The Apologists

apologists

Posted this morning, Obsidian at Just Four Guys had an excellent 10 question interview of Professor Michael Kimmel who has been so concerned about the male anger simmering in the manosphere that he was distracted from his professorship of Sociology and Gender Studies and executive directorship for the Center for the Study of Men and Masculinities at Stony Brook University that he was forced by academic passions to write such titles as Guyland and Angry White Men (not to be confused with Stupid White Men).

The open format interviews of semi-mainstream authors are starting to carve out a missing manosphere niche for J4G, so I don’t want to steal any of that thunder with this post, but since “angry manosphereans” was the topic du jour at Aunt Giggles’ echo-chamber (“Oh my stars and garters! Tindr is really a hook up app populated by men and women who just wanna fuck?”) I thought I’d riff a little on a few of his answers and what I think are the esteemed Professors’ most glaring problems.

But the real answer to your question is not “why am I so different from other men?” but rather how am I so similar to other men? I grew up breathing the same air, and drinking the same water as you did. I believe firmly in the ideals of American democracy, and so I feel compelled as a citizen to speak out against inequality and injustice. Supporting gender equality is right, fair, and patriotically American.

He is correct, he’s JUST like the majority of ‘other’ men – suffering from a  lifetime of thorough social feminization conditioning to become the champion of feminine-identification Game. His Beta mindset is easily recognizable, but his Game is still the same ‘like attracts like’ mentality that’s characteristic of a solid insaturation in blank slate equalism. Hugo Schwyzer left a vacuum, Kimmel is just stepping into it. Be more ‘like’ a woman and they’ll appreciate your efforts in supporting and understanding them, and you’ll be rewarded with reciprocal sexual interest.

It is a compassionate look at the lives of young men, and especially the things that those young me are being asked to do – by other guys – to prove their manhood. And the argument of the book is that proving masculinity becomes a sort of relentless test for guys, and that THAT is what we have to pay attention to. The book is a sort of catalog of how guys feel they have to prove it — video games, porn, sports, binge drinking, hooking up, initiation and hazing. All of it. It’s not about how awful guys are because they are doing it. It’s about how awful it is that they often feel they are being forced to do those things they don’t want to do because if they don’t other guys will call them pussies.

This is the hallmark of a feminized Beta mindset – to believe that “guys being guys” is inherently aberrant. It’s something other guys do. I could go into detail about how men giving each other shit is an evolutionary (and useful) vestige of tribalism and how men would use this “challenging” to ensure the strength and survivability of the collective, but this will only grate against his ‘gender-as-social-construct’ belief.

Why do men think they’re so great? Because that’s the kind of men women love.

This discomfort with ‘being a guy’ is the root disposition of many high-functioning Betas, and particularly those seeking to better identify with the feminine in the hopes it will pay off in sexual dividends. These are the guys who never ‘got it’ that shit talking and locker room jabs (the same male space invaded by the feminine) are intended not just to determine masculine fitness, but to foster living, building and measuring up to a better masculine standard that benefits both the individual man and the collective of humanity. Risk taking, physical aggression (constructive and destructive) and physicality in general, ambition, team reliance and individualism are all part of this masculinity. That potential for violence scares the shit out of men like Kimmel, but that potential is also precisely what’s need for survival and success of a species.

Betas like Kimmel who grew up in fear of Alpha aggression instead of embracing and matching it directly, see bullying in every marginalized form of boys being boys, to say nothing of Men being Men, when they reach adulthood and still haven’t figured out how to relate to men and the masculine beyond what the easy answers feminization has provided for them. These are the men who’ll explain their feminine identification Game as being a personality issue, “I’ve always related to / better with women.” For feminized male apologists anything resembling an intrinsic understanding of masculinity is indistinguishable from Hypermasculinity.

Because of this embrace of feminine-primacy, the Professor is probably not the best equipped to educate men on issues of anger. As such, my guess is he cannot discern the difference between aggression born from anger and aggression as a vetting and honing mechanism of the male psychology.

Kimmel, presumes that men don’t want to participate in this vetting, but as always, want’s got nothing to do with it. It’s easy to characterize this vetting in the context of Bro Culture, but the fact of the matter is that it exists in every masculine subdomain from Frat Brothers and the football team to coders, gamers and 4Chan /b/rothers.

What’s “wrong” with the pickup seduction manuals is not so much that they treat women as objects, the means to get laid, notches on belts etc., and not as whole people. That’s pretty silly in the modern era.

Apparently Kimmel’s has yet to discover Tindr in this modern era. Someone ought to link Kimmel and Aunt Giggles to @Tinderfessions on Twitter – don’t say I didn’t warn you. It may be silly, but it’s reliable in the context of reality. If women have to be “warned” about this or that PUA tactic, it stands to reason said tactic will be effective. It also stands to reason the technique was based on a provable, intrinsically valid, female dynamic to be effective.

But what bothers me about these books is that they treat men as pathetic losers, utterly incapable of honest conversation, genuine affection, and authentic emotion. So they male-bash. They treat men as such losers that they have to be inauthentic game players in order to be successful with women. I have a much more sanguine view of men than that. I believe that when men are honest, communicative, and authentic, they will have great relationships.

What if these pathetic losers could become ‘authentic’ Men by learning how women actually relate to them on every level; from sociological to psychological, from evolutionary perspectives to the underlying biology that motivates women’s behaviors not only sexually, but emotionally, pragmatically and sympathetically? Would they still be pathetic losers?

What if these men could be ‘authentic’ in their understanding the nature of women and how women solipsistically and subconsciously institute their own Game socially and psychologically to ensure optimizing hypergamy to their best benefit?

What if these men could “Just Get It” and leverage that understanding not only to improve their own lives, but also the lives of other men, their sons, their brothers, and the lives of the women they involve themselves with? Would they be pathetic losers then?

What if these men’s genuineness in honesty, conversation and emotion were the result of red pill truth and having the blinders removed that a feminized acculturation fitted them with for the better part of a lifetime? The nature of that honesty, conversation and emotion might be something quite different than what your own feminine conditioning would have you envision Professor Kimmel. So are they pathetic losers because their genuineness derives from the red pill, or are they genuine because they buy into what you and a feminine-centric culture tells them they should adopt and internalize in order for women to love them? In other words, what are you selling that’s any different?

I agree, if men could be honest, communicative, and authentic, they will have great relationships, but how a guy comes to being honest with himself after shedding his blue pill programming, how he learns women ‘actually’ communicate, and how he becomes ‘authentic’ after having internalized Game-awareness and red pill truth is a far different prospect than telling men to just be themselves and trust in the alleged rationalness, equalism and zero-sum goodness inherent in ‘most’ women today.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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ho
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ho
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“That potential for violence scares the shit out of men like Kimmel”

This is the crux of this situation.

( @ Y @ )
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Good read Rollo. This muppet Kimmel is lost, I don’t think he’ll ever “get it”. Looks like he’s balls deep invested in PC fembot group think. The scary part is someone actually pays this clown a wage? Sociology and gender studies ..HA ! Then to add insult to injury some poor bastard on Dad’s dime has to sit and listen to him “gender is a social construct” for hours on end.

Jeremy
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I believe I have in the past said the exact same things that Rollo quoted Kimmel as saying, and I meant it at the time. Acknowledging self-deception is the hardest thing humans ever do. It was something I was forced to do, having been raised in, and come out of a christian cult. Having gone through this many times now, in various stages of learning how I was lied to, I can tell you that those still wearing the blinders are truly unreachable. They must help themselves. Their minds have been equipped with the armor of all manner of justifiable… Read more »

LiveFearless
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“What if these pathetic losers could become ‘authentic’ Men by learning how women actually relate to them on every level; from sociological to psychological, from evolutionary perspectives to the underlying biology that motivates women’s behaviors not only sexually, but emotionally, pragmatically and sympathetically? Would they still be pathetic losers?”~Rollo Tomassi Ahhh… but a man involved in self improvement, in today’s world, is considered to be ‘selfish’ and inauthentic. It doesn’t matter if he is learning what improves the lives of men, women and children… if a man spends money, time or other resources to gain understanding of truth, no matter… Read more »

LiveFearless
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@Rollo writes, “In other words, what are you selling that’s any different?” It’s like ‘Covert Selfishness’ vs ‘Overt Selfishness’ “Average people think selfishness is a vice. Rich people think selfishness is a virtue. Everyone is selfish, but there are two types of selfishness: overt selfishness and covert selfishness. You want to be OVERTLY selfish. Covert selfishness is for chicken shits. When you come right out and say “I want it my way and I’ll have it my way” you will get what you want. When you play the covertly selfish guy, also known as nice guy syndrome, you are only… Read more »

BC
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“An idea starts to be interesting when you get scared of taking it to its logical conclusion.”
-Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Apologists like Kimmel believe the natural existence of the rabbit hole to be a Bad Thing and try to divert or shame men from seeing how deep it goes.

Denialists like Giggles insist that there is no hole.
(Yeah, lady, in your case…)

LordSuch
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What I find scary is the 100% belief that ‘men’ like Kimmel et al have in their mindset of what females desire. They then guilt and shame (because betas can be) other blue pill sheep into further believing this feminisation, masculinity is further erroded and the cycle worsens.
Wake up, take the red pill, and you’ll see life in a whole different context!

www.vinaywcmd.com
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As a fellow blog writer on the truth of sexual market dynamics and female emotional psychology, I naturally wouldn’t waste more than a few seconds of my time reading mainstream “advice” from a beta like Kimmel. Nevertheless, whether we like it or not, he is preaching to the vast majority of the male population. With this in mind, and with 99% of women – ugly, average, cute or hot – also distributing information to men with regards to acting in a way that inflates their ego but not their ultimate and sexual happiness, it is little wonder I see very… Read more »

Chokmah
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These are the guys who never ‘got it’ that shit talking and locker room jabs (the same male space invaded by the feminine) are intended not just to determine masculine fitness, but to foster living, building and measuring up to a better masculine standard that benefits both the individual man and the collective of humanity. For Kimmel’s information, this is my romantic view of how to deal with this societal dilemma. I agree, if men could be honest, communicative, and authentic, they will have great relationships, but how a guy comes to being honest with himself after shedding his blue… Read more »

BuenaVista
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Kimmel’s bromides and crocodile tears for bro’-coding inauthentic men, trapped in their obsolete and cruel understanding of masculinity, are just pretextual. They exist to justify coercive rules and laws (that directly benefit women while punishing men, boys and the children of divorce), imposed by the State and such institutions as SUNY. When someone expresses great concern and compassion — while pointing a gun or slapping scarlet letters on dissident chests — we see an odd form of compassion indeed. Kimmel’s compassion, therefore, exists to justify direct discrimination and punishment. Once men are caricatured as game-playing thugs and fools, a male… Read more »

Just Saying
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“seduction manuals is not so much that they treat women as objects” Men who are adept at getting women in bed are treating them the way that THEY want to be treated – without all of the BS about what they “say” they want – which is pure unmitigated horse-sh*t. And since women treat men as objects – why should they be treated any other way? We all perceive others as “objects” to a certain extent since we perceive them as “other” – to use, or not to achieve our specific objectives. So yes, I use women just like I… Read more »

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I discovered and learned game 4 years ago and even though I’ve made strides and banged 30 girls and had hot girlfriends…..there are times when i wonder if the path of least resistance would help to avoid the shit-tests and the bitchy paranoid girl-friends who after fucking them become super nuts. Then i realize this is the “burden” of being a man rather than a wuss who is content in his sexless relationships and never gets a chance to “lead” a woman for fear of losing her. This is the inner struggle that i’m dealing with. When I neg a… Read more »

jf12
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Hooah!

Sisyphean
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I understand exactly where guys like this are coming from. It’s why I wrote this post: The Mangina Monologues An excerpt: “I’ll never be a great shot or be able to hit anyone with a snowball at greater than arms length and my math skills are mediocre at best but that doesn’t mean manliness isn’t for me or men like me.” The thing to remember is that for the feminized male emotional anecdotes are the primary way to communicate effectively, statistics and facts will only make them shutdown and turn off. You have to tell them a story.

Nathan
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“What if these pathetic losers could become ‘authentic’ Men by learning how women actually relate to them on every level; from sociological to psychological, from evolutionary perspectives to the underlying biology that motivates women’s behaviors not only sexually, but emotionally, pragmatically and sympathetically? Would they still be pathetic losers?What if these men could be ‘authentic’ in their understanding the nature of women and how women solipsistically and subconsciously institute their own Game socially and psychologically to ensure optimizing hypergamy to their best benefit?What if these men could “Just Get It” and leverage that understanding not only to improve their own… Read more »

Nathan
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I’m so tired of hearing women on the radio bitch about being objects. The more things fall apart the more I see the wisdom in NOT giving women suffrage.

When did our fathers forget?

Is this related to the loss of religion?

LucasBly
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I can’t decide if this post would fit better at the beginning of, or the end of, Preventive Medicine.

Maybe both.

“What if these men could “Just Get It” and leverage that understanding not only to improve their own lives, but also the lives of other men, their sons, their brothers, and the lives of the women they involve themselves with? Would they be pathetic losers then?”

What if indeed. Preach on, Doctor Tomassi.

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@Sisyphean I understand exactly where guys like this are coming from. It’s why I wrote this post: The Mangina Monologues An excerpt: “I’ll never be a great shot or be able to hit anyone with a snowball at greater than arms length and my math skills are mediocre at best but that doesn’t mean manliness isn’t for me or men like me.” The thing to remember is that for the feminized male emotional anecdotes are the primary way to communicate effectively, statistics and facts will only make them shutdown and turn off. You have to tell them a story. Fantastic… Read more »

jf12
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@GhostOfJefferson
interesting analogy. Maybe it’s got more legs like this: Men are like nails and get where they need to go best when treated straight and forcefully. In short men respond well to hammering with a hammer. In contrast, women are like screws, and you can complete that aphorism with the screwdriver.

As you say, screws can be driven into wood with a hammer, albeit painfully and damaging to the wood and to the screw. In contrast, you can’t screw a nail into wood. At best, you just make dinky noises while damaging the screwdriver.

BuenaVista
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I’ve just been banned from HUS.

TarzanWannaBe
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The “What if…” is what I translate/teach my 10 year old son about the world he is growing up in. He’s pretty astute at identifying “*those* kind of girls” as well as the men/boys that appease them. A succinct and structured book directed toward boys from Rollo someday would be golden!

jf12
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@Rollo, re: tool use. Yes, a sexually desirous woman is seen by a man as needing his tool. Women, in general, are more attractive when they seem to need a man.

zodak
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as a former beta, these blue bill guys repeating this nonsense fill me with such rage. i look back at how i embodied all their bad advice & how it was just disastrous.

Nate
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” As such, my guess is he cannot discern the difference between aggression born from anger and aggression as a vetting and honing mechanism of the male psychology” This is one of the biggest divides between naturals and betas that, without acknowledgement, is a huge obstacle for men trying to improve themselves. Talking shit, fucking with each other, pulling pranks, calling each other fags and pussies and all that, it’s good fun and builds comraderie, sharpens the wit, and builds some backbone. Guys who can’t handle it or suck at it always seem to be missing something. That fun aggression… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
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@zodak

Don’t feel rage towards them, they know not what they do and are acting logically within the framework of their lifetime programming. I feel pity for them, but not anger, they simply do not know better. So…educate them.

caprizchka
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Love this and find it to be excellent advice for men geared to the way men think, how to combat prevailing attitudes that are not in men’s interest nor in the interest of women who, mostly, don’t know what will make them happy anyway (hint: it’s not hypergamy).

Jeremy
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Now I know why men invented hammers.

They needed a useful object that didn’t nag them.

Mr. Roach
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I just want Kimmel to be straight about his own success or lack thereof with women before he starts telling us “how it works.” And the same for all the “man up” pastors and everyone else. And I this as someone who actually values authentic relationships, friendships, and connection with women. But I have learned, mostly the hard way, that all the PC/Oprah/Feminist claptrap is a bullshit enormous shit detection scheme where you don’t even get a consolation prize.

BlackPoisonSoul
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But what bothers me about these books is that they treat men as pathetic losers, utterly incapable of honest conversation, genuine affection, and authentic emotion.

He hasn’t twigged that girls aren’t interested in honest conversation, genuine affection, and authentic emotion. They prefer innuendo, sly subtleties, plausible deniability, and other tingle-inducing things.

Plus they prefer that sort of thing with their “girlfriends”. Not those hot studs that they just have to fuck within 15 minutes of meeting.

Water Cannon Boy
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This may be WAY off topic at the moment, but I was thinking that it may become increasingly relevant as the Donald Sterling case plays out. I think the circumstances of that will eventually be co-opted in some way to fit into supporting the usual chic logic argument I hear of freedom of expression as long as I agree with what you’re saying. I have no sympathy for Sterling, however I see this as the thought police. Me, if I played for the Clippers I’d be gone as soon as my contract was up. But I’d still recognize the fact… Read more »

Chokmah
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But I have learned, mostly the hard way, that all the PC/Oprah/Feminist claptrap is a bullshit enormous shit detection scheme where you don’t even get a consolation prize… What I find quite interesting is the capacity of women to completely ignore and deny that they are entitled themselves (they perceive this is a “right”, or Rollo’s ‘Just Get It’, I think), and also to deny that any male/boys shaming have ever existed and the consequences on men’s behavior (again the ‘Just Get It). And Rollo would rightly remind me that trying to talk with them about this is trying to… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Fuck! this guy would hate being on the annual fishing trip. That’s all we do is take the piss outta each other! Also no broads allowed. Been like this for close to 35 years now.

Kr Eden
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Rollo, since you have solid understanding of psychology, maybe you could explain this logic in terms of game theory. It might be a little too mathematical for some, but it would help those that seek rational explanation for feelings and behavior.

Chokmah
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There is only Game and the degree to which you accept it and are comfortable in using it in the context that YOU define. […] Just as Alpha is not inherently nobel or deplorable, Game is neither inherently good nor evil – the Devil is in the details and whomever’s defined context in which you use it. […] Power is neither good nor evil, it simply is, and your capacity to use power, your comfort in using it, doesn’t invalidate the principles of power. Likewise, your discomfort or inability to accept those principles does not excuse you from the consequence… Read more »

BuenaVista
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@water cannon: the Sterling fiasco breaks new ground in relationship betrayal and situational loyalty. Kareem correctly noted that the conversation was clearly manipulated by the gold digger to elicit the man’s worst impulses. While Sterling is a fool for trusting this sidepiece (seriously, did he think he could “just be himself”?) and a pretty disgusting one at that, this is essentially a false-rape, regret sex scenario. The woman who published Sterling’s comments had no problem hanging out with a fat geriatric racist billionaire — until she did. Going forward any man of prominence now will be patting down his office… Read more »

titanic
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@Chokmah
Check out Venkat Rao’s Gervais Principle for a completely no-rose-coloured glasses look at corporate life.

BuenaVista
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Chokmah, as a recent student of red pill, I would have to agree that an inner loneliness, upon discovering that men only have value to their women and children insofar as we offer *utility*, initially dominated my coming-awake experiences. Lately though (for me) this stark truth provides comfort, as it reflects reality better than the pretty lies we were taught, and are still told to practice, by most women. One reaction to accepting the truth is discovering freedom: the freedom to invest my utility according to my own priorities, the freedom to stop asking “Why?” when the contradictions and inhumanity… Read more »

jf12
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@BV adult night terrors supposedly are characteristic of two things, one being child abuse.

There is a streak of childhood night terrors that runs in my family. My daughter had them, I had them, my father had them, my father’s father had them, and my father’s father’s mother had them, all bad enough for family to remember and talk about for generations.

BuenaVista
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Yeah, though I’ve probably been forthcoming enough for one day.

What’s the other one, incidentally?

Nathan
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@titanic,

I just read the piece on corporate culture you suggested.
This line jumps out: “creating a meta-culture of Darwinism in the economy…”

Say what one will about Carl Jung, I do admire Jung for saying that Christianity is the counterbalance to the darwinian sociopathology.

jf12
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@BV, 2nd is a particular pattern of organic brain damage. I think it’s most often caused by an acute overdose of toxic chemicals, but probably also could be caused by infection or mechanical trauma.

Retrenched
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At its heart, the feminized beta mindset is that men should put the interests and well-being of women ahead of their own. Women’s desires, ambitions, needs and goals should ALWAYS come first, for both men and women. Both sexes must work together to make sure that women get everything they want and need, first and foremost. Women getting whatever it is they think they want or need at the time must take precedence over everything else. And any man who pursues his own interests, well-being, goals, hopes and desires instead of those of women will be labeled sexist, misogynist, a… Read more »

Steve H
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There is WAY too much credit, all over this thread, passively bequeathed to the ‘bro-coders’, the gamers, the ‘american bro’ caricature. That’s the thing – a great many men have indeed become caricatures. While we’re tearing down the lies of the cathedral and the societally-saturated feminine imperative, and while we’re building up men who emerge, broken and bloodied, from blue-pill hell looking for answers, I don’t fuckin’ understand this rush to lionize dude-bro idiocy here. Yes, men calling each other out on their bullshit is a good thing. ‘Stop being such a fuckin’ pussy’, ‘grow up’, ‘ah, fuck you, cut… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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Don’t cry for Donald Sterling, Argentina. There’s no big privacy issue there because he talked shit next to his chickie-pie’s cell-phone HD recorder. There’s big money, yes. And for big money people will do lots of bad things. To protect themselves from his Bad Things. Sterling’s no Sovereign Citizen or Master of the Universe. You know his type well: the Super-Beta with Super-Beta Bucks who thinks he is loved for throwing around pocket change, which the ex-cheerleader escorts hoover up whilst hoovering him (then vomiting in the loo). He is the kind of guy who, flying in first class, looks… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Steve H,

There is WAY too much credit, all over this thread, passively bequeathed to the ‘bro-coders’, the gamers, the ‘american bro’ caricature….

I didn’t read the entire thread… what are you talking about?

Fred Flange, S.J.
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Oh yes I read the Vice piece. Clive Martin is pretty sharp, his Vice video series on Brit club culture, Big Night Out, is good for some larfs. In general I like Vice (their piece on Japanese grass-eaters is fanfuckingtastic). They can be a bit blue-pill at times but when they’re on they are ON.

Steve H
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Jeremy – I’ll contain my criticism to RT’s post but this criticism applies to scattered comments as well: “men giving each other shit is an evolutionary (and useful) vestige of tribalism and how men would use this “challenging” to ensure the strength and survivability of the collective” This is utterly unnecessary today. There is no need to prop up the collective with any semblance of tribal unity or struggle, let alone a pragmatic application of intra-male shit-talking to this end. “shit talking and locker room jabs (the same male space invaded by the feminine) are intended not just to determine… Read more »

Pellaeon
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@SteveH I just read the Vice article. It strikes me as just another hackneyed attempt to beta game (“Im not like those OTHER douchebags…ladies, you should like me”) and shame men who are successfully getting sex. While I can sympathize with an aversion to frat culture, I think any attempts to shame men away from it will utterly fail while it is being rewarded with access to pussy. If you want to campaign against “doucheification”, you’ll have to provide incentives for men to care. On a tangential note (comments from the Vice article led me here), it appears that Know… Read more »

New Yorker
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The locker room culture is most definitely a necessary, evolutionary construct. It may not be fun for those on the lower end of the totem pole, but it is the most self-actualizing and determined who rule the locker room and they are the ones whom the team will follow into battle. Most of the Dolphins sided with Incognito for a reason. What we should do is raise our boys to thrive in the locker room, not claim that it is somehow outdated.

jf12
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@Pellaeon, I certainly would be surprised to see organized Douche Walks around the country, but I’m sure the feminine imperative insists “these particular (“risible and juvenile”) subcultures” are all around us. Lock up your beer fridges, ladies!

Chokmah
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@BuenaVista: Lately though (for me) this stark truth provides comfort, as it reflects reality better than the pretty lies we were taught, and are still told to practice, by most women. One reaction to accepting the truth is discovering freedom: the freedom to invest my utility according to my own priorities, the freedom to stop asking “Why?” when the contradictions and inhumanity of the pretty lies are laid bare, and the freedom to educate my sons so that they perhaps don’t spend a few decades wandering in dark alleys getting periodically mugged. In this respect I do see the sexual… Read more »

BuenaVista
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@Steve H., I have no idea why you even worry about this crap. Some keyboard jocks do some evo-psych lite, but seriously, is this a solution in search of a problem? I spent a lot of time in locker rooms, in college and after, and none of my buds would be confused for 5 seconds in regard to Incognito. He’s useful and entertaining, until he’s not. When he’s 45 no one is going to return his calls. However, they wouldn’t turn on him, either. Guys like that just exist. And they *should be allowed* to exist. So. BFD, he’s an… Read more »

Senior Beta
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When I saw your several comments on the J4G interview with this turd I thought it would lead to something. Like Hancock said: Good job. As an old Navy guy I thought getting rid of the draft was good for the military and the country. We got a higher caliber of motivated guys and overall the results were good. Now I am not so sure. That assholes like this missed the most common male experience (at least in the old days) of eating shit in the Army (or Navy) is sad. No wonder he tries to play nice with the… Read more »

Mark Minter
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I would describe Kimmel as being an “intellectual” of the ilk that thinks there is this duality between the body and the “soul”. Yet instead of it manifesting itself via religion, he believes as most “intellectuals” that the autonomy of the human soul manifests itself in the autonomy of the culture. Intellectual life in the Anglophone world is now increasingly divided between the mindset embodied by Kimmel and his fellow sociologists and the biocultural perspective exemplified in works by evolutionary biologists, social scientists, and literary scholars.” And few people have, as yet, bridged the gap between this science and the… Read more »

Grand Designs
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Grand Designs
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Great post Rollo!

Retrenched
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Retrenched
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It is a law of nature that the male will adapt to become whatever the female chooses to mate with. Well, western females are choosing to mate with ‘douchebag’ types in great numbers, so it’s not at all surprising to see young men in the west trying to emulate ‘douchebag’ behavior. As long as DBs get laid more often and with hotter girls than non-DBs, you can forget about young men swearing off the DB culture and lifestyle. If they have to choose between the respect of the SteveH types on the one hand, and getting laid like tile on… Read more »

Retrenched
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But, it goes to show you just how pervasive the feminine imperative is in our society, when we obsess more over stupid college boys getting drunk and being obnoxious than college girls killing their unborn babies by the thousands every day…

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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“I highly recommend reading that VICE article, even if you’re in your 40s/50s/60s … “ Well Steve H, I am, and I did, a while back, in another place. And I’m sorry to say it’s specious crap, in that it is a metrosexual confection, excreted for the delectation of persons unknown who don’t have any first-hand experience of Britain. A strange case, where I controversially find myself in agreement with a real live Englishman. I’m surprised that it does actually resonate with foreigners, rather than its insular audience. Frankly he lost me a couple of lines in, at the bit… Read more »

Steve H
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Steve H
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The locker room *can* be great. It’s only as good as its leaders, but also only as good as it’s lesser men. Where I’m from, we’ve got Brady and Belichick leading, while Belichick purges lesser men. Incognito would never be allowed to wear the uniform here. Aaron Hernandez fooled everyone, but that’s the outlier. But Brady and Belichick are superior men, most locker rooms don’t have presences like that. For another tangential angle, I invoke RT’s personal revelations. He doesn’t cheat on his wife. How many locker rooms have a simple majority of guys who don’t cheat on their WAGs?… Read more »

Steve H
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Tam the Bam – yes I did see that. However I hadn’t seen this comment til just now as you linked near it – https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/the-great-douchebag-mystery/#comment-118302 – in which ‘Boxer’ hits the nail on the head. Where Dalrock is misguided is that he believes that women ‘crave’ douchebags. This is a flawed, cursory cause-effect conflation. Women crave men who aren’t boring, who aren’t afraid of offending sensibilities, who aren’t afraid of judgement. And when a man becomes truly liberated from insignificant fears of societal (because he has ‘lost everything’), he is free to be that charming, charismatic, reckless, go-for-broke cad and… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Just watched Gran Torino last night. Scenes in this movie show exactly what our host is saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXD8yOxIPB0&feature=player_detailpage

Great flick

jf12
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jf12
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Steve H “You only demonstrate character and integrity when you *could* cheat, but you choose not to.” apex fallacy. I’m wondering where Steve H’s gaze rests when he’s in a locker room.

Steve H
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Steve H
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Your lazy, ‘shaming’ ad-hom suggests I’ve touched a nerve.

Fred Flange, S.J.
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Fred Flange, S.J.
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@ Tam and @ Steve H – a couple notes of catution again. I took the Vice piece as a satire more than accurate social commentary. Clive Martin is a snarkster so I filtered accordingly. No obviously I did not think all UK men acted like that, any more than all USA men act like the Jersey Shore guys (who wear a similar shade of orange and toned pecs). They are trying to be seen, and are getting on camera, hey ma lookit me, so having a bit of fun with them goes with the territory. My opinion on Incognito… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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Fred Flange, S.J.
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Ahem – can’t spell caution it seems.
And I will second our host – I think Steve H’s questions are entirely appropriate, looking for the nuance, not conceding the point that “masculinity” is to be synonymous only with “douchebaggery” or “asshole game” as blue-pillers and “social construct” gender theorists insist, hoping to win everyone over through lungpower, not evidence.

jf12
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jf12
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@SteveH, I refuse to concede that my lack of opportunities to be a cad made me MORE of a cad.

jf12
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jf12
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I fully expect the very next words to be “Nice Guys are the Real Jerks!”

eon
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eon
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To actually “build a better masculine standard that benefits both the individual man and the collective of humanity”, instead of just showing off at the expense of others (and the collective of humanity), would involve something more like saying: “this is what you are doing [necessary because the views from the inside out, and from the outside in, are different]; this is why it is not good; this is how you can fix it; go to my gym and I will teach you; you have no choice but to start from where you are; but if you show that you… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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You are making this too easy. Don’t you read Jezebel? NiceGuys(TM) ARE the new jerks. Always were. Scary thing when you think about it: they’re right. As the NiceGuy’s supplicating betatude fails, bitterness seeps in: I was told if I was nice I would ATTRACT the women who said be nice, but it ain’t working (misinterpreted as “a sense of entitlement” but really bewilderment at being defrauded – “the cake is a lie.”). And that anger seeps through and the women correctly sense that the NiceGuy(TM) isn’t so nice after all, and never was. What SteveH and the others are… Read more »

Chokmah
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Chokmah
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Rollo, I have probably missed many of your comments in deti’s post about “Path 2”. But I have got some suggestions for further themes in your site in this comment. Or perhaps you’ve already covered a lot of it in which case you might reference all the posts here. Thanks.

Pellaeon
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And that anger seeps through and the women correctly sense that the NiceGuy(TM) isn’t so nice after all, and never was. Next you’ll be telling us that “war is peace” and “2+2=5.” The whole “Nice Guy Tm” schtick is just the feminine imperative spinning up the propaganda engine to distract from the fact that THEY engineered the legions of “Nice Guys” in the first place. It’s the same thing that they’re doing now with NAMALT: for years gynocentrists have been spouting NAWALT like it was their job. The moment that same straw man starts getting turned on them, they hand… Read more »

Softek
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Softek
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One thing that helps me the most is taking long breaks from masturbation, and also quitting porn. I’m convinced that masturbation and porn play a large role in defusing not only courage and ambition to pursue real women and real sex, but courage and ambition in general. As far as authentic vs. fake behavior, quit porn, don’t whack off for a long period of time and see what happens to your personality, including the way you interact with women. The more I experiment with this, the more I believe that in all — or at least the vast majority —… Read more »

Steve H
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Steve H
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Palleon – great post. To answer your question “Why should they, or I, care that they don’t meet your standards of “Great men?” – I respond by quoting Rollo’s fundamental criticism of Kimmel and his defense of masculine spaces – that AFAICT seems to Rollo’s founding basis for having written this post in the first place: “These are the guys who never ‘got it’ that shit talking and locker room jabs (the same male space invaded by the feminine) are intended not just to determine masculine fitness, but to foster living, building and measuring up to a better masculine standard… Read more »

eon
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eon
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Rollo, I was channeling da GBFM, and not using Homer as a reference for a specific point in time. The modern bro-code of the locker room often consists of the posturing of people like Mike, who are “the situation” and nothing more, and the idea that such people could have lasted long unchanged, for instance, when Genghis Khan was ravaging Civilization, is a romanticized notion. My point is that the development of individuals and teams that are capable of dealing with serious conditions requires an approach that is pretty much the opposite of what you get in locker rooms. When… Read more »

Steve H
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Steve H
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Rollo – I just read the ‘Beer and Boobs’ post in full, and this is my comment on that: I’m not confused as to what masculinity means to me, nor am I confused as to the ‘positive masculinity’ I’d like to see actually lived-out in the real world. I wish more men were trustworthy. I wish less men were pussies. I wish less of my male friends and acquaintences bitched and moaned and attention-whored on social media. I’m well aware of how the FI would certainly sabotage any movements towards positive masculinity writ-large, and redirect that cultural progression for its… Read more »

New Yorker
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New Yorker
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Male warrior culture is anything but a polite, serious endeavor. It is a no holds barred phenomenon where the leaders are the craziest, most resilient psychos who will persevere through any obstacles. That is the only guy who can lead people into the shitstorm of battle. Incognito, with all of his weaknesses, filled that important role for the dolphins. Somehow, people have this noble goal of the eunuch warrior. That is just not truth. The degree of motivation and psychosis required to rule men does not easily facilitate that attitude. Please stop idealizing.

Spastic Monkey
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Feminine Beta male pussy role models like this is why bronies exist. I’ll quote Tyler Durden on this “A generation of men raised by women.”

jf12
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jf12
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re: “even when modern men *are* given the reins and self-determinism to rise above and ‘be all that they can be’, they still opt for lazy, slothful, juvenile meaninglessness that sometimes borders on sociopathy.” When does this occur?

Steve H
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Steve H
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c’mon jf12, you’re being obtuse. I was directly referencing the ‘Man Show’ there. Jersey Shore and that new ‘bastards’ show on Esquire I also find revolting. At least ‘Man Show’ had Carolla and *Jimmy* Kimmel who are pretty fuckin’ good role models for men IRL.

Let me give a counterexample. I enjoy the show ‘Dude you’re screwed’ on occasion. That’s the kind of ‘male bonding’ I’d like to see more of in our society.

jf12
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@SteveH, I don’t have examples from modern media; I don’t watch. I’m reasonably certain anything on there, including “reality” shows, is fake anyway. Is there an example from reality in which men “*are* given the reins and self-determinism to rise above”? If such an example putatively exists, is the men’s tendency to give up actually the same tendency observed in men who have concluded they will never have a real chance to be “given the reins and self-determinism to rise above”?

Steve H
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I rapidly transformed from Howard Dean democrat to hardcore Ron Paul libertarian in 2006. The catalyst? A 1st trip to the ‘3rd world’ – rural Nicaragua. Saw guys shucking papayas in the blazing 95 degree sun and then selling the fruit for about 7 cents each. And the folks were happier than we are, on the whole. I came back home to the states and could no longer fathom the welfare-state bullshit progressives spew in light of that experience. That being said, yes – western men absolutely have the wherewithall to take the reins, rise above, and self-determine. They have… Read more »

Softek
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Softek
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@ Rollo: That post was one of the inspirations I’ve been drawing on lately — that and the section you wrote about in your book that talks about the same thing. I was into the porn quitting movement for a while, then fell off the wagon, back on, then off…and now I’m back on. Instead of just quitting, now when I have urges to masturbate and/or go on porn, I’ve been holding myself to this: -Approach/interact with girls with Game in mind -Improve my SMV Those are my two options. One or the other, preferably both. No excuses. The funny… Read more »

Softek
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Softek
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Also: Mandatory listening, perfect lyrics.

jf12
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jf12
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Not buying the “take the reins” view at all. Most married men would have to physically wrestle the steering wheel out of their wife’s cold dead hands, for just a few moments of glorious self-determination “By golly I think I WILL go through the drivethru for a milkshake.” before he is arrested for murder.

However, it is within Western man’s power to take his ball and go his own way. That is all. It’s Ozymandius’s Kingdom, boundless and bare to the horizon, without even the colossal ruins to break the monotony.

jf12
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@Rollo, even too-frequent (and there is a definitive measure for it) masturbation does not deplete testosterone (although it certainly depletes several other things). In fact, a man used to daily ejaculations will experience a drop in testosterone after he ceases. And keep in mind the drop in testosterone that men experience after their wives give birth is 100% ascribable to the decrease in sexual activity.

Even in these actually-measurable drops, the effects are subtle and could not ever be olfactorily determined.

jf12
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jf12
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MHG content is uncorrelated with testosterone.

eon
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eon
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“Male warrior culture is anything but a polite, serious endeavor.” Male warrior culture is not a polite endeavor, but it damn sure is a serious endeavor. “It is a no holds barred phenomenon where the leaders are the craziest, most resilient psychos who will persevere through any obstacles.” This depends on what you mean by “crazy” and “psycho”. The great military leaders throughout history don’t fit the dictionary definitions, and present day unstable fanatics don’t last long against disciplined and serious special forces. “That is the only guy who can lead people into the shitstorm of battle. Incognito, with all… Read more »

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