The Apologists

apologists

Posted this morning, Obsidian at Just Four Guys had an excellent 10 question interview of Professor Michael Kimmel who has been so concerned about the male anger simmering in the manosphere that he was distracted from his professorship of Sociology and Gender Studies and executive directorship for the Center for the Study of Men and Masculinities at Stony Brook University that he was forced by academic passions to write such titles as Guyland and Angry White Men (not to be confused with Stupid White Men).

The open format interviews of semi-mainstream authors are starting to carve out a missing manosphere niche for J4G, so I don’t want to steal any of that thunder with this post, but since “angry manosphereans” was the topic du jour at Aunt Giggles’ echo-chamber (“Oh my stars and garters! Tindr is really a hook up app populated by men and women who just wanna fuck?”) I thought I’d riff a little on a few of his answers and what I think are the esteemed Professors’ most glaring problems.

But the real answer to your question is not “why am I so different from other men?” but rather how am I so similar to other men? I grew up breathing the same air, and drinking the same water as you did. I believe firmly in the ideals of American democracy, and so I feel compelled as a citizen to speak out against inequality and injustice. Supporting gender equality is right, fair, and patriotically American.

He is correct, he’s JUST like the majority of ‘other’ men – suffering from a  lifetime of thorough social feminization conditioning to become the champion of feminine-identification Game. His Beta mindset is easily recognizable, but his Game is still the same ‘like attracts like’ mentality that’s characteristic of a solid insaturation in blank slate equalism. Hugo Schwyzer left a vacuum, Kimmel is just stepping into it. Be more ‘like’ a woman and they’ll appreciate your efforts in supporting and understanding them, and you’ll be rewarded with reciprocal sexual interest.

It is a compassionate look at the lives of young men, and especially the things that those young me are being asked to do – by other guys – to prove their manhood. And the argument of the book is that proving masculinity becomes a sort of relentless test for guys, and that THAT is what we have to pay attention to. The book is a sort of catalog of how guys feel they have to prove it — video games, porn, sports, binge drinking, hooking up, initiation and hazing. All of it. It’s not about how awful guys are because they are doing it. It’s about how awful it is that they often feel they are being forced to do those things they don’t want to do because if they don’t other guys will call them pussies.

This is the hallmark of a feminized Beta mindset – to believe that “guys being guys” is inherently aberrant. It’s something other guys do. I could go into detail about how men giving each other shit is an evolutionary (and useful) vestige of tribalism and how men would use this “challenging” to ensure the strength and survivability of the collective, but this will only grate against his ‘gender-as-social-construct’ belief.

Why do men think they’re so great? Because that’s the kind of men women love.

This discomfort with ‘being a guy’ is the root disposition of many high-functioning Betas, and particularly those seeking to better identify with the feminine in the hopes it will pay off in sexual dividends. These are the guys who never ‘got it’ that shit talking and locker room jabs (the same male space invaded by the feminine) are intended not just to determine masculine fitness, but to foster living, building and measuring up to a better masculine standard that benefits both the individual man and the collective of humanity. Risk taking, physical aggression (constructive and destructive) and physicality in general, ambition, team reliance and individualism are all part of this masculinity. That potential for violence scares the shit out of men like Kimmel, but that potential is also precisely what’s need for survival and success of a species.

Betas like Kimmel who grew up in fear of Alpha aggression instead of embracing and matching it directly, see bullying in every marginalized form of boys being boys, to say nothing of Men being Men, when they reach adulthood and still haven’t figured out how to relate to men and the masculine beyond what the easy answers feminization has provided for them. These are the men who’ll explain their feminine identification Game as being a personality issue, “I’ve always related to / better with women.” For feminized male apologists anything resembling an intrinsic understanding of masculinity is indistinguishable from Hypermasculinity.

Because of this embrace of feminine-primacy, the Professor is probably not the best equipped to educate men on issues of anger. As such, my guess is he cannot discern the difference between aggression born from anger and aggression as a vetting and honing mechanism of the male psychology.

Kimmel, presumes that men don’t want to participate in this vetting, but as always, want’s got nothing to do with it. It’s easy to characterize this vetting in the context of Bro Culture, but the fact of the matter is that it exists in every masculine subdomain from Frat Brothers and the football team to coders, gamers and 4Chan /b/rothers.

What’s “wrong” with the pickup seduction manuals is not so much that they treat women as objects, the means to get laid, notches on belts etc., and not as whole people. That’s pretty silly in the modern era.

Apparently Kimmel’s has yet to discover Tindr in this modern era. Someone ought to link Kimmel and Aunt Giggles to @Tinderfessions on Twitter – don’t say I didn’t warn you. It may be silly, but it’s reliable in the context of reality. If women have to be “warned” about this or that PUA tactic, it stands to reason said tactic will be effective. It also stands to reason the technique was based on a provable, intrinsically valid, female dynamic to be effective.

But what bothers me about these books is that they treat men as pathetic losers, utterly incapable of honest conversation, genuine affection, and authentic emotion. So they male-bash. They treat men as such losers that they have to be inauthentic game players in order to be successful with women. I have a much more sanguine view of men than that. I believe that when men are honest, communicative, and authentic, they will have great relationships.

What if these pathetic losers could become ‘authentic’ Men by learning how women actually relate to them on every level; from sociological to psychological, from evolutionary perspectives to the underlying biology that motivates women’s behaviors not only sexually, but emotionally, pragmatically and sympathetically? Would they still be pathetic losers?

What if these men could be ‘authentic’ in their understanding the nature of women and how women solipsistically and subconsciously institute their own Game socially and psychologically to ensure optimizing hypergamy to their best benefit?

What if these men could “Just Get It” and leverage that understanding not only to improve their own lives, but also the lives of other men, their sons, their brothers, and the lives of the women they involve themselves with? Would they be pathetic losers then?

What if these men’s genuineness in honesty, conversation and emotion were the result of red pill truth and having the blinders removed that a feminized acculturation fitted them with for the better part of a lifetime? The nature of that honesty, conversation and emotion might be something quite different than what your own feminine conditioning would have you envision Professor Kimmel. So are they pathetic losers because their genuineness derives from the red pill, or are they genuine because they buy into what you and a feminine-centric culture tells them they should adopt and internalize in order for women to love them? In other words, what are you selling that’s any different?

I agree, if men could be honest, communicative, and authentic, they will have great relationships, but how a guy comes to being honest with himself after shedding his blue pill programming, how he learns women ‘actually’ communicate, and how he becomes ‘authentic’ after having internalized Game-awareness and red pill truth is a far different prospect than telling men to just be themselves and trust in the alleged rationalness, equalism and zero-sum goodness inherent in ‘most’ women today.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Exfernal
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So what, Rollo? MHC compatibility is not the same as testosterone levels. Or are you implying that masturbation changes one’s MHC “olfactory signature”?

britishguy
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As a quiet young guy trying to find his place, I do relate to what Steve H is saying. Some jock-type guys I know think it’s ‘nerdy’ that I read the odd book, for example. That kinda thing really gets on my nerves. Most guys I know, however, are pretty well-balanced – I don’t get this idea that 99% of guys are blue pill feminised idiots. I’m British so maybe it’s not as bad here.

britishguy
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I need to stop saying the word ‘guys’ so much.

jf12
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@britishguy, do guys, er, folks, use the term “jock” over there like we do?

jf12
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I don’t think it’s just the company I keep, but I can’t recall ever being in a group of males wherein the other guys were all competing to see who could be the most insufferable lout. Generally there is a lot of comradely horseplay, of course, but most of the time there is only one dummy who bothers showing out when there’s no girls around, and even that one dummy comes around quickly while we solve all the world’s problems many times over.

britishguy
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Nah I was gonna say ‘laddish types’ but thought that mightn’t make sense to people from the US etc.

jf12
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It may not be worthwhile to continue to beat this dead horse on this topic thread, but the vast majority of chemicals exuded by humans are odorless not least because they are nonvolatile. Especially in the underarm areas, the ONLY things that really smell are the volatile and semivolatile waste products of microbial decomposition of those chemicals. I’m not even appealing to biochemistry much less psychology: it’s just physics. Of course it makes sense that someone with a different immune system than you will have a different microbial community living on them, if you give the bugs enough time to… Read more »

Steve H
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By the way, my views on holding men accountable for what they *can* control (rather than ultimately concluding ‘we’re powerless victims in this FI-infected wasteland’) are not in any way linked to ‘jealousy’ or misty nostalgia for an idealized past when i was king alpha (in fact my path was the opposite of that). And i say that after discovering one of the greatest and most underrated ‘secrets’ in the PUA world: in a bar/club/whatever, when you connect men with women you know, or you put in the work to meet (e.g. you ‘opened’ them and began a good DHVing… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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DeNihilist
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Rollo, agreed. Meself, I am a plumber, the jabbing happens on the job, in the wholesalers, in the work truck, etc. It is mens’ way of communicating. Leave the blubbery stuff to the wimminz.

jf12
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Re: hormones and scent. 1) “High quality” men’s hormones do not differ significantly from “low quality” men’s hormones. Other things may be causing differences in odor, but it’s not hormones. 2) Female’s hormones DO vary wildly through their cycle and DO cause very detectable changes in odors. These odors are very much more noticeable in the women’s crotch areas than anywhere else (and all the men are saying “Duh.”). FWIW pheromones are compounds that *females* produce to signal fertility. Not males; males are fertility embodied; nobody *wants* a fertile nerd male. . 3) Additionally, fertile women produce very pleasing scents… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Jeez Fred, I couldn’t read to the end of either article. Male privilege ya know.

jf12
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FWIW I bet Martie knows about the scent at the back of the head. I bet she didn’t know about the greasy spot at the base of the spine.

jf12
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Re: stench. I have no doubt that men are stinkier than women, and that the intensity of human odor is correlated with the intensity of stress in mice. I do have grave doubts whether it is advantageous for *male* mice to bother discriminating between men and women. Men’s feet are not that much bigger and/or stompier.

jf12
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Further off topic. I’ve had long, thick body hair since my preteen days. Yes, I was one of those guys with (some!) dark chest hair at age 12, and I still have to shave twice a day most days, to avoid scrubbing my wife’s face raw. And I am uncoincidentally quite smelly. But definitely not in a good way.

jf12
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Forgot to add to previous comment: in the case of the mice, I’m 100% certain that “similar to a woman” was merely “much less overall odor”. That is all.

eon
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Rollo, “I’ve got a Bro Culture post in the works as a result of this conversation, however, I should point out that …” I agree with you, and I am looking forward to your post. My point, which I probably should have made clearer, is that the important distinction is between Bro Culture among those accepted as adequate, and Bro Culture directed at outcasts. For example, “male-exclusive forms of communication, testing, encouragement and shit talking” in the form of “oh look, here comes the little pussy who can only bench 300” is communication, bonding and encouragement. But taunting the “90… Read more »

Nathan
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Rollo, I find the compensatory or complementary immunity idea fascinating and I am of the same opinion that pheromones exist and matter. I am about to read the articles you linked, but before doing so here’s a story: Easter weekend we had friends and thier families over. A young old girl was among the people gathered. Right after church, but right before Easter lunch I went running. Before I showered and changed I was just standing in the living room talking. This girl came right up, she was not more than 1 foot away, and was standing there smelling me… Read more »

jf12
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Color me skeptical, or spritz me skeptical, that good looking guys just naturally smell better. This discussion has the aroma of the halo effect, deriving from the apex fallacy.

Steve H
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Eon – great post and personal anecdote that elucidates the perspective. Agree with your paradigm. Without lending both the ‘respect of cooperation, but also restraint’, there’s an active disrespect present and that’s counterproductive. The absence of these basic ‘respects’ also tilts a male environment towards imbalance and ridicule-worthy pettiness (i.e. whether we actually ‘blame’ Incognito or Martin, it seems everyone agrees that situation made an unusually pitiful joke of locker room culture at a professional level.) Also a good pro tip re: being ‘quiet and civil, but not obsequious’. obviously no man who enters a ‘male space’ bragging obnoxiously or… Read more »

Pellaeon
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@SteveH It took me a bit of contemplating and re-reading Rollo’s post before I could post a response The chief defense – the primary clarion call in striking down Kimmel’s argument – is *rooted* in espousing allegiance to a greater vision, to greater ideals than merely satiating one’s appetites in however destructive a manner one finds necessary. I have to disagree. Kimmel asserts that locker room “smack talk” is unbeneficial, and stems from peer pressure. Rollo’s counters by showing that it has an evolutionary basis, and can be beneficial. His argument does not “espouse allegiance to a greater vision,” though… Read more »

jf12
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Re: male pheromones do not exist.
http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/2014/5/3/1/man-too-tired-to-shower-is
Case closed.

Anytime any effect only exists if you squint, and have to hold your mouth right, and it fades in and out of sight, it doesn’t really exist. Period. Especially something as important as survival of the species.

jf12
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For the record, I have historically been somewhat luckier when *slightly* smelly, e.g. a morning after not showering the night before. And I contend that the slightness proves the lack of effect. I think it’s probably more important to smell “different” than “smelly”.

jf12
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Well, one more. Female goats did not readily distinguish between extremely high, high, medium, or low testosterone levels in male goats. Only extremely low testosterone in the male made a difference to females.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X11001802

Softek
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Regardless of pheromones, I think the most significant effect of (excessive) masturbation is behavioral. I’m going to go on a little aside here just because this was a big event in my life and I owe a lot to this community, so I want to share it. I hadn’t gone on porn in about a month, and I hadn’t masturbated in a couple weeks, and the other night I gamed a girl for the first time in my life. She showed interest in me, which I’d normally ignore. I remembered to focus on her behavior instead of her words and… Read more »

Steve H
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Hey Softek – awesome! Applauding your success out loud over here. Sounds like a great night all around, and a key personal breakthrough. Big moment right there. Excellent.

Softek
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@ Steve H

Thanks, I really appreciate it. I don’t want to let it get to my head and my main focus is making a habit out of this and living the way I really want to, but a little celebration is okay smile

jf12
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@Softek, yes behavioral. re: “I hadn’t masturbated in a couple weeks, and the other night I gamed a girl for the first time in my life.”
Although I don’t read Roosh, he was very recently as quoted as nowadays waiting ten days to build up enough Thirst to bother picking up women.

New Yorker
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Softek, it is great to hear about your breakthrough and my utmost congratulations to you for climbing over the hurdle of accepting yourself. Very happy to hear your news and it will only get better from here.

Softek
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@jf12 That sounds about right. I also realized after that experience that my compulsive masturbation has been a result of anxiety because of isolation and a complete lack of options. If I really felt confident that I could go out and get a girl to have sex with whenever I wanted to, I would probably end up craving it a lot less. I actually felt satisfied and calm after last night. @ New Yorker Thanks, I appreciate it! I never had any friends — or anyone at all — in my life who respected my desire to have sex and… Read more »

gregg
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Red pill/game/manhood…you name it, should be the battle for knowledge and freedom. But knowledge has to be applied. If we have honest knowledge about women and hyperagmy then…how could we enter into senseless slavery ..aka..marriage? You would not enter into serious and dangerous business with inherently disloyal (hypergamy) creature, would you??? Yet we have many married men, endlessy writing about this mythical “game”, knowledge, feminine imperative, or trying to discuss this topic with women. So – how they apply this knowledge in their own life? Even many game “gurus” like mystery, de angelo, tyler durden, etc. end with bastards from,… Read more »

jf12
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gregg makes a number of on-topic points. “Married men know better that they are able to cohabite with their women more or less peacefully, only as long as they are doing precisely what she wants.” harking back to “Why am I so similar to other men?”

jf12
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@Softek, you may still wrongly feel the first one is a fluke, or wrongly that you have to repeat your procedure for it to work. After the third or fourth success, you may notice that nothing else matters to pickup sucess except you good-humoredly pushing to make it sexual (i.e. “intimate”) quickly.

Steve H
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gregg – salient points. i for one fully acknowledge that men are the true romantics – that i am in fact a true romantic – no matter how feminine that may sound. and i don’t apologize for my romanticism. in the rush to be crowned king alpha, logically we would deny and deflect the parts of our own inherent nature which prevailing social mores would deem expressly not-alpha. perhaps this is why the ‘sigma’ archetype has always appealed far more to me; although admittedly, this too could well be in deference to the Cathedral definitions of masculinity that, at my… Read more »

jf12
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Re: applied knowledge, from Badger. “Then consider going out with her and chatting with other women and not hiding the fact that other girls are into you”. This is what works.

Nathan
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“For all their chatter about self-esteem, these women are possessed of a vapid and amorphous insecurity that motivates a complete avoidance of intimacy and emotional contact for the purpose of incubating their own emotional immaturity. The dude can’t care, because if the dude cares, then they might feel obligated to care as well, and they can’t have that.”

Is this a true statement?

Steve H
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Nathan – in my experience that statement is utterly true of women without fathers (unless he died after some period of being a good father) and women with absent/abusive fathers. It’s uniformly true, to a woman (maybe two). Excellent piece – thanks to Rollo for the link.

Tilikum
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steve H is, I fear, deep in the Madonna/Whore rabbit-hole and desperately needs his life to be about something bigger while assuaging his ego that his momma and sisters were somehow above the fracas.

they weren’t dude.

i think you need to look at intersexual relationships more like husbandry. get down closer to the ground where the bugs and slithery things live and pull the down the pedestal you seem to be putting women and then because you so identify with the FI,yourself.

you’re a caricature to most of us here but i truly hope you can learn, for you.

Steve H
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Ah yes, Tilikum. Here come the wildly speculative (falsely) emasculating canards of pure self-loathing projection. Here’s one problem with that: it’s distinctly feminine to believe in your magical intuitive power to psychically divine data about a complete stranger. I don’t even have sisters.

What threatens men who hurl these concocted-out-of-thin-air invectives at me? I can only suppose it is my ideological consistency, but that is merely a guess. It is a guess because I don’t know, and I don’t attribute any feminine psychic divination capabilities unto myself.

Thanks for the half-well-wish at the end though. I think.

gregg
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@ rollo

There are many articles or literature about women, but honestly, I think that most of them is just total crap.

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Power-Manual-Male-Female-Relations-ebook/dp/B00HOL2L50

Now, THIS is the book that is closer to truth then anything I´ve seen in years. Only for advanced and analytical readers. Mad genius wrote it. Might be of use to you smile

eon
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Rollo,

Have you seen this?

http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.erica.biz%2F2014%2Fdear-investors%2F&date=2014-05-06

This woman belongs in the Hamster Hall of Fame!

Vox has an article about her (alphagameplan[]blogspot[]com/2014/05/bullet-proof-self-regard.html).

sfry7pd
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“They treat men as such losers that they have to be inauthentic game players in order to be successful with women” The aforementioned quote beautifully exposes not only the author’s self-loathing, but his inauthentic misdirected attempt at ‘helping’ men become ‘better’. In one sentence he manages to : – Imply that men who seek alternative strategies (often after experiencing much pain, resentment and loss concerning life, women and love) are losers. – People who do play the game, and play it successfully are in actuality, ‘inauthentic’. Not only does he ignore the validity of such strategies, he deems it necessary… Read more »

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[…] I was writing The Apologists I briefly delved into the topic of Bro Culture. It seems that a constantly self-reinventing […]

M Simon
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Falling in love is inherently dangerous for a woman. If she does fall in love she will do ANYTHING for her man. See the Las Vegas shooter and his girlfriend. Or hookers and pimps.

M Simon
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“when men are dominant, honest, communicative, and authentic, they will have great relationships”.

FIFY.

water cannon boy
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While looking for info on recharging my car’s ac, I came across this video of a girl pole dancing on a tv show Ukraine’s Got Talent.
This guy’s comment and the reaction to it made me think of this post.

water cannon boy
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Okay, I thought it would just show as a link. But go to what mistervanderveer says and the responses to it.

M Simon
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water cannon boy
July 12th, 2014 at 4:21 am

Had the woman been costumed differently and been in a gymnastics competition….

I was impressed by her performance. What did I get out of the comments? “Slut” = out of my league. Put down required to explain her lack of interest in me.

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[…] The Apologists […]

PivotPersona (@thepivotpersona)
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Researched Men’s Studies on Google. In 2017, Michael Kimmel is launching a Master’s Degree in Masculine Studies’ at Stonybrook. “We want to make the study of masculinity specific within the frameworks that have already been worked out by gender studies,” he says. http://www.techinsider.io/stony-brook-is-launching-a-masculinities-studies-program-2015-8 As expected, it’s Feminine Imperative goods rebranded as Masculine Studies to market male prospective students. Curious to see if there will be a demand for prospective students to pay for the academia female definition of 21st century masculinity. A complementarity teaching point of view can only come to academic spotlight if the US came out of a… Read more »

kfg
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“Will Kimmel’s Masculine Studies course catalog label Open Cuckoldry a requirement or elective?”

Either way, I’m sure it will be a practicum.

ollieoxenfree1
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Masculinity = a man going off to war. Killing a couple dozen of the enemy, then getting his legs blown off by a landmine. Returns home to blighty to recuperate before going off to run a marathon.

Physically imposing bully uses wimp to make himself feel better about his dyslexia. Wimp has enough, buys gun and ends the bully.
Is the wimp more masculine now?
Or is it a case of once a wimp always a wimp?

ollieoxenfree1
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@Jeremy

Two post in and you’re the thread winner.

Congrats.

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