Dreams of the Future Past

Untitled from Where the Dreams were Growing Wild

For about the last two weeks I’ve been conferring with a good friend about a situation I’ve yet to address since becoming red pill aware.

My friend James is an interesting fellow. Now at 56, he’s had a life of ups and downs, and varied experiences. He’s travelled extensively both in his impoverished youth and now in his affluence (and relative celebrity) he still makes trips to location most people wouldn’t have on their vacation destinations list. He’s insightful, mature and what I’d call a lesser Alpha.

James has been through two tumultuous marriages – one from an idealistic phase where he pedestalized not just his young wife, but the institution of marriage itself, and one from his 30’s after not having learned his lessons in idealism. He’s been on the receiving end of the divorce industry, but thankfully he didn’t come into his money until after these were settled. He is presently on his 3rd marriage and this is the “one that stuck” for him. They compliment each other well, but considering they were in their late 40’s and he’d finally come into some marked success when they married I’m hardly surprised.

For the most part, and by my own estimation, James is a successful, well-intentioned Man – his only delusion in being still firmly entrenched in his blue pill understanding about women and the greater game that’s influenced his life thus far. He’s resisted my efforts to educate him in Game-awareness for a while now, and since he’d married a woman who complements his personality so well I didn’t see the harm in just letting him be and focus my efforts elsewhere. James has a demonstrated predilection to white knight and his somewhat Alpha attitude has made him one of the more vocal opponents I’ve had in explaining red pill truths to him or others involved in our past conversations. He has a knack for baselessly rejecting or sidestepping red pill truths that just don’t fit into his personal narrative, or he feels in someway invalidates how he’d handled the women in his past.

The Mentor

One thing James was never able to do situationally (not biologically) with his past wives was to have children. He makes the convenient declarations about how he “never wanted to be a father” most successful childless men do. Once he’d met his 3rd wife they were both at an age where kids were impractical for them. Remarkably his present wife was childless when they married and both of them didn’t want to run the risks of pregnancy at such a late stage in life. Neither did they feel any compulsion to adopt since James’ success came to him at a later stage in his maturity, however that didn’t stop him from wanting to, at least indirectly, be a father to someone.

Almost six years ago James became a mentor to a relatively impoverished boy of 12. Over those six years, he’s filled in for the father role of this boy who’s own father left his mother when he was 5. Whether it was from a sense of wanting to pass on his wisdom or an unachievable need to be a father in some respect, James admirably took Michael under his stewardship.

Over the years James played the role reasonably well considering the demands of his job and personal life. He payed for Michael’s schooling needs, encouraged him in sports, made attempts to motivate and inspire him, and gave him opportunities to experience things he would never had the chance to without his mentorship. He was certainly a great father figure for a kid who had no father.

The years went on and like most father’s James had to deal with his ‘son’s’ teenage misbehaviors. Nothing criminal occurred, but the requisite delinquency and sometimes truancy that boys will engage in was off-putting for him. In actuality Michael’s personality was a lot like James’, a lesser Alpha when he wanted to get his way (or ignore other people’s ways), but a confirmed beta when it came to deference to women. Michael has the predictable ‘promise keeper’s‘ Oedipus beliefs about his biological father, as a result of his having been raised by a single mother’s predominantly feminized influences.

The Perfect Storm

All of this investment and third hand discipline has come to a head now. James is currently dealing with a 17 (soon to be 18) year old boy who’s entered into the perfect storm phase of his life. He’s gotten himself a girlfriend, and is struggling with what to do with himself after high school ends in June. Michael has no interest in planning for a future beyond graduating from high school. He’s become increasingly disconnected with James – which is really putting James off for having invested himself in his adolescence – and essentially disregards anything James has to say about his interests in his future.

Recently James footed the bill for Michael to take the SAT and ACT exams for which he never showed up for, and this set James off. His understandable reaction was to lecture him about the necessity of a good education (something James himself only came to after ‘exploring’ on his own for the first 3-4 years after his graduation) and was met with simple ambiguous disinterest in his ‘fatherly advice’. Michael claims to have a plan, but say “college isn’t for him”.

James’ next step was to seek advice himself on how to deal with his ‘family’ crisis from other fathers he knew as well as anyone he thought might have more insight than he. He’s only been doing the father thing for six years as it is, so logically he needed some outside advice from other parents. Most predictably sided with his indignation. The kid is just ungrateful and doesn’t realize the advantage he’s been given to him from people truly invested in his future success. The tough love route was suggested and James is no longer going to be paying for certain bills he’d assumed for Michael while he was in high school.

James says it’s not a punishment, but a learning occasion to teach Michael the necessity of having a job in order to pay for things, but it’s difficult to believe coming from James who’d had high hopes for future appreciation; for doing good in some young man’s life – it’s almost a Savior Schema. Only now that expectation of a shared association of Michael’s future success is looking more like a dead end.

Revelation

About a week and a half ago James asked me for my input. I’ve been familiar with Michael and James’ commitment to being a good surrogate father with him for about 4 years now. I wasn’t sure that James really wanted to hear what I was going to tell him, because it was going to require that he listen to the red pill reason he didn’t like.

Having been raised by the feminine imperative, Michael is now making the transition into dealing with the insecurities that come as a part of that conditioning. He’s finally having sex with his first girlfriend and everything revolves around ensuring a future where he can perpetuate it. His girlfriend is one year behind him in school so his greatest ambition at this point is finding a way to guarantee they will be together once she graduates and moves on to some college of her choosing. His plan for his future is to follow along with whatever plan is her future.

Asking Michael to abandon her, in his own best interests, is to ask him to be selfish – much in the same fashion that he associates his biological father as being selfish. Michael can’t think past this because focusing on himself would be aligning himself with his real father. Beyond this, the reinforcement of semi-regular sex cements the certainy of his duty to making his future her future.

As expected, James didn’t like this revelation. He was a white knight, and to a degree so is Michael, but the point of contention was too obvious to ignore – Michael’s dependency on what the feminine imperative had conditioned into him (really both of them) was now at a loggerhead with the financial, personal and emotional investment James had committed himself to, and expected appreciation for, over the last six years.

James went into denial. He wouldn’t accept that what I’d been telling him for years was the source of his frustration with Michael. Out came the standard boilerplate platitudes, “Ah kids, they never appreciate anything you do for them! He’s just at that age. Who really knows what they want to do at 18? I didn’t.” I thought his words were ironic, not because he’d only been a parent for 6 years, but because of how similar his own experience was with Michael’s. It was almost a surrender for him. He wanted better for Michael, but that desire was conflicting with his own ego-investment in the feminine imperative.

So I find myself at an impasse here. I’m attempting to simultaneously unplug a soon to be 18 year old kid and a 56 year old man, both suffering from from the same infection. James, like I think most men do, had hopes of directing his ‘son’s’ path towards a brighter future by avoiding the pitfalls he had to endure. Only now he’s being cruelly reminded of how his own social conditioning began by re-experiencing it through Michael.

For his part Michael isn’t going to have any ambition for himself until he has nothing left to lose, including his girlfriend. He’s not going to join the military, sees no point in taking the SAT and will most likely only do just the bare minimum to sustain himself until such time that his girlfriend’s ambition supersedes his own and she moves on, or worse, he knocks her up. Even James’ framing the possibility of his girlfriend leaving him due to his lack of ambition doesn’t register for him because Michael’s feminine conditioning has ‘taught’ him that she’ll inherently appreciate his investment in her.

80 comments

  1. Speaking from personal experience, the same beta mindset carries over to college graduations, too. Ultimately, the saddest part is that, in putting his dreams on hold so they can continue to be together, he’s killing her attraction for him and thus almost guaranteeing the relationship won’t last.

  2. Good post, I think many women would prefer their man to lead instead of be nice to them. Leading is not selfish and letting her lead would be a mistake.

  3. If Michael had no Red Pill wisdom in the earlier stages, I think it’s next to impossible to unplug him until he comes face to face with, “I don’t understand. I did all that was asked and it didn’t work.” It will be at that time that you have a window, before women surround him and tell him to be a “nice guy” and “don’t change.” Essentially, you’re asking him to notice the water when he’s never really been thrown out of it and onto the beach, gasping for air.
    As far as James, I give an older guy a couple chances to unplug (I’ve had about a 40% success rate when I approach the topic). Older men have the benefit of experience and reason. If they don’t make the connection after a couple good faith efforts, you have to move on. I’ve helped one brother, almost all my nephews (7), and almost have another brother coming around. I lost a good friend to Churchianity (he literally said women should be on pedastals, even after going through a divorce in which his wife cheated on him and he is probably raising someone else’s kid[s]).
    Your biggest issue, depending on how well you are acquainted with Michael, is when the mother or James tells you to back off.

  4. Rollo, any way to slip the kid some blog references? Or at least suggest James do it to give Michael a broader perspective. He would not be ready for this or Roissy or even Roosh but the younger guys, especially the military types like Danny or Dogsquat, might make an impression. Hey, you did your best.

  5. Holding out for a woman will almost mean the end of the relationship. You lose precious time.

    I did this and it bit me in the ass. Never again.

  6. I was trying to think of a good teen movie or book, but I’m really drawing a blank. You might take a peek at threads by BetterThan or Grimbo over at The Attraction Forums. I believe they are both still nineteen and you may not agree with everything they have to say, but they’re on the right track and young people tend to learn from their peers.

  7. Some men are completely hopeless. If a man hasn’t learned after 56 years and 3 marriages there’s a pretty good chance he’ll take the blue pill to his grave.

    The kid won’t start to listen until his relationship implodes. When I was growing up I had a healthy dose of skepticism toward things which enabled me to find the truth on my own after a sufficient number of frustrating encounters with women, but if I had had a voice of reason whispering in my ear the first couple of times shit wasn’t making sense I think I would have accepted the truth a lot sooner.

    Right now he won’t listen to a damn thing anyone tells him because he thinks he knows everything. Eating a slice of humble pie is a precursor to swallowing the red pill.

  8. Holding onto a girl instead of transitioning from high school to college? Jesus, I didn’t know that Oneitis could get that bad.

    I’d say that if he manages to hang around long enough for her to go to college, then she may react by depending on Michael like a security blanket, maybe for her entire freshman year. But she’s going to be exposed to so many other men that Michael will start to lose his appeal, and she’ll probably end up as the door prize at a frat party before the middle of her sophomore year.

    One guess on my part — is she considerably less attractive than he is capable of pulling?

  9. Michael’s immersed in “oneitis.” I suppose you need to focus energy on curbing that affliction first.

    Start small, work from there.

  10. “Holding onto a girl instead of transitioning from high school to college? Jesus, I didn’t know that Oneitis could get that bad.”

    Oh yeah…or holding onto a girl from college into real life. Saw that many times.

  11. Kate: A GREAT teen red pill movie is “The Last American Virgin.” It’s a goofy 80s teen sex comedy with a fairy tale plot that has an incredible red pill twist at the ending. The whole time you think it’s blue pill until, WHAM! a very unexpected ending.

    Lots of nudity, too.

  12. Somewhat apropos, and just in time for this week on Jezebel.com today:
    “Fuck You Week: Fuck You, MRA’s”
    With a special mention of Kate Harding’s piece on beta saps whose poor approaches to women they want to meet makes the women “keep their guard up” which means the betas are the real EVIL CREEPY RAPISSSES

    So no matter how nice and white knighty you are – both of you will still be Creepy McCreepster.
    Could link – but what’s the point? Plus I know the proprietors aren’t keen on giving them traffic or inviting nasty linkbacks. Them’s as wants their craniums popping know where to look…

  13. Asking Michael to abandon her, in his own best interests, is to ask him to be selfish – much in the same fashion that he associates his biological father as being selfish.

    I see that Michael selling himself in utter loyalty to his girlfriend is a kind of selfishness. He is thinking only of what will gain him comfort and happiness, too important facets in the female imperative. Consideration of others would lift Michael above his feminine comfort zone and drive him toward independence and leadership, putting him in a position to benefit his fellow man. The smallness of his life outlook is a selfish outlook and it is something that I believe is a plague on men.

  14. Much of this situation exceeds what anyone ought to be compelled to intervene. Its two people and their choices. Unfortunately Rollo you are not Morpheus and it very likely is not up to you to unplug this 18 yo.

    That said I have this advise for your friend.

    The younger kids are the more a parent can and should use the full volley of tools available to him in B.Mod: pos & neg reinforcement, occasional and consequential but detached nonemotional punishment, operant conditioning, rewards, organized systems of short and long term rewards and beyond that direct cognitive and emotive engagement and human connection.

    The older they get, the more independent they are, the more you have to drop sticks from the toolkit while keeping carrots there and making them juicier.

    In practical terms that means: 1) tell the kid what you think if and only if he’s listening and either way keep it simple and short 2) don’t lecture, punish or negatively reinforce but 3) do positively reinforce, for example:

    “Look its your life you don’t have to do X last of all people I am not going to make you. But if you do I will help you this way … so just tell me if or when you will. If not, that’s your choice.”

    Then accept the choice. He may decline, then come back later. If he does, be gracious, learning can be slow.

    As an adult his longterm good choices may be counted to a mentor as a success, but they are his choices and wont always work out they way you’d think. Help anyway you can and wish to that keeps your integrity, but allow that the help, especially conditional help may be declined, and that either way you can’t control the outcome.

  15. See if you can get this kid to see beyond one person. Clearly he’s not responding to logic – he’s focused on access to pussy and his conditioning in the female matrix dictates the logic he uses to go about securing the source of pussy.

    Tempt him with more pussy. Give him opportunities to get laid by someone else, better looking, better in bed, etc. See if you can get him hooked on the possibility of more pussy in the future.

    Attack his emotional state, not his logic, for his logic is corrupted and faulty. As a young teenage boy, his hormones should make the “honey pot” to save his life, tenable.

    Does this make sense Rollo?

    Not dialectic, not even rhetoric. Base animal manipulation.

    How you explain this to your friend is up to you.

  16. You know another thing is learning to be independent, let alone learning to be alpha, comes connected to making your own decisions.
    A smart parent starts disconnecting his/her will from a kids decisions so that the kid learns to make them, knows he owns them, and doesn’t feel like “maybe i’m not a man because i’m just doing what my dad told me too” or “I need to do something different from what my parents told me to do, just to prove to me and them that I can”.

    Those thoughts are often unconscious, but when a parent is not untethering at the right pace they will be inevitable as part of the process of becoming independent.

    Offer a helping hand when good choices are made, but get out of the way, either way.

  17. Martel: Just read a synopsis of that. I think the eighties was the last decade for people to care about lost innocence. The explosion of cable and internet since has had repercussions that I don’t think have been fully realized. With an overwhelming supply of input, the value of everything has decreased, including our ability to feel compassion.

  18. Fascinating read Rollo. Nothing to add, other than I’d love to see research on that. Before I left the social sciences, I can’t remember much research on areas like this at all.

  19. Kate,
    the compassion vacuum is one i’ve been wondering a lot about. I have to question myself though about how much of it is that we’re losing the ability for it and how much is it that we are just noticing how little sooooooo many people have?
    before you could experience compassion and feel assured (if totally wrong) that most agreed with your compassion or else if they knew what you knew then they would.
    now you see hundreds or thousands of comments on comment threads on cnn or huffpo or whatever msm source with limitless case examples of folks proclaiming their noncompassion for all to read.

  20. Case: Its guess its like movies about the Holocaust. You only need to see one to get it. The more exposed to anything one is, the more desensitized one becomes. Because of the internet, our worlds, regardless of where we live, have opened up so much that we can’t help but lose our uniqueness. We have traded in our personal fables in order to gain connection. We have exchanged our “must see t.v.” for hundreds of channels and have probably, as a result, become more of a divided nation.

    Well, that was off the topic, but interesting to think about 🙂

  21. I almost think in cases like this you need an intervention of some sort. Invite the kid to a room filled with the male victims of nasty divorces. Have each of them tell him their stories, including all of the things they did to try and keep their women happy. The kid may blow you all off, but later on, when his relationship with his girlfriend implodes, some of the stuff that happens to him might remind him of the stories he’s heard and that might open his heart to accepting red pill ideas. Just an idea.

  22. James injected himself into this child’s life and had no idea what he was getting involved with due to the fact that he is inexperienced with children. This whole subject is depressing. James has no right to any expectations.

    Sounds just like the AFC / Beta who marries a single mom with a grand illusion that he will become an actual member of their family unit. He will never really be accepted. The mother and child together is the basic unit. The AFC / Beta will contribute just as much as an actual parent of the spawn only to be one day told…

    “You can’t tell me what to do; you’re not even my real dad!”

  23. Kate and Case
    If you’re interested in why that is, read a book called ‘The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains’. It is a well written book that examines the results of a plethora of studies and what the results are for how humanity’s thought process has chamged with each new form of media. While not directly related to compassion, I’d be willing to wager quiet a bit that as our species loses its ability for deep thought in order to multitask quickly and take in/put out large quantities of shallow data quickly, that our ability for compassion has been reduced as well.

    After all, its harder to have a deep connection with others when everything in our society rewards quick and shallow thinking over the deep, lingering, and lasting thought.

  24. If you’re interested in why that is, read a book called ‘The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains’.

    Can I read it on the Internet?

  25. Only somewhat on topic, but I’ve actually done what James did, though we were much closer in age (he was 18 and I was 26-27 at the time). He was a college dropout, struggling with depression that his parents were about to kick out of their home (effectively leaving him homeless.) while his sister got a free pass for whatever she wanted to do. I took him in to my home, gave him a chance to get his head about him, taught him how to write a resume, job interview effectively, and gave him the chance that no one else would. Everyone thought I was insane for doing so. But not did he only end up going back to college, he graduated, got a solid job in the midst of a recession, and is now living in an apartment that he paid for himself. And even though we don’t talk much nowadays, I am immensely proud of him and remember our time together pretty fondly.

    And to this day, I’ve never heard of any other man doing something like this, taking another man that is more or less a complete stranger under his wing. It felt like I was the only one that ever did. I’m really happy that there are others that are doing the same.

    I would suggest to any single man that does not care for children or marriage (as myself) but still wants to make a positive difference in our country to consider doing the same at least once in their life. I’m not going to lie – it takes a tremendous amount of trust, time, and patience, but there’s no better way to spit in the face of a society that would rather watch its own men sink when they desperately need a life preserver.

  26. Kate and Leap … thanks for the thoughts. I hope we aren’t getting worse, may be though. Scary. Heard of that book, probably will check it out since you bring it up.

    Jeff, you have a point, but I think it is a point only to a point.

    I can’t improve on Nick Naylor, who you should really just watch for yourself, 7 seconds long:

    The problem with betareplacementdad#2 is most kids will clue in on the fact that other than for mom, this guy isn’t going to parachute oughta nowhere and suddenly go caring on them and all.

    The difference here is that James isn’t betareplacementdad#2 at all. He really came oughta nowhere and has no interest in this kid apart from the kid. I think that on a primal level that will count for something.

  27. “I think the eighties was the last decade for people to care about lost innocence.”

    How can we care about lost innocence when there isn’t any to loose?

  28. You are a great man Rollo. I want you to know that I’ve learned more about myself and the true nature of the world while reading your insight in 2 years than I have in 33 years slugging it out on my own. Lately I’ve been stuck at the stage where I am accepting these truths even though quite frankly, ‘it chips away’ at my soul. Thank you brother.

  29. First off, I want to commend the readership of this blog. I think everyone understands the importance of the theme of this post and I commend people on the quality of the comments.

    So here we are al, are of us “damaged” men, as we are referred to on Jezebel. If there is any one hope I would think that each of us would have, it would be for the next generation of boys, our sons to go through their life and not be damaged.

    Mostly that is what drives my “harpy” comments on avoiding marriage and the jeopardy of the LTR in avoiding marriage. For me, right now, given what I know, I can’t see any other way. To me, the lows and damage is so much lower and damaging than the highs and gains.

    And this act by this boy is so exemplary of the hypnotic effect of love on men to foolishly undertake actions not in their best interest, not by a long shot.

    When I read post after post on this blog, I say “Forget what I said about the other best entry on this blog before, that it was the most valuable entry. No, this entry here, this new one is the most valuable.” And then a few entries later, again “No, no, this one, this entry was most valuable”.

    Well I think I might have to start saying after future blogs, “No, no. I changed my mind. This blog today was the new second most valuable blog Rollo has ever written”

    Because whatever I or anyone says about what they would like to really see from Red Pill, more than any improvement in our own personal dealings with women, any avoidance of tragedy and pain in our own lives, ……

    More than anything else I would want my son not to fall trap, to avoid the pain, to not make deluded and foolish decisions,

    And so I proclaim forever and forever that

    This Rollo entry is the most valuable ever.

  30. “I took him in to my home, gave him a chance to get his head about him, taught him how to write a resume, job interview effectively, and gave him the chance that no one else would.”

    Bully, you are beyond awesome. This epitomizes what we need if we’re gonna turn this ship around.

    On behalf of men everywhere, I thank you.

    Compassion’s not dead yet.

  31. I gave my boys, advice, life skills (how to do laundry, make your own meals, etc) and a very long leash. One big rule, if asked, tell the truth. If I think that they are going astray, I watch and if and when they need a course correction, I offer, but in the end, they make their own decisions.

    Unfortunately Rollo, you can not interefere with this child, unless he asks. Just let him know that you are there for him if he needs direction. He may surprise you and come calling one day.

  32. If you’re interested in why that is, read a book called ‘The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains’.

    Can I read it on the Internet?

    It’s available at an *ahem* significant discount on bittorrent.

  33. Really good reading what Bully wrote.

    I had a similar experience this past summer, although not to the extent of what you did. I was offered an internship in Washington, DC. I had not money to pay for a place to live out there. Long story short, through craigslist I met a family in the Arlington, Virginia area that allowed me to stay with them for free while I interned. In exchange for room and board I worked around their house during my days off.

    During the summer I had a job interview in NYC. The dad gave me a suit to wear, even though I had my own. Not only that, he let me keep it. This was an Italian suit.

  34. I think that James’ refusal to accept the red pill is precisely because he is a lesser alpha. That is to say, he doesn’t need game, so he cannot see it for what it is. It’s like the naturals commenting on game blogs that it’s not necessary to jump through all the hoops and that you should “just be yourself.” Combine that with fem-centric white knight social conditioning and I think there is little chance he will ever really accept the red pill.

    As for Michael, well, James decided to meddle, and he did it as much for his own ego as for Michael’s welfare. Tough luck that it’s not working out the way he wants, but that’s life. Sometimes the best thing you can do to teach a kid is just to sit back and let them fail as badly and painfully as they will, so that they are ready to listen and think the next time you try to dispense advice.

  35. Thanks for the suggestion, Leap. That sounds really fascinating and would be good professional development for me when dealing with the “digital natives.”

  36. Case –

    I’m the father of two extremely great young men. One is 25 and the other is 20 years of age.

    For the better part of 15 years, I coached many young men, along with my own sons, in JFL Football and Little League Baseball. I witnessed the best and the worst of this social dynamic over this time period.

    I was the guy who sat with the son of the single mother for 45 min after practice waiting on her to show up drunk from “Happy Hour” to finally pick him up. I watched as the single mom’s would show up at the games bringing one man after another to “support” the child. I watched as betareplacementdad#2 tried his best to bond, interact and form some kind relationship with the child only to be publicly rejected or ridiculed. I witnessed very few betareplacementdad#2’s succeeding in spite of the feminine imperative.

    For me, it was a very satisfying period of my life and something I would never trade for anything in the world. However, there were far too many harsh “WOW” moments to be sure. I felt nothing but compassion for the boys but I knew my role.

    I have no doubt in my mind that James’s heart is the right place and is trying to “Do the right thing”. I find people such as him very honorable in their intentions. The problem is, he got attached and engaged in a false premise of a child’s obligation. I’ve seen it before.

    I agree with you, on a primal level it does count for something.

  37. michael needs to learn from experience that playing to the rules that he has been told will almost certainly lead to a lack of respect and a failed relationship, there’s a good chance he may not learn that after two or three more failed relationships playing by the same rules. things will either click in men’s brains or they won’t, i think that its a combination of a lot of things that will or will not lead to the circumstances for that to happen (although these could probably be broken down), but having the internet as a resource of condensed knowledge is probably the biggest factor in our favour.

  38. I’m starting to think Martel because again he beat me to the punch with a comment. I was going to recommend “The Last American Virgin.” This film, possibly more than any other, opened my eyes to how badly women can behave. I’d sort of always know it, but the movie puts it right in your face and does it in such a way that it’s like a left hook out of nowhere when you think you’re in a play-fight.

    That said, the reason so many guys have “one-itis” with high school and college women is because years ago these were the places you met someone you married. I don’t necessarily see this as a bad thing if you find a decent woman early on. I’d be curious to know the quality/personality of this kid’s girlfriend. I know couples who are still together from high school — it’s not unheard of.

  39. I’m surprised no one has commented that perhaps Michael is making a good decision in choosing not to go to college, if perhaps for the wrong reason. I absolutely love this blog because it is more a life philosophy than just about banging chicks – for me the red pill is all encompassing, and is not just about gender relations. Part of swallowing the red pill, for me and others such as captain capitalism, is that college is pretty much a waste of time and money and a joke. Maybe Michael truly does not want to go to college? Maybe he knows that going to college is a path to lifelong debt and no guarantee of a job? I would think that this is the route to getting through to Michael – supporting his decision to not to go to college, giving him a dose of red pill wisdom in regards to the brainwashing of all his peers in pursuing a college degree, and just straight out asking him what he likes to do (perhaps a trade – mechanic, plumber, etc.), and supporting him on that path. I was a straight A student and college was a breeze for me, and if I could talk to myself back then, I would’ve encouraged myself to do what I love to do, rather than following a path dictated by society – the money and success comes with following your passion, rather than following the rules.

  40. Arrows, glad you’ve seen it, too. It’s another forgotten Red Pill Classic that everyone should see. If I saw that movie as a 12 year-old, my life would have been entirely different.

    Part of what’s so effective about that movie is that Karen (Diane Frankliin) seems so incredibly sweet and nice, everything to make a guy think NAWALT. It’s also brilliant in how it sneaks a deep theme into a movie about getting drunk and chasing poon in high school. It follows the exact script any White Knight thinks should be followed, and I bet a younger guy with budding beta tendencies would identify with the main character heavily.

    Hollywood loves a good twist, but twists that mirror reality too much like in “Virgin” are streichlich verboten.

    There’s an 80’s song playing for just about the entire movie, but there are only like three songs out of about twenty-five that have gone down the memory hole. It’s like they somehow knew what early 80’s music was going to last, and that’s what they chose.

    The drunk driving scene could NEVER be made today.

    Of course, it’s also fun to watch Al Franken’s car getting destroyed, even if it’s only make-believe.

  41. I’m glad you all liked hearing about my experience – it’s one of the things that made me decide not to have children, because I’d rather invest my time and effort in helping those that need it now instead of creating new life that’s going to be the same. As it was, I did not actually seek out an opportunity to help someone – it wasn’t through some kind of organized Big Brother program. I met the kid online, found we had the same interests, and we just got to talking about things. It was something that more or less just happened, but if I met someone else in a similar position, I think I would jump to do it again.

  42. DoBA, Martel: I’ve never seen that movie. I read the plot on Wikipedia. Good on the filmmakers for not taking the easy way out and making a “good guy gets the girl in the end” movie.

    Real life is about tragedy, disappointment, loss, and that you don’t always get what you want.

  43. Reading this reminded me of my 18 year old self. I was pretty beta in high school. My senior year, I finally got the girl I’d been chasing, not by chasing her but by finally ignoring her. That summer, with college looming, we broke up – I’m pretty sure she dumped me though she recently remembered the opposite. In any case, my mindset at the time was, “So what? I’m going to college.” There was absolutely no plan in my mind to settle down with one woman. Where this newfound sense of freedom came from I do not know. It would be many years before I’d truly take the red pill, but it was an important first step.

  44. This is really interesting. So, the boy isn’t just not interested in college, it seems as if he isn’t interested in anything other than the young woman. This will end badly. My highschool boyfriend and I went to different colleges, but after our freshman year he had an inkling that I was dating other people and transferred to my school, essentially to keep an eye on me. That ended up being a bad move for him, but no one could have told him so at the time. I think it is the same with Michael; you cannot tell him anything right now while he is in the moment, Rollo, but you may be able to be a voice of reason to explain the situation after the inevitable happens to him. He may be more inclined to listen then.

  45. What is painful is seeing males READY to sacrafice their life to accomadate their girl friend. Unfortunately I was once about to make the same decision, so I can understand the (lack) of rationilzation about ‘oh, this will be so perfect’.

    It is hard to capture in words just how bad this is for a male to ever do. I see my friends doing these things, giving up ESTABLISHED lives here to go be with a girl across the country. I know in a few years they will be seperate, or maybe they will luck out and be unhappily married.

    Never make your life second to a girl.

  46. Mary may be onto something. One variation of the blue pill is a complement to NAWATL, that being I AM THE EXCEPTION. Maybe the fairy tales aren’t true for the rest of you, but they are for me. Perhaps giving everything up for a girl isn’t a good idea for any of you, but WE have something SPECIAL that transcends the silly little rules that hold the rest of you down.

    I know because that’s been me.

  47. The main problem is that I’m not Michael’s mentor, James is. For the most part James wants to basically sweep my perspective under the rug and chalk Michaels indecisiveness up to being just some phase he’s in.

    On several occasions James has outright said “did any of us really know what we wanted to do right out of high school?” but it’s like say ‘Just Be Yourself’ – something people say when they don’t know what the hell else to say. Then I try to drive home that it’s Michael’s being a plugged in chump is the reason for most of his frustration and it’s “well, he’s in love, or he thinks he is, and how do you tell him he’s not? who knows? sometimes high school sweethearts stay together their whole lives, I know it’s doubtful, but you never know.”

    It’s really not so much a point of getting through to the kid, but making the old man see the light and laying it on Michael.

  48. Even my most “Alpha” of friends are now getting married. I watch as they crumble in “love” with their nubile princesses, however notice a starkly profound change in their outlook on life – for the better.

    Maybe it simply is necessary for some men to believe in love, marriage, and endure the hardships that come with what known failure lies ahead. I say that because these men are the one’s who were fucking your mom, banging your girlfriend, and fucking your ex. Though, now they have “seen the light”, can quote the Bible verbatim, and have beautiful wives.

    Point being, nothing’s going to change. And I’d say it’s far easier to be a Blue Pill man than a Red Pill Executive – simply because it’s a more positive illusion to confess dispelling any notion of alternatives to.

    In fact, I would say Rollo (as far as I can tell), married & raising a daughter, is the exemplary Blue Pill man. How could one who is happily married – likely due to his positive, natural characteristics – claim another who has been happily married & burned multiple times is any less of an “Alpha”? It’s not as if he chose or desired for his prior marriages to collapse. Likely the women played that role being the pure Red Pill incarnate they mostly are, in due relation to his natural tendency to “do the right thing”, or be a “good person”. No offense. Certainly a man will learn what a man can.

    Though, one has to ask, if Rollo’s wife were to cheat on him, wouldn’t all this conjecture and introspection become null, void, and obsolete? Or would she in turn become another case example of the modern woman gone wrong? Just speculating.

    So he’s happily married at 56 to a woman of equal caliber. Good job. And a young kid fucking a young girl he wants to be with is doing what he thinks he should do. Good for him. No point in telling these people they are wrong for what they believe, as they aren’t trying to shove their brand of Christ down your throat…at least, not yet. If they wanted help or a different brand of understanding, I’m sure they’d endeavor to acquire it. Eh, whose opined care’s worthwhile anyhow?

  49. The old man has probably seen the light, and knows the darkness that comes with absolving one’s entire belief-system to accept it’s overshadowing premise. It’s like asking a Rabbi to convert to Christianity. Either they will, or they won’t; or they will adapt to accepting it partially, though fundamentally will remain the same. You can’t save an unborn child from drowning. Nor prevent a ghost from haunting – relative to those who are apt to fear specters.

  50. In my experience, some of the blue pill’s biggest defenders are also its biggest winners…especially alphas and unscrupulous women. In a way, natural alpha is a bit of a curse…it can help prevent an otherwise intelligent man from seeing and really dealing with relationship issues until it’s too late.

  51. The mass murderer (Adam Lanza) apparently targeted his mother, but stopped off first to kill her husband, Lanza’s step-father, who lived in a pretty swank house.

    We are guaranteed to hear every single detail about this shooter’s means of access to firearms (inanimate objects), but virtually nothing about the reason for his rage directed at his mother.

    My guess is has something to do with a mother’s no-fault divorce and her remarriage to a more wealthy replacement-dad, and the trauma that causes to young boys.

  52. Ultimately, the responsibility falls with the shooter; nothing excuses that crap.

    But the stuff Phinn describes is a hell of a lot closer to being a “root cause” than access to firearms.

  53. Bully’s posts will cause me to expand my bucket list re: trying to get through to one young man after my own sons are properly red pilled. Minter’s endorsement sealed the deal. I think most of us older guys now know what might really be of contribution to the young guys coming up. But there may be too many of them to save.

  54. “In fact, I would say Rollo (as far as I can tell), married & raising a daughter, is the exemplary Blue Pill man”

    But you have to be alpha as fuck to achieve that today.

    The only person that can achieve the great Blue Pill ideal of great marriage and kids and actually be happy is a red pill alpha that has the ability not to need it.

  55. Senior Beta: There are too many to save, no question about it. We’ll just try to save what we can.

    First hope is trying to get someone to swallow the pill. Sometimes, it simply won’t happen. Ultimately, it’s a choice they have to make. You can lead a horse to water blah blah blah.

    The second group to save, and those I’m more worried about, are those who swallow the Pill, but after going through the inevitable challenges and dry spells they “spit it back up.” There’s a transition period when you’ve given up on what you believed before, but you’re not yet reaping the benefits of your new outlook. Approaching but getting rejected, turning down LJBF’s but not getting laid, fighting your friends who don’t want you to change, mom wondering what the hell’s happened to you but not really respecting you yet. It’s a vulnerable time. I’ve no idea how many dudes regress during this period, but I’m sure it’s a lot.

    A lot of masculine instincts are great, and we explore those here. There are others we need to hone. First, we don’t like to ask for help or even admit we need it. Second, sometimes we don’t like to give it. If you see some guy buy a drink for a girl and she ditches him, we’re likely to laugh. That’s one less dude who might steal our woman. That dumbass is doing his squats all wrong. His problem, not mine.

    Part of the reason we have the second instinct is that we know about the first. Why should I correct his form when he’s just going to ignore it?

    That’s why I think we need to focus on new Red Pillers. They’ve just recently admitted that they’ve been morons for their entire lives up until recently, so they don’t have as much pride in the way. The sooner they reap Red Pill benefits, the more likely they’ll stay that in our camp (of course, there are dangers later on, the first quality LTR, etc.)

    Too many of us have no role models. So far, I don’t have as much to offer as I’d like (in some ways I’m still pretty clueless). But at least I sort of know what’s what, I can be very persuasive, and if I see the chance to help somebody, I’m taking it (even though I could use quite a bit myself).

  56. “There’s a transition period when you’ve given up on what you believed before, but you’re not yet reaping the benefits of your new outlook. Approaching but getting rejected, turning down LJBF’s but not getting laid, fighting your friends who don’t want you to change, mom wondering what the hell’s happened to you but not really respecting you yet. It’s a vulnerable time. I’ve no idea how many dudes regress during this period, but I’m sure it’s a lot.”

    This is it right here. Guys from blue to red but sometimes can’t get anything out of it. A guy getting dumped could take him a while to get over and even after he has, he still has to face the rejection all other guys face. It’s discouraging. And yes, he also has to go through those times where gets no women. That could take months or even years. It’s a long time to wait and it gets more frustrating the more you wait.

    I hate to bring this up but I don’t know what else to say. Women can get regular sex just because. If the same’s to happen for a man, he’s gonna have to either be extremely lucky, good-looking, famous or have money of some kind. Otherwise, a man’s bound to go through a cold streak here and there.

  57. Furious Ferret
    The only person that can achieve the great Blue Pill ideal of great marriage and kids and actually be happy is a red pill alpha that has the ability not to need it.

    Maybe. I live in a demographic where divorce is rare. You can minimize your risk as follows:
    1. Get a college degree.
    2. Don’t marry young. Peak age for divorce for women is around 30, so don’t get married when she’s 23. Yes, you’ll be marrying a woman with some miles on the clock but she won’t be wondering what she missed out on when she’s 30.
    3. There are two kinds of women. Women who define themselves in terms of their attractiveness to men and women who define themselves some other way. Marry a women in the second group. Unfortunately women in the second group tend to be less attractive than women in the first but there are outliers.
    4. Marry someone you like for reasons other than her appearance or performance in the sack.
    5. Strive to earn in the top 10%. Top 5% is better.
    6. Don’t get sick, don’t get fired, find a way to maintain some kind of masculine dominance even if only in a small way – sports, hobbies, etc.
    7. Try to influence your wife’s work and social activities to minimize her exposure to a bigger, better deal.

    This approach boils down to minimizing her desire and options to trade up until she ages out of that possibility. This all sucks in many ways but it is what it is.

  58. I object to the notion that married men must thereby be Blue Pill / beta or any such. For example, remember that the definition of Alpha does NOT include ‘actively bangs multiple women’, only that the Alpha HAS THAT OPTION.

    Furthermore, the dynamics and nature of relations within the marriage are not necessarily determined by the fact of being married. Simple empirical observation will confirm this: Some men are clearly behaving in a thoroughly Alpha manner in their marriage, and most others, less so.

    As to the possible assertion that the decision to marry at all subtracts any degree of Alphaness, that also is not necessarily true. For a man, marriage is certainly a risk of disaster, but it is not a certainty; the risk can be reduced but not eliminated. A completely Red-pill man who marries is knowingly taking a risk. But is it not a common male characteristic to take risks for worthwhile things?

    What is ‘worthwhile’? Each person has his own definition. Here’s a simple example: happiness. If a man is genuinely happy in his marriage, and that state persists for the rest of his life (with the unavoidable amount of typical trouble that is inevitable in a long life), then what does he care if the world thinks he’s Alpha or not? Of course, a good case is being made these days that the more Alpha he is, or learns to be, the greater his chances of happiness — married or not.

    I also notice from reading many blogs that there are a certain number of men who seriously want to have children; I am guessing that many of these men consider having and raising fine children to be even more worthwhile than their own personal happiness. That particular value can also coexist with thorough Alphaness, properly understood, and again, learning to be more Alpha can only help men with such values.

  59. Rollo,

    This big news story right that is consuming everything. You ignore it. Post nothing, no analysis. No nothing. Let it go. Post something else that makes no reference to it what so ever. Do not attempt to wade in.

  60. My old friend, Rob , got job in construction right after high school so he could support his girlfriend Lisa. He was smart, hardworking and had some natural leadership attributes so within a year he was doing pretty well, for someone that age.

    He paid the rent, bought all the food and eventually found a house that was one of those “Unique Fixer Upper Opportunities ! ” and fix it up he did. All this while he scrounged every spare penny to help Lisa with books and tuition.

    Lisa was a full time student who would occasionally take a job, like waiting tables during the summer, or working events when her “busy” student schedule allowed.

    Most of you probably know how this story will end, but let me say, for my part, at the time, seeing them together made me envious. They looked happy. They looked like two people in love, like they were made for each other. You would not have sensed anything predatory or parasitic.

    They married in the summer following Lisa’s sophomore year.

    About a month before Lisa graduated with her 4 year degree, Rob found out she was cheating.

    Less then 3 months after graduation She had divorced him. The courts awarded her his house and his car, which she had never spent a penny on.

    Rob couldn’t reconcile all of this, he couldn’t allow himself to believe that this is the way women are. He kept wondering what he had done wrong, what detail he had missed, what line he had crossed. He replayed every little fight, every disagreement on an alcohol induced continuous loop for months.

    I wont go into the long details here, but one night after he passed out, I took his guns from the shitty efficiency apartment he had been relegated to.

    A few months later when he had regained some perspective , I gave them back. But I don’t think he ever stopped blaming himself.

    That Christmas , sitting around a large table with my extended family, my then 6 year old niece asked me,
    ” Uncle Simon , why don’t you get married and have kids ?”
    ” Heh , because I’m smart. ”
    ” But Mom is smart , and she’s married and has 3 kids. ”
    I started to respond but was quickly hushed by the adult females in the room. They probably assumed I was about to call my sister stupid. The response that I never got to say was ” What is smart for women isn’t necessarily smart for men. ”

    Rob became focused on rebuilding his life eventually starting his own construction company. He’s locally known as a contractor with integrity and that is as it should be.

    Last I heard he was shacking up with a single mom.

    I kinda regret giving him his guns back.

  61. Rollo,

    As you’re experiencing, it’s impossible to “get through” to someone intent on holding onto their perspective. Usually men take the “Red Pill” only after life kicks them in the nuts.

    Instead of trying to convince Michael or James of your perspective maybe you should just predict the outcome, i.e. Michael is going all in on his girl precisely when she is reaching her peak sexuality. She like most girls raised in this era will likely trade up when she reaches college and see more ambitious/attractive/alpha men. She will almost certainly leave Michael crushed due to his misunderstanding of female nature and his own dereliction in achieving for himself. His mistake is one of over investment and a naive concept of love.

    Men and women have timeless roles, duties and expectations that, although obfuscated by modern sensibilities, no doubt will come to bear in this relationship. She may currently be charmed by his assistance and dependance but will quickly ditch him upon reaching a bigger pond. Predict it, explain why and, to the extent possible, prepare both of them on how to rebuild with a proper understanding of the playing field.

  62. First of all, if the goal is to help James, let me point out, Rollo, that you’ve already done that. You said your piece, he can consider it at leisure, now leave it alone and don’t mention it again. Honestly, that might be the wisest course.

    If the goal is to fix things for Michael, I think the key is not the guys but the girl. The conventional solution might be for James to invite her and her parents to dinner and see what comes up. Grandiose plans could look pretty ridiculous in the cold light of day. The girl probably gets cold feet. Or maybe everyone realizes these crazy kids should marry. Whatever. Remind James that Mike is grown now, so his job is mostly done.

    Finally, the deep red pill solution is for Rollo to take one for the team, seduce the girl, flaunt it, and so ensure Mike’s heart is properly broken and the rest of his life can proceed as planned.

  63. I think this is an important topic, and a well-written and accurate breakdown, good stuff Rollo.

    A lot of PUAs actually hope we don’t HAVE to teach our kid any of this shit, that we can simply lead by example as they grow up and naturally pick up how social dynamics work. This road was hard as fuck, I wish people didn’t have to go down it, but this is like a transitional generation with the Internet and The Game and the Manosphere and everything…it was either consciously study this or be oblivious. Hopefully as red-pill dialog spreads, future generations are able to avoid a lot of the shit the MGTOW types (the ones who turned to MGTOW after being burned, at least) went through because the social brainwashing of feminism doesn’t hold up as well when men can communicate with eachother over the net and compare notes and go “wow what they’re telling us doesn’t jive with ANY of our experiences, maybe I should question it.”

    To me, it’s sad that PUA is still shit on so much (it’s partly the PUA industry’s fault, don’t get me wrong lol) because videos like this, reworded a bit to leave out the pickup angle and focus on the relationship angle, might really help a situation like this:

    They approach the idea of being on your path from the angle of “keep growing and being high value as a man because once you stop giving a shit about yourself your girl is going to look for someone worth her time.” which, while arguably a supplicative notion (improving yourself to get validation from pussy instead of for yourself as a man), is a decent way to get the idea into the head of an 18yo with one-itis who’s young dumb and full of cum.

    I would probably approach it like “look I know you want to wait for your girl and that’s cool, but how long do you think she’s going to stay with a guy who’s decided she isn’t worth trying to better himself and become a good provider who she can respect and look up to as a man? Do you think she’s going to come home from her college class to see you sitting on the couch playing x-box and think “this is the man I want to build a lasting future with”? Or do you think she’d rather see you handling your shit and showing her that she can trust you to take care of her when she needs it?”

    Yes, this is putting “pussy on a pedestal” and yes, it could still all blow up in the kid’s face down the road for a ton of reasons that relationships don’t work out, but right now the kid has pedestalized securing a steady source of sex/love, so approaching it from that angle might resonate with him better than old angry guys telling him how their wives screwed them over (he’ll just think their wives were evil sluts and those men were stupider than him, it’s human nature).

    I mean, even if the kid DOES stall his college life for a year to wait for her AND moves to where she goes to college, fuck it that’s not a big deal, lots of people take a year or so off before they start college and lots of people move to random cities to start their life up, those aren’t fatal situations even if she ditched him once he moved there and put school off for a year.

    The important thing is getting into his head “ya, go ahead and wait for her before you start your journey, BUT when you get to wherever you two end up, make sure you START your journey and become a man she can be proud to be with.”

    Down the road he can learn about the red-pill the same way most guys do…but at least he’ll be on a path to a decent life instead of wasting 5 years playing Xbox lol

  64. Oop only one of the videos showed up, both have a similar message relevant to this situ though so check em out.

    Also as much as the Dane Cook flick My Best Friend’s Girl takes a gay Hollywood turn at the end, there’s a good quote in it by Alec Baldwin (Cook’s dad in the flick): “See I always knew your mom was the best it was ever going to get for me. And I never asked the more important question which is, was I the best it was ever going to get for her?”

    Could be worth a watch for the kid and his gf since its a recent rom-com, and they repeat that line a couple times in it. Might get him thinking.

  65. @YaYeally: “The important thing is getting into his head “ya, go ahead and wait for her before you start your journey, BUT when you get to wherever you two end up, make sure you START your journey and become a man she can be proud to be with.”

    That’s some great advice, though a lot of us are thick-headed and need to learn the hard way; takes some people numerous times.

    I would share my experience as a young man who lived quite successfully (until the end I initiated) with a young girl from 18 – 21, but it would take too long. Chances are it won’t last, but it can offer some of the greatest learning experiences in a young mans life. For me, I feel like I was married for 3 years, divorced, and got that level of commitment out of my system – and learned what it truly meant to be in a reciprocal relationship, and at one point tell-tale signs or intuition is reactively accurate vs. paranoid conjecture. I learned so much about relationships during those three years. Maybe this kid will have an even better experience. I am grateful I had the courage to both dive right in, and the strength to jump ship when my dignity was at stake, and when my life & the relationship became stagnant. When we both were growing, and growing apart with no rekindling in sight. It’s hard to leave your first “true love” but I now know, after countless experiences, it’s only men that love in a way they need to learn not to.

    As, regardless of age, the stories are all too familiar:

    An older friend of mine (27m with 23f ex) recently was broken up with. I had predicted and expressed my concern to him (via red pill knowledge and prior experience) regarding the eminent & eventual fallout of his 3 year relationship; they lived at his parents house. Explaining to him during/after the relationship what was happening when he asked, and getting him back on his feet after my predictions, observations, and warnings were right: she was cheating on him, and gave him a year to get his act together, but he continued to sit at home all day “waiting for her to get home from work,” because he didn’t feel “comfortable” until she was sleeping, because that way he knew what she was doing and that she was safe.

    I watched as she began to have “side-jobs” more often, would work later hours, began getting jobs further and further away from his house (he’s a neighbor of mine), and would watch as he grew increasingly nervous and when asked where she was, he’d respond with a statement intoned or in the rising pitch of a question. Near the end, he didn’t know where she was or what she was doing, ever.

    She came to me for advice a year before she began cheating, and I got my friend to get back into doing some of his work. She explained she was packed up secretly at the time and had been saving up to move out, but thankfully I subtly got him excited about his trade, and they were apparently happy again. She wasn’t cheating at that time.

    Fast forward a year and she’s working hard, apprenticeship and waiting tables and work on the side. The more she works, the more I know she’s avoiding seeing her (in her words) “lazy loser” of a boyfriend, and progressively as she worked more and he grew more paranoid, she began to cheat until she could no longer take it and found an alternative.

    He told me she came home one night, when he confronted her about what the fuck was going on, that she literally had fresh cum on her pants and shirt as she tried to seduce him away from questioning her. Then she broke up with him. Left 3 years of a life they had began to build together, when he was nearly a month away from asking her to marry him and to find a place to live together. Because it wasn’t until she grew careless during the final week of their relationship that it was blatantly obvious she was cheating.

    She left him with 3 grand worth of silver (I think as a consolation prize), and him doing the “nice” thing gave it back to her. Gave her what she intentionally left him, because she specifically took a shit ton of other stuff that was hers. But, he’s a good person, does the right thing, and made sure she got all of her stuff.

    But this is a prime example of how women are. Almost if not all of them. Not yet have I met a man who hasn’t encountered this sort of experience personally or via a friend. I’d argue, if not personally, then soon enough, unfortunately.

    Thing is, I relate the above because the one thing that would have prevented this from happening, is literally if my friend had done ANYTHING besides sit in his room smoking weed waiting for her to get home. Which she put up with happily for 2 years before complaining to me about it.

    Apologize for the length. Great post. And awesome comments too.

  66. @ Case
    December 13th, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    I’d have to differ to some extent. My uncle married a widow with two children and had three more sons with her. I never saw any evidence of anything less than the usual sibling relations and the eldest (of her children) gave an excellent eulogy at his funeral. Now admittedly she outlived him so there was never the situation where he had to impose his will without her support… but I got the impression they were truly thankful for being treated as his children and raised that way. Having a life in the church makes all the difference.

  67. He will be most susceptible right after he is dumped he will not question the truth until he has no hope and no where else to turn. If she ends up different and they enjoy a happy life together let the heavens rejoice but if not be there to win hearts and minds and possible save a life. Full him once shame on him full him twice he’s a moron.

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