Empathy

fracture

Deti, from a recent Just Four Guys comment thread:

Women cannot bear to see a Man experiencing negative emotions such as extreme anger, rage, fear, despair, despondency or depression for extended periods of time. You say you want to “be there” for your Man; but you cannot do it. If it goes on long enough, it kills the attraction; it sets off your hypergamy alarms; and subconsciously causes you to start hunting for a replacement Man.

A woman seeing a Male go through the above will seek to replace that Male immediately.

Women cannot listen to Men talking about or working out their dating/mating/relationship issues or problems. Women reflexively view a Man discussing such issues as “whining” or “complaining” or “bitterness” or “sour grapes” or “well, you just chose poorly, so sucks to be you” or “suck it up, no one wants to hear you bitching about it”.

As to both of the above principles; when a Male is involved, ratchet up by a factor of 5 the disdain and repulsion a woman experiences when seeing a Male do or experience the above.

Around the first week of August this year I suffered what’s commonly known as a ‘dancer’s fracture‘. For all of the risk taking activities I’ve engaged in over my life, I’d never had more than a hairline fracture on any bone in my body before this. This fucking hurt. Like edge of the bed, don’t turn the wrong way or you’re in agony kind of hurt. Forget about putting weight on it for 4-6 weeks, “holy shit I have a 2 story home” and my bed’s upstairs kind of hurt. The Doc explained that there’s really no way to set a dancer’s break so I’d just have to “tough it out” and take it easy. I refuse to take any kind of narcotic painkiller (Vicodin, etc) so it was ibuprofen and Tylenol for the better part of the first month.

After the first week, the pain went from “holy shit” to “ok, ow, ah fuck, yeah I can do this if I grit my teeth.” If a wild animal wanted to eat me, there’d have been no way for me to avoid it; I was literally hobbled for the first time in my life.

Sack up ya big pansy!

Now, do I sound like a big pansy to you? In my time I’ve squatted well over 400 lbs. I have benched 305 lbs. I’ve leg pressed the weight of small cars in my younger days. Most of the guys I know who’d broken a bone, or torn a bicep, or slipped a disc knew, and could empathize with, exactly what I was describing to them in great detail. However, my loving wife of 17 years and my fifteen year old daughter’s first reaction to my pain was “Oh, men are such babies! They all make such a big noise about how much it hurts. You think that’s hurt? That’s not hurt.” It was as if by their dismissing my injury I would get up and say “yeah, ok it’s really not so bad” and go back to mowing the lawn or something.

This has been a pretty consistent theme for Mrs. Tomassi – and every single woman I’d been involved with before her – women don’t want to accept that their Man could ever be incapacitated. Before I was Game-aware, I took this with a grain of salt. My wife has been a medical professional since she was in her early 20’s and she’s seen some pretty gnarly shit in various trauma centers so I had to take that into consideration. There’s a certain disconnect from human suffering in that line of work that has to be made or you lose it – I get that – but that still didn’t account for the default indifference to pain most every other female I know, including my own daughter and mother had ever had with regards to a man in legitimate physical pain.

The Mother-Nurturer Myth

One of the classic perceptions women, and even well-meaning men, perpetuate is the idea that women are the nurturers of humanity. They take care of the children, home and hearth. Theirs is the realm of the private and men’s that of the public – in fact this was one impression that early feminism took as its primary target, they wanted it all, private and public. Despite the statistics about abortion, despite the realities of Hypergamy and the War Brides dynamic, the classic characterization of woman as mother, nurturer, nurse and caregiver have endured, even as a complement to the Strong Independent® characterization feminism would reimagine for women.

Perhaps it’s due to a deeply enrgamatic hard-wiring of the importance of  hypergamy into the feminine’s psychological firmware, but women cannot accept that any man, and in particular a Man worth considering as a suitable hypergamic pairing, might ever be incapacitated. The feminine subconscious refuses to acknowledge even the possibility of this. Perpetuating the species and ensuring the nurturing her offspring maybe part of her pysche’s hard-code, but ensuring the survival and provisioning of her mate is not. This isn’t to say that women can’t learn (by necessity) to assist in her mate’s wellbeing, it’s just not what evolution has programmed her for – it requires effort on her part.

I propose this because women’s solipsistic nature (predicated on hypergamy) necessarily excludes them from empathizing with the male experience – and this extends to men’s legitimate pain. The idea that a man, the man her hypergamy betted its genetic inheritance on for protection and provisioning, could be so incapacitated that she would have to provide him with protection and provisioning is so counter-valent to the feminine imperative that the feminine psyche evolved psychological defenses (“men are just big babies when it comes to pain”) against even considering the possibility of it. Thus, due to species-beneficial hypergamy, women fundamentally lack the capacity to empathize with the male experience, and male pain.

Empathy vs. Sympathy

Now, before I’m deluged with offended women’s binary responses to the contrary, I very specifically used the term empathize rather than sympathize in my evaluation of women’s psychological coping dynamics here. There is a universal and comparative difference between sympathy and empathy:

Empathy is the ability to mutually experience the thoughts, emotions, and direct experience of others. It goes beyond sympathy, which is a feeling of care and understanding for the suffering of others. Both words have similar usage but differ in their emotional meaning.

Empathy Sympathy
Definition: Understanding what others are feeling because you have experienced it yourself or can put yourself in their shoes. Acknowledging another person’s emotional hardships and providing comfort and assurance.
Example: I know it’s not easy to lose weight because I have faced the same problems myself. When people try to make changes like this (e.g. lose some weight) at first it seems difficult.
Relationship: Personal Friends, family and community ( the experience of others) .
Nursing context: Relating with your patient because you have been in a similar situation or experience Comforting your patient or their family
Scope: Personal, It can be one to many in some circumstances From either one to another person or one to many (or one to a group).

Sympathy essentially implies a feeling of recognition of another’s suffering while empathy is actually sharing another’s suffering, if only briefly. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to “put oneself into another’ shoes”. So empathy is a deeper emotional experience.

Empathy develops into an unspoken understanding and mutual decision making that is unquestioned, and forms the basis of tribal community. Sympathy may be positive or negative, in the sense that it attracts a perceived quality to a perceived self identity, or it gives love and assistance to the unfortunate and needy.

Women do not lack a capacity to sympathize with male hardship or pain, but they categorically lack a capacity to empathize with uniquely male experiences.

This needs to be made clear to both sexes. While I have no doubt that many a woman may have experienced the pain of a dancer’s fracture they’ve never experienced that pain as a man, and therefore cannot empathize with that experience. Now, extrapolate this pain to other aspects of a man’s life, or his idealizations about how he would want a woman to love him.

I constantly see the term empathy supplant the term sympathy when used by women; as if their feminine character uniquely transcends merely sorrow or compassion for someone in pain, but becomes somehow magically equitable with feeling that person’s pain. As an insulation against the cruel realities that their own hypergamy demands and exacts on men, women convince themselves that their sympathy is really empathy, and their innate solipsism only serves to further insulate them from even having the curiosity to attempt real empathy towards men.

It’s the Just Get It dynamic on a more subliminal level; if a woman has to put forth the effort to truly attempt to empathize with a man, he just doesn’t get it, she marginalizes his experience and continues her hypergamous search for the Alpha who doesn’t force her to real empathy.

This fantasy of feminine-specific empathy can be traced back to the Mother-Nurturer myth attributed to the feminine as well as the mysticism of the Feminine Mystique. If women are the unquestionably unknowable forces of nature that the Mystique constantly batters into popular consciousness, it’s not too far a stretch to accept that the mythical feminine intuition might also stretch to their literally experiencing the pain of others in an almost psychic fashion. If women are the “life-givers” (mother-godesses?) how could they not have some quasi-psychic connection to that which they’ve birthed?

That all makes for good fiction, but it hardly squares against the “oh, men are such big babies when it comes to pain” trope, or does it? If women are granted the authority to define what really hurts and what doesn’t for men – due to a socially presumed ownership of empathy – then this puts them into a better control of which men can best qualify for feminine hypergamy. In other words, women own the selective-breeding game if they can convince men that they know, by literal experience, what really hurts a man and what doesn’t, or what shouldn’t.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Not Carrie Bradshaw
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New Yorker, I think men are conflicted about getting a self-sufficient woman. It helps if she is able to defend or fend for herself, thus freeing him to concentrate on his own survival. But as the men here have stated here many many time before, men start to lose sexual attraction for these sorts of women. It most certainly dies if she beats up his tormentors like the way big sister used to come to your aid when you got bullied in the schoolyard.

jadoescher
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There are a few determinants to the level of sympathy you get from a woman in the face of adversity: -Your relationship with her. If you break your leg or get the flu in the first few months of dating her, she will be at your side with medicine, pillows, hot soup, reading material, sexual favors, whatever. Once you move in with her, marry her, or have kids with her, it’s a whole different story. Now you are expected to be a provider, protector, and handyman, and any injury or illness gets in the way of that. -Your level of… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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Since this is categorized under hypergamy, I’ll add this story that doesn’t have to do with pain. And I’ll try to keep it short but still illustrative. Recently used facebook to get in touch with a female friend I knew. Had never used facebook before. This friend has been doing some modeling, saw her on tv, and now she’s getting more into acting. We reconnected and have each other as friends and talked a little. Now since I’m new to facebook, I started exploring and found that you can look up post that people have made in a timeline for… Read more »

rouge
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rouge
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Man or woman… nobody wants to be around a moping loser.

Never Mind the Balzac
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As any PUA will tell you – male-neediness is cryptonite to women.

In fact if Game were to be distilled down to one sentence, it would read – avoid appearing needy at all costs.

There’s no reason to expect this to change just because you were rash enough to put a ringonit.

New Yorker
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@ Not Carrie Bradshaw

I think that self-sufficiency can simply be a quiet confidence, which I think everyone likes, rather than batshit feminazism (which no one likes and is not really strength anyway). The upshot here is that to attract a strong woman, one needs to be a strong man in control of his life. Otherwise, one is stuck with an emotionally unstable wreck, which unfortunately is most women.

MikePhil
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This is one incredibly revealing essay here. It’s one of those things that you never consciously thought about, but on reflecting your own past experience as a man, it’s all spelled out clearly. To build on what Rollo said, I think it’s a combination of two factors; one, that hearing about our pain and suffering is unwelcome at best and met with outright derision at worst, and two, any voicing of that pain and suffering in front of a woman will sound the alarm bells and immediately devalue your worth. It’s as if your pain is a personal affront to… Read more »

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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Jeremy
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@Bourdonne (@Bourdonne) …Although the other problem also exists, namely that women’s complaints are often underestimated and written of as ‘hysteria’ which leads to important diagnoses being missed in women, such as heart infarcts. Your terminology is fine, your reframing isn’t. …Childbirth IS painful though. I have done it 5 times and in The Netherlands too, which means no epidural, and it hurts. But it is very true that lots of women tend to see it as some sort of achievement, thereby being rude to women who did have an epidural as if that is somehow weak, and also acting if… Read more »

Jeremy
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@M3 Using the evolutionary train of thought.. would it not be disadvantageous for a female to leave her wounded mate instead of tending to him and getting him back into health? Not really. In neanderthal times, men were much better suited to surviving than women were. I can see this likely resulting in a skewed population ratio where 60+% of the population at any given time was male. Presuming this (correct me now if you’re the right ologist), you would have a situation where a male death or incapacitation could more easily be replaced by a surviving woman by simply… Read more »

Jeremy
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I, personally, have experienced both sides of this coin from women. What I find is that women are different. While some women will be very openly sympathetic to physical pain, they are likely very cold w.r.t. emotional pain, and vice versa in other women. I briefly dated a nearly 6-foot tall blonde who was also my salsa dance partner on a few organized performance salsa teams at my university. She wasn’t just 6′, she was also packed with muscle and fat. Don’t misunderstand me, she had the right proportions, body wise (7 easy), but she is just big. She was… Read more »

Rob
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I’ve been following this site for nearly a year (maybe longer) and most if not all of these articles have resonated with me but this one hit home more than any other. Nothing in my own life has been easy, I grew up in a home with a physically and sexually abusive father who drank way too much, when he wasn’t putting his hands on my mother, he was taking it out on me or my little brother (in more ways than one). So I grew up with a really jaded view of reality about how men were and how… Read more »

Rob
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“…One common theme I’ve encountered amongst the more zealous beta White Knights I’ve counseled over the years has been this determination, bordering on fanaticism, with outdoing the life-performance of their asshole fathers. Before I go on further, many of them had legitimately rotten, alcoholic dads, who were abusive to them and their mothers.”

– that’s crazy shit right there, every time I read something on this site it feels like it’s talking directly to me – thanks Rollo.

New Yorker
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@ Rob

Congrats on getting your life in order. As a divorced Dad, what finally broke the camel’s back was seeing my wife’s crazy tantrums. What pushed me to finally call it quits was the idea of raising my son with an uncontrollably hysterical/abusive mother. Totally agree that life is never better when you are liberated to raise your kids without that negative influence.

Jack
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This squares with my experience. In both of my LTRs with women, I have been accused of not being “empathetic”, yet I know for a fact that I am deeply empathetic. What I fail to express – sometimes – is sympathy. I *feel* the pain of others, but I do not often express it in a way that communicates it – perhaps because when I am in pain, I don’t need or want words of sympathy; I just want someone to understand. Both my ex-wife and my current GF believe that they are superior in empathy, yet I can say… Read more »

diana
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diana
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Whatever…women still have more sympathy and empathy for men than other men do.

Sam Spade
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Solipsism alert, but my wife would never have called men “babies” or belittled my pain. But she was from a far away land where the grand old bargain struck between the sexes still stands.

John South
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“If you allow yourself to get weak, then only bad things can happen.” In other words, no matter your relationship status you are alone in the world. If you lose your job or get hurt you’ll soon find yourself alone. All the more reason to go it alone without the added financial burden. That money you waste on foolishness for her could save your life. Let’s face it, if you are that fit you don’t need a wife, you can get pussy when you need it. If she only loves me when I don’t need her – why do I… Read more »

Rob
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Rob
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“…Whatever…women still have more sympathy and empathy for men than other men do.”

– Nice response, how “empathetic” of you wink

Kate
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Or one could say: Men do not lack a capacity to sympathize with female hardship or pain, but they categorically lack a capacity to empathize with uniquely female experiences. I think both sides are capable of dismissing the pain the other partner feels as a denial/protection mechanism. That would mean not that they don’t empathize with each other, but that they do and are unable to come to grips with it. It isn’t so much a matter of gender difference as a disparity in fortitude. In the case of your wife, I’d say its more of an occupational hazard that… Read more »

jennifer yanochik
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am a 48 yr. old female i used to scuba dive- -run track -play basketball-take care of 7 kids –Now i have MS and in constant PAIN i have a hard time walking-dressing etc. but my guy thinks nothing is wrong-it is all in my head. NICE ! i quit defending myself.-he is not worth it!! GOD BLESS-jky-

Markos_kasimeyoglu
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I really feel for a man like this. He needed to exit almost immediately from this relationship. Most of us have been in a situation like this at some point but the depth this man went is pretty painful even to read. All young men do need education on this matter but articles like this confirm the stereotype that the manosphere is full of fat, angry old limp dicked losers who blame women for the losses. The blame doesn’t fall on the women but the man. None of us deserve to sit on the top of the pyramid and very… Read more »

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[…] very apparent the whole episode thoroughly disgusted her.  This was one of the rare times I really needed her to understand and just love and help me help our family get through these hard yet temporary challenges.  […]

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[…] friend of mine told me that women do not like to see a man struggle.  This is a very true statement, because women have no empathy, regardless of the relationship dynamic.  Even though C was asking […]

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[…] a more amused mastery in my future relationships because ALL WOMEN ARE IN FACT JUST LIKE HER and women do not have any empathy for a man’s problems.  She had to make she also told me she always had money to pay for her […]

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[…] Rollo writes on his experience. Sunshine Mary posts of repentance after the fact here, as well as reposts here, but has the attitude of deserving a medal for doing the bare minimum her marriage vows demand. The comments are full of like stories, every one worth a read. It should be noted that if the situation she writes were reversed (she injured, he not run right out and care for her at every moment), they would be divorced, and he would be in jail as an abuser. Iron-clad guarantee. But men are pond scum on the shoes of women,… Read more »

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[…] second (symbolic?) mistake Redlum makes is making an appeal for sympathy. In Empathy I outlined women’s gut-level, evolutionarily selected-for, lack of empathizing with the male […]

Tiffany Wricks
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Instead of making this a gender issue, it could be as simple as you can’t see a dancer’s fracture, and it just doesn’t look that bad. When I was 8 I broke my pinkie toe, and my parents chastised me for crying, until they found out it was broken then my dad got me icecream or something because he felt bad about yelling at me. Then when I had to wear sandals (because closed toe shoes put pressure on it and made it HURT) which was against school dress code, I got little sympathy from anyone and people thought I… Read more »

Tiffany Wricks
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Right, I get that men have different social expectations when it comes to pain. But it’s not just from women. From what I’ve observed, and from what my husband has experienced, men are the worst at telling each other to suck it up or grow a pair. Is it right? Probably not. If anything it stops men from going to the doctors when they should. But it’s not really a women vs men issue if guys are perpetrating the attitude as much as women. Women do the same thing to other women. Women by all accounts should be able to… Read more »

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[…] you are worse than useless. You are a drain on the people around you. Few people have the combined empathy and tolerance to put up with such toxic people for […]

Vegard Jorgen
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Vegard Jorgen
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The retard that wrote this article has the IQ of a gold fish. Wait that’s being too nice; gold fish aren’t this stupid. Anyone who agrees with this article is just as stupid. Women aren’t loving and nurturing? In what fucking looney universe you live in? The sky must be green in your world. Yeah American women aren’t nurturing and loving, but real, traditional women are. Take foreign women for example, particularly Japanese women. American women are thoroughly fucked up by feminism. That’s why AMERICAN women aren’t the warm, tidy, loving, nurturing creatures women are supposed to be. I hate… Read more »

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[…] Empathy […]

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[…] performance. To believe so is to believe in women’s mythical capacity for a higher form of empathy which would perdispose them to overriding their innate hypergamous filtering based on […]

StichInTime
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Just saying, I never once held a moment’s consideration for my wife’s condition during pregnancy and childbirth. It was just a thing that she went through and it was completely off my radar of empathy because I had absolutely no frame of reference for her experience. Her first pregnancy was a c-section due to complications. Nurses recommended I walk her around the ward every couple of hours to keep the blood flowing to help with the stitches. What did I do during the walks? Kept her laughing to the point she suffered from extreme abdominal pain. Never once, even years… Read more »

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[…] I published Empathy I figured I’d get some backlash from women in the oversimplified binaries I’ve come to […]

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[…] we begin begin to empathize with his situation (females can only sympathize): losing the love of his life and hopping on the hedonic treadmill of casual sex with the women who […]

Divided Line
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What a cruel and shitty world we live in. What a shame women make it this way.

James
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James
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Yep. Amazing a woman’s inability to empathize at times. When their sex is often given almost exclusive use of the term, in regards to social behavior. I am highly empathetic male. But also a highly logical one. The two are not mutually exclusive. Neither are such traits exclusive to one gender or the other. I think for many women in today’s society it is easier to replace a man, than it is to nurture the one you have. Clearly this is the case. I saw a study recently about cheating behaviors. It said that women in committed relationships were 40%… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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That was a good read..

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[…] from performance. To believe so is to believe in women’s mythical capacity for a higher form of empathy which would perdispose them to overriding their innate hypergamous filtering based on […]

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[…] from performance. To believe so is to believe in women’s mythical capacity for a higher form of empathy which would perdispose them to overriding their innate hypergamous filtering based on […]

nagibiscool
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nagibiscool
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Misogynistic piece of shit website and article. It already has been proven women are superior in empathy over men. Majority of men do not feel sufficient empathy and the ones that do are within the minority.

rugby11ljh
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@nagibiscool
“Misogynistic piece of shit website and article. It already has been proven women are superior in empathy over men. Majority of men do not feel sufficient empathy and the ones that do are within the minority.” Please share your data. You sure seem to know what your talking about.

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[…] I wrote Empathy I got taken to task about women’s capacity to feel empathy to a greater degree than do men. […]

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[…] gets back to the preternatural Empathy myth that women, by virtue of just being a woman, has some instinctual, empathetic insight about […]

BK
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BK
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Rollo, This week I picked up and finished The Red Queen, due to several of your references to it. Based on this book, I wonder if part of your wife and daughters in ability to sympathize with your injury is partially due to the effects of testosterone and their view of you as alpha. Ridley writes that testosterone enhances traits women find attractive (strength, dominance, aggression,…) but that testosterone also negatively hits the immune system – so that the ultimate male is one who both demonstrates positive attributes without being sick. I could imagine that a woman who views her… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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“Women do not lack a capacity to sympathize with male hardship or pain, but they categorically lack a capacity to empathize with uniquely male experiences.”

The red pill

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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Questions

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[…] From Empathy: […]

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[…] Girls are given opportunities to practice loving and nurturing behaviours throughout their lives, whereas boys are called ‘gay’ or emasculated by their peers for doing so. Boys are often discouraged from speaking their mind, for being soft or […]

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[…] it comes to guilt because men and women popularly believe that women have a supernatural gift for empathy. It simply ‘sounds right’ to believe that a woman had an error in judgement whilst a […]

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[…] comes to guilt because men and women popularly believe that women have a supernatural gift for empathy. It simply ‘sounds right’ to believe that a woman had an error in judgement whilst a […]

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[…] feel bad for not feeling as a woman feels. This kind of goes back to the point I was making in Empathy; while it may be possible for a woman to sympathize with your feelings, she will never be able to […]

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[…] feel bad for not feeling as a woman feels. This kind of goes back to the point I was making in Empathy; while it may be possible for a woman to sympathize with your feelings, she will never be able to […]

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[…] equal, blank-slates until anger is better attributed to “toxic” masculinity and some preternatural capacity for empathy in women are beliefs the Feminine Imperative reinforces in its cultural […]

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[…] really easy to think of this as male victimhood or that a guy is complaining about his lot in life. Empathy, especially amongst men, has always been in short supply. I’ve learned the hard way never to […]

Steven
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Steven
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When I was lying in a hospital bed in agony while passing a kidney stone with complications, is all the nurse told me is that it is very painful, “almost as much as having a baby!” In fact, any pain a man feels is almost as much as having a baby.

Sri
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Sri
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Rollo, women can take labour pain and it’s a badge of honour for them. If a man can’t take what “appears” to be less painful (and I’m not sure if there are as many things as physically miserable as a 20 hour long labour….), they can’t respect him at all. Strength is attractive, weakness repulsive But your point is bang on – a woman can do very little for a man’s pain. It’s also a bit weird for the children — if you were a boy and you saw your dad sobbing, you don’t quite get it. That’s also why… Read more »

Sri
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Sri
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Rollo, women can take labour pain and it’s a badge of honour for them. If a man can’t take what “appears” to be less painful (and I’m not sure if there are as many things as physically miserable as a 20 hour long labour….), they can’t respect him at all. Strength is attractive, weakness repulsive But your point is bang on – a woman can do very little for a man’s pain. It’s also a bit weird for the children — if you were a boy and you saw your dad sobbing, you don’t quite get it. That’s also why… Read more »

Peter Yellman
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Wow this is so real. In our first 15 years of being together, my faithless wife only ever accompanied me to the hospital for the treatment of fairly serious injuries twice, once when I spilled flaming bacon grease on my hand and there was no alternative other than for her to drive me to the emergency room immediately, and another when I experience a large cut on my head that was gushing blood. In all other cases, including surgery for a fully torn achilles tendon, spinal injections for herniated disks, multiple disk surgery for the same condition, complex knee surgery,… Read more »

Pamala James
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Pamala James
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I am the type of person that will listen and encourage and support a man in good times and bad. He can cry, be sad, be angry, confused, all the range of emotion and I will be there for him. I am an empathetic, compassionate person. A man is not less a man because he struggles, or cries; in fact, a man who is strong enough to show his vulnerabilities to me is to be admired.

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