the good woman. She doesn’t exist. There are women who can make you feel more with their bodies and their souls but these are the exact women who will turn the knife into you right in front of the crowd. Of course, I expect this, but the knife still cuts. The female loves to play man against man, and if she is in a position to do it there is not one who will resist. The male, for all his bravado and exploration, is the loyal one, the one who generally feels love. The female is skilled at betrayal and torture and damnation. Never envy a man his lady. Behind it all lies a living hell. – Charles Bukowski

For my more optimistic readers, you’ll be happy to know I don’t entirely agree with Mr. Bukowski’s sentiment here, however Charles gives us a great introduction to the next progressions of intersexual hierarchies. While I’m not sure every woman is as skilled as the next in betrayal, torture and damnation as Charles’ waxes poetic about, I do believe that his understanding of the male nature is not only accurate, but that male nature is actually the source of his equating women with betrayal, torture and damnation. It’s not that women are inherently evil, it’s that men’s idealism make them so available to being betrayed, tortured and damned.

If you’re at all familiar with Charles Bukowski, you’ll know he was one of the last true son’s of bitches – the unapologetic epitome of gloriously arrogant self-concern and masculine independence. For what he lacked in polish he made up for in talent and a brutal honesty that could never be acknowledged in the fem-centrism of today. In the mid 60’s he was a feral, instinctually red pill Man.

Charles, for all his musing on women, knew that it was the male nature that facilitated women’s damaging of men. The feminists of his generation and today simply dismiss him as a relic of a misogynist era, but his real insight was about men’s inner workings.

“The male, for all his bravado and exploration, is the loyal one, the one who generally feels love.” I’d like to believe that Bukowski was ahead of his time with this, however I think it’s more accurate to presume that, due to a constant feminine-primary socialization, men have been conditioned to interpret love under feminine pretexts, rather than acknowledging men and women approach love from different concepts.

In light of these differing, often conflicting, concepts of male-idealistic and female-opportunistic love, it’s easy to see how a man might find women duplicitous, torturous and damnable – particularly when his feminine ‘sensitivity training’ predisposes him to believe women share the same love idealism he’s been encouraged to believe.

Hierarchy2

The Feminine Primary Model

The Feminine Primary model of love is the idealistic fantasy the vast majority of men have been conditioned to presume is a universal model of love. In this fantasy a woman reciprocates that same idealism he has about how she should feel about him based on his concept of love. That love eventually has to (potentially) include children, but the fantasy begins for him with a woman’s concept of love agreeing with his own love-for-love’s-sake approach, rather than the performance-based, opportunistic approach women require of men in order to love them.

The best illustration I can apply to this model is found in the very tough lessons taught in the movie Blue Valentine. You can read the synopsis, but the plot of this film graphically outlines the conflict that occurs when a man conflates his idealism of the feminine primary model of love with women’s opportunistic model of love. That idealism is exacerbated by a feminine-primary conditioning since early childhood which prepares him to expect girls and women will share in it.

When you look at this model objectively you can’t help but see the Disney-esque, blue pill promise of a mutually reciprocated love. Men being the true romantics predispose themselves to wanting to believe this model is really the only acceptable model. The dispelling of the fantasy this model represents is one of the most difficult aspects of coming to terms with red pill awareness – in fact one of the primary reasons men become hostile to the red pill is an inability to imagine any other possible model.

Most men’s dispelling of this fantasy comes after he’s reached the ‘happily ever after’ part of this schema and he realizes the conditionality his wife places on her terms for loving him. He comes to the realization that women’s love model is based upon what he is before who he is.

While there is a definitive conditionality placed on her love, men don’t necessarily expect an unconditional love. It’s usually at this stage that men are conveniently expected (or expect themselves) to ‘Man Up’ and earn a woman’s mutually reciprocated love by adopting the male responsibility aspects of the first, conventional model. As Gustavo describes, “a man provides” and for all of his previous equalist conditioning that made him believe a woman would “love him as he loves her” he blames his inability to achieve that idealistic love on himself for not living up to being a “man” deserving of the feminine primary model of ideal love.

What he’s really done is convinced himself into accepting a woman’s opportunistic model while retaining the idealism he’s been conditioned never to reject – thereby leaving her blameless in her own concept of love.

It’s hard to consider this model without presuming a woman’s manipulative intent of a man, but let me state emphatically that, for the better part, I believe most women simply aren’t specifically aware of the mechanics behind this intersexual hierarchy model. Through any number of ways women are socialized to presume that their feminine-primary position implies that men should necessarily take the life and maturity steps needed to fulfill women’s opportunistic approach over the course of their lifetime.

We like to bemoan this as feminine entitlement, and yes it can get, and is getting abusively out of hand, but this entitlement and expectation originates in women’s opportunistic approach towards love.

Men are the “romantics pretending to be realists” and women; vice versa.

Hierarchy3

The Subdominant Model

Lastly we come to male subdominant model wherein a man, by conditioning and circumstance, expects love from a woman as he would from a mothering dynamic. Often this situation seems to result from an overly enthusiastic belief in absolute gender equality and parallelism, but the underlying motivation is really an abdication of masculinity and, by association, abdication of conventional masculine responsibility. There simply is no presumption of masculine ‘headship’ prior to, or into a long term relationship.

I outline the origins of this hierarchy model in Pre-Whipped:

These are the men I call pre-whipped; men so thoroughly conditioned, men who’ve so internalized that conditioning, that they mentally prepare themselves for total surrender to the Feminine Imperative, that they already make the perfect Beta provider before they even meet the woman for whom they’ll make their sacrifice.

The social undercurrent of an ideal gender equalism plays an active role in creating these men, and specifically this hierarchical model. Unfortunately the social and / or personal illusion of control this model is idealistically based on is usually overshadowed by the male-dominant / female-submissive expectations of the more naturally fluid conventional love model.

These are the ‘house husband’ arrangements, and the ‘gender is a social construct’ relationships. While the hope is one of a realized egalitarian equalism within the relationship, the psychological struggle eventually becomes one of dominant and submissive gender expectations in the pairing.

From Master and Servant:

In an era when Hypergamy has been given free reign, it is no longer men’s provisioning that dictates her predisposition to want to be a submissive partner in their relationships. To an increasingly larger degree women no longer depend upon men for the provisioning, security and emotional support that used to insure against their innate Hypergamous impulses. What’s left is a society of women using the satisfaction of Hypergamy as their only benchmark for relational gratification.

Men with the (Alpha) capacity to meet the raw, feral, demands of women’s Hypergamy are increasingly rare, and thanks to the incessant progress of feminization are being further pushed to marginalization. The demand for Men who meet women’s increasingly over-estimated sense of Hypergamic worth makes the men women could submit to a precious commodity, and increases further stress the modern sexual market place.

For all of the mental and social awareness necessitated by this equalist fantasy, men subscribing to this model inevitably fall into a submissive (conventionally feminine) role. As the red pill gods would have it Heartiste had a timely post outlining all of the logistical failing of this arrangement today, but underneath all of the trappings that make this model seem imbalanced is the reversal of conventional roles which place women into the love flow state men are better suited for since their approach to love originates from idealism (and not a small amount of martyr-like sacrifice for that idealism).

Essentially this model forces a woman not only to mother her children, but also her husband.

In the beginning of this series I stated that men and women’s approach to love was ultimately complementary to one another and in this last model we can really see how the two dovetail together. That may seem a bit strange at this point, but when social influences imbalance this conventional complement we see how well the two come together.

When a woman’s opportunistic approach to love is cast into the primary, dominant love paradigm for a couple, and a family, that pairing and family is now at the mercy of an opportunism necessitated by that woman’s hypergamy and the drive to optimize it. Conversely, when a man’s idealistic approach to love is in the dominant frame (as in the conventional model) it acts as a buffer to women’s loving opportunism that would otherwise imbalance and threaten the endurance of that family and relationship.

From Heartiste’s post:

7. Arguments about chores, money, sex life, and romance were highest in couples where the woman made all or most of the decisions. Female decision-making status was an even stronger determinant of relationship dissatisfaction than female breadwinner status. Women can handle making more money in a relationship, but they despise being the leader in a relationship.

8. Argument frequency decreased among female breadwinners if they were not the primary decision-makers. Lesson for men: You can have a happy relationship with a woman who makes more than you as long as you remain the dominant force in her non-work life. Or: GAME SAVES MARRIAGES.

When a woman’s love concept is the dominant one, that relationship will be governed by her opportunism and the quest for her hypergamic optimization. The ultimate desired end of that optimization is a conventional love hierarchy where a dominant Man is the driving, decisive member of that sexual pairing.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Tarnished
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@jf12

I would never say the actions of a group could be blamed on 1 person. If the majority of women are narcissistic in sex, then that’s their fault. Forgive my constant questioning please, it’s just that I am not like that, nor have I shared more than a simple kiss with another woman…Ergo, I don’t know how they act.

I will speak to my lover about his previous partners instead, if I’m becoming tiresome, should you prefer.

Tarnished
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@Rollo

That is both sad and interesting at once. I can honestly say I’ve never faked an orgasm, because I see little point in doing so. Well, that and it helps that I’m what my FwB calls “hyper orgasmic”. Apparently out of his 12 previous partners, I’m the only one who has been able to cum from not only penetration and clit play, but tit play as well. Again, I’ve never been with a female even though I’m attracted to them sexually, so I’d no idea this wasn’t normal.

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“So here’s today’s fuck-with-your-head question: Is going down on a woman the sexual behvior of a Beta care-giver? Does getting her off orally send her the latent message to her that you’re a ‘tryer’?” As mentioned above, it depends on the context. I have a normal healthy mating instinct. I don’t want to stick my dick in a woman’s asshole or cum in her mouth. I like pussy. That’s where I want to cum. I like the way it looks, smells, tastes and feels on my lips and tongue as well as dick. It makes her nice and juicy slippery… Read more »

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Going down seems beta to me. You are in a vulnerable position, not only are you not getting satisfaction out of it but it is also uncomfortable, etc.

Anecdotally, the guys that seem to profess to like it the most also seem the most beta otherwise and vice versa.

I stopped doing it a few years ago and haven’t had any complaints.

titanic
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I don’t know … there’s some satisfaction in getting that pussy to spasm and queef … but maybe that’s just my beta conditioning talking.

Angry Gamer
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@ Mark Minter @ Rollo I disagree that Marriage somehow came out of an agreement amongst Lesser Males and Lesser Females. Marriage (of one man and one or more women) predates history. If this were a reproductive strategy for 20% Betas… why has it persisted? Why has the construct of marriage been so successful that it has been implemented world wide by nearly every culture? To answer this consider the story of the Irish King Niall of the Nine Hostages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages This guy was a prolific f*cker. “Early in 2006, geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin suggested that Niall may have… Read more »

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@titanic, yes being happy to please your woman is indeed beta. I’m beta, so I’m not judging negatively, merely realistically. An alpha is happy to be making her be pleasing to him.

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@Rollo, “In the end hypergamy doesn’t even care if the woman is sexually satisfied or not – that’s up to her” Yes and no. It’s up to her beta to care, because he cares more than she does. There’s talk of lesbian bed death and women’s lack of masturbation (serious, women have to take classes in how to, and are always being scolded by their lady teachers that they aren’t in touch with themselves enough), but it doesn’t go nearly far enough. After the honeymoon period, which is half as long as hetero honeymoon periods because there’s two women, the… Read more »

Tarnished
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Classes on how to masturbate? Dafaq?
That can’t be real, or it has to mean “tantric” masturbation or something…What’s next, classes on how to breathe correctly?

jf12
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@Tarnished, yes, really. Instruction booklets, “certified” teachers, and everything. It’s also part of many public schools’ sex education for girls. Only for girls.

According to society, women’s sexuality is to be cherished, nurtured, carefully encouraged like a tiny ember which can be fed Tinder slowly until the little flame is hot enough to melt some minimarshmallows.

Men’s sexuality is to be punished, discouraged, shoved into the basement along with the xbox and cheetos, doused with a hose if he starts acting randy.

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“@titanic, yes being happy to please your woman is indeed beta.” Again, it depends on the context. If you try to please your woman all the time because you think it will buy you attraction and/or ‘security’, that is indeed beta and blue-pill. Taken too far, the idea that there is something wrong with occaisionally trying to please a woman implies that only psychopaths are not beta. Because a psychologically healthy person pleases themselves by now and then pleasing someone they care about. It’s about empathy. But I suppose feeling empathy towards a woman is considered beta too Hey, I… Read more »

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On cunnilingus, Titanic has the right of it. When you please your woman because you want to please her, it’s Alpha. Also, women need Alpha and Beta, so if you are going all Dark Side, CH on her and don’t fulfill her needs for security, she won’t be happy and eventually will leave you. It’s about balance: treat her like a princess in the relationship, but never forget you’re the prince. Buy her flowers and create a romantic picknick, but expect homecooked meals and blowjobs. Just command her to come over, then ravage her with your mouth. Then take her… Read more »

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@jf12 Can honestly say I’ve never seen/heard of such a thing. Sounds like a waste of taxpayer dollars. I’m all for true sex education in schools (rather than the magnificent ineffectualness of abstinence-only), but teaching girls to masturbate is just weird. So it’s assumed that females couldn’t pleasure their way out of a wet paper bag, but I’m guessing they also assume every male is well versed in it? Sexism at it’s finest. Neither male nor female sexuality is better or worse than the other. Both are required for reproduction and bonding, and both can be extremely pleasurable. Why is… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Rollo

Oh, and just from rereading that blurb you posted…”urinate out the sperm”? Sorry but how exactly would this even happen? The act of urination has nothing to do with the vagina as the urethra isn’t in there. Is this part of the joke and I’m just missing it completely?

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Re: “only psychopaths are not beta” to some degree.

Correct. As an examplar, as an extreme example, the full-out dark triad evil abuser is the alphaest, only out for his pleasure all the time.

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@Tarnished, keep in mind even today when a married woman is sexually unsatisfied all women blame that woman’s man 100%, despite the lipservice (pun) to the idea that she could exert a little effort on herself sometimes.

Tarnished
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@jf12

You mean she should be responsible for her own orgasms, be honest and communicative about what she likes in bed, gently direct him if he’s doing something “wrong”, ask him what he enjoys most and pay attention to his body language, and work just as hard as her man to make sure both of them are satisfied?

Nah, sounds too easy. /sarcasm

TheMonkeyKing
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I am interested to know if guys in the Manosphere practice what they preach; i.e bravado is a cardinal sign of beta tendency….

Steve H
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In my view, what’s missing from Bellum’s equation is the cold hard fact that women never stop testing, never stop creating drama. I agree that over-thinking ways to proactively manipulate is disadvantageous, however it is concomitantly wise to equip oneself with empowering responses to disrespect, poor treatment, or garden-variety shit tests.

Mark Minter
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@Rollo The Houston Chronicle had this whole series, 6 parts, called “The Evolutionary Mystery of the Female Orgasm.” It goes through various theories about why the thing even exists because her orgasm certainly isn’t a necessary component of conception. The first idea was that it was an artifact of evolution, the clitoris as female analog to a male penis. But then this big evolutionary idea permeates that “nothing is for nothing”, meaning everything is there for some reason. So the money section to me was Part 5. http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/the-evolutionary-mystery-of-female-orgasm-part-v-an-evaluation-test/44543 This part says she uses it as “signal” of fitness. It made… Read more »

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@MM female orgasm is vestigial. At best. Females please alphas, not other way around. “I don’t know if female grizzlies experience orgasm” not with alphas.

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@Mark: So if the orgasm is so fickle, so elusive, so hard to start her up, then it could be as if, when she does have one, subconscious signals are telling her “this guy is the one”. Very good, Mark. That’s the random factor. But it could also be linked to emotional security. I mean, if she is emotionally attached, she might orgasm more easily and frequently (hypothesis). Also, have you done any research that might indicate a link between verbal communication and female arousal/orgasm? I have heard that the male tongue might be the most powerful sexual organ he… Read more »

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@Chokmah, women orgasm percentagewise more frequently and harder when in love in a long term relationship with one man. But they appreciate him less and less.

Mark Minter
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I would add one last thing then I am off this thread. Stats show that 30% of women can’t have an orgasm at all, another 1/3 can only have clitoral orgasms, then another 1/3 can have vaginal orgasms. There are multiple arguments as to why those 30% that can’t have them. You might argue they never get a high enough status male to fuck them and the schlubs that do don’t ring her bell. And the same could go for the one third that have clitoral orgasms. But one thing is for sure, the woman that has vaginal orgasms with… Read more »

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@jf12 If the female orgasm is vestigial, then that would mean the male one would be too since they stem from the same biological structures in most mammals. From gendertree dot com; “All embryos are identical in external appearance for the first eight weeks of gestation, and then several factors nudge the infant toward male or female development. In the seventh week, the embryo has both male and female primordial ducts. In the normal female fetus, the millerian duct system then develops into oviducts and a uterus. In the normal male fetus, the wolferian duct system on each side develops… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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“First, it is like writing off a girl if she is a vegetarian. Just fucking fire her if she is. It is far easier to be with one that is not. She is picky and wishes to impose herself on the world. The woman that isn’t less prone to be this way, less difficult to arrive at decisions about restaurants and about grocery shopping. So if that woman will not eat Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, and like it, then dump her. You remove tons of headaches and complications.”

+1.

Difficult to please at the dinner table = difficult to please in general.

Chokmah
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Thanks, guys, for the excellent comments and clarity. I will be off for a while.

Tarnished
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@MM Vaginal orgasms are great, but in essence they are still clitoral orgasms…some women just don’t have a well placed g-spot it seems. Question: how are vegetarians imposing themselves? If I go to a steakhouse with my FwB, I’ll order a salad and buy him his steak and potatoes. If I’m cooking us a meal, he gets meat and I don’t. If one is a responsible adult instead of a whiny bitch who expects people to cater to his/her dietary choices, it shouldn’t be that bad. Though if you’re talking about militaristic, force-my-diet-down-your-throat vegans or vegetarians…then yeah, screw them. They… Read more »

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@Rollo

Male mammals have nipples for the same reasons I’ve described above. Namely, that during fetal development we are all initially cut from the same cloth till about week 8. The nipples/breasts just become more developed in females (though even this includes outliers, since men can get breast cancer and even potentially make “milk” in times of great stress). See here for more info:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation

jf12
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Any man’s nipples will work if he takes the right hormonal treatment long enough. Similarly, any woman’s orgasms will be much stronger and satisfying if she takes hormonal treatment i.e. female to male transsexual levels of hormones. And she will exhibit mannish behavior in seeking those orgasms.

Tarnished
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@jf12

Men don’t have to take excess hormones for their breast tissue to work, nor do biological females have to take supplements to have good orgasms. It seems to have more to do with the females level of vulnerability than anything else. Or at least, this is what my own research into orgasm-deficient women has shown.

Outlier example: I have gender dysphoria, and slightly higher levels of testosterone than the average woman. However, even these levels aren’t at all close to what a male body produces on a daily basis.

At work now. Will be back in 9 hours.

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@Tarnished, I’m kind of surprised that even when you see and admit the parallel that you deny it. I’ll go so far (boldness has never been a weakness of mine) to say that women’s orgasms are vestigial to the same quantitative amount that men’s nipples are vestigial, and the quantitative measure of that sameness is the schedule of hormone treatment that makes them work better.

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@jf12

In case you’re curious:

http://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/tag/gender-dysphoria/

Softek
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Speaking of masturbation and pleasure, circumcision comes to mind. I was pretty pissed when I found out that the frenulum is basically the male equivalent of the clitoris and that mine was *completely* destroyed in circumcision, and I literally have *zero* sensitivity where I’m supposed to have the most. That, and realizing that I have a complete lack of “light touch sensitivity,” due to the loss of foreskin and frenulum. It explained why I always had to use so much pressure to feel anything when I first started masturbating, and why it hurt so much when I tried to masturbate… Read more »

Tarnished
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Really quick: @Rollo and jf12 I still postulate that female orgasm evolved for the same reason male orgasm did…it makes both sexes more likely to want to reproduce. Even if we say that female orgasms are “vestigial” (not as in useless, but as in not 100% necessary for basic reproductive needs), the fact remains that male and female fetuses have similar nerve endings. If, by chance, males were able to ejaculate without having an orgasm (as can sometimes occur), I’d still not say that the male orgasm is unnecessary *as a whole*. As was pointed out previously, there are a… Read more »

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@Softek

That is horrible. I’m sorry that happened to you. Male circumcision should be illegal, just as female circumcision is. I’ve no issue with an adult who wants it done to themselves, but to cut a baby in such a horrendous manner is child abuse, imo.

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@ Tarnished

“Nah, sounds too easy. /sarcasm”

Don’t you know doing what’s easy is seriously beta?

jf12
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@Rollo, great article you linked! Key takeaway “The finding that male-reported female orgasm intensity and frequency during sex were positively related to male relationship satisfaction, and the finding that men’s relationship satisfaction was only positively related to their reported sex frequency for men whose partners orgasm frequently during sex, suggest that men may indeed be influenced by female orgasm in a particular way. The relationship between female orgasm and male relationship satisfaction might be explained in two ways. It may be that female orgasm increases male relationship satisfaction. Alternatively, men who are satisfied with their relationship may be more interested… Read more »

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@ Tarnished It is horrible. It is child abuse. I would love to spread the message that no one should ever have this done to their child. Not all circumcisions end up as poorly as mine, a lot of guys have some foreskin and some of their frenulum intact — but a lot don’t, and the ones that do still have suffered irreparable damage and have to cope with the grief of knowing that they will never be able to fully experience their sexuality as they were designed to. Long story short, it’s genital mutilation, and the public opinion needs… Read more »

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@AngryGamer re: “I disagree that Marriage somehow came out of an agreement amongst Lesser Males and Lesser Females.”

I also disagree. Clearly marriage is the result of a gentlemen’s agreement from the betas not to kill the alphas, in exchange for the alphas forcing the women to give the betas a more equitable piece of the, er, pie.

“Do women “know” or “by instinct perceive” the benefit of offspring by Alphas?”

Sure, but their pickers are broken.

BlackPoisonSoul
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@Mark Minter, @TheMonkeyKing, @Tarnished – I have noticed from being with two vegans/vegetarians, plus a vegetarian friend, that if they are really into you then the whole vegan/vegetarian thing goes out the window and they’ll start eating meat again. It doesn’t take long for this to manifest.

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@Tarnished re: “the remaining 2/3 who *don’t* require supplements would attest that they are not necessary.”

Keep in mind I’m not advocating taking supplements, I’m merely stating unequivocally what would happen if they were taken. An average healthy male has much thicker and stronger pelvic floor muscles than an average healthy female. Much thicker, much stronger.

Jordan Belfort
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On the flip side of cunnilingus,the best measure to see if a girl really likes you, is by how dirty she gets with you in bed. If a girl blows you, sucks your balls, and rims you, consider yourself top sexual priority in her world. It’s far more revealing to measure what she does to you, rather than what she lets you do to her. This has been stated many times on this website but it really needs to be drilled into some guys that girls are very feral minded in the presence of alpha. I remember having a wild… Read more »

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@jf12 Of course. If men are given estrogen, they will develop breasts and get emotional easier (in general). If women are given testosterone, they will grow facial hair, have an easier time developing muscles, and their libido will rise (in general). That is true so if that’s what you were saying I agree. The thing about the pelvic floor muscles is interesting. Where did you hear that? I was taught that women had stronger ones due to the fact they are made to carry 10+ extra pounds while pregnant. Do you have any data supporting your claim? I tried googling… Read more »

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@blackpoisonsoul

Weird. I guess they weren’t doing it for long, or had weak reasons for being vegetarian then. I can’t imagine going back to eating meat just because someone else, even a lover, thought it was “easier” for them somehow. Then again, my vegetarian diet has a religious bent to it and I’ve been doing it for 17 years, so it’d take a life-or-death issue for me to consider changing.

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@Jordan

Lol. And what does it mean if she cums from nipple play or fingering or pelvic massage or from watching you jerk off?

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Robin Baker, in ‘Sperm Wars’ states very clearly what the function of the female orgasm is. When a woman orgasms, several things happen. Sperm already in the cervical crypts is flushed out and becomes unusable for fertilization. The vagina and other associated lady parts ‘milks’ the penis and any ejaculated sperm into the cervix. The cervical mucus, which acts as a filter inhibiting the transit of both infectious microbes and sperm, ‘opens’ for about 90 seconds, allowing a larger quantity of sperm to enter the cervix. Women orgasm for two purposes, 1) To give a partner a superior chance at… Read more »

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There isn’t any data on any one female orgasm enhancing fertility, at all. While it makes sense that an easily-orgasmic woman enjoys better sex and therefore enhanced fertility, other than effects of overall health no such link has been shown, and believe me no other link in all science has received more attention by more intelligent males for more decades. What is true is that a woman near peak fertility in her cycle orgasms more quickly i.e. more easily, requiring less effort, less time, etc. Thus it is more appropriate to say that reality supports the hypothesis that fertility enhances… Read more »

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As per that chick who made her boyfriend ask 5 frickin times for a blowjob before giving him one: What a bitch. I could understand if he refused to give her oral and she thusly didn’t want to either, or she just hated the idea of penis in her mouth, or had an overactive gag reflex…but to deny a type of sex to someone you’re supposed to love (or at the very least, like) simply because they “don’t turn you on enough”? What the hell? If you’re not attracted to them enough to want to make them happy, you really… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Softek I’ve tried doing the tapping as well when going over my childhood sexual abuse, but it doesn’t help as much as the meditation I do. I’m really glad it works for you though…you deserve to overcome the shitty cards other people dealt you. I’m sorry to hear that your penis isn’t as sensitive as most cut guys. Gods, I’ve heard of botched circumcisions (in as much as it’s not just a botch unto itself), but to not have any sensitivity along the frenulum and for the skin to be *that* tight, the guy in charge of your circumcision truly… Read more »

Softek
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@ Tarnished Have you looked at any of Robert Smith’s videos of Faster EFT on his HealingMagic channel on YouTube? I’m not trying to be pushy by the way — it’s just that I had tried Gary Craig’s EFT (the method that’s been around much longer) multiple times in the past and had mixed success, but overall did not have that great of an experience with it. If you’ve tried traditional EFT and had no success with it I highly recommend checking out Robert Smith’s method. It has a completely different approach and belief system and is a different system… Read more »

Don T Tread
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I think most men are miserable, either with how things are or because of a knowledge of how things could be if humans weren’t humans. Because of harsh reality, or stubborn idealism. Isn’t the real key to “happiness” being okay with the fact that, if you’re really honest with yourself, you are miserable, one way or another?

Mr. Odessa
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Brilliant quote from Charles Bukowski. This is real.

jf12
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@Tarnished, most women refuse to acknowledge knowing how hard-up most men are. Haven’t you ever heard the joke about why the bride is smiling as she walks down the aisle?

Most women are least giving sexually, even if they give in other areas of their lives.

Tarnished
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@jf12

All my friends are men in various states of relationships. Of course I know this. That’s why a good percentage of women suck in areas of sex.

Or rather, they don’t…

I don’t get it, because I throughly enjoy sex of many types (everything from sensual “vanilla” to role-playing bdsm). It boggles the mind that there are women out there who can’t/don’t initiate it every chance they get, especially if they have a nice, giving partner who enjoys it just as much.

blurkel
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@Tarnished

Anyone who had sisters and/or daughters understands why women seem to lack interest in sex. Their mothers train them from their earliest days to see men as requiring their control. Sex is not to be enjoyed for its own sake, but is to be used as the reward in a Pavlovian behavior control scheme. To do anything else opens up a woman to being called a slut by her peers.

jf12
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@Tarnished, re: “It boggles the mind that there are women out there who can’t/don’t initiate it every chance they get, especially if they have a nice, giving partner who enjoys it just as much.”

Yes. This is the reason that most men seek out redpill understanding (someone who is being successful with women usually isn’t interested in why he is unsuccessful): the women in their lives are mind-bogglingly lousy at desire. The very best that most women seem capable of is to lie there enjoying what their men are doing.

Richard
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The old romantic model did work WHEN the woman’s very existence was tied to the man’s. In Wild West Frontier days for example, when the woman was more captive to the man than his horse…. she better damn well love him unconditionally and give him every support she could.

Jeremy
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I would bet that the average frontier homesteader woman would make the most masculine woman alive today look like an infant by comparison. Survival and hunger has a way of making all humans, but women especially, understand the value of hard work.

Tarnished
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@Richard True, women had fewer options than they do now in Western society. Marriage was expected, and in most cases needed for the resources necessary for survival. But is it not preferable to have your spouse with you because they truly care for you as a person and want to stay to make life easier/happier, instead of them staying out of fear or necessity? I mean, that’s one of the reasons I’ll never marry…nowadays it’s too unfair to the man and basically unnecessary for the woman. Unless you’re of a strict faith that says “sex before marriage is wrong”, there’s… Read more »

Tarnished
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@jf12 That’s too selfish to be considered “real” sex, imo. Don’t get me wrong; I greatly enjoy lying back and receiving pleasure from my lover’s talented mouth and fingers. But it’d feel very…off-putting…if I couldn’t then service him in a similar fashion. Sex isn’t a one-way street. If someone just wants to take, they are hardly worthy of the term “partner”. Leech, more like. @blurkel I can honestly say that’s not how I was raised, at least by my grandmothers. I haven’t had female friends since 8th grade, so have little experience with that. My sisters…yeah, that seems about right.… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Tarnished …But is it not preferable to have your spouse with you because they truly care for you as a person and want to stay to make life easier/happier, instead of them staying out of fear or necessity? … Is it? Having too much food to eat, rather than too little, is often regarded as a blessing. However the U.S especially is suffering from an epidemic of obesity. Granted that obesity is as much a product of the high caloric content of the food sold as much as the cost of said food. That doesn’t change the fact that as… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Jeremy I never claimed that technology is purely good. Actually, we are in agreement that it has, for all it’s wonders and benefits, been misused and taken advantage of. Men and women alike should avoid overeating, and take part in more exercise. For example, I walk outside for 1 hour every morning if weather permits or use my treadmill and weights during the winter. It would be easier to not, but physical health and strength is an excellent trait to have. More Americans ought to. Yet this does not change the fact that I believe neither men nor women should… Read more »

Softek
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Sleep on the floor or a hard surface instead of a mattress, learn how to breathe only through your nose and using your diaphragm, learn proper oral posture and proper swallowing to encourage proper development of the facial structure, avoid blue light at night, get a Nature’s Platform and squat in the bathroom, use fluoride-free toothpaste, mineral spray/magnesium chloride brine and/or essential oils for deodorant, use natural chemical free shampoo or none at all and just rinse with water, get sunlight, spend a lot of time outdoors, get comfortable walking barefoot, wear minimalist shoes, the list goes on and on.… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Softek

Yes, absolutely! +1

Jeremy
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@Tarnished Yet this does not change the fact that I believe neither men nor women should be part of a relationship that holds one (or both) of them “captive”. My comment was not accusatory, it was exploratory. You posed the question: …is it … preferable to have your spouse with you because they truly care for you as a person and want to stay to make life easier/happier, instead of them staying out of fear or necessity? That is still an open question. Your use of the term “captive” does not fit your original question, since males do not seek… Read more »

Jeremy
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Reverse Rollo’s question. Ask any woman if she could have sexual access to a single, unattached, very physically attractive, very successful, very well-socially-connected man whenever she wanted, but she could never appear in public with that man, never be introduced to his social circles, and never have any access whatsoever to any of his resources (no gifts, no paid-for fancy dinners, no expensive vacations, etc). i.e., ask any woman if they would accept being the totally secret lover of George Clooney, with all his wealth, social connections, and fame being denied to her, she would literally never be known to… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Jeremy True, this was a rather open question. However, recall that it was initially directed toward Richard and it was he who stated that a woman was more a captive to her husband than even his horse. Perhaps I could have used a different wording, but I was attempting to keep within this tangent. Apologies if it wasn’t as clear as it could’ve been…I of course recognize that women are rarely held as literal captives in modern society. As for the aforementioned “myth”: I have no experience with this, and I don’t see how my relationship is transactional. (Unless I’m… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Jeremy This is what I mean…I understand, accept, and acknowledge the truth of your scenario. You are correct, 99% of women would most likely balk at this relationship. Women as a whole do look for resources in a man, and would generally not be with him if such prospects were denied to her. I *get* that. In this the red pill is bitter but accurate. Yet I look at my own relationships and the pill still sticks in my throat because I’m the 1%. I care nothing for my lover’s resources…I have my own, and 99% of the time I… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Softek I have to be awake in 5 hours, but wanted to just let you know that A) I’m not at all offended by your excitement in sharing tapping tips and will try to take a look at the channel you suggested tomorrow, and B) I will have a better response for you after work regarding circumcision, etc. Also wanted to let you know I appreciate and am a bit touched that you are willing to share such a potentially painful or uncomfortable topic with me. I have a great amount of respect for those who put their own troubles… Read more »

jf12
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Jeremy’s point at 10:25 pm seems to have been dismissed, or missed, by Tarnished at 11:42 pm. “I for one would loathe having a relationship with someone who only remains with me due to fear of unpleasant circumstances” Women in general do not function well by being treated nicely. It does us no good to be advised “Well, just pick a woman who will function properly then” just like it does no good to be advised “Justt pick one of the 1% like me.” The point is that most women have to be made to feel Dread of their spouse,… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Tarnished But other topics, such as the one we are discussing now, are so foreign to my own way of thinking and personal relations that it’s as though I’m reading stories from alternative realities. The idea that my FwB arrangement is transactional in the way I’ve heard the term used here causes me a great deal of cognitive dissonance. I *know* from my years of reading manosphere blogs, listening to friends issues with women, and my own dealings with them that ABC is generally true, but when I look at my own friendships and other relationships it appears that XYZ… Read more »

Tarnished
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@jf12 No, I didn’t miss reading it, it’s just difficult to scroll up and down on my phone all the time and sometimes I neglect to respond to a certain part of a comment. Making a partner feel dread to have them stay with you is abuse in my book. No if, ands, or buts. This is a concrete, unbudging part of my moral core. The man who pushes his wife to the ground to remind her who’s boss…the butch lesbian who routinely slaps her femme girlfriend…the woman who threatens to kidnap the children so her husband never sees them… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Jeremy 1. How are you defining LTRs? I’ve been friends with X for 8 years, and lovers for 7. Or is it just not a “long-term” because we aren’t boyfriend and girlfriend? 2. Biological equality is not ever going to become a reality, this is true. But we should still strive to get as close as possible in society. Misandry and misogyny need to both be eradicated, and laws need to be fair regardless of the sexes involved. 3. No, I don’t think I’m a “unicorn”. I do not think of myself as a woman so that might have a… Read more »

Softek
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What is it that we want out of relationships? What makes it worth all the effort? Are sexual relationships a need or a want? Again…the biological significance of sex and general affection in adults is very ambiguous. As far as I know there’s almost zero research done on this beyond some cursory studies talking about heart disease risk and relationship status. Which is not anywhere near in-depth enough to really understand these issues. I’ve been single my entire life. Never even had my own pet. I keep myself fit and strong, I’m a good cook and make great meals for… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Tarnished How are you defining LTRs? Not relevant. All LTRs start from a position of a freely entered into transaction, that forms the base. Your relationship may evolve over time, it may turn into something else, or start to include other things or even become altruistic (I know men/women who still provide 100% care for their completely handicapped wives/husbands) but it starts from a voluntary transaction. Biological equality is not ever going to become a reality, this is true. But we should still strive to get as close as possible in society. Misandry and misogyny need to both be eradicated,… Read more »

Softek
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@ Tarnished Thanks. My belief is “I’m not unique” — someone else is suffering with the same stuff I am. A lot of people are ashamed of their feelings or are afraid of being made fun of for expressing them. But when one person shares their experiences, someone else who had no voice can find comfort in it. A lot of the reason I’d imagine guys go to the manosphere is because they’re shunned/criticized/dismissed everywhere else. They’re just told it’s their problem, no matter what’s happening, and they have nowhere else to go for sympathy/empathy/support/understanding/help. Much like how people write… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Softek You and I are on the same basic wavelength here. One can be alone without necessarily being lonely, though it may creep in every once in a while when family/friends are all busy at once. Enjoying nature, sunlight, fresh air, the slight sting of overworked muscles as you challenge yourself to climb higher than you did last time…few people actually realize *this* is what being alive is about. Sex, intimacy, and the like are very weird topics. On the one hand, some people are denied them while others swim in them. For some, sex is all about numbers and… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Jeremy 1. Ok. Was just looking for some clarification. 2. As you wish. 3. If you think I was presenting a false dichotomy, I apologize. However, these were just two ends to a spectrum I believed we both knew about and took for granted. I never said they were the only options available, or even that one is better than the other. I believe I stated that different peoplehve different mate preferences and that’s fine. Things are *never* that clear cut. As for taking charge, I don’t know. I imagine most women do like it, same as some men like… Read more »

Tarnished
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@Jeremy

Oh, and I’m not “hot”. Others have said I’m a 7+. I don’t see it, and would probably call myself a 5. All in the eye of the beholder, eh?

Tarnished
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@Softek

I like the way you think, good sir.
Agree 100%.

Jeremy
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I’m not going to continue feeding narcissism.

Tarnished
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@Jeremy

Okay…? That’s a good plan. Narcissism is a poor trait to have. Better to be humble yet confident than irrationally prideful.

Tarnished
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@Rollo

Alright. Thank you.

Tarnished
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Okay, so when women out earn their men it makes it difficult to satisfy their desire for resources since they are the ones doing the providing. This then leads to the men feeling the strain of trying to keep the role of family provisioner, and they begin to feel neglected or unnecessary. Thus the women are also left without a male leader in the family (the “you just can’t handle a successful woman” vibe), and either get frustrated and irritable towards their men, or divorce them in exchange for someone who’s more “alpha”. But the article also stated that when… Read more »

Tarnished
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A “Man”? Not just a man? What is the difference?

And what, then, do men need from women? Comfort? Validation? Acceptance?

Tarnished
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You’re saying: Men want sex from women. Women want security from men. I get the sex part…Sex is great. Everyone should want it. But I guess I’m still confused about the security aspect. Women tend to have larger social circles and more friendships than men, so it seems her emotional security is covered. Your post discussed how many women are becoming or are primary earners, so there’s the financial security. Men as a whole are already more likely to be harmed or killed in fights/robberies/etc, so it doesn’t seem like they should be forced into defending a female just to… Read more »

jf12
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Rollo rightly claims that what women can give men is “Sex … and occassional appreciation.” It’s very very easy to make a man happy, which makes it all the more shameful to women that so many men are so unhappy.

Tarnished makes the all-too familiar claim that women love nerds and nerds have a lot of girlfriends. So, there’s not much point continuing down that garden path.

jf12
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Re: buying beta. One of the ideas I’ve had rolling around is that since betas provide such great boyfriend experiences to women, women should be paying betas for their services. Instead, what we find is that betas pay bux in order for women to accept boyfriend experiences from them.

jf12
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Re: hunter girls and fisher girls and baseball girls and etc. It’s not just girl video gamers, but also girl race care drivers, girl prison guards, girl comics books, any girl that intrudes on any (? any not?) majority male activities gets a lot more sexual attention than she would otherwise.

Interestingly the opposite effect occurs for boys intruding on female activities.

Kate
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“Lets just say that women’s need for security extends beyond just the financial. Women have a need for emotional, physical and familial security. So while a woman may be independently wealthy and is capable of her own material provisioning, she still needs a man to be a Man.”

Word.

jf12: Betas don’t get paid for anything; that is their curse.

Tarnished
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@jf12

I atually do talk about the difference between “grrl gamers” and gamers who just happen to be women. It’s a constant issue among gaming communities, trying to figure out who is an attention whore who wants everyone to know how “special” they are VS who actually just wants to frickin sit down and play. It’s sad that we have to deal with this, but I think most are good at weeding these females out.

http://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/the-games-we-play-part-2/

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